Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. (Romans 12:15)
I’ve always thought the hard part of this verse is what comes after the comma. In fact most of my focus on this passage has centered around obeying the second half of this verse. We’ve all had experiences of insensitive people who refused to weep with us when we were weeping. Nobody wants to be that guy who laughs at a funeral.
Picture the scene.
A group of guys are hanging out enjoying a ball game. They’re surrounded by hot wings, big screen televisions, and other faithful fans. They are having a great time…at least until Melancholy Mark shows up. He’s the male version of Debbie Downer. Though everyone else is having a grand time Mark informs everyone that he just got laid off from work and he isn’t sure how he is going to pay his light bill.
The party comes screeching to a halt.
How Do We Apply Romans 12:15?
Now, don’t get me wrong these dudes are required by Romans 12:15 to mourn with Mark because he is mourning. To go on partying and downing chicken wings while their buddy Mark can’t pay his light bill would be insensitive.
But I’m not sure that stopping the party means that we are done applying this verse. What about Mark? Does Romans 12:15 have any bearing on him, to rejoice with those who rejoice?
I understand that rejoicing over chicken wings and a ball game is much less significant than losing a job. The two don’t weigh the same on a scale of importance. But I believe my larger point stands. Suffering isn’t always the trump card and when we find ourselves mourning it isn’t ours to play to bring others down to our level of gloom.
At various times you will find yourself on either side of this verse. When Paul tells someone to mourn with those who mourn he is speaking to someone that would not at present be mourning if it weren’t for the pain of his brother. Likewise, when he tells someone to rejoice with those who rejoice he is speaking to someone that would not at present be rejoicing if it weren’t for the joy of his brother.
This helps us see that we apply this verse based upon which side of the equation we are on. When I am mourning, my responsibility in this verse is to rejoice with those rejoicing. Likewise when I’m rejoicing, my responsibility is to mourn with those who are mourning.
What This Means For The Church
I’m convinced that this verse is exceedingly counter-cultural. There was once a time when the church and culture erred on the side of a faux joviality in the face of real suffering. I’m convinced that we live in a day and age when doubt has become a sexy virtue. And with it suffering is worn as a badge of honor and played as a trump card in relationships.
If I’m suffering then I play the Romans 12:15 trump card to get you to come down to my gloom. If you don’t do it then I can write you off as an insensitive jerk that barely models the weeping Christ.
But what I really should do is apply Romans 12:15 to my own heart and realize that even in the midst of my gloom I have a responsibility to celebrate a wedding, to be delighted in a baptism, to be overjoyed in discipleship.
We cannot follow our culture in this regard. To do so is to sacrifice the joy that Christ purchased on our behalf. It is to concede defeat and to live as if Christ didn’t come to destroy the works of the enemy. Yes, we still mourn. But our mourning is not as those without hope. Every ounce of mourning is tinged with rejoicing. Just as every bit of rejoicing this side of eternity is tempered with mourning.
When we find ourselves suffering let us not pretend that darkness trumps the morning. Instead let us be a people who fight for an already purchased joy in Christ.
Mike.
I hope you will include this in your upcoming commentary series on the book of Romans.
I am buying it.
Thanks!
Glenn, I don’t think I’ll be publishing a commentary on Romans anytime soon. Unless I can convince a publisher to let me cut and paste the one written by Tom Schreiner.
I can’t imagine what a man must think to write a commentary on Romans. “I think I have a perspective that can top all those other guys that have written on the book.”
Thanks. No.
I’m still looking for a publisher for my commentary on Proverbs 1-9.
Mike,
I would def. buy your commentary on Romans!!!
This is a good admonition.
The only danger I see is that many people who suffer depression don’t tell anyone and act like everything is okay because they believe (sometimes rightly, but usually with greater weight than what’s true) that no one really cares. Telling them to act happy so they rejoice with those who rejoice only encourages them to continue hiding what they already feel.
There’s plenty of people who are popular because they are always upbeat and they are adept at encouraging people to join their bliss. You really don’t see a lot of people looking for those hiding what they need help mourning. That’s not popular.
So while we need to call on those who suffer to join with those who already have tons of people rejoicing with them, lest they fall into envy, few if any care about helping someone mourn, lest they fall into selfish comfort.
Thanks, Jim. I would note that nowhere have I encouraged people who are mourning or depressed to “act happy”. I’m saying that in the midst of our mourning we ought to pursue legitimate rejoicing. Maybe…just maybe…such a thing could help someone get of the rut of self-focus that so often is depression. (I say this as one that battles the black dog on a somewhat regular occasion).
And I’ve got to be honest and say that I think it is a myth that “few if any care about helping someone mourn”. Just monitor Facebook for a season and tell me if it is people rejoicing together or mourning together.
You are right in that you didn’t encourage people to “act happy”, but I fear that someone would take it that way. Like you, I have suffered depression and during a bout I might read that meaning into what you wrote.
I guess the weight of what’s encouraged is experiential, or perhaps subcultural. Where I am I see people flock to the ones who always rejoice. There are a few cases where the suffering will receive mourning-type support: cancer or other obvious extreme illness and death in the family are two examples. Otherwise, precious few around here are willing to mourn alongside. And, yes, I see that on Facebook. Generally I think the reason is that we are all self-interested and most would rather rejoice than mourn. So if you want the fellowship of other believers in my area and have some cause to mourn, put on a fake happy face. If you want good reason to be depressed, let someone know you are struggling. You’ll find out how few people are really your friends.
I’ve just gotten to the point where I don’t care anymore. I know that most people act happy because they know that’s the only way to be accepted. But I also know that most people also have pains that they need someone to hear their heart on, so I look for that and draw it out. It gives me a healthy prayer list. I just don’t ever expect it in return.
Jim, A true pastors heart ye have!
My wife gave me this quote recently.
“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about.” Wendy Mass
My first thought was, But Wendy, we do know about many of these battles. Yet, those who rejoice and those who weep can resist telling why.
We have a Philippians 2:1 Culture. It must be safe for people to show concern, confess, weep, laugh with abandon or they won’t.
Do we underestimate how odd it is in this world to become a safe place / church for those who hide in secrecy?
Are we not all slow to trust for fear of being found (exposed) as flawed and yet imperfect?
Pastors must be safe and trustworthy people at least.
For they, in effect, grant others permission to do the same.
They must have their own chosen individuals for accountability, lest they too become pretentious.
Mike;
Great thoughts. Your closing paragraph, points the way so well:
“When we find ourselves suffering let us not pretend that darkness trumps the morning. Instead let us be a people who fight for an already purchased joy in Christ.”
There must be a limit to a Christian’s mourning (sorrow, depression, pain, etc.) and limitless joy. Unfortunately, the church has too many members insisting on their own entitlement to limitless ‘suffering’.
Thanks,
Dale
Nice stuff Mike!
I really like this line and think it is spot on… “I’m convinced that we live in a day and age when doubt has become a sexy virtue. And with it suffering is worn as a badge of honor and played as a trump card in relationships.”
The Apostle Paul is giving us a kingdom glimpse here I believe. On how to take advantage of the gifts and fruit He has provided to the church. It is dramatically counter culture when we see it for real. As you have intimated, there are folks in the church looking for ways to use suffering out of context and selfishly, and that comes in many forms, and I think we all can have a little gag reflex when we experience it.
O how the church would function differently if it heeded these words in this section of the letter communicated to the Romans through Paul. There would be less prejudice, less suffering used as the marker for faithfulness. There would certainly be less “liberation theology”, because the lens over scripture would focus much differently. To see rejoicing and suffering in the same context and in relationship to hearts that have been made new is priceless in this world, and is a sweet smelling savor to our Lord!
Good stuff, Thanks again for the post.
Mike,
Are you certain that Paul’s words here apply to the opposing sides? That is, that Paul is telling those in mourning to rejoice and those who are excited to mourn? Or could it be that Paul is speaking primarily to those with dull hearts who are jealous of those who are rejoicing and who are insensitive to those who are suffering? Admittedly, I have not done any serious study of the surrounding context of the verse, but the latter scenario is how I’ve always taken it.
That said, I do think you have a valid point about developing a suffering complex where we expect everyone to come down to our level. However, for dealing with that mindset I would go to passages such as…
“For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake.” (Philippians 1:29)
“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body” (Colossians 1:24)
“Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.” (Romans 5:2-5)
I think passages such as these that remind us that the reason for our suffering is still ultimately to draw us closer to God and magnify His grace are a more straight-forward way of correcting the issues (which I agree are very real) that you have raised here. My concern is that using Romans 12:15 to address the case you’ve described seems to be stretching Paul’s meaning. To me, Paul does not seem to be speaking to those going through suffering but to the onlookers.
I’d be genuinely curious to hear your thoughts and know if there’s something in the text/context that more clearly supports the interpretation/application you’ve described.
In Christ,
-Bob B.
Thanks for the question, Bob.
I think 12:15 is connected with 12:16. “Live in harmony with one another”. For me I don’t see any reason to apply “mourn with those who mourn” but then gloss over “rejoice with those who rejoice” as if it has no meaning or application. There is nothing in the text that would force me to give greater weight to one side of the comma.
Consider what is being said here and what it takes to “mourn with those who mourn” and “rejoice with those who rejoice”. If I am in a state of mourning (or even if I’m just kind of blah and neutral) and someone else is rejoicing consider what it takes for me to rejoice? It’s the same type of others-centered and Christ-centered heart that will “bless those who persecute you”. The same thing fits with someone who is rejoicing while others around him are mourning. Pride is what makes me say “I feel this way–therefore you must feel this way”. The overarching theme of this passage is pride destroying.
I hope this answers the question. I’m not sure if I’ve been as clear as I could be. Also you might read this sermon from Piper:
http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/live-peaceably-with-all-if-possible
I definitely agree that you can’t treat one side of the comma differently than the other. However, that was not my point. I also agree that the verse is pride-destroying. However, not all mourning is rooted in pride. If it was then Paul wouldn’t be telling them to mourn. All I was saying was that the verse does not seem to be addressing what to do when you have a mourning person show up at a birthday party, rather it seems to be speaking generally to promote harmony. Therefore, the purpose of the verse seems to be to provide comfort to those in mourning so it would seem strange to take this verse and accuse someone who is grieving of being prideful. Similarly, the verse is meant to provide companionship to those who are rejoicing so it would seem strange to use this verse to tell them they are guilty of pride for rejoicing.
I think we may be saying kind of the same thing, just from two different sides of the coin. It seems like your concern is correcting an abuse of this verse, and my concern is that we don’t over-correct and imply that someone is viewed suspiciously because they are struggling or depressed.
Thanks for the feedback, and I will definitely check out the link you posted.
In Christ,
-Bob B.
“But what I really should do is apply Romans 12:15 to my own heart …”
Amen Mike. I’ve been following sermon podcasts of a young whippersnapper SBC church planter in my area. He has grown the crowd to mega status with mostly college students who like his brand of preaching when he offers things like “Here is one prayer you should never pray ‘Jesus, forgive me of my sins'” (?!). They also like his potty-mouth style of delivery and the church’s cool band of loud drums, screaming guitars, and gyrating singers in tight pants. Another podcast gem he served the coffee-sipping bunch was in regard to Philippians 4:13 “I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.” He proclaimed that Paul was saying that about himself and that other Christians cannot claim the verse for their walk – he cautioned about personalizing Scripture (?!). Should we limit applying the Word to our own heart?! Whew!