I pastor a church with some of the most tradition-loving Baptists you will find anywhere. I’ve maintained for nearly 10 years that I pastor two churches that meet in the same building, share a church staff and usually get along pretty well. One church, called Southern Hills Baptist Church, meets at 8:30 in the morning on Sundays. We sing out of the hymnal with piano accompaniment, wear a lot of ties and coats, and aren’t much different from the church of 1972. Many would agree with Prince Caspian when he observed that he had seen progress in an egg and called it “going bad.” Many of the attenders at 8:30 would view every innovation in the church since 1967 as a perversion of God’s plan!
I also pastor Southern Hills Baptist Church, which meets at 11:00 AM on Sundays, has a praise team and sings “contemporary” (sort of) praise and worship songs. Our contemporary folks would pass as traditionalists in a lot of places – we are not exactly hipsters here in the SUX (yes, folks, that is our airport’s regional designation – I kid you not).
So, I’ve got a group of traditional, conservatives who gather for a mildly contemporary service at 11 and I’ve got a group of true traditionalists who meet at 8:30 in the morning to sing the old hymns the old way! I kid about pastoring two churches, but only a little. We are one church, but we often find ourselves of two minds. The traditionalist mindset of the early service group and the slightly less traditional, more willing to innovate mindset of the second service group sometimes diverge.
Let me tell you two stories about my traditionalists and their traditional love of traditional traditions. (Too much?)
I sit on the front row during the music. Why? Because the previous pastor did. Why? Because the pastor before him did, I guess. The traditional service used to meet at 11:00 until attendance dwindled to the point where we switched the services around. At the 11 AM traditional service, early in my tenure, a young man wearing a ball cap wandered in and sat down a few rows behind me. I always try to make the gospel clear in every message I preach, but that day I was focusing on it. One of our ushers went up to the young man and told him that he either needed to remove his ball cap or leave the church. Of course, he left the church.
When I found out about this (after church), I was incensed. Are you kidding me? We were willing to make a young man leave the church rather than allow him to hear the gospel wearing a ball cap? So, at the next deacons meeting I raised the issue, assuming everyone would share my ire. I was shocked that with the exception of one younger deacon, the feeling was that while it could have been handled better that young man should have known better than to wear a hat in church. Many of those deacons are singing hymns in Glory’s choir now (I hope the harps aren’t electric!), but I left that meeting with my head spinning.
A couple of years later, we were doing a deacon ordination council for a man who had been a long time member of another church in town, known for it’s strict stands on a lot of issues. Good man. Qualified deacon. We grilled him a little till he was roasted to perfection, and we were ready to proceed with recommending him for ordination. Then, he got serious, put his head down a little, and asked if he could say something.
“I don’t know if this is going to make any difference, but there’s something I ought to tell you before you vote on me.” I caught my breath a little. Criminal record? Had a previous divorce escaped our notice? Was he a drug kingpin? From his tone, it sounded serious! “Sometimes,” he told us in somber tone. “On a Sunday afternoon, I like to do a little yardwork and gardening.”
I laughed (and offended him by doing it). I thought he was pulling our legs. It happens at our deacons’ meetings – I’m not sure why people think cutting up is appropriate around me. But he was dead serious. I guess that at his previous church doing any kind of yardwork on a Sunday would have gotten you the left foot of fellowship. We ordained him and he served well as a deacon.
Now, here’s the point of all this.
On August 27, I will celebrate my 37th anniversary with my wife and finish my 10th year as pastor of Southern Hills Baptist Church (both churches – does that make 20 years?). There are many times in those years when I’ve been frustrated with the traditionalism of the traditionalists. Change comes very slowly at Southern Hills. I’m not a “my way or the highway” kind of leader (maybe that’s what SHBC needs). I work by consensus and it’s not always easy to develop with such divergent mindsets.
Because of that, I’ve had to abandon some plans and ideas I’ve thought were good plans and ideas. A year ago, we had an idea that I think was really good. The leadership of the church was behind it, but the traditionalists kicked up such a fuss that in the name of unity we pulled it, at least for a time. It put the leadership in a bad place. Do we do what we believe is best for the church even though it might cause a mutiny among our traditionalists? Progress or peace? Tough choice!
I’ve tried to explain things to our traditionalists. As much as we may look back with longing to the days gone by, the world today is not what is was then. While we cannot change the message, we must change our methods in a changing world. The church culture of the 50s and early 60s was good for reaching the culture of the 50s and early 60s and it worked. But this is not that world. The world has changed and the church that says “we are going to do things exactly the way we did them 50 years ago” is going to run into some serious problems in reaching the world for Jesus. The church culture of the 50s is not going to reach the world of the 21st Century. We have to change when the world changes. I’ve said that 4.325 million times, but it hasn’t really sunk in. It’s easy to get a little bit frustrated.
But as frustrated as I’ve been with these traditionalists, I’ve also learned a few things about them through the years, things I think that some other churches and pastors may have forgotten. My church’s traditionalists are responsible for quite a few of my gray hairs, for some of my sleepless nights and for a little aggravation, but they are some of my best friends, loyal supporters, pillar members and more importantly – they are faithful servants of Jesus Christ at Southern Hills Baptist Church!
Let me share a few thoughts about loving traditionalists in the church.
1. The traditionalists love Jesus.
They hate drums and guitars. Many of them think small groups are some sort of commie plot to destroy Sunday night services. They don’t like innovation – not one bit! They don’t like new-fangled technology and strategery.
But they LOVE Jesus. They love the Word. Argue methods and strategies and priorities with the older generation, my young whippersnapper friends, but please don’t assume that because they hate the music with which you worship Jesus that they don’t love the Jesus you worship. Don’t assume that because they hate the changes you’ve made in your church that they love the Jesus you made the changes to serve any less than you do. Don’t pretend that your willingness to change is evidence of a greater love for Jesus.
I will never see eye to eye with some of my dear, close friends in the church, but neither will I be able to make them see things my way. They honestly believe that God is more glorified by songs sung from a hymnal accompanied by a piano instead of those sung off screens with a band. God is more honored by the old ways than the new. I’ve realized that they aren’t just being obstinate or difficult. It’s in their hearts. It’s their convictions. Fifty, sixty, seventy years of worship has reinforced this idea. I may not agree, but I have to realize that they aren’t just being difficult, they are being convictional!
I can bully them if I want. I can win a vote against them if I want. I can defeat them. But I would rather respect them and understand them. I will never agree with them, but I understand that they genuinely love Jesus and see the world through completely different lenses than I do.
These traditionalists love Jesus. They are not willing to listen to guitars and drums during worship, but they would willingly die for Jesus. I don’t understand that, but I believe it.
2. The church has often abandoned older folks and traditionalists.
Why don’t these people go to Billy Sunday anymore? It’s doesn’t exist. Two things happened. One of their former pastors decided to modernize the church and introduced contemporary music. Horror! They up and left!
But the Tab wasn’t the only church that followed that pattern. Pretty much every evangelical church in town has decided that contemporary music is the path to reach people. The older folks, the traditionalists who liked the hymns, were basically told to like it or lump it! That is only a slight exaggeration. Because we have a traditional service, we became a gathering place for folks who felt chased out of their lifelong church homes.
My dad is a traditionalist of the higher order. He pastored churches in Texas, Iowa, Taiwan, and Florida, as well as several interims, until health issues forced him to the sidelines. He has told me, “We should do things today the way we did them in the 60s and 70s, and the church would be in much better shape.” He told me one time (my paraphrase),
Dave, I don’t understand church anymore. I gave my entire life to the church, and it has thrown my generation away. I don’t understand the songs we sing. I don’t understand the sermons the preachers preach. Nothing is familiar or normal. The church I devoted my life to is gone.
Look at it from the perspective of the 80 year old in the modern American church. For 60 years, church was pretty much the same, then in the last couple of decades everything has blown up. Are the changes effective? Perhaps, but that’s not the point. Suddenly, these folks go to the same church they’ve attended for 65 years and nothing is familiar.
They feel abandoned, neglected and unwanted. And, honestly, it’s not all untrue. I’ve heard young people talk about the elderly as if they were a hindrance to the work of God. (Yes, that goes both ways!)
3. The traditionalists have born the burden of change.
This is one of those “duh” observations, but in most churches, the norm has completely reversed. For most of history, the young have had to fit in with the old who were respected. Now, old is an insult and we prize and value the young. It is the old and established who have to mold themselves to the ways of the young.
This is unique in history – when the church is run by youth culture and tells the old to adjust.
4. There’s a lot to learn from the traditionalists.
There is a fidelity and institutional stability among the traditionalists that is admirable. When they make a commitment to a church they make a commitment. Younger folks are must less institutional (that can be both good and bad) and are much more likely to move from church to church. The kind of commitment it took to fight and win World War II made an impact on that generation.
They may, at times, hold on to traditions as if they are biblical imperatives. They may get cranky over secondary issues. They may not be willing to adjust to new things. And certainly, at times, they make the mistake of over-prioritizing their traditions.
But the wise church realizes that there is much to gain from the wisdom of the ages, even from the traditional traditions of the traditionalists!
5. As with racial segregation, age-segregation is a blight on the church.
I understand the desire of young people to be with young people and seniors to hang with seniors. It’s normal and natural. I’m not convinced that Family Integrated church is the only way or even the best way to do church (not trying to make that a fight here).
Too many churches are age-divided and that is not healthy. Older people should teach the younger the ways of God – not just their traditions and how things used to be, but how to walk with Jesus. Younger people can provide an energy and enthusiasm that keeps the church moving. Both old and young have their place and their purpose, and the church has only gray heads or only young hipsters is probably unhealthy.
Conclusion
In the next few months I will probably find myself frustrated with the traditionalists at Southern Hills Baptist Church over something. Some brilliant idea I come up with will flounder because it’s not the way we’ve always done it. But every Sunday and Wednesday (it’s the traditionalists who show up for our midweek prayer service) I will love and appreciate the fellowship, the faithfulness, the devotion to Christ, the love for the Word, and their partnership in the work of the church.
The traditionalism of traditionalists can be frustrating. But at Southern Hills Baptist Church, they help to form the backbone of our ministry and I am thankful to God for what they give to
Before anyone starts in – I’ve heard comments from both sides in this debate that make me sad. I’ve heard young folks that speak of older and traditional folks as if they simply don’t love Jesus because of their love for traditions. I’ve heard older folks who think that young whippersnappers abandoned the faith when they abandoned the hymnal. That kind of silliness goes both ways.
The point of this post is not to choose between ecclesiologically progressive folks and traditionalists, but to point out that loving Jesus is not the exclusive domain of either side.
By the way, some of the most traditionalist people I know are “contemporary” – they’ve just replaced one set of traditions with another. That’s a whole different article.
Pastoral ministry is just down right hard. I don’t think the debate is over traditional versus contemporary, it is whether or not a pastor and church can work together to reach the lost and make disciples. Sadly, I think tradition trumps evangelism and discipleship in many churches. i.e. ‘son, take your hat off or leave.’
I pray those who read this article are able to be in ministries/missions/churches that allow them that freedom.
That usher, by the way, is no longer with us, and I don’t think that same thing would happen.
I understand where you are coming from, but my point is that we need to understand that traditionalist folks are not evil. They have a set of convictions that many don’t share today and that are frustrating, but they have some great points, too.
I’m an odd bird in that I’m a younger generation “traditionalist”. Well, I’m 35, but I’m still far more traditional than my peers (especially my peers at seminary where many of them are younger than me).
I don’t despise contemporary worship, however I don’t prefer it. There is a point however, where it gets “too contemporary” and it starts to bug me…for two reasons. First, because it starts to feel like the worship is more of an act of entertainment than an act of worship, and second it bothers me because I know it shouldn’t bother me.
I love hymns, and I think it’s a crying shame that hymnals sit dusty in the backs of pews these days. I think the hymnal is a hugely overlooked devotional book. I like to look for the links between some hymns and scripture. Yes, there are many theologically absurd hymns, but there are many that give me chills. There is something special about reading the words together from a hymnal with music that is accompanying at a volume where you can actually hear the people around you singing. This love of mine makes me feel a little left out though because people look at me weird when I tell them I don’t own any CCM CD’s, I don’t listen to Christian Radio and I only know Chris Tomlin’s name in passing (although I have recently began to really dig the Getty’s). I could probably go a good long while without ever hearing “Cornerstone” again. I could, however discuss the hymns of Isaac Watts or Charles Wesley all day long, and I think I’m going to listen to “Come Thou Fount” right now.
I know I’m weird, and I know I’m in a small minority (especially in my generation). I would never, however break fellowship over it. However, I would probably not intentionally pursue a church that I knew had an overly contemporary worship as their only option. Again, this bothers me because it bothers me and I know it shouldn’t.
It does make me sad that, as you say many are making contemporary worship a “tradition” and shunning anyone one prefers a more “classic” worship style.
Is it oversimplifying to differentiate between “traditional” – having a love for the old ways – and traditionalist? The traditionalist holds on to those old ways and sanctifiies them.
I don’t think so. I don’t see myself as holding on to them and sanctifying them, I just like old hymns, and I find something special about a “traditional” or “classic” service, even if it’s a once in a while thing. So, I’m “traditional” but not a “traditionalist”. Am I getting what you are saying?
I like Bach also. I would say that puts me in another minority of people my age.
I think we are on the same page, not counting that Bach part.
“There is something special about reading the words together from a hymnal with music that is accompanying at a volume where you can actually hear the people around you singing.”
I would simply point out that it is entirely possible to sing that same hymn with the words on a screen, with a piano, bass, drums, & guitar playing at a volume where you can actually hear the people around you singing…AND it is entirely possible to sing that same hymn out of hymnals along with a pipe organ so loud that you cannot hear anyone singing. 🙂
Nice.
The words on the screen bit is a problem with me. I think it could be the means to lower the musical knowledge and skills of the people. The SBc use to have musical schools in which the people learned the notes, etc. Our hymnals with those notes and other musical elements were designed to help people sing in unison. Words on a screen without the notes, etcs., seems like to me as a first class invitation to mess up our singing but good about 40-50 years down the road. Also, admittedly, I do grow weary of the drums, metal music (heavy and otherwise), but we have a piano, sax, flute, and sometimes even an organ (electric). Having grown up with B Western music (mostly classical as I discovered years later), I have found my taste for music runs to that kind, although I can and do like some country, western, and even rock ‘n roll. Our church has two Sundays a month with contemporary and the other Sundays traditional. It has cost us a few members. Our son has been here for 16 years, well-liked, and takes a position of introducing things much like yours, Dave. Sometimes I think he has two churches, too. But I do remember that the music of the 1700s was just as shocking. Pshaw, when the Baptists first came out of the pre-Reformation period (and, no, I am not a Landmarker), they didn’t sing at all (after all, singing would have been a dead give away to being part of a religious group not under the control of the established church and that would have cost people their lives). Having not sung in a thousand years or so, the first church fight in the Reformation period among Baptists was whether to sing at all or not. The old line Primitive Baptists still line out their hymns and do not allow any musical instruments, but, if they were going to be faithful to the tradition, they should not even have any singing at all. One could make a case for the fact that, if you have not sung in over a 1000 years, then the word must have something to cover that, too.
I have no problem w/ that. Or an orchestra. It was an over generalization on my part. I visited a church once where I really enjoyed the music, and everyone around me was singing, you just couldn’t hear them.
Part of the hymnal thing for me was hinted at below. Nobody seems to “sing parts” any more. When I was growing up the men sang the bass and tenor “parts”, the ladies sang the soprano and alto “parts” — you know, the harmonies that were written in the hymnal. That is part of what is missing w/ just having the words on the screen.
I’m glad you we able to grow up with that experience. I grew up in a very traditional church (piano-organ-hymnal) in which hardly anybody sang, or at least everyone that sang purposely sang so quiet as to intentionally not be heard, but moved their mouth so they would appear to be singing. So in my youth, hymnals did not help us sing. I’m not blaming the hymnals, mind you.
“… words on a screen …”
I can still remember my father’s declaration after experiencing that in church for the first time “They’re singing off the wall over there now!” He used to love parking his car on Sunday evenings outside the local pentecostal church and humming the hymns along with the trumpet (didn’t have those in our SBC church … pentecostals or trumpets!). But, somehow, I grew up to be Bapti-costal any way.
I’ve been a Southern Baptist for over 60 years. I’ve experienced all shapes and sizes of “worship.” I don’t have a problem with form as long as there is some substance to it. My old eyes can actually see the words on a screen better than in the hymn books these days … but my old legs get weary on those 7-11 songs ;^)
“Too many churches are age-divided and that is not healthy. Older people should teach the younger the ways of God – not just their traditions and how things used to be, but how to walk with Jesus. Younger people can provide an energy and enthusiasm that keeps the church moving.”
Dave, I wonder how this plays out in your church? Is the early service mostly older folks? If so, how does their wisdom impact the rest of the church?
Yes, pretty much. The traditional service is predominantly older folks. There are a few young folks, but not many. The second service has many ages – from young to old.
Sounds like the two service thing was there when you got there. Knowing what you know about the situation there, would you create a traditional and contemporary service to appease both sides?
Yes it was. No, I wouldn’t.
You ain’t seen nuttin yet! The future coming at us is unimaginable and incomprehensible. Our problem is that we have become mired in a rather rigid method of looking at the Bible. We do resemble the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the former more than the latter these days after the voting during the decade of the eighties.
Part of the problem is that we need to lay foundations that are conservative and traditional in many respects, showing that they are such and yet just as modern and contemporary as could ever be desired. Our leaders are trying to pick their way through a wilderness of modernity and contemporaneity with less attention to the traditional, not realizing that sometimes the latter just might be ahead of the former. However, such presupposes a good deal more knowledge of the intellectual and ideological content of the Bible as well as its design for fitness for any and all situations.; the Book is always relative to any age and any stage of relativity. Our problem is that we do not grasp that reality. Our methodology is not designed to comprehend such seeming vagaries. Wait until you find out that Holy Writ also comprehends the quantum view of Planck as well as the Sir Isaac’s Newtonian understanding of the world. We have yet to make that shift.
In any case, one can and should lay a case for the contemporaneous as the normal, natural, and expected development of the traditional. Just consider the case that the Baptist preachers must have laid in Virginia in the 1700s, when they went back to their communities to encourage their young men to enlist in the Patriots Cause, that is, in a full-fledged civil war against a duly constituted government, even one with the most freedom for the masses in that day and time (even though they were wanting in many respects).
I feel dumb… 🙂
Well, your not, and I am an egalitarian and that would put us both in the same class. :):):):):). I am not smarter than anybody. Anyone can do the research, if they are willing to pay the price of long hours, lots of notecards, etc.
Egalitarian? Dumb? I’d better not comment!
Duh!
I did a study in our church.The average age of our Sunday School 13 years ago was 43. Today it is 54. I find that this is not very disturbing to those who love traditions for traditions sake.
I threw out to the wind terminologies like “traditional, blended, contemporary”; Because they only provided handles for each defined group to hold on to their turf.
By not showing attention, much less preference, to any one age or interest group, we live out,
“My friends, when you meet to worship, you must do everything for the good of everyone there.” I Cor. 14:26
By keeping this verse and principle of shared ministry before our people in print and action, we entertain very few complaints about “why we can’t be more or less modern, and why we aren’t like so-and-so church.”
We remain plateaued in growth but the spirit of our people is wonderful.
We refuse to do things to be cute, cliquish, popular or to copy some other church. What ever change we make, we make it slowly and deliberately, pacing according to wisdom. We have no wholesale approach to leaving all behind or adapting all things new.
We respect one another, our history and the desires of our younger generations.
We sing songs, hymns and Psalms that have value and meaning for our congregation and ways of multi-generational worship. We use the instruments and instrumentalists God gives us and they must play/sing with skill and integrity alone before they play/sing in public worship.
Having said all this, the Great Commission doesn’t seem to be much compassionate in any age group yet. Leadership? Narcissistic culture?
Like you Dave, my heart is greatly expanded by those grand saints who live out the very nature of Christ among us. They have cried and sweated in labor for their church and family. They don’t feel or act as if they own the church, yet they live very close to it and its people. Without them…
Good word.
Dave,
I will very soon be writing the journey our church has been on for almost 10 years. The work of God in me as a Pastor and our people has been awesome. Knowing what to push and when and how as been telling lesson.
Keep doing what you are doing. One day, you will get a nudge in your gut that says “it’s time to unite these two!” and you will see what can do – it has been awesome for us.
Well, that’s what we tried last year that didn’t go well.
I understand!
I’m not gunning at anyone. But each generation gets to choose what is and isn’t church. That SOME of those churches remain biblical ought to be cause for both joy and praise. I’m not sure how God intends to handle the ones that do not remain biblical (I’m using that adjective rather broadly, but let’s just keep it as “doing things the way based on the focus and priorities of the Bible”), but I have to believe he has a plan and most likely that plan isn’t exactly designed by men.
There are times when I’ve leaned towards one side or the other. In high school I explained to a fellow MK who played piano why I enjoyed hymns. She chose not to play for the church after that in services because there were SOME hymns (circa 1975-76 at Kebayoran Baptist’s English service.)
Later in high school and early in college I was thrilled with “praise music” especially in Sunday evening worship. As part of that I was a member at Aldersgate Methodist in College Station because it was close to the campus (I could walk and didn’t have a car) and preached the Bible. You all would be surprised at the look on my face when, almost five years later, I discovered it had been a charismatic church the whole time… Now I’m a “pragmatic cessationist” so you’d think I was incensed. But for whatever reason, at no service that I attended did I hear a single person speak in tongues or pray in tongues near me or on the podium. (I did attend a time or two on Sunday morning. That was not “my church” much in the same way there are distinct congregational opportunities at Dave’s.)
At Parkway Baptist in College Station both before and after my time at SWBTS we had an organ player that simply would not under any circumstances play any music that wasn’t in the hymnal. I loved the man dearly and respected his choice. And when I was asked to lead music on Wednesday nights I knew I’d lead some of it a cappella. And as far as I could tell, he didn’t hold that against me, either.
I’m not saying every single person gets to dictate whether individually or in a group how a congregation congregates. But having the ability to accept differences is very much a two-way street. I personally believe that Paul spent a lot of time emphasizing compromises in his epistles specifically so that–inspired by the Holy Spirit–we would choose a balance between things that are important to us and things that we “relent” on.
Compromises on stances such as eating meat (presumably) sacrificed to idols. Not on core doctrine.
Let me share just an opinion. If you have two services, try to avoid having different styles. It leads to different churches and causes problems down the road. Musical styles should never be that important.
I know there are arguments on the other side, but my opinion is – unite around one form of worship. One church, one worship.
One opinion.
Should have read on and would have found the answer to my question above.
The church I attend had two service until recently. Both services were the same (same songs, same message, etc). This was more for logistic reasons for Sunday School.
We now have one service where everyone is in it. It is also nice in that we have baptisms in the morning services. Before you may not see someone be baptized since it was not “your” service. Now we get to see everyone baptized.
At our SBC Church, We generally sing about half “old hymns” and half “new hymns” (The historical definition of a hymn is “A song of praise to God.” …so I think they are all hymns). While these hymns may have updated accompaniments (Acoustic guitar, bass, drums, piano), we work hard to maintain the original melodies on most of them, so anybody who knows them from 50-60 years ago can sing along easily. Some Sundays the balance is heavier one direction or another, but I doubt we’ll change this pattern any time soon, even if we feel we could “get away” with doing less or no old hymns…They aren’t just for the old people….Our young people need to learn those too.
Let me give the perspective of one who grew up in a very traditional Baptist church, but who for the past 20 years has been in contemporary worship services – I have no desire to go back to the old ways. Why? It gets old hearing the Seven Fold Amen as the closing hymn to every service, or in the case of my grandparents’ church having the Doxology in the middle of every service. It seems the services became too formulaic – the opening hymn might be “When Morning Guilds the Skies” and the hymn of invitation was one of four songs: “Just As I am”, “I Have Decided to Follow Jesus”, “Only Trust Him” or “Softly and Tenderly, Jesus is Calling”.
There’s nothing theologically wrong with any of these songs or having them at a certain point in the service, I just prefer not to experience the same thing every Sunday from now till the Rapture, and many others obviously feel this way, too.
Contemporary Services can easily become formulaic, too, however, one reality of Contemporary Christian Music is the commercial aspect of it, that is the recording artists make their livelihood off of their singing and therefore, they are always producing new songs, many of which are sung in church worship services. This will insure that a few songs will not be sung as a routine every week (Although I will say that “Shout to the Lord did get overplayed in the late 1990’s – early 2000’s, LOL!).
Since the traditionalists love to hear the Seven Fold Amen every Sunday, and I and many others don’t, what’s wrong with having two different services where the members of the church can worship in the style that they enjoy? I can understand where the pastor may not be enthusiastic about preaching the same service twice, however, you could have a video version of the sermon at the contemporary service if that is an issue (A video sermon would never go over with the traditionalists, LOL!, however many multi-site churches are doing this and are growing, too).
1. I think Dave has illustrated in his OP why 2 different services of 2 different styles are not ideal…It is because you will, in effect have 2 different churches, divided most likely along generational lines (with some overlap). You will have traditionalists being confirmed in their belief that they should be able to dictate what kind of worship they have, and you will have contemporarians (?) missing out on some of the wisdom that a lifetime of experience brings.,.and missing out on some really good old hymns. Also, you will likely not have the joy of an 80 yr old grandma worshiping next to her 15 year old grand-daughter, united in Christ to such a degree that even jews and gentiles, slaves & their masters, could worship together.
2. Regarding video, I’ve become convinced that in a mult-service, or even muti-site church, live pastor/preachers is better, even if it’s not the famous “lead pastor”. They can interact with the congregation, and can address them more directly and personally than a video.
“Look at it from the perspective of the 80 year old in the modern American church. For 60 years, church was pretty much the same, then in the last couple of decades everything has blown up. Are the changes effective? Perhaps, but that’s not the point.”
The problem, as I see it, is that being effective should be the point. I don’t want to pick on traditional traditionalists (contemporary traditionalists can be just as guilty), but if anything in our churches – other than biblical doctrine – is held up as off limits to change, hasn’t that thing become an idol standing in the way of “Go, therefore, and make disciples”?
Okay, yes, we should all always be magnanimous and put away personal preference and all that. But I’m not sure the elderly are the only ones who have strong preferences in a lot of these things.
My point here is not to say that its okay to to be ineffective, but to ask younger people to try to understand why older folks have trouble seeing things the same way they do. They did church a certain way AND IT WORKED! It was good. And now everything is different, strange and weird.
And perhaps the worst part of it is that the people who have poured their lives in the church for decades are now chided as have bad attitudes and standing the way of the work of the church because they aren’t crazy about some of the changes. They’ve been loyal, hard-working church members and suddenly they find themselves painted as the bad guys because they loved the church so much – the way they did it.
Their world has been turned upside down. They don’t understand it. And suddenly the pillars of the church aren’t “missional.”
And, I will agree – many have bad attitudes and frustrate me. I live it every day. I’m just asking people to try to see it from the side of the traditionalists. Many are great people who love Jesus and have just had their minds blown by the pace of change in the modern world.
Gordon MacDonald’s book “Who Stole My Church” can be a bit cheesy at times, but it does a great job presenting a way to try to wade through the clutter and confusion of the generational divide.
Now actually being able to put such into practice…..
I wish I could click “like” to your replies: I agree wholeheartedly. The ideal and reality often don’t mesh. And the elderly certainly aren’t the only ones capable of holding tightly onto a particular methodology. Also, any change must be handled with much grace – to “chide” those who have been faithful is unnecessary, tacky even, but I have seen leaders who have refused to teach because it might be viewed as chiding or because those they are trying to teach “won’t change anyway so why bother” (and not necessarily the elderly). That also is unfortunate.
I’m not saying that the traditionalists have “bad attitudes”. If they want to sing the Doxology just before the offertory hymn and get dressed up in a coat and tie ever Sunday, great. However, for folks in the congregation, who don’t, what’s wrong with having a service which is different from that? Why should one style be considered “better” than another. I understand completely the frustration of the older folks who have poured their lives into the church and feel like they are being pushed aside. However, in twenty years, “contemporary worship” may be considered “old school”, too! Maybe the next generation will want a more contemplative service with candles and harps and could care less about loud guitars and smoke machines!
Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord
Psalm 150 King James Version (KJV)
I believe we need to be open to all these three or four styles of music (depending on your interpretation of this verse). It is just Biblical to do so. I don’t know about how wild it has to get to be Biblical, but clearly there is room for variety here.
And strange as it may seem… loud percussion and brass and dancing is clearly biblical (See below)…;)
Psalm 150 Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord.
I grew up traditional Southern Baptist, hymns every Sunday…piano and organ only. Then Pass It On and There’s a Sweet Sweet Spirit and other, then contemporary, music was added when I was a teen. I attended Christian school where I was introduced to Troublesome Times Are Near and other twangy hopping Charismatic songs by my dearest English/Music teacher who played the piano like Jerry Lee Lewis! My church tried a new purple song book for the evening service in my early 20’s and stirred up a hornets nest, but it slowly took hold, but only in the evenings and a supplement to the hymnal. Not sure how many people we lost over that. But I stayed SBC till I was over 40 and still feel it in my soul. It has been my plumb line in so many ways, unless YHWH shows me otherwise.
I spent a lot of time in the past 12 years Studying Torah and learning Hebraic music, learning and teaching Hebrew circle dancing (including worship flags and scarfs…gasp!) and concurrently worshiping and on staff (12 years) and leadership (2 years) at a local prayer center studying topics on the authority of the believer with respect to the Spirit realm (intercession, deliverance ministry, relevance of the 5-fold ministry, etc. in real world) with flowing music with no books or screens, praying, singing and playing instruments in the Spirit (no I don’t speak in tongues, my gifts lie elsewhere…but my husband does…GASP!!!!).
I am part of an organization (Come Rest/Rehoboth Wellsprings) that also puts on retreats at various churches and we have art tables and easels for the experienced artists and kids play tables in the back which actually go on during teaching and worship. We also have prayer areas in the back that operate quietly all during the day in the main sanctuary. We are pushing the envelope for creativity in worship and ministry yet when we come in we honor the host church in any way they ask of us. So if it is non charismatic we would tone down in that manner, etc. to honor them.
My husband is a worship leader and musician who plays wherever we are led. At this point in addition to the prayer center, Messianic fellowship and home groups he has most recently played flute at a very traditional…in fact 100% elderly… PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH…GASP GASP GASP!!!! Truly, I never thought I would set foot in one of THOSE! (lol)
Not only that, but for several months, I led their hymns singing…
I have found I have enjoyed my time at the Presbyterian Church singing and leading out in traditional hymns…some of which I never heard before and had to learn myself. I enjoyed it even more because the pastor (who just retired this week) and his wife are our friends and they are closet believers…closet Charismatic believers who love Israel which is very strange for Presbyterian pastors! His wife is even studying Hebrew at our local synagogue. You meet all kinds if you just get out there and experience life! It will be interesting to see how it feels without the pastor there during their search for another. 80 years old is the median age. The pastor tried for 3 years to inject some life and attract others to come. But tradition won. For now the church will stay open. It was on the chopping block at one point a few years back and a Pakistani believer gave testimony at the presbytery meeting that would have closed the church which saved it from closing.
I feel I have a very rich heritage in hymns, but have been truly blessed to be surrounded with so many wonderful musicians and new traditions in my life and I treasure them all…though I know I am so strange to all of you in my unique life.
Do you love Me more than these? Feed My lambs.
Idea:
Have one service (if possible) with hymns at 8, sermon at 9 and Contemporary at 10. All will meet one another, some may attend both.
11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
Apparently, your deacon thought he was playing the part of the king…
I prefer Gregorian chants. These new hymns like “If Thou but Suffer God to Guide Thee” and “Sing My Tongue the Glorious Battle” are of the devil.
Okay, actually those are really cool early metrical hymns that many of today’s traditionalists don’t even sing anymore. They’ve been replaced by hymns like “How Great Thou Art”, “Great is Thy Faithfulness”, “I’ll Fly Away”, etc.
Now those are pretty cool, more recent hymns, that are being replaced by contemporary hymns like “O Church Arise”, “Lord Have Mercy”, “How Deep the Father’s Love”, etc.
What about the non-hymns? We have plenty of those. Of course we’ve had classical anthem type music since the Reformation. Then there has been various gospel music like Southern Gospel, Western Gospel, Black Gospel, etc. If anything, the popularization of Black Gospel by the Brooklyn Tab Choir has gone a long way to warming up white churches to integration.
There is a sense in which people’s traditions are subject to people’s normalized experiences. It has lent to the notion of subjective morality that’s plaguing the nation today and why it has been so easy for false philosophies to infiltrate our churches.
The older traditional folks have indeed been disrespected, even by their pastors, but the younger generations learned it from them. In that sense, what they have modeled has been a more effective teacher than what they have preached. It’s easy when we’re all born sinners to begin with. No one is innocent here. The solution is less adherence to subjective man-made traditions and more humble adherence to proclaiming the true, objective gospel in everything we say and do. Now, I know that few people want to hear that, but it’s what our churches need. It means that all of us, from every generation and tradition, need to put up with things that aren’t comfortable.
When Preferences become Pre-requisites
Southern Baptist students of Music and Ministry, in the past, quite often serve in churches other than Southern Baptist. (Over-trained in music and under trained in personal relations) Often it is because of entrenched musical tastes for certain styles that are become ingrained. Yes ingrained to the point of a perquisite. Both the Minister and the majority at the church house can become thus unmovable.
Church people will tell you, “If you can’t teach, perform and lead “our” music, then look elsewhere please.” The Minister who denies this reality will not be too happy in ministry where the majority may have no intention of liking his/her music. That high-roof-in-the-mouth, intellectual stuff, the Praise Me Band, or that foot-stompin’ gospel quartet “music” any one.
The minister who must have a drummer, bass and keys on demand must look for a congregation that already has a strong majority who resonate with this design of worship setting as a preference.
I studied with TW Hunt (SWBTS) and we discussed these dynamics at length. The missionary often has to satisfy their desires for personally preferred music in their private world–get their fill, then go out and share in ministry through the music of that culture and their preference. Many will go back to Seminary or college on their sabbatical and sing in the Messiah or other great choral experiences to help fill their void.
The more varied a congregation becomes, (doesn’t happen very often—people segregate themselves along socio-economic and musical tastes whether we approve as biblical or not) the more both leaders and congregants alike must follow the biblical principle related to preferring one another in honor. (another demonstration of spiritual maturity or the lack there-of)
I tell young would-be ministers, “If you are Southern Gospel to the bone, don’t bother looking to the church that actually has a choir and a pipe organ. If you are highly educated and musically astute, please don’t rush in on the “I’ll Fly Away” crowd and try to convert them to great English choral literature. They will tell you all about their preferences and their prerequisite is that you stay away.
The great dumbing down in USA churches continues to follow the country at large. Even if we put the music along with the words on the screen, just how many people can actually read music anymore?
Most of the men will still sing the melody an octave lower.
And just think, 30 years from now our nursing homes will be flooded with Praise and Worship Songs as an actual preference of their “traditional”. Can we begin to imagine what their children and grandchildren will be singing in a church building?
I glanced through most of the posts. If someone has mentioned this and I missed it, I apologize.
One big issue in the “worship wars” is the matter of money. In many churches, the growing minority of senior folks give the majority of the money. When this is the case, “pushing them out” (someone else’s term above) can be catastrophic.
Likewise, ignoring the new growth will be catastrophic for other reasons. Here’s the rub: the older crowd can maintain the building and the programs without the new crowd–and often this is exactly the outcome of the “worship wars.” However, the new crowd cannot pay the bills without the older crowd.
Result: stalemate.
One solution (and not the only one I’m sure) is to put off a generational conflict for as long as possible. As more and more new growth comes, a resulting financial stability will eventually come about. The “traditionalists” who stay will be fully supportive of the new growth–in fact, they will have been instrumental in leading the church to embrace a new generation.
Taking a longer time to transition will result in a better blended service, that seems to meet the needs of a multi-generational congregation. The music will be “contemporary” but not “edgy.” The programs will have a ring of familiarity but also a freshness.
This will not be a “millennial-driven ministry.” That will likely require specific church starts. They will eventually face their own “worship wars.”
But, a long transition better suits the 75 to 85% of churches that make up the current landscape of Southern Baptists.
I’m in year six of such a transition. I’d say it will be about two more years before I will know how well this has worked–or, how well I will do as a greeter at Walmart.
In addition, We’ve found at our church that a more “folk” bent to the music has appeal across generations. Old hymns with new accompaniments…new songs that sound “folky” or old or hymn-like…I’ve had 65 year olds and 17 year olds compliment the same song!
I think you are absolutely correct. My experience seems to indicate the same thing.
Jack, I would not accept that the “older folks” pay more of the contributions without hard data. You may find that the younger people do a larger fraction of the giving than you think.
I was part of the team that counted money at our church (you see who contributes but you don’t remember it) and I certainly would not accept this widely accepted belief without data collected over a year.
Bennett, I collect the data anonymously every week. I can assure you that data supports my views.
I have five accountants that have developed a method by which I can analyze giving patterns in regard to household income and age without knowing who the givers are.
I am so glad to hear that Dave Miller loves Traditionalists—even if he is referring to those who are Musical/Cultural Traditionalists rather than Soteriological Traditionalists like myself.
I do find one parallel quite helpful, however. Sometimes those of us who are Soteriological Traditionalists are told that we cannot claim a time period in the middle of the Twentieth Century as “Traditional” but must go back to 1845 when the SBC was formed. Of course, our theology goes back much further than that, but the argument seems to be, “You cannot call yourself Traditional unless you mean 1845, and then you must also admit that Calvinists were very influential then as well, and thus should be called the true Traditionalists.”
The dear Traditionalists in Dave’s church point back to the traditions of the 1950’s to the 1980’s or so. My point is that the word “Traditional” can reference a variety of time periods and is determined by context. If the musical Trads can refer to the mid-twentieth century, then so can the soteriological Trads.
And I am glad to know that David loves both because Jesus certainly does as well.
Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see that changing the style of singing in worship, the dress code, the sermons, the pulpits, and the marketing committee to fit the needs of the modern culture/world have actually helped anything – regardless of the curmudgeonly opinions of the Traditionalists.
In fact, I’m not sure anything was better in the 60s than it is now, church-wise, it just had the appearance of being so, because a larger segamnt of society was inside the doors on Sunday, and the the SS roster was larger. In essence, trying to be culturally acceptable has never produced fruit anyway – the gospel has been preached yes, but it’s been in spite of our efforts to be culturally relevant – in ANY age or era.
My adult children were raised in the SBC and are now not part of it.
It isn’t because church isn’t contemporary enough. It IS because they see contemporary music and the worship format as contrived, and a stage show. I’ve been told they’ll be back when four things happen: 1. The priesthood of THE believer is restored. 2. Congregational governance returns. 3. The TULIP withers and dies. 4. Worship returns to traditional.
I’m sure every one of us could find those under 40 folks that would disagree with every one of those points.
But I don’t think it fair to assume those liking hymns are the 80 year olds, and those liking CCM are young. Same with any one of the issues. There are indeed some deep divides among us.
I must admit this loyal SBC lady now worships at a hymnsinging generally Arminian church across town. With the young’uns.
Do you mean that your children are in church, just not an SBC church? Or do you mean that they have left the church completely?
As I read through these responses and opinions and stories, one thought keeps occurring to me. We have done a bad job of teaching our churches the value of change.
The Gospel message never changes. The method of presentation does. We see that from the entirety of the Bible that God is CONSTANTLY revealing Himself in new ways to people, because people are constantly changing. We are always hurtling forward to the next shift.
This is a crucial realization that has to come to the church in America. All of them. We cannot be content with yesterday and today. We need to be looking to tomorrow. How will we continue to communicate the Gospel, disciple the saved, and expand the reach of the Kingdom.
Now I am not a smart man (in best Forrest Gump voice) but I do know this. The one reason the church I planted 11 years ago this month survived is because we were forced to be readily accepting of change. We were never allowed to get comfortable. EVER. So our people, at this point, are incredibly resilient to change. When we say, “We are trying something different” we may get questions, but no one is openly hostile. When a change doesn’t work (we had a minor disaster last year with trying to go to two mirrored services) people are remarkably forgiving, because they know we are trying to change to grow and reach more people.
Our worship pastor has remarkable freedom as well. We can go from hymns (not with a choir or a hand swinger, but hymns) to bluegrass, to old 90s choruses, to the newest of the new, to original music, to rock and back again- in some cases in the same service. And we do this, as it fits the sermon and the theological direction we are seeking to lead the church. We are not a young church- decent range of ages- but we are no longer just a young plant of 20 somethings either.
All of this to say, I see the importance of change written all over the Bible, all over the Gospel, and all over church history. We need to teach our people the value to change. We need to train people- as a part of discipleship- to lay down their preferences for the sake of the Kingdom. When this happens, we will begin to see these discussions die down. And yes, some people will leave, but they would never have been with us anyway. People who won’t change for the sake of the Kingdom are building the wrong “kingdom.”
My dearest mentor passed away earlier this year. Her name was Mavis Koonce. She was in her 90s. She was my biggest prayer warrior and my staunchest ally. I was at a lunch with her one day when a debate broke out amongst a bunch of the old timers about all this “new worship” and “new ways” that were “afflicting” their church. Mavis listened and her eyes began to tear up. She finally leaned over into the conversation and asked, “Are people being saved?” When the people having the conversation said yes, that they were baptizing people regularly, she raised her voice and said, “Then who cares if you like the changes. I don’t care if I am enjoying the music or the program. I just want people to be saved. That’s enough for me!” That ended the discussion.
I am praying for more people like my dear and departed friend Mavis. She got the Kingdom. We need to be more like her.
Great story about Mavis. God bless all like her. Thanks for sharing that story.
Let me tell you another one. Bobby Moore was a great Pastor in the Memphis area. Bobby Moore loved Jesus, and he was a faithful preacher of the Word. And, Bobby Moore led many, many people to Jesus. Well, one day, an old man in the Church came stomping down the aisle during the invitation. He was red faced mad, and he started letting Bobby Moore have it. He said that he was tired of always asking people to get saved. He was tired of Bobby Moore always trying to win people to Jesus. And then, a dear, old, sweet lady gently walked up to the man…. put her hand on his shoulder…and, with tears in her eyes, she said, “Oh, Mister, we can’t stop now. My husband aint saved, yet. We can’t stop now.”
Hallelujah for little, old ladies, who love Jesus, and who want to see people get saved!!!
David