I don’t have much time – sorry, I know you want another one of my 3000-word essays, don’t you?
If someone posits that God is judging America today he is generally scorned. I’ve actually heard people say that God doesn’t judge nations, only individuals. That’s a hard argument to make biblically. Isaiah and Ezekiel, as well as other prophets, devote large sections to that precise thing – the judgment of God on nations. Yes, eternal judgment is an individual thing, but temporal judgment seems to be poured out on rulers, on nations, on corporate entities.
I guess everyone turns into a dispensationalist when the subject of national judgment comes up and suddenly says, “Well, that was just in the Old Testament.” I don’t think so. Of course, this has to do with eschatology, but the future judgment of nations is real as well.
I understand why the reaction is so strong. It is against the “America is God’s chosen people” civil religion that has been so prevalent in the church during my lifetime. So much of what I’ve heard has been more about “saving America” than about the Missio Dei. I understand and I agree. We’ve bought into the revisionist history of the David Barton-types, and it has created an aberrant view of America as God’s “last, best hope” for the world and created a toxic mixture of Americanism, revivalism, culturalism, and nativism.
But that doesn’t change the fact that God judges nations. He does. Repeatedly. Why would God not judge America if he judged Moab, Edom, Babylon, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hittites, and of course, Israel and Judah?
So, what does God’s judgment look like?
Again, I don’t have time for a tome. There’s the Sodom and Gomorrah thing, of course, where fire and brimstone rain from heaven. I’m still hoping a couple of SEC schools and a baseball and football team in Massachusetts experience that, but so far, nothing.
Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 spell out the covenant blessings and curses God would pour out on Israel. No, we aren’t Israel and “if my people who are called by my name” doesn’t refer to America. But what those passages do is give us a hint at what God’s judgment on a nation might look like. In other passages, like Habakkuk and Judges 2, we gain other hints. Let me just mention what I see – you can pick it apart and call me crazy.
1. Natural disasters – we are a farming church. Many of my families make their income from Iowa corn (best in the world) and soybeans. The last three years have been disastrous and this year looks worse. My associate is in Houston right now with Disaster Relief doing mud-out because of the floods. I am not an expert and I will not opine on global warming, climate change, and such things, but it sure does seem like nature is going crazy, leading to economic disaster.
2. Leaders who debase – this is a vicious cycle. Bad leaders debase a people. A debased people deserve and often get leaders who lead them into further debasement. Unless God works a miracle, we will have either Trump or Hillary as our leader. We will be getting what we deserve – liars, adulterers, debauched, debased, amoral leadership. I’m not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg, but the fact that WE CHOSE these two is certainly a sign of our own depravity and the fact that one will be president is interesting at least.
3. Economic debacle – it is described in Haggai as “putting money in a purse with holes in it.” Economic deprivation, disaster, and debacle is often a sign of God’s judgment.
4. Defeat by enemies – this is a dangerous one, because only Israel was promised victory over its foes for obedience, not America. But our inability to come up with a sensible solution to any problem, our floundering efforts to fight our enemies is significant. James Wood observed that we are fighting a worldwide battle against terror, and our president is mostly concerned about getting men the right to use women’s bathrooms. That’s an exaggeration, certainly, but it is significant. We can’t seem to solve anything.
5. Losing our kids – this is again a judgment God put on Israel, that they would lose their children to the enemy as a sign of God’s disfavor.
There are all kinds of eschatology, ecclesiological, and theological issues that come to play here. I understand that.
But as I look at America, I can’t help but wonder is God is judging this nation.
Think about this. At this crucial time, at the very worst possible time, Antonin Scalia died. (C’mon conspiracy theorists – it wasn’t a murder.) If a Supreme needed to go, I could have nominated several others. Scalia was the probably the most important figure in the American conservative movement. Boom. Gone. Is that not at least a wild coincidence?
- Natural disasters.
- Terrorism we cannot seem to deal with.
- A paralyzed and ineffective government.
- Leadership like we have.
Is it wrong to wonder if God is pouring out some judgment on this nation and the nations of the world?
What do we do?
Well, the very best thing we can do is the work of the church. Proclaim Christ crucified and risen. Reach out in his name. Pray for God to work in power. Yes, all of that. I’m not sure the answer is more politics, but more church. More Jesus. More gospel. More grace.
But at this point, I’m not sure.
I’m just wondering why we ridicule anyone who sees the hand of God’s judgment in all this.
(NOTE: It is ALWAYS dangerous to point the finger. “God is judging us because of the gays.” “God is judging us because of this or that.” God judges nations, it seems, when they reach a certain tipping point of sin. I dont’ understand it all, because I’m not God. One thing I notice when we point the finger, it’s always at someone else. God is judging us because of THEM!)
Thank you for organizing and sharing your perspectives.
Dave, I’ve been saying something similar to what you’ve just said here. I’m really wondering if God’s judgment is not falling on the USA. You’ve given a lot of good reasons that show that judgment may be falling on us. And, with all of the Terrorists attacks, severe flooding, tornado activity, economic woes, addictions(alcohol, drugs, sexual, etc), marriages falling apart, families hurting bad in all kinds of ways, and the increase in sexual sins-from the homosexuals becoming more aggressive and our govt. okaying homosexuality and big businesses pushing it and people celebrating it, and there’s just so many other things… Read more »
Okay, I’ll bite. Since I have not firmly made up my mind on this question, my response is not a refutation of what you say here as much as it is some questions that come to mind when I ponder this. 1. When comparing OT texts and apocalyptic texts to NT texts—and especially those NT texts that (from a dispensational perspective) have to do with the Church and the Church Age—the relative paucity of references to God’s dealings with collective entities—such as nations—is striking. Also, it seems to me the judgment of God on other nations that are not Israel/Judah… Read more »
Ninevah repented as a city. Judgment also takes the form of God-giving-them-over-to as we read in. Romans 1 and pointedly the last verses that say: 8 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the… Read more »
I meant the above to be a general reply except for the Ninevah thought.
Mike,
Nineveh is a good example. There does appear to be—especially in the OT context—such a thing as collective repentance. I am wrestling with how to make sense of this theologically, though, with regard to how it relates to the NT (and generally biblical?) injunctive to personally repent.
Thinking about it, I just remembered the example of Abraham and his intercession for Sodom, and how, at least in his mind—and apparently, God’s response—collective repentance is somehow tied to the number of individuals within a group who repent. This concept is not fleshed out in greater detail in other parts of Scripture, that I can remember, though. Can anyone else help me out here?
Sorry, it’s not that I don’t want to respond, but I’m running a rummage sale to get rid if junk and raise money for our Africa trip. Solid stream if customers.
David, the overall biblical picture of world politics reveals that all earthly kingdoms are temporary. While Bible students debate the identities of the nations in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream statue (Dan 2:31-45), that’s really not the point. The point is that ALL of the nations suffered the same fate; they were all struck and crushed by the “stone cut without human hands” that grew into a mountain that filled the entire earth (vv. 34-35), a kingdom that would endure forever (v. 44). Daniel himself is part of a pattern in the scripture that pictures our role — we are “resident aliens,” living… Read more »
We talked about this last Wednesday night, from Haggai actually. Some thought corporate sin was a man made idea, since that phrase is not in the Bible. I pointed out that God judges not only Israel but all nations in the OT. Jesus judges the churches corporately in Revelation, and while America won’t stand before the judgement throne, we will be responsible for our actions as citizens. Leonard Ravenhill has a little book called “Sodom had no Bible”, implying he judgement on us will be greater. Maybe the judgement is on just the church, maybe America as a whole. But… Read more »
“we are reaping what we have sown” Three agricultural laws that apply to America: You reap what you sow, more than you sow, later than you sow. Make America great again?!! As Alexis de Tocqueville said nearly 200 years ago: “America is great because America is good. If America ceases to be good, it will cease to be great.” Spiraling deeper into moral chaos, the core of America has ceased to be good. Is God judging America? Yes. The innocent blood of unborn millions cry out against us. The hedge is down; the enemy is coming over the wall. Prayerless,… Read more »
I’d say if you look at Romans 1:18f and see the various ways God shows his wrath by giving people over to their sins and darkened minds b/c they worship idols over him, you’ll pretty much find our society. Our idols look different, but the sins and resulting behaviors from being given over are all there. So, yes, it seems that God’s wrath has been being poured out across this land for quite a while. (and all the more why we need to persevere faithfully, loving God and loving others, while holding fast to and graciously proclaiming the gospel–repent and… Read more »
God has been judging what we call America before the White Man arrived. To me the question should be: Is God pouring out His judgement on America? I say No. Things will get much worse before God pours his judgement on the World. Droughts had a much greater affect on farmers and communities a 100 years ago. People starved to death. Not today. Inappropriate timing of deaths of national leaders has been happening since the inception of this country. We have been in some type of war in this country more than we have had peace time. The hand of… Read more »
John K,
Interesting comments. The Day of the Lord is indeed a future event when God’s wrath will ultimately be poured out upon all unrepentant humanity. I think the question is, to what extent is His judgment meted in an intermediate manner in the meantime. Military overthrows and climatic and agricultural disasters seem to be tied to divine judgment in the OT. Is this specifically an OT phenomenon, though? It does seem to be emphasized more in the OT than the NT.
“I think the question is, to what extent is His judgment meted in an intermediate manner in the meantime.”
I think I would need to know the mind of God more than what He has revealed to answer that question.
I know he has given us a charge and a guide to accomplish his will. His will for us is to make Disciples. His meting is Christ.
John K,
So far, I think I agree with you on this. Still waiting for further input to the contrary, though.
I think we are seeing a fuller extent of the depravity of humans. The vale is being lowered and we are seeing people’s hearts with our eyes. In a way I believe it is God’s blessing and warning. It’s good to see what some have suspected all along and it is opening other’s eyes to the fact that there is deep routed depravity in this world and it is shocking but this is just a glimpse I believe, it is even deeper than what we are seeing in my opinion.
I also think we are seeing our idols for what they really are and have been for a very long time.
Yes, God does judge nations, and he raises up and takes down their leaders. For example: Psalm 75:7 But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another. Daniel 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: (I see no reason to suppose this is an OT principle only; Cf. Romans 13:1.) And, yes, let’s not just point the finger elsewhere: 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house… Read more »
John K. Had a good reminder that there have always been terrible happenings, and for the most part, they caused more suffering and death than they do now. We all have a tendancy to think our own present troubles are the beginning of the end, I remember the republican Christians thinking Bill Clinton would usher in the great tribulation… Regarding the primary question, it seems safe to say God IS judging America….but at the same time is still blessing it in ways too. Further, I’m not sure what different action we could or should take if our answer to the… Read more »
If God is judging America today His wrath pales by comparison with the wrath that He poured out on Sodom, Gomorrah, and Egypt. Certainly God is sovereign and His hands are on the nations to raise up and bring down. However, the emphasis of His judgment throughout the church age is on individuals. I do believe Matthew 25 teaches a Judgment of the Nations during the End Time events. (I know some believe this chapter teaches salvation by philanthropy but I believe it is nations.) Another thought would be if God is judging certain nations then the reciprocal would be… Read more »
Cromwell famous quote is my favorite quote in times and discussions like these. What do we do?
“Trust in God but mind to keep your powder dry.”
Luke 10:27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” That’s a tall order and I would say one that is impossible to obey with any kind of perfection but it is what we are called to do. As a sovereign grace believer and a dabbler in church history, it’s apparent to me that the vast majority of the world has forgotten God altogether and even among the professing believers, it’s rare to find… Read more »
I will say this. I believe that sin has pre-packaged in it certain consequences. I believe this principle applies both personally and corporatively. I also believe it is God Himself who designed the laws by which the universe functions, including the law of sowing and reaping. So, yes, in that sense, God is judging America, I suppose.
Was America ever as special to God as many “American” Christians would like to believe? There are those American Christians who believe that God himself framed the Constitution; that being patriotic is synonymous with being a Christian, and that the American dream of Capitalism was endowed by the Creator. But the only freedom God ever cared about is the freedom that can only be found in Jesus Christ His Son. However, most Christians including myself would agree that in the past God “blessed” America for her worthy and noble intentions. And though his hand pressed down on this nation before… Read more »
Amen Amber!
“Those who claim to live in Him must live as Jesus lived.” America is a mess because the church is a mess. The average church member resembles the world which has created Trump and Hillary, rather than Christlikeness.
“As He is, so are we to be in this world” (1 John 4:17). We are not in far too many churches.
Max, You said, “America is a mess because the church is a mess. The average church member resembles the world which has created Trump and Hillary, rather than Christlikeness.” I don’t disagree with your assessment of the Church, but I disagree that this is the cause of America’s moral state. The world was a mess before there was a Church–since Adam brought sin into the world. It’s interesting that when Paul spoke to government leaders, such as Agrippa (and, undoubtedly, Ceasar), he did not plead for a less depraved government or righteous laws, but only preached the gospel to them.… Read more »
“Another reason the Church resembles the world so much is that so much of the world has been brought into the Church without insisting on repentance and transformation.” No doubt about it! The Church could use a healthy dose of both personal and corporate repentance, leading to more “transformed” belief and practice. I agree that there are various reasons for the moral decline in America, but I still think a major contributor is the overall condition of the organized church. I was young and now am old … I’m even old enough to remember when the Church was counter-culture to… Read more »
“Though it may subtle now, it will be like all things in prophecy pertaining to the end; a slow progression then it will increase rapidly.” I’ll shout another AMEN, Amber! I truly believe we are seeing a progressive release of judgment, that may very well end in a dread release of judgment on America … unless we (the church) repents and gets back on track with the Great Commission entrusted to us. There must be a genuine revival in the church first before we see a spiritual awakening in the nation. But the church at large seems satisfied to live… Read more »
God did not write the Constitution, but the Constitution was written with God in mind. Our government was formed on the Biblical ideas that sinful men cannot be trusted, and that freedom is God-given and morally right (thus, it is expressed in the form of “rights”). The need for representation by accountable men of conscience rather than rule by anonymous majority or rule by an unaccountable king, the need for the authority of law to be checked by the Constitution, and the need for three branches of government to be checked by each other, came directly from Scripture and the… Read more »