I don’t have much time – sorry, I know you want another one of my 3000-word essays, don’t you?
If someone posits that God is judging America today he is generally scorned. I’ve actually heard people say that God doesn’t judge nations, only individuals. That’s a hard argument to make biblically. Isaiah and Ezekiel, as well as other prophets, devote large sections to that precise thing – the judgment of God on nations. Yes, eternal judgment is an individual thing, but temporal judgment seems to be poured out on rulers, on nations, on corporate entities.
I guess everyone turns into a dispensationalist when the subject of national judgment comes up and suddenly says, “Well, that was just in the Old Testament.” I don’t think so. Of course, this has to do with eschatology, but the future judgment of nations is real as well.
I understand why the reaction is so strong. It is against the “America is God’s chosen people” civil religion that has been so prevalent in the church during my lifetime. So much of what I’ve heard has been more about “saving America” than about the Missio Dei. I understand and I agree. We’ve bought into the revisionist history of the David Barton-types, and it has created an aberrant view of America as God’s “last, best hope” for the world and created a toxic mixture of Americanism, revivalism, culturalism, and nativism.
But that doesn’t change the fact that God judges nations. He does. Repeatedly. Why would God not judge America if he judged Moab, Edom, Babylon, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hittites, and of course, Israel and Judah?
So, what does God’s judgment look like?
Again, I don’t have time for a tome. There’s the Sodom and Gomorrah thing, of course, where fire and brimstone rain from heaven. I’m still hoping a couple of SEC schools and a baseball and football team in Massachusetts experience that, but so far, nothing.
Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 spell out the covenant blessings and curses God would pour out on Israel. No, we aren’t Israel and “if my people who are called by my name” doesn’t refer to America. But what those passages do is give us a hint at what God’s judgment on a nation might look like. In other passages, like Habakkuk and Judges 2, we gain other hints. Let me just mention what I see – you can pick it apart and call me crazy.
1. Natural disasters – we are a farming church. Many of my families make their income from Iowa corn (best in the world) and soybeans. The last three years have been disastrous and this year looks worse. My associate is in Houston right now with Disaster Relief doing mud-out because of the floods. I am not an expert and I will not opine on global warming, climate change, and such things, but it sure does seem like nature is going crazy, leading to economic disaster.
2. Leaders who debase – this is a vicious cycle. Bad leaders debase a people. A debased people deserve and often get leaders who lead them into further debasement. Unless God works a miracle, we will have either Trump or Hillary as our leader. We will be getting what we deserve – liars, adulterers, debauched, debased, amoral leadership. I’m not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg, but the fact that WE CHOSE these two is certainly a sign of our own depravity and the fact that one will be president is interesting at least.
3. Economic debacle – it is described in Haggai as “putting money in a purse with holes in it.” Economic deprivation, disaster, and debacle is often a sign of God’s judgment.
4. Defeat by enemies – this is a dangerous one, because only Israel was promised victory over its foes for obedience, not America. But our inability to come up with a sensible solution to any problem, our floundering efforts to fight our enemies is significant. James Wood observed that we are fighting a worldwide battle against terror, and our president is mostly concerned about getting men the right to use women’s bathrooms. That’s an exaggeration, certainly, but it is significant. We can’t seem to solve anything.
5. Losing our kids – this is again a judgment God put on Israel, that they would lose their children to the enemy as a sign of God’s disfavor.
There are all kinds of eschatology, ecclesiological, and theological issues that come to play here. I understand that.
But as I look at America, I can’t help but wonder is God is judging this nation.
Think about this. At this crucial time, at the very worst possible time, Antonin Scalia died. (C’mon conspiracy theorists – it wasn’t a murder.) If a Supreme needed to go, I could have nominated several others. Scalia was the probably the most important figure in the American conservative movement. Boom. Gone. Is that not at least a wild coincidence?
- Natural disasters.
- Terrorism we cannot seem to deal with.
- A paralyzed and ineffective government.
- Leadership like we have.
Is it wrong to wonder if God is pouring out some judgment on this nation and the nations of the world?
What do we do?
Well, the very best thing we can do is the work of the church. Proclaim Christ crucified and risen. Reach out in his name. Pray for God to work in power. Yes, all of that. I’m not sure the answer is more politics, but more church. More Jesus. More gospel. More grace.
But at this point, I’m not sure.
I’m just wondering why we ridicule anyone who sees the hand of God’s judgment in all this.
(NOTE: It is ALWAYS dangerous to point the finger. “God is judging us because of the gays.” “God is judging us because of this or that.” God judges nations, it seems, when they reach a certain tipping point of sin. I dont’ understand it all, because I’m not God. One thing I notice when we point the finger, it’s always at someone else. God is judging us because of THEM!)
Thank you for organizing and sharing your perspectives.
Dave,
I’ve been saying something similar to what you’ve just said here. I’m really wondering if God’s judgment is not falling on the USA. You’ve given a lot of good reasons that show that judgment may be falling on us. And, with all of the Terrorists attacks, severe flooding, tornado activity, economic woes, addictions(alcohol, drugs, sexual, etc), marriages falling apart, families hurting bad in all kinds of ways, and the increase in sexual sins-from the homosexuals becoming more aggressive and our govt. okaying homosexuality and big businesses pushing it and people celebrating it, and there’s just so many other things that could pointed out, that it does make one wonder if we’re not beginning to experience the judgment of God.
I really felt when the American people voted in Obama, that God was giving them what they asked for….much like God giving Israel a king, even though He didn’t want them to have a king. So, He gave them Saul. And, they paid the price for it. So, we got Obama. And now, it looks like we’re going to get either Trump or Hillary. Gasp. Sigh. SMH. Once again, America has asked for the worst, and we’re about to get it…..AND, every bad thing that goes along with that.
Of course, I totally agree with you about the solution. We need Jesus. We need revival in our Churches. We need another Great Awakening to sweep across our land. And, I agree with Dr. Adrian Rogers….that when it gets darker and darker in our society, then the Light of Jesus will shine forth more brightly. We do have hope. We always have hope. We, who are saved and love the Lord, need to shine that Light to this dark, dark world. We need to preach the Gospel and lift up Jesus.
Good word, on this fine, chilly morning, Dave.
David
Okay, I’ll bite. Since I have not firmly made up my mind on this question, my response is not a refutation of what you say here as much as it is some questions that come to mind when I ponder this.
1. When comparing OT texts and apocalyptic texts to NT texts—and especially those NT texts that (from a dispensational perspective) have to do with the Church and the Church Age—the relative paucity of references to God’s dealings with collective entities—such as nations—is striking. Also, it seems to me the judgment of God on other nations that are not Israel/Judah in the OT are generally tied to the treatment those nations give to Israel/Judah.
2. It seems to me that God’s focus in the NT Church Age is more on redeeming individuals from out of the nations than it is redeeming or Christianizing the nations as collective entities. Whether we think of “nations” as ethnic groups, or as political units (i.e. nation-states), they all appear to be comprised of a mixture of redeemed and unredeemed individuals. The judgment of God under the NT dispensation, as I understand it, is tied specifically to one’s redemptive relationship to Christ. God does discipline redeemed individuals, as well as local churches collectively (see Rev. 2–3). But His judgment is upon all humanity apart from individual faith in Christ.
3. According to Jesus’ teaching in Luke 13:1–5, it is problematic to try to ascertain the relative worthiness of divine judgment of one collective over against another collective. Barring repentance—which, as I understand it, is essentially personal—we are all equally guilty before God and worthy of His judgments.
All that being said, I am eager to hear any and all biblical/theological responses to the line of reasoning I lay out here, as my mind is far from made up on this issue.
Ninevah repented as a city.
Judgment also takes the form of God-giving-them-over-to as we read in. Romans 1 and pointedly the last verses that say:
8 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord, He has trampled at the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored…
I meant the above to be a general reply except for the Ninevah thought.
Mike,
Nineveh is a good example. There does appear to be—especially in the OT context—such a thing as collective repentance. I am wrestling with how to make sense of this theologically, though, with regard to how it relates to the NT (and generally biblical?) injunctive to personally repent.
Thinking about it, I just remembered the example of Abraham and his intercession for Sodom, and how, at least in his mind—and apparently, God’s response—collective repentance is somehow tied to the number of individuals within a group who repent. This concept is not fleshed out in greater detail in other parts of Scripture, that I can remember, though. Can anyone else help me out here?
Sorry, it’s not that I don’t want to respond, but I’m running a rummage sale to get rid if junk and raise money for our Africa trip. Solid stream if customers.
David, the overall biblical picture of world politics reveals that all earthly kingdoms are temporary. While Bible students debate the identities of the nations in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream statue (Dan 2:31-45), that’s really not the point. The point is that ALL of the nations suffered the same fate; they were all struck and crushed by the “stone cut without human hands” that grew into a mountain that filled the entire earth (vv. 34-35), a kingdom that would endure forever (v. 44).
Daniel himself is part of a pattern in the scripture that pictures our role — we are “resident aliens,” living in a kingdom that is not truly our home. Or as Paul presents it, “for our citizenship is in heaven” (Phil 3:20). The NT presents us as “resident aliens” (1 Pet 1:1) and in a way, living “in Babylon” (1 Pet 5:13), and as such we need to remember where our true citizenship lies. While we are here we are to “seek the welfare of the city” (Jer 29:7) where we live, but not place our hearts there. We may owe Caesar our taxes (Mark 12:15-17), but we do not owe him the love and loyalty that is directed only to God (Mark 12:29-30). When we pay our taxes we do so because we are obeying our Lord’s command, not out of reverence or loyalty to any earthly ruler or kingdom.
Is God judging the U.S.? The U.S. is answerable to God, because “Jesus is Lord,” the U.S. is not. God’s ‘judgment’ on sinfulness in the Bible takes different forms. Sometimes the judgment is an attack from external forces, like a lion that attacks (Hos 5:14). At other times it is more subtle, like rottenness or decay that slowly eats from the inside (Hos 5:12). It’s like God’s judgment on our personal sin — sometimes it is some tragic event that God causes or allows that stops us in our tracks, and at other times is is simply God “handing us over” to the choices we have made for ourselves. God allows us to become the person our choices have determined. It is a maxim of history that seldom are nations defeated from the outside; instead they decay from the inside. But then, Christ didn’t come to save nations or political entities, those are temporary. Instead Christ came to save souls and incorporate them into a kingdom that will “endure forever.” That’s where our hearts and our focus should lie.
We talked about this last Wednesday night, from Haggai actually. Some thought corporate sin was a man made idea, since that phrase is not in the Bible. I pointed out that God judges not only Israel but all nations in the OT. Jesus judges the churches corporately in Revelation, and while America won’t stand before the judgement throne, we will be responsible for our actions as citizens.
Leonard Ravenhill has a little book called “Sodom had no Bible”, implying he judgement on us will be greater. Maybe the judgement is on just the church, maybe America as a whole. But we are reaping what we have sown.
“we are reaping what we have sown”
Three agricultural laws that apply to America: You reap what you sow, more than you sow, later than you sow.
Make America great again?!! As Alexis de Tocqueville said nearly 200 years ago: “America is great because America is good. If America ceases to be good, it will cease to be great.” Spiraling deeper into moral chaos, the core of America has ceased to be good.
Is God judging America? Yes. The innocent blood of unborn millions cry out against us. The hedge is down; the enemy is coming over the wall. Prayerless, the church is powerless; the devil ain’t scared when most churchmen get up in the morning. Repent or else …
I’d say if you look at Romans 1:18f and see the various ways God shows his wrath by giving people over to their sins and darkened minds b/c they worship idols over him, you’ll pretty much find our society.
Our idols look different, but the sins and resulting behaviors from being given over are all there.
So, yes, it seems that God’s wrath has been being poured out across this land for quite a while.
(and all the more why we need to persevere faithfully, loving God and loving others, while holding fast to and graciously proclaiming the gospel–repent and believe.)
God has been judging what we call America before the White Man arrived. To me the question should be:
Is God pouring out His judgement on America?
I say No. Things will get much worse before God pours his judgement on the World.
Droughts had a much greater affect on farmers and communities a 100 years ago. People starved to death. Not today.
Inappropriate timing of deaths of national leaders has been happening since the inception of this country.
We have been in some type of war in this country more than we have had peace time.
The hand of God’s judgment in all this?
My God is an active participating God. Although usually not how most followers think of him.
I’ll know when God pours out His judgement, just like most of you will.
This ain’t it.
John K,
Interesting comments. The Day of the Lord is indeed a future event when God’s wrath will ultimately be poured out upon all unrepentant humanity. I think the question is, to what extent is His judgment meted in an intermediate manner in the meantime. Military overthrows and climatic and agricultural disasters seem to be tied to divine judgment in the OT. Is this specifically an OT phenomenon, though? It does seem to be emphasized more in the OT than the NT.
“I think the question is, to what extent is His judgment meted in an intermediate manner in the meantime.”
I think I would need to know the mind of God more than what He has revealed to answer that question.
I know he has given us a charge and a guide to accomplish his will. His will for us is to make Disciples. His meting is Christ.
John K,
So far, I think I agree with you on this. Still waiting for further input to the contrary, though.
I think we are seeing a fuller extent of the depravity of humans. The vale is being lowered and we are seeing people’s hearts with our eyes. In a way I believe it is God’s blessing and warning. It’s good to see what some have suspected all along and it is opening other’s eyes to the fact that there is deep routed depravity in this world and it is shocking but this is just a glimpse I believe, it is even deeper than what we are seeing in my opinion.
I also think we are seeing our idols for what they really are and have been for a very long time.
Yes, God does judge nations, and he raises up and takes down their leaders. For example:
Psalm 75:7 But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.
Daniel 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
(I see no reason to suppose this is an OT principle only; Cf. Romans 13:1.)
And, yes, let’s not just point the finger elsewhere:
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Finally, I think this can be an exciting time for Christians in the U.S., if we don’t decide to be depressed and down in the dumps. I don’t have all the answers, but as churches we never should have been depending on the politicians in the first place. It may not be long before we can tell the difference between Bible believers and nominal Christians! (Maybe in the not too distant future it won’t even be beneficial to be a nominal Christian in America.)
John K. Had a good reminder that there have always been terrible happenings, and for the most part, they caused more suffering and death than they do now.
We all have a tendancy to think our own present troubles are the beginning of the end, I remember the republican Christians thinking Bill Clinton would usher in the great tribulation…
Regarding the primary question, it seems safe to say God IS judging America….but at the same time is still blessing it in ways too. Further, I’m not sure what different action we could or should take if our answer to the question is yes or no?
We hope in God, we don’t fear this world, read and head Isaiah 8:11-13…and seek to spread that hope in Christ to the Christians and non Christians around us.
If God is judging America today His wrath pales by comparison with the wrath that He poured out on Sodom, Gomorrah, and Egypt. Certainly God is sovereign and His hands are on the nations to raise up and bring down. However, the emphasis of His judgment throughout the church age is on individuals. I do believe Matthew 25 teaches a Judgment of the Nations during the End Time events. (I know some believe this chapter teaches salvation by philanthropy but I believe it is nations.)
Another thought would be if God is judging certain nations then the reciprocal would be true that He is blessing certain nations. A quick search revealed that Norway is now one of the most prosperous nations in the world and is composed of more atheist than believers. How can this be? Is God building up Norway to be an instrument of His wrath?
While not dogmatic, I am more comfortable in teaching God’s judgment is falling on individuals and what they have done with the Good News of Jesus Christ’s death, burial and resurrection for the sins of the world.
Cromwell famous quote is my favorite quote in times and discussions like these. What do we do?
“Trust in God but mind to keep your powder dry.”
Luke 10:27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
That’s a tall order and I would say one that is impossible to obey with any kind of perfection but it is what we are called to do. As a sovereign grace believer and a dabbler in church history, it’s apparent to me that the vast majority of the world has forgotten God altogether and even among the professing believers, it’s rare to find someone who reads the word daily. In that sense, I agree that we are experiencing what is described in Romans 1 and we as the world collective are getting exactly what we asked for.
I also understand that God has a plan and nothing will stop it. While God does discipline his elect, I wouldn’t call that a judgement but that doesn’t mean we are immune to the consequences of the rest of the world running gleefully into hell. I think we are just experiencing the results of of humanity withdrawing from God and the end result of a moral void. I also think we will see much worse before the real judgement begins.
I will say this. I believe that sin has pre-packaged in it certain consequences. I believe this principle applies both personally and corporatively. I also believe it is God Himself who designed the laws by which the universe functions, including the law of sowing and reaping. So, yes, in that sense, God is judging America, I suppose.
Was America ever as special to God as many “American” Christians would like to believe? There are those American Christians who believe that God himself framed the Constitution; that being patriotic is synonymous with being a Christian, and that the American dream of Capitalism was endowed by the Creator. But the only freedom God ever cared about is the freedom that can only be found in Jesus Christ His Son. However, most Christians including myself would agree that in the past God “blessed” America for her worthy and noble intentions. And though his hand pressed down on this nation before for her sin, he also lifted his hand. When it comes to God, his discipline is synonymous with his love, the substance of all his blessings. But do those blessings still apply?
If ever there were a sign that God has left America for good, it is as Dave mentioned our two choices for leadership. “…Trump or Hillary as our leader. We will be getting what we deserve – liars, adulterers, debauched, debased, amoral leadership.” (The only thing I would add to that is for many they will be getting exactly what they want and who they can identify with.) America no longer has a choice between good and good, good and bad, or the lesser of two evils. Our choice is evil and evil.
The last 100 years produced more in the way of technology and human knowledge than did the last 10,000 years. Technological advances made in the last 100 years pale in comparison to the ones made in the last 20 years. The technology produced in the last 20 years probably did more to cause humans to sin than did the all technology ever produced before it. The moral decline in this country over the last 100 years pales in comparison to the moral decline in the last 8 years under this president’s leadership. Though it may subtle now, it will be like all things in prophecy pertaining to the end; a slow progression then it will increase rapidly. The last days began with Jesus. The end begins when God turns his back on us. As predicted in Romans 1, God has given the world over to itself.
Yes, God is judging the world and America is a part of that world. What do we do? “Those who claim to live in Him must live as Jesus lived.” 1 John 2:6. Then we finish carrying out the Great Commission and the rest will take care of itself.
Amen Amber!
“Those who claim to live in Him must live as Jesus lived.” America is a mess because the church is a mess. The average church member resembles the world which has created Trump and Hillary, rather than Christlikeness.
“As He is, so are we to be in this world” (1 John 4:17). We are not in far too many churches.
Max,
You said, “America is a mess because the church is a mess. The average church member resembles the world which has created Trump and Hillary, rather than Christlikeness.”
I don’t disagree with your assessment of the Church, but I disagree that this is the cause of America’s moral state. The world was a mess before there was a Church–since Adam brought sin into the world. It’s interesting that when Paul spoke to government leaders, such as Agrippa (and, undoubtedly, Ceasar), he did not plead for a less depraved government or righteous laws, but only preached the gospel to them. And when the government was throwing Christians to the lions, the Church did not assume that they were to blame.
Wasn’t it Wesley who noted the cycle that prosperity was both a blessing of God, resulting from living by a godly faith, and a curse of sorts that lulled believers into a lax faith and practice, whereby they fell again into poverty, which drove them into revival, which again resulted in blessing? America is as prosperous as any people has ever been. Yes, we still have poverty; but the average believer is doing well enough that there is no pressing need to pray to God. So the Church tends to decline spiritually under prosperity.
Another reason the Church resembles the world so much is that so much of the world has been brought into the Church without insisting on repentance and transformation. Say the sinner’s prayer, get baptized in water, and you may be teaching Sunday School before you know it–and voting on church policy (and which Pastor to ‘hire’).
“Another reason the Church resembles the world so much is that so much of the world has been brought into the Church without insisting on repentance and transformation.”
No doubt about it! The Church could use a healthy dose of both personal and corporate repentance, leading to more “transformed” belief and practice.
I agree that there are various reasons for the moral decline in America, but I still think a major contributor is the overall condition of the organized church. I was young and now am old … I’m even old enough to remember when the Church was counter-culture to the world, rather than a sub-culture of it! In the community I grew up in, most citizens were members of the local Southern Baptist church (except a handful in the little Methodist church across town). They were a faithful bunch who even showed up to pray on Wednesday night prayer meetings (in the days when churches had those regularly before canceling them for lack of interest). My most vivid memory as a child was seeing the altar full of weeping, praying folks. Instead of organized, those good people agonized! I sincerely believe that the very presence of the church and the witness of those Christians throughout the week hindered the proliferation of evil in the community. Things have changed; I guess we got over that sort of religion. Some folks call me nostalgic, longing for a day that America will never see again. Perhaps, but I lived it and experienced what could be again if God’s people would pray and live as they ought.
“Though it may subtle now, it will be like all things in prophecy pertaining to the end; a slow progression then it will increase rapidly.”
I’ll shout another AMEN, Amber! I truly believe we are seeing a progressive release of judgment, that may very well end in a dread release of judgment on America … unless we (the church) repents and gets back on track with the Great Commission entrusted to us.
There must be a genuine revival in the church first before we see a spiritual awakening in the nation. But the church at large seems satisfied to live without revival, as evidenced by an outbreak of apathy and prayerlessness in both pulpit and pew. (At least that’s the situation in my area – sure hope it’s different where you live.)
Oh and by the way … if any of you guys think women can’t preach, listen to what Amber has to say! Best sermon I’ve heard in a while!
God did not write the Constitution, but the Constitution was written with God in mind. Our government was formed on the Biblical ideas that sinful men cannot be trusted, and that freedom is God-given and morally right (thus, it is expressed in the form of “rights”). The need for representation by accountable men of conscience rather than rule by anonymous majority or rule by an unaccountable king, the need for the authority of law to be checked by the Constitution, and the need for three branches of government to be checked by each other, came directly from Scripture and the idea that a sinful, fallen human race needs checked by God and His principles.
America has been blessed so much for so long only because so many of its people lived out a real faith in Christ. As the number of such believers lessens, their influence in our government lessens, and God’s blessings become lessened or even withdrawn as a matter of reaping what is sown. If there will ever be, as Dr. Willingham reminds us to pray for, another Great Awakening, then America might once again have large percentage of true believers. But short of that, we’d better get ready to live in a world not much morally different from that in which the early Church lived.
Because the principles of Christianity brought about the advances in Western civilization, we tend to think that the kinds of persecution experienced by the early Church, such as being thrown to the lions, were eliminated by civilization (no civilized people would ever go back to such barbarism). However, it not modern civilization that keeps us from returning to such persecution, but only the moral restraint of the vestiges of Christian influence. When Christian influence sufficiently dwindles, such persecution will return with a vengeance.