This was originally published at “The Bridge” – Paul’s blog.
It is the allegorical ancient town of Vanity Fair that John Bunyan describes an atmosphere where “jugglings, cheats, games, plays, fools, apes, knaves, rogues, and that of all sorts,” were happening all day and all night. As well as, “thefts, murders, adulteries, false-swearers, and that of a blood-red color.”
Is there any connection that a pop-culture magazine, where merchandise is bought and sold “as houses, lands, trades, places, honors, preferments, titles, countries, kingdoms, lusts, pleasures, and delights of all sorts, as whores, bawds, wives, husbands, children, masters, servants, lives, blood, bodies, souls, silver, gold, pearls, precious stones, and what not,” is paraded in front of us as normal, heroic and even godly?
Entering the town of Vanity Fair, “Christian” causes a disturbance. His very presence is different from that of the townspeople, he even spoke a language (“the language of Canaan”) that was not understood. Bunyan described him as being plainly “outlandish” and described by the townspeople as a fool. But the thing that troubles the townspeople the most is his attitude toward the goods displayed at the fair. When called to look at them, he turn away, putting his fingers in his ears and crying out, “Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity” (quoting Psalm 119:37).
The crowd gathers to taunt and revile him, even some of them calling to “smite them,” which eventually leads to a great disturbance and eventual arrest of “Christian” for disturbing the peace.
After He was questioned, he is beaten and jailed to be made a public spectacle or to everyone.
Eventually “Christian” (and “Faithful”) are held responsible for disturbing the peace and are eventually taken to trial on charges that they are “enemies to and disturbers of their trade; that they have made commotions and divisions in the town, and had won a party to their own most dangerous opinions in contempt of the law of their prince.”
Before “Judge Hate-good”, who is all too happy to order “Christian’s” friend and traveling companion “Faithful” be executed according to the laws of the land, he is first scourged, “then they buffeted him, then they lanced his flesh with knives; after that they stoned him with stones, then pricked him with their swords and, last of all, they burned him to ashes at the stake. Thus came Faithful to his end.”
There is no explanation for “Christian’s” not going to trial by Bunyan. After some time he “escapes” and is on his way again —
Bruce Jenner (dressed as a woman, undergone reconstructive surgery and steroid treatment, airbrushed on the cover to look years younger and even giving him a more feminine appearance) has his ‘coming out’ fan fair on the cover of Vanity Fair. Make no mistake, Caitlyn Jenner is Bruce Jenner dressed as a woman. He is no American hero.
As long as Bruce Jenner presents himself as Caitlyn Jenner he can not and must not be called a hero. Do not be persuaded by the tide of public opinion and the emotionalism displayed in the interviews to fill sorry for what he is doing.
He likely has struggled with this matter for a long time, even while all of America looked at him as a hero during the 1976 Olympics.
Make no mistake, Vanity Fair “hates-good”. Christian, prepare yourself, the mob is organizing itself, they are gathering and coming for you.
Christian, weep over your ugly sins and rejoice in the Lord for his calling you to repentance and covering you with his grace and giving you mercy. Rejoice in the Lord! Always!
- “Oh what a wretched exchange professors make when they barter the blessings of a close walk with God, for beggarly enjoyments of an empty, disappointing world.” Mary Winslow
- “The religious freedom granted by our national documents was not freedom to be irreligious.” (Richard Owen Roberts – Unalienable Rights, 1993)
- “The Christian is to walk singularly, not after the world’s guise. We are commanded not to be conformed to this world, that is, not to accommodate ourselves to the corrupt customs to the world. The Christian must not be of such a complying nature as to cut the coat of his profession according to the fashion of the times or the humor of the company he falls into…” William Gurnall (1616-1679)
Responding to something like this is difficult for Christians. In addition to Paul’s perspective, I encourage readers to check out Marty Duren’s perspective (which just about went viral this week).
We are going to have to face this kind of question more and more in days ahead. How do those of us who believe the Bible relate to a world that embraces sin?
Here’s the link to Marty’s post: For God So Loved Caitlyn Jenner
I am reposting the comment that I posted on Marty’s blog.
“Point well taken. But it does seem like there is a difference between 1) referring to Bruce as Caitlyn when speaking with him as to gain a hearing for the gospel and 2) agreeing to refer to him as her all the time. The latter seems to add to the confusion of the culture surrounding this issue.”
I don’t think I have a problem talking to Bruce Jenner about the gospel and calling him Caitlyn if that is what he desires. We can all legally change our names if we would like. I do have a big problem with Christians agreeing to refer to a he as a she.
He or she – there is a human being that needs Jesus badly. That’s the ultimate issue.
And, perhaps, the fact that we live in a culture that views gender-bending as heroic. But that would be secondary.
“He or she – there is a human being that needs Jesus badly. That’s the ultimate issue.”
No Christian that I know of is arguing otherwise. I do see some Christians walking a very slippery slope of appeasement to make themselves appear tolerant in a world where any position that refers to sexual sin as sin is deemed intolerant. A lack of moral clarity will never lead people to saving faith in Jesus Christ. Moral clarity can and should be coupled with grace, but grace does not mean compromise.
Amen.
Adam, you took the words right out of my fingers!
Evangelical orthodox Christians MUST avoid the pitfall of the “tolerance” trap – it’s one of the anti gospels that is pervasive today.
Yeah, I struggle with the public response – the interplay of those two things. Finding that balance is tough. I see some of the more condemnatory posts and I’m convinced that gospel advance is not helped by that. I have read other posts that go too far in the direction accommodation – “grace” without standards – no grace at all.
I’m still struggling with finding that happy place. I think Marty is pretty close, but when you go there, you have to be careful not to take that half-a-step past to where far too many have gone.
To Dave Miller, I agree with you. As a Christian, I have witnessed to nonbelievers very confused by the cultural corruption of our day. One can show respect and love for individuals, while not approving of their sin. In the process of practicing the above, I shared the gospel with a homosexual patient of mine, dying of AIDS. He was saved by Lord Jesus, and later died. So, while we do show love and respect, we have to be careful not to compromise with sin.
It’s very sad that American culture is calling evil good, and good evil.
Bruce is a man, who is trying to look like a woman. He is not a she…no matter what he does to his body. And, I don’t think we should go along with this gross perversion just to look more tolerant, or PC, or be nice.
I think what will bring someone like him to Christ is what brings any of us to Christ. The Holy Spirit working in the heart….with the law being our schoolmaster….to show us our sins and our need of a Savior…and, the Spirit’s convincing us of our need of Jesus.
Also, I think Paul made a lot of great points in his OP.
David
I don’t think any of us disagree with the fact that Jenner is what God made him to be.
The question is about how we can be most effective in our evangelistic approach. Is it most important that we straighten out someone like this about their sexual identity? Might it be more effective to show a kinder, though non-compromising side, to the person who such a person?
“You are a man.” “You are a man.” “You are a man.” Okay, that is true. But in loudly and belligerently communicating that message we may lose a hearing for the gospel.
Marty made a pretty good point in one of his follow-up posts this week (I think that’s where I read this). This is all just pretty much blowhard-ing anyway. I don’t know Jenner and I doubt you do. Unless I’m dealing with a transgender person or you are, we are just blustering, not ministering.
I wouldn’t be mean to him, and I don’t think anybody else should be mean to him. I would try to show the love and kindness of Christ to him. But, I sure wouldn’t play along with his sexual perversion.
David
From an “under the sun” viewpoint, here’s a NY Post perspective. Remember that the Post is a Murdoch rag, i.e. owned by News Corp. So if it seems to reflect FoxNews values, that’s why.
The Millenials are the generation bringing in these changes with support from the late boomers and the Xers. The Millenials also are the same ones that generally disdain any form of (external) authority and are heavily pro tolerance. I still think Naisbitt’s Megatrends is as descriptive of the changes we’re seeing as any kind of pop culture explanation. We continue to see the proliferation of mass customization largely introduced at the end of the mass market era. The internet accelerated that “megatrend”. And the natural response to it is the various kinds of post-modern behavior including post-denominationalism.
Which isn’t to say Naisbitt was the ONLY person that pointed to it, but he did a pretty good job from a marketplace and business perspective of explaining what we would see happen. And here we are…
Sometimes these days we are trying to be “nicer” than Jesus and Paul were when engaging gross immorality. Jesus called the Pharisees “snakes” and told them they were making converts worse than they were before. He threw over the tables of the money changers. Paul told the Judaizers exactly how they should perform their circumcisions—by castration!
We are only ASSUMING that the “bridge building, non-compromising, but so polite that nobody can tell” approach is what Jesus would use today if he were to confront Bruce Jenner. But I can just as easily imagine Jesus saying something like this:
“It is written, ‘God created them male and female.’ You were created male. Why do you question the goodness of God? Why seek to be something else? You are not a woman any more than you are a dog or a pig.”
Careful, everyone. I’m not adding to Scripture here. I just think that this tone of moral rebuke is sometimes called for, and it is missing today as we try to be overly sensitive and conciliatory. When things are indeed ridiculous, do they not deserve to be ridiculed? Who says such words are ungodly? Not Jesus. Not Paul.
Rick,
I agree that both Jesus and Paul were direct and harsh with both the Pharisees and the Judaizers. No debate there from a plain reading fo Scripture. However, when I look at the spiritual condition of those two groups I see some marked differences.
1. The Pharisees were unde the Old Covenant. They were supposed to be the keepers of the laws of God, the leaders of their people, and those who were rejoicing in the arrival of the Messiah. They were none of these things. They used their religious authority to abuse those under their care, to stroke their own egos, line their own pockets (see the cleansing of the Temple), and push people further away from God (twice the son of hell…) Jesus was harsh with them because they were false teachers who misrepresented God.
2. The Judaizers were Christians who were advocating a “Gospel and…” approach to salvation that spoke particularly and directly against the Gentiles who Paul was actively leading to Jesus. They were perverting the Gospel to attempt to preserve their own power, position, and the last vestiges of Old Covenant law code. Paul was harsh with them because they were also false teachers.
I do not think that those words, methods, and actions correlate to the situation with Bruce/Caitlyn, nor do I think they represent a model of engagement with those who are not Christians. Looking at Jesus interactions with the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, the their on the cross, etc we see a Savior who spoke with compassion to those caught in sin- never validating their sin, but also not calling them snakes, empty tombs, etc. Why not?
Do you see this dichotomy of action in the texts or am I just crazy? Honestly asking.
Yes, Ryan, I do see what you are saying. Yours is in fact the prevailing interpretation of such passages, seeing Jesus and Paul directing their heated comments toward the religious community rather than the poor, broken sinners, to whom they were much more compassionate.
I only wonder if we must always put the sins of irreligious people in the category of the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery (textual issues, anyone?), and the thief on the cross—all of whom, by the way, did in fact evidence a change of life without remaining hard-hearted toward Christ.
The transgendered and homosexual communities today do not seem nearly as receptive to the gospel as did the scriptural examples mentioned.
Perhaps the Pharisees of our day might actually be those ascribing to America’s “de facto” religion of tolerance toward all forms of sexual expression. Would Jesus have tolerated their tolerance?
I am only wondering if we might be misreading those who are entitled to be on the receiving end of a strong rebuke, rather than a gentle word.
I am not sure we are doing sinners any favors by treating their sins so gently that they don’t really understand the greatness of their offense. Our gentle language often seems accepting and even condoning, although we do not intend it to be interpreted that way.
We would all agree that it is loving to be crystal clear about what God says is right and what God says is wrong. I just think in our attempts to be nice, we are not quite making our position as clear as it needs to be.
Rick, I think Jesus would be harsh towards those who claim to speak for Him yet twist His words- so yes the Christian “tolerance” brigade would be in His sights.
Maybe we need to use a different word than nice to speak to the issue. It’s impossibe to be “nice” when telling someone they are a broken sinner under the judgement of God who was born that way and can’t do anything to fix it apart from God’s divine intervention. That’s not “nice” but it is true. It is however possible to communicate that information without name calling, shaming, insulting, or just generally being a jerk. I can tell someone that their sexual preference is wrong in the eyes of God without using a slur. I can tell someone they are going to hell as a glutton without calling them “fatso.”
The issue as I see is not one of niceness but of how we speak the truth in love. I see that is something that we struggle with as the culture wars become ever more strident and divided.
I think it’s an area the Church can improve on, and truthfully, must improve on as we seek to move to counter cultural engagement in a post Christian nation.
I agree there is no need to be rude, vulgar or unnecessarily harsh. But so many today just don’t want us to address sin in clear, bold and specific terms.
You are right that we are not called to be “nice.” If we can say it clearly, boldly and specifically, then I feel we will have presented the truth accurately and in love. Now, the words themselves may not sound loving, but the intent of the warning should be a loving call to repentance.
Thanks, Rick, for this point of view
Good Lord could I have more typos…
Autocorrect fail.
Yes, let me type it for you on my phone – or better yet use the speak type feature. 😉
Perhaps Jenner’s greatest sin is not his perception of himself as female, but his lifelong pursuit of the media spotlight. Perhaps without the one (media hog) we wouldn’t have the other.
And that my friends, is a sin that all Christians should be wary of.
“Perhaps Jenner’s greatest sin is not his perception of himself as female, but his lifelong pursuit of the media spotlight. Perhaps without the one (media hog) we wouldn’t have the other.”
I have not followed the saga to closely but I was wondering the same thing as you. one cannot stand in a grocery line without knowing about Jenner and the process.
I am starting to wonder if the media has not paid for his/her transformation and then some. if an insurance carrier paid for any part of this, I would be asking a lot of other type questions. Such as has the insurance carrier denied any terminally ill patients experimental treatment while paying for part of this transformation?
you can’t swing a dead cat on the Internet without running across Jenner. I have seen some mentions of Jenner going to church and/or being a Christian, too.
there is also the question of him being a media celebrity right now in spite of the fact it has been reported he killed a woman while texting and driving.
I was hoping the general celebrity status would bring about other types of questions that have some substance and might resonate with more fair and just minded people from all walks of life.
Bill Mac, I think that is a large part of the issue–not just with Jenner but with society at large. We are drunk on media. Our heroes used to cross swinging bridges to meet a hostile enemy. Now, society’s heroes swing naked on a wrecking ball.
What gets wrecked is the moral fiber of society.
I live in the Land of Nuts and Flakes. In fact, Jenner lives just over the hill from me. I sometimes feel I’ve fallen into a rabbit hole and can’t get up (to mix a metaphor).
I know that I used to live in all sorts of sins…that I’m not proud of, nor would I even want to talk about them. I also know that the Pastor I heard preach…back in my pre-Christian days…pulled no punches. They clearly called the things I was doing “SIN.” My Mama called sin what it is….clearly. And, I know that God used this to make me feel very guilty and ashamed of my life….so guilty and ashamed that I wanted God’s forgiveness….so guilty and ashamed that I wanted to repent….and put my faith in Jesus. I knew I needed God to forgive me and turn my life around….the law was school teacher to my life. People like Bruce Jenner need to hear the same. We don’t need to tiptoe around his sin. We need to clearly call it what it is….
David
Of course, the Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, and clinics all over the world would disagree with you guys. Anyone who has had any Psychology would disagree with you guys. Evidently someone hasn’t heard of BDD, Body Dysmorphic Disorder. I’m very careful about judging Bruce Jenner, the mind is a strange thing.
Most of you have already admitted that depression is real, and that suicide is a result of mental health disease. Mental health disease can cause a person do strange things. Does it make doing wrong things, right? Of course not. I do think we need to be careful about judging.
We may be wrong in presuming to know the mind of Bruce Jenner.
The way I understand what many have said here on Voices, is that some Christians are addicted to Porn, gambling, alcohol, and all sorts of other things. I’m not saying I agree with Bruce Jenner. I’m also not saying I agree with most of the comments on this thread.
Some of you think that severe depression can be solved by a Christian Councilor. My friend that is thinking right out of the middle ages. You will get someone killed.
Why not join with me in praying for Bruce or Caitlyn Jenner. I do know if I have a diagnosed mental issue, or think I may have a mental issue, I will not run to a bunch of preachers, I’ll run to a doctor, or mental health specialist. Most of you have already proven my point as to why I wouldn’t run to a bunch of preachers. There is a difference between having knowledge and understanding the knowledge we claim to have.
The Bible has all the answers, but I think our understanding of the answers are still in the middle ages. This is all I have to say on the subject.
“Evidently someone hasn’t heard of BDD, Body Dysmorphic Disorder. I’m very careful about judging Bruce Jenner, the mind is a strange thing.”
I agree. Hermaphrodites exist. Society has not dealt with them very well at all. Quite unfairly, in fact. I want medical advances to help them have normal lives. I just think it is private to the individual.
I have no idea what Jenner’s situation was concerning gender identity and would prefer not to know. If he/she can afford the transformation, that is his/her business. That is not how Jenner approached this. It has become a celebrity cause.
However, when he/she seeks fame from it, then it becomes my business to ask uncomfortable questions. Jenner had to agree to a cover(s) on People or Vanity Fair. And is paid for them. I don’t have to read them but I do have to see them every where I turn from the doctors office to the grocery checkout and answer questions from the kids about it.
And since the government is now regulating all aspects of health insurance including the IRS, and since WE are the government, I have a right to ask if a health insurance carrier paid any part of the process and if at the same time turned any terminally ill patient down for experimental treatment. Because this transformation has been used to seek fame and money. I also have the right to ask why so many are ignoring his (then he was a he) killing a woman because he was texting while driving.
I have to disagree with your conclusions re: psychology’s perceptions. I’m a Biblical counselor ( also with a PhD. In Counseling. ). Just because they teach us some theories in school, does NOT mean those theories are true. As a Southern Baptist, being equipped in Biblical Counseling, I will say that calling sin as sin ; telling the truth in love, is what helps the sinner. ” diagnosing” a person’s sinful life pattern helps no one, but causes confusion, as it’s not based on Scripture, but theories of unsaved men.
So, those of us who are believers and believe and obey Scripture, have a much higher, inerrant, reliable, truthful standard ( Holy Bible ) which is the pillar and ground of God Truth.
As a Christian, I saw that we were taught many vain philosophies ( lies ) in school. These are typical theories of Athiests; why should we believe them? I never did, but compared the teaching in class to Scripture. And please remember, the DSM. System is a combination of these theories, and heavily politically influenced.
Also, some Christians have been deceived by these grave errors. We are to gently ( humbly ) restore a brother or sister. But one never has to believe; practice or advocate a lie.
By the way, I’m certainly not alone in my take on this. There are other Biblical Counselors; friends of mine in my area, who first had training in some sort of psychology.
A right interpretation of Scripture ( literal historical grammatical hermeneutics ) can solve these errors. Scripture is sufficient; the Holy Spirit is sufficient.
Soft Science may contain some natural or partial truths, but I’m aware that God has disclosed His perfect and inerrant Truth in Scripture. It is our rule of Faith and practice. Personally, I will choose to use Biblical Counseling to help people. They have to be saved for it to be effective, though. Given I’ve practiced this for fifteen years, I can affirm that it is sufficient to help in Christian’s problems.
Pricilla141,
Thank you for proving my point for me. Who do you send your patients to when they need medication?
Didn’t you say you had said all you were saying on this subject?? 😉
Seriously, no one has said that medication is never necessary…many of us just resist your seemingly immediate approach of medicating the brethren and sisteheren ad nauseum – we also reject your comments that scripture and Christ Centered Pastoral Counseling is insufficient for counseling ….
As for me, I have said over and over that SOMETIMES medication is necessary, and that more professional counseling is needed beyond that of pastoral counseling – but I reject that is always the case. Discernment is a gift of the Spirit.
Tarheel,
You sure jump to a lot of conclusions. What I am saying, we Pastors as well as the entire religious community had better leave mental health issues up the mental health professionals and leave the bible out of it. The gifts of healing isn’t in effect any more, it left when the early church did. There are no divine healers. God can heal whom he chooses to, but we cannot direct his ways.
Pastoral counseling deals with that which is spiritual, not medical/mental.
Tarheel, I’m sorry I pushed your buttons. I only hope what you believe doesn’t cause problems for folks in your church.
I believe in Christian counseling, but not for mental health issues. In a situation such as mental problems, I would say Christian counseling is nothing more than a pat on the back compared to the mental health professionals.
Tarheel, isn’t it strange how our insurance pays to see mental health professionals. Someone knows something we don’t. I don’t want to push too many of your buttons, but just for you, I’ll not even look at this post anymore. Have a good day.
“Leave the Bible out of it?”
How do you go about deciding what to “leave the Bible out of?”
Your dichotomy between mental health issues and spiritual issues is mind-boggling. I believe that mental health issues do need, at times, medical treatment.
But I am bumfuzzled at the concept of completely eliminating God, scripture and spiritual help from anything having to do with mental health. That is dangerous, counter-productive, and I hope that most pastors will not follow such advice.
Jess, you obviously are unaware that even totally secular psychologists have to find someone “to send their patients to for medication.”
The only point you seem to have made in your litany against giving Biblical counsel is that you believe that Bible is insufficient as a guide for life.
I do not have the confidence in secular psychology that you do. My experience is that secular psychology relies for to heavily on medicine as a panacea for mental health issues.
You set up a false bifurcation that pits good medical practice against solid biblical counsel. I see that as a fallacy.
“I do think we need to be careful about judging.”
Well, I happen to suffer from Moral Clarity Syndrome—a rare disorder in which I point out what the Bible says is right and wrong without turning every individual sin into a psychological disorder. I would hope that everyone would be more sympathetic with those of us who are suffering from MCS.
Next week, I’m wearing a white ribbon–symbolic of the purity of living according to God’s Word instead of rationalizing sin by means of various mental illness diagnoses.
You may have a mild case of MCS as well, since the act of warning us of the sin of judging actually placed you in the ironic position of at least mildly judging us. I hope to see you at our next support group meeting.
In the meantime, I did bother to read the Wikipedia article on Body Dysmorphic Disorder. Unfortunately, I will never get back those three minutes of my life. However, the article did not emphasize transgender issues in the least. BDD is apparently much more concerned with simple body issues—not liking one’s nose, size, body type, etc.
I guess what I am mainly trying to say is that we all need to be more compassionate with those who tend to judge others and see things as either black or white. That’s just how such people are wired, and we could all stand to be much more understanding and supportive of those who judge others.
And I realize that it starts with me. So if anyone has been judgmental in clearly pointing out sin, and I have made you feel bad about this in any way whatsoever, I truly apologize. If I haven’t walked in your shoes, I can’t really understand your level of moral clarity. And besides, who am I to judge?
lol…well played
Here we go again…
“””I’ll run to a doctor, or mental health specialist.””” You have made this abundantly clear. I get it–you trust doctors more than you trust those speaking the truth of God to mental disorder.
You remind me of the woman with an issue of blood for 12 years that “spent all her money on doctors.” It was not until she met Jesus that she was healed.
I could not imagine expecting anyone to listen to me preach if I had such a low view of the power of God as you have.
I don’t think I’ve read one person who suggests that medical assistance is not a viable component to assisting persons with mental health issues.
My study and experience indicates that battling mental illness apart from prayer will have a very negative outcome. I hope that you are not affective in dissuading families struggling against mental illness from believing that God not only “can” heal the mind, but He “has,” and He “will.”
Jack,
There is really no point in me discussing this issue with you. I wish you would at least read your own comments. Do me a favor and go to the nearest mental hospital, and start at the top floor praying for everyone, and work your way down to the bottom floor. Everyone that gets healed that day by your prayer, or scripture reading I will put them in my arms and personally carry them home.
Lydia,
I know my comment sounded as if I directed it at you, but that was not my intention because I didn’t read your comment before I posted mine. I was directing my comment at everyone. I did enjoy reading your response.
“I know my comment sounded as if I directed it at you, but that was not my intention because I didn’t read your comment before I posted mine. I was directing my comment at everyone. I did enjoy reading your response”
Hey Jess, I did not take it that way at all. I was just glad someone mentioned another aspect of this situation— that there really are people out there who deal with gender identification issues that are really physical. It was something considered more “freak” show for most of history than a serious physical/medical issue.
I cannot say if Jenner fits into that category or not. Nor does it matter. Jenner made this a celebrity show. Jenner is open game for the hard questions.
“””that there really are people out there who deal with gender identification issues that are really physical.”””
I don’t think that is the point. Personally, I absolutely believe that Bruce Jenner has “real problems–physically, emotionally, and spiritually.” I don’t see how anyone can question that.
The issue, is treatment. What is the proper diagnosis and treatment of such a disorder. The popular approach to gender treatment is analogous to treating a diabetic by giving him a box of candy.
“I agree there is no need to be rude, vulgar or unnecessarily harsh. But so many today just don’t want us to address sin in clear, bold and specific terms.”
I suggest we start with ourselves and what we are willing to put up with by those in our own tribe because they call themselves Christians.
Lydia,
I recommend that our “tribe” be faithful to the Holy Scriptures, and let Jesus be Lord of our lives.
David
I get it, David. If they are professing Christians, they get a “sin pass” with cheap grace as all they have to do is say, “I repent”. Strange how many long time professing Christians get this sin pass when they get caught and say the magic words. Especially if a pedophile/child molester. Much of our tribe gives that a pass claiming that God instantly changes hearts– so don’t worry. We will make sure they don’t get near your kids at church.
In fact, some believe if the victim makes it public they forgive, it erases the sins. Weird stuff. Jeffries was doing that with the Duggar situation.
In the case at Village the victim was “church disciplined” and the pedophile in “good standing” for saying the magic words.
Makes you wonder if Christianity is not a great place for peds and abusers to make their home. Such cheap grace, shallow view of repentance and immediate acceptance of the magic words.
So why are you or any other pastor expecting better behavior out of unbelievers? I don’t get it. The unbelievers just don’t care about getting a sin pass by saying the magic words. They are more honest.
What ever happened to REAL metanoia? It is hard work. And takes time.
I guess, back when I was lost and living in rebellion, that I RHD(rebellious heart disorder), and ALD(alcohol loving disorder), and WSS(weed smoking syndrome), and LED(Lustful Eye Disorder), and I also was diagnosed with ADD, OCD, and FAT.
So, since I had these disorders, it didn’t make me a sinner. I just had psychological problems. I guess the answer to my disorders and syndromes was counseling and pills, instead of Jesus. But alas, I didn’t know any better. So, instead I got a good dose of salvation, and the Holy Spirit moved in, and did a life-changing work in my heart.
David
I’m not even sure where your mind goes sometimes David.
Has anyone in this comment stream recommended that we stop calling sin sin? Has anyone advocated for the use of counseling and medication to replace the Gospel?
Ryan, did you read David’s last sentence?
You must have missed Jess’ comment.
Ryan,
Read Jess and Lydia above.
David
Vol,
I apologize profusely. I did not see Jess’ comment above.
Your comment now makes a LOT more sense.
Ryan,
It’s all good, Bro.
David
“I guess, back when I was lost and living in rebellion, that I RHD(rebellious heart disorder), and ALD(alcohol loving disorder), and WSS(weed smoking syndrome), and LED(Lustful Eye Disorder), and I also was diagnosed with ADD, OCD, and FAT.
So, since I had these disorders, it didn’t make me a sinner. I just had psychological problems. I guess the answer to my disorders and syndromes was counseling and pills, instead of Jesus. But alas, I didn’t know any better. So, instead I got a good dose of salvation, and the Holy Spirit moved in, and did a life-changing work in my heart. ”
And what does that have to do with unbelievers that have not gone through that? And do not want to?
And why would you think that I do NOT think those are sins but disorders? I think sometimes you guys spend so much time in your bubbles you are not able to have any sort of conversation that is not in your christianese language.
Actually, there ARE such things has hermaphodites? Are you not aware of that? Is being a hermaphodite a sin?
I see all sorts of gender confusion out there that is not the same thing as a physical condition. That is NOT what I am talking about. I am talking about a PHYSICAL condition.
Which part of that do you not understand? Or was your comment just a way to be cute and lump everyone into the same sin category as you once were?
There can be no gospel presentation (good news) without revelation of sin and its price (bad news).
If we don’t convey the truth about the bondage and hopelessness of sinfulness and Gods wrath toward it to an individual then from what are we offering them atonement, freedom and deliverance?
I’ve heard it like this “no one gets saved, until
they realize they’re lost.”.
Dave Miller,
The point I’m trying to make is unless one is a certified councilor, they have no business addressing mental health issues. If preachers are not certified councilors, they had better stick with the spiritual, and leave the mind to the professionals. Shucks, a lot of preachers I know have mental disorders themselves. Why don’t they read the bible and get cured, if you think the bible is a fix all. I have a dear friend who is getting ready to go through her third brain tumor surgery, maybe I can read the bible to her and she won’t have to have the surgery. What I am saying is there are conditions that happen in the brain that knowing the bible doesn’t help. I hope that clears up any misunderstandings.
counselor*
I do not see a clear separation between the mental, physical and the spiritual. They are completely interwoven. When someone is experiencing a mental health issue they need total care that encompasses the mind, body and spirit.
I think that you are drawing a distinction that isn’t there when you assert that some things should only be treated by a mental health counselor alone.
Certainly, pastors sometimes (often) need to refer people to counselors who have more knowledge and expertise with mental health issues. When that happens we do not draw a line and say that a problem is purely a mental health issue and that the person no longer needs spiritual health.
When a person has a broken leg, we don’t send them to the doctor’s office and say, “Well now that he has a doctor taking care of his broken leg, he no longer needs to get his heart right with God.”
How could we leave God out of any part of our lives when we know that He is the supreme answer? A broken leg may seem purely physical, but the person with the broken leg also has spiritual needs, just as anyone else.
And yes, many of us in the church experience mental health issues, spiritual issues and physical health issues. Being a Christian or even a pastor does not mean that we will not have problems.
“””maybe I can read the bible to her and she won’t have to have the surgery.”””
Why not? I’ve known a couple people who have been healed through prayer based upon Biblical truth.
I’ve lived six decades on this earth and have never seen or heard of a doctor “healing” anybody. In fact, I know of person’s having the exact procedure with the same doctor, and rather than being “healed,” they died.
Again, you demonstrate zero confidence in God’s power and the power of God’s Book. Yet, you accuse those that differ with you as having “mental problems.”
If it is all the same to you, I am going to trust God for any healing I need. Should he want to use doctors and medicine, that’s OK with me also.
Jack,
Good for you!
What defines something as a mental health issue? That seems to be your drum to bang in this, but you never define it. Can something physically go wrong with the brain? Absolutely, I don’t think anyone here would argue that point.
The question is, how do you know something is wrong in the brain? To dismiss: emotional, relational, and perception problems to the realm of medical need carte blanche is just as reckless as ignoring physical problems.
Michael,
I will define mental health issues as a condition that does, and can do harm to an individual. such as depression, thinking, and behavior, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, eating, or not, addiction, and a host of other issues.
Michael, if I came to you and told you I keep hearing voices in my head, and they keep telling me to hide somewhere so no one could find me, because someone is wanting to take my life. Suppose you’re a pastor and not a certified councilor, what scripture would you pull out of the bible for me to be healed as some here on voices alluded to. What if you didn’t sense I would take my own life if the voices didn’t stop. My friend wouldn’t that make you guilty of my death if you didn’t send me to a mental health professional, as soon as you heard my story. Scripture is not good for Mental problems.
I mentioned this once, and it’s worthy to mention one more time. Why doesn’t insurance pay for Christian councilors, and yet insurance pays for Psychiatric care. The reason for that is Psychiatry is proven worthy to be in the medical field.
Let the Christian councilors handle the spiritual matters, and the professionals handle the rest. I support Christian counseling as long as they are certified and know when to send someone to a Psychiatrist.
I have done my best to convince folks on here to be extremely careful how you handle your members with mental problems. As a result my faith has even been questioned. I may have less faith than any of you, but I think I have enough to exercise a little common sense along with the faith. I prefer to call it wisdom.
If the gift of healing is still in effect today, and there are divine healers. Then I sure need your prayers because of my blindness and cancer. Truthfully, I’m not concerned with either one, after losing two daughters, no sickness is going to concern me. God’s Grace brought me this far, I reckon God’s Grace will take me the rest of the way.
I don’t hide behind anything, and it doesn’t bother me one bit to stir up the water and make it muddy. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
*counselor
I doubt many (I won’t say all) would say that if you hear voices (not SBCVoices) you should be counselled with Bible verses.
However, your list includes: depression, anxiety, and addiction. Those things in and of themselves do not rise to the level of mental breakdown in and of themselves. Could they be, yes, but they aren’t simply because you say so.
Anxiety is sin. Addiction is sin. Depression may very well be sin, deeper conversation and understanding would be needed.
Common sense would go a long way in determining all these things, but you seem to take every possible mental/emotional problem and instantly elevate it to the level of physical breakdown that demands medication.
You do realize a psychologist has never cured anyone. They take a guess based on a conversation or two, prescribe some medication, and see if you “feel” better in a few weeks. Rinse, wash, repeat.
Michael,
With all due respect, you are just not getting it. You have no idea what you are talking about.
I will take that insulting condescension as an end to the discussion then.
Michael, thank you for sharing.
My brother heard voices. He tried to silence them with alcohol. I buried him at the age of 42. Our family tried everything we could to help him: drugs, doctors, preachers, tears. All this helped to some degree.
He drank from the time he was 14 to eight months before he died. Nothing could help him quit–not even the doctors warning him his next drink could kill him. He desperately wanted to quit–he couldn’t.
Then, he found the faith he had lost years before. Overnight he quit drinking. It was a miracle. The poison had taken an irreversible toll on his body, but his faith became stronger every day until he died.
Faith is powerful. The Word of God is powerful. Doctors are to the Hands of God what a scalpel is to a surgeon. Mental health issues will take all the resources a family can muster–and then some.
Many times, whatever a family does will not seem like enough. In the end, the only real hope is for a new beginning; and, that only comes from God.
Jack, I agree 100%. I grew up in a house with mental illness. I tell people you haven’t been beaten until you’ve been beaten by a man who thinks you are the Vietcong.
There are people who need real medical help, no one disputes that, but the ultimate healer is Christ in His Gospel. Your brother is a testimony to that.
What I can’t understand is the Christian who kicks everything out of the church and to the secular world that has no Truth and has no hope, only medication.
Again, thanks for sharing Michael. Also, if your Dad is a Vietnam Vet, he may have had issues, but he’s a real hero in my eyes.
Michael said:
“…depression, anxiety, and addiction. Those things in and of themselves do not rise to the level of mental breakdown in and of themselves.”
Is that your opinion as a Psychiatrist? Depression can lead to suicide. Is that not serious enough?
“Anxiety is sin. Addiction is sin. Depression may very well be sin, deeper conversation and understanding would be needed.”
Anxiety and depression go hand-in-hand in many cases. If depression is not necessarily sin, is the anxiety sinful? Addiction may start as sin, but there is a very real physical component after addiction is achieved. Would you suggest no medical treatment for a heroin addict going through life-threatening withdrawal?
Speaking as a Christian who struggles with depression and anxiety, I know the “don’t be anxious for anything” verses. I pray for help all the time, but relief does not always come. Mental illness does not fit easily into a neat package (such as a broken leg). The brain is orders of magnitude more complex than any other part of the body and not nearly as well understood. Dismissing any mental illness as sin is premature at best, damaging to the patient at worst.
(By the way, Psychiatrists are just as much Medical Doctors as Oncologists, Cardiologists and Orthopedic Surgeons.)
“I grew up in a house with mental illness. I tell people you haven’t been beaten until you’ve been beaten by a man who thinks you are the Vietcong.”
That is sad. What kind of help did he get? Did it include medication? Did medication help?
It seems to me that to your definition of mental illness doesn’t start until someone becomes delusional. If that is the case, with all due respect, that is ignorant.
I would never abandon God as a source of help for anything, but if you are ill, see a physician (which can include a Psychiatrist).
Ken, you misunderstand my position; and that is okay as I have only been giving it in response to other things. Mental illness is not limited to delusion. I understand that and would never hold to that as a hard standard.
“Is that your opinion as a Psychiatrist? Depression can lead to suicide. Is that not serious enough?”
– Is that your opinion as a Psychiatrist? What medical test determines whether one is depressed and suicidal? What medical test determines which medication should be given and how much of it should be given?
“Speaking as a Christian who struggles with depression and anxiety, I know the “don’t be anxious for anything” verses. I pray for help all the time, but relief does not always come.”
– I get that, I have looked down the barrel of a loaded gun, literally. Help does not necessarily come when we want it, but on God’s timetable. I’m sure you know that, and no that doesn’t make it easier, but it is where we are called by Christ to rest. We all have things that we will struggle against daily in this life. The Puritans wrote about the dark night of the soul, we are not immune to the troubles of the world, but we are the only ones who have any hope.
“By the way, Psychiatrists are just as much Medical Doctors as Oncologists, Cardiologists and Orthopedic Surgeons.”
– Agreed Psychiatrists are MD’s, not PhD, but if they are doctors as much as the rest, then you can tell me what medical tests they run to test the brain of their ill and diseased patients. I’ll wait.
Did he get help? Not while I lived at the home. When he did, did it help? No, no it didn’t.
I don’t wish to negate the fact that the brain can “break” like a limb. But we have to as Christians stop surrendering to the secular world because the DSM says so. What was a mental illness 20 years ago is now considered courageous. What the church called sins 100 years ago are now considered “disorders”. We have to stop letting the world determine how we read our Bibles.
Very well said.
“I don’t wish to negate the fact that the brain can “break” like a limb. But we have to as Christians stop surrendering to the secular world because the DSM says so. What was a mental illness 20 years ago is now considered courageous. What the church called sins 100 years ago are now considered “disorders”. We have to stop letting the world determine how we read our Bibles.”
This, this, this!!
I agree with Ken, I have never abandoned God as a source of help. I depend on God in all spiritual matters. When it comes to physical or mental matters, not so much. This is where I draw the line, I depend almost entirely on doctors when an illness is not spiritual.
Before any of us ever existed, before the world was even created, God knew/knows by his infinite wisdom, the very second, the very minute, hour, and day I will die. God even knew my doctors by name before the world was created. I am going to die, that is an appointment I have to keep. God knew/knows how desperately I try to hang on to life. The Apostle Paul had a doctor at his side, Dr. Luke. Prayer or scripture reading will not keep me from my appointment. God uses doctors to help clear the way so I can meet my appointment.
With this said, many things such as our thoughts, knowledge, or lack thereof, will try to take our eyes off the cross. I look to the cross for my salvation. I do not follow God because of what he can do for me. I follow God because of what he has done for me at the cross. My faith is in Christ’s death ,burial, and resurrection. God called me, because he first loved me, and nothing in this world could have stopped me from running to him.
Many of you know what a rough life I have had, but the gift of faith in the cross got me through. I don’t need any thing from God except his love, and spiritual guidance. The doctors can take care of the rest.
God’s will is going to be done whether I like it or not. I don’t have the power to change his will, no matter how good I live or what I try to do for him, God’s will is going to be done. Bad things are going to happen, there can be a World War III. I can do nothing to stop it, no amount of prayer or scripture reading will stop it. My responsibility is to get the message of the cross into all the world, starting on my own street.
No, I don’t follow God for what he can do for me, I follow him for what he has done at the cross. Mental and physical needs are in the hands of the doctors. Faith helps the healing process, but when the time comes to meet my appointment, nothing will stop it.
I’ll say again, with many mental conditions, patients will not even know or comprehend what you are talking about. In many cases it can even hurt by causing a patient to feel bad about themselves. Let the professionals handle it. God put them here. I just thank God for the cross.