Trevin Wax, a rising voice in the SBC, is a brother in Christ and has been helpful to me as of late as I learn the ropes of potentially publishing a book. Further showing his unselfish character, he was gracious enough to allow me to ask him a few questions about the SBC without hesitation.
His blog, Kingdom People, is one of the most read Christian blogs on the internet today and his book, Holy Subversion, has been acclaimed by J.I. Packer, Al Mohler, Ed Stetzer, and Russell Moore.
I first interviewed him on my blog and it was a great blessing and I pray that this will be for the SBC Voices readers, as well.
BRANDON: In your opinion, what is the current state of the SBC?
TREVIN: The Southern Baptist Convention actually only exists two days a year during our annual meeting. So in that sense, the state of the Convention varies from year to year. The real question behind this question, I’m guessing, is what is the current state of the Southern Baptist churches? And that is difficult to answer because of the great diversity of Southern Baptist churches. Our diversity makes it nearly impossible to paint with a broad brush and say, “This is the current state of Southern Baptist churches.” Numbers tell one part of the story, and they aren’t encouraging. But even then, there are many great churches doing great things for the kingdom.
The diversity that characterizes Southern Baptists presents both an advantage and a challenge. The advantage is that we are beginning to realize that we cannot build our cooperation upon programs or specific methods of doing church. If methods are what unite us, then the diversity of Southern Baptist churches would become an almost insurmountable obstacle to fulfilling the Great Commission together. Instead, our diversity has forced us to unite around the basics of our faith, expressed in our confessional consensus, the Baptist Faith and Message. The challenge of our diversity is keeping that confessional statement at the forefront of our thinking when it comes to the future. The BF&M is not a creed that churches are forced to accept, but by using it as the consensus of the majority of churches, it has been helpful in steering our discussions away from issues or differences that would cause us to splinter into various groups.
B: What unique strength does new SBC president Bryant Wright bring to the convention?
T: I don’t know very much about Bryant Wright. I met him briefly at the LifeWay book signing (we were signing books at the same time). I supported Ted Traylor because of a personal connection back from my days in Romania and because of his missionary activities and his church’s support of the Cooperative Program. Nevertheless, I was happy to know that all four candidates for SBC president this year were good men who would have served our churches well.
What I like most about Bryant Wright is that his church has been at the forefront of the short-term missions movement, which I think is a positive development in recent years. Mission trips almost always lead to more global-mindedness on the part of a congregation, as well as missional thinking in our own neighborhoods.
B: Ten years from now, what will Johnny Hunt be most remembered for?
T: We’re much too close to the events to be able to make predictions as to how historians will think of Johnny Hunt’s presidency. Still, I think we will look back and be grateful for the way God used Pastor Johnny to bridge the divide between the older and younger generations of the SBC. Before Hunt became president, the Southern Baptist conversation was degenerating into a sniping war between Calvinists and non-Calvinists, contemporary versus traditional, and old guard versus young guard. Hunt elevated the conversation, refocused our attention on the Great Commission, built bridges between warring camps, and brought along the younger generation. That is no small feat for a president whose term is two years.
B: For you, what was the highlight of the SBC 2010 Pastor’s Conference?
T: CJ Mahaney. His message was a word of encouragement to weary pastors, and God used him to strengthen our resolve and remind us of the great calling we have as shepherds of God’s church. That said, the whole conference was terrific. Kevin Ezell did an outstanding job bringing old and new faces together. It was obvious that that Conference intended to appeal to a younger generation, which by looking at the diversity of ages in the crowd, it certainly did.
B: What is the greatest advantage of being affiliated with the SBC?
T: I don’t say this out of pride but out of gratitude. We really do have the greatest missions force in the world. The International Mission Board does great things, and it is a privilege to cooperate with other churches to fund these missionaries. Southern Baptists do a lot of good things together, but it’s our common cause in fulfilling the Great Commission that is most exciting to me.
I was encouraged by the debate about the GCR. In that Convention hall full of people – many who passionately disagreed with each other – the passion for best stewarding the resources we have in order to fulfill the Great Commission was palpable. Though not everyone was united around the recommendations of the Task Force, it seemed that everyone had the Great Commission in mind. And that is something unique to our Convention when so many denominations are wrestling over issues related to Scripture, homosexuality, etc.
Also: See Trevin’s Christianity Today article on the GCR.
Just as a clarification, Brandon. I’m plenty selfish, though praying to be less so every day!
Great observations. I don’t know Trevin, but he seems like a smart, level headed person.
All, I suppose Matt or Tony decided to close the comment section on the Patterson/Beck post and I knew that would happen eventually. One of the greatest things about SBC Voices is Matt’s fairness in allowing people to speak and the fact that all views are represented on this blog. What a boring place this would be if everyone agreed all the time! That said, we have to be able to debate and discuss without all the sinful, arrogant nonsense that keeps creeping in. Insults are not welcome in the Kingdom between brothers and sisters in Christ. It saddens and… Read more »
I did it, Brandon, because the comments had run amok so badly. That seems to happen on blogs. You wrote a good post and then it went off in a direction it should not have gone.
I wrote Matt, and if he decides to re-open the comment stream, that is his decision as the blog administrator.
The fact that comments had to be closed on two of your posts has nothing to do with the quality of your posts.
I would encourage people not to bring that ugliness to this post.
I think Trevin has made some great observations in the interview. Particularly his comment about Bryan Wright’s church having such a strong presence in short term missions. That is certainly something all churches ought to seek to be more involed in.
“I would encourage people not to bring that ugliness to this post.”
Then why do you continue to allow Joe to post on this site at all?
This post is well worth commenting on. But we will not allow the last thread to spill over here.
Serves me right for calling for moderation in the last thread. 😉
No problem, Bill.
I’ll be lower case bill and you be upper case Bill to avoid all confusion that people may have with you and I posting here.
:)))))
I think it’s extremely funny in an ironic way that Fox constantly appeals to books as his authority…But THE BOOK is not his authority. lol. Fox, I could read every book that you’ve mentioned and still know the truth of the CR…that it was very much needed and had to happen. AND, that God blessed the CR and used it to turn the SBC back to the Bible and the Gospel. So, you can mention everyone’s book in the liberal’s hall of fame library that you want to, but it’s not gonna change anyone’s mind who knows better, who was… Read more »
I think you are a bigger joke than I am, Double Knot. I hold the Book high, my problem is with folks like you who Miss the point on some of its major teachings; like if you had been in Earl Stallings place in 63 in Birmingham, would you have been more likeJimmy Allen, or morelike Ed McAteer and JesseHelms and Pressler’s Texas Regulars. That is where books like Chandler Davidson on Criswell may give us some insight into the inadequacies of the way you use The Book, or missed the point of some of its great witness. I never… Read more »
Sly Fox, The point is we do not need to read a book that tells us how bad they think we are mistreating the Bible. I am educated too. Your not the only one. We get your position, and we reject your position. This is why we don’t need some group read that promotes your agenda. We know your agenda, and we reject it. I am not a fan of Patterson or Pressler BTW so I don’t drink their political kool-aide.
Fox,
What Jeff said. We dont need some book written by some liberal, who hates the CR and conservatives and the SBC to rewrite history in their perspective. As Jeff said, we understand exactly what you’re saying, and what all the books that you mention say, and we REJECT it. We look upon it as trash…nonsense…and a weak, feeble attempt at trying to discredit the CR which took place.
So, we absolutely reject your viewpoint….and no amount of books written by liberals and moderates is gonna change that.
David
The names liberal and moderate are way over used. The definition keeps changing, and now it’s used more as attack words than actual fact. Learn to listen David. It might serve you well. It seems you guys are yelling just to be yelling, like the man who puts his fingers in his ears and yells so he can’t hear. Listen David.
So Debbie, how did it go when you presented the gospel to MoKahn? Was he receptive? Oh, that’s right, you never did. I forgot.
Joe: My private conversations with Mohammad are just that private. Bugs you though doesn’t it. 🙂
Debbie:
Share this with Mohammad and if it gains any traction, and you blog about his thought on this link, please let us know here cause I think it is one many of us will want to consider.
Thanks:
http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=8602
I’m going to ask you good folks to just stop, now. Enough is enough. What more can any of you say to insult the other side than you have already said? Enough is enough.
I am going to ask everyone to just lay down the weapons. Move on. Hopefully, there will be another post soon.
Sorry, David,
I entered my comment before I saw the ‘stop’ request.
My conscience was moved to support Debbie in this matter, as a response to Joe Blackmon.
I will stop.
Thank you, Christiane.
I think it is an appropriate time to “borrow” a quote from a great American, Top Cowboy, King of the NRA, chariot driver and the world’s best Moses imitator, Charleton Heston:
“You can have my ‘CR’ when you can pry it out of my cold, dead hands.”
I KNOW that everytime Debbie interacted with Mr. Khan is a way that honored truth, she witnessed to her faith. Mr. Khan saw a man who was deceiving people and pointed this out. The deceptions are openly obvious and are recorded in the man’s own actions and words on film. Was that man witnessing to Mr. Khan or to anyone about Our Lord, when he was ‘mis-speaking’ for nine years? No, he wasnt’. Mr. Khan will not forget the Christian woman who recognized that what is true should not be twisted and distorted in the Name of Christ. That is… Read more »
Christiane:
That is a great point and endorses the sentiment Bill Friday of the UNC System expressed to Cecil Sherman about Helms and Pressler’s disastrous vision for SEBTS and the damage it did to the State of North Carolina.
Deception is anathema to Christ, even if it comes in the guise of what Paige Patterson called “the inerrancy thing.”
“Learn to listen David. It might serve you well. It seems you guys are yelling just to be yelling, like the man who puts his fingers in his ears and yells so he can’t hear. Listen David.” With all due respect Debbie, this is what practically everyone on this comment thread is doing, on both sides. Brandon and David both called for civility and addressing the the topic at hand, not a rehash of the same old garbage. Those requests have been ignored. They are owed an apology. In so far as I have contributed to this madness, I offer… Read more »
Thanks, Bill!
I had noticed that among some of the gentlemen who comment . . . almost as though they have forgotten that, with all that ‘yelling’, no one, least of all themselves, can hear the ‘still quiet Voice of the Lord’.
I think a lot of the ‘yelling’ must be a kind of ‘sport’.
But it is not a Christian witness.
Well let’s just throw out all the books. That would include the ones written by those ministers you would agree with. Books are not evil for crying out loud. If that were the case let’s just not read any books. Ridiculous. Next argument and this time make it have some substance.
Don’t you guys have something better to do with your time that hurl insults at each other? Debbie, and everyone else, unless you have something new and productive to say, why not just let it go? Why keep hashing out the same angry arguments over and over?
Let it drop.
Yeah Dave you are right, I was pretty rough.
I’m confused, “exactly what position did Jesse Helms hold in the SBC during the CR?” I can’t speak for everyone in the CR — that’s Fox’s job — but speaking for myself, I’m no fan of Jesse Helms. Just wanted to wipe that mud off from what Fox is slinging around. You also mention the OT a couple of times in what seems to me a negative light. Are you saying that the OT is somehow flawed and we should not “memorize” any passages from it? I did have a few professors during the liberal years of the SBC that… Read more »
SSBN, AGain you misunderstood. If you really want to know about Jesse Helms and the SBC at key moments in Takeover Strategy you would find a copy of Joe Ferguson’s political memoir of Helms and his chapter The REd White and Blue Bible about the enormous number of zealots in Helms network in key positions in the Takeover. If you just want to straw men my revelations, I guess there isn’t much I can do about that. I have memorized lots of the Old Testament myself, and appreciate what the critic James Wood did with David in his short but… Read more »
QUOTE My problem with several on this board is they seem to want to rush backward to Leviticus codes rather than basque in Life and Teachings of Jesus. END QUOTE Could you point out the post that several on this board made in regard to Leviticus. I’m sorry I must have missed it. QUOTE You may not be aware of Helms history with Romero. END QUOTE. I’m not sure if you missed my question or just don’t want to answer. You suggested that Jesse Helms in some way was part of the “conspiracy” to “wrench” the SBC from a group… Read more »
I guess you SSBN coveniently missed the reference I made to Joe Ferguson’s book. It is there, it is unequivcal; it is a matter of the historical record whether it registered with you or not. Just because you didn’t want to know about it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen; just like about the other 8 of the ten and more books of the BX 6400 shelf you didn’t have the time or inclination to look at. But if you sleep well at night and want to go on like you know what the last 40 years in SBC life were… Read more »
You are such a bitter old man. I don’t sleep well at night, but it isn’t because I disagree with you. It is because my heart is heavy most of the time for people that are going through great difficulty. Sometimes I am restless at night and get up to spend time in prayer for those on my heart. But, I can assure you I am not restless because you throw “poop” at me like a monkey in a cage. Just to set the record straight: I read an article you linked and it was completely useless because of an… Read more »
I hope you liked Jr. High. You must have cause that seems to be about your station when it comes to the Truth about the SBC Takeover and the Helms role in it.
It’s there in the Furgurson Book, Hard Right, the Rise of Jesse Helms just in case in the future you want to add some knowledge to your passionate opinions about what was at stake in the SBC takeover.
It’s amazing. Even when someone agrees with them you still throw “poop” at them!
Oh, that was directed at Mr. Fox in regard to the url he posted.
Not that it really matters, but I did not become a crusader for the CR until a moderate DOM tried to steal the church property where I was pastoring — which was only a few years ago. Even when Daniel Vestal came after me in the early 90’s and prevented me from being called as the pastor of church he once pastored (because I was a SWBTS student at the time), I just moved on. In post after post, Mr. Fox keeps trying to prove he knows more about the CR than I do. He argues his point with venom… Read more »
SSBN, I sorta agree with you in some ways. I went to SWBTS in the late 80’s and early 90’s. I was a supporter of Dr. Dilday. In fact at this moment, I am not a fan of Patterson, Pressler, and Moran. Yet, the more I read from Sly Fox, Terrific Tom, Do Right Debbie, Wonderful Wade, Big Daddy Hair Weave, the more I rejoice in the CR. The more I am convinced it was needed. This is why I don’t need to read the links provided, I am witnessing first hand why the CR was needed. Sleeping Good Night… Read more »
Big Daddy Hair Weave . . . I think even he will laugh at that 🙂
Fox,
Who cares what Ferguson said? I mean, really…who cares? I lose no sleep at night about the CR, or the SBC Takeover, or whatever else you want to call it. I thank God for it. I praise God for it.
So, go join the CBF, or the American Baptist, or the PCUSA, or the Episcopalians, or somewhere else where you fit in.
David
How many did yall have in Sunday School last Sunday, VolFan?
52, 41; How Many?
I guess what you are trying to say SSBN is you just don’t know a heckuva a whole lot about much.
That’s okay; you’re not the only one who doesn’t let that stop them on this board.
So you’re in the majority, just like the fundamentalists by half a percent in San Antonio in 88
See my tiny url on down the line here that will take you straight to the heart of the matter; also see roughly 408 on hearts and minds of young Baptist preachers.
Sly Fox, I could care less about Jesse Helms, he is not a trump card to show how evil the CR movement was/is. I am thankful that the SBC is moving in the right direction which is doctrinal purity, missional living, evangelism, and fellowship built around Jesus Christ as revealed in the Holy Scriptures by the Holy Spirit.
I’m not sure the Holy Spirit has a lot to do with anything with Ronnie Floyd at the Center of it; but if two percent is what floats your boat, then float it high in the water.
This is in reply to JeffT
I am not a fan of Ronnie Floyd. Yet, I am not willing to say that God has not used him to do good in the SBC. I find it amazing that you are so close minded, and cannot rejoice in what God has done thru Ronnie Floyd. I think it is the height of arrogance to assumed that the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with Ronnie Floyd. The more I read you the more I am glad that the CR happen.
Has Ronnie Floyd ever reconsidered his harangue against Bill Clinton just a year after extending his hand in Rededication.
From Springdale REvival the summer of 92 to Houston SBC platform the next year.
Call Ronnie Flolyd and get a hubris check, instead of chastising me, Brother.
Sorry BSBN; I meant to place this Helms Link here to support my other references for Helms and the Takeover:
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16492
Jesse Helms was involved in the CR? lol I never saw him at a SBC. Did he ever even attend one of them? And, if he did, and if he was…involved in the SBC Takeover….then so what?
Fox, yea, we TOOK OVER the SBC. Hallelujah!
David
David, I’m sorry I must disagree with you about the CR: we did not take it over, we took it back 🙂
And again. This is just ridiculous. You guys need to do a reality check here. You have lost your first love and hint: It’s not power, greed, nor the SBC.
Debbie,
We’re not in this for power…nor for greed….and it’s not even for the SBC. We’re in this for the Lord Jesus…to be obedient to Him. Therefore, we want the SBC to be grounded in the clear teachings of the Scriptures. So, why in the world you’d make such a statement as you did in #531 is beyond me.
Who do you think was in the CR for power and greed?
David
PS. Thank God that we(conservatives) were able to take it back…the SBC. Thank God for His glorious answer to prayer.
Debbie, I wonder about your first love at times too! When I visited your blog, I never read about Jesus, just what’s wrong with the SBC.
To me it’s one in the same. And the wrong I point out is major and needs to be seen. There is a lot wrong. Lately more wrong than right. We either believe in being holy or we don’t.
Again….I rest my case.
I doubt it. I’ll bet you’ll be back.
To rest a case, you have to make case. You have not done that Debbie.
Just for SSBN and ole TJoe I condensed a url of 311 characters down to 26 cause Ignorance is a shameful thing in matters of Christian Conviction we must do everything we can to eradicate it else we make a mockery of the New Testament parable of the talents and human potential
Because I care about the palpable ignorance here and want to shine a Light in the Darkness I give you this aspect about the fundy takeover of the SBC
Page 63
http://tinyurl.com/29ebzy3
Stephen, I’ve never contended the view of yourself as an intellectual giant. I took your word for it.
As for me being ignorant, I guess that is a matter of opinion, and an opinion that really does not matter to me. I don’t preach to impress people, I try to inspire them.
There are more than a few people in my church that are indeed intellectual giants and leaders in industry. They don’t impress very easily, but surprisingly, they do get inspired easily.
So, if insulting my intelligence inspires you — I am achieving my purpose 🙂
Intelligence and ignorance are two different matters. You are ignorant about the baggage and insidious rippling effect of the character of the fundamentalist takeover. The Point I made about hearts and minds of young minds in seminaries using SEBTS as an example and the incisive remark of Bill Friday, truly a Giant in the State of North Carolina; that is where the Helms chapter matters. And it is a shame you are reluctant to see it for what it is. HL Hunt was a giant in WA Criswell’s congregation at FBC Dallas, but what good did he Do? Maybe the… Read more »
Great fiction writing is always interesting.
See roughly 408 on Hearts and Minds, SSBN. I don’t want you to miss it
I’m not SBC, David. I haven’t been affiliated with a church that supports the SBC in about 10 years. Prior to that, I was at a church that supported both SBC and CBF.
I have published on Southern Baptists and my dissertation is on Southern Baptists. So, I have an interest.
Slowly making progress on the dissertation; will be visiting your fine library and archive later this Fall for about a week or so.
Big Daddy, what is the subject of your dissertation (if you care to share that with us)?
Southern Baptists and environmentalism/conservationism since the 1960s, written from a historical perspective – will attempt to put the efforts/views of Southern Baptists in the context of environmental history/politics and what other religious groups were saying/doing at the time. So I’ll be looking at the conservation efforts of Southern Baptists out West, views about population control (and abortion), nuclear power, clean air/clean water and then the more recent global warming-related debates of the past 10-15 years – and more generally how Southern Baptists have responded to environmental legislation starting with LBJ and Nixon.
It sounds an interesting, and certainly is a very BROAD topic! You have your work cut out for you. It looks like a topic wide enough for a book, or two ! Some of the letters and encyclicals mentioned in this power-point summary may give you a starting (jumping-off place) reference for my Church’s point-of-view: sao.clriq.org.au/publications/cst_and_environ_comp.ppt – Similar The Anglicans world-wide have done some interesting writing. And there are also encyclicals from the Orthodox. Best of luck with this project. It will certainly lead you into a very diverse world of thought, Aaron. It is very difficult, also, in trying… Read more »
Note: my comment number 516 is to Aaron Weaver (Big Daddy Weave) and references his comment at 513.
QUOTE So, I have an interest. END QUOTE
With the way you preface the above remark, I would be suspicious that you not only have an “interest,” but a particular bias.
I just wonder why you picked, “Southern Baptists” when you have no connection to S. Baptists. I say that without any judgment attached, because you may contribute something useful through your dissertation, but it does make me wonder.
Fox,
I think David makes a good point if you just look at the practical side of it. If we all affiliated where we fit theologically, we wouldn’t be griping like old wives in every comment thread.
That said, that doesn’t justify a whitewash of the history of fundamentalism in the SBC, nor a failure on the parts of many folks here to evaluate and be honest about the bogus issue of Inerrancy in for starters:
http://www.sbctakeover.com/
Fox, I’ve already read and decided on the issues. Over at SBC Voices, people of both persuasions have made up their minds and no book will change that. I’m not naive, I understand that people were hurt in the CR. I hate what happened to Dilday, but the Biblical convictions that brought about the CR and the now the BFM2000, in my opinion, were needed to keep the convention from where the PCUSA is today. There was surely sin on both sides of the CR, but you seem to think that all the CR leaders didn’t care about the Bible… Read more »
As I replied our common fallen nature does not excuse a whitewash of the History of the Fundamentalist takeover of the SBC; nor an otherwise good soul like Trevin Wax for instance failure to come to grips with the strong case in Chapter 13 of http://www.sbctakeover.com inerrancy was A RUSE and a Tool.
Even if it were only a ruse and a tool, which it wasn’t, if people like you got hurt, I’m ok with it. Anything that was done to your kind was perfectly on in my book.
Joe, think about it. Was that remark representative of a man who claims to be ‘a real Christian’, in this sense: a ‘real’ Christian is one whose life if being ‘conformed’ to Christ. That is something for you to think about because that ‘harm’ you intend for people you do not agree with; the wish for that ‘harm’ is NOT evidence of a life that is being ‘conformed’ to Our Lord. In that, you do have something to think about. What do your words about desiring harm to come to others tell us? To what do they witness, Joe? I’m… Read more »
Correction:
‘ a ‘real’ Christian is someone whose life IS in process of being conformed to Christ’
Christiane, If it is always un-Christlike to harm someone, was Christ being un-Christlike when he whipped the money-changers? Sometimes, the most Christ-like action one can take is to drive out from our midst those who perpetuate error. Also, when you speak as you do about what took place with Dr. Klouda, I’m inclined to believe you do not have any direct evidence to support your claims. I don’t say that to be mean or hurtful, but your assertions do not match the facts. So, either you are intentionally trying to mislead people in order to further your crusade against conservatives,… Read more »
SSBN, I believe Dr. Klouda.
I rest my flippin case.
Stephen, I started to read “chapter 13”. The info in that chapter does not even get inerrancy right concerning “dictation”. I think I stopped reading after that. You talk about being “honest” about what happened in the SBC. Well, nobody interprets the “facts” of what happened without some lens through which they “interpret” the facts. If folks are wearing different glasses, then folks will interpret that history differently. You can appeal to people to read link after link after link, but if people read these links with a different lens that you do, then you still are not going to… Read more »
Benji, Great post. I read the “13” link (against my better judgment). Most of it was just “another opinion.” Some of it definitely mischaracterized the whole issue of inerrancy. It was a waste of time. You are absolutely right about “lenses.” One difference with me is: I know I have a very conservative lens. I’m just, “conservative” in every area of my life. I’d really be open to discussing the “moderate” view on issues, but they never give any. They just attack my point of view with gratuitous assertions without any substance or support. Giving links that are obviously biased… Read more »
Brandon,
I wish that were true, but I think some of the most common and vocal protagonists and antagonists is these comment threads are not SBC at all.
David: That is always your answer. And that is why I hesitate for us to be so gung ho on the Great Commission. It should be done, but if a new convert starts reading scripture and disagreeing with you, are you going to move for this person to leave too? I am Southern Baptist because I believe that except for a few disagreements I have, and the fact that we are a mess right now, that we have the most Biblical doctrine. But you can’t just solve a problem by pushing people out. That is just way too easy and… Read more »
David: You continually seem to discredit without proofs instead of listening. Just because someone recommends books(which God also uses just like he does preaching) does not mean that someone does not hold the Bible to a high standard. That is a ridiculous thought. And not true.
I really like what Trevin has to say, he seems like a big tent guy ( with reasonable limitations). I agree with his comments regarding the diversity of SBC churches and his statement about the bfm not being a creedal statement
I’d like to insert a snarky comment to get blood boiling but I’m not that kind of guy 🙂
Jim,
Haha… be snarky, not stupid! 😉
Here is a comment I just left Trevin on his 8-3-10 blog Worth a Look. At first glance he does have an interesting blog; reviewing Borg. Maybe he will interview Charles Marsh, Kate Campbell and Charles Pickering soon; and review NT Wright on Inerrancy: My comment on Wax blog: Trevin: I’m following the discussion at SBC voices. Wondering what you make of Carey Newman and David Gushee’s remarks in Hankins Uneasy in Babylon abut SBTS that in the 94 Covenant, God was not in the place, the place being Mohler’s administration. Read it in context. Found your review of Borg… Read more »
Stephen,
I’ve reviewed Hankins’ book on the blog as well as every book Wright has released in the past few years. (I may have skipped “Justification,” but I interviewed him about it and then did the Christianity Today article outlining his view next to Piper’s.) Haven’t read Robinson’s latest, but it looks fascinating.
As to the other possible subjects, there’s only so much time in a day. 🙂
Trevin: Thanks for the reply. Interested to see what you make of NT Wright’s views on Inerrancy as I understand him to think it a tertiary issue at best. In no way can I see a conservative like Wright having found fault with Russell Dilday at SWBTS; or with Randall Lolley like Jim Deloach and others did at SEBTS. Would love to see you hone in on that for the discussion here. And would love for you to address the Newman and Gushee comments on their time at SBTS with Mohler in particular. In the meantime will be looking for… Read more »
Trevin: Just read your review of Hankins book: http://trevinwax.com/2009/10/28/southern-baptists-and-american-culture/ Found a little sophomoric, but I am encouraged to see you at least read the book. BDW who sometimes visits this board has studied with Hankins at Baylor. Hoping he will take a look at your review and maybe we can do some further surgery on the matter. Please place on your radar the works of Charles Marsh whose father was SBC Peace Committee Member Charles Pickering’s pastor in Laurel Mississippi. Take a look at what Marsh says about the Lausanne Covenant in Wayward Christian Soldiers. Hope we can discuss Mark… Read more »
Grounded in the Authority of Scripture the Conservative ethicist David Gushee found fault with Mohler’s Southern Seminary and later with the SBC.
Gushee raises the question just what kind of Baptist are you.
With Gushee as the faultline, seems maybe Trevin Wax’s estimation of the SBC is a little shortsighted.
Here is a current article on Gushee that should bring some focus to the discussion where David Miller could find only a few proffs; and yet sold out wholesale to the SBC takeover.
Wade Burleson and Tom Parker have engaged the ongoing discussion at bl.com
Meantime, Gushee.
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5410/9/
for EVENSONG (this was most gratefully found on Trevin’s blog) ” This is He who made the heavens and the earth, and formed humanity in the beginning, who is announced by the Law and the Prophets, who was enfleshed in a Virgin, who was hanged on the Tree, who was buried in the earth, who was raised from the dead, went up into the heights of heaven, who is sitting at the right hand of the Father, who has the authority to judge and save all things, through whom the Father made the things which exist, from the beginning to… Read more »
Christiane,
I can only imagine how spectacular that homily must have been delivered. It’s one of my favorite “ancient” posts.
I love it.
Thanks again.
Trevin:
You said:”The BF&M is not a creed that churches are forced to accept, but by using it as the consensus of the majority of churches, it has been helpful in steering our discussions away from issues or differences that would cause us to splinter into various groups.”
Corrrect me if I am wrong on this but do not certain people in the SBC have to sign that they agree with the 2000 BF&M?
If they do, how are they not signing off on a creed?
My thanks in advance.
Tom,
I don’t know of anyone who has to actually sign the BF&M, but I believe there are certain positions of leadership within the Convention that require an affirmation of this statement of faith. Asking for an affirmation is merely a way of making sure that the people in leadership reflect the beliefs of the large majority of Southern Baptists.
Trevin— For your information, the BF&M 2000 is required sigining for professors at Seminaries and IMB MIssionaries as well as Agency Heads. The IMB has given some senior missionaries a pass, but the pressure is tremendous to bring about conformity. If you check out the history of SBC Confessions, the earliest one of importance (in the 50’s) had a long preamble stating clearly that it was “just a statement of things upon which most SBC churches agree.” The 2000 version has eliminated this and with its use as a measure of orthodoxy, could be called a “Creed” by most definitions.… Read more »
Gene, Whether you are right or wrong is beside the point right now… I just have to add that this comment is one of the most “elitist” comments I have read in awhile. The whole mentality of “you dont really know anything until you’re old” is really tiresome. While experience certainly is beneficial your comment shows the old and tiresome approach your generation often has for my generation. From what I have read, and many agree with me, Trevin is one of the most insightful young minds in our convention. He is an impressive writer with a humble spirit and… Read more »
Matt Svoboda said:
“The whole mentality of “you dont really know anything until you’re old” is really tiresome. While experience certainly is beneficial your comment shows the old and tiresome approach your generation often has for my generation.”
You know, I believed that same thing when I was Matt’s age.
It may sound strange but, I still believe it to be true today….probably more so.
Matt– You guys are saying exactly what the hippies were saying when they coined the phrase, “You can’t trust anyone over 30!” This was when I was in my early 20’s and a student at Emory and SEBTS. That was elitist on their part!!! I didn’t buy it then because I knew several wise and studied people over 30 who knew enough to teach me a thing or 2! I still know and respect older people–both men and women. To say you don’t know anything because you are too young is a misunderstanding of my approach. To put it simply:… Read more »
cb scott, I must say that I have always gotten that feeling from you… Which is why I really appreciate guys like you, Dave Miller, Hershael York, and many many others of the older generation. IMHO, you all have the right type of approach to my generation and interact with is us in such a way that makes us respect you and want to learn from you. I have much enjoyed my relationship with Dave as I have really started to see him as a guy I can go too and learn from. I do this because he doesn’t come… Read more »
Trevin,
Totally agree about the BFM. I even think if autonomous churches weren’t in place as freely as they are that pastors should have to agree. I got blasted for saying that on here, and you may disagree as well..
Church pastors want sign it in bulk at grassroots level cause if they had to CP giving would dry up dramatically.
As an example take a look at Dawson Memorial in Bham Alabama one of the leading percentage CP givers in the state; yet none of their staff to my knowledge feel comfortable with the BFM 2000.
And why didn’t Jimmy Jackson go ahead with his plans to oust FBC Huntsville from the Madison County Association?
You fellows are just messin; some intentionally, and many like Trevin it appears, unwittingly.
I personally would love to see pastors and churches be required to sign it and abide by it. Other than moderates and liberals (i.e. people whose opinions don’t matter) who would object to what is found in there? Complimentarian, correct view of human sexuality, took out the liberal loophole about how to interpret the bible that let libs/moderates claim “Well Paul couldn’t have meant that because Christ is too loving to have been that exclusive”. Not perfect by any means, but solidly biblical.
Are you an independent Baptist Joe, or is that VolFan who is the Indie.
I see where David Rogers today is endorsing immigration reform.
What has Paul Pressler told you to think about that; or did you miss his call today?
Tell ya what, Fox, you answer this question with a “Yes” or “No” and I’ll answer any question you ask me.
Is it possible for a person to go to heaven without repenting of their sins and placing their faith in Jesus Christ alone?
I have come to the conclusion it would be almost impossible for anyone go to heaven if he were a member of a church where you were the pastor or you had prevailing influence.
“Hell on Earth with Heaven in Jeopardy” should be on the marquee of any church you frequent.
Stephen! Stephen! Stephen! You can do it man… Answer the question. He has asked you 1.4 billion times on SBCVoices and I have never seen you answer it.
I dont want to assume what your answer is, but the fact that you dodge it every time seems to be an indicator- fill me in! Plus, Joe said ANY question you ask him- that is priceless!
Ron West, Tom Parker and Wade Burleson have some questions for you at baptistlife.com forums SBC Trends. YOu should check it out. Joe sabotages your Forum here. He is your problem not mine. It was him on his fellow clown Volfan who had a wedding in the family last weekend. Out of respect for their family I am trying to avoid him as much as possible. Trevin seems to be sincere in his pursuits though his conclusions to date are a little sophomoric. I think we should turn our attention back to him and be better role models for youngsters… Read more »
Stephen,
All of them are free to email me, but I know Wade likes to publicly post private emails so I probably wont email him back. But, if the questions are good, maybe I will go ahead and write a public post of my own so Wade(as he did to Dave Miller) doesn’t butcher my email by taking bits and pieces of it to intentionally deceive and change what I say.
See, here’s the deal…if he answers it “Yes” he is going to have to admit that a Muslim or a Mormon isn’t going to heaven and that will inflame his liberal buddies over at Baptist Life Forums.
If he answers “No”, which is what he really beleves, he will prove once for all forever that he is not saved because he doesn’t believe the gospel.
It’s a no win situation for him, which of course is why I keep asking him about it.
I answered Joe Blow’s Hell question in comment 25. Over at bl.com there is a new post on WA Criswell also a comment that establishes Blackmon as an Independent Baptist.
I don’t know Joe’s Momma but how do we know she didn’t die and go to Hell.
Point is, only God Knows, not what Joe says.
Joe, Go see Winter’s Bone and let’s talk about Thump Milton.
I answered Joe Blow’s Hell question in comment 25.
No you didn’t. The question was can anyone go to heaven apart from repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ. The question requires a yes or a no which of course you’re not man enough to give because you know you lose all credibility if you answer it.
You answer was some blathering about churches and pastors. My question, as anyone who can read can tell, didn’t have anything to do with that.
I can’t for the life of me figure out why people think you punch kittens every morning.
I can’t for the life of me figure out why this didn’t attach to Joe Blackmon either.
Brandon, Just curious as to what you mean by your statement, “I even think if autonomous churches weren’t in place as freely as they are that pastors should have to agree.” I promise I won’t blast you, but I would like some clarification (because I have not read your previous posts saying this) before I comment. Also, are you in agreement with 100% of the BF&M? You don’t have one small quibble with anything contained therein? Finally for you and all who would like to see (require) autonomous SB churches/pastors sign the BF&M, would that be a legally binding document… Read more »
Every SBC preacher out there knows it only takes one zealous fundamentalist in his church who wants to cause trouble and the preacher’s head can be had on a platter with 51% of any vote; and they can vote as often as a fundy makes a stink. So if Brandon starts enforcing his BFM requirement in “autonomous” local SBC congregations then every preacher out there will sweat his “convictions” on the nature of Scripture praying that it doesn’t come down to a moment like it was in 84 on the Wednesday afternoon of the SBC annual Meeting when Black Hawk… Read more »
Howell, Essentially my position on the BFM2000 is that I think it is the best doctrinal statement for a convention I think of the past two centuries. I disagree that the word “inerrancy” was avoided after all the CR did to fight that word into things (not that I disagree with them pushing it) but I suppose inerrancy is essentially established nonetheless. I think the creed/statement of faith line is close for me there. The SBC schools and missionaries have to sign off on it and I think it would build accountability and unity if pastors who chose to associate… Read more »
Brandon, Thanks for the reply. I have read enough of Stephen (Fox) to know that those of us who supported the CR (even if it was not perfect) will never be able to agree with those who would have preferred that no CR ever took place. I don’t know that I would say the BF&M2000 is the best doctrinal statement of the last two centuries, but it is a worthy competitor for that title. I appreciate your “pipe dreams,” but I believe the mandatory requirement for pastors or churches to sign the BF&M would fundamentally alter the very nature of… Read more »
Howell,
You said “I would most strenuously object to that becoming mandatory for local churches.”
Thank you. One example–BF&M 2000 affirms that the Spirit baptizes people.
Some who do not like this part of the confession might still be able to sign because they think this is “poorly worded”. Others might not be able to sign because their conscience is too sensitive, if I may use that word, to find rest in that reasoning.
Howell in many ways I think you beg the question; you are looking for the Pony in the piles of what ponies do, but the Pony isn’t there. The SBC was fundamentally(don’t let the pun go over your head) alterred Weds morning of the San Antonio 88 Convention when Pressler’s forces finally got to the Jugular with the Resolution Number Five presented by Fred Wolfe and Sutton On the Priesthood of the Believer. And it you don’t get the signficance of That, then read Harold Bloom on the Matter in American Religion. Maybe he can help you understand. I’m sorry… Read more »
Benji: I do think that there are some issues within the BF&M that, depending on how they were interpreted, could cause major headaches if churches or pastors were required to sign. The issue of the Spirit baptizing “every believer into the Body of Christ” at the moment of regeneration (BF&M, Article II, Sec. C) as it relates to water baptism/Lord’s Supper is one that has already been discussed by some. My church practices modified open communion whereby any born-again believer may partake, regardless of their water baptism. This perhaps conflicts with a literal interpretation of Article VII, but is consistent… Read more »
I just want to clarify something. No church has to sign the BFM2K but many employees of the denomination are REQUIRED to sign it. All of the missionaries of the IMB and NAMB must actually sign that they are in agreement with it. Some state conventions require that all trustees appointed to boards and committees also sign it.
I assume most folks here think that is a good thing.
Scott
Trevin: You said to me:”I don’t know of anyone who has to actually sign the BF&M, but I believe there are certain positions of leadership within the Convention that require an affirmation of this statement of faith. Asking for an affirmation is merely a way of making sure that the people in leadership reflect the beliefs of the large majority of Southern Baptists.” You call it an affirmation but is that not just another name for a creed? Baptist used to not be a people of a creed until the 2000 BF&M. But now it is sign it, otherwise you… Read more »
What about the missionaries who were fired because they refused to sign off on this creed?
If they came to me at work and told me I had to sign something that I did not agree with because I believed it was wrong or be fired, I guess I’d be fired too because I wouldn’t compromise my principals. Of course, these people were fired because they disagreed with biblical theology, but that’s another story.
Matt S.:
Joe Blackmon said the following:”I personally would love to see pastors and churches be required to sign it and abide by it. Other than moderates and liberals (i.e. people whose opinions don’t matter) who would object to what is found in there? Complimentarian, correct view of human sexuality, took out the liberal loophole about how to interpret the bible that let libs/moderates claim “Well Paul couldn’t have meant that because Christ is too loving to have been that exclusive”. Not perfect by any means, but solidly biblical.”
Your thoughts on Joe’s position.
I, like Joe, would be happy to sign it, but right now I am pleased with only having paid SBC employees having to sign it. I am glad paid SBC employees do have to sign it and I am not opposed to making all SBC pastors sign it, but I am happy with how it is done currently.
Moderates in the SBC often seem to avoid trying to argue that their views are more biblical. Instead, they focus on ad homenim – pointing out the hypocrisies, inconsistencies, and bad behaviors of conservatives. While it is true that conservatives in the SBC do provide much material for such ad homenim, it is also true that the inability or unwillingness or many (but not all) moderates to make arguments for their theological positions is one of the reasons why they lost in the SBC controversy and why they have a hard time recruiting young pastors to their ranks right now.
I have asked others on this board and they usually avoid the question but I will ask you anyway.
Name the books on the BX 6400 shelf at any decent Library; name the books you have read on the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC.
Mark Noll and ClarkPinnock put the whole mess in a Nutshell in 1987 at Ridgecrest; but apparently you weren’t there and none of your fundamentalist mentors to date have bothered to tell you about it.
I have read:
Barry Hankins, Uneasy in Babylon
Bill Leonard, God’s Last and Only Hope
Jerry Sutton, The Baptist Reformation
Nancy T. Ammerman, Baptist Battles
David Morgan, The New Crusades, The New Holy Land
Paul Pressler, A Hill on Which to Die
Jeff,
That has certainly been the majority case on SBC Voices.
We all fall short- I just realized that I partook in the comment thread getting off topic. I do apologize and I will make sure that I get punished… Stephen, Joe, etc- let’s try to stay on topic. You, me, and everyone else!
Matt S: You said :”I, like Joe, would be happy to sign it, but right now I am pleased with only having paid SBC employees having to sign it. I am glad paid SBC employees do have to sign it and I am not opposed to making all SBC pastors sign it, but I am happy with how it is done currently.” You do realize how unbaptistic it would be to making all SBC pastors sign it–the 2000 BF&M. My question is what if the pastor and or church will not agree to sign it–your thoughts. Jeff, please help me… Read more »
As I said, I’m happy with how it currently is. I’m not anti making pastors sign it, but I think it is unnecessary.
A moderate is a person, who is somewhat conservative in their theology; but he is okay with liberals being in leadership positions in the SBC, being missionaries, etc. A moderate would be ok with a SB seminary prof praying to Mother god; or with a missionary that believed in universalism and liberation theology; or with an SBC entity head believing abortion is ok. Moderates seem to believe in the “let’s just all get along with each other” mentality that goes along with the good ole boy system.
DAvid
To add to that, they typically are very cagey about what they actaully believe. You really have to “smoke ’em out” to get them to admit what they believe. That’s because, while some of them may have some conservative beliefs (i.e. salvation come through repentance of sin and faith in Christ) they’ire usually not that conservative (i.e. salvation comes through repentance of sin and faith in Christ but God may allow a Muslim into heaven if he’s sincere enough–faith trumps belief). That’s why moderates are, in my most humble of opinions, even worse than liberals. At least liberals own what… Read more »
Matt s: You said:”All of them are free to email me, but I know Wade likes to publicly post private emails so I probably wont email him back. But, if the questions are good, maybe I will go ahead and write a public post of my own so Wade(as he did to Dave Miller) doesn’t butcher my email by taking bits and pieces of it to intentionally deceive and change what I say” That is a very serious and outrageous charge you are making their young man! How can you prove that Wade or anyone is intentionally deceiving or changing… Read more »
Wade did that! I’m shocked. Please, don’t tell Debbie 🙂
I have no problem with him saying it.
Tom, go to your own forum- Baptist Life and read it objectively. I read it this morning and it was quite obvious. When you quote someone and yet cut out an important part you are intentionally deceiving and misrepresenting.
Matt: At what point of the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention did Paul Pressler and Robert Tenery and company NOT intentionally Deceive.
I think the record is clear BDW and I have read considerably more on the matter than you and Dave Miller and we can not find many points where there Was Not Intentional Deception and Deceit of the Grossest Magnitude, Brother.
Steve,
Show me, who has read as much or more about it, and has far more first hand experience than both of you, any intentional deception of which Robert Tenery was involved. Tell me where, you, Steve Fox, have firsthand information wherein Judge Pressler was intentionally deceptive.
CB: I was using Criswell’s Pulpit license; I was preaching and as any fan of Criswell will tell you, when you are preaching you can say anything you want to. That said, if this board had an edit option I would go back and say that a different way. To bring it to the level of intention was a mistake on my part, an error. Am I convinced it was a Grand Exercise in Deception; that Deception was an overwheliming aspect of the Takeover, Yes I am. Do I have evidence that would satisfy your understanding of Intent, I doubt… Read more »
Stephen,
So your defense of Wade intentionally deceiving is “well thats what the SBC takeover people did”? Nice, well, I guess that means you guys are in the same boat of those you hate so much.
Matt,
Repay evil with evil… you know the old saying! 😉
Matt: I don’t see where I implied Wade intentionally deceived.
See the Ron West Testimony from BL.com
“Why did Pressler walk off his interview with Bill Moyers on National PBS Christmas of 87? I guess we’ll never know.”
Steve, Restroom break maybe? Remember, he did say, “excuse me.” before he left.
He can ask me. I know it to be true.
I should have said, Tom Parker, he can ask me. I know it is true.
CB, I hope you didn’t act on my frustrated email last night! I had a moment of weakness, but I’m back to being a huggy-bear again.
Huggy Bear Dave,
I worked in the “business” too long not to know you were just frustrated. You also did not mention a $ amount. 🙂
Do we still allow female missionaries? I know we dump the stateside women into the home econ class known as Southwestern, but I’m wondering if we still commission female missionaries.
And if we do, how do we reconcile women not being senior pastors and teachers of men here stateside when they perform those very same roles out in the mission field as they teach converts and establish churches, just not with the title and paycheck.
No need to justify anything. Women do not serve as NAMB or IMB pastors anyplace in the world. That’s a red herring.
No, but they perform the same duties and actions as senior pastors while out in the field. How is that reconciled?
I’m sorry, but didn’t we settle this about 10 years ago. Women, no matter how much moderates wish it weren’t so, are not going to serve as pastors in the SBC. You see, it’s this little thing called “The Bible” that has clear instructions on that sort of thing. I Timothy 2. You might want to read it sometime.
They are fulfilling the role of senior pastor while out in the field, are they not? They are doing everything that a senior pastor would do here state side. Wait, I see the disconnect: Most male senior pastors stopped performing those tasks years ago to pursue book writing and convention speaking opportunities. I can see why my simply worded questions are not getting answered. I know 1 Timothy 2. That’s why I’m questioning everyone’s stance on it since we’re allowing women to do the duties of a senior pastor while they are missionaries, we’re just not letting them make the… Read more »
Mary Magdalene did not need a ‘title’ and a ‘paycheck’ to obey Our Lord when she was told to announce His Resurrection to the Apostles.
In time, the Church awarded her a very special title. In early Christian tradition, she is known as ‘the Apostle to the Apostles’.
Sending a message and serving as a pastor are two totally different things.
TJ: Two of the greatest preachers on the planet are women: Fleming Rutledge and Barbara Brown Taylor.
You ought to go hear em preach some time, in the flesh.
I have heard them both in the flesh; one Preaching on the Ole Axis of Evil.
Don’t let the wife know where you are and sneak out of the house or order and have delivered in a brown package of some kind Fleming’s Help My Unbelief.
Several sermons in there that will go straight to the heart of a lot of your nonsense and blunderbuss.
Not if you’re dong the exact same things. A female missionary is preaching and teaching to men every bit as much as a female pastor would be doing here stateside. However, we condemn the female here stateside while supporting the female in another area.
This is what I’m questioning. Or is the SBC getting ready to stop sending female missionaries?
She also washed Jesus feet with her Hair and I don’t have any doubts Jesus was grateful.
A foot washin Preacher; quite a package but Paige Patterson would fire her for sure; most likely just see her as a temptress; an occasion for man’s sin, something to be avoided.
bill: You said–““I would encourage people not to bring that ugliness to this post.” Then why do you continue to allow Joe to post on this site at all?” 007, CB, and especially Joe Blackmon frequent SBC voices with their attack of the “liberals” and they are generally given a pass, but let anyone say anything against the CR and that is a no, no. Also if Joe Blackmon does not agree with someone he is around 100% ugly in his response but CB likes the spirit of Joe Blackmon and so Joe Blackmon feels emboldened. I do not see… Read more »
There seems to be plenty of ugliness from the moderates that frequent this site. How would I know that unless I read their posts.
So, it seems like your criticism of those who provide this blog is comletely unfounded — sort of like your consistent, persistent and insistent attacks on the CR.
The fact that you are complaining seems to mitigate against your complaint.
but let anyone say anything against the CR and that is a no, no.
Oh, muzzle it. Stephen blathers constantly about the evils of the CR and how hateful fundy’s are and I don’t see his “SBC Voices” card revoked. Why don’t you try dealing with the facts?
Also if Joe Blackmon does not agree with someone he is around 100% ugly in his response
Let’s see here. To whom is it that I’m ugly? That would be moderates. Yeah, I’m ok with that.
Yeah, because being mean spirited and insulting to those who don’t agree with you is in perfect line with the scriptures.
I think I’ll punch my senior adult pastor in the face next time I see him since we don’t agree on worship music.
Ladies and gentlemen, let me present the gospel according to Joe Blackmon.
It sounds like it is also the gospel to bill. You and Tom are a like in your thinking. Hey since person x did something sinful, let me do it to show them how it feels. You sin to show others how bad their sin is….must be because you don’t believe the Bible is enough. Just present the Word of God and let the Holy Spirit convict them.
If someone denies the basic tenents of the Christian faith (inerrancy, exclusivity of salvation through Christ alone etc) then they shouldn’t act all surprised when I am less than friendly to them.
Considering how you treat your brothers in Christ…
But hey, what ever helps you sleep at night, Joe.
Well Tom Parker,
Now that you have called me by name, I do like Joe. He is an honest guy, straight forward guy like some of those Jesus called to follow Him years ago down by the seashore.
I had planned to leave this post alone because Trevin Wax seemed like a nice guy when I met him in Orlando. But if you insist, I’ll be glad to…….
Tom Parker, I am the main administrator of this site. You speak of what you do not know… I once banned 007 for how he was conducting himself and I have deleted A LOT of 007s and Joe’s comments… Of course you dont see consistency because you only see half of it. You have no idea how many times I have edited and deleted comments of Joe and 007. We allow more conversation than any other Baptist blog that I am aware of. Am I a perfect administrator? Definitely not… Do I try my best to be fair? Yes. You,… Read more »
Tom Parker,
I have been deleted on Voices more than once. Same is true of SBC TODAY, IMPACT!, Wade’s Goose Farm, Debbie’s Funhouse, and several others. You may not believe it, but I have been deleted more at SBC TODAY than any other place.
But I don’t fell bad toward any of those guys. What really hurt me was when I was “deleted” from a Boy Scout Troop over an incident with some M-80s, a tent and a sleeping Scout Master. 🙂
See Tom, you simply dont know the facts. CB, 007, and Joe have all been deleted at SBC Voices… We are as fair as any SBC blog I know of and we allow more conversation than any SBC blog that I know of.
Yeah, we let Joe ramble and get off topic, but we let you and Stephen Fox do the same thing.
Matt Svoboda,
Your grandfather did not happen to be a Scout Master who was blown up in a tent back fifty or so years ago was he? 🙂
You are on a roll, CB.
Huggy Bear Dave,
I had to ask him that. You know how rampant vendettas are here in Blogtown. I thought maybe I got deleted here was because Matt was getting revenge for his Grandfather? I didn’t ask the Scout Master’s name. I just blew up his tent. It wasn’t personal. 🙂
Well, being deleted from SBC Today is par for the course.
They aren’t known for being keen on people having a different position or view point over there.
They also aren’t known for being entirely accurate in their own reporting either. God help them when bloggers posing as news outlets are subject to the same libel laws as reputable news sources.
Then again, after gross negligence in their reporting, they just toss out a trite apology like Joe does from time to time.
Well, if you’re talking about the error with the BGCT and Lottie Moon receipts, yes they were wrong. And they offered a sincere appology. However, it’s not like they were criticizing the conservative convention so it was really no big deal. It’s just the BGCT.
Dude, I almost choked on my biscuit reading that last line. I know you dit’nt!!!! LOL
When have I ever acted ugly?
You may not like what I say…you dont agree with what I say… but when have I acted ugly?
Tom, talk about the pot calling the kettle black?
David
Joe Blackmon:
You said:”If they came to me at work and told me I had to sign something that I did not agree with because I believed it was wrong or be fired, I guess I’d be fired too because I wouldn’t compromise my principals. Of course, these people were fired because they disagreed with biblical theology, but that’s another story.”
What an ugly and outrageous comment made about missionaries who in a million years you would never reach the spiritual maturity of qualifying and serving as missionaries as they did.
Please be quiet.
Just a note about the real history: most moderate leaning missionaries resigned and were not fired.
There is SSBN’s History and then there is Credible History of why the Missionaries were Fired.
In case anybody in their prayer time is inclined to a smidgeon of truth on this matter as opposed to BSBN’s Jr. High what he thought he remembered somebody saying there is This:
http://www.helwys.com/books/obrien_2.html
You know Tom, as I was reading your pithy little comment I think I heard an orchestra in the background playing “My Heart Bleeds For You”. And the funny thing is, it was in E flat which is strange because most string players hate flats. Weird.
JB Taliban Joe, when I think Of you I always think Diapason cause you are the heartbeat, the Major Chord of All that is Right in the World; Serenity and Peace.
QUOTE know we dump the stateside women into the home econ class known as Southwestern END QUOTE
Tom, is this the kind of “ugliness” you were talking about?
Of course not, it was a slam against SWBTS, Patterson, and the CR. It’s a hat trick!! Don Quixote will probably give him a medal for such a comment.
If you’re going to quote me, at least have the decency to address this to me. I stand by my comment about the Home Economics class at SWBTS. As a matter of fact, I’ve spoken with several (in excess of thirty) women who stated that they would have attended one of the other seminaries rather than SWBTS because of the new 1959 style of curriculum for women who want to be in the ministry. Then again, women can fulfill the roles ascribed to that of teacher and senior pastor while serving as a missionary but they aren’t allowed to make… Read more »
I have spoken to several women who plan on going to SWBTS because they do offer this course of study.
Outstanding.
SSBN: Whoever you are, you said the following:”There seems to be plenty of ugliness from the moderates that frequent this site. How would I know that unless I read their posts. So, it seems like your criticism of those who provide this blog is comletely unfounded — sort of like your consistent, persistent and insistent attacks on the CR. The fact that you are complaining seems to mitigate against your complaint.” My questions to SSBN–alias ?????: What is a moderate? Who is ripping the CR? What is insistent? What is mitigate? that one I think I know–it is what birds… Read more »
Matt:
You said:”Tom, go to your own forum- Baptist Life and read it objectively. I read it this morning and it was quite obvious. When you quote someone and yet cut out an important part you are intentionally deceiving and misrepresenting.”
I do not have a Forum.
Help me what part did he cut out. My thanks in advance.
Here is Daves response to Wade taht shows what Wade left out: “My comment was: “I graduated from SWBTS. I know of at least two men who were my professors whom I would call liberal (or at least who held positions that should have eliminated them from teaching at an SBC seminary). I would be reluctant to name them publicly. Neither were prominent big-name professors.” Your comment became deceptive when you excised my parenthetical comment.(this would be the important part in which Wade would to have purposefully deleted the words- it could not have been an accident it had to… Read more »
SSBN:
You said:”Just a note about the real history: most moderate leaning missionaries resigned and were not fired.”
lol, man they were fired. It may help you and the others to sleep better at night believing they resigned, but bottom line they were fired.
Now, that is the real history, SSBN or whomever you are.
It must be hard living in such a confusing world of your own making. I would answer your questions, but your really don’t want answers. Your crack about grammar makes you look ignorant. And, I didn’t say “none” were fired, I just said that some resigned. Others went with other missionary agencies. I sleep well at night knowing that because of the CR, our missionaries are giving a clear, unadulterated, soul-saving message and not the confusion some missionaries were trying to pass of as the gospel. I didn’t go back over all of your posts, but everyone of the dozen… Read more »
Matt:
You said to Stephen:”So your defense of Wade intentionally deceiving is “well thats what the SBC takeover people did”? Nice, well, I guess that means you guys are in the same boat of those you hate so much.”
Matt, you can not prove Wade’s intent anymore than I could prove your intent.
Also, there is no hate involved here, it is the truthful standing up to the Takeover, I believe your guys came up with that word.
My guys? I wasn’t even in diapers. lol.
Tom,
I cannot prove Wades intent, but deductive reasoning points me in that direction. To do what he did accidently means he has the intellect of an 8th grader, but I believe Wade is a smart guy. He is just a smart guy with an agenda.
Matt:
You said:”My guys? I wasn’t even in diapers. lol.
Tom,
I cannot prove Wades intent, but deductive reasoning points me in that direction. To do what he did accidently means he has the intellect of an 8th grader, but I believe Wade is a smart guy. He is just a smart guy with an agenda.”
Your being in diapers is no excuse for not getting yourself up to speed for what really happened with the CR.
I’ll say it again, Matt, you can not prove Wade’s intent.
Please show me what Wade did wrong with Dave Miller’s quote.
Go read it… He quoted what Dave said and intentionally(this could not have been by accident- he would have had to delete it on purpose) left an important part off. It had to be intentional because it could not have been an accident. It really is that simple.
I am “up to speed”, but you cant call them “my guys” when I wasnt even in diapers. lol. It is ridiculous.
Dave Miller, I have thought about whether to say something or not. If you or Matt think that what I am about to say hurts more than helps [though my intent is to defend Dave], then please nuke this comment: I have personally met Dave Miller and I believe the negative disposition that he has been accused of having is false. Dave is the kind of guy who I think would be good at hosting a “Christian Late Night Show” [if there was such a thing]. He was good at keeping the conversation going when he, Chris, David R, and… Read more »
and I would like to add an Amen. (this is also from personally meeting him… I even stayed in his house!) 🙂
Thanks guys.
Well said. I met Dave. I affirm Benji’s characterization of him.
Matt: You said:”Go read it… He quoted what Dave said and intentionally(this could not have been by accident- he would have had to delete it on purpose) left an important part off. It had to be intentional because it could not have been an accident. It really is that simple. I am “up to speed”, but you cant call them “my guys” when I wasnt even in diapers. lol. It is ridiculous.” What does the part in parenthesis have to do with Wade’s comment? How does it change Wade’s intent? I do notice the atta boys for Dave Miller against… Read more »
Tom, You cant be blind and dumb so just try, please! This is what happened: Person A says, “I love cats and I hate it when people kill cats.” Person B quotes person A as saying, “I love it when people kill cats.” Person B intentionally misquoted person A by leaving out a part of the quotation. This couldnt have been on accident, he would have had to INTENTIONALLY left out the other words. Do you see now? Also, I am glad you notice the “atta boys” because Dave is a man of integrity that is fair and balanced and… Read more »
Tom Parker,
It is not hard to catch on to someone’s “intent” when they have poured it out by buckets full over the last four-five years. It becomes rather simple after a while.
Well, simple to all those willing to see it.
I know this is not my blog and I am a guest here, but for crying out loud, does every single thread have to evolve into this same tired argument between the same half dozen people? Could somebody please declare a CR moratorium?
Its a really good question, Bill.
I thought the CR would live forever. Isn’t a moratorium a little soon.
If this is yet another death; I hope some of you will go see the grand job Ron West did at baplife.com on the matter.
He and Wade Burleson speak truth with love, to borrow Adrian Rogers old phrase.
What was it Lincon said about the Judgment of the Lord are true and Righteous altogether?
And then Noll made his points.
Oh well, we can’t all be as certain as Jos Blackmon.
Maybe some of the certain ones here will venture deep into the BX 6400’s.
As the only surviving member of the CR who admits to perpetrating evil upon the heads of various liberals and at least one who tape recorded one of our meetings and urged the firing of Baptist press guys who followed me into a restroom asking me questions about the Sanctity of Human Life motion I made at the BSSB, I declare a moratorium against “CR rumbles” on posts without direct reference to the CR or the men who freed the SBC from slavery of poor theology, empty missions efforts by the missions boards, and bad books at the book stores.… Read more »
Bill Mac:
You said:”I know this is not my blog and I am a guest here, but for crying out loud, does every single thread have to evolve into this same tired argument between the same half dozen people? Could somebody please declare a CR moratorium?”
It’s not likely to happen and it is the fault of both sides.
And I personally am sorry that you find it to be a tired argument as it is a living reality that changed the SBC forever.
“it is a living reality that changed the SBC forever.”
A-Men Tom Parker. Bless your heart. I certainly hope it has changed it forever.
Good point Tom Parker; great point.
Stay with us at bl.com. Maybe Joe Blackmon will keep his gunk here where he is the class clown; rather than venture there where things are different and he in short order will be the laughingstock.
Of course he will relish the martyrdom, I imagine, like Pressler did in his narcissistic venture Hill Upon Which to die with the TExas Regulars.
Look, guys, I am never going to believe that the CR was anything but a work of God. A few of you have the opposite view. If one of us writes a “CR” related post, I guess we opened the door.
But Brandon did a very good interview with Trevin Wax that has devolved into the same old garbage.
Could we just stop? Could we just NOT make every blog post about this? Just stop – right now.
How about it fellas?
Of too minds here; I agree to some extent, Trevin Wax is worthy of notice even if quite sophomoric in his depth on the takeover. He takes Mohler and Akins as if they were innocents when in fact they arose as Mother was fond of saying; rose up and knew not Joseph. I do want to see if anyone will take up Wax on NT Wright; as Wright discounts inerrancy; yet far as I can make so far, Wax is okay with Wright as if Wright were he a SBC honcho would sign the BFM 2000 and it just isn’t… Read more »
Steve,
I would like for you to respond to my comment #52.
Dave M:
As long as some of the commenters here loosely throw the two words of liberal and moderates around in their comments and attack these invisible people the CR is going to keep coming up.
Trevin says the 2000 BF&M is not a creed, but I believe that it is.
Ask the missionaries who had to “resign” because they could not in clear conscience sign it.
Tom Parker,
Some of us had to sign the ’63 BF&M. Was it also a creed?
CB:
If you had to sign the 1963 BF&M it was a creed.
My understanding is prior to the 2000 BF&M missionaries were not required to sign a document of their support for the BF&M.
The BF&M was used in other entities than just the mission boards Tom Parker.
Tom Parker, if you sign a document representing the terms on which you agree to work, is that a creed?
I would say it boarders very close to being a creed. The sbc missionaries and swbts proffs I knew certainly thougt so, and that included those that signed it w no real theological issues
How is it a creed Jim?
“The modern cry ‘less creed and more liberty’ is the degeneration from the vertebrate to the jelly fish, and means less unity and less morality, and it means more heresy.” – B. H. Carroll
Jeff,
I think it is precisely B.H. Carroll who might have been shut out by the BF&M 2000 if he were alive today. Unless he could have signed it based on the poorly worded reasoning, then I do not see how he would not have been.
He rejected the idea that the Spirit baptized people.
See my comment #28 August 6, 2010 at 9:52 am
SSBN:
Whoever you are you said to me:”Your crack about grammar makes you look ignorant”
Its really nice when unknown people insult you.
And BTW I will gladly admit that I am an ignorant person, thanks for reminding me how little I really know.
What about you, are you ignorant?
Tom Parker,
That is hypocrisy. You are as anonymous as SSBN. You go by Tom Parker, but who knows anything about you? Some folks say you are a youth minister here in Alabama who is angry because you can’t preach well and nobody will call as a pastor. Others say you are a former Southern Baptist living in the Triad working for the Presbyterian Ministers’ Fund. But I ask you, whom do you say you are?
Tom Parker,
I do hope you tell us who you are and something about yourself. Thus far all we know is that you post anti-conservative comments on blog threads and you take pleasure in your own personal ignorance.
You know, that is just kinda sad Tom Parker.
Which is it Tom Parker. Is it frustrated youth guy or Presbyterian Ministers’ Fund guy?
Tom Parker,
Did you really mean this: “I will gladly admit that I am an ignorant person, thanks for reminding me how little I really know.”??
Why do you want to remain ignorant?
Do you wear T-Shirts that bear the print, “I GLADLY ADMIT THAT I AM AN IGNORANT, MISINFORMED PERSON” on the front? Or, is the same message printed on both front and back?
No
Actually, I posted the first comment on this thread but it didn’t make it to light. Trevin spoke about the usefulness of short-term mission trips. I suggested that we might want to rethink an automatic response of “yea, it really builds a love for missions.” I’m sure it does in some instances, but I’ve seen mission groups come back to churches and step over homeless people to get into the church. My theory is this: do hands on missions in our own backyard and give the money saved on travel to the CP to fund an ever increasing mission movement… Read more »
I’m in agreement with SSBN. I see some value in short term mission trips, but I also think they not be the best stewardship.
lower case bill: I’ve been trying to go by Bill Mac to avoid confusion but I haven’t been consistent.
No worries.
You’re far more polite and compassion in your posts than I am so I’m sure that those reading will be able to spot the difference.
That’s a perspective I never thought about. I know that I haven’t been called to full time missions overseas so I guess I looked at short term mssions as a way to help out where I can.
SSBN,
I’ve wrestled with the pros and cons of short-term mission trips too… especially since I used to live in Europe and dealt with many teams, some good and some not so good. Here are some thoughts on mission teams: “Are Short-Term Mission Trips Worth the Trouble?”
http://trevinwax.com/2008/11/25/are-short-term-mission-trips-worth-the-trouble/
SSBN:
You said to me:”It must be hard living in such a confusing world of your own making. I would answer your questions, but your really don’t want answers.”
Pitiful excuse, SSBN.
Your last sentence should read–I would answer your questions, but you (not your) really don’t want answers.
SSBN, when you continously mispell simple words it makes you look ??
Sorry, my secretary usually types all my correspondence. I think one characteristic of a “moderate” is, they cannot figure out what is essential to a matter and what is extraneous. Your childish attempt at proving your intellectual superiority at the expense of missing the point, would ceratainly indicate moderate tendencies. Unfortunately, you don’t seem to be astute enough to be able to tell the difference between a typo and a misspelling. So, how does that make you look? Since others want to discuss matters of substance instead of the ad hominem attack of moderates (another characteristic of moderates, however, not… Read more »
Well since we have gone so far afield I have two nonrelated comments
1. Nolan Ryan along with Chuck Greenberg won the bidding for the Texas Rangers and
2. Scott Floyd has joined BHCarroll to start a Christian Counselling program – over under on swbts that move over immediately is 15. Check out the bhcti website.
Coinsidence, I don’t think so
now back to your regular programming
Matt: You said to me:”Tom Parker, I am the main administrator of this site. You speak of what you do not know… I once banned 007 for how he was conducting himself and I have deleted A LOT of 007s and Joe’s comments… Of course you dont see consistency because you only see half of it. You have no idea how many times I have edited and deleted comments of Joe and 007. We allow more conversation than any other Baptist blog that I am aware of. Am I a perfect administrator? Definitely not… Do I try my best to… Read more »
CB:
Please let SSBN and I work out our ignorant issues.
Tom Parker,
Please do so. And if it is your wish, take all the pleasure you desire in your personal ignorance. Just eat, drink and be merry.
I went to SWBTS back in the 1990s. Before the mid-1990s, SWBTS was considered the most conservative SBC seminary. But even there, two professors caught my attention. Both were hired by Russell Dilday in 1992 First, there was Keith Putt who taught philosophy. Millard Erickson, in his 1998 book “Postmodernizing the Faith” that Putt denied substitutionary atonement and advocated deconstructionism. All of this was already well-known to students on campus at the time. Second, there were was Jeff Pool, who in his 1998 book “Against Returning to Egypt” strongly rejected biblical inerrancy and substitutionary atonement. In fact, he spent over… Read more »
Between Pagie Patterson enabling the careers of the Caner Brothers, and Dilday’s hiring of Jeff Pool, I’ll take Jeff Pool every time.
Why don’t you ask GAry Fenton at Dawson Memorial BC in Bham Alabama what he thinks; which among these two he favors; and if it is Jeff Pool ask him why his church continues to be a leading percentage giver to the CP in the state and why his staff hasn’t signed the BFM 2000.
CB Scott is in the area. Maybe he can give us a report.
Stephen,
You didn’t answer my question about SBC seminaries and substitutionary atonement. Should SBC seminaries hire and give tenure to professors who deny substitutionary atonement and teach future SBC pastors to do the same?
I said I would take Pool over the Caner Brothers.
Here is a list of books including Poole’s you probably never read:
http://www.helwys.com/books/pool.html
I have actually read 2 out of the 5 books. Ergun Caner doesn’t teach at one of the 6 SBC seminaries. Given a choice between a man who lied about his autobiography and one who denies substitutionary atonement, I would take the one who lied about his autobiography, because to deny substitutionary atonement is to deny the gospel. Of course, I think that neither one should teach at an SBC seminary. This dialogue with Stephen is typical of dialogues I have had with SBC moderates. The conservative says, “There were professors at SBC seminaries who denied biblical inerrancy and substitutionary… Read more »
Steve, I think maybe it is time to go back to my challenge to you about the “book thing.” You seem to be getting a little uppity again and maybe a good early morning wager will help you. You remember my offer to you about books, personal experience and such don’t you Steve? If not, here it is again: You may intimidate some of the folks here on the book thing, but not me. I will make a deal with you. You bring your pen and paper to my home and count my “read through, dog-eared and marked up books… Read more »
1) Stephen isn’t man enough to answer questions about doctrine and biblical theology. That’s how moderates are. They know if they come out and admit what they really believe then real Christians will see them for what they are. 2) Of course Stephen doesn’t have a problem with that. His belief is basically the same as that heretic on Donnahue with Patterson that one time who basically said “Love God, love your neighbor and everything else is ok” when asked if someone could get to heaven without hearing about Jesus. Of course, the bible says something different. Real Christians recognize… Read more »
Joe; it’s good to hear from the Independent Baptist on the Board. You are Exhibit A of the Point no Less than Morris Chapman was making in His Farewell Convention address in Orlando this year before the Two Percenter, Ronnie Floyd, got the microphone on the GCR. You Know Ronnie; Patterson and Pressler’s man in Arkansas since the early 80’s a product of Criswell’s School of the Prophets if I’m not mistaken. On Doctrine and Biblical Theology and the questions that arise. Tell me again, Joe about the great Job Criswell and Adrian Rogers, Doug Hudgins and Pressler were doing… Read more »
Well since you don’t believe in salvation through Christ, that would make sense, wouldn’t it.
Jeff, I attended in the 90’s also. Pool and Putt left shortly after I moved to the seminary. Fortunately, I had been warned and steered clear of them.
I was blessed to have very capable and very conservative mentors in Ted Cabal and Steve Lemke. Both men forced me to engage the issues and would not allow conservative views that were unsubstantiated. They were both very tough teachers, but great family men and men of faith.
Reply to From Law to Grace:
Former associate editor of the Alabama Baptist,Mark Baggett, said Judge Pressler’s definition of Cooperation was I’ll operate and You Cope.
That get’s to the heart of Trevin Wax interview about the CR. Ronnie Floyd a two percenter at Best was Patterson’s key man on the Map David Montoya reported on in the late 80’s. Such is the Heritage of the GCR.
David Montoya did not always report “facts” as they were. He often “refacted” them. David Montoya did get a rough deal once about his past life, but that does not negate his knack for “refacting” back in the day.
David Montoya has a chapter in Ed Babinski’s Leaving the Fold. I imagine it’s in the Samford Library if you want to check your facts there CB Scott.
David Montoya was on stage with Judge Pressler at Samford in October of 1990 with Wilmer C Fields son Randy, and the husband of a woman Pressler’s forces put on the SBC Excutive Committee, Mrs. Dorsett; or some such high level committee.
So two places for you to check your facts within 30 minutes of your home in good traffic.
Steve,
I don’t have to check the facts. My comment is correct. Montoya did “refact” some things. he also got a rough deal from Tenery’s paper.
While Mark Noll is definitely a great church historian, he is a Presbyterian who teaches at a Roman Catholic school, who has spent little time among Southern Baptists and has not written much about Baptist history. Even in his magnum opus, “America’s God,” he writes little about Baptists, because that was not his field. Therefore, I don’t know why Stephen keeps proclaiming Noll as the expert on what Baptists should believe and on what Baptist seminary professors should teach.
You forget what Noll said at Ridgecrest at the Inerrancy Conference in 87, it appears.
And before Notre Dame, Noll was at Billy Graham’s Wheaton College.
I’m sorry Criswell and Patterson never hired him at the School of the Prophets; the only way it appears in your eyes he would have any legitimacy.
Stephen,
Have you read Tom Nettles and L. Russ Bush “Baptists and the Bible”?
Poor Trevin. He managed to be the subject of the comment thread for a little while. Whatever topic is posted and whatever tagline is used in the title, it seems that every post of late ends up a vain battle between a handful of folks arguing over the exact same issue – liberal/moderate versus conservative. What’s really interesting is that at least two of the heavy hitters aren’t even southern baptist! I suggest these folks don the fluffy sumo wrestling suits and battle it out in a ring. We can charge admission and donate the proceeds to educating young minds… Read more »
Darby,
I would rather you send the admission fees and side bet winnings to Southeastern. After all, I have won every battle thus far and I feel I should be allowed to determine the destination of the money I have earned.
This is still a free and capitalistic nation in spite of the last national election.