I have the great privilege to be a part of the network of churches that make up the New Orleans Baptist Association. We are so diverse from one another and yet there is such unity within our diversity. We have different traditions, ethnicities, broad soteriologies, differing worship styles, ecclesiological models, big churches, little churches, established churches and brand new church plants. Our “big church” pastors are just as involved with our association’s work as are our “small church” pastors. All these differences and yet we love one another. We have wonderful times of fellowship with one another, preach in each other’s churches and care for one another in ways I’ve never before witnessed. There is no divisive backtalk to one another in this area. Maybe it’s because of the unique spiritual darkness we battle daily that we are so keenly aware of being on the same team that we do not spend time fighting one another but rather we pull together. So healthy is our work that we recently started a medical clinic that now has spread to multiple locations serving an otherwise underserved portion of our population. Not a week goes by that I am not thankful to be a part of this work.
I am also deeply thankful for my friend Jack Hunter (the Executive Director of our work here) and the other men (Leroy and Alex) that work in our office. These guys are heroes to me. They help to coordinate and encourage us daily and spend time doing very difficult ministry that often goes unnoticed and unappreciated. Let it be known that our NOBA pastors appreciate these guys. I am thankful for their voice and I especially appreciate their heart on this particular matter. Please don’t completely write off Louisiana Baptists. There is great, cooperative, Christ-like, humble work going on in New Orleans. Please continue to pray for us. For more information on NOBA and more great articles please visit our site at www.joinnoba.com.
Is Racism Still an Issue Among Churches? A Response to MLK50 and Fallout
Is racism still an issue among churches? If not, if racism is a past offense, then the recent MLK50 conference which our NOBA staff attended was the reopening of a sealed wound, the undoing of decades of hard-fought healing. If not, Russell Moore deserves the criticism our state executive recently leveled at him, that he is “causing controversy again—remember last year?” If racism is no longer an issue among churches, then discussing and addressing racism among churches is a distraction from the true purpose of the people of God.
Is racism still an issue among churches? If so, Russell Moore has once again placed himself in danger of heavy criticism from powerful men like our state executive in order to call our churches to repentance, which is courageous. If so, then discussing and addressing racism among churches is an act of confession and repentance, as central to the purpose of the people of God as evangelism—for if our evangelism does not include a call for repentance of sin, then our evangelism is worthless, and our gospel false, straying far from the original message of “Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.” If racism is still an issue among our churches, then the body of Christ in America is revealed to be divided limb from limb and in desperate, deathly need of a Physician.
So is racism still an issue among churches? Most people have ready answers to the question—but those ready answers are contrary.
One of the ready answers is that racism would not be an issue if people would only stop breathing new life into the controversy. The analogy of a wound seems to fit here because wounds will heal in time if left untroubled.
Small wounds will heal, that is. Deep wounds fester. Cancers metastasize.
The history of the people of God in Scripture covers thousands of years, far longer than the two generations separating us from the U.S. Supreme Court’s landmark Brown v. Board of Education decision that overturned as unconstitutional racial segregation laws that had become known as “separate but equal.” We see clearly in those infallible pages, throughout those millennia, that time has never accomplished righteousness for a people; time has never accomplished repentance. The Spirit does these things, and He works in and through His people.
Unless we enter into a regular rhythm of confession and repentance surrounding issues of race in our church, these deep wounds will worsen, as the patient who stops taking antibiotics once the most apparent symptoms subside. Laws have changed and apologies have been made, but these are only the first steps of repentance, and we must continue in regular rhythms—or was your personal sanctification accomplished in a moment? No, and we must lead our churches to work out their salvation in fear and trembling corporately as well as personally.
Are we surprised or offended that we, too, might be sinful, we who lead churches and determine the courses of denominations? Have we forgotten that “when our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said ‘repent,’ he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance?” Repent then, or what Jesus said of religious leaders in his day will be true of us, that “for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God…this people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.”
Another ready answer to the question of whether racism is still an issue among churches is that racism is an issue, but not a primary issue, and focusing on it will distract us from our primary purpose as the people of God. This is the position of the Levite who passes on the other side of the road when he sees his brother lying broken. It is good that you spend your time and church resources on worship and evangelism, but only if you have also cared for your brother. The Levite is not at fault for what he does, for he does good things, but he falters on one thing that is primary. Love of neighbor has always been a primary issue for the church: “if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.”
We are willing, and rightly so, to decry abortion as a primary issue for our churches—and this is needed, especially since the number of abortions for people of color is disproportionately high—but don’t allow your compassion to falter after the birth of a child. Does your compassion follow that child home, where nearly half of all black children in New Orleans live in poverty, without stable food or housing? Or do you give dispassionate reasons why black households here earned 63% less than white households, and why the employment rate for black men was at a mere 52%. As that child grows, does your compassion walk alongside him into his re-segregated public school? Would you still have compassion if he were arrested? What if he were convicted, and detained in the Orleans Parish Prison, where black people comprise a hugely disproportionate number of those incarcerated?*
Why are we so ready to admit our part in nailing Christ to his cross nearly two thousand years ago in a nation and among people not our own, but we cannot admit that we may have some part in the sins of fifty years ago, and we are offended when someone suggests that those sins may still linger? Repentance is the first step in evangelism: “repent and believe.” Every church with a desire for evangelism must also have a desire to confess our part in these disparities, even if our part is indifference, like the Levite. We must repent, cross the road (or the tracks) and spend our money to restore our neighbors back to wellness, as the Samaritan told the innkeeper, “whatever the cost.”
One of the ready answers to the question of whether or not racism is still an issue among churches is that racism is one of the most significant sins of American Evangelical churches. This is our answer and the answer of many in our city and region. To this ready answer, a caution: alongside this answer, be equally ready with love for those who have sinned against you, because the sins against a person are able to consume him as wholly as those he commits. Do not grow weary with forgiveness, as the apostles did when they limited their forgiveness to seven times, but seek the heart of Christ who forgave seventy times seven times, even as the people he would gather “as a hen her children” failed to offer him food and a place to stay, even as they jailed him, even as they hung him on a tree.
I write knowing this article will seem to many as “causing controversy again,” but that is only true if sin is not present among us in this area. The closer I draw to our Lord, the more I see the immense depth and breadth of my sin—alongside the immensity of His grace which covers it. I pray the Lord would continue to convict me so that, in knowing the enormity of my sin, I might know his grace abounding all the more and be more fully conformed to the likeness of Christ. I pray the same for us all.
Signed:
Jack Hunter, Executive Director, NOBA
Leroy Fountain, Church Health Strategist, NOBA
Alex Brian, Neighborhood Ministries Coordinator, NOBA
Jack, thank you for this. Wow. Incredibly powerful.
Thanks, Jay, for sharing.
Happy to do it, bro. I love and appreciate you guys. Thanks for the clarity and substance written here.
Which churches?
Certainly there is still racism within the Body of Christ. Just as there is other sins. But racism is an attitude. An attitude which leads to sinful acts. If one does not have that attitude, they are not racist. They may be liars, or adulterers, or gossips, or whatever, but not racists.
So which church is racist? The whole congregation? Or just most of it? Is it yours? or is it you guys’?
You see your sin, whatever it is, and are convicted about it. But on what grounds do you declare “churches” racist? You may see the sin of some church members, is that enough to call the whole congregation racist? Does anyone lie in your church? Does that make the church a lying church? Does anyone gossip in your church, does that make it a gossip church?
We had a man committing adultery, a member. We prayed for the family, we confronyed him, we took him through the church discipline process, and he repented. We had another man misapporpiating funds and then lieing about it, We did the same for him, and he didnt repent, and now he is gone. That is how the Bible tells us to work discipline for those caught up in sin. It does not tell us to blanket condemn all churchesbecause some people in some churches are racist.
Maybe in your state, racism is a significant sin, but how do you know that it is in other states? Have you been to a lot of the 48000 SBC churches and observed racism? Of course not.
What part of these “disparities” did my church, for example, partake in? Was it the giving of our forbears to suffer and die as brave men and to leave widows and fatherless as they sought to free the slaved?
Do you know how the SBC was formed? It was because some northern churches did not want missionaries to come from pro-slave churches. Not every church wasfor slavery.
But even if your church was once pro-slavery, does not mean they are now. Neither does it mean, necessarily, that they have to continue to repent for their own individual past sins. Of course if they are still being racist and treating others wrong, they still need to repent. If they are not properly repenting, but still engaging in racist acts, then confront them as individuals, and seek their repentance.
Thank you Mr. White! Well said!!When will the blame game stop?
“Does your compassion follow that child home…”
First of all, abortion isnt racism or about racism. Its about the killing of children. Why are you adding that to a talk on racism?
Second, racism isnt why most black children end up in those stats you gave. The sin of their parents and community is to blame for most of that. Fatherless children tend to end up in trouble with the law, if they are males, and the females disapprortionally end up with children from different men, who usually do not stick around to raise their children.
Thse things have very little to do with a church that has some racists in it.
Third, the reason abortion is high among blacks isnt due to racism, but has a lot to do with what I just mentioned. For example, look at Chicago. Look at all the black on black crime that is there. And it is that way in most every major us city, and from what I hear, inEurope as well, Its not white racism that causes a black person to inflict hate on their own community.
And what is the cure for that criminal activity but a changed heart wrought by the preaching of the Gospel and the mercy of God.
And if your church is complicit in those crimes, those complicit should repent.
Mike, I think — and I say this in the gentlest and friendliest spirit, so please read in that tone — the article was speaking to you: “Why are we so ready to admit our part in nailing Christ to his cross nearly two thousand years ago in a nation and among people not our own, but we cannot admit that we may have some part in the sins of fifty years ago, and we are offended when someone suggests that those sins may still linger?”
Really, why? It’s 100 percent okay if you, on some level, feel attacked by this post and others like it. I bristle too, sometimes, if I feel like white people as a whole are being blamed for X.
But when something makes you feel defensive, maybe it’s worth asking /what it is/ you’re trying to defend — when you read a post like this, what exactly is under threat? We don’t have that urge to go on the counterattack unless *something* is at stake, right? So what’s the something?
None of these are “gotchas,” BTW — they’re just questions that I learned to ask myself whenever I had a spat with my girlfriend. Granted, the context here is sliiiiightly different, but I’ve *always* learned something useful by asking ’em. Here’s hoping the magic still works on the internet. 🙂
David,
Thanks for your reply, especially in a friendly and gentle spirit.
You know, sometimes that is true, that a person counterattacks because they are convicted.
But, it is not always true.
Sometimes they respond, and I wouldnt think my post is an attack, since I am disagreeing with the authors, but I dont disparage them in any way, so they respond not defensively because of sin, but because they seek to defend the truth.
Now a disagreement isnt a spat. To reject what another tells you isnt a fight. And to stand for truth doesnt mean you feel attacked.
So why dont you, if you want, find what I have written that is wrong or unfriendly and point that out to me.
Thanks,
Mike
Stand strong Mr. White! You’re speaking truth and I stand with you on all points.
David,
Now may I ask you, in that same friendly and gentleness of spirit, a few questions.
Are you a racist?
Is your church predominantly full of racists?
Do you or your church members consistently treat minorities in unrighteous ways?
Some people do you know.
If you or your church members are racist, I urge you to repent. And I urge you to confront the racists within your midst and urge them to repent.
If you aren’t and they aren’t, well praise the Lord.
And if they are not, my point is made, that it is wrong to generalize when accusing others of sin.
Have a blessed day David
Mike, whenever the topic is racial reconciliation and justice you have a tendency to dominate the discussion and attempt to filibuster the comment stream.
No one minds you leaving a few comments but could you keep it to a reasonable level?
I think we all pretty much know where you stand on racial justice. Right?
It is one thing to admit that we all bear the responsibility to ameliorate the effects of the sins of our national (if not familial) forefathers. It is quite another to insist that we all must admit our complicity in the sins of our national (if not familial) forefathers.
Racism exists. It must be fought. I have a responsibility to fight current racism even if I don’t bear any ancestral guilt for past racism (and I don’t). I don’t need to apologize, or admit complicity, I just need to call out racism and not be a racist.
Bill Mac,
If there is no such thing as institutional sin, or corporate sin, I agree with u…there is no complicity in sins of past generations or currently if one is not individually guilty. I believe that if an institution sins…such as the SBC, when the 1st SBC Prez, William Johnson argued that slavery was a “civil” matter, not a “church” matter….And the SBC would not interfere with “Caesar” meaning the government regarding matters related to slavery, thereby bastardizing Jesus’s words in Mt.22:21,”Render unto Caesar”….then an institutionSBC) who engages in such a sin & distortion of Scripture, should institutionally or corporately repent/apologize of that sin, even if the ones responsible are all dead. The Bible in Nehemiah & Daniel gives examples of “confessing the sins of the fathers.”
I think the SBC did just that.
Good points Bill.
Not at all. Not one word in ‘95 apology that addresses the abuse & misue Of The Bible in defending slavery. Two separate issues. 1. Supporting slavery(repented of). 2. Misuse of the Bible in doing so(unrepented of)
DWIGHT,
So its not about slavery, or about racial discord, but its about mis-using the Bible?
Thats what many people do to justify their sin. That is what the SBC did to justify their sin. And as you say, those are two separate issues.
Blessings brother
Yes & no. Yes, the SBC’s unrepented Of Corporate/Institutional sin is strictly about the intentional errant use, of inerrant Scripture to justify, defend, & promote slavery. No. The racial abuse of the act of slavery has already taken placed. There’s absolutely no need to redo that.
Look, I’m trying to be reasonable about this and see this through different eyes as best I can. But it is hard for me to accept that living each day not being racist just isn’t good enough. What else do I need to do with my black students and black colleagues and black supervisor and black Ph.D. advisor but simply treat them the same way I treat everyone else? I’m not color blind. I don’t pretend black people aren’t black and I’m happy to get into conversations about race. But I don’t apologize to them.
When does the Christian offer forgiveness to this generation when forgiveness isn’t being sought for the sins of a previous generation?
Is there a never-ending cycle being developed of what one expects repentance from others of?
Must we investigate every jot and tittle of our predecessors in the SBC to make sure we repent for their behavior? Who gets to pick and choose which sins we must deal with and which ones we don’t?
If when I received the forgiveness of Jesus for salvation a condition was stated that I must make sure all past sins are listed… I would still be lost.
Isn’t it time to look at Phil. 3 and put things behind us so we can move forward?
Amen. It seems that Dwight will never stop looking for the sins of the past.
Greg: This comment coming from a white man doesn’t mean a whole lot. I agree with Dave, many black people speak out on an issue and it is dismissed. One or two or three speak out in the opposite view and they are lauded as right and listened to. The other site has not ever published any article from Ken Howard, Dwight McKissic or Thabiti Anyabwile. Suddenly they publish not one but two of Lorine Spratt’s letters and laude her as the voice of reason and right. That alone makes me circumspect. Just watch the news or talk to any black man or woman to know that a few feel as Lorine Spratt does, but most do not, and as I have said, in my area I have seen and heard many racist thoughts. Once in a while you still see the Confederate flag being flown in a yard or car. Also the recent Alt Right demonstrations that have happened as well as future ones being planned should clue us in.
My other thought is if none of this has happened to Lorine Spratt, then great. I am glad for her and others that have not experienced the sting of racism or don’t want to “rock the boat” talking race but I would content that is not true for others. Just the majority American view on immigration shows that some racism or at the least xenophobia is rampant in our country. In fact what I thought was minority and gone, reared its ugly head about two years ago. No we are not near done with the race issue.
Greg,
It’s a serious matter when a foundation has a serious flaw. If u ignore a faulty foundation ultimately it will result in: cracked walls, inside & out; doors & windows often not functioning properly; structural & plumbing issues. You simply cannot ignore a faulty foundation, if so, u do it to ur own peril.
This matter simply has never been addressed. It unveils racism & “putrid exegesis” motivated by racism & economic exploitation that if Wise, the SBC will fix. Not quite understanding ur objection to repairing a broken foundation.
I don’t believe we have ignored the foundation, we have passed numerous resolutions apologizing addressing the subject of Racism. How is what your doing repairing a broken foundation. It seem to me you are just blasting the builders because they did not use todays building codes.
Jon Estes comment says it all.
Greg,
Very specific question that I am requesting a very specific answer: Has the SBC ever admitted & apologized for the abuse & misuse of Scripture in their effort to justify & defend slavery? Yes or No, please.
The Building Code is the Word Of God, not today’s or yesterday’s standards. Are u really satisfied with not acknowledging the abuse of The Building Code in Building The SBC House? If so, fine; so be it.
My job is simply to call it out. If the body is ok with such a flagrant violation of The Building Code, then that’s on them. My hands are clean. I’ve done my assignment my pinpointing the fracture in the foundation that God wants repaired.
I can name 20 major racial incidents since the approximately 20 yrs ago, the SBC repented for slavery without acknowledging the Scriptural abuse, which was a greater offense than the practice of slavery. The SBC apologized for the lesser offense, not the greater. That explains why racial incidents continue in SBC life. They’ve not dealt with the root issue, the abuse of Scripture, unrepented of.
Great dodge, Greg.
You will not answer the question, because to honestly answer would be incriminating & lead to the conclusion that repentance would be biblically required. If your conscience don’t condemn u, neither will I.
Yes they have. they might not have used the mea culpa that YOU DEMAND but they have. Thanks for not condemning me, try that in regards to William Johnson and Lottie Moon or the millions of late SBC members who sought to serve God to the best of their ability.
Dwight, in the 89 resolutionon racism, we state…
‘WHEREAS, The Bible affirms that all people are created in the image of God and are therefore equal…”
Which clearly states that the current make-up of the sbc believes all are reated equal according to scripture… which would mean that if previous generations thought differently, we do not stand there… we stand upon all are equal… a biblical truth we currently embrace… gladly…
Jon,
If I had practiced physically abusing my wife, and at some point(years later) declare, The Bible teaches that husbands ought to “cherish their wives as they do their own bodies,” & “love their wives as Christ loves the church,”….that does not address or adequately or even begin to apologize for the many previous years I physically assaulted her. Thankfully it announces my current practice is to “cherish” & “love.” Only by inference or implication at best, does it acknowledge my abuse & sin. And if I used Scripture to reason, or justify my abuse…such as quoting the story about Jesus whipping the moneychangers out of the temple(His house)…wouldn’t I need to apologize for the abuse and the misuse/misinterpretation/misapplication of the Scripture?
Believe it or not, I know a man who physically abused his wife repeatedly & justified to her & others by quoting…. The Church is the bride of Christ, and if Jesus whipped His bride in the temple for non-submission, then he felt like those vereses gave him the right to whip his wife.
Do u see the two sins here? Physical abuse & Scriptural abuse? Shouldn’t both sins be repented of?
Thanks for researching & implicitly acknowledging that previous resolutions do not address the Scriptural abuse. BTW, it was only after this gentleman confessed his physical abuse & abuse of Scripture was his marriage finally healed. The last 10–15 yrs of his marital life was bliss. Every Sunday they walked in Church I could only see the miracle of changed lives because of his confessing & forsaking his sins. He passed a couple of yrs ago. One of the blessings of a 35 yr tenure @ one church, u see these kinds of things happening.
Dwight –
You state – “Do u see the two sins here? Physical abuse & Scriptural abuse? Shouldn’t both sins be repented of?”
I do see two sins committed by those described. I am not convinced that an abusive man’s family need to repent of the sins of that man – 100 years later. If the Lord led them to do such, then by all means – obey the Lord.
The difference in your story and the ongoing discussion is the man who did abuse repented of his scriptural abuse, not the generations who follow… which is what you are seeking from the SBC.
For me, when the SBC acknowledged they were wrong on racism/slavery they were equally saying whatever led them to do such wrong – was also wrong and they were repenting of it.
I get it that you and others may want some specific words to be uttered but will such really stop whatever racism is still being shown or seen? It almost feels like if a statement of repentance was given by the SBC, in the annual meeting, then someone in the SBC did something racist, the cry would be we didn’t mean it.
When can we drop the personal demands and start reaching the world together?
I do hope that you can find what you want within the SBC to believe you are equally as welcome and accepted by all. I think you see the heart of what the SBC could benefit by in their love for and acceptance of others on this very blog. There seems to be a few flamethrowers here but I sense most love you and accept you regardless of the color of your skin.
For me and my hope for the SBC is that we can fight the battles for the souls of men ahead of us, instead of battling over the sins of men from centuries past.
Jon, appreciate the dialogue. I understand ur perspective & maybe If I were viewing things from ur background & experience, I would see as u see.
A family is, just that, a family. A family would not owe the outside world an apology because the sin was against the family, not the outside world. One could argue as a witness for Christ, a family, particularly the father, who was the violator did owe his family & others aware of his physical & Scriptural abuse & apology, of which he eventually gave to some of us in the know.
An institution is, just that, an institution. The SBC is an institution that continues generationly into perpetuity. If one generation of this institution(SBC) sins against a given people group—-(in this case African Americans)—-by using the Bible in an unscrupulous manner to justify the corporate subjugation & humiliation of that people group…..then it is encumbet upon the following generation(s) Of The named institution(SBC) to repent for the generation that committed the sin, but never repented. Why, sin must be accounted for. An institution needs a “clear conscience before God” just as individuals do. In the area of having repented for the Scriptural abuse, the SBC cannot have a clear conscience before God as an institution. Individuals can, and indeed do, but the institution cannot, until they repent of the institutional sin. Leaving this to inferred or implied repentance inherent in the earlier apologies for slavery may be acceptable to u & others. I maintain though, that the apology must be as specific and/or as private or public as the offense. The institutional offense here was very specific & very public. Therefore, the apology should be just as specific and just as public.
Finally, those offended can forgive & express forgiveness without an apology. Not only have I forgiven, as have all Black SBC personalities or else we wouldn’t be a part of, or continue to be a part of the SBC….Additionally, I am simply arguing for the SBC having the opportunity to make or give an apology for their institutional sin. Whether apology given or not, I and others forgive the SBC.
Jon, I hope this helps u to better understand my perspective as I now better understand your’s. Thanks.
Dr. Mckissic,
If I could set it up, would you be willing to do a moderated debate on this with Dr. James white, strictly exegesis of the text, and we can use what ever text you prefer, texus receptus, majority, alexandrian, Byzantine, n/a 27, or even the new cbgm.?
I am very curious about your putrid exegesis comment?
I for one would love to see this done in a scholarly debate, it might help us, average joes understand, this is going to cause pain in the church…..
Benny,
Not sure what you mean by a moderated debate “on this.” On what?
Generally speaking I’d be open to a debate with James White(BTW, he’s already declined my offer for such).
However, if u could arrange it, fine. The ground rules for me though will be different than what you’ve suggested.
1. Let’s agree upon topic of debate. Example:
“Contrasting & Compariing The Beliefs and Lifestyle Of Johnathan Edwards & Martin Luther King, Jr, and Resulting Implications.”
2. We’d both have 25 mins to address topic.
3, We’d both have a 5 min rebuttal/follow up response
4. We take questions from audience
Sure, under those or similar conditions I’d debate JW. Another topic may be on “Is Justice An Issue Essential To The Gospel?”
I tried to read the whole blog, and all the post, I was inquiring to your comment about putrid exegesis…..
Al Mohler quote, “putrid exegesis” regarding how the Early SBC fathers abused Scripture to uphold White Supremacy & Black Enslavment.
Thank you, Jon, for a good word well-spoken. It is time to put these things behind us and move forward. From my years of observation of some, they really have no desire to move forward. I think it is time for Southern Baptists to move on and focus on sharing the Gospel until the whole world has heard the Gospel and has had the opportunity to surrender their lives to Jesus. Jesus died for all. The Gospel is for all. Let us renew our focus sharing the Good News with all. The Enemy loves to get us distracted. Let us not fall for his schemes.
To quote George Clinton the dog that chases his tail will be busy. I have yet to see anyone say that churches that are non-white are racist for their makeup. I remember the word homogenous growth principal and I certainly this this accounts for a large part of the demographic makeup in America’s churches.
The homogenous unit principle is practical, but it contradicts the heart of God.b
I agree but there are other factors than racism to favor in to the equation of a churches demographics.
“…we cannot admit that we may have some part in the sins of fifty years ago, and we are offended when someone suggests that those sins may still linger?”
I find this quote to be problematic. If I am to repent of my actions at the age of 18, that’s been done. Were I a 40 something, I could not. Lots of sins linger and it doesn’t offend me when someone makes a broad, general statement. I feel no compunction to offer any vicarious repentance. I have sufficient difficulty with repentance for specific, personal actions.
When scattered data are presented as proof, I feel a need to at least point out the complexities of the issue.
Over all of these questions is the one that is never asked: What is the specific goal that will show repentance?
Good question William.
I’ll believe we are not racist anymore when minorities tell us they don’t feel discriminated against anymore.
Honestly, a bunch of white guys sitting around and talking about how not racist they are is worthy of an SNL satire.
Secondly, In Daniel 9 the most holy guy to grace the pages of the OT begs God for forgiveness using the pronoun ”We”. He is not using satire or false humility. He is genuinely broken over Israel’s generational wicked rebelliousness in a way that I have never heard a white preacher pray.
Praise God for the great work being done in New Orleans. There are many who are working for racial reconciliation. May we all continue to grow in grace and love for each other.
Not up to your usual high level, Strider. While your personal standard for a racism-free society or community is to be commended, it is utterly unachievable institutionally, which may be the goal. And, I have no alternative means of assessing and defending my own personal behavior other than to do so as a white guy.
Sorry to have let you down William! It is a given that if one resorts to making an SNL reference then chances are the comment is too snarky. So, let me try again.
Every time the issue of race is brought up lots of folk get on the comments and equivocate and deny until everyone is convinced that since nothing can be done we should certainly do nothing. Brother, that’s not the SBC that I grew up in! The world is lost and over a billion people have never heard of Jesus? Well, we get to work. We spend money, we pray, we send people, we go ourselves, we don’t stop. Abortion on demand stains our land? We don’t say, ”Well shoot, even if we did get laws changed there would still be abortions so let’s do nothing.” No Sir! We speak out, we vote, we march, we preach and proclaim the truth. And everyone in America knows where we stand on this. Racial injustice cripples one generation after another….. Don’t tell me we can’t do better! We can. Black Lives Matter should not exist as an organization because the Church- especially the SOUTHERN Baptist Church- should be championing the cause of racial injustice at every turn. They never should have been needed. Football players kneeling should be old news since the Church was already standing up for the poor, the needy, the oppressed. Don’t tell me we can’t do it when the article above says we ARE doing it. And I know we can do it more and do it better. And we will know we are done when Jesus tells us, ‘Well done good and faithful servant.’
OK, Strider…maybe I’m behind on SNL. Never quite got into that. But you said, “everyone is convinced that since nothing can be done we should certainly do nothing.”
There are a range of reactions on the issue of race, even among those who don’t wholly accept the language of the academics. It is a mistake to classify everyone under the phrase above. There is no way you could put me under the quote above (and you didn’t specifically do so). I’m not sure for whom it is intended.
Amen Strider. William I agree with Strider and think he is spot on here.
Yeah. Well, I’d join you both but his target, apparently, is the population of Southern Baptists who believes nothing can be done.
William: That is the part I agree with, not only do they seemingly believe nothing can be done, they believe nothing should be done.
Interesting quotes (and interesting who said them.). I suppose this will reveal which way I lean in these discussions:
“When a person says “The church has hurt me” and they’re refusing to visit or join any local congregation of believers they have practically projected their hurt onto the entire universal body of Christ! They have assigned their offense to every possible Christian and Christian congregation imaginable. Practically, their distrust has reached universal proportions. In every case this is false.”
“Gossip can work its way through significant parts of the congregation. But I don’t think most churches are made up completely of gossips; sooner or later rumors and the like will die at the ears of the godly persons God places in most every local congregation. Usually it’s worth asking: “Are you saying that every person in the local church hurt you in this way?” Hopefully that gets us down to a smaller level.
“Stop saying, “The church hurt me.” It’s affecting your heart toward an entire congregation, many of whom are likely unaware and uninvolved in your hurt, and possibly affecting your heart toward all Christians everywhere. Don’t blame “the church.” Don’t spread your “hurt” over a wider area. If you do, it will dominate you…. Do realize that not every church hurt you and people are not “all the same.”
-Thabiti Anyabwile, “Should we stop saying ” The Church hurt me.”? (Article on Christianity.com) 2013.
“
To clarify, I have heard some great sermons from Thabiti, even some on race, but his most recent comments, are, I believe, simply mistaken, not accurate, and not helpful to black or white Christians.
100% agree. He’s gone off the deep end rencently, IMO – But you’re right Thabiti has preached some wonderful messages on a variety of topics some of which, in previous years, have been on race.
I’ve stated this before but I still remember the first time I ever heard him preach I literally sat with tears in my eyes… It was at I believe it was the 2008 T4G and his message Dealt with the gospel and racial relations…His most recent comments though are a far cry from that message.
I’m profoundly disappointed in him.
The MLK50 event has generated a lot of talk and not a small amount of that is in the I-hate-Russ-Moore category. Thankfully, none here. There are points worth discussing that have come out of it.
I’m sure some on this comment thread have seen this article already and others have not. But I think it does a good job of fairly laying out the different perspectives, and is especially helpful in pointing out the areas in which there is already widespread agreement. Here is to more light and less heat…
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/racial-reconciliation-mostly-almost-agree-likely-still-dont-agree/
It seems there are two responses to the quest for racial reconciliation. One response involves personal behavior. Many Southern Baptists would say, “I treat persons of all races courteously and with respect. What more do you want from me?” For most of our SBC folks that is true, and that is good as far as it goes. What these folks miss, though, is that we must also become involved, both personally and as a Convention, in rectifying institutional racism with which African-Americans struggle.
Mark,
Okay: you say “we must also become involved, both personally and as a Convention, in rectifying institutional racism with which African-Americans struggle.”
You are making that up brother. Where in the Bible does it tell us our mission is to rectify institutional sin?
Also, are there any current instances of institutional racism on the conventional level? Entities, EC, etc.? If there are please share it… Because there needs to be some firings.
I don’t think any reasonable person denies that there are certainly members within churches that are racist… And even churches that corporately practice racism… but due to our polity of church autonomy… What can we really do about that?
If the answer is to throw them out… How exactly is that to be accomplished and by what standard shall a church be deemed “racist enough to be disfellowshipped”?
Perhaps I am wrong but it would seem that we would have to move to a much more denominational form of polity in which we have regional bishops/overseers who are close enough to the churches to actually know the reality of the situation and provide adequate accountability… I am not arguing for that… I’m just stating that it would seem that would be necessary in order to effectively carry out “racist disfellowshipping”.
Institutional racism means that racism is codified in the institution. If there are such institutions they certainly need to be identified and denounced. If anyone is willing to name the institutions we can begin immediately.
Im a white man, what do I know about racism?
Thats the mantra.
I cant know how it feels.
I agree, that I haven’t experienced it. But I have experienced hate from others. I have experienced rificule because I am a Christian who sometimes seeks to shine a light among atheist. But I have neve experienced racism. Nor have I experienced slavery to a man -I’ve never been a slave. But most of us alive have never been a slave.
But it is simply wrong to say that because I am white I cant understand slavery or racism or discrimination or bias. I just cant understand racism in an experiental way. But I can understand the right way to treat others, even those not white. And I know the wrong way to treat others. That is what I need to understand in order to trear others right and to love them.
There is racism in our society. It is wrong and evil. There should not be racism in our churches, but I am sure that in many churches racist are members. That is sad and when we encounter those that treat others wrong we should call them out. That is something we should do.
Our main weapon against racism, both in the church and outside of it, is the Gospel.
We are not called to morally change society apart from proclaiming the Gospel to a fallen world. And that proclamation includes prayer for all, and fellowship among believers, and studying the Word, and doing the Word, which includes aiding the oppressed.
We have zero examples in the Bible, Old or New Testament, of social justice warring in a secular society. There was MUCH more inequities in Paul’s day. Women were treated as possessions, there was child labor, slavery, unequal treatment under law, and so forth. Yet we have no words from our Lord on when or how to battle these secular social ills, outside of loving each our brethren and sistren and proclaiming the Gospel.
We as individuals, as congregations, and as conventions should condemn racism whereve it is found.We shoud work to root it out, the best we can from our practices, we should call out those within our midst who act racially hateful, and we shoud examine ourselves daily before God and ask Him to rid us of sin, which might include racism.
All the rest is unBiblical.
If I have erred, please show me from the Word my error, and do me a great service,
Thanks.
amen
An incredibly insensitive statement, Mike.
If you want to learn about racism, stop acting like you KNOW EVERYTHING and sit with some black brothers and sisters and talk to them about their experience. Your eyes might be open and you might find that in fact you do not have the entire world figured out.
Dave, I hope you’ll reconsider your response and apologize. Nothing Mike said was insensitive and he didn’t deserve the other remark.
To the contrary, Mike’s comments about race on this thread and others have been intelligent and very well-written…asking fair questions and explaining his positions with thoughtfulness and grace. Thank you, Mike.
I’m with Dave, FWIW. I think it *was* insensitive; obviously you don’t see it the same way I do, and certainly you shouldn’t be persuaded by me saying “nuh-UH, was TOO,” so lemme give you an analogy and see if I can at least get you to see /why/ it seems insensitive.
You know how Mike has repeatedly (and sincerely, I believe) asked people to show him where in scripture he’s gone wrong? What if I’d take him up on that and started arguing theology? Nothing wrong with that on the surface, right?
But context is everything: I’m Jewish, and the extent of my exposure to the New Testament is that I’ve read most of Matthew very closely plus dribs and drabs from leafing through hotel-room Bibles.
With that background in mind, how wise, appropriate, or sensitive would it be for me to go “WELL ACTUALLY, Mike…”?
Not very! Even if I stuck to my incredibly narrow sphere of ALMOST sorta knowing what I’m talking about and argued only from Matthew, there’s an entire universe of Christian scripture and tradition that might contradict whatever I said. Almost certainly, I’d be talking nonsense without even realizing it — not because I’m stupid or wicked, but because of a *breathtakingly* arrogant choice to see myself as an expert despite having chosen not to gain even basic knowledge.
This is a Christian site with plenty of pastors and knowledgeable laymen. For me to say “WELL BUDDY, LEMME TELL YOU WHAT MESSAGE YOU SHOULD GET FROM THE BIBLE” would just… words fail me as to how ridiculous and inappropriate that would be. If I wanted to engage theologically, the respectful way to do it would be to ask questions that acknowledge my ignorance, and to receive the answers gracefully and thoughtfully instead of arguing that they can’t possibly be right. I hope you can agree with that!
For me, the way Mike talks about race relations is a fairly close analogy to me lecturing Christians on theology — his basic stance of “WELL, BLACK PEOPLE, LET ME TELL YOU HOW WRONG YOU ARE ABOUT WHETHER YOU’RE IMPACTED BY STRUCTURAL RACISM” is just… it seems /super/-disinterested in being polite, respectful, or humble. Or loving.
Does that at least make sense? You don’t have to agree or anything, but can you see where I’m coming from when I call it insensitive?
Dave,
Please point out which statement is insensitive.
Besides, I am not talking about other’s experience, but only what I am called to do, which is what the church is called to do.
And I also left the door open for correction: show me Biblically where i am wrong.
And neither am I denying that racism exists.
Neither am i denying that many in the world treat colored people wrong.
Neither I am denying that the SBC should seek to apppoint minorities to various positions, including entity heads, when possible. In fact, I suggested that, like the policy of the NFL, the SBC should be required to at least interview a minority for every major open position.
And neither I am denying that the SBC should, as brother McKissic pointed out, repent of its mis-use of the Bible in its justification of promoting and encouraging enslaving blacks.
But what I do know, Dave, as far as I do know it, is what the Bible says: that we are to treat others with love and respect. And that we are not to judge by external measures, like skin or gender or nationality, or economic level, or social status, among others. So open the Scripture and explain from there the error I am making.
Because what I see is a lot of shaming and blaming people just because they are white. Even by white folk as yourself.
Mike,
Great comment!
The social justice movement is a far left extreme political movement that has seeped into the SBC. It is foundational to Communism/Marxism and its primary purpose is to gain political advantage. Christians have no business being part of this evil. Further, it only serves to divide our convention. Understand this clearly, we will never succumb to this evil, we will work to put this dragging out of race baiting to rest.
Mark Mitchell: Forgive what I am about to say and if it is not allowed by the keepers of the blog I understand, but that is a crazy statement Mark.
Your statement hasn’t offended me. However, it seems to be born out of a lack of knowledge or understanding. I suggest you research “Social Justice” and discover its background and true meaning.
Rather condescending, Mark.
Nothing wrong with this.
Wow!!! Am I looking at a division in SBC life surrounding the messaging of MLK 50?
To attack social justice is to attack MLK & The Civil Rights Movement, slave revolts, ‘63 March on Washington…I could go on & on. There’s really a movement in the SBC to question, undermine & devalue these movements & current battles for equality, inclusion, & justice? SMH.
Houston…we got a problem!!!!
This is the problem with these discussions. In order to immunize positions from being criticized, people work to attach the thing that is being criticized to things that should never be criticized as if they are one and the same. It’s never true and it always lacks a genuine flavor.
Mark,
I agree wholeheartedly with your comments.
Hope you and yours are doing well.
You are sitting up a false comparison where by you try to claim the higher ground. I will not surrender it to you.
Are you talking to me or Dwight?
Dwight
When confronted with truth, that usually can lead fairly quickly to the end of a discussion. I appreciate u bowing out, rather than answering my question. Because truth is real & it stings & hurt. Thanks Greg, for engaging but disengaging @ the point of being confronted with truth.
“Present day believers in absolute truth, identified with virtue and justice are neither willing nor desirable companions for the defenders of social justice.” ~United Nations Report on social Justice
I agree Mark. Good comments!
Dwight,
You may equate MLK50 to the civil rights movement. But in every worldy endeavor there are those things which stray from truth. In every one. For example, in every church or congregation, there are probably members who are not saved. In the SBC, there are probably preachers/pastors who are not saved. And in the secular world, whuch includes the civil rights movement, there were men who were not saved.
But we as Christians are not to follow men but ratr the Word of God. So to lump all those things you mention together with some serons from MLK50 is an error. There is nothing wrong with pursuing secular social justice, and I a glad MLK stood up and led a peaceful resistance, and it was wrong and evil forhim to be assainated. But that doesn’t mean every social justice speach since then is 100% full of truth.
Therefore, Dwight, to lump all social justice speeches together as truth even when many of them contain error, is a problem.
Mark’s comment deserves to be read if only that folks here get a taste of the fringe hard right.
His comment deserves to be read, it also reveals an element within the SBC that will forever make a certain element of us feel unwelcome & unwanted. Long time since I’ve read a comment that blatantly rejectful Of social justice. Don’t know if he represents 1% or 25% nevertheless, horrifying.
Wow. Let us hope your heart does not represent the majority in the SBC.
By using the word “institutional” I did not mean that our SBC institutions are racist. I did mean that there exist in the USA systemic problems that need solving. The prophets of ancient Israel condemned national sins.
Mark, my comment was directed at Mark Mitchell, not you.
I see many suggestions that Baptists need to admit that poverty, food insecurity, housing, employment disparities, poor government schools, etc., are unfair and tragic, and that much of this is a byproduct of historical racism or other injustice. That’s easy enough, I think.
But what steps can Baptists ethically and morally take that would credibly eradicate these effects from American systems? Many see gradualist, one-off solutions as a kind of unjust delay, and others see socialized solutions as unethical or ineffective. What solutions clear both hurdles?
Jon,
These are really good questions. Here are some suggestions that I have seen in micro practice, that could become an amazing movement if practiced by all who claim to be a part of the SBC:
1. Business owners commit to paying a living wage based on their cost of living. Hobby Lobby as a business puts this into practice on a national scale. Cost of living has more than outpaced minimum wage in this country and as such many who have low skills or education do not have access to employment where they can make a living and support their families. This disproportionally affects minorities more than any other group. This would be a step towards economic equity.
2. Commitment on the part of SBC members to hire convicted felons and to support “ban the box” initiatives in their states. Recidivism is largely caused by a lack of opportunities for employment for those who have run afoul of the legal system. Because African American and Latino men are frequently prosecuted more harshly than Caucasians they are more likely to be denied access to the job market. Ending this injustice would go a long way towards expanding opportunities minorities in our country.
3. Better access to loans and housing at lending institutions where SBC members have a say/influence. Minorities are more likely to be denied a loan for a house or car. Not on the basis of credit or the ability to pay, but simply based on the color of their skin. NPR recently did a fascinating podcast on this issue focusing on loan practices of major banks in relationship to minority candidates with provable income vs. caucasian candidates with less demonstrable income streams. Home ownership is a leading indicator of economic mobility and denial of home loans is a major reason why many minorities are less able to access upward economic mobility.
4. Protection of and reformation of the federal safety net. The current polices in place in regards to SNAP (food stamps) not only do not encourage economic opportunity, but cut have hampered the best avenue to better jobs- training and education. If SBC members would lobby GOP politicians to : incentivize work by creating a cascading level of SNAP benefits rather than a benefits cliff- here benefits end once you make $1 over the max- there would be more opportunity for people on SNAP to work their way up the economic ladder. Further if SBC members would lobby their GOP politicians to stop trying to cut SNAP funds, states would have more resources to create job training programs- which are the first items hit when SNAP cuts are passed on to states. Training and education funds equip people to get better paying, more stable jobs.
I hope this helps to begin to answer your very good question.
Ryan,
Thanks for responding to Jon. I was going to say some of what you said, but u did a better job than I could of. I set out to respond a couple of times only to discover I was going to have to write an essay & I didn’t have, nor did I want to take that kind of time responding. Your answer is more than sufficient. Blessings my friend!!!
Ryan, thanks for your response. All of those are things I can imagine some Baptists supporting (and even more supporting them as good practices).
Alan Cross wrote a new post a bit later, and we had a bit of back and forth along these same lines. If this thread weren’t 80-deep already, I’d probably say something similar here, but it is, so I’ll just point over there …
Have a blessed Lord’s day.
I see I have been called some names i.e. hard right fringe, 1%, 25% etc. and a rejection of what I have posted without actually dealing with what I have posted. The facts I have laid out both about the source of social justice movement and the UN statement stand in truth regardless.