..and I’m guessing that most of my ministerial colleagues will be loath to make such an admission as well.
There is a perfectly good reason for such an attitude: No pastor wishes to be seen as damaged goods.
I have admitted to being “a bit tired” and did so many times over the past couple of years when people in my church would ask why I am retiring at such a young (er, 62, young?) age. A feeling of mild ministerial fatigue was for me merely one of the Lord’s signposts that my ministry at the church I had served for almost 15 years was drawing to a close – a normal progression.
I will also admit to being attuned to articles on clergy burnout and depression partly because I have been around some colleagues who appeared to be significantly fatigued, er, burned out.
The Baptist Standard carried story out of Baylor University on the subject.
The usual statistics are trotted out:
• 90 percent of pastors report working between 55 to 75 hours a week.
• 90 percent feel inadequately trained to cope with the ministry demands.
• 50 percent feel unable to meet the demands of the job.
• 55 percent say they are discouraged.
• 70 percent do not have someone they consider a close friend.
• 80 percent believe pastoral ministry has affected their families in a negative way.
I do not deny the problem here. I have come to believe that after some years of service or after leading a church through a difficult phase of ministry that a wise congregation will work out some form of sabbatical, even if it is just a short stretch out of the pulpit. A month off would be reasonable.
After 30 years of pastoring where I had just a couple of occasions where I was out of the pulpit for two consecutive Sundays, I confess that an extended stretch away from routine pastoral responsibilities brought some benefits. Today, I would be less stringent about Sundays out of the pulpit that I have been over past decades.
Our seminaries, those ministerial seed beds do well to delve into this area, although when I read that the source for the story linked above shared a tale of clergy burnout after a year-and-a-half in her early twenties, well, there is a bit of a disconnect. Perhaps the addition of a focus on ministers in a different stage would have added to the article.
Plodder’s top candidate of an issue related to clergy depression and burnout:Ministers must stop being so mulish and stubborn and display a demeanor where honest conversations are possible with fellow ministers and church leaders. If this issue is not resolved, well, see the photo above.
I recognize that this is a tall order, the Mighty Man of God admitting some degree of humanity, but I highly recommend it.
- William Thornton blogs at the SBC Plodder.
From my personal experience, I would strongly emphasize the vital importance of what you say 70% of pastors say they don’t have .. a close friend. Feedback from more than one pastor I’ve known strongly supports the importance of that, and I frankly don’t know why that is the case..
It certainly shouldn’t be. But I suppose it varies case-by-case. But I would, from the layman’s perspective, blame it on laymen who hold too high or “different” a view of pastors, and are this afraid to speak the truth in candid and honest love, or even think through, logically, what really should be expected of their pastor.
And, within my experience, since discipleship has been generally lacking in the SBC churches with which I’m familiar, I don’t guess that’s surprising.
I hasten to add this should include regular time spent together, not for the friend to fire at the pastor, but quite the opposite. Which mandates a really good friendship. I’ve been blessed to have a couple of those.
Pope Dave,
Every thing you’ve said is so true, I have been so burned out that I would say, “oh no,” not another Sunday, I have gotten to the point that I actually dreaded Sundays, (The Lords day). I didn’t even want to be around God’s people. I know what it is like not to have anyone to talk to. Feelings like this are hard to bare.
Stress and burnout can and will cause disease, not just spiritual but actually cause physical, and mental disease. There should be manditory time off for every pastor, called Self Help. We are much too proud and stubborn. We will pay for it, one way or the other.
A pastor should have a Manditory 6 weeks off per year, (paid).
I have been told by my members that they wish they had it together like me. I would think to myself, If you only knew.
Jess, the author of this post is William Thornton, not me. It is a good post and worthy of discussion, but we must give credit where credit is due.
“A pastor should have a Manditory 6 weeks off per year, (paid).”
One could wish that were so! But we make do with a third of that.
Pope Dave,
I can’t help but feel sorry for these young preachers fresh out of school,
thinking they have all the snswers, with all knowledge and faith. They sure are in for a rude awakening. I don’t mind you leaving your church, as long as you don’t leave SBC voices.
William Thornton, excellent post.
William. You make some excellent points that all pastors should consider.
I do wonder if there might be a faulty premise lying under parts.
One could conclude that ministry is much harder than other professions and deserves special considerations. I understand that argument but I think it could be challenged.
My work model was my Dad not some CEO. He never had a sabbatical. He worked his vacations for extra pay to provide for the family. He worked sick and injured. He took extra shifts.
I never heard him use the word “burn-out”
He was a “burning bush” — burning but never burning out.
Again. I think this is a helpful discussion.
Frank L,
What world are you living in, It can’t be this one. Pastoring will drive one crazy, make one sick, mentally and physically. Pastors should have hazard
pay.
All the sleepless nights worrying and praying, trying to find the best solution to problems. Tending to and worrying about the sick as well as trying to keep up with our studies. When the church wants an alligator sermon while the pastor is on a hummingbirds salary. Not to mention all the visiting a pastor has to do. Don’t froget the three AM phone calls when the pastor has to get out of bed and leave to minister to someone.
Frank, I don’t know what kind of relationship you have with your church, but in this world, it’s a hard job.
“””What world are you living in, It can’t be this one”””
The kind where some people are just whinny and insulting and should find some other vocation rather than being a pastor.
Also, I lived in a world where working 120 hours plus for a three month period was required to accomplish a mission. That’s a world less than 1% of our population have ever worked in.
“”it’s a hard job.””
I agree . . . as long as it is just a “job,” it’s way too hard for any man.””
Frank L.
Pastoring a church is a whole different type of stress, I’ve worked 16 hrs. in a roll many times in a coal mine, I was a roof bolter operator and the stress was nothing compared to being in an emergency room watching the doctors trying to revive a little six year old girl who fell out a second story window onto concrete. Then having to go with the doctor and tell the family she didn’t make it.
You said it was just a job, I sharply disagree with you, If you love Gods people and love people in general it is not just a job, It’s your life.
Frank L. you say you are a pastor, but you talk like you have never pastored a church. How can you be so uncareing. Just a job! get real.
A piece of me died on the concrete that day. Every Sunday morning, she would say, good morning Bro. Jess.
“””You said it was just a job,”””
No, that’s what YOU said. I disagreed.
I wonder if you even read your own posts sometimes. You said,
“”Frank, I don’t know what kind of relationship you have with your church, but in this world, it’s a HARD JOB.”‘ (Emphasis added).
You seem to delight in attacking and belittling me. The problem is: I don’t care what you think — and, that’s when I can even decipher what it is you are saying. Making me smaller does not make you any bigger.
I can guarantee you that I have not only been in the hospital while a doctors are trying to revive a child, but I was in the room when it was my child they were trying (unsuccessfully) to revive.
I would be willing to bet that I could match you story for story in all the gory details from having the blood of a suicide victim (a personal friend) on my hands to holding the hand of another friend as his son died at an accident scene. I’ve also had to comfort a family as they watched Drs. try to save the life of a 40 years old alcoholic who was bleeding out of every orifice in his body. That man was my little brother.
You have several times accused me of “not caring.” I’ve been in continuous ministry for 36 years and I have no plan to retire — retread perhaps, but never retire.
I get very tired many, many days. I get discouraged often. I’ve had a major heart-attack. Ministry has extracted a heavy toll on my family. I refuse to give-in to the term, “burn-out.”
I understand how William is using that term. My take on it is more on “how to describe it and how to avoid succumbing to it.” I personally take the route — I confess burn-out as the sin of self-pity.
That may not be how others deal with it, and I respect that. But when I look at Elijah under the broom tree I notice God did NOT say, “You are working way too hard and don’t have enough friends. Take a Sabbatical.”
“””You said it was just a job,”””
No, that’s what YOU said. I disagreed.
I wonder if you even read your own posts sometimes. You said,
“”Frank, I don’t know what kind of relationship you have with your church, but in this world, it’s a hard JOB.”‘ (Emphasis added).
You seem to delight in attacking and belittling me. The problem is: I don’t care what you think — and, that’s when I can even decipher what it is you are saying. Making me smaller does not make you any bigger.
I can guarantee you that I have not only been in the hospital while a doctors are trying to revive a child, but I was in the room when it was my child they were trying (unsuccessfully) to revive.
I would be willing to bet that I could match you story for story in all the gory details from having the blood of a suicide victim (a personal friend) on my hands to holding the hand of another friend’s son as his son died at an accident scene. I’ve also had to comfort a family as they watched Drs. try to save the life of a 40 years old alcoholic who was bleeding out of every orifice in his body. That man was my little brother.
You have several times accused me of “not caring.” I’ve been in continuous ministry for 36 years and I have no plan to retire — retread perhaps, but never retire.
I get very tired many, many days. I get discouraged often. I’ve had a major heart-attack. Ministry has extracted a heavy toll on my family. I refuse to give-in to the term, “burn-out.”
I understand how William is using that term. My take on it is more on “how to describe it and how to avoid succumbing to it.” I personally take the route — I confess burn-out as the sin of self-pity.
That may not be how others deal with it, and I respect that. But when I look at Elijah under the broom tree I notice God did NOT say, “You are working way too hard and don’t have enough friends. Take a Sabbatical.”
Frank L.
Go back and look what you said to william about faulty premise lying under parts, and one could conclude pastoring is harder than other professions, I rest my case. If pastoring is just a profession I would not recommend it to anyone. It is a calling from God.
Jess,
As I said, I often find trying to sort out your thoughts like trying to untwist and extension cord.
Both experiences are quite frustrating.
You simply make me say something I’ve never said and then you take exception to it. You also completely ignore your own words even when I cut and paste them into my post.
I guess if you have no evidence, the only thing you can do is “rest your case.” I might point out that, “resting one’s case” is not the same as “winning one’s case.”
the wisdom of an experienced older pastor is something the Church can make good use of . . .
our culture prizes ‘youth’ and ‘stamina’ when instead, it desperately needs ‘wisdom’ and ‘experience’
when the time comes in the life of a senior pastor, it is a Christian tradition for some assistants to come AND LEARN by helping the senior pastor, as it was done in the early Church, the younger studying at the feet of the older
great respect needs to be given to older pastors who have served God faithfully over many years . . . and part of that respect is finding for them a place where they can still offer their gifts to the Church in meaningful ways . . . there is no real ‘retirement’ for those who have been called to the ministry, is there?
While I appreciate the comments, articles on this subject almost always generate two types of responses that may not be helpful.
First, the back-in-the-day comment. I agree wholeheartedly with Frank about our predecessors having many things harder than we do. Many of my more distant predecessors at the churches I have served put in more hours, lived in pastoriums, endured more claims on their families, particularly the pastor’s wife, than I did. I heard the same gripes when I was in the army 40 years ago about how easy we had it and how hard the old dudes had it.
This fails to recognize some changes in the pastoral ministry and attitudes toward clergy. Go look them up. We can discuss it later.
The second type focuses on how unique and difficult the pastorate is. I would caution any of my colleagues from demanding six weeks of vacation because of their uniquely stressful job as pastor. Do this and you immediately lose credibility with your congregation, many of whom work longer, harder, and with less pay and benefits that you do.
There is no profit in claiming that a pastor deserves more because of his especially arduous tasks and responsibilities. Laypeople see through this, probably because they have heard it so often. Late night calls, crisis calls, and a wide range of routine demands on the pastor’s time are part of the job. The pastor must learn to manage these. Show me a pastor who declaims loudly about unique stressors and I can probably show you a pastor who is not a good manager of his time and who has not learned some of the simple management tools that would help him.
The main change in my attitude and one that I attempted to express in my piece is that there are occasions when the pastor may need a more extended period of rest or freedom from routine responsibilities. Recognizing this is the pastor’s job, laypeople don’t just offer sabbaticals out of the blue, and he can help himself by laying some groundwork, by having some honest conversations with trusted church leaders or by bouncing his feelings off of a trusted ministerial colleague.
William,
Good point on the need for “time management.”
That is an absolute essential skill in ministry. You have to “anticipate” those late night calls and make sure you have some degree of margin in your life.
It is not easy. Ministry is a unique vocation in many ways. I just don’t think it is as “uniquely difficult” as I’ve seen in discussions regarding ministry.
I don’t purport to have any easy answers. As I said, this is an important discussion.
I will say that now that I am an “older” minister and fairly established in my present ministry, I have some freedoms I did not have in earlier pastorate.
I think I have some “wisdom” I did not possess, also.
William Thornton,
I’m not saying a Pastor should demand anything, I’m saying they deserve anything good they can get because of the job. They certainly deserve more than they are getting right now.
You said a pastor must learn to manage, you cannot manage something that you don’t know is going to happen.
Pastoring is not just a job, and it never will be. It’s a life long commitment to Jesus Christ, and to serve his people.
“”because of the job.””
“” not just a job,””
If I’m not mistaken that is twice in one post you refer to ministry as a “job.”
That is 200% more times than I did in three posts.
PS — I’d also like to go on record in response to what I “deserve” as a pastor.
Mark 10:30: “persecutions.” I don’t deserve anything “good.” I deserve death, hell, suffering, and eternal separation from God.
What I get is “a hundred times more blessing.”
Frank L.
I guess we had better cool it. Dave may get on here all grumpy and mean.
You are right about one thing, I do need to get out of pastoring.
Tomorrow is my last two services as pastor of the church. Thank God!
I am burned out, big time. I’m looking forward to some serious fishing.
“”You are right about one thing, I do need to get out of pastoring. “”
That explains a lot.
PS — Hope the fishin’ is good 🙂
Hey Willian Thorton and all you Sports Fans out there,
Happy Days are here again! The SABANATION is Back!!!
The DUCK NATION got squacked, sacked, smacked by the STANFORD CARDINAL NATION. Red birds are faster on the ground than Ducks.
The BAYLOR BEAR NATION has brought joy to the T’Town CRIMSON TIDE by ripping the KANSAS STATE WILDCAT NATION apart 52-24.
Yes children, the CRIMSON ELEPHANT is back in their rightful position to take another National Championship.
Of course, they have to get by the BULLDOG NATION of Georgia, another power in the mighty SEC.
All you folks who were thinking the SEC was out of the race, cry your hearts out.
Oh yeah, all you FIGHTING IRISH fans out there…..forget about it. The SEC is back in the big chair again.
ROLL TIDE ROLL!!!
Hi CB,
thank God football season cheers everyone up, even you, CB
. . . especially you!
But I can’t let this pass:
“Oh yeah, all you FIGHTING IRISH fans out there…..forget about it. The SEC is back in the big chair again. ”
I am going to call up your Irish spirit, CB, so enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45P6Q2oe_I4&feature=related
SEC CB–your assessment of the Cardinals/Duck game is woefully lacking in substance and truth. The Ducks, even though they played the worst game of the year, were robbed of the win by a replay referee. The tie was gifted to Stanford on a catch that didn’t happen. The Ducks have been cheated of their rightful place in the Championship by one referee with his head glued to a vide screen. He was wrong.
“Video” not “vide”….
“brothers we are not professionals!”
Professionals or not, we are treated and regarded as such. Of all the different kinds of work that I have done in my life time (back around ’89, while serving as an Industry Education Coordinator, I made a list of “jobs”…some 134), I consider ministry the most challenging, difficult, and sometimes frustrating. Having done some extreme forms of employment, packer in a meat cooler to farm work of an intense nature, factory work, ditto, I must say, the mental and emotional toil of the ministry is about as bad as it gets. Just consider how much a person puts into the conducting of a service where he preachers a 30-40 minute message. A minister told me back in the ’60s that a study was made by the doctors and they found a one hour service with a sermon was equivalent to about 7 hours on an assembly line. Later a pastor friend told me of his friend who had been a medical doctor before becoming a minister and that he knew about the study to which I had referred. A one hour service with a 30-40 minute sermon was the equivalent of about 7 hours on an assembly line. This does not include the study and preparation for the service or the various other forms of ministry such as counseling, funerals, administration, and teaching. A love for ministry will offset the problem of burnout, but one has to prepare for the debilitating effects. Our son takes breaks. I had warned him about the burnout issues and so far seems to be doing alright. I do know that in my last pastorate, I was under so much stress that I was like a person who was punch drunk at the end. Just tired and exhausted. That did not end my love for the ministry of the word or anything like that, but, like every one else, I had to accept my limitations. We are not supermen, and God does not promise to deliver us everytime. sometimes He allows or decrees that we shall fail (you choose the version that best suits your theology though it might surprise you to learn that the calvinistic literature leans a lot more to permission than to decree on this issue), usually with a view to something further down the road beyond our sight. Change is a part of life, and change in ministry is a… Read more »
Doc, please, give up that tired old chesnut that preaching a 30 minute sermon is the equivalent of a day’s labor.
Nonsycophantic laypeople, rightly, aren’t going to buy it.
Right, William Thorton.
However, I have noticed a new kind tiredness among many pastors that I know that was not there in years past. I can’t really identify its source other than maybe because we are now in post-modernity. Maybe the problem is that Bible Colleges and seminaries are still using a methodology of training pastors that was suited to ministry during modernity. That is just a guess on my part, but I do see a difference in the zeal that many pastors have in this present culture than in the past.
There is an inherent stressor in pastoral ministries that is not in other vocations. Pastor seek to present the truth of the gospel to creatures who are inherently alien to their Creator. The pastor is also constantly working to lead those who are no longer aliens to God after having been converted to not to live like aliens.
He does this while fighting the same temptation to again live like an alien himself.
However, pastors have the greatest resource to finish well — Christ alone.
William,
I agree with you 100% because I think I know what you mean.
Yet, some people think that a “30 minute” sermon once a week is the sum total of the pastor’s preaching responsibilities.
I know you realize there is also much prayer and much reading and much study — all is work.
And . . . I do have to say I work up a pretty good appetite preaching. After the last song they clear the stage and make room for my rather spirited approach to the task.
Brother Thornton: I don’t give a flip what some folks say. I was going by some who had read the report. That’s all.
Show me the data, the research. The assertion is one I have heard regularly, always from other pastors. Laypeople who work literal eight, twelve, sixteen hour days do not buy this and see through the ploy. We lose credibility as a result.
Work hard. Preach faithfully. No pastor need rely on anything like this to justify taking a nap on Sunday afternoon, day (or two) off, or a genuine vacation.
Brother Thornton: The fellows from whom I get information, I generally find to be reliable.I did go looking for the info., but the study was done by someone back inthe fifties or early sixties. The first fellow who told me was the editor of a religious paper who said he had read it. That was in the sixties. Then within the last 10 years, actually, during the time from 2004-2011, a fellow minister who died in 2011, a fighter pilot from WWII (P-38 Lightning, no less, guarding the bombers from North Africa bombing the oil fields of the Nazis in Rumania, also crash landed doing 150 mph, flew the general over the battlefield in the invasion through Southern France, winner of the DSC), and he told me he had mentioned to his friend, the pastor of the Friendly Ave/ Baptist Church in Greensboro, who had been a Medical Doctor before being called to the ministry and who also served as President of the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina. His friend told him that he had seen the study and had read it. Now I am no medical expert, but I sure don’t feel like telling a fellow who was a hero from WWII (besides being a fellow believer in Sovereign Grace and having a full-fledged duplicate of everything in Spurgeon’s library and whose sister just republished his edition of one of Spurgeon’s rare publications (I think it was from the penny pulpit series), and the Doctor who was President of our State Convention was well-known as a man of integrity (both men were, in fact). I am not well-equipped to do research in Medical areas, but if you really press, I guess I can get some friends who are to do the research, and I have no doubt that the sources from which I got my information were reliable. I should add, I am trained to do research in History, Theology, and Counseling literature (including psychological, psychotherapeutic, etc). I have also done research for years on end, six years in church history alone, not counting many more years of reading, etc.(but just the actually note taking), two years of research on I Cors. 13, and many other areas. In addition, I taught Senior Papers at Morehead State University, and then American History for 2 years at South Carolina State, and Political Science at Richmond Community College for 2 quarters,… Read more »
“”(P-38 Lightning, no less, guarding the bombers from North Africa bombing the oil fields of the Nazis in Rumania, also crash landed doing 150 mph, flew the general over the battlefield in the invasion through Southern France, winner of the DSC), “”
And . . . the award for the Longest Parenthetical Apposition in a blog post goes to — the envelope please,
Dr. J ! Crowd roars. Dr. J moves confidently to the podium to collect his award.
Thanks, Frank L., but no thanks.
Dr. J.–He asked for proof. Evidence. As learned as you like to remind us all that you are, I’m sure that you’re acquainted with that word. All you have is hearsay. Show us the study. Produce it. Make it known. That will go far to quiet the dissenting voices to your so-called “study.” Give us the facts, man. Your personal background means nothing if you can’t produce the facts.
Dale, I simply do not wish to do the work involved. I just looked at my sources for the wherewithal of the story and found them trustworthy and reliable. I do not have the time to track down every story, every illustration, and neither does William Thornton nor any one else. Besides, my hours these days is spent looking after an ailing spouse. However, I might just might see if I can get some folks to locate that info. for me. Be careful in taking a demanding side, Dale; it can get you in trouble.
There is an old saying that “the devil is in the details.” I believe that God is in the details. The devil is in the chaos that ensues when we ignore the details.
Sorry sir, I don’t think that I’m being “demanding.” I’m saying we need to be “accountable” for what we quote. That holds us to a level of honesty and integrity that is lacking in so many areas of life. If you are going to state something as fact and hold to it as fact simply because you trust your sources, then you are the one who will be getting into trouble. I would venture to say that you would never accept hearsay as a viable source for a research paper or dissertation. I’m simply holding up a standard for veracity. In my experience, you either track down every story and illustration or you don’t use it. Otherwise, you just say, “I’ve heard someone say…..” I think it would do all of us commenters good to uphold such a standard.
I’m sorry to hear of your wife’s illness. I pray that she, and you, will be strengthened in these days.
Dale: I think I carefully pointed to my sources of hearsay for the item under consideration. Three sources separated by 45 years, one an editor who had no bone to pick simply told me about the medical report which he said he ahd read. Second, the veteran of WWII telling me what his friend, the former medical doctor and pastor and President of our state convention had said. I consider the sources. I can’t look up every thing. I do try to be careful. Besides, William and you have both overlooked your best critique, namely the fact that the report was so long ago; it needs a more up-to-date study to see, if it was true then, if it still holds up to a contemporary study, etc. Much as I would like to delve into the matter (and I am a researcher at heart, willing to spend the hours, etc., to find out the truth), I simply don’t have the time. You folks need to be a little more aware that there a variety of ages, experiences, education, etc., in the folks writing on this blog in response to what has been written. I suggest you and William both look up the study, if it can be located, make a study of it, write a thesis on it, and submit it for a Doctor of Science degree at the University of South Africa.
To clarify,Dr. J., I really have no personal bone to pick with you. My point is that anecdotal research is no research at all. You know that. You constantly cite your numerous degrees, and, from your comments, I have no doubt that your education is solid and your knowledge is as wide as it is deep. I assure you that I’m not attacking you personally. I apologize for coming across in a way that has become antagonistic. In no way did I intend that. I do have a problem when someone says that “so-and-so said so, so that makes it so.” Sorry, but that just doesn’t work. It amazes me that when I call for a little honesty on it that you take it as an issue between the two of us. For further clarification: I am bi-vocational. I have worked hard, long hours physically, mentally, and spiritually. I know what it is to work for hours in the searing heat of the sun. I’ve sat on open equipment in sub-zero weather. I’ve worked in wind and rain. Work is not a foreign concept to me. Currently, I work 10-12 hour days in a massive machine shop. All to make ends meet so that I can fulfill God’s calling in my life. My calling is as a bi-vocational pastor to a tiny church in the middle of nowhere in North Central Texas. As a pastor I’ve done all the things that most pastors do. Have I gone through burnout? Yes. 20 years ago. I had to come to terms with some very difficult issues in my own life. I was running the ministerial rat race. I learned that the only thing you ever beat in a rat race is another rat. I got some rest. I had a great church family who supported and encouraged me. My own family stood with me. My doctor and a great Christian counselor helped immeasurably. I came through it a different person and a better pastor. I also became a better husband and father. A major component in my own recovery was the institution of a sabbatical. It was a God-send for me. When I first experienced the burnout, I was given a month off with pay. I took the time to work on myself, my family, and my relationship to God. 5 years later, I took another sabbatical. This time it was to… Read more »
Actually, your story of sabbaticals expresses what I have advocated here.
Just proves, William and Dale and CB and Jess and Frank L. and Chris and whoever else are all on the same wave length. Soon we shall be singing in harmony. Now I know I’m going to be sick :(:(:( :):):)
Sorry that it got lost in all the hooplah. I appreciate your insight and work on behalf of pastors.
“”only thing you ever beat in a rat race is another rat.””
Scratching my head . . . is he calling me a “rat?” 🙂
I chuckled, Frank……:-)
FrankL. I am under the impression that he was referring to me. If so, I will bite him like the rat that bit me in 1944-45.
My “rat” comment is just one of my little sayings. Not directed at anyone in particular, and certainly not you specifically.
You’re the one who’s always bringing up your background and education, so I thought I’d share mine with you. I’m not sure how the citation of degrees helps any topic along, but you’re free to deal with your own feelings of inadequacy as you wish. I may be educated beyond my capacity, but I’m glad I have it and I worked hard to get it. I’m better for it, but I don’t feel the need to spend a lot of time talking about it.
While I’ve faced difficulty, stress, and even depression, I would never call it PTSD. I was simply dealing with the effects of this fallen world and my own inability to handle it properly. We all have our own stories, and I’ll stick with mine.
The only church I was ever fired from was led by a tyrannical pastor who had delusions of his own grandeur and self-importance. I didn’t last two months because I stood up to him on some things. I was glad when he fired me. So I really don’t know about the pain of being fired from a church.
Whatever my personality and performance issues may be, I’d remind you that we’re interacting on a blog post here. We don’t know one another, and probably never will. I’m not as tough as you think I am, I assure you.
I do pray that truth and grace will be seen in your friend’s situation. May God give peace and may His people submit to Christlikeness.
If I have offended anyone on this blog, I apologize. I had thought it had migrated to a kind of jocularity and was seeking to move in that direction myself. Please forgive.
As you will note in a remark to Jess, Dale, I mentioned that I cite those degrees, when I am feeling less than adequate which these days is most of the time. Most Baptist prechers these days are educated beyond their capacity…I surely am, too. I knew all along that you were human underneath that hard exterior as is Frank L. and CB. Only Jess is hard all the way through from loading 16 tons. No one, however, can hold a candle to Dave, but I forget what it is he is so tough about…unless it is that he cracks the whip here.
Seriously, Dale, I feel deeply for you and Frank both. I know that when I was fired from my last church, I was so tired I could not feel anything (though I cried for a week along with my wife). I suspect all three of us are suffering from PTSD which has decidedly negative effects on one’s personality and performance. Others might have to undergo such suffering, but I pray that they will not. I also request prayer for a friend in the ministry and practically his whole state convention as they are getting involved in a set-to. I can’t say any more, but make it a matter of serious requests of God through our Lord Jesus Christ for grace to resolve the issues whatever they are.
Dr. J,
Let me assure you that in the suffering business as it relates to forced termination — I can top your story.
You seem to think I think something I don’t think nor have I ever thought about thinking. At least that’s what I think.
Frank L. I would not dream of trying to top your story; it would be a losing proposition. I might not be right bright at times, but i hope I have good enough sense to not take on a supreme egotist when he is in full flight of oratory. I bow to your superiority.
Dr j. You made about four references to myself and others never experiencing the kind of suffering you have experienced.
I find that condescending.
I’ll just bow out trying to converse with you.
Wow! Frank L. That’s the first time I ever got my head so low that it would go under a snake’s belly, and you accuse me of Pride. I resemble that remark.
As pastors we experience a phenomena that not many in the professional rank experience. Dr. Johnny Hunt calls it the 24 hour crises mode. A professional electrician at the end of his day understands he did all he could do. He is satisfied. So it is with most people in the work force. The pastor will never feel he has prayed enough, studied enough, mastered the Word of God, etc… He must learn to put his head on his pillow knowing he has not done all that needs to be done. You will learn to live with this or you will not make it to the end.
Johnny Hunt, of my faves, is not in 24hr crisis mode in the sam way most ofus are. He has a phalanx of associates who handle the crises.
I have been in such 24hr crisis mode for decades. There aren’t many such events and claiming special status for that reason is questionable, but I would be curious about how many genuine crises the average pastor faces annually.
William, the 24 hour crises mode that I speak of has nothing to do with crises a pastor has to handle such as suicide attempts. It is the simple fact you never finish! Have you prayed enough? No. Have you mastered the Bible? No. Have you won all to Christ? No. Are all problems in your church resolved? No. Most all other people can lay their heads on their pillows at night and say I did all that I needed to do today. A train engineer may say, I engineered my train for 150 miles, I completed my task, there was nothing more to do. The pastor goes to bed saying, I have not done enough. We must learn to deal with that and it is pretty unique.
Dean, you are switching concerns on me here. What you describe immediately above is not crisis ministry but routine ministry.
It is possible to learn how to be satisfied in serving Christ. I say this not as chastisement but in concern that the end of an attitude like the one you expressed has to be crashing and burning.
Most long term pastors learn this at some stage, often after painful recognition that the alternative will destroy them.
William, what I describe above is the exact same idea I shared in my first comment. I quoted Johnny Hunt. He describes the pastor as living in a crises mode for he can never complete all his tasks. I do not see crashing and burning as the only out come of ministry. You must learn to cope with the fact your job is not complete. I suggest a bank teller never has to cope with such stress. I don’t believe this merits special status but it is real. I suspect even a school teacher gives little thought to students during the summer. The school year is complete. Pastors have no luxury.
I apologize for the complete butchery of this comment and blame it on the autocomplete feature of my blessed Ipad. What a mess.
Dean,
I think you state the matter well.
I would say that the big difference with being a pastor, and everything else, is that we deal with “eternal” matters. Eternity never ends and so a person who falls into eternity without Christ will never end his or her suffering.
That “eternal” element is what keeps me up at night and down on my knees throughout the day.
I also am not asking for or suggesting any “special consideration.” I count it a privilege to suffer in this way for the cause of Christ.
Well, we digress, but the concept of the job of pastor as being a high calling is manifestly true; however, in my view those who seek to express this high calling in terms of job responsibilities, stress, and suffering generally come across to laypeople as self-serving.
Forgive me, but I surmise that the reason this is done (and in any discussion of compensation, job stresses, and the like we quickly come to this) might be (a) to frame the pastor as high priest (sacerdotalism, anyone?) (b) partly to compensate for the high calling being held in less than high esteem by society, (c) partly to justify whatever compensation level goes with the job, and (d) partly to show our church how hard our job really is.
I think that laypeople, people in the church, and people in the community recognize faithful, selfless labor for the Lord when they see it expressed by a pastor. The pastor doesn’t need to justify himself by declaiming about how hard the job is or how stressed he is…but…to go back to my original piece, if the pastor has serious feelings of despair, cannot sleep, finds little motivation for the work, feels trapped, he should find someone knowledgable with whom to talk. It may be a good time for a change in schedule and responsibilities.
No need to be mulish about it. This could be serious.
William,
Feelings of despair, sleeplessness, etc. are common issues.
I don’t necessarily automatically assume this equates to “burn-out.”
Sometimes, the body just need readjusting. This is true of many professions, not just ministry, it seems to me.
Burn-out seems to be a “psychological diagnosis of a spiritual problem.” No amount of rest will cure spiritual burn-out. That’s why I reject the term as a legitimate expression related to the toils of ministry.
I think “burn-out” can be a “cop-out.”
dr. james willingham,
All I have to say to you is AMEN!
William Thornton,
Every time my doctor looks at my blood pressure readings, he says Jess, you’re still pastoring I see. If I have a couple weeks off or go on a vacation my blood pressure is normal, but the first week back at church it rises again.
All you have to do is google what constant stress can do to a person.
Jess Alford,
Have you ever thought that maybe you made a mistake in becoming a pastor in the first place?
That does happen and those who recognize the mistake do well to get out of pastoral ministry. After all, serving as a pastor of a local church is not the only way to serve the Lord and in a local church.
CB,
That one is right down the middle. Home run.
I know I am called because I’ve quit every Monday for the last 36 years, but I’m still at it.
I had a college professor — godly man — say, “Preacher boys (he was transplanted from Texas) if you can quit the ministry, you should.”
It has to be a calling or the stress will be overwhelming.
Having “seen the white light” two years ago last September, I am keenly aware of what stress can do to a body.
Frank L. what your prof said is right on. His was a variation of Spurgeon:
“That hundreds have missed their way, and stumbled against a pulpit is sorrowfully evident from the fruitless ministries and decaying churches which surround us. It is a fearful calamity to a man to miss his calling, and to the church upon whom he imposes himself his mistake involves an affliction of the most grievous kind…(if anyone) could be content to be a newspaper editor, or a grocer, or a farmer, or a doctor, or a lawyer, or a senator, or a king, in the name of heaven and earth let him go his way; he is not the man in whom dwells the Spirit of God in its fullness, for a man so filled with God would utterly weary of any pursuit but that for which his inmost soul pants. If on the other hand, you can say that for all the wealth of both the Indies you could not and dare not espouse any other calling so as to be put aside from preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, then, depend upon it, if other things be equally satisfactory, you have the signs of this apostleship. We must feel that woe is unto us if we preach not the gospel; the Word of God must be unto us as fire in our bones, otherwise, if we undertake the ministry, we shall be unhappy in it, shall be unable to bear the self-denials incident to it, and shall be of little service to those among whom we minister.”
That is why after 12 years I left FT pastoring and do other things now.
PS — One time in college I actually asked one of my professors (I was a double major in religion and chemistry and it was one of my religion professors) if God ever called a person who was a minister back to being a layperson.
All I remember is he quoted some Greek and patted me on my head.
CB, you are absolutely right that there are ways to serve the Lord that do not involve being a pastor (in the formal sense).
I think I’m actually a closet layman. I think that is why I enjoyed my years as a bi-vo so much.
I’m pretty sure I’m going to pastor till I die. I wouldn’t mind dying in mid sentence in the pulpit on Sunday, but that might be a bit hard on the congregation.
Pastoring is who I am. In fact, even my two-years old granddaughter sometimes calls me “Pastor.” For some, it is my first name.
cb scott
If a mistake was made, God would have been the one to have made it.
I did not want to preach or pastor. When God called, I fought it with every fiber of my being to no avail. God won, and I have been pastoring and preaching for 35 years. God doesn’t make mistakes.
cb, I felt as though I had no choice in the matter. I believe if one can say no to God and walk away they wasn’t called to begin with.
God has always used me in a very unique way. I was always led to the small broken churches that was ready to close the doors. I was at my first church four years, during this four years a member gave me a ten dollar bill, that was all I received for four years service. God blessed me to win many souls to christ during this time. I pastored my next church four years, God blessed me with a fifty dollar a week salary. During this time God saved a lot of folks.It’s been this way for thirty five years.
Churches that no other preacher wanted were the churches that God led me to. When God built them up, I was free to move on.
cb, I could have been fishing or hunting or just doing what I wanted to do, but God wouldn’t let me, he has always had a job for me to do.
I have always been a bi-vocational pastor, and most of the time I would put more into the offering plate than my members.
I don’t see the seminary gradugates, flocking to these type churches.
Most want churches already built up. (you’re welcome).
I’ve just finished my last preaching service at the church I now pastor,
I’m burned out completely. I looking forward to a good rest. The problem is that I’m getting calls from churches that don’t have pastors.
Life goes on.
Best wishes Jess.
Dear Lord I earnestly pray that You would strengthen Jess’s body even as you renew his soul. Amen.
cb Scott,
I suppose what makes matters worse for me is that I am legally blind.
Doctors cannot make glasses for me because the optic nerves are damaged. My lymphoma, and sjogrens makes me weak all the time.
So yes I’m stressed and tired. I’m willing to keep going as long as God leads. I have to read a lot slower than anyone else, my words disappear.
Hang in there Jess. Who knows, you might be in there when all the rest of us are laid by.
I have been licensed to preach since 9-7-58, ordained since 5-20-62, spent about 28 of my fifty years in actual pastoring. Been without a church now for 15 years, also without a regular full time job though I had the education etc. for it. Could not buy or beg a job. As one fellow said who had the wherewithal to know, “Some one did not want you to work or have a church.” All I could round up was temps, short-termed at that, one interim of three mos., and now and then pulpit supplies. There is not a one preaching to day that has a greater desire to preach than I do. For 39 years I have been praying for a Third Great Awakening and I expect to continue until God gives it or I die (D.M. Lloyd-Jones prayed for such a visitation for many years and died without seeing it…so I guess I am not too good to have the same happen to me, especially being aware of the fact that we are likely to wind up in concentration camps, euphemistically called mental treatment facilities. No one ever said it would be easy. I think none of us ever dreamed that it would be so hard. But I find myself unmoved by it. Preachers are likley losing their zeal due to the fact that the society is being turned against the Christian Faith and the ministry. Southern Baptists were the church in the South, but this is slowly changing. Allowing our schools and the state schools to be removed from the control of Christians has guaranteed trouble coming down the pike. A Chaplain friend in the navy told me that around 1980, while stationed at San Deigo, he read an interview of the President of the NEA who boasted, “Now that we have gotten the Calvinists out of Education, we can do what we please.” I knew what the fellow was talking about, the Universities of the states were usually dominated by the Presbyterians, especially in the South. Once the faith was eroded away and the decline begin in Presbyterians, along with the increase of the skeptics/evolutionists/Darwinists/etc., the schools departed followed by the public schools…and now we are past the break even point and the only thing that can keep us from a violent civil war or conquest by the world conspirators is a Great Awakening. I had a… Read more »
Prophetic.
The bright side…at least we’ll be a bit more able to tell the brides from the bridesmaids then. You never know. A little suffering and persecution might be what we need at this point.
I pray it happens by other means.
I’m still of the mind that when one member of the Body is so important as to be tasked with most of the work, indeed where a few people do most of the work in a church, we have the wrong paradigm. Gal 6:1-10 should be heeded.
In response to Doc Willingham’s 7:02 comment:
Heck, Doc, I stayed at a Holiday Inn once. That makes us even.
Seriously, I’ve heard the 30 min=8 hours for decades. It is as bogus as the day is long and I would never use it.
However, the anxiety that I get in the two minutes after certain people come forward in church and ask if they might have a word with the congregation is the equivalent of a week’s work. You can look that one up.
I think some 30 minute sermons only seem like 8 hours to the hearers. I’ve never preached a sermon like that, though, so I have no personal knowledge of that as fact. (haha)
William, I think I indicated that I too have heard the story for decades, but I just considered the sources from what I heard it. Never thought it was worth my time to develop the info. as my sources seem to be reliable. And you are riding high now, brother, whereas Jess and Frank L., have found the going hard. This kind of thing varies and changes with age and stage in life and with crises. Look out that it does not come to you, dear brother. And by the way, I rarely ever preached 30 minute sermons, being good for at least 40 minutes, if not an hour. And That was not one sermon on Sunday. During all four of my pastorates, I preached Sunday Mornings, Evenings, and Wednesday Evenings.
You might come on a time of defeat, set-backs, attacks, times when the Lord seems very much absent, leaving you to your own devices. I have known times like Jess and Frank L. as well as times, when the Lord was manifestly present in power. But I grieve over my best times as well as my worst times. My best is not good enough for the Lord Jesus Christ. Do you think your best times are, dear brother?
Note to my friend and fellow commenter here, Dr. Willingham. I appreciate your comments (though I do not buy the one in question). Please don’t take offense at my humorous rejoinder. A sense of humor goes a long way in the pastorate.
William, it is hard to gauge the impact of our statements, whether they are well meant by us or not. Sometimes the best and kindest statement, one with the intent to do the most good, can deliver the most painful blows, while on the other hand an off-the-cuff remark can bring humor, etc. I think you mean well, but we can be disheartening without trying. Jess, in particular, needs encouraging words…along with Frank L., I think.
William Thornton,
I went back and read one of your earlier blogs, you basically say what you are saying here. I’m surprised, just because you didn’t get burned out, doesn’t mean some of the rest of us don’t.
Have you ever went to a church and preached where some of the deacons shot the windows out of the church.
Have you ever been threatened to be beat because you were trying to get drugs out of the church.
Have you ever driven seventeen miles on a winding road on a cold winters morning to build a fire in a pot belly coal stove so everyone else will be warm when they get to church. When people of the church only live two hundred yards from the church.
Have you ever been called the devil, because you wanted gas heat in the same church.
Has your daughter ever been put down, and made fun of simply because she was your daughter.
I sharply disagree with your blogs. You need to realize we pastors are damaged goods. God does draw a strait line with a crooked stick. Please don’t compare all other Pastors to yourself it’s wrong. You do not know what some of the rest of us go through. Some one brought up what the Apostle Paul went through, Please I would have traded places with him any day, than to have to bury two children.
With all respect, I’m not sure what you are trying to accomoplish or the intent of your blogs, but it’s no easy street for some of us pastors. This is why I say we deserve all the benefits we can get. By your blog we are paid too much already.
Try shutting down a bootlegger across the road from your church and you have to sign papers to get it done. Two weeks later the place was finally raided and the sheriff’s dept. didn’t find anything. One of the deputy’s said I guess the pastor tipped them off. William it’s a battle for some of us. Yes I whine sometimes, It makes me feel better.
I’m still willing to keep going.
Acts 9:16 describes the call of God upon Paul; “I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”
Jess Alford,
I do not think pastors who obey God are “damaged goods” as you state here. I think our job is to obey God and leave the consequences of our obedience to Him.
I think pastors who obey God can claim the promises of 1Peter 5:1-4. It is within our calling to suffer. It is not within our calling to quit or become bitter.
Jess Alford, I just do not think your experiences are that much different than a great number of other pastors I have known through the years. And I just cannot call those men “damaged goods.” Nor have I ever heard them call themselves martyrs.
Some of us have gone through things similar to you and in the same region of the country as you.
CB, Paul felt a little damaged, no doubt, seeing that he could be cast down and could even despair of life itself.
cb scott,
My experiences may not be much different than anyone elses, but they are my experiences, that’s the difference.
Jess, either I am a poor writer or you are a poor reader, or some of both.
I wish you well. Feel free to offer specific criticisms on my blog.
William Thornton,
I owe you an apology, I’m sorry. I am a poor reader. I got your blog confused with someone elses or maybe what someone said on this thread. This is what I meant by damaged goods, and I’m pretty damaged.
Well, this does prove what I suspected. William’s better points are beginning to come out.
cb scott,
Please don’t misunderstand what I meant by damaged goods, God only uses that wich is broken for his Glory. Broken bread,broken heart, etc.
I’ll admit I’m damaged goods, I’m broken and only hope I’ll bring Glory to God and lead people to Christ.
All I’m saying is that we pastors deserve all good things that come our way. I’m not saying demand it, by no means. When the preacher sits down with the search committee to discuss his salary, we shouldn’t feel bad because we got a little extra. This is what I mean by deserve.
By rights we’re all deserving of Hell, but Jesus placed us in his glorious Church. We deserve a right to feed our families.
The only kind God uses are broken vessels or so it would seem. Wake up CB. You know that is so.
James,
You know and I know that when Jess Alford used the phrase “damaged goods” he was not in reference to godly sorrow and brokenness before Holy God.
Read again what the man has written. Your empathy for him is due to his age and your personal identification with some of his stories.
James, it is not me who is in need of an awakening on this one. My friend, it is you.
CB: Read Jeremiah and his accusations against God, if you want to see how a minister of God can become damaged goods. I don’t think you have looked far enough into Jess’s situation as you think. Try Jeremiah’s standing in mud up to his chest for months on end, and it will break any man. Study Popov and the others who were put through the wringers of communistic torture and seek how damaged one can be. I had a friend who was tortured for 8 hrs. a day for 2 mos. and 28 days and in the end the Japanese tossed her seemingly lifeless body out on a pile of corpses. Out of about 400 tests in later life, she had 270+ allergies…and yet she won the fellow who supervised her torture to Christ along with Margaret Mitchell, the author of Gone With The Wind. Naw, I ain’t buyin’ your squawks. Besides, damaged goods is all we ever are at our best…in God’s service. And, if we do not understand the theology that produces the Awakenings, in conjunction with the prayers of God’s sorry saints, then we will like Wesley have little perception of what is really involved in a great awakening. Study Isaiah’s remark, Fear not, thou worm, Jacob!
James,
It is not biblical for a pastor who has been faithful in his obedience to God to declare himself “damaged goods.”
If a pastor has been faithful to obey God in suffering, he is assured to be more compatible to the image of Christ.
It ain’t biblical for a prophet to say, “Cursed be the day in which I was born.!”(Jer.20:14) and “provide no atonement for their iniquity.”(Jer.18:23) and “Why is my pain perpetual and my wound incurable which refuses to be healed? Will You surely be to me like an unreliable stream, as waters that fail?”(Jer.15:18), but that prophet, Jeremiah did say them. He sure sounds very damaged to me. Really, Cb, I think your just straining at words which Jess has used. We all receive wounds which will never be healed in this life short of Heaven itself, but such will somehow in God’s plan make for blessings untold, like the pearl wrapped around the stabbing pain of a grain of sand.
dr james willingham
Google-stress contributes to range of cronic diseases, Review shows
This is by science daily.
Thanks for the info. on stress, Jess. You have my prayers in your behalf as does Frank L. and now William T. who is just letting off steam cause he is feeling good right now. I think we might want to see him, when he ain’t feeling good…to get an idea of how human he really is. And since David has not cut in, I suspect he knows William’s better points.
Dr. J,
No use picking fights. I don’t really understand your “cause he is feeling good right now.”
Are you now my doctor?
I happen to have a great compassion for how Jess feels at this point in ministry. Dr. J, contrary to your long, oft-quoted educational pedigree, you do not have a corner on the “truth market.”
I’m only offer my reactions to issues and statements. I’m trying not to make them personal.
I’m fairly certain that if Jess takes exception with anything I say, he will not be shy in challenging me. Jess doesn’t strike me as a “shrinking violet.”
Frank L., obviously I feeling less than adequate, when i quote them.
”
Jess,
To be clear: I am not in any way suggesting that ministry is not “stressful.” Nor, am I arguing that stress is innocuous. I know better on both counts.
I’m suggesting that “stress management” is an individual’s responsibility. Nobody can reduce our stress but our “selves.” If I am being stressed, it is not the congregation’s responsibility to deal with it, but mine.
If that means I have to “back off, step away, or otherwise readjust” then that is a decision I must make.
As long as there are humans serving as pastors, and humans serving as congregations, there will be a need for “stress management.”
there are a variety of ages…correcto
cb scott,
I’ll stank behind my statement that I made about damaged goods, The Apostle Paul, had a thorn in the flesh. Damaged goods, King David said,
My sin is ever before me, damaged goods, I’m telling you that God can only use that which is broken for his Glory. I’m damaged goods, and I wear it boldly. You need to listen to dr james willingham, you can learn something.
stank-stand
“I’ll stank behind my statement. . .”
OK Jess Alford, I will not argue with you.
You probably do “stank behind your statement.” And it probably does not matter if you “stand” or sit down.
cb scott,
I knew that was comming.
I have never seen anyone take football losses as bad as you, in my entire life. I’ve never seen anyone take an election loss as bad as you. You cannot pick a winner in football, or an election. Just to show how wrong you were, the Republicans are now picking Romney to peices. Your football team “stanks”.
Yep, you are right, Jess Alford,
My FOOTBALL NATION “stanks.” And we shall “stank” all the way to another National Championship. That will be 15. Count ’em Jess Alford. Fifteen!!!
You are right. We are “Stankie.”
cb scott
I take offence, to you questioning my calling, That is one thing that has never been questioned. I was surprised that you said such a thing, because one has stress doesn’t mean they are not called. If this was so, none of us were ever are called.
cb scott,
What is this remark you said about age, I can still out work most thirty year olds.
Jess Alford,
Do you mean out work or out complain?
Now. CB, why be so harsh on Jess? Why do folks feel like they must be harsh?
cb scott,
I can out work and out complain most thirty year olds.
cb scott,
You remind me of one of Job’s friends, the youngest one, I believe. Who tried to convince Job that he must to have done something terribly wrong for all the bad things to have happened to him.
Touche, CB, Touche!
Jess,
All joking aside, I think this issue is what contributes greatly to the idea of “ministerial burn-out.”
It is good to be a “hard worker” but it is not the whole package. All the work in the world will never clear out the pastors “in box.” I am 56 years old and have been in the ministry 35 years. I am still learning this lesson.
What I have learned is this: rather than try to out-work thirty year olds, I’ve learned to out-smart them and get them to do the heavy lifting.
Jess. In my view, limited as it is, if one can quit the ministry because of burn out one is: 1) not called and should quit or 2) one is being disobedient (eg Elijah) or 3) one is experiencing bodily challenges and must temporarily seclude to a quiet place (eg. Jesus).
Would you agree these are the three possibilities?
CB was only suggesting a possibility based on your statements.
I don’t think he was stating a fact. Ultimately only you can know which status applies. CB was it appears trying to be supportive. No one wants to pile on you at this difficult time.
Frank L.
I agree with you completely. Except I haven’t quit the ministry, I am just worn out, I believe God is through with me at that particular church. I will be helping out a pastor friend of mine who also has lymphoma and has started his chemo. I have refused any compensation from him or the church, because he is a friend.
I shared earlier that I’m already getting phone calls from churches that don’t have a pastor. I just need to be out from under the responsibility of being a pastor for a little while. God allowed it, and I took it.
Jess,
Then you would say you are in category #2. This is a proper response I believe to avoid category #1.
I would say, that some of your comments could be interpreted (or perhaps misinterpreted) to be indicative of category #1. I think this can be a problem with most pastors.
Burn-out, in my opinion, results from being in category #1 and requires “repentance” not “renewal.” Or, perhaps more accurately may require “repentance along with some renewal.”
My only advice (and since it is free you are getting what you paid for) is to try to couch your words in more a positive light rather than what can lead to a defeatist position.
Who knows what God might yet have planned for your life?
Frank L.
You are crazy, your cheese has slid off the cracker. Your views are not very Bibical. I’m only going to communicate with you
and your little liberal buddy cb on a have to basis.
Jess,
In spite of the many unkind things you have said and the disturbing conclusions you have made, I tried being encouraging and understanding.
It is a bit like “hugging a roll of barbed wire.
Seeing as how I’ve made several references to the Bible, which you never objected to, I will respectfully disagree with your “liberal” label.
By the way, because of my diabetes, I don’t eat crackers. I am a bit sad over loosing my cheese, however.
I do wish you well as you move on through life and help out your friend.
Frank L.
I think I would rather have a roll of barbed wire in the seat of my pants than to have that type support. The Gospel is to build up, not take down.
Jess,
No argument there. Just remember a roll of barbed wire rolls both ways in points in many directions.
Frank L.
The barbed wire comment wasn’t directed at you. It was for your little buddy cb.
dr james willingham
I have noticed that when you have some of these folks backed into a corner with your evidence, they get touche, very touche. I’m not going to mention any names, I’m bigger than that.
PS. It’s cb and Frank
Jess,
Since I was agreeing with you in large part (though you have a very dark, defeatist tone) I really don’t know what corner you backed me into.
Specifically, what point did you “back me in a corner in regard?”
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the “harsh treatment and extreme sacrifices” you have experienced in ministry. I offered an opinion as to how to navigate the sometimes choppy seas of ministry.
I gave two Biblical examples: one of a defeatist attitude (Elijah), and one of a godly attitude (Jesus). I commented that I felt your approach — as you articulated it — was like that of Jesus Who often retired from the press of ministry to renew His relationship with the Father.
Are you saying, I was wrong and Jesus is not the model you are seeking to follow? That would seem, according to the discussion aforementioned that you were following the model of Elijah.
I also pointed out that I felt Elijah (Kings 19) was a biblical example of the phenomenon referred to as “burn-out.” My position is that God went to great lengths to show Elijah that he was over-reacting to his difficulties. Do you disagree with my view on Elijah? Feel free to express your opinion.
No need to throw sand like a two-year old.
And . . . I am highly offended that you would link CB, that nasty liberal, with me. That’s just over the top.
Frank L., I almost flipped out over the last line to Jess, calling CB a nasty liberal. That is about the same as calling Page Patterson a Cecil Sherman liberal (and CB should appreciate that as He was friends with page, I think.
Anyway, your choice of Elijah at the Juniper tree as suffering from burn out is quite apt, and Jess is showing evidence of the same as he takes things wrong when they are meant for help. Jess, you are okay. Just hurting. And when the hurting is healed you will be an even more effective servant than ever before.
CB and Frank are really nice fellows. One can’t but help liking and wanting to help them even thought they don’t want to be helped. They are like the Pilgrim who laid down in the pleasant arbor. It is really hard to get out of such temting places. What is worse is Doubting Castle without the key of promise in the bosom.
A friend suggested I close comments on a post after a day or two. This comment stream would be good evidence that such was a good idea.
Either discuss serious topics folks, or drop it. Really, don’t you guys have something better to do than nitpick and insult.
And, again, yes, I am aware it wasn’t your fault – the other guy started it and you were only answering him back.
OK. I was having too much fun. Sorry.
Our schools are on Thanksgiving Break and I have some “extra” time to kill.
I guess I’ve killed enough.
But, in my defense it was CB who started it.
Dave Miller,
Frank L. is right. I take full responsibility. With willful intent, I did bring trials, tribulations, and multiple persecutions upon Jess Alford, for his constant whining and his degradation of local church pastors by identifying them as “damaged goods.” I also agreed with him in his confession that he “stanks.” I have never met him, but I am most certain that he does….stank, that is.
Therefore, I submit myself to your authority and will, without any form of rebellion, take your chastisement, disciplinary measures, and in general being singled out to be made an example for other willful trespassers against Baptist blog etiquette. I called the dance. I will pay the fiddler.
Punishment (reward, really, but we’ll call it punishment) is you must root exclusively for Mississippi State next season.
Too close to Alabama to work. Make him cheer for Texas A & M.
cb scott,
You shouldn’t be this way, we should stick with the subject of the blog, I’m just trying to be humble. Matter of fact, I take great pride in being humble.
I think I am going to be sick: 🙁
You have to cheer for Georgia in the big game.
Whew! Cb, the odor of sanctity about your humility in this is just simply overwhelming. Watch him, Dave. He’s out to promote that that nation thing about Alabama, never recognizing that they don’t do it alone and Texas has to lay down and play dead for them to win like that.
Dave Miller,
Thank you, I couldn’t have said it better myself, you sure told Frank.
“A friend suggested…”
Dave, you are both a pastor *and* 2nd vp. I didn’t think you were allowed to have friends.
Well, finally, the big cheese showed up. Now the moral tone of this whole blog will improve. It will take his tonic, and shine with a face touched by his skin bracer.
Frank that was a good one, just plain old common sense, wins out every time.
That made me think of a frog jumping contest I entered at the county fair. I hunted a pond that no one had been around in years, and I caught me a winner. That bull frog was sleek, slender, and sudden. I named it, One Long Hop, He looked like Chinese frogs that I had seen in books.
There was about ten of us down on our knees waiting for the whistle.
When the whistle blew, it must have scared One Long Hop. In one leap
he jumped so hard that he landed out there where there wasn’t any marks. Needless to say, I won a Teddy Bear.
Dave Miller,
I know you said to stay on point, I really am, because One Long looked like he was praying all the time. He was not burned out. 🙂
Dave Miller,
I don’t see why you don’t write a book. If you write one about all the crazy stuff some of these guys come up with, I’ll buy the first copy.
I just simply don’t see how your nerves can stand it.
And I will write a review of it.
Frank L.
I thought you thunk that thought, and it made me think. Thank you,
for thinking.
Seriously? Has anyone been thinking on this blog at all?
Dave Miller,
When you have an opportunity pray for my uncle, he worked at a pork and bean factory and got fired. He was putting the beans in the can upside down, and it was giving everyone the hiccups.
The comment thread has gone nuts here.
My comment #142 is for William.
Comment #146 is in reply to Dr. J’s at #138.
I now bow out to enjoy the Thanksgiving holiday. May all of you be blessed! Dr. J, I pray that your wife is feeling better for the holiday, sir.
Thank you Dale, and a Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family and to all on this post. I pray for a special blessing on all of you this Thanksgiving. We are going to our son’s for Thanksgiving. He pastors about a 40 minute drive (not all that far in miles) north of where we live. It is hard to see someone you love declining in health and strength. And she complains not! I am thankful for 43 years of marriage. We got to go out for our anniversary and eat a dinner last week (the anniversary was back on Sept.5th). Funny how we spent our honey moon in NC at Nags Head, and then wound up living most of our lives here. There is a lot of suffering these days, brethren, and the Bible says it is given to us to suffer just as it is to believe (Phil.1:29). I ask God to be with you all and with our nation and that our gratitude would be an aroma in our prayers well-pleasing to our God.