The immigration debate in America has taken a nasty turn of late with Donald Trump’s entry into the GOP Presidential nominating process and his remarks about those coming here illegally from Mexico and other places not being the “best and brightest.” His words seem to be catching on as a nativist movement is growing with Trump himself as the figurehead as he has taken a commanding lead in the polls for the Republican nomination. GOP leaders like Senator Jeff Sessions of Alabama, who leads the Senate Sub Committee on Immigration, are mirroring some of Trump’s rhetoric as there are emerging calls to limit even legalimmigration. The claim is that even bringing in the “best and brightest” from other countries is a detriment to America and American workers. How might Christians see these developments?
These people claim to be “good Americans” who are looking out for the best interests of our country. I understand that a major problem with unfettered immigration is that we have a massive social safety net that is already overburdened and there is a concern about adding people to it who it is feared might not pay sufficiently into the system. And, I also get that there is a fear of foreigners coming here and taking jobs and depressing wages for Americans by providing cheap labor. In addition, there are security concerns that accompany any conversation on immigration that must be addressed.
But, these are all issues that we can solve as Americans working together if we don’t let fear control us. And, many of these fears are actually very much misplaced with the reality being far different from what anti-immigration activists say. Donald Trump has not expressed a traditional American view. In reality, the views that he has expressed are both unAmerican and unChristian. I’ll explain.
In 1883, Emma Lazarus wrote the poem, “The New Colossus” that was eventually etched into a tablet on the Statue of Liberty in 1903. It spoke to the American ethos of liberty and of being a refuge for the poor of the world and for those seeking freedom. The text:
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
Donald Trump is upset because he says that we are not getting the “best and brightest” and all of the really “smart people.” He is not just upset about illegal immigration, but he is very clearly upset about the kind of people that Mexico is sending us as his focus seems to be on that country in particular. He claims to be a great American. He claims to be a conservative. But, the actual American, conservative values are summed up in Emma Lazarus’ words. The real, historic America wants the tired, poor, huddled masses and wretched refuse who recognize that their old country has failed them and they want to come live as free people here. The real, historic, conservative view believes that America is a great place – even a transformative place – where people can come from all over the world, throw off the chains of tyranny and oppression of all kinds, and work hard and make a life for themselves. We are a nation of immigrants and many of our ancestors came here with nothing but dreams for the future – dreams that they fought, worked, and died for to see come true.
The weakness and dearth of imagination from those who do not want immigrants to come here actually reveals an anti-American view. The idea that we have to be so afraid of the future that we must protect what we have and not let others into our country shows that the America that was once great and prosperous and generous has given way, in part, to a greedy, fearful, grasping, small-minded people focused on simply preserving their own “way of life.” That perspective exists in these days, but it is not traditionally American.
Trump says that he wants to make America great again. But, reclaiming the greatness of America means that we must reclaim our courage and optimism about who we are and who we can again one day be. It means that we believe in the values that made our nation great, many of which were etched in bronze on the Statue of Liberty that thousands upon thousands of “huddled masses” and “wretched refuse” saw when they came to America through Ellis Island a hundred years ago to work in our factories and coal mines and to build the nation that we now know and love. “American Values” are important as is making America great again. But, what values? Reclaiming the greatness that Trump is talking about means that we must reclaim the confidence and courage that we once had regarding who we actually are. When I read Emma Lazarus’ poem, I see confidence bordering on arrogance. She was essentially saying, “Send us whoever wants to throw off tyranny and come to these shores! They can join us in this amazing freedom experiment and together we will become the greatest nation the world has ever known!” When I hear Trump speak, I hear fear and weakness and anger and a complete lack of vision and courage. I hear a very small man with a lot of money who seeks to get his way through bluster and intimidation. He has no higher vision. His influence grows among the similarly fearful – those who have exchanged a vision of a great, welcoming Americaascending for a weak, fearful America in decline just hoping to hold on to what it has and what it was. Trump is the kind of leader that appeals to a dying empire, full of bravado and big talk on the surface, but devoid of any real connection with what made the nation great in the first place.
America was great because she was good and because she was filled with people who believed in freedom and better days ahead and they were willing to work hard to make that new future a reality. They were often people of great faith in God and a willingness to work and suffer and persevere to build a life for themselves against great odds. Many of those people were immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Ronald Reagan tapped into this idea with his “Morning in America” campaign. People flocked to him and his leadership because he was optimistic, full of courage, and strong. Trump tries to imitate him, but he doesn’t have the internal moral compass to know what he is actually advocating for or why. To get this bearing, he should listen to and learn from the immigrants who are fighting to come here, not so they can sit and collect government handouts, but so they can work, be free, and make a better life for themselves and their families – real American values.
For the church in America, especially Evangelical Christians, giving into fear and protectionism is also a mistake. We welcome the immigrant not because we believe in the greatness of America but because we believe that God is sovereign and He directs the affairs of nations and moves people across the face of the earth where He wills. We open ourselves up to the stranger and the migrant because we see this as an opportunity to love others sacrificially and to minister Christ to people in need. We do not worry about the future or only want the “best and brightest” because we believe that all people are made in God’s image and bear His likeness and thus, have inherent worth and value – even the poor wretched refuse, whomever they might be. We recognize that Jesus said that the least will be the greatest and that we are to welcome the little children in His name. Trump wants the impressive and “smart” people, but we tell a different story and recognize that the Kingdom of God is open to the humble and the weak – any who call upon Jesus. And, we also recognize that it is Jesus who then helps the weak become strong. Trump, who has said that he has never asked God for forgiveness for anything, represents not only an anti-American view, but also an anti-Christian view of the world and the value of people in God’s sight. We should tell a better story.
A nation has every right and the responsibility to set and enforce its own laws, including its border laws and defense. A nation has the right and responsibility to regulate who comes into it and who doesn’t. It has the right and responsibility to provide security and protection for its people. I believe in all of this and believe that our immigration system needs to be reformed to do all of these things much better so that people can come here legally and in proper order and that those who choose to try and break our laws will not be successful. But, in addressing these issues, if America gives into fear and protectionism and changes it’s very nature in regard to the “tired, poor, huddled masses and wretched refuse,” then what are we really trying to protect? Who will we have become?
We need an immigration system that works and that does not create a black market for cheap labor through anti-business growth visa restrictions. We need a secure border and we need to identify those who should be here and those who should not. We also need a plan for the 11 million people who are here but are undocumented. They are in the shadows and we need to find a way to grant them legal status so they can contribute to society openly. We will not deport them despite the desires of some. Many of them have been here for 5, 10, 15+ years and have no homes to go back to. Many have children who were born here and are American citizens. We will not and should not break up millions of families and see children left behind as their parents are sent away en masse. So, what will we do? How will we solve this dilemma for millions of people? The longer that we let 11 million people live here without legal status, the easier it is for violent criminals in their midst to go unreported because of the overall fear of deportation and lack of trust that exists in immigrant communities. Providing legal status for the otherwise law abiding and productive undocumented immigrants will make it easier for police and federal agents to work together to identify and deport those who are here to engage in violence or anti-social behaviors.
There are many questions that face us in this area, but people like Trump do not have answers for us. They are too afraid of what might happen to open their eyes and see the America that actually is – and that might one day be if we have the courage to build it together. As Emma Lazarus so eloquently said, America is the “Mother of Exiles.” That is who we really are. May that “mighty woman with a torch” shine bright again as a beacon to the whole world of what a free, strong, confident, and prosperous nation really is. And, may the Church in America shine her own light and tell of another, much greater Kingdom to come where all of the exiles, the poor, and the wretched and rejected can find their true home with God forever through faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ.
For more on the church, ethnic diversity, and living in the better way of Jesus, check out my book, When Heaven and Earth Collide: Racism, Southern Evangelicals, and the Better Way of Jesus, NewSouth Books, 2014.
Kinda’ odd that you can only imagine fear as the motivator behind securing our southern border and enforcing the law of the land.
BTW, if the church is to welcome the illegal immigrant (in his crime) because God directs the affairs of nations and movement of people across the globe then shouldn’t we also welcome the enforcement of immigration law (should that happen) for exactly the same reason? In other words, you say we should welcome “whatever” happens. That makes us the ultimate pragmatist…..right?
Using Trump as a foil does make this article anything more than rhetoric. Go back and look at all the insulting negative generalities you heaped on everyone who doesn’t agree with you. We all possess “weakness and dearth of imagination” as you transition us (your imagined antagonist) from being against illegal immigration to being against any sort of immigration to being un-American and finally un-Christian.
I like Trump. I’ve liked him since I read The Art of The Deal back in the 1980s. And yet, I am not afraid. I am not weak nor do I lack imagination. I don’t worry about most anything, and yet I do try to be wise. Imagine the possibility that a person like me can be bright, strong, learned, and still like Trump. Wow!
Will I vote for him? Who knows? I like Rand Paul. Usually by the time the primary gets to Alabama the candidate is already a done deal. I will vote for almost any Republican over almost any Democrat that makes the ticket — even Donald Trump. And ya’ know…it’s not because of fear. I don’t fear Hillary, I just think that I’m a steward of my vote and that I should apply wisdom to my actions.
It is the rhetoric of fear that I am opposing. I wrote several paragraphs about how I am FOR legal immigration and against illegal immigration and how I want to solve the problem. But, Trump and those like him do not solve the problem. They just spread more fear.
I honestly don’t care who you vote for. I am not endorsing a candidate. I don’t know who I support. But, I do know that Trump’s rhetoric on immigration as he wants only the “best and brightest” is not traditionally an American view. For example, I point to the Statue of Liberty.
You can make my post about whatever you want it to be about, I guess. But, I am writing about Trump’s rhetoric on this issue, which is not the traditional American view.
And, yes, I am very much aware of the nativist, xenophobic, and anti-immigration movements that have sprung up throughout American history. It seems that every immigrant group after about two generations doesn’t want the next wave to come in. But, that view has been swatted down again and again as not being who we really are. But, yes, it does exist as a minority perspective throughout American history.
I am not interested in defending Trump’s view but you point to the 1883 poem of Emma Lazarus and the 1903 inscription on Ms Liberty as the Amecian way on immigration. Throughout the industrial revolution Amercia needed workers and invinted all to come to our shores. The population in the 1860’s was 30 million. By 1910 the population was near 110 million. These immigrants fueled the industrial revolution, built railroads and started businesses. To claim America with a population of 350 million today with a stagnent economy and high unemployment has to have the same immigration policy as 150 years ago or is un-Un-American is an inaccurate accusation.
100 percent in agreement, looky here lookey here Dean.
I work daily with the railroads and Dean is spot on
So Dean are you advocating for survival of the fittest? That is unAmerican and unBiblical. The Good Samaritan. Remember that story?
I think we need to have more of a missionaries heart when it comes to others coming here from other countries. Legal or illegal. Most are wanting to be with their families or bring their families over for a better life.
God will provide us with what we need. To say that we don’t want them for the reasons you gave is simply beyond my scope to understand why you would cop to that kind of thinking and that it’s ok Dean and others who agree with Dean.
Chances are most of you wouldn’t be here today without immigrants from your ancestry coming here. I know I wouldn’t.
I agree 100% with Alan’s post and I am glad he said every single letter and punctuation. It needed to be said.
xenophobic, a very appropriate word.
One problem with using Emma Lazarus’ poem for today’s circumstances. She wrote her famous poem 50 years before The New Deal. In 1883, every immigrant came knowing they would have to support themselves and build a new life as Americans. Trump is plugging into the angst over many immigrants who are now coming across the border with no interest in becoming Americans, but only in the programs funded by tax paying Americans.
Also, a LOT of drugs and gang members come across the border…a lot.
Legal immigration=good
illegal immigration=bad for America
David
Dean,
I agree. I didn’t see your post before I jumped in. Glad to know someone else had a similar thought.
It is important that we remember the legal vs. illegal. I serve a multi ethic church. There are no issues with any of our people concerning those who come in legally. Legal immigrants included, however, are totally against the lawlessness that is destroying the economy and robbing our own citizens via illegal immigration. We Christians are real close to putting ourselves into a corner ethically when we say one thing about laws and then say we should accept and fund those who brake the laws.
Should have been “break…”
Two or three years ago, the Pinal County, AZ Sheriff came across some illegals transporting drugs. As he prepared to make a stop, (with back up coming to assist) a helicopter flew over and started to shoot the Sheriffs vehicle with military grade weapons.
This happened just about 15 miles from my home in Maricopa County, AZ.
What were you saying about fear?
I also said quite a bit about securing the border, defending the border, and protecting U.S. Citizens and how all of that should happen.
BUT, as we do all of that, we should not give up the belief that America is a place for migrants and exiles, as we all once were – and that America can be a transformative place.
I am AGAINST illegal immigration. But, I am for reforming a system that has holes in it everywhere from the border to the visa process to what we are to do with those who have been here illegally for many years.
What I am saying is that as we address this major issue, fear and anger will not help us solve the problem. And, we should not throw away the ethos that helped make America great. But, yes, we should protect the border.
The reactions to Alan’s artcicle are a sad reflection of our ability to separate fantasy from reality and spin from fact.
For example, a majority of those now in the country illegally were once here legally. They came in work visas. The visas expired. They did not and now cannot earn enough money to get home. Many of them now work as virtually indentured servant to the companies who sponsored them only now for less money and less hope.
Most of those who are here illegally are law abiding and not on services. In fact, they cannot take advantage of government programs due to their immigration status. Their children CAN access them, but most do not because their parents are unaware that SNAP offices and DHS are non-reporting agencies.
Yes there is some violence on the border as related to the drug trade and human trafficking, but that’s not the vast majority of the reality facing those trying to enter the country. Many are fleeing violence and oppression in their home countries and they feel the U.S. is their only hope. The humanitarian crisis taking place in Latin America is as large and deadly as many of the same situations in Africa- just replace the warlords with the cartels.
Trump reveals himself in his rhetoric. He blames “Mexico” and “Mexicans.” He has no clue that the majority of illegals crossing the border are from Guatemala, El Salvador, and other LA countries, not Mexico. He is playing the media and the anti-immigrant forces to whip up support without paying attention to the facts.
I personally can’t wait for the debates because he is going to be eviscerated as his ignorance on his pet issue is revealed. Then he will crawl back into whatever dark hole he inhabits and leave the election to those who actually want to talk about issues rather than to pander to the lowest common denominator voter.
My only fear is that at that point it will be to late.
Ryan,
While I agree with the sentiments of your comment. I actually think that rather than deporting these people we should find a path to legalization for them. At least then they would be entitled to better wages and would not have to hide. The idea that some members of Congress are wanting to pass legislation that would deny citizenship to babies of illegals who were born here is as unamerican as it gets.
Having said all that though, I’m not sure that I buy into your multiple uses of the word “majority”. I’m not sure that the majority had work visas at one point. While I know that a lot of undocumented folks are from places like El Salvador and Nicaragua, I’m not sure that they are the majority. I am not attacking you, I would simply like to see your sources.
For instance, according to a Pew Research Center article dates 7/24/2015, 52% of illegal immigrants are Mexican, although a significant amount of them are from other countries the majority are still from Mexico. The trend says that is a changing thing, but currently the majority are Mexicans.
Also according to a WSJ article 40% of illegals once entered legally and simply over stayed their visas. While that is a significant amount, that is not a majority.
But I do basically agree with the sentiments of you and Adam on this issue. I love the Mexican people and I think deportation is not an option, and certainly doesn’t display the grace of Christ that we should be projecting.
I meant Alan not aadam.
John,
I agree with you that a path to citizenship is the best option. That and making it easier to come into the country legally would make a huge difference in the illegal immigration debate.
I don’t dispute some of the facts that you post. I don’t have access to some of the documentation I have read over the last year on this issue. (Oklahoma played host to a group of kids for a few months last year, so the stats are a little fuzzier in my mind due to time) I was very surprised at the number of immigrants coming from other countries besides Mexico. I will try to find the links to the stats I was referring to on Monday and post them in this thread.
Thanks for the interaction and your compassionate heart on this issue.
Ryan, what you say here about the complexity of the issue is true. I have studied this intensely for the past 4 years or so and can say that what I have found about what caused all of this is quite disturbing. The issue is WAY more complicated than Mexican criminals sneaking across the border to simultaneously steal American jobs and live off of American social services.
There are levels upon levels of corruption in all of this. The least of the offenders is often the poor undocumented immigrant who has nowhere to go.
What makes USA great is not the best and brightest.
What makes it great is a people desiring to be moral, and obey God.
Its not the poor and lowly stacking up the numbers of the yet born killed, its more than likely the best and brightest who don’t have time to raise a child as they seek more and more stuff.
Its not the poor and lowly who are probably working long hours and more than one job to feed their kids who are feeding the billion dollar pornography business.
The poor might be gambling some but probably no where in comparison to the best and brightest and their fantasy leagues.
Rather its the idea that man can become great by being the best and brightest [while ignoring God and His ways] that will be this country’s downfall [and is already].
As the church we should stay out of politics. We should do everything we can for those poor and lowly as we meet them along the path of life, like food and shelter and care, and especially the Gospel. But as to whether they stay or go, we should stay out of the politics of it. Those we come across, treat with respect and love. If tomorrow they get deported, they get deported.
God has given government the role to regulate secular life. And as sojourners in the land, we should respect the government when we can. As citizens of the land we are free to debate and vote what we think is right and good. But we are not to impose our beliefs in this area on to our brothers and sisters as a religious duty.
So if you disagree with immigration law or policy, contact your congressman. Or start a secular ground swell movement. But leave the church out of it.
And as a church, give care and love to all those we run across, no matter what their legal state is.
Parson mike,
I believe that we should stay out of partisan politics and that we should not align ourselves with candidates or parties. However, I do not think that we should cease to advocate on certain issues. We should make our voice heard, like you say, and we should call for justice and right living in the land. But, our hope should be in God as we do so and not in getting this person or that person elected.
I do not really care who gets elected. I do care about the issues, however, and what the stance is on certain issues like abortion. Those types of issues end up pushing me toward a certain party, but it is not the party but the issues that I care about.
So, as long as we still live in a Democratic Republic, Christians should be involved in governance. The question is “how?”
Alan Cross,
I agree 100% with your post. But, what used to be conservative values has changed.
Trump pushes all the right buttons, racists love him. I don’t think illegal immigration is the problem. The problem is racism. Illegal immigration is a problem but not the problem.
For Trump to be leading the pack, that tells me that Conservatives are fed up with their own party, and want a change.
The Tea party is not the answer.
Even the left is fed up with their party, this is why Bernie Sanders is climbing in the polls. Yes, I know Bernie is running on the democrat ticket, but the represents change.
God is not a factor in today’s politics. The fact is that more and more folks in the church don’t want God to be a factor in their lives. Many young folks are saying religion and their personal lives are two different animals. Sad but true.
This is one big mess we are in.
Jess,
Yes, we are in a mess. I agree. But, I do not think that racism is the issue here. If it were, white conservatives would not like Rubio, Cruz, Ben Carson, etc. The issue is that people want to protect and defend their own way of life over and against any perceived threats or challenges. If you can convince someone from one “group” that certain people from another group of any kind is a threat to them, then you begin to gain power. Christians get caught up in this and give divine rationale to what ultimately serves their own personal interests. That is the real mess.
My point in this post is to show that Trump represents neither traditional, Conservative, nor Christian values. He does, however, tap into the strong sentiment that has run through American history that is focused on “me and mine” and protecting one’s self over others. When Trump says what he says about Mexicans and a certain number of Americans nod in agreement, it is not because of the facts, it is because of a built in sense of superiority based not on race, but based on class, nationality, and a desire for personal protection.
Alan, I think, as others have noted, that you fail to view history except from the vantage of “all immigrants welcome, at all times, legal or illegal.”
Yet history doesn’t align with your view. Immigration, after the late 18th and early 19th century influx was put on halt during the 1920s, due to the fact there were too many and assimilation was becoming more problematic. Also, immigration was limited to mainly Western European countries to keep assimilation more conducive to the historic population of the United States. It wasn’t until Ted Kennedy’s immigration bill in the 1960s that the doors to this country were thrown open to any and all comers with little regard for assimilation. It was at this time that many countries that were never allowed to emigrate to America prior were now given the green light.
One of the largest priorities of the Federal Government is to protect the sovereignty of this nation and the total disregard for immigration (both legal and illegal) compromises the country. The 2000 census figures show that the number of legal and illegal immigrants living in the United States has almost tripled since 1970, rising from 9.6 million to 26.3 million and far outpacing the growth of the native-born population. Furthermore, allowing naturalized citizens to hold two passports instead of renouncing their former country (which was the standard oath prior to the 1990s) is problematic at best and dangerous at worse. No more E Pluribus Unum in this country anymore. Want to become a U.S. citizen and still be a Libyan citizen as well? No problem.
Welcome to the Balkenization of America.
Nate, I am well aware of all of that history and have studied it in detail. I know about the Nativist movements that opposed every wave of immigrants that have come here from the late 1700s all the way until today. “America for Americans!” The fears have always been the same. We didn’t want the Irish or the Hessians or the Eastern Europeans – Poles, Slovaks, Russians. We didn’t want the Southern Europeans – Italians and Greeks. Keep out the Catholics lest the Pope take over America! Get rid of the Japanese and Chinese on the West Coast (after they build our railroads and bridges, that is). And the blacks – we never wanted them, right? I speak facetiously, of course. The argument that you are making had always been there too. And I know about the the limits placed in the 1920s, primarily because of these fears. But, the STRONGER strain of American life when America was great was reflected in Lazarus’ poem. That is America too – and more America than what you are saying, in my opinion. There are not too many people here. The entrepreneurial spirit and work ethic of immigrants far outweighs that of native born Americans. They want to work and contribute and build a life. Many of them have conservative values and are family oriented. Many are Christians or would be open to Christianity – if we would be open to them. I am not calling for more illegal immigration. But, I do believe that this nation is vast and that we could bring in many more people. The question is, what kind of nation will they find when they get here? Will they find a strong, robust, confident nation influenced by a strong, confident, serving church? Or will they find angry, fearful people who just want to shut the door? They are here and their ranks are growing. Our opinions on an SBC message board aren’t stopping that no matter how loud we protest. Trump won’t stop it either and he won’t be president. My concern is in the proliferation of his defeatist mentality, especially among Christians. As for the way that the mission of the church can adapt to the nations coming to us, I should not have to elaborate on that here. We should be able to see what is happening. Has it occurred to us that the Barbarian Invasions… Read more »
“There are not too many people here. The entrepreneurial spirit and work ethic of immigrants far outweighs that of native born Americans. They want to work and contribute and build a life.”
The welfare rolls don’t back your argument, Alan. And, as Jerry comments below, your insinuation that immigrants have a superior work ethic than native born Americans is shameful and suspect. While there are certainly immigrants who have great work ethics, to slam Americans, who are paying their taxes to support immigrant’s [legal and illegal] (medical, educational, food stamps, and many other services) while paying out of their own pockets to support their own families, is beyond dispute. Your statement is an insult to my parents, my family, and many others.
It’s interesting that you brought Trump into the discussion (which I didn’t) and speak of how he “won’t be your president”. It seems pretty obvious that your president has the door wide open and wants more and more to come in so he can set the government up to run everything and take away liberty from the citizenry. The only one who will be defeated at that point will be the citizens who got run over by the barbarians at the gate (as you so subtly pointed out). And your president will be sure to remove the church’s liberty as well.
Keep revealing your ignorance Nate. Illegals are not filling our welfare rolls. They don’t qualify. Can’t qualify.
Try another fear mongering tack because that dog won’t hunt.
Illegal immigrants who are parents of anchor babies do qualify for welfare, WIC, food stamps, etc… No one should have a problem with this for who wants a child to be neglected but saying illegals can’t receive welfare is not correct.
Dean, yes, this is a huge problem. One, as you say, who wants to see families broken up? Two, removing parents from children puts the children in the foster system, which would cost more. This is why we need some form of earned legalization for these families who have been here for a period of time and are otherwise law abiding.
Alan, I agree 100%. As a father of two teenage boys I can’t imagine breaking up families. Whatever the solution for immigration that can’t be part of it.
Ryan, I’m sorry to break it to you, but illegals receive free health care, and as Dean says, their children receive welfare (rightly or wrongly). In some states illegals receive in-state college tuition, so it is not me showing ignorance, but those who want to hide their heads in the sand.
Dean,
There is a distinct difference between saying that undocumented immigrants receive benefits, and saying that their children- who are citizens of this country by birth, qualify for and receive SNAP, WIC, etc. These kids are citizens of the USA. They qualify legally for benefits. That makes Nate’s assertion factually untrue.
Nate,
You continue to reveal your cold heart and lack of compassion. So you don’t want doctors to treat sick people without making sure they are citizens? That’s nice.
Can you please show me in Scripture where your position is asserted by Jesus?
Nate can I ask you further, where in Scripture are ANY of the nativist positions you are spouting supported?
Ryan, no, there is no difference at all. Just use a little reasoning, the anchor baby makes qualification possible but does not qualify for anything because they have no income. If this were not true then my two sons would qualify for welfare because they make no money. It is the family of the anchor baby who qualifies and that qualification is based upon the family’s income. Ryan, this is why so many Latinas try to get to America to have children. It is because the anchor baby will be a citizen and that offers protection and aid to the family. If these babies were being ripped from the arms of the mothers who were then deported few ladies would attempt to get to America to have a child.
Again, I have no problem with this policy but you are not sharing the truth when you say illegals can’t receive welfare.
This scenario is playing out tens of thousands of times a year. It is just one of the problems we have with our immigration system. The latest census revealed that 1/3 of foreign born babies in America are now born to illegals. These families now qualify for government assistance because of the child. I have no idea how many actually receive the assistance. It could be that 95% of these families are able to care for themselves without any assistance whatsoever but if one of these families’ income is below a certain threshold they can receive aid.
Nate,
I read your comment a couple of times and I have no idea what you are talking about. I was not insulting American workers. They work incredibly hard. My point was that first generation immigrants are statistically more entrepreneurial and often do jobs that Americans refuse to do. I am talking about legal immigrants throughout this discussion, by the way. And, I have never voted for Obama.
Alan, you may have read my comment a few times, but you appear to have read right past your own quote, “There are not too many people here. The entrepreneurial spirit and work ethic of immigrants far outweighs that of native born Americans. They want to work and contribute and build a life.”
Now if you can’t read your own words where you say immigrant work ethics “FAR OUTWEIGHS” that of native born Americans, and realize that is an insult, I’m not sure what to say.
Nate,
Studies have shown that first generation immigrants are far more entrepreneurial, start more businesses, take more chances, and work more jobs of disrepute than native born Americans. That is a fact. Those studies are what were in my mind when I wrote the above phrase. Now, whether or not one group is working harder than the next, I do not know. My comment was not meant as an insult to anyone. It was referring to the factors that I just listed. So, at whatever point that I gave offense by being imprecise, I apologize. I have no desire to denigrate my own countrymen in any way. My point is just that the image of the lazy Mexican sneaking across the border so she can have a baby and take tax payer money while simultaneously taking American jobs is a complete falsehood. It is used as a foil to muddy the debate and THAT is what I reject.
Alan, could you share if those studies are on legal imagerents only or if they include illegal as well? I have to travel in my ministry and have met numerous legal imagerents that own hotels, gas stations and such. They are almost all named Patele, must be a common Indian name. It is easy to believ legal imagerents are entrepanours. I am not sure this is what is happening on our southern border and with illegal imagerents in general. Please do not read this as agreement with Donald T because I am not educated on who is coming across the Mexican border.
“Immigrants” because of threading on phone I’m only getting four letters a line. Can’t see what auto correct is doing.
Dean, I feel your pain on doing this on the phone. It is really hard. I have to turn my phone to the side and it helps some.
I am pretty sure that is legal immigrants just because it would be hard to track it with illegal immigrants. But, the fact that even the illegal immigrants come here to work speaks to the mindset that immigrants have when they come. They largely come here to work, even those who come illegally. The apartments in my city with 12-14 people a piece living in them and the roofing crews and other manual Laborers who are on roofs in 115 degree heat index speak to that.
“Doing jobs Americans refuse to do” is a tired and overused political sound byte.
The problem with this statement is that it’s not true. It’s a myth. This has been quantified recently.
Nate, assimilation always “seems to be problematic.” It usually takes 2 to 3 generations for it to be accomplished, but because we are so impatient and short-sighted, if it does not happen in 2 to 3 years, we think it is not happening at all. One of my great-great-great-grandfathers came to America about 1768, fought in the American Revolution (in the militia, which meant it was only occasional and usually against local threats, i.e., Indian raids) and yet when he died in 1835, it was said he still spoke only a few words of English. His great-grandchildren did not even know what language he spoke. Many of them fought in the Civil War, some on one side, some on the other. One was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for valor at the Battle of Shiloh or Pittsburg Landing. And whichever side different ones were on, they were thoroughly assimilated into the culture of their states–into America. The perceived threat in the 1920s was largely fueled, I think, by Irish, and eastern European immigration on the East Coast and by Asians (primarily Chinese) on the west. They probably did retain much of their native culture and customs, but their descendents today seem to be thoroughly assimilated.
By the way, Alan, this is the tone from you I am used to and admire.
John
I get that John. You may want to go back and read what I wrote. I did not call an end to immigration forever, rather, I refuted Alan’s assertions that immigration has happened forever, noting that historically immigration has been halted for periods of time to allow those who have come to assimilate. We don’t do that any more. Moreover with today’s socialistic mindset this is far more difficult than in generations past because once you get here, you receive welfare and other subsidies that weren’t available before. And, immigrants (on average) use more welfare than native-born citizens.
http://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011
I’m sure there are other links that might refute this, but regardless, socialism in America society today vs. the late 19th and early 20th century has had a huge impact on the issue today; certainly for taxpayers.
Thank you, John. I get fired up about this issue, but hopefully, we can discuss it reasonably. I have always enjoyed your comments over the years as well. You always make me think.
Great story about your family’s background. Yes, assimilation has always taken a generation or two. Ironically, it is the anti-immigration folks who are impeding assimilation as we are keeping people Balkanized instead letting people enter society. Since we are NOT going to deport them – it will never happen – we should provide them a legal path to either citizenship or at the very least, provided documentation so they can pay taxes, support their children, and come out of the shadows. That process should be earned and through it, we can better identify those who should be here and those who SHOULD be deported because they are criminals in other ways.
Around here we have many farmers who loves the illegals, that is who they hire. They will not hire the legal immigrates, for they do not want to pay such high wages. So when they make all of them legal, they will be out looking for illegals to hire to do their work. Even some Christian loves this methods.
And I believe it will be the same way in many other areas of our nation.
When we lived in southside Virginia, Hispanic workers did most of the farm work there, both year round and seasonal (migrant workers). It was not because the farmers there paid low wages that only attracted illegals, but because locals would not do the work at all.
John
A post from Peter Leithart at First Things about all of this that you might find interesting. He speaks some strong words on this subject:
http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2015/07/the-nation-the-church-and-the-immigrants
I see shades of Social Gospel liberalism infecting more and more young Southern Baptists. First, they tell us to stay away from political partisanship and then we get lines and lines of attack against their political enemies (in this case Donald Trump.)
At this point, even legal immigration has distorted the US job market. If you look at the stats, since the end of the Great Recession, all job growth has essentially gone to legal and illegal immigrants. From a National Review article, “Native employment has still not returned to pre-recession levels, while immigrant employment already exceeds pre-recession levels,” the report says. “Furthermore, even with recent job growth, the number of natives not in the labor force (neither working nor looking for work) continues to increase.”
What does this mean? Americans (particularly the young) are having a harder time finding work and the flood of immigrants are pushing wages lower. Now, in most cases this can be a good thing to have competition in the market to keep wages lower as it increases economic competitiveness. However, at some point if wages continue to languish, we will lose the middle class.
Nothing that you wrote about has anything to do with social gospel liberalism. Nothing that I wrote about does either. If there is any social gospel liberalism, it would be found in Trump who follows the gospel of success and has never asked God for forgiveness (his own words).
Alan is correct (from a social perspective) about the evolution of “social gospel liberalism” both within the the younger generation of Southern Baptists in general and in the writings/views of Alan Cross in particular.
Calling themselves “conservative inerrantists” does little to mask or hide the growing phenomenon.
I doubt seriously whether Trump cares if his views are labeled “social gospel” or not as he does not seem to deal with nor is he concerned about religious labels or sects with the exception of Islamic terrorism.
At this point, I would take the “social gospel” of Trump over the “social gospel” of Alan Cross simply because it makes more since and seems more plausible given the nature of the current crises.
Alan,
I understand your point however I think what occurred a hundred years ago and what is going on now is like comparing apples and oranges. For instance ( and I could be very wrong) the majority of people who came here wanted to be Americans first and foremost and they were willing to adapt I don’t get that same feeling today. I think many want the benefits of being in a half way organized society without the responsibilities of citizenship. Assimilation can occur only as much as everyone wants it to. I think that it is asking to much for the tax payer to pay the bill.
By the way I ordered and received your book When Heaven and Earth collide,,, great so far! Thank you for your hard work.
Blessings in Christ,
wilbur