I received this post from a friend who requested anonymity. I appreciate his willingness to share this very personal struggle.
I hesitate to write these words and I write with anonymity because I am not so bold as others who share their struggles. At the recent Southern Baptist Convention, Dr. Albert Mohler responded to a question and gave an impassioned plea for the evangelical community at large to repent of half-truths it has told and homophobia it has displayed towards those in homosexual relationships and struggling with same-sex desires. In a limited sphere of the blogging world, at least, Dr. Mohler’s words created a firestorm of accusations, exaggerations, and supposed offense.
Yet can we not for a moment set the rhetoric aside and examine the bigger picture and the broader question here: how should our churches seek to minister to those struggling with same-sex desire?
I write with anonymity because I stand on the inside of this issue. I am foremost a follower of Jesus and serve in ministry as a pastor. I stand inside the church. I am also a man, who like most men, war against and combat lust towards women. Yet with this, I also war against and combat lust towards other men. I stand inside the struggle. If I never made a comment about that second part of my lust, I would be seen as normal. There would be no issue between me and my ministry so long as I dealt with the temptations in the proper way and did not cave to fulfilling such desires outside of marriage. But by interjecting the second the game changes. Even though I have never pursued a relationship based on those desires and have the accountability of certain beloved friends, I have heard enough words spoken by church people including members of my present church to know that I would be out of a job if such thing became public knowledge. Perhaps this is the homophobia Dr. Mohler spoke about?
My story defies most I have heard. Growing up, no one abused or molested me, nor did anyone attempt to. I have no “daddy issues.” My father is a good man who worked hard yet made sacrifices to spend time with his children. He has been by my mother’s side for over 40 years. They are well on their way to growing old together. I love my father and have had and do have a great relationship with him. I have been in church all my life and a follower of Jesus for most of it. I never did drugs and rarely drank. There are no deep-seeded psychological issues in my life.
As a boy, I chased the girls. In the second grade there were eight throughout the year that I secretly desired to marry. In the third grade one girl sat next to me who shared a name similar to mine. I liked her and our names made for cute word play on my Trapper Keeper. She didn’t share the same thought though. But, I was just a boy.
When I started my journey into manhood, like with all boys, hormones started pumping, wires became crossed, and new feelings emerged. As with most boys, I began to see girls in a different light. At the same time, similar feelings emerged towards other boys. To say there was confusion is an understatement, especially since at the time I didn’t even know what “gay” or “homosexual” meant.
As I grew so did my desires and so did the confusion. At times it seemed that girls were the object of my attraction and the guys thing was just a fluke. At other times it reversed. Deep down I knew being attracted to guys wasn’t right. When I came to learn the definition of terms, part of me feared I was gay while the other part denied it completely. I felt disgusted at myself and prayed over and over for God to take those homosexual feelings away. I didn’t want to feel that way and I certainly did not choose to feel that way, yet the feelings would not go away.
Along the way I started hearing more and more about homosexuality in culture and in the church. Ellen came out on her television show. My church joined a convention-wide boycott of Disney. “Faggot” became a popular pejorative term at school with its scathing bite launched at me several times by others who didn’t know a thing about me. Fellow church members and even well-intentioned family members talked about how being gay was nothing but a choice.
Confused. Angry. Bitter. Depressed. I was all of it. I didn’t know if I was gay, straight, or something in between. I just knew how I felt and I knew I hated myself for how I felt. I was bursting with need of someone to confide in, someone to talk to, but I saw no place to turn. On the bitterest days I wanted to end my life but I was too afraid. Hell scared me and I was half convinced that Jesus didn’t die for and wouldn’t save someone who felt like me.
And that’s all I had—feelings. I did dive headlong into pornography when I was in college. But other than computer images I never acted on those feelings, though several times I wanted to. But I can imagine how much more difficult and intense such loathing is for those who have.
Then something happened: I learned the richness of the Bible’s story concerning the depth of sin and the awesome nature of the Gospel. I came to understand my sin nature—the cause of the desires could be a litany of things, in my case I have no doubt it is something biochemical or genetic—but even then its root is the corruption of sin. My temptations and desires are my temptations and desires, they’re a part of my own story yet even if the minute details might be different than those of another person, we still share in the “temptations common to man.” And my identity is not bound in my desires and feelings but in Christ and his work on the cross. Technically, I suppose, a person could call my desires “bisexual,” but as a Christian set free by Jesus I choose to fight to walk in his way and live in obedience to his word.
Some people can stand and say their same-sex desires went away when they turned to follow Jesus. Thank God for that and their testimony. I am one who cannot say that and I don’t know if I ever will be. But the fuller reality of the Gospel gives me hope.
Yet, even with the fullness of hope, I still struggle. There are still moments where I may take my eyes off the cross and relapse into anger, bitterness, and depression. Often in those days I feel like I need someone to talk to and someone who will pray for me. God has blessed me with some good friends who know about this issue and struggle, yet the closest one is 8 hours away. Can I call or email? Certainly. But there are times where you need someone who can help bear your burdens as they look you in the eyes and put their hand on your shoulder.
This purpose is one of God’s designs for his church. Yet even with the realization of the Gospel, I still face the fear and doubt of so many others who struggle. The fear that if I tell my church I will be ostracized. Especially as a pastor, if I tell my church, I will be fired. After all, I have seen how some of the youth react to the “bisexual” girl who sometimes comes to youth group. I have watched how they ostracized that girl who ended up pregnant. I have heard how they rolled their eyes, shook their head, and sighed at the guy who talked about his struggle with alcohol.
Such reactions are sad. Such reactions are wrong. Such reactions are sin.
How we should minister to those struggling with same-sex desires is a part of the broader picture of how we should minister to those struggling with a variety of sins and temptations.
1. We show gentleness and grace (Galatians 6:1-2, Romans 15:1). In Ecclesiastes, Solomon wrote that two are better than one, for if one falls the other is there to pick him up. We all stumble and fall in our own way. We might think a particular sin or temptation is more grotesque than another, mainly because it is not what we experience. Yet every temptation a person faces has a root that is common to man. Every temptation we face, at its core was faced by Jesus, yet he was without sin. The temptation to same-sex desire is no more heinous than a temptation to heterosexual lust which is no more disturbing than a temptation to gossip. We can either force each other to struggle alone against such temptations and sins or we can be the body of Christ and lift each other up in the heat of the struggle and war. And we do so with gentleness and grace, knowing the struggle and agony we sometimes face in our own temptations.
2. We confess our sins to one another and pray for one another (James 5:16). Truth be told, I have rarely seen a church where a person has stood up and confessed their gossip or anger let alone those seemingly more shameful desires of sexuality. Most of us in our churches are not honest with each other and with ourselves. Our prayers are generic and usually focused on health issues. Maybe we are so concerned about physical health because the deeper issues of spiritual health scare us too much? Maybe when those who have the more “acceptable” temptations share their struggles it will begin to create an atmosphere of love and trust with those who fell more “shameful.” Then the walls can come down, the body can love and build itself up, and we will see the Spirit move in a much more meaningful way in the church.
3. We constantly speak and sing the Gospel to each other (Colossians 3:16) and that includes reminding each other about our identity in Christ and not in the world (3:1-4). Like I said of me: finding out who I truly am in Christ may not have made my struggles and desires go away but it brings a help and comfort I lacked before. And so it is with all of us. Will we see ourselves and others as we are in the flesh or as we are in the cross? In the flesh we will complain, make others feel shame, and cause both them and ourselves to hide (it was in the flesh, after all, that Adam and Eve dove for the bushes when God walked in the garden). In the cross we will forgive and find forgiveness, we will move from shame to joy, and from hiding to basking in the light of love and sonship. Yes the light will expose our darkness, but it even more it will tell who we are as children of the living God.
but as a Christian set free by Jesus I choose to fight to walk in his way and live in obedience to his word.
Here is the gospel approach to homosexuality. Notice, this gentleman isn’t making excuses. “This is what I feel. I know acting on that would be sin. Because I believe the gospel, this is how I will choose to live”. That is a markedly different response than someone who would say “My name is Richard. My husband, Tom, and I are committed Christians. How dare you say that we can’t be Christians and that God doesn’t accept our love.” The Christian, like the author of this post, recognizes his own sin and mourns it.
I hate the fact that you have to remain an anon but I totally understand why you do. Praying for you.
Anon: I am so glad you shared your story and I do believe your story with examples of others is exactly what Dr. Mohler meant in his answer. It needs to change now.
So to those who are somehow still confused on how we have lied about homosexuality and engaged in a form of homophobia…
The half-truth is clear. Engaging in homosexual intercourse is a choice, but being tempted with homosexual desires is not a choice. So, yes, we are spreading a form of lie when our collective communication on this issue is that homosexuality is a choice. Our culture understands “homosexual” as something you are, not something you do – when we use the term “homosexual” or homosexuality”, we are not clearly articulating the difference between homosexual sex and same sex attraction. Thus, when say homosexuality is a choice we are not telling the whole truth.
Our kind of homophobia is likewise clear. To you who are offended by the charge of homophobia, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have tried to act in love and grace. Still, on the whole, we don’t understand those who are tempted in this way. We generally avoid interaction with gay people and often dismiss a person entirely because we know they are gay (in ways we don’t those who commit other sexual sins). Because of our past actions and rhetoric, those who have struggled with this issue do not view the church as a safe place to share a struggle with same sex attraction or to confess the sin of homosexual sex. Until a blogger feels safe to publish a post like this in his own name, we still have work to do.
Amen Todd.
Even those without Christ who are practicing homosexuals need this kind of grace shown while showing them their sin and their need for Christ. We need to live what we say we believe.
YES, Debbie
And, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, your Church understands
” that truth without love is in reality no truth at all “:
“I further prayed that to whatever extent our Southern Baptist Convention practiced homophobia and minimized the deep internal struggle in the hearts of those who felt themselves created by God as a homosexual or lesbian, that God would wake us Southern Baptists to the reality that His kingdom is only expanded by speaking the truth in love, and that truth without love is in reality no truth at all. ”
(quoting from Wade Burleson’s blog and I hope he doesn’t mind)
Do we minister to those with SSA in any way different from someone who is struggling with temptations towards being a thief, murderer, gang member, drug dealer, blasphemer, usurer, larcenist etc.? If so, why?
same way . . .
“. . . he who endeavours to amend the faults of human weakness ought to bear this very weakness on his own shoulders, let it weigh upon himself, not cast it off.
For we read that the Shepherd in the Gospel (Luke 15:5) carried the weary sheep, and did not cast it off.
And Solomon says: “Be not overmuch righteous;” (Ecclesiastes 7:17) for restraint should temper righteousness.
For how shall he offer himself to you for healing whom you despise, who thinks that he will be an object of contempt, not of compassion, to his physician?
Therefore had the Lord Jesus compassion upon us in order to call us to Himself, not frighten us away. He came in meekness, He came in humility, and so He said:
“Come unto Me, all you that labour and are heavy laden, and I will refresh you.” (Matthew 11:28)
So, then, the Lord Jesus refreshes, and does not shut out nor cast off, and fitly chose such disciples as should be interpreters of the Lord’s will, as should gather together and not drive away the people of God. ”
St. Ambrose
As one who struggled for many years with homosexual temptation and acted out on it, knowing all along it was not God’s intent for me, I appreciate very much the expressions of grace given here and the true desire to help walk with the many men and women in our churches who live with this struggle. Through my blog and my book I receive countless contacts from Christians who want so badly to have the support of their brothers and sisters — not sympathy for bad choices — but someone to walk with in making better ones.
The pursuit of freedom from homosexuality and a desire for wholeness through holiness is a very tough walk. Christians who struggle with homosexuality do not do so out of choice. It weighs on them constantly and is a difficult burden to lay down, as welcoming as the Cross is. Imagine what an impact Christian survivors could have in the lives of others who are enduring if more of us could be brave enough to be transparent. “Anon’s” understanding of the battle would be so helpful to others, but I understand his concerns about transparency, as I experience it.
I am so thankful for the love of Christ and of those who truly try to be like Him.
I’ve said it many times here, but, if you are looking for a way to help Christians who struggle with homosexuality, please consider further education. At the SBC Convention, we distributed materials to help, including information on my book, one by Christopher Yuan and a very good movie by Chad Ahrendt called “Reconciliation.” These materials can help you open a meaningful dialogue within your church.
Thom
Todd and others,
Homosexuality is a choice…there’s no lie there. That’s the truth. Now, if you want to tell me that other factors lead to that choice…then, fine. I agree. A lot of homosexuals were sexually abused as children. Some grew up where women were the dominant ones in the home. Others have gone that way due to other things…maybe even some physical things have led to them making this choice.
But, it is a choice…just as committing fornication is a choice. Straight people are tempted to commit sexual sins all the time. They CHOOSE whether to respond to it, or not. So, it’s a choice whether to lie, or steal, or murder, or gossip, or commit fornication, or adultery, or homosexuality.
If it’s not a choice, then how could someone ever not commit the sin? seeing that they cant choose whether to do it, or not? The anonymous fella, who wrote this post, says that he chooses to not act on the impulses that he has…amen! God bless him. But, he has to choose all the time to NOT commit homosexual sin.
So, ultimately, it is a choice.
David
Hi VOL (David),
you wrote “If it’s not a choice, then how could someone ever not commit the sin?”
Suppose someone does not ‘choose’ to be attracted to the same sex, and they live a celibate life. If this is the case, they have not willed to be parted from God’s grace and have not sinned.
I think you can see a difference in that, but I don’t know if you believe that all same-sex ‘attraction’ is chosen. I myself don’t think it is a choice.
I agree that ‘acting’ on these attractions is willful, and that these acts are forbidden.
David, you don’t get it. If you want to communicate truth, you must do it in language that people understand — words matter because they are the means by which we communicate.
When you say “homosexuality is a choice” I presume you mean that homosexual sex is a choice, but that is not what you are communicating to the average unbeliever. The term “homosexuality” in its common usage means BOTH homosexual sex AND same sex attraction. People choose one but not necessarily or usually the other.
It is my job and responsibility as a communicator of biblical truth to speak clearly and in a way that the lost people to whom I am communicating understand my meaning. If I am using a word whose meaning to the average hearer is different than I intend — it is my responsibility to be clear.
Thus, if I say “homosexuality is a choice” and what I am communicating is that “same sex attraction and temptation is a choice” then I am not speaking truth, no matter what my intent.
You nailed it, Todd. The discussions since Mohlers comment has done nothing but prove his statements were absolutely true. This is another example.
Maybe you fellas dont read very well, or maybe you just want to argue with me…did you read all that I wrote? or, just the first sentence?
I read the whole thing. My point is that your first sentence does not communicate what the rest of the paragraph explains. Thus, I agree with you on total substance — but the words you choose to use in your summary statement — “homosexuality is a choice” — do not communicate that substance to the majority of lost people. My plea is not for you to change your theology, just to change the words you are using to communicate it — that’s all 🙂
Has anyone here said that homosexuality is not a choice?
Why is this strawman continually built and attacked?
Just to be clear: Yes, it is a choice. But, yes, it is more than that as well.
Jason, I agree with your statement here….
It is built and attacked because it is easy and it gives Christians the opportunity to stop there, pat themselves on the back, and then not do the hard work of engaging homosexuals with the gospel.
Matt,
You may be speaking about some people…but, you’re not speaking about a whole lot of people I know, who believe like me. You’re making a huge blanket statement that absolutely does not fit a lot of Believers in the SBC.
I strongly disagree. Most people in SBC churches stand proudly on their statement, “Homosexuality is a choice and it is sin.” Those same people have never even tried to minister to homosexuals.
I dont think you can really disagree that most people in SBC churches would love to say my quote above and that those same people have never actually engaged homosexuals with the gospel. it is self-evident to all paying attention.
I totally agree that having homosexual sex is a choice. But I think the homosexual attraction the author of the post describes is complicated. I don’t believe anyone is born gay. But when someone says from the earliest time they can remember they have been attracted to people of their own gender there’s more going on there than just choosing between vanilla and hershey’s chocolate (pardon the pun).
I mean, when someone is saying “I know this is wrong and I don’t act on this desire, but I struggle with the desire” that’s a whole different kind of situation than someone who says “I feel this way. I’ve always felt this way. Therefore, it can’t be wrong”.
Dealing with someone who struggles with an attraction to people of their own gender is complicated. What we have to do is never compromise on the fact that homosexual activity is always sinful without any exceptions whatsoever while at the same time being willing to love those who agree that homosexual sex is sinful but struggle with that desire anyway.
David,
Acting on temptation is a choice, true. The gossip chooses to gossip. The liar chooses to lie. The adulterer chooses to commit adultery.
It is the temptation that is not always the choice. Certainly, we can put ourselves into positions to be tempted . . . and that is a choice, but we don’t always have a choice in what tempts us. That’s why we’re warned to be on guard. That’s why people seeking to avoid homosexual — or any sexual — temptation have to institute boundaries and find accountability, something that would be much easier inside the church.
I would never in a million years and with a thousand choices before me have chosen homosexuality as a source of temptation. Yes, factors contribute in most cases. For me, it was the double-whammy of father abandonment and childhood sexual abuse. In sorting it all out that almost seems comforting to know. However, the writer above can point to nothing . . . and certainly not to a choice.
He is not a homosexual, but he is tempted. The problem is, many men and women are “gay-identified.” They have a difficult time when we attack their identities as sin instead of their actions. If we can love them as they are first — and appear ourselves as more “Christ-identified” — we have a great opportunity to help them move out of homosexuality to a healthier identity.
Thom,
Are you a homosexual…right now? Or, are you a blood washed, born again, child of the Living God?
I really dont think that you, nor any other person who struggles with same sex attraction, should identify yourselves as homosexuals…if you’re not living as a homosexual….
David
David,
I never was a homosexual. I was a born-again Christian who, in my weakness, gave in to homosexual temptation. I have never identified myself as a homosexual. I’m a man, a Believer, a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, a neighbor, a brother and a son.
However, the clarity I have is not shared by all who struggle. In looking for answers to their weaknesses in the battle, the easiest one to fall for is “I was born this way.” If we, as Christians, have no answer for that, why would they not believe it. Much of the rest of the world is telling them it is true. We’re defaulting, either with judgment or silence, both of which are not redemptive for those who struggle with unwanted same-sex attraction.
As evidence of the common understanding of the term “homosexuality” I quote the Wikipedia article on the subject (note that Wikipedia is a collaborative and refereed work). I quote:
“Homosexuality is romantic and/or sexual attraction or behavior between members of the same sex or gender.… today the term is used exclusively in reference to sexual attraction, activity, and orientation.”
You will note that in its common usage, the term signifies more than merely sexual acts.
“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” — Inigo Montoya
lol….one of my favorite movies, BTW.
Mine too. Glad we can add a little humor to our discussion. 🙂
So, fornication is not a choice? Being an adulterer is not a choice? Being a drunkard is not a choice? Really?
Hummm?
Are you even reading what people post before you respond?
How is this hard to understand?
David: I don’t know why you persist in this. Yes, fornication is a choice, because it is an act. Adultery is an act (yes, even active lusting). But a man’s desire for women is not a choice. If you are going to discuss this with us, at least use the term as it is being used in this discussion. Homosexual ACTS are sin. No one denies this. But the term homosexuality is more commonly used to mean same sex attraction. Are you suggesting that the author of this post, and Thom are lying? They say they did not choose their attraction. Are they misleading us?
Perhaps we as Christians need to move beyond the “choice” language.
Yes, we know clearly, that to actually act upon a temptation there is volition involved–we make a choice, perhaps sometimes with more thought than others, but we move from a temptation to sin because we choose the actions to do that.
But most temptations we face are not choices–they happen b/c of sin nature, psychological issues, satanic influence, or other people. Perhaps the choices we make (places/people we hang around or don’t) may heighten or lessen temptations…but we don’t choose what we’re tempted by.
So perhaps instead of couching it in choice, we simply recognize it is what is. Some people have same-sex desires. Some people act on same-sex desires and some don’t.
But all of them, be they Christians or non-Christians, need ministered to with the gospel…
I am not saying that anyone is lying about their being attracted to the same sex. I do understand that there’s a lot of things going on to make them attracted to the same sex. Of course, the biggest thing is the sin nature that we all have.
But, to say that a person is a homosexual is just not the way to approach this….a person, who has been born again, who is not living in homosexual sin….should not be identified as a homosexual. He or she is not a homosexual. They are a Believer. They are a Follower of Christ…a Saint of God. They are not a homosexual.
When I got saved, I was no longer a drunkard and a fornicator. I was a saved, child of God. And, frankly, I would be insulted if you or anyone else, continued to call me a drunkard, or a fornicator.
Does that clear it up?
David
But are there not believers who are genuinely saved, yet still fall into patterns of alcoholism and immorality?
Could there not be a genuinely saved person who still struggles with homsexuality? As in the anonymous testimony here, and in the testimony of those with SSA I have talked to, they would love it if the desires and attractions went away.
“Does that clear it up?”
Almost. I am in total agreement with you that we should not buy into the whole “orientation” idea nor should we call a saved person a homosexual — “such WERE some of you”.
However, your unwillingness to recognize the former point that the phrase “homosexuality is a choice” communicates something OTHER than the biblical truth you intend is staggering to me.
I think we may all be closer here than the slightly contentious comments would indicate.
Do we all agree that homosexual attraction is not necessarily a choice – that we do not always have a choice as to what sins we are drawn to?
Do we all agree that homosexual activity IS a choice – at least for a believer. Just as I may have an attraction to a woman, but have the choice NOT to commit adultery, a saved person has the resources in Christ not to commit acts of homosexuality.
We do not control that which tempts us, but believers do have the resources in Christ to control our actions and to say no to sin.
I think that even though we are approaching this from different sides, we are perhaps in agreement on these things.
…if only we are able to get past ourselves and our “parsing” of words and, if you look at some other places, this lambasting of words such as “we”; then maybe we can figure out how to use the gospel to do some ministry that actually makes a difference.
Except that I contend that language matters. If you willfully use words that miscommunicate your message, then there is a problem.
Folks lets take it back to the Bible……it does not give us any guidance as to whether Same Sex Attraction is a choice or not!
So to be dogmatic is presumptious!
Robert,
I agree with you that many times we expand upon what the Bible says. What is clear is that the struggle with homosexual temptation has always been with us. Some act on it and some don’t. People of faith, if they believe the Bible, know they should not. That was my quandary. I wanted to do something I knew as a Believer was wrong. As a Christian I can confess; I can repent; I can accept forgiveness forgiven. That does not mean I might not still be tempted.
One choice we can all make is to walk with the people in our church who put forth the effort to be strong in the face of temptation.
BTW—-Wikipedia is a politically leftist organization.
So what’s your point? If we are sharing the gospel with political leftists, shouldn’t we want to be sure we are communicating clearly to them? My whole point of quoting Wikipedia is to show what lost people hear when we use the term “homosexual”.
Maybe in light of the post we should ask ourselves the question:
What would/should our churches do specifically if someone stood up and confessed they struggle with homosexuality/same-sex attraction?
Of course with this we can ask the same about alcoholism, anger, lying, etc.
The opening post states: Truth be told, I have rarely seen a church where a person has stood up and confessed their gossip or anger let alone those seemingly more shameful desires of sexuality.
I wonder: is anyone here a part of a church where one person in the pew (or padded chair nowadays 🙂 ) actually knows the struggles, pains, and even victories of the person sitting next to them? If so, what’s the secret that so many others seem to lack; and if not, how do we get there?
Mike,
I hate to say this, but I think many times church leadership stands in the way. What I’ve discovered — as one who has confessed before the church — that members, for the most part, can deal with it, but are over-protected by pastors who are clueless about it.
My couples Adult Sunday School class (Connection Group) has asked me to teach on the subject of homosexual temptation and victory several times, from Leviticus to I Corinthians. Their response is always, pretty much without exception, a collective “our church really needs to learn about this.” However, the reaction from the church leadership to the idea of a Sunday night elective just to teach about proper responses was “it would be a distraction.” And, not to stereotype any church, mine is pretty mainstream: First Southern-Del City.
We are denying the fact that the people in the pews are dealing with it already, if not in their own lives, then in the lives of a family member, friend or co-worker. I think many in the pews take their cues from the pulpit and that is why we’re not being effective in some areas. We’re all fine on Sunday.
I would share anytime, anywhere, and in a way that embraces grace and offends no one.
Thom, you said: We are denying the fact that the people in the pews are dealing with it already, if not in their own lives, then in the lives of a family member, friend or co-worker. I think many in the pews take their cues from the pulpit and that is why we’re not being effective in some areas. We’re all fine on Sunday.
A man in my church tells the story of how in Sunday School whenever he and his wife were having issues or a fight, they’d come and lay it out on the table for prayer and advice. Something as common place as that and he said others looked at him like, “why on earth are you telling us this?” That same guy said at another time when they were having issues with their daughter, the people weren’t so surprised to hear them bring it up, and they offered prayer and encouragement…but then not one person in the group ever asked in the future how things were with the situation.
This man claims it is a big reason he stopped going to that Sunday School and why it’s hard to even get him into church now.
And that was just spousal conflict and teenager issues…common place stuff.
I’ve wonder if we have lost a sense of how to bear one another’s burdens?
I know as a pastor I want my people to be able to share, be open, and help each other. Yet the weekly services do often seem quite sterile and uninvolved. We sing our songs, we do our prayers which tend to be generic or focused on people’s health (just like the main article here laments), and I preach and life goes on.
Maybe as a church leader part of what I need to do is push the bounds of the comfort zone and start opening up times for people to share and truly be prayed over…
Of course how to make sure followup and accountability occur after that…?
Thom,
I would rather say that we should treat those people, who live in homosexual sin, with love. We should reach out to them with the Gospel. And, if a homosexual gets saved, then they should be welcomed into our churches….just as we’d welcome a drunkard, or a fornicator, who gets saved….changed by the power of God.
I would not conitnue to identify them with being a homosexual, though. “Such WERE some of you” is the way it says it in Corinthians….
So, for some of the people in this comment thread to continue identifying people, who struggle with same sex attraction, as homosexuals….is wrong.
David
That last part should also say…”So, for some of the people in this comment thread to continue identifying people, who have been saved, yet who struggle with same sex attraction, as homosexuals….is wrong.
I see your point, but I don’t think most of us were distinguishing between saved and unsaved people. Perhaps we should use SSA instead of homosexuality, although, as Dave pointed out, Christians are not immune to falling into any type of sin.
David, is 100% correct here…
“I would not conitnue to identify them with being a homosexual, though. “Such WERE some of you” is the way it says it in Corinthians….”
The word is clear… regardless of our past live/addictions/sins… we are to now identify ourselves with Christ.
(2 Corinthians 5:17)
“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away ; behold , all things are become new.”
Greg, I agree too. As I scanned this thread so far I haven’t seen anyone arguing contrary to that position though. Have you? Maybe I missed it.
No Mark, I have not… But I so rarely get a chance to agree with David that it just felt good to do so. 🙂
I’m glad that Greg and I could agree on that… 🙂 But, Mark, yes, they are…or, at least, it’s coming across to me that way…I mean, read Todd’s statements and a few others, and it seems as if they’re saying that to call homosexuality a sin is wrong…that these people, who are saved, are still homosexuals. And, they seem to be saying that being a homosexual is okay, it’s just the actual, sexual act that’s wrong.
I dont think people, who used to be homosexuals, should be identified with that label, once they are born again….no matter how much they struggle with same sex attraction(temptation). They’re not homosexuals…and homosexuality is a choice…with many other factors leading to it…yes. And, homosexuality is a sin….it’s living a lifestyle that’s against what the Scripture teaches is holy.
That’s my point in all this…
David
David,
Do you think people here (or those under discussion – ie. Mohler) believe that homosexuality is: (a) not a sin, or, (b) not a choice?
Are you kidding, David? I agree with you on this point too — yet you seem unwilling to try to understand what we are saying. Are you even reading our posts? Good grief!
How can you not see the difference between temptation to sin and the sin itself? How can you not see that Christians who have been saved from a gay lifestyle may still have serious spiritual battles against their own flesh and may still be tempted to sin in this way? How can you be blind to the fact that when you say “homosexuality is a choice” that you are lumping in temptation with the sinful act?
Todd,
It seems that often times David doesnt even try to comprehend what people are saying before responding… which is why he is always running in circles with people he is trying to “dialogue” with…
This article is evidence that what Dr Mohler was advocating is a PARADIGM shift.
I still disagree that we need to follow his lead on this topic.
I will stand with the words and actions of Dr Wright but not the words or apparent methods that Dr Mohler seems to be advocating!
1. All Christians are commanded to follow the cultural mandate to not do so is rebellion to God…..contra Greg Buchanan
2.stigmatism is a Biblical practice…..I am comfortable with the use of this in the church and in society. The puritans freq used this as did the anabaptist
3.homophobia is a secular term that can only be understood by knowing the mind of those who practice it . God commands us to judge the actions when we do not know the heart of man.
Question did Christians practice homophobia before 1969. the year the phrase was coined.
4. the thing that disturbs me most is the supporters of homosexuality that say they are wanting the world to be Christlike in dealing with homosexuality but continue to advance the political agenda of the GLBT community. Mike Curb and his dealings with Belmont is one such example
5. I am thankful for the leadership of Glen Casada and people like Kevin Shrum for setting the law and the Christian example in support of that law.
Law to the Proud, the homosexuals activist. Grace to the humble, those struggling with SSA.
like
sorry meant to inlude this link in my comment about Kevin Shrum.
http://tinyurl.com/3vzzsyu
I believe some people in this discussion are believing that c) being a homosexual is okay, as long as you’re not doing the sexual part of it; and we should continue to call people homosexuals, who’ve been saved by the grace of God; and that anyone who calls homosexuality a choice is telling a lie.
Does that sum it up, Jason.
BTW, I believe that we should lovingly reach out to those caught up in the sin of homosexuality with the Gospel of Jesus…and, when they get saved, then the church should welcome them as Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Just want that made clear.
David
You BELIEVE that…but you have also shown an acute ability to not be able to grasp what others have actually written, so maybe you are mistaken.
In fact, I know you are mistaken.
I think everyone here agrees that people that are saved from any sin are no longer identified by that sin, but by Christ. Just to clear that up. Why do I believe that? Because they have said it…repeatedly. Not sure you read those parts.
As for the homosexuality/choice/lie part….that has been explained to you about a dozen times. I can only conclude at this point that you are unable to grasp what is being said, as I don’t want to believe that you can be so purposefully obtuse.
Arrogance and short sightedness are not a pretty thing.
I agree.
Jason is right — you are mistaken.
David . . . it would be wonderful if the answer in this particular case was “be saved.” But what do you propose we do with the men and women who were already saved before they began battling with homosexuality? Unwelcome them? remove them? Declare them as false Christians? Or love them and welcome them and walk with them through confession, repentance and restoration?
Option #1: “”confession, repentance and restoration?””
Option #2: “”Unwelcome them? remove them?””
Thom,
Many times I’ve said that I’m sure that there are Believers, who struggle with this temptation. Of course. Just because someone is saved doesnt mean that we’re free from temptation, and they’re not free from the temptation of same sex attraction. I never said that they would be totally free from this…until Jesus comes back.
So, I’m kind of confused at your comment…and others, who claim that I think getting saved will make a person free from temptation. I didnt say that.
BTW, I would treat a Believer who fails in this area, just as I would a Believer who falls to any other temptation.
So, I’m a little confused at the comments here.
David
David,
I was responding to this statement from your comments above:
“BTW, I believe that we should lovingly reach out to those caught up in the sin of homosexuality with the Gospel of Jesus…and, when they get saved, then the church should welcome them as Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Just want that made clear.”
Perhaps I misunderstood your intent, but when you said “when they get saved,” it appeared to me you were implying that anyone “caught up in the sin of homosexuality” is unsaved. This is not necessarily the case, as your follow-up comments indicate you understand.
I didn’t say that you said being saved would make anyone free from temptation. If we’re breathing at all, we all know that is not true.
I think Dr. Mohler’s post today enlightens our discussion and maybe where we’re talking past each other. I commend the whole article, but here is one clarifying line:
“But, it is one thing to acknowledge and confess that one is struggling with same-sex attraction — it is yet another to announce and claim homosexuality as one’s personal identity.”
In all my comments here, I have not defended the latter, but only encouraged understanding and sympathy for the former.
“Thus, a believer confessing a struggle with same-sex attraction should not be condemned by the church, but brought under its care, discipline, ministry, and protection.”
Todd B,
In response to your comments on Wikipedia. My point is that we need not capitulate to those on the political left in our use and definition of language in todays society. I believe that is what Al Mohler did and no homosexual was convinced or will ever believe that Southern Baptist as a group love them.
The theological premise that is wrong is that love itself will win people to Christ…if we can just love them better!!!NO No No
Its Gods Grace not the cheap grace of human love that Satan so easily counterfeits.
Love Always Speaks Truth…
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.
Before accusing Mohler of captiulation, how about reading what he actually promotes and the meaning he puts behind “lie” and “homophobia”…
The full article is on his blog from not quite a year ago: http://www.albertmohler.com/2010/10/04/between-the-boy-and-the-bridge-a-haunting-question/
Mike,
We were having such fun, and now you have ruined everything by posting what Mohler actually said… 🙂
Thanks for this link — hard to argue with Mohler here.
You are arguing against the wrong premise. No one ever said you can love someone into the kingdom. The real underlying theological premise is that the gospel must be communicated clearly and in the language of the hearer or it has not been communicated at all.
Communicating the gospel clearly is not cheap grace.
Todd B
Pardon me for not clarifying that second……it was not really directed at you all.
In fact I had Wade Burleson in my mind from his post and from past discussion.
it is a premise that I have personally heard 1000s of times. One young man who attends Vanderbilt told me that that proclamation of the Gospel is not what we change people people is sharing love with them.
You are mistaken when it comes to Wade’s views too.
Uh oh, Robert. You better watch out before the WDF** gets after you.
**Wade Defense Force
Yep. And that will always be the case. I don’t apologize at all for it.
No problem, we’re good 🙂
So are people reading Mohler’s articles or just a video that lasts a couple of minutes?
I’ve read several articles and counting. So far, everything is biblically sound.
Of course, had Mohler written an article that was “compromising” our stance concerning homosexuals, this whole thing would have happened years ago.
Though I am glad that this discussion is taking place. I would imagine that Mohler chose those words because he knew that we’d all be falling all over ourselves talking about this.
I also wonder if Lumpkins knows that he’s promoting even more discussion and more delving into Mohler’s writings with every continuing blogpost.
I’m becoming convinced that Mohler has called a tune and we’re all dancing.
And for the record, I’m very glad and very thankful that this is now at the forefront of discussion. Maybe some people will realize who Mohler was talking about when they look at themselves in the mirror…
“”So are people reading Mohler’s articles or just a video that lasts a couple of minutes?””
Bill, for me that is exactly the point. His articles were not read by even most of those that clapped in agreement with his statement.
His statement on the video was a “stand alone” pronouncement; not because he had not written much more, but precisely because–as he admitted–it is doubtful Peter (or the rest of us liars) had read all 200 articles.
His statement was a “bold assertion” (called in logic a “gratuitous assertion”). It was not qualified, expanded, or mitigated by anything else he had written.
It is almost — in my opinion — like the difference between the “regular print and the fine print” of a contract. Given what he no doubt has written in those 200 articles, I probably would have more agreement.
It’s like having a one paragraph thesis with 200 or more pages of footnotes. That’s problematic for me.
Bill, for me that is exactly the point. His articles were not read by even most of those that clapped in agreement with his statement.
Frank: How do you know this to be a fact? I would disagree. Al Mohler was published in many periodicals and spoke on many venues including CNN among other places such as his radio program. He has been heard and read by millions. I think the messengers knew much more about what Al Mohler has written than you want to believe.
Debbie,
I was simply responding to what Mohler said about his articles. Of course, I would expect you to know more about what Mohler said than he would.
If you believe that the majority of the 4800 messengers had read and analyzed the 200 articles Mohler wrote, that’s your opinion and you are welcome to it.
My opinion is the same as Mohler indicated in his speech: “I would not expect most to have read and analyzed these 200 articles.” That’s just my opinion.
“Yet, when gay activists accuse conservative Christians of homophobia, they are also right. Much of our response to homosexuality is rooted in ignorance and fear. We speak of homosexuals as a particular class of especially depraved sinners and we lie about how homosexuals experience their own struggle. Far too many evangelical pastors talk about sexual orientation with a crude dismissal or with glib assurances that gay persons simply choose to be gay. While most evangelicals know that the Bible condemns homosexuality, far too many find comfort in their own moralism, consigning homosexuals to a theological or moral category all their own.”
I have not experienced this in any SBC church that I have attended or personal observed!
That is a heart-wrenching story. I don’t think it is unique. I think there are any number of “temptations” that if most pastors shared them, they would eventually be forced out of their churches.
People put pastors on a pedestal, and they don’t seem to like many blemishes showing.
Because not all sins are equally “abominable” (either in the eyes of God or certainly not in the eyes of the world), the fact that this person struggles with homosexuality is indeed even more problematic. I doubt that this will change at the grassroots level in my lifetime — perhaps somethime, but not soon.
So, I certainly can “feel the pain.” I have my own demons I struggle with, that shall remain unspecified. Perhaps one difference is I gain a little more victory over them each day.
I believe there was a time when my constant struggle with this problem disqualified me from ministry and I prayed for strength to either gain enough victory to minister with integrity, or have enough courage to find another vocation.
I think there can be a point that one struggles so greatly over such a long period of time that they cannot hide that struggle and maintain integrity to tell others they can be set free.
I think it is very possible I will be in minority here, but I would advise the anonymous poster to ask: “am I as free in Christ as He wants me to be?”
This was a painful question I asked in fighting my temptation, and frankly I was afraid of the answer. But, God is good and His power is absolute. I do not think that a person must forever deal with the same temptation without gaining complete victory.
Yes, I still have “fleeting bouts with this same demon,” but they are just that fleeting. A good healthy “Get thee behind me, Satan,” sets puts me back in the victory circle.
I’d pray this for any brother that finds himself in the heart-wrenching position of the brother in this post.
I am writing under a pseudonym because I, too, struggle with what has been called “same sex attraction” and would like to offer some additional insight. I understand why the writer has written anonymously about aspects of this disorder and because I think my church needs to understand, I am going to offer my testimony. I am not a pastor but a very visible layman (teacher, leader) in my local SBC church. Growing up there were only 2 reasons people touched me: they either hit me or used me for sex. I was repeatedly raped by my grandfather until I finally submitted. I am married and am a father and grandfather and I live in a constant struggle with an attraction for men. I have been silent all of my life. I would never dare tell anyone in my conservative SBC church about what goes on inside of me because I know I would move from being a “good and respected Christian” to one who is tainted. If ever I should speak, my community of believers would not disown me, but like Willie Metcalf in the Spoon River Anthology, I would become “a thing separate from the earth”, a man no longer seen as solid and dependable but one sick with a disease of Sin that renders me suspect and uncomfortably unreliable.
While I agree that all behavior is a choice, my “orientation” is a brutality that never goes away and it lives within me in the form of a compulsion toward sex with men. I have fought this compulsion all of my life. The fact that I have never succumbed to it really means nothing because I know how close I have come (it’s really easy nowadays). The only thing that has stopped me is my recollection of God. Somehow, someway, God either manages to intrude when the madness is upon me or I recall my love for Him and I turn away. I tell you this because I see any discussion about “choice” as inherently useless as if all I have to is identify the temptation and simply choose not to act. There is a battleground upon which this “choice” is made, one that has made me see the awfulness of Sin as a condition and not merely as an act of commission or omission. It is a never ending, incessant, and demanding compulsion that arises deep out of my psyche and offers me a peace while God offers me war.
While I agree that homosexuality can be a sin of lust, mine is not. It is wrapped in a swirling, convulsive, and compulsive sensuality that can threaten to overwhelm me at any time. It comes unbidden and strikes when I least expect it or when I think I have gotten strong. With God’s help I have stood against its force and fought my way into its dark heart and seen its genesis. I know that what these people did to me (there were more than one – no Christian family for me) hurt me at the very core of being. I now know that this madness is a way of making peace with a hurt that never goes away, a way to accept it when it seems all my God created being can do is scream out loud in the face of an awful pain. It is like posttraumatic stress disorder (which I also have because of the encounters): there is a physical and mental transformation of self that occurs because of trauma. Thus, I fight Sin in ways that go beyond mere choice although ultimately I have to choose. Still, I know the Holy Spirit speaks for me when I cannot find the words. So, please understand that telling me about choice is really not at all helpful and masks the true battle.
With that said, and since this is a response and I am constrained by time and space, let me briefly present what I have come to see about homosexual behavior. While homosexuality can be a choice of lust, it seems to me that, in general, homosexuality is a profoundly compulsive sexual attraction to others of the same sex that hovers at the edge of existential being. If you listen carefully to what homosexuals say about their experience (these are the ones driving the cultural shift in attitudes toward homosexuals – the people behind the Human Rights Watch, Lambda Legal, PFLAG, GLSEN, and the like), they will tell you they feel as if they were “born this way”. If you listen even more closely, you will hear that their attraction to members of the same sex is part of who they are as people. It is their way of informing us that they do not move toward homosexual behavior because they choose to; they are telling us they are homosexual because it is the only way they feel and exhibit sensuality and love.
What homosexuals do not tell you, but only hint at, is the struggle they have with their homosexuality. For example, if you read their descriptions of what they call the “coming out” process, you will learn they struggle between an unspoken and probably unacknowledged awareness of the righteousness of God’s creation (i.e. something is disordered within them) and the unwanted and unforgiving demands of their compulsive sensuality toward those of the same sex. Right now their argument is that their struggle for self-acceptance and the guilt they feel is merely the burden of society’s wrong-headed view of who they are (which, I believe, is what propels them to be so vocal). What they fail to see is that this struggle is with God and his natural and spiritual goodness and offers a way to see into the true nature of sin and what God has offered through Jesus in the way of wholeness. This is the fertile ground for the gospel rightly presented and lived by those who have come to be like Jesus.
I also believe that much of what constitutes a homosexual’s existential struggle for self is the result of sin visited upon them so I see the disorder primarily as one of nurture, not nature. This is an aspect of sin that we, as Southern Baptists, tend to ignore. We talk a lot about sin, but it is usually in terms of behavior, of things we do or don’t do. We rarely talk about sin as a condition of this world and we rarely acknowledge the damage done by sin in the lives of many. The Satan hates God so much that he inflicts as much damage as he can on those whom God has created. Child abuse, rape, verbal torment, bullying in all of its forms, and physical abuse are ready examples of an exterior brutality that damages not only body but psyche and soul. Consequently, those who suffer from the exterior brutality of sin (and there are a lot more of them than you might imagine) find themselves, like me, battling demons inside that never seem to give them a choice. As I said, this is the righteous and fertile ground of the Word because the gospel speaks so clearly against Sin. Unfortunately, we continue to talk of homosexual behavior as something that a person can choose not to do and we rarely consider the battle the person is fighting and what we can do to help – even if the person does not acknowledge that there is a war going on inside. It is true that God heals and saves but this truth has to be more than a platitude; it has to be a reality of life with God and within the community of God.
My struggle has also made me realize that we desperately need to change what we say about homosexuality. Right now our response seems to be to merely state that homosexuality is wrong. While that is Biblically true as to behavior, to the world it looks like we are wagging our fingers and telling everyone, in no uncertain terms, that homosexuals are not acceptable to God. Furthermore, despite our protestations that we “hate the sin but love the sinner”, the message we are sending to homosexuals is that we will not welcome homosexuals into our midst. In fact, just this last Sunday one of my Sunday School members asked me if I knew the name of the person who told the lesbian couple who recently visited our church that they were not welcome at our church. She knew of this couple through friends and one was deeply hurt and is not attending any church while the other is attending a church that is not quite so hostile.
I tell you this story because it sums up how I believe we are coming to be seen by the world. I believe the society/culture in which we find ourselves sees Southern Baptists in particular, and the Evangelical Church (the part of the church that holds to inerrancy of scripture and sola scriptura) in general, as simply people who are judgmental and who hurt otherwise decent people who happen to be homosexual, Consequently, the world does not see us as loving because no matter how kindly and gently we say that God condemns homosexual behavior (and we use some pretty powerful words like “abomination”), the world hears our words, and sees us, the people who say them, as harsh, exclusive, and hurtful. We are not seen as a loving people no matter how we try to parse it.
This is happening, I believe, because the world is listening to homosexuals. As homosexuals (I include in this term gay, lesbian, transgendered, and transsexual persons) speak of their experience in finding out the truth of themselves, the world sees an honesty of being that exposes a fundamental and unalterable truth of self which demands acceptance and respect. So much so that the world has come to see us as harsh, cruel, and hurtful in its comments about homosexuals whom the world now sees as a separate category of human experience and essential makeup, not choice. The world even has a word for this hostile attitude: “homophobia”. A silly word, to be sure, but it is a word the world uses frequently to condemn Southern Baptists and other members of the Evangelical Church. Sadly, the world now sees itself as morally good and just in upholding the dignity of homosexuals and it views Southern Baptists and the Evangelical Church as demeaning and harshly judgmental.
All this has happened because the world has changed. Over the past 30 or 40 years we have experienced a tectonic shift in the underlying philosophical and moral basis of individual dignity and shared community. Call it post-modernism, existentialism, political correctness, the madness of the 60’s, or just plain sin; it doesn’t matter: the world has changed and we need to acknowledge this shift and what it means to present the gospel to a world that is no longer culturally Christian. With that said, please note I am not saying we have to agree, accommodate (like our brothers and sisters in the Presbyterian Church), or even embrace the change; we only have to acknowledge it. However, we must sadly recognize a profound, and to our ears shocking, aspect of this change: an argument based on the Word of God is only persuasive to those who accept God and His Word; it is no longer, in a general sense, persuasive to the world at large. All you have to do is look at Western Europe and Canada to see what all of this will mean for Christians in the future.
I believe the Evangelical Church as a whole is entering into a new phase, becoming once again like the church right after Pentecost and before Constantine saw the cross at Milvian Bridge. I can see the handwriting on the wall: we are coming again to a time when we will be belittled, marginalized, and ridiculed. As awful as that sounds, we can rejoice because it is the fertile ground for the Word to come alive. I am joyful because it reminds me of a song I loved when I was young and new in Christ: now, more than ever, they will know we are Christians by our love.
We are not alone: we have each other, joint citizenship in the Kingdom of God, the power of the Holy Spirit, and the leadership and example of a Savior who went where none dared go. If nothing else, what we do about the disorders of homosexuality and of this modern world might help us rightly use the keys Jesus gave us for the Kingdom. We can either sit back and occasionally jingle the keys in our pocket so the world will know we are saved, or we can actually take them out and use them. My prayer is we find a way to use the keys, to renew ourselves and to offer those whom the world has disordered and sin has brutalized the peace that passes understanding. So, I want to join this debate. One day I will tell others my name.
I have enjoyed this discussion very much. There for a minute I thought we were on Mars Hill. Each of you are correct in expressing your thouths as you write them down. It is good we discuss this issue for far too many churches do not. There is far too much stereotyping being hurled from both groups. I am what many call a bottom line thinkler and like to get to the under lying issues of debates and scripture.
I will interject several thoughts of my own:
1. We are not responsible for any thought that may pop into our minds. Only God knows where they come from. We are responsible and will be held accountable if we act upon these thoughts if they are not biblical.
2. The further we remove ourselves from the leadership of our Lord and the biblical foundations which we treasure above gold we are left with what I pondered many years ago in seminary.
We are left to our own emotional battle without the guidance from the prementioned above and I would add the good counsel of strong Christian friends. We are in deep trouble and headed out on a very bumpy road.
This is how the process works: Self rationalization leads to self justification; self justification can lead to action.
3. We as Todd has stated communicate with words. We may debate for ever what the definition of words may mean. Whether we speak eqivocally or nonequivocally will not eradicate ones feelings of what is actually going on in the mind of the individual who is struggling. It could be your closest friend and still not know their struggles.
4. The church is under such an attack these days by worldly wisdom to become more like the world. The world says the church is unfair in their beliefs. We are attacked by the media and activist groups who advocate who knows what. The devil is alive and well. Then on the other hand we have ministers who are activists and propound their views that are half truths. Yes my friends there is war going on and I do believe it is going to get worse.
I will try to sum my bantering as an old man that I am. Somewhere along the line the sovereignty of God has been passed onto the sovereignty of the sinner. I believe this happened very subtly from preachers trying to preach psychology and sociology from the pulpit. This has left a bad taste of secular theology being propagated. Now you younger preachers are dealing with this problem. I know Todd and he is doing a great service for his Lord. When all is said and done we all will appear before the Throne of Grace and be accountable for our own actions and not being able to blame no one for our own choices. It would have been nice to have had encouragement and some help on our journey.
So as you all battle the realm of sin remember I Cor. 15:10. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not without effect.