This was originally published at “The Bridge” – Paul’s blog.
It is the allegorical ancient town of Vanity Fair that John Bunyan describes an atmosphere where “jugglings, cheats, games, plays, fools, apes, knaves, rogues, and that of all sorts,” were happening all day and all night. As well as, “thefts, murders, adulteries, false-swearers, and that of a blood-red color.”
Is there any connection that a pop-culture magazine, where merchandise is bought and sold “as houses, lands, trades, places, honors, preferments, titles, countries, kingdoms, lusts, pleasures, and delights of all sorts, as whores, bawds, wives, husbands, children, masters, servants, lives, blood, bodies, souls, silver, gold, pearls, precious stones, and what not,” is paraded in front of us as normal, heroic and even godly?
Entering the town of Vanity Fair, “Christian” causes a disturbance. His very presence is different from that of the townspeople, he even spoke a language (“the language of Canaan”) that was not understood. Bunyan described him as being plainly “outlandish” and described by the townspeople as a fool. But the thing that troubles the townspeople the most is his attitude toward the goods displayed at the fair. When called to look at them, he turn away, putting his fingers in his ears and crying out, “Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity” (quoting Psalm 119:37).
The crowd gathers to taunt and revile him, even some of them calling to “smite them,” which eventually leads to a great disturbance and eventual arrest of “Christian” for disturbing the peace.
After He was questioned, he is beaten and jailed to be made a public spectacle or to everyone.
Eventually “Christian” (and “Faithful”) are held responsible for disturbing the peace and are eventually taken to trial on charges that they are “enemies to and disturbers of their trade; that they have made commotions and divisions in the town, and had won a party to their own most dangerous opinions in contempt of the law of their prince.”
Before “Judge Hate-good”, who is all too happy to order “Christian’s” friend and traveling companion “Faithful” be executed according to the laws of the land, he is first scourged, “then they buffeted him, then they lanced his flesh with knives; after that they stoned him with stones, then pricked him with their swords and, last of all, they burned him to ashes at the stake. Thus came Faithful to his end.”
There is no explanation for “Christian’s” not going to trial by Bunyan. After some time he “escapes” and is on his way again —
Bruce Jenner (dressed as a woman, undergone reconstructive surgery and steroid treatment, airbrushed on the cover to look years younger and even giving him a more feminine appearance) has his ‘coming out’ fan fair on the cover of Vanity Fair. Make no mistake, Caitlyn Jenner is Bruce Jenner dressed as a woman. He is no American hero.
As long as Bruce Jenner presents himself as Caitlyn Jenner he can not and must not be called a hero. Do not be persuaded by the tide of public opinion and the emotionalism displayed in the interviews to fill sorry for what he is doing.
He likely has struggled with this matter for a long time, even while all of America looked at him as a hero during the 1976 Olympics.
Make no mistake, Vanity Fair “hates-good”. Christian, prepare yourself, the mob is organizing itself, they are gathering and coming for you.
Christian, weep over your ugly sins and rejoice in the Lord for his calling you to repentance and covering you with his grace and giving you mercy. Rejoice in the Lord! Always!
- “Oh what a wretched exchange professors make when they barter the blessings of a close walk with God, for beggarly enjoyments of an empty, disappointing world.” Mary Winslow
- “The religious freedom granted by our national documents was not freedom to be irreligious.” (Richard Owen Roberts – Unalienable Rights, 1993)
- “The Christian is to walk singularly, not after the world’s guise. We are commanded not to be conformed to this world, that is, not to accommodate ourselves to the corrupt customs to the world. The Christian must not be of such a complying nature as to cut the coat of his profession according to the fashion of the times or the humor of the company he falls into…” William Gurnall (1616-1679)
Responding to something like this is difficult for Christians. In addition to Paul’s perspective, I encourage readers to check out Marty Duren’s perspective (which just about went viral this week).
We are going to have to face this kind of question more and more in days ahead. How do those of us who believe the Bible relate to a world that embraces sin?
Here’s the link to Marty’s post: For God So Loved Caitlyn Jenner
I am reposting the comment that I posted on Marty’s blog. “Point well taken. But it does seem like there is a difference between 1) referring to Bruce as Caitlyn when speaking with him as to gain a hearing for the gospel and 2) agreeing to refer to him as her all the time. The latter seems to add to the confusion of the culture surrounding this issue.” I don’t think I have a problem talking to Bruce Jenner about the gospel and calling him Caitlyn if that is what he desires. We can all legally change our names if… Read more »
He or she – there is a human being that needs Jesus badly. That’s the ultimate issue.
And, perhaps, the fact that we live in a culture that views gender-bending as heroic. But that would be secondary.
“He or she – there is a human being that needs Jesus badly. That’s the ultimate issue.”
No Christian that I know of is arguing otherwise. I do see some Christians walking a very slippery slope of appeasement to make themselves appear tolerant in a world where any position that refers to sexual sin as sin is deemed intolerant. A lack of moral clarity will never lead people to saving faith in Jesus Christ. Moral clarity can and should be coupled with grace, but grace does not mean compromise.
Amen.
Adam, you took the words right out of my fingers!
Evangelical orthodox Christians MUST avoid the pitfall of the “tolerance” trap – it’s one of the anti gospels that is pervasive today.
Yeah, I struggle with the public response – the interplay of those two things. Finding that balance is tough. I see some of the more condemnatory posts and I’m convinced that gospel advance is not helped by that. I have read other posts that go too far in the direction accommodation – “grace” without standards – no grace at all.
I’m still struggling with finding that happy place. I think Marty is pretty close, but when you go there, you have to be careful not to take that half-a-step past to where far too many have gone.
To Dave Miller, I agree with you. As a Christian, I have witnessed to nonbelievers very confused by the cultural corruption of our day. One can show respect and love for individuals, while not approving of their sin. In the process of practicing the above, I shared the gospel with a homosexual patient of mine, dying of AIDS. He was saved by Lord Jesus, and later died. So, while we do show love and respect, we have to be careful not to compromise with sin.
It’s very sad that American culture is calling evil good, and good evil.
Bruce is a man, who is trying to look like a woman. He is not a she…no matter what he does to his body. And, I don’t think we should go along with this gross perversion just to look more tolerant, or PC, or be nice. I think what will bring someone like him to Christ is what brings any of us to Christ. The Holy Spirit working in the heart….with the law being our schoolmaster….to show us our sins and our need of a Savior…and, the Spirit’s convincing us of our need of Jesus. Also, I think Paul made… Read more »
I don’t think any of us disagree with the fact that Jenner is what God made him to be. The question is about how we can be most effective in our evangelistic approach. Is it most important that we straighten out someone like this about their sexual identity? Might it be more effective to show a kinder, though non-compromising side, to the person who such a person? “You are a man.” “You are a man.” “You are a man.” Okay, that is true. But in loudly and belligerently communicating that message we may lose a hearing for the gospel. Marty… Read more »
I wouldn’t be mean to him, and I don’t think anybody else should be mean to him. I would try to show the love and kindness of Christ to him. But, I sure wouldn’t play along with his sexual perversion.
David
From an “under the sun” viewpoint, here’s a NY Post perspective. Remember that the Post is a Murdoch rag, i.e. owned by News Corp. So if it seems to reflect FoxNews values, that’s why. The Millenials are the generation bringing in these changes with support from the late boomers and the Xers. The Millenials also are the same ones that generally disdain any form of (external) authority and are heavily pro tolerance. I still think Naisbitt’s Megatrends is as descriptive of the changes we’re seeing as any kind of pop culture explanation. We continue to see the proliferation of mass… Read more »
Sometimes these days we are trying to be “nicer” than Jesus and Paul were when engaging gross immorality. Jesus called the Pharisees “snakes” and told them they were making converts worse than they were before. He threw over the tables of the money changers. Paul told the Judaizers exactly how they should perform their circumcisions—by castration! We are only ASSUMING that the “bridge building, non-compromising, but so polite that nobody can tell” approach is what Jesus would use today if he were to confront Bruce Jenner. But I can just as easily imagine Jesus saying something like this: “It is… Read more »
Rick, I agree that both Jesus and Paul were direct and harsh with both the Pharisees and the Judaizers. No debate there from a plain reading fo Scripture. However, when I look at the spiritual condition of those two groups I see some marked differences. 1. The Pharisees were unde the Old Covenant. They were supposed to be the keepers of the laws of God, the leaders of their people, and those who were rejoicing in the arrival of the Messiah. They were none of these things. They used their religious authority to abuse those under their care, to stroke… Read more »
Yes, Ryan, I do see what you are saying. Yours is in fact the prevailing interpretation of such passages, seeing Jesus and Paul directing their heated comments toward the religious community rather than the poor, broken sinners, to whom they were much more compassionate. I only wonder if we must always put the sins of irreligious people in the category of the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery (textual issues, anyone?), and the thief on the cross—all of whom, by the way, did in fact evidence a change of life without remaining hard-hearted toward Christ. The transgendered… Read more »
Rick, I think Jesus would be harsh towards those who claim to speak for Him yet twist His words- so yes the Christian “tolerance” brigade would be in His sights. Maybe we need to use a different word than nice to speak to the issue. It’s impossibe to be “nice” when telling someone they are a broken sinner under the judgement of God who was born that way and can’t do anything to fix it apart from God’s divine intervention. That’s not “nice” but it is true. It is however possible to communicate that information without name calling, shaming, insulting,… Read more »
I agree there is no need to be rude, vulgar or unnecessarily harsh. But so many today just don’t want us to address sin in clear, bold and specific terms.
You are right that we are not called to be “nice.” If we can say it clearly, boldly and specifically, then I feel we will have presented the truth accurately and in love. Now, the words themselves may not sound loving, but the intent of the warning should be a loving call to repentance.
Thanks, Rick, for this point of view
Good Lord could I have more typos…
Autocorrect fail.
Yes, let me type it for you on my phone – or better yet use the speak type feature. 😉
Perhaps Jenner’s greatest sin is not his perception of himself as female, but his lifelong pursuit of the media spotlight. Perhaps without the one (media hog) we wouldn’t have the other.
And that my friends, is a sin that all Christians should be wary of.
“Perhaps Jenner’s greatest sin is not his perception of himself as female, but his lifelong pursuit of the media spotlight. Perhaps without the one (media hog) we wouldn’t have the other.” I have not followed the saga to closely but I was wondering the same thing as you. one cannot stand in a grocery line without knowing about Jenner and the process. I am starting to wonder if the media has not paid for his/her transformation and then some. if an insurance carrier paid for any part of this, I would be asking a lot of other type questions. Such… Read more »
Bill Mac, I think that is a large part of the issue–not just with Jenner but with society at large. We are drunk on media. Our heroes used to cross swinging bridges to meet a hostile enemy. Now, society’s heroes swing naked on a wrecking ball.
What gets wrecked is the moral fiber of society.
I live in the Land of Nuts and Flakes. In fact, Jenner lives just over the hill from me. I sometimes feel I’ve fallen into a rabbit hole and can’t get up (to mix a metaphor).
I know that I used to live in all sorts of sins…that I’m not proud of, nor would I even want to talk about them. I also know that the Pastor I heard preach…back in my pre-Christian days…pulled no punches. They clearly called the things I was doing “SIN.” My Mama called sin what it is….clearly. And, I know that God used this to make me feel very guilty and ashamed of my life….so guilty and ashamed that I wanted God’s forgiveness….so guilty and ashamed that I wanted to repent….and put my faith in Jesus. I knew I needed God… Read more »
Of course, the Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, and clinics all over the world would disagree with you guys. Anyone who has had any Psychology would disagree with you guys. Evidently someone hasn’t heard of BDD, Body Dysmorphic Disorder. I’m very careful about judging Bruce Jenner, the mind is a strange thing. Most of you have already admitted that depression is real, and that suicide is a result of mental health disease. Mental health disease can cause a person do strange things. Does it make doing wrong things, right? Of course not. I do think we need to be careful about… Read more »
“Evidently someone hasn’t heard of BDD, Body Dysmorphic Disorder. I’m very careful about judging Bruce Jenner, the mind is a strange thing.” I agree. Hermaphrodites exist. Society has not dealt with them very well at all. Quite unfairly, in fact. I want medical advances to help them have normal lives. I just think it is private to the individual. I have no idea what Jenner’s situation was concerning gender identity and would prefer not to know. If he/she can afford the transformation, that is his/her business. That is not how Jenner approached this. It has become a celebrity cause. However,… Read more »
I have to disagree with your conclusions re: psychology’s perceptions. I’m a Biblical counselor ( also with a PhD. In Counseling. ). Just because they teach us some theories in school, does NOT mean those theories are true. As a Southern Baptist, being equipped in Biblical Counseling, I will say that calling sin as sin ; telling the truth in love, is what helps the sinner. ” diagnosing” a person’s sinful life pattern helps no one, but causes confusion, as it’s not based on Scripture, but theories of unsaved men. So, those of us who are believers and believe and… Read more »
Pricilla141,
Thank you for proving my point for me. Who do you send your patients to when they need medication?
Didn’t you say you had said all you were saying on this subject?? 😉
Seriously, no one has said that medication is never necessary…many of us just resist your seemingly immediate approach of medicating the brethren and sisteheren ad nauseum – we also reject your comments that scripture and Christ Centered Pastoral Counseling is insufficient for counseling ….
As for me, I have said over and over that SOMETIMES medication is necessary, and that more professional counseling is needed beyond that of pastoral counseling – but I reject that is always the case. Discernment is a gift of the Spirit.
Tarheel, You sure jump to a lot of conclusions. What I am saying, we Pastors as well as the entire religious community had better leave mental health issues up the mental health professionals and leave the bible out of it. The gifts of healing isn’t in effect any more, it left when the early church did. There are no divine healers. God can heal whom he chooses to, but we cannot direct his ways. Pastoral counseling deals with that which is spiritual, not medical/mental. Tarheel, I’m sorry I pushed your buttons. I only hope what you believe doesn’t cause problems… Read more »
“Leave the Bible out of it?”
How do you go about deciding what to “leave the Bible out of?”
Your dichotomy between mental health issues and spiritual issues is mind-boggling. I believe that mental health issues do need, at times, medical treatment.
But I am bumfuzzled at the concept of completely eliminating God, scripture and spiritual help from anything having to do with mental health. That is dangerous, counter-productive, and I hope that most pastors will not follow such advice.
Jess, you obviously are unaware that even totally secular psychologists have to find someone “to send their patients to for medication.” The only point you seem to have made in your litany against giving Biblical counsel is that you believe that Bible is insufficient as a guide for life. I do not have the confidence in secular psychology that you do. My experience is that secular psychology relies for to heavily on medicine as a panacea for mental health issues. You set up a false bifurcation that pits good medical practice against solid biblical counsel. I see that as a… Read more »
“I do think we need to be careful about judging.” Well, I happen to suffer from Moral Clarity Syndrome—a rare disorder in which I point out what the Bible says is right and wrong without turning every individual sin into a psychological disorder. I would hope that everyone would be more sympathetic with those of us who are suffering from MCS. Next week, I’m wearing a white ribbon–symbolic of the purity of living according to God’s Word instead of rationalizing sin by means of various mental illness diagnoses. You may have a mild case of MCS as well, since the… Read more »
lol…well played
Here we go again…
“””I’ll run to a doctor, or mental health specialist.””” You have made this abundantly clear. I get it–you trust doctors more than you trust those speaking the truth of God to mental disorder. You remind me of the woman with an issue of blood for 12 years that “spent all her money on doctors.” It was not until she met Jesus that she was healed. I could not imagine expecting anyone to listen to me preach if I had such a low view of the power of God as you have. I don’t think I’ve read one person who suggests… Read more »
Jack,
There is really no point in me discussing this issue with you. I wish you would at least read your own comments. Do me a favor and go to the nearest mental hospital, and start at the top floor praying for everyone, and work your way down to the bottom floor. Everyone that gets healed that day by your prayer, or scripture reading I will put them in my arms and personally carry them home.
Lydia,
I know my comment sounded as if I directed it at you, but that was not my intention because I didn’t read your comment before I posted mine. I was directing my comment at everyone. I did enjoy reading your response.
“I know my comment sounded as if I directed it at you, but that was not my intention because I didn’t read your comment before I posted mine. I was directing my comment at everyone. I did enjoy reading your response” Hey Jess, I did not take it that way at all. I was just glad someone mentioned another aspect of this situation— that there really are people out there who deal with gender identification issues that are really physical. It was something considered more “freak” show for most of history than a serious physical/medical issue. I cannot say if… Read more »
“””that there really are people out there who deal with gender identification issues that are really physical.”””
I don’t think that is the point. Personally, I absolutely believe that Bruce Jenner has “real problems–physically, emotionally, and spiritually.” I don’t see how anyone can question that.
The issue, is treatment. What is the proper diagnosis and treatment of such a disorder. The popular approach to gender treatment is analogous to treating a diabetic by giving him a box of candy.
“I agree there is no need to be rude, vulgar or unnecessarily harsh. But so many today just don’t want us to address sin in clear, bold and specific terms.”
I suggest we start with ourselves and what we are willing to put up with by those in our own tribe because they call themselves Christians.
Lydia,
I recommend that our “tribe” be faithful to the Holy Scriptures, and let Jesus be Lord of our lives.
David
I get it, David. If they are professing Christians, they get a “sin pass” with cheap grace as all they have to do is say, “I repent”. Strange how many long time professing Christians get this sin pass when they get caught and say the magic words. Especially if a pedophile/child molester. Much of our tribe gives that a pass claiming that God instantly changes hearts– so don’t worry. We will make sure they don’t get near your kids at church. In fact, some believe if the victim makes it public they forgive, it erases the sins. Weird stuff. Jeffries… Read more »
I guess, back when I was lost and living in rebellion, that I RHD(rebellious heart disorder), and ALD(alcohol loving disorder), and WSS(weed smoking syndrome), and LED(Lustful Eye Disorder), and I also was diagnosed with ADD, OCD, and FAT. So, since I had these disorders, it didn’t make me a sinner. I just had psychological problems. I guess the answer to my disorders and syndromes was counseling and pills, instead of Jesus. But alas, I didn’t know any better. So, instead I got a good dose of salvation, and the Holy Spirit moved in, and did a life-changing work in my… Read more »
I’m not even sure where your mind goes sometimes David.
Has anyone in this comment stream recommended that we stop calling sin sin? Has anyone advocated for the use of counseling and medication to replace the Gospel?
Ryan, did you read David’s last sentence?
You must have missed Jess’ comment.
Ryan,
Read Jess and Lydia above.
David
Vol,
I apologize profusely. I did not see Jess’ comment above.
Your comment now makes a LOT more sense.
Ryan,
It’s all good, Bro.
David
“I guess, back when I was lost and living in rebellion, that I RHD(rebellious heart disorder), and ALD(alcohol loving disorder), and WSS(weed smoking syndrome), and LED(Lustful Eye Disorder), and I also was diagnosed with ADD, OCD, and FAT. So, since I had these disorders, it didn’t make me a sinner. I just had psychological problems. I guess the answer to my disorders and syndromes was counseling and pills, instead of Jesus. But alas, I didn’t know any better. So, instead I got a good dose of salvation, and the Holy Spirit moved in, and did a life-changing work in my… Read more »
There can be no gospel presentation (good news) without revelation of sin and its price (bad news).
If we don’t convey the truth about the bondage and hopelessness of sinfulness and Gods wrath toward it to an individual then from what are we offering them atonement, freedom and deliverance?
I’ve heard it like this “no one gets saved, until
they realize they’re lost.”.
Dave Miller, The point I’m trying to make is unless one is a certified councilor, they have no business addressing mental health issues. If preachers are not certified councilors, they had better stick with the spiritual, and leave the mind to the professionals. Shucks, a lot of preachers I know have mental disorders themselves. Why don’t they read the bible and get cured, if you think the bible is a fix all. I have a dear friend who is getting ready to go through her third brain tumor surgery, maybe I can read the bible to her and she won’t… Read more »
counselor*
I do not see a clear separation between the mental, physical and the spiritual. They are completely interwoven. When someone is experiencing a mental health issue they need total care that encompasses the mind, body and spirit. I think that you are drawing a distinction that isn’t there when you assert that some things should only be treated by a mental health counselor alone. Certainly, pastors sometimes (often) need to refer people to counselors who have more knowledge and expertise with mental health issues. When that happens we do not draw a line and say that a problem is purely… Read more »
“””maybe I can read the bible to her and she won’t have to have the surgery.””” Why not? I’ve known a couple people who have been healed through prayer based upon Biblical truth. I’ve lived six decades on this earth and have never seen or heard of a doctor “healing” anybody. In fact, I know of person’s having the exact procedure with the same doctor, and rather than being “healed,” they died. Again, you demonstrate zero confidence in God’s power and the power of God’s Book. Yet, you accuse those that differ with you as having “mental problems.” If it… Read more »
Jack,
Good for you!
What defines something as a mental health issue? That seems to be your drum to bang in this, but you never define it. Can something physically go wrong with the brain? Absolutely, I don’t think anyone here would argue that point.
The question is, how do you know something is wrong in the brain? To dismiss: emotional, relational, and perception problems to the realm of medical need carte blanche is just as reckless as ignoring physical problems.
Michael, I will define mental health issues as a condition that does, and can do harm to an individual. such as depression, thinking, and behavior, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, eating, or not, addiction, and a host of other issues. Michael, if I came to you and told you I keep hearing voices in my head, and they keep telling me to hide somewhere so no one could find me, because someone is wanting to take my life. Suppose you’re a pastor and not a certified councilor, what scripture would you pull out of the bible for me to be healed as… Read more »
*counselor
I doubt many (I won’t say all) would say that if you hear voices (not SBCVoices) you should be counselled with Bible verses. However, your list includes: depression, anxiety, and addiction. Those things in and of themselves do not rise to the level of mental breakdown in and of themselves. Could they be, yes, but they aren’t simply because you say so. Anxiety is sin. Addiction is sin. Depression may very well be sin, deeper conversation and understanding would be needed. Common sense would go a long way in determining all these things, but you seem to take every possible… Read more »
Michael,
With all due respect, you are just not getting it. You have no idea what you are talking about.
I will take that insulting condescension as an end to the discussion then.
Michael, thank you for sharing. My brother heard voices. He tried to silence them with alcohol. I buried him at the age of 42. Our family tried everything we could to help him: drugs, doctors, preachers, tears. All this helped to some degree. He drank from the time he was 14 to eight months before he died. Nothing could help him quit–not even the doctors warning him his next drink could kill him. He desperately wanted to quit–he couldn’t. Then, he found the faith he had lost years before. Overnight he quit drinking. It was a miracle. The poison had… Read more »
Jack, I agree 100%. I grew up in a house with mental illness. I tell people you haven’t been beaten until you’ve been beaten by a man who thinks you are the Vietcong.
There are people who need real medical help, no one disputes that, but the ultimate healer is Christ in His Gospel. Your brother is a testimony to that.
What I can’t understand is the Christian who kicks everything out of the church and to the secular world that has no Truth and has no hope, only medication.
Again, thanks for sharing Michael. Also, if your Dad is a Vietnam Vet, he may have had issues, but he’s a real hero in my eyes.
Michael said: “…depression, anxiety, and addiction. Those things in and of themselves do not rise to the level of mental breakdown in and of themselves.” Is that your opinion as a Psychiatrist? Depression can lead to suicide. Is that not serious enough? “Anxiety is sin. Addiction is sin. Depression may very well be sin, deeper conversation and understanding would be needed.” Anxiety and depression go hand-in-hand in many cases. If depression is not necessarily sin, is the anxiety sinful? Addiction may start as sin, but there is a very real physical component after addiction is achieved. Would you suggest no… Read more »
Ken, you misunderstand my position; and that is okay as I have only been giving it in response to other things. Mental illness is not limited to delusion. I understand that and would never hold to that as a hard standard. “Is that your opinion as a Psychiatrist? Depression can lead to suicide. Is that not serious enough?” – Is that your opinion as a Psychiatrist? What medical test determines whether one is depressed and suicidal? What medical test determines which medication should be given and how much of it should be given? “Speaking as a Christian who struggles with… Read more »
Very well said.
“I don’t wish to negate the fact that the brain can “break” like a limb. But we have to as Christians stop surrendering to the secular world because the DSM says so. What was a mental illness 20 years ago is now considered courageous. What the church called sins 100 years ago are now considered “disorders”. We have to stop letting the world determine how we read our Bibles.”
This, this, this!!
I agree with Ken, I have never abandoned God as a source of help. I depend on God in all spiritual matters. When it comes to physical or mental matters, not so much. This is where I draw the line, I depend almost entirely on doctors when an illness is not spiritual. Before any of us ever existed, before the world was even created, God knew/knows by his infinite wisdom, the very second, the very minute, hour, and day I will die. God even knew my doctors by name before the world was created. I am going to die, that… Read more »