(William Thornton is the “SBC Plodder” and shares his perspective on SBC and cultural issues. This post seemed like one that SBC Voices readers might like to discuss. Discuss amongst yourselves!)
Would someone with above plodder intelligence please make a cogent case for or against Sunday sales of alcohol here in Georgia?
At the moment the legislature in our fair state is in session, always a dangerous time for freedom-loving, sensible and hardworking taxpayers, and will probably pass a bill making Sunday sales of alcohol a local option, allowing a county or municipality to put the question up for a ballot.
Did I mention that you can buy alcohol on Sundays in Georgia, just not in stores?
That’s right. You can go to a restaurant and tank up all you want, a bottle or glass at a time. You just can’t go to Publix and take a six pack to the counter and pay for it. If you do the checker will likely ask, “You’re not from around here, are you?
Baptists are officially against the bill which would allow communities to decide for themselves. We are, however, proudly locking arms with the liquor store trade association in opposition to the bill. The liquor lobby is against the bill because their retail outlets don’t want to open their stores on Sundays because of the extra work and expense.
Ah, the Georgia Baptist Convention and the Georgia Alcohol Dealers Association, locking arms on this one. Isn’t that cute. A marriage made in, well, made of political convenience.
Grocery and convenience stores, already open on Sundays, are lobbying heavily in favor of it. One store spokesman said that 25% of their customers shop on Sundays and 10% shop only on Sundays. One wonders what to say to the latter group, “It offends my religious views for you to be able to buy beer on the only day you go grocery shopping. Deal with it.”
And did I mention that Georgia is one of only three states who ban Sunday retail sales? Connecticut and Indiana prohibit them. The other forty-seven states have no such laws.
The Georgia Baptist Convention has a paid lobbyist who calls this “encroachment on the Lord’s Day” an understandable sentiment and probably the only argument he has, although the term “encroachment” may be about three generations behind the curve on Lord’s Day activities. Sunday as a different day has been non-existent in this state for decades. There is very little a Georgian cannot do on Sunday, save buy a bottle of wine at a convenience store.
We’ve always just been against any and all alcohol sales and consumption. I’m just asking is at what point we decide it is inappropriate to use the power of the state to restrict others in the name of our religious sensitivities? Does our Georgia Baptist lobbyist have reasons aside from “encroach[ment]” on the Lord’s Day?
When I asked a friend this question, he replied that why should we worry about using political power when the liberals and leftists don’t hesitate to use it? Hardly a convincing argument. Anecdotal evidence has been offered that drunk drivers kill people on Sunday afternoons, although drunk driving is illegal on any day of the week.
And can anyone make a decent argument that local communities, in a state where the majority of citizens favor such freedoms, should not even have the opportunity to put the question to their own citizens? I’d like to hear what should be told to the social drinking grocery shopper who, because of their schedule, only shops on Sundays.
I’m just asking questions. Someone make the case.
The truth here is that the Christian organizations are offering only desultory opposition. The governor, a teetotaling Baptist, has said he would sign it. I give our folks credit for recognizing reality.
Baptists and alcohol. Always a fun mix. (Pun intended).
As a resident of Indiana, I feel for the Georgians. Fortunately, I live one the state line and Ohio is very enlightened on the subject. 🙂
As a resident of Indiana, I feel for the Georgians. Fortunately, I live on the state line and Ohio is very enlightened on the subject. 🙂
Darby, you can say that again….oh, never mind.
Ah yes, a fellow Georgian and Baptist asking for sensible reasoning. I can’t believe we pay a lobbyist to deal with this. I would very much like to know which items/activities fall under the banner of “encroachment on the Lord’s Day.” Is there a list? 🙂
Mark, Deuteronomy chapter 35 clearly lays out what is considered “encroachment on the Lord’s Day.” 🙂
Actually, that’s a list for encroachment on the Sabbath. So maybe we should ban alcohol sales on Saturday?
I’m watching this one with interest.
Perhaps energy spent on fighting Sunday alcohol sales could be better spent on taking the gospel of Jesus Christ to Georgians.
Fighting alcohol makes Baptists look silly in the minds of unbelievers, many of whom are aware that the Bible doesn’t forbid alcohol consumption but rather drunkenness. Many of them also understand the difference between a drink or two and drunkenness.
It’s a liberty issue. Baptists should quit trying to hold people, believers and unbelievers alike, to a standard foreign to Scripture.
That’s my take and I think I, too, have the spirit of Christ.
I grew up in a non-denominational fundamentalist church. Part of our attempt to be as faithful to Jesus’ literal commands as we could was using real wine for celebrating the Lord’s Supper. One of my vivid memories connected with this was when it was noticed just before service that we didn’t have enough wine and those in charge having to go around looking for a second volunteer to make the grocery run when it was considered that the first volunteer was not yet 21 (legal age in the state for alcohol purchase.) In the name of religious freedom for Christian alcohol purchases should be allowed on Sundays.
Who cares?
The old ‘blue laws’ in a city where we once lived actually forbade a bear to be led down Main Street on a chain on Sunday. No kidding. I never found out the history of that particular law, but it was so unique that it was allowed to remain on the books and so, was still illegal when I was a child, much to my amusement and joy.
Now, Sunday is not the biblical Sabbath. But someone must have felt that God would be dis-pleased if a bear was chained and brought down Main Street on a Sunday.
I kind of like that law myself. Course, then again, I’m rather fond of bears. What does that have to do with this post?
I’m not sure. Must be the thought of someone ‘chained’ to a substance in a way that hurts them and makes those around them sad and unhappy.
A lot of people are in that category. Might be a better use of time to attempt to help them in more practical ways than closing down their liquor store on a Sunday. Somehow, I think there are betters songs to sing out there, for the sake of those who suffer, than the silly ones that make us feel self-righteous and smug.
Stan, I’ll drink to that (though not on Sunday and not alcohol, of course).
Good article, William. You clearly have “above plodder intelligence” to use a word like “desultory”. I’m thankful for my handy Merriam-Webster search tool in Firefox. Nearly 40 years on this blue marble and I’ve never come across that word. Remind me never to play you in Scrabble.
From the great state of Oklahoma by a liquor store owner (me):
No, I repeat NO convienence or grocery store can sell liquor, wine or “strong” beer on any day of the week. The definition of “strong” beer in Oklahoma is any malt based beverage above 3.2% ABV. Beer in Oklahoma is almost universally below 3.2% by weight, usually it is around 2.5% ABW. The privilige of selling wine, strong beer or liquor is reserved for liquor stores only and we cannot be open on Sundays. Walmart, Sam’s, Target and other big box retailers would like to change that. Our Oklahoma liquor retailers association is against being open on Sundays. That is the only day of the week we get to close and we like to be with our families on that day.
When I was growing up, my family never went out to eat on Sundays, because we didn’t want the food servers/cooks to work on the Sabbath. I’m not sure how that makes any sense. Anyway my point is, maybe Georgia should close restaurants and buffets on Sunday, too, reducing gluttony and work on the Sabbath. Two birds with one stone.
Heretic!
Closing buffets? You want to get banned from this site? I will permit a lot of stuff, but recommending the closing of buffets is NOT acceptable!
Besides, gluttony is a fully-approved Baptist sin. We can be as gluttonous as we want as long as our drinks contain no alcohol!
You don’t want the restaurant workers to work (and get paid in order to provide for their families), but it was ok for your mom to work (for free)?
You’re kind of a troublemaker, aren’t you, Matt? You will fit in VERY well around here!
That’s our favorite kind of commenter. We like people who stir the pot!
Lol, good cause I like pot-stirrin!
Well, I wrote that last week and this week it seems that even the desultory opposition to this bill by Christian groups has our legislators nervous. The bill has been shelved and may not pass.
Meanwhile the bill is shelved and ages like a fine whine.
Oh, my. Pun of the week.
I often advise people to choose their battles. This isn’t one worth fighting. Placing bets on either horse in this race puts the emphasis on not drinking and completely obscures the admonition to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Per doctor’s orders I sometimes partake of two fingers in the bottom of a water glass of spirits so that my eventual demise, already anticipated from other causes, might allow me to pass with a smile on my face. But it’s not a necessity for me as it definitely is for others and who probably need a ” dry out day”. This approach I like better than a “feel goofy pill” which I could get if I wanted that. I measured the trips that some walked in the Bible and it seems wine would fit all requirements. I didn’t decide that; I read it and they did it. What did they do on Sunday ?
See if you think this obscures the Holy Spirit. I can be melancholy and every firearm I have reminds me of someone who shot it at a special time who’s now gone, or perhaps a special hunt with again special people in special places. One recently acquired firearm is the largest revolver in production, made in the USA by Smith & Wesson. On one side it has a Pastor (name ) largely engraved. On the other is engraved Luke 22:36 in large script. The intent was for gold inlay but the firearm in a holster would snag the letters and pull the gold out and Smith wouldn’t warranty the work and I didn’t want to keep paying to do the job over; so the whole thing is very brightly polished stainless steel with other embellishments all of which provides me with an abundance of good thoughts of which I think the Holy Spirit would approve. Different strokes for different folks. I don’t know how to say the Rosary.
I’ve sincerely enjoyed reading everyone’s comments. Pro and Against! Now me I’m the daughter of as serious an alcoholic as anyone could imagine. Poor Daddy even had the alcoholic psychosis. He once sprayed our house with purple and orange spray paint. Then he cut the fringe off of the Chinese modern furniture. He was having quite a hard time. He tried to run over me and my mom with the family Chevy, dropped my little brother off of the high dive in Miami, set the house on fire twice and spent a fair amount of time in jail. Every cop in Long Beach, California knew my dad.
He decided one day it was time for a daddy and daughter day. So he took me to the world famous Los Angeles Space Museum and on the way home, he had some difficulty discerning red lights from green lights. I said over and over “Daddy, it’s a red light”!! “Daddy, it’s a green light”!! Soon enough the LAPD decided they would have to take him to jail where he could benefit from an eye exam. I was taken to juvenile detention, because my dad being an alcoholic had no ID. It only took them two days to figure out who I was and the host of things done to me during those two days is not fit a public website. He was a sick, sick man and I adored him.
Enter the authorities. My little brothers and I found our way into foster care. God reached down His hand and placed us in Christian homes. I learned about Jesus, Sunday go-to-meetin’ clothes, the Bible, Sunday dinner and stores that were not open. No stores, those that sold liquor (or other spirits) or otherwise. It’s was the Lord’s day and that was all there was to it. I miss those days very much. God First. Then came Wednesday night prayer meeting. Hmmm, the stores were open. What’s up with that? Now I was only about 6 years old so my powers of observation were keen, but my reasoning wasn’t.
For me this all boils down to one thing. Will a law, an ordinance, a slam on the pulpit from a fiery preacher make one of the tortured souls who are ruled by alcohol any better? I think not. My dad would be happy to move on to Old Spice. For me, I’d go back to those days in the fifties when we really honored the Lord in more concrete ways, and just about everyone else did too. No one got their knickers in a knot about having to honor God with 1/7th of our week. We had family days, and fun in the backyard, and a good old fashioned board game. We long for family and friends and a place where the joy of the Lord was present every day of the week, and most of us did not even think about drinking alcohol, let alone cocaine, marijuana, meth, crack, etc. It’s not the substance good Christian brothers and sisters. It’s the sickness underneath it. Closing down ETOH sales on Sunday’s is merely a nod to something lost decades ago. All we can do is to raise our families in the counsel of the Lord. You can’t stop anyone who wants alcohol from getting it. My husband tells me that when he grew up in Massachusetts the blue laws were in strict observance. They were quite willing to drive into New Hampshire to get whatever they needed. Silly. Now we have these folks on the interstates driving half hammered. All the blue laws in the world haven’t stopped the decline of what was once the cradle of liberty. Nope, instead Massachusetts gives us Barney Frank. I dunno friends. But I think this is a wasted effort. Could we not use this time to reach more people for Jesus?
I do respect everyone’s opinion. I’m not exactly objective about. I may have one glass (and I don’t drink all of that) of wine at a special dinner once or twice a year, but that’s it. I’ve seen the result of addiction and I’m taking no chances. If other want to drink and can do so responsibly, I can’t find anything in scripture to forbid it.
There is an end to the story for my Dad. He died in October 1974. He was found dead on a park bench in a city park. He had no money, just some food stamps in his pocket. I don’t know where my dad is, he wasn’t much on religion or even God. But you never know where a person’s heart is.
Blessings to all…………
Chief Katie, I read your story and there is so much so many think they understand and don’t have a clue. The worst “dry out spot” as you mentioned is a park bench, alley or gutter or jail. The better places are hospitals, regular clinics and places that resemble country clubs where people are signed in and can’t just walk out. I’ve visited some good , close, personable, very successful people that had this disease and couldn’t get rid of it. They had every reason to want to live longer but couldn’t whip this demon. Some can tho which is important to note. Not anybody can go visit. When you’re there you may meet the “who’s who” of your city and environs who mostly have some of the same traits which include; helping others because of the help they have gotten, they belong to maybe the Shrine who build hospitals that have no billing department or the Knights of Columbus. They belong not to get into heaven with good works but to pay back in some form. They are the first to contribute to Father Flannigans’ Boys Town, SPLC and other groups that do watch out for all people knowing their disease crosses all boundries. They would support churches in my opinion if they didn’t feel beat up by sometimes immature “know it alls” before they get close to the front door. This is a job for mature pastors who have seen life. We need to listen sometimes to what others are saying so they will maybe listen to you. Guess who else you’ll run into there. Not many but some gays. You want to be in stitches you need to listen to this special group all talk to each other. We can do better. Plenty more but this might upset Dave as it is.
Not sure if Dave would disagree, but I generally try to follow his lead. He’s never failed to behave civilly graciously.
Yep, addiction is something we really don’t understand. I’m not even convinced that people use substances because of some effort to hide emotional pain. I honestly believe some ‘use’ because they enjoy the high they experience. There are as many reasons as the day is long. We still only have pieces of the puzzle and I certainly wish we could assemble it so that more people could be helped.
You have to truly love an alcoholic to understand that in many respects it is beyond their control. That’s especially true once they have a real physical dependence when they use just to feel normal.
My Dad was able to be clean for as much as 8 years, but inevitably he caved into whatever it is that drives the craving. I don’t even know how many times he had inpatient treatment.
I have seven siblings. ALL of my brothers suffer from alcoholism. I don’t even know where one of them is. No one has heard from him in 5 years. My sisters have pretty much skipped the alcohol and drugs but have serious problems with obesity. I feel certain that there is a genetic component.
I agree completely that recovering addicts have huge hearts and do all they can to help others. They never seem to forget where they came from. I often hear them say that helping other addicts helps them to stay sober. I believe them. And yes, Jack, they often are not made to feel welcome in our churches. It’s much like turning up the nose toward divorced person, but welcoming a serial killer. It makes no sense, but I’ve seen things much like it.
I don’t have any wisdom Jack. I only know what my experience tells me.
God Bless
Chief Katie, You have the wisdom from your experiences and for what it’s worth your on target. I graduated from High school barely and the 3 table is all I’ve really needed. Experience and being able to relate to others opens doors. Take Care.
In some ways, Katie, you describe one side of my family. I think that is why my dad has always been such an avid teetotaler, because he saw what alcoholism did to some of the members of his family.
I’m sure that there are people who can handle alcohol. But I’ve heard that there is a genetic component to alcoholism. And for someone with that much alcoholism in the genes, abstinence seems like the best choice.
And the obesity thing, well…let’s not talk about that.
I know how I’ve struggled for self-control over food. I can only imagine how hard it would be to break the control of alcohol. I’m guessing it would be even worse.
Dave, I too struggle with my weight. I think that’s a double whammy. There is not a single doubt in my mind, that genetics play some role in addiction. I also think that science has shown us that obese people, often have obese children probably due to some combination of genetics and environment. The sins that have been committed at Baptist Potlucks make me cringe having partaken of much too much. My Navy years, put that in check. You either measured less, or you measured out. I’m not joking either. I’ve been able to keep myself at a reasonable weight, but I’m always mentally counting calories. Ever see a completely thin person who behaves like an eating machine, and never gains an ounce? That’s genetics!
The reason I say that obesity is a double whammy is that, we have to fight genetics AND we still have to eat. Alcoholics and drug abusers have to completely abstain. You and I get to wrestle with the demon many times a day. I’m only partially successful and I’ll admit there are times when I feel downright resentful about it. But I’d never trade my struggle with what has destroyed a good deal of my family. I keep cycling “My grace is sufficient for you” over and over. I often think this is why we are never told what Paul’s “thorn in the flesh” is. It can apply to any of us in different ways. It makes us completely reliant on God’s mercy.
You are a blessing Dave.
A trial is in process in a nearby city for a doctor who was driving while intoxicated and hit a carr driven by a young, promising ballerina. She was killed instantly. Now the car is on diplay outside the courthouse. Surely a reminder of how drinking and driving do not mix. While it is clear that wine was the element in communion and continued so in the church down to the time the temperance movement became abstinence, that does not mean it is okay to mix drinking with everything socially. One never knows how far down the road someone will be when drinking becomes for that person a sordid addiction that destroys lives.
Dr. J, you are absolutely correct. One never knows if alcohol will become a deadly demon from whom one cannot extricate one’s self.
Six years ago I buried my little brother. The sweetest person anyone would ever meet. He died waiting for a liver transplant. Years of drinking combined with Hepatitis C from a blood transfusion, killed him in the most brutal way imaginable.
It took almost 30 years for alcohol to kill him. Long before that it killed all the meaning and purpose in his life. He lost a promising career in the Army, a wife and daughter, and everything of real value–and then, his life.
People often think he died from years of alcohol abuse, but I quickly correct them. He died from one drink–the first one. Had he not taken the first drink he would never have become addicted to alcohol. Once in his body, it took him over.
There is a happy ending . . . I led him to the Lord about 8 or 9 years before he died. He came back to the Lord and was sober for almost a year before his battered liver gave up. He’s with Jesus now and he is my best illustration of why, “one drink is too many.”
We all know people who have experienced some kind of tragedy where alcohol was involved. And we all know people who have experienced tragedy where no alcohol was involved. Now we’re back to even.
Darby, your comment is perhaps the “lowest” post I think I’ve read. You don’t have a clue.
It’s pretty hard to get “back even” when you have looked into the face of your little brother lying in a casket as the direct result of alcohol.
Hope your “little-minded comment” makes you feel big.
I understand why you’re emotional about this. I hope someday you can see that it is tainting your view about this subject, and making you somewhat insulting in the process.
Darby, you’re approach is not only insensitive, it is uninformed and idiotic. I’ll have to ask God to forgive me for the bad thoughts I have about what kind of person you might be.
Let’s see, “You tread on the grave of dead loved one’s” referring their death to getting even in a game, and I’m the one that is insulting.
First of all, I’d venture to say that I’ve done a fair amount of graduate study on the ethical issue of social drinking, as well as, working with recovering alcoholic and their families. So, your perjorative statements about my “tainted” view is taken for what it’s worth — not much.
But, you are right about being emotional about the evil’s of recreational drinking and drug use. I assume your enlightened, objective approach sees no problem with it. You are certainly welcome to your “uninformed” opinion.
Frank, perhaps you misunderstood my original comment.
Frank, you don’t have to agree with Darby, but your comments him are way out of line, as far as I’m concerned.
We can have a discussion without that kind of accusation.
I think you owe Darby an apology.
Dave, defend Darby if you like and feel free to ban me from the site. But when someone compares the death of a loved one to “points in a game,” that’s over the line for me.
When someone suggests that a person cannot be emotional about a topic that took the life of a loved one, and still understand that topic, I think that’s out of line.
So feel free to ban me. I can live without blogging at this site, especially when it sinks to the depths of Darby’s insensitive statements.
I can assure my post was mild and toned down compared to what was in my heart.
So, feel free to send me an email asking me not to blog here and I will respectfully comply. But, know that I will speak up when someone suggests that blogging about the death of a loved one is “some kind of game” in which the score goes back and forth.
Frank, you are coming from a place of very personal injury and understandable emotion.
But you also have to understand, we are discussing an issue on which there are different viewpoints.
Darby is an honorable Christian man and I think your reaction to him, while understandable emotionally is simply not warranted by what he said.
Disagree. Discuss. But personal character attacks go beyond what is acceptable.
I’m not defending Darby’s point.
I am defending Darby – the man, whom I have seen on blogs for some time.
You are saying very harsh things about a man of God.
My concern is with how you two carry on the conversation.
You should feel free to disagree with what he said and to show him why he is wrong. But you are not free to post even one more personal insult about Darby in this comment stream.
I am truly sorry for the loss you have experienced. I cannot imagine the pain you feel, having never experienced that.
Frank, like you, I have a reason for posting my comments, a sensitive and gospel-centered one. It is no more my desire to personally offend you by my comments than it is for you to personally offend those who may take offense for not sharing your views about the alcohol boogieman.
Don’t assume you have the corner market on suffering from addiction to alcohol. I come from a family of addicts, and have watched the effects on family, job, life and death. In addition, pretty much anything that one could be addicted to, I have been at one point or another in my life. God and my family are witnesses to that confession. I am a hedonist to the core, and I have been wronged by addicts and wronged others as one.
Fortunately, I have come to be known by the Fountain of Living Waters who has once for all delivered me from my past status as alcoholic. He has given me happiness and pleasure not possible by any substance in this fallen age. And he has enabled me to befriend those who are still where I once was. I have no more fear or hatred of alcohol. In fact, I can drink one a glass of wine or a bottle of beer or a glass of champagne at a wedding, thank God for it, and leave it there.
The reason I commented about being back to even was not to make light of anyone’s grief. It was simply to point out that personal experience is not the defining essence of truth. Scripture is. And if we’re willing to use personal logic derived from personal crisis as the basis for our beliefs rather than Scripture, we are not dealing with reality and will ultimately not be helpful to those who will be judged in reality.
It is no more appropriate to say that alcohol is evil because over-consumption has harmful effects as it is to say food is evil. Please see my post here for my biblical reasoning for my comments on this topic: http://profoundmystery.blogspot.com/2010_02_01_archive.html
Well, nothing you attribute to me in your post did I ever say. In fact, I did not even mention what my view on Scripture is. You are also quite mistaken by making “food” which is necessary to life ethically equal to “strong drink” which is not. I know you believe they are equal and you have the right to that opinion, but it is not supported by Scripture.
Now, when you make the argument about gluttony, that is a completely different subject because drunkeness and gluttony are dealt with in equal fashion, but not wine and food.
So, I never made the arguments you purport I made. My problem was not in your argument in regard of whether the Bible teaches–as you believe and have stated–that food and wine are treated equally in the Bible. That’s a theological argument that I never addressed.
I also never said anything about my views being the final arbiter of the matter. I never stated nor implied that abstinence is taught explicitly in the Bible. I gave an anecdotal story of how a person could be 100% sure that the optional use of alcohol could not become a deadly demon that destroys lives. I believe my point of view is Biblically based and I know it is 100% effective.
You chose to make it a “game” where points are won or lost.
So, I believe I understood your post exactly as you stated it. You did not deal with my reasoning, and you do not even know my stand on the use of alcohol as a table beverage. You simply made light of an anecdotal story that happens to be very personal to me. Then, you attribute statements and beliefs to me that I did not express to cover your post that did not address any point I did express.
So, if you feel good about your post, you are the only one that has to answer for it. If you are fishing for an apology from me, you are wasting your time. I will reiterate: I think your post was insensitive and your later posts attribute to me things I neither stated and beliefs I do not hold.
The fact that David admonished me and supports you makes no difference to me at all. The fact that you have a different view on the social use of alcohol from me, is not why I responded as I did. It was the “score keeping” aspect of your post I find offensive when it follows a post about a great young man who died far too young.
Because I don’t want to continue this exchange and end up saying something as a believer I should not say (as you have already discovered I am very emotional and passionate about this issue), I am not going to respond any further to you.
You can have the last word.
I do however, apologize for reacting too strongly and emotionally when all you are is a name on a blog. I should not have let your insensitive remark draw a reaction from me For that I apologize to those on this blog.
Don’t know why my above post was placed as a reply to Frank’s. I didn’t mean it to be an exclusive reply to Frank, though.
Sometimes, the WordPress gremlins have playtime.
Dave is that why there is a G lying on its back at every comment? 🙂
That’s a Gravatar, James. If you don’t have a gravatar, the symbol shows.
Jack, the topic is alcohol sales in GA. Let’s try to keep focused, okay?
KATIE,
I feel sad reading the story about your father. I’m glad you don’t judge him as to ‘where he is now’. Trust Our Lord, the Great Physician, who knows the hearts of all men, and came for those who needed Him.
It is written in prophecy, this:
““He Himself took up our infirmities, and carried our diseases.”
(Isaiah 53:4-6).
I think we all understand the deep gravity of human sin and suffering and its terrible consequences.
But in our own human weakness, we are not able to fully comprehend the depths of Our Compassionate Lord’s divine mercy for suffering people. We cannot know. But we can trust Him.
In Him, we find rest from our worries and our fears.
Christanne,
I apologize, I didn’t see your comment until just now. I thank you for your kind words. I know you mean them out of compassion. I’m a realist though. My dad didn’t have any relationship with God other than a basic belief in His existence that I’m aware of. But of course, I wasn’t always there when he was in those dark, lonely, places. I honestly try not to think about it. I don’t pray for him any longer. I just wish him some peace. There may well have been a time when he believed and perhaps before he died, he repented, like the thief of the cross. Wherever my dad is, God is just and I trust in Him.
Blessings…
I was just being funny David. It seemed like a good opportunity for a little humor even though I was relatively sure the G did not have to do with gremlins. 🙂
O.K. Back On Target, Okay ! The question was asked, “I’d like to hear What should be told to the social drinking grocery shopper who, because of their schedule, only shops on Sundays ?”. I’ll add to that , “In GA” to be more correct in Brother Dave’s eyes. Well, O.K. After careful thought my answer is that it would not be proper to socially drink when you shop – especially if you we’re a women. If you were shopping for someone else and they had vermouth on their list it would be extremely more difficult to locate this product after having imbibed – not to mention if you were a short women and this product was located on the top drawer er shelf. Whether in GA or not the longer you shop the better looking all the products become ; but, don’t get any eaier to get. Have you heard the one about which one would you rather have , the Flu or a Townhouse in Talledeigo, GA. ( Georgia ). The answer is the Flu because you can get rid of it. O.K. Dave, I’m going to study up for the next question. Ta – Ta.
Ms. Darby Livingston, You sure do take a punch well !!
I was named before the more estrogen-strong gender overtook it. 🙂
That’s funny, Darby!
Sorry Darby, My brain got locked up on your were a female. Had I known different I wouldn’t have offered an encouraging word.
So I can take your encouragement as flirtation? 🙂
Oh, wow. Now its just getting creepy around here!
Darby, Rather than say as I did “encouragement” I should better have said “defense” as I thought a female was getting beat up and I didn’t know how badly. I’m not playing Superman with a cape at closing time.
Aww, shucks.
My feeling is that the Southern Baptists would do well to apply their efforts “in-house” to the afflicted yet very able that use alcohol for whatever reason and concentrate on saving souls with understanding rather than alienation. We all are aware of what “perfect ” is and know we fall short , but many of these are still gifted in ways that greatly benefit others every day. We can do better.
I’ve no problem staying on topic. But I must admit, I don’t understand the issue all that well, as I don’t reside in the Georgia, let alone the south. My dad was raised in Georgia and Florida, and I’m quite sure the blue laws were in effect during his upbringing. It didn’t stop his downward spiral into hell on earth!
While in the Navy, I had an opportunity to work in one of the Alcohol/Drug Rehab Centers at Miramar, CA. I have a good working knowledge of the disease as a clinical model, but am not convinced anyone really understands addiction completely.
In any case, why the issue of selling ETOH on Sundays? That horse left the barn decades ago in most of the country. I’m not saying I approve of that decision, but in the big picture, those who MUST have alcohol will get it, whether it is convenient or not. I live in AZ and we actually have a law that forbids ETOH sales until 10:00 am on Sunday’s? Huh? That makes no sense at all. It’s of no consequence to me, because I don’t drink and neither does my husband. But, what happens at 10:00 that suddenly makes it okay to buy? Is it just a nod to Christians?
Another thing I don’t understand is the idea that some retailers don’t want to open their stores on Sunday in Georgia. How would this law impact them? Does the Georgia state government control when a shopkeeper open’s his/her stores? I find it hard to believe that government can regulate a person’s business in terms of their hours of operation. It’s not the same as a drug store that people need to obtain prescription medicines.
Can someone give me Georgia law 101? I seem to be missing the crux of the problem. One of the things most addicted people often say is that where you are geographically, makes no difference at all. Wherever they go “They takes themselves with them”. Or, making a geographical move to fix addiction is the same as changing your substance. It’s just changing seats on the titanic.”
Thanks to all and God Bless.
Chief Katie, just want to say, “Go Navy.” Frank L., STS2 (SS), USS Ethan Allen, SSB(N) 608 Gold.
Frank,
Go Navy Indeed. My goodness a boomer sailor. Six in, six out. You have my admiration. Your work was exceedingly difficult and it takes a special breed of person to live the way boomer sailors do on a regular basis. I’m a gulf war veteran and nothing I did ever approached your sacrifice.
HMC/USN/Ret
MTS
In His Grace
Actually, Chief, I was young and never realized what a difficult task it was to live three months in a can without seeing the sunlight.
I guess when I think back on it–it was a bit of an unusual lifestyle. It has been 30 years since I sailed the seven seas (or at least under the seven seas) and I still remember it with great fondness. As you can imagine, spending 3 months with someone in a very confined space forged very deep (no pun intended) friendships (actually, that’s a pretty good pun).
Why would anyone want to prohibit Sunday sale of alcohol?
Many would agree that any way alcohol is limited or prohibited has an overall positive effect. The less alcohol, the better. The more inaccessible alcohol is made, society is better off. So, selling alcohol six days a week is at least better than selling it seven days a week.
Does limited availability really make a difference? Yes. Not always, but it does. When liquor is easily available, it makes it easier for a man in a weak moment to succumb to the temptation. If he has to wait till tomorrow, or drive to the next county, he may not go to the trouble.
The seawall in Galveston, TX was getting out of hand with too many threatening, rowdy people. Families and children were rarely seen on the seawall. They then passed an ordinance against alcohol on the seawall. Almost overnight the atmosphere of the seawall was changed for the better.
Even alcoholics have acknowledged the difference it makes when alcohol is difficult to get. In the days leading up to Prohibition, a town drunk proclaimed he would vote for Prohibition. Someone laughed, “But if there was a bottle of whiskey on top of the flagpole, you’d risk your life and climb the flagpole to get it.” “Yes,” the alcoholic replied, “but if it wasn’t there, I wouldn’t climb the flagpole.”
To those whose hearts go out to the poor soul who has to buy his beer on Sunday; I imagine he will not have too much difficulty coming by a six-pack some other way. Don’t worry, he’ll do just fine.
David R. Brumbelow
Sounds like its time to get educated about the disease of alcoholism.
Shallow efforts to curb something this serious are not only a waste of time, but serve as a judgment on those who seek ‘easy answers’ for serious problems.
There are many Churches now offering programs to really help people who are addicted to various substances. And these programs ARE helping. This involves an investment of time and humane concern for those who need Our Lord’s strength.
Great post, David.
David Brumbelow:
You said:”To those whose hearts go out to the poor soul who has to buy his beer on Sunday; I imagine he will not have too much difficulty coming by a six-pack some other way. Don’t worry, he’ll do just fine.”
Did you mean that as sarcastic as it comes across?
I brought up Education as a weapon earlier and got booted off , but you can’t deal with the problem alone when you may have a solution. So: Give me a few lines. In at least the State of Virginia the has been a program instituted in the K thru ? called the “Eddie Eagle” Program written and produced by the NRA. It teaches children if they see a firearm anywhere to STOP, DON’T TOUCH, TELL AN ADULT. It’s been around a real while and has proven to save children’s lives. Alcohol, drugs and tobacco needs to be presented to the young impressionable minds in such a way that it is fun to learn it and remember it. Gets away from that first drink, first cigarette. For your info the Eddie Eagle Program is well funded, never shows a gun, never anywhere is it written or says NRA and can be seen online. When you fight at this level, this early in life plan on a fight but they’ll get a fight they can’t handle. Churches don’t need anyone’s permission except the parents and after seeing would be easy to get – even in GA, ( that’s Georgia)
I’ve never been this far before.
Update: Republicans, overwhelmingly the majority in the state senate where this bill was in committee, had a secret caucus, didn’t have the votes, and killed the bill in committee. Few of them want to say they were on either side of the thing, since someone will be displeased about it. Profiles in courage abound here in the Peach State.
As a side note, two of the lobbyists against the bill speak of being strong proponents of freedom, etc, which leaves me somewhat flummoxed. The bill was to give greater freedom and they were strongly against it. Go figure.
It will come up again next year.
Meanwhile our solons get to consider more important stuff like raising taxes.
What BILL about What ?
Sorry William, I forgot the Blog was about this problem
So if we want to blame the Lobbyists who don’t vote, then who do they work for ? That’s a matter of record and answers a lot of questions. My guess would be the liquor distributors who will want to close the doors eventually only long enough to sweep out and re-stock. I still say Educate the children with a sound program made for children , only children , not feel good stuff for adults.
No secret about the sides here: liquor store lobbyists are against it because they don’t want to add a seventh day to the work week (not a bad argument for six day week with no retailing, but we’re way past that); convenience stores and grocery stores, already open seven days, want the bill passed.
We baptists are with the liquor store lobby on this one. 😉
Oh, the irony…
The ” Liquor STORE ” Lobby is against it but the “Liquor Distributors ” would be for it b.
“Darby is an honorable Christian man and I think your reaction to him, while understandable emotionally is simply not warranted by what he said”
David, I perfectly understand the implication from your above statement that “I am not an honorable Christian man.” You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
However, though emotional, I challenged Darby’s words. In his following posts, he expanded and defended his comments. He attributed to me things I did not say. He clearly used a metaphor comparing the issue of deaths caused as a direct result of alcohol as “a game in which he was keeping score.”
I find that offensive. And, I stick by it. The fact that he did not address the point of my post: “abstinence is a 100% guarantee against alcohol addiction,” and chose rather to make light of a tragedy (that I happen to share though many others share the same or worse) to me is indefensible — yet, you continue to defend him because you know him to be “an honorable Christian man.” That implies I am not.
Again, it is clear I do not share his argument that the Bible considers the use of wine and the use of food in the same vein. However, that was not the point of my post–which Darby did not even address: “abstinence is a 100% guarantee against alcoholism.” I will stand by my principle, and I will stand with all of those who have seen the ugly side of alcoholism.
Your opinion as to whether or not Darby is a “more honorable Christian” than I am, really does not change what I believe the Bible teaches in regard to this matter: which I by the way, have never stated. I can assure you I am not going to allow your opinion of whether or not I’m an “honorable Christian man” change my views. I’ll leave my character in the faithful hands of people who actually know me.
Pastors who believe that “social drinking” is both allowed–and encouraged–by the Scriptures will not stand before me in judgment whether they are “honorable” or otherwise.
I’ve already apologized that I allowed Darby’s words to strike a nerve, but my emotion or lack of emotion in regard to promoting the social use of alcohol does not vindicate Darby’s use of a “game metaphor” in regard to those who die from its use. That’s just my opinion. I respect that you differ.
PS–That’s my last word on the subject.
I did not say that. I did not mean that. I did not think that.
I did not say that. You are twisting my words.
I did not say that. Although, your seeming intentional twisting of my words is leaving an impression…
Frank,
You seem to be overly sensitive. You have a knack for reading an attack into just about any statement.
FranK L:
I really believe you are misinterpreting what Darby meant by “Now we’re back to even.”
Frank L.,
If I might add to that, it appears that the “back to even” comment wasn’t even supposed to be a reply to yours or related to your comment in any way as his next comment questioned how it ended up in that spot.