Dr. Mohler, Dr. Moore and others discuss the Southern Seminary view 0f alcohol. This is an hour long. You are welcome to listen to it and respond to what was said.
If you don’t listen, don’t discuss. It’s pretty simple.
Its one of the most biblically sound and balanced treatments of the subject I’ve heard. As always, bravo Dr. Mohler.
I am not going to give my view of the presentation because I want the discussion to be about what was said, not what I said about what was said.
I, too, believe this is one of the best, balanced treatments of the use of alcohol. The case is not about abstaining from alcohol because it’s a Biblical command, but because Christian discipleship requires such a deep love for people (esp. those who suffer from alcoholism) that we willingly sacrifice, like Paul, for the sake of the gospel. Very compelling to me.
yep
I responded to this when it happened 6 years ago. If I were to write it again I’d probably write it better and discuss it in more detail. But it’s worth adding to your discussion as I think Dr. Mohler and Dr. Moore, who are men I greatly respect, are wrong in this case.
Eh. I am just of the opinion that there is no good reason – or should I say no justification – for drinking alcohol in general and beer in particular. There is no “upside”, as tea, Coca-Cola, lemonade, milk shakes, fruit smoothies, coffee etc. are just as capable of filling any legitimate need or want (i.e. eliminating thirst or wanting something tastier than water with your cheeseburger or eggplant casserole) but there are plenty of downsides. The issue, then, is not so much the alcohol itself, but your reason for wanting it. Saying “I just want it because I like… Read more »
Job,
You said, “I find the defiantly public promotion of drinking alcohol – and especially beer and liquor, as opposed to red and white wine with low alcohol content…” If your issue with beer has to do with the alcohol content then it is not properly based. Most wine is 10-15% alcohol by volume. There are beers that high, but you have to really look for and want to find them. The beers 99% of people are drinking fall in around 4-6% ABV, which means it takes a lot more beer than wine to get drunk.
hard to get drunk on cherry coke…and it taste a whole lot better…
David
Dr. Mohler’s story at around 50:00 was disappointing. He said he was in a public restaurant with some men of like faith from other denominations that don’t have the same convictions as the SBC on alcoholic consumption. Two of the men ordered beer with their lunch and he asked them to forgo it since he was in a public place. I don’t have a problem with him making that request. When he said that he would have left them if they chose to drink the beer, I was disappointed. Jesus was accused of being a glutton and a drunkard, which… Read more »
Churches have the right to set covenants, and it is a good thing, not a bad thing. A pastor should have the freedom to set boundaries that are based on the environment and circumstances that he is ministering in so long as those boundaries to not transgress scripture. The minister would have to make sure to point out that one’s salvation, his standing with God, is not based on adhering to the extra rules, but rather that they exist for the purpose of leading his particular congregation. In the context of this particular discussion, I would have no problem at… Read more »
Job, As somebody said further down in the comments, “I’m leery of rules that make it harder to be a member of a church than it is to be a member of heaven.” I realize that churches have the right to set covenants and membership qualifications, but is the way we exercise that right stemming from a Christian or secular worldview? If we are limiting membership to those who will act like us and live like us in the non-essentials, then are we denying church membership to a brother or sister who Christ would let in? Also, who is to… Read more »
To begin I agree drunkenness is a sin and we need to be addressing that issue in the same manner that scripture prescribes for addressing other areas of sin. But come on lets be honest here. When we are addressing this issue we do so out of a common cultural conviction and not a biblical one. When we preach abstinence we are preaching a common cultural conviction and not the word of God. I say that primarily because there are other “sin” issues, clearly delineated in Scripture, that our congregations are struggling with that are left unaddressed because the cultural… Read more »
In our day and time, the cultural thing to do is to drink alcohol… not condemn it. It seems that everyone is drinking it. So, the cultural agruement is turning to the other side. The culture is drinking.
I make my arguements against drinking alcohol based on Scripture.
Now, I need to go find my a double cheeseburger and fries and a diet, cherry coke from somewhere….
David
On a side note I have several posts addressing this issue on my blog, there are two more in the works I just have not had the time to blog recently.
http://keithwalters.org/2009/06/21/bottoms-up-reflections-on-alcohol-and-the-word-of-god/
http://keithwalters.org/2010/06/28/bottoms-up-the-lost-art-of-moderation/
007:
Dave Miller said:”If you don’t listen, don’t discuss. It’s pretty simple.”
Did you listen to this audio?
Tom,
Twerent talking to you, Dude. But, thanks for asking.
David
BTW, this would be an example of precisely what I was talking about on the other thread.
Jason,
Yea, Tom does want to make everything personal. Maybe he’ll listen to your advice.
David
Twerent??????
You are sounding like my dad now.
Dave,
lol
David
For the record, my dad is 82. Don’t know what that says about you.
I don’t really want another rehashing of the alcohol arguments from other streams. If you listen to the audio, feel free to discuss. But lets discuss what was said in the audio, okay?
So back to the actual audio . . . I agree with the sentiments of others. I have been greatly blessed by the ministry of Mohler and Moore. At the same time the refusal to eat with someone who is having alcohol because you are afraid of getting phone calls is both disappointing and in all honesty unlike Christ. He should have welcomed those phone calls and counseled those calling in regards to their legalism and informed them that he was eating with fellow believers who happen to have different convictions. Are we to allow our fellowship and in all… Read more »
VERY… VERY… GOOD POINTS!!!
This whole issue of not eating with another believer because he ordered a beer kind of reminds me of Paul’s confrontation of Peter for refusing to eat with Gentile believers (Galatians 2:11).
I wonder what Mohler or Moore would think if they were sitting at a table with a Jewish Believer who told them that if they ordered a “Pork Sandwich” he would have to get up a leave?
Grace for the Journey,
I appreciate the heart of these guys, but there really isn’t much new here. The implication that the ancients drank alcohol solely because they didn’t have good drinking water is simply false. They clearly drank it because they like it. They also imply that (of course) abstention is the mature course and partaking is the immature course (with you biblical support). Well, of course, that can be true, but is it always? Abstaining from alcohol because of conscience, or because you fear making someone stumble or for whatever reason is a good thing. To push back against Jeff’s initial statement… Read more »
Anyone heard this argument: “The alcoholic beverages of Jesus’ day were not the same as the alcoholic beverages today…”
Would this mean that eating Twinkies is a sin, since I can’t imagine much of what the early church had access to was that high in calories, sugars, and fat?
I think for too long we have accepted this argument without challenge. I have no doubt that the ancients drank watered wine sometimes. I also have no doubt that in some cases the watered wine was safer than water. But they clearly had un-distilled beverages just as we have. The process of making beer and wine is not all that different today, and produces a beverage pretty consistently. Since the bible warns about drunkenness, then clearly they had beverages able to make one drunk.
Maybe we accept historical context, because it’s true! They did water down the unfermented wine they drank…anywhere from 3 parts water to 10 parts! Sounds pretty watered down to me. And yes, of course, they also had the fermented stuff…undiluted….which could make a person high, or drunk. This is what was called foolish to drink in Proverbs. This is probably what made Noah drunk. This is probably what made all the drunkards talked about in the Bible drunk. This is what we’re told to stay away from…as Believers…in order to be wise people….so that we wont sin against God by… Read more »
David 007,
“They did water down the unfermented wine they drank…anywhere from 3 parts water to 10 parts!”
Care to give the Chapter and verse of the Scripture you are referring to in this statement? NO?
chapter and verse? for historical context? lol
David
PS. would you like me to list all the commentaries and Greek help books that would state this info???
again….lol
What Historical context??? ROF-LOL
Sure David, list all the commentaries and Greek help books that state this info please 🙂
And be sure not to leave out the Bible…
Just for the record… you have NO Scripture to back up what you say on this…
Again ROF-LOL
I remember that D.A. Carson said something like this in his commentary on John.
How would you respond to a text like Deuteronomy 14:22-29 where the people of God are commanded to spend their tithe on anything they wanted, including strong drink (that is not the watered down stuff), and were to consume it in a feast before the LORD and share it with their friends?
Doesn’t it sound strange that God would command His Old Testament priests not to drink during their priestly duties, then tell His people to drink up in their worship to God? It sounds strange because it didn’t happen. Shekar (sometimes translated as “strong drink” or even “beer”) was the beverage product of fruit other than grapes. It was produced and preserved about the same way as wine. It could be preserved in an alcoholic or nonalcoholic state. It was, of course, strong drink if made into alcohol, but not a distilled, fortified drink. Robert Young in Young’s Concordance defines shekar… Read more »
David: Were the Israelites teetotalers? Were they commanded to be teetotalers in the Law?
You have to look pretty closely to find a hebrew concordance or dictionary that doesn’t define shekar as an intoxicating drink. I even found anti-alcohol resources that label it as most likely beer or undiluted wine, making it clear that it didn’t mean a distilled beverage.
Every culture that cultivates grain has made and consumed beer and the Israelites were no different. Evidence of this goes back as far as we can reach. (I think beer is foul, by the way).
David,
If that is true then why does Al Mohler say in regards to your argument “That is not a good argument and we ought to be very careful, if we are going to be responsible interpreters of Scripture, not to make that kind of really bad argument. . . . It is exegetically unsustainable (listen to the 7-9 minute mark).”
“And yes, of course, they also had the fermented stuff…undiluted….which could make a person high, or drunk. This is what was called foolish to drink in Proverbs.”
I would like for you to demonstrate the word usage (in Hebrew) that you state here.
I appreciate this discussion. My wife’s grandfather, a member in good standing at an SBC church, made wine for medicinal purposes after the course of his agrarian heritage. My wife still keeps around some vinegary wine for her stomach. She has a weak stomach anyway, but after having her gall bladder out, it’s only been worse. It seems to work better than fabricated medicines. While we’re not hard line about it, and it’s not part of a church covenant, we typically don’t drink. Our church expects full-time ministers, and possibly deacons (I’m not one), to not drink. While not an… Read more »
Greg,
You can not list chapter and verse for historical context. You have to learn that from the writings of the people of that time…Dude, c’mon….the list of all the commentaries and Greek scholars and Hebrew scholars would be too many to write down. I dont have the time for all that….
C’mon.
David
007:
Please take the time and just list 5.
007:
Surely you could copy and paste 5 sources in a matter of minutes if they exist as you claim.
I’m calling your bluff you can not even come up with 5.
David W. is right. Adding water to wine was so common you were considered a barbarian if you drank neat (undiluted) wine. Unfermented wine was mixed with large amounts of water to reconstitute it, and make it drinkable. Fermented wine was mixed with large amounts of water to make it less toxic; and maybe so you could drink more. No one says today, drink my undiluted wine. Why? Because today no one mixes their wine with water. Yet Revelation 14:10 speaks of undiluted wine. Why? Because it was out of the ordinary; wine was commonly mixed with water back then.… Read more »
“David W. is right. Adding water to wine was so common you were considered a barbarian if you drank neat (undiluted) wine. ”
I wouldn’t mind seeing some support for this statement.
Does the Mosaic Law forbid consuming alcohol?
Bill Mac, “It was widely accepted that unrestricted drinking of neat wine would cause madness and death.” -Andrew Dalby, Food in the Ancient World from A to Z. Dalby is a historian, linguist, and author of several books on the ancient world. Andrew Dalby also refers to “the almost universal Greek and Roman habit of drinking wine mixed with water.” Ancient writers refer often to this practice. As noted above, Revelation 14:10 aludes to this. The Bible both directly, and through biblical principles, condemns alcohol and drugs. They did not have a word for alcohol, so they described alcoholic wine… Read more »
Does the Mosaic Law forbid the consumption of beverage alcohol? Regardless of whether they had a word for alcohol, they surely knew what an alcoholic beverage was. Were the Israelites teetotalers (or meant to be)? The Mosaic Law regulated Israelite life down to the finest detail. Where in the Law is the prohibition of beverages containing alcohol? By the way, this: “Adding water to wine was so common you were considered a barbarian if you drank neat (undiluted) wine. ” is nowhere near the same as this: “It was widely accepted that unrestricted drinking of neat wine would cause madness… Read more »
Wine is used in important ceremonies in Judaic worship. It is a very important part of the Passover table.
Interesting that no one is addressing your questions, Bill.
Just to address the quotes you gave: Re: Dalby – The question is: what does “unrestricted” mean? I would say that it cannot be proven (historically, medically, practically, or otherwise) that drinking alcohol in moderation causes madness and death. Perhaps Dalby’s quote was a statement toward the effects of un-moderated drinking, or drinking to excess. The Bible clearly calls drunkenness a sin. So, I can go with that. I would not assume that Dalby’s statement implies abstinence completely. I’m not sure what you are trying to prove with that quote, though. Maybe you could explain further what you believe it… Read more »
David’s argument is not what Mohler and Moore are arguing. I believe Mohler rejected David’s view outright when he said you simply can’t make the text say what some (like David) want it to say in that drinking is a sin.
So….discuss the audio, not your eisegetical formulations.
Jason,
I guess “eisegetical formulations” means anything that YOU dont agree with, or dont like. And, even thought Dr. Mohler and Dr. Moore dont agree with me, or David B, whichever David you’re talking about….does not change the fact of the historical context and the meanings of the Hebrew words concerning the way “wine” is used in the Bible.
Right?
David
David: Have you switched your view? It was my understanding that you took the wisdom view, not the view that alcohol was forbidden. Aren’t Mohler and Moore proponents of the wisdom view (something rabid abstentionists utterly reject)?
You have no idea what I believe on this issue, so how can you make that claim? Don’t assume anything, brother. What I have a problem with is coming to the text with a conclusion already made and then making the text say what you want it to say to support the conclusions made apart from the text. Examples of this would be: – “Jesus turned water into grape juice.” – The convenient, though exegetically untenable position, that all positive mentions of wine refers to grape juice, and all negative references refer to alcoholic wine. I am not endorsing the… Read more »
007:
Some of us are still waiting for a response where you said: “You can not list chapter and verse for historical context. You have to learn that from the writings of the people of that time…Dude, c’mon….the list of all the commentaries and Greek scholars and Hebrew scholars would be too many to write down. I dont have the time for all that….”
You’ve listed none so far, so are you making this up?
Jason,
I’m simply answering arguments others are making on this thread. You give no evidence of my “eisegetical formulations” of Scripture, you just say Dr. Mohler disagrees with my view. That is not exactly exegetical / biblical evidence.
I gave clear Scriptural evidence above, something you have not done.
David R. Brumbelow
You did NOT give clear biblical evidence. You made biblical references and made some assertions, but that is not the same thing. First, I love Adrian Rogers, but he isn’t equivalent with scripture. I appreciate his opinion, but that is all that it is. Second, since the audio is what is supposed to be under discussion, and you haven’t addressed it at all, I will point you to Mohler’s position that you cannot biblically assert that drinking alcohol is sinful. I know there are guys who want to say that, but I think it takes some hermeneutical leaps (like the… Read more »
Of Greeks, Barbarian and diluted wine. Plato wrote: Homosexuality is regarded as shameful by barbarians and by those who live under despotic governments just as philosophy is regarded as shameful by them, because it is apparently not in the interest of such rulers to have great ideas engendered in their subjects, or powerful friendships or passionate love-all of which homosexuality is particularly apt to produce. While the Ancient Greeks may have called those who drink undiluted wine “Barbarians” just look at what they did with the diluted wine. Another common form of homosexuality in classical Greece originated in the symposion,… Read more »
“I want to go back to the idea that really was at the core of the best impulse for total abstinence, and that is to remove the snare. What would it say for us to invite persons into such a snare. I just cannot imagine that that could be something for which we would be blameless” (beginning 14:45). One of the ways in which the faculty of SBTS have demonstrated the falsehood of other worldviews, particularly postmodernism at their “Give Me an Answer Conference,” has been to demonstrate that certain views cannot be held consistently. I am thankful for those… Read more »
The Christian position on alcohol is that drunkenness is sin. We don’t have any other commands against alcohol in Scripture. If we apply Paul’s advice about matters of conscience, that sheds light on how we should treat alcohol within the church.
But here’s the quandary: people either proclaim their liberty to drink or their responsiblity not to drink; everyone is forced into one or the other position. Why don’t we simply leave the issue to people’s conscience as Paul did? And remind ourselves that that’s where it belongs?
Paul preached against making circumcision necessary for the Christian faith, and yet circumcised Timothy in order to make his witness amongst Jews better. In the case of alcohol, the only time Christians should “surrender their rights” on this issue is when they are ministering to alcoholics. They should not “surrender their rights” on this issue when confronted by Christians who believe that drinking alcohol is wrong. These people are not in line with clear scriptural teaching and can be moved into the “circumcision party” that Paul so vigorously attacks in Galatians. Adding to the Bible is wrong and needs to… Read more »
Nicely put. For the past century or two, America has had a love-hate relationship with alcohol that manifests in church practice.
But I don’t think we should relate this to Mohler, since he really doesn’t deserve that much attention. Far better Christian thinkers and writers exist out there. His lectures on alcohol are terribly unconvincing because his positon is not scripturally based. It’s pragmatic: the church needs to stand in solidarity with alcoholics everywhere by not drinking. It sounds like a great sentiment or a noble ideal from a human standpoint. It’s not the decision we reach from a careful and nuanced reading of Scripture, though. Al did it again….he Mohlerized.