Paige Patterson’s Decision to Speak Alongside Glenn Beck

At it’s founding Patterson was on the Board of Governors and as you see had continuing membership during the halcyon days of the socalled Resurgence.
http://www.seekgod.ca/cnp.n-pa.htm#patterson

For a larger framework of the religious political strategies in which Patterson operated, see Garry Wills remarkable history of religious politics in America, American Christianities. You can get a copy now at most Barnes and Noble for six bucks.
Explores the wider world of CNP, Marvin Olasky’s World Magazine and how they influenced and entertwined strategies and networks of the Southern Baptist Convention among others; James Dobson and what not.

Thanks. That looks like a research paper or something that someone did on the council. I can’t tell how accurate their info is, but have no reason to dispute it either.

I still don’t find anything wrong with the group. Even the author of that article says that left wing groups have similar groups that advance their agendas.

But thanks for sharing.

World magazine is the first good magazine you’ve ever mentioned Steve.

Brandon, you are right on.

Everyone has an opinion.

fOX,

You make us very glad that the CR took place. Every time you and Gene and Ron West comment, it thrills us more and more and more that God used Patterson and Pressler and Rogers and many, many others to bring about the CR.

David

Noll a moderate? The same guy who helped draft the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy?

Check that out against the Half of one percent vote in San Antonio Pressler made into a Mandate; and ask Richard Jackson if he buys your conclusion.

Stephen:

My conclusion of what? That the conservative position won? That is unassailable, unless someone is living in a parallel universe.

You really haven’t made a point here.

SA was close, but the Moderates had the opportunity to come back next year, and the year after, and the year after. They never won, even when they had all the denominational machinery at their disposal.

The last time the Moderates tried was the Vestal/Crumpler ticket. Vestal spent a year traveling around telling how bad the conservatives were etc. The Moderates put a big push on that year. John Baugh probably spent more money that year than any other. And the Moderates lost by bigger margins than previously.

I agree with you God decides what is true.

I have a deep and abiding conviction from experience and witness and whatever thinking capacity, faculty, I have; the greater Truth, the Higher Virtue, the STronger light from this episode in Baptist life is with the folks who broke away from Pressler and Patterson and the CR’s designs, is with those estranged by half of one percent of the Vote in San Antonio.

I’m going to the Gospel of St. Luke 24:45
“. . . Then He opened their minds to understand the scriptures”

The Christian faith is NOT a “religion of the book.”
Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God,
a Word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living”.

If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter,
Christ, the Eternal Word of the living God,
must, through the Holy Spirit,
“open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.”

Christiane,

While I agree that the Spirit has to make the Bible effectual in a person’s life, I think you’re falling into the trap of making a distinction where one shouldn’t be made. The Christian faith is a religion of the book, and it is a religion of the Spirit. They’re not against one another, and it’s interesting to see the theological bent of all who try to put them against one another.

Consider your very argument. Jesus didn’t speak directly to the disciples some new revelation. He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. He illuminated the Book. What good is Jesus opening the minds of disciples to understand a Scripture with errors?

Hi Darby. Long time no talk.

IF Christianity is Christo-centric, the Holy Scriptures become meaningful. If the focus is taken off of Christ, Who is the ‘fullness of revelation’, the One Who reveals God to us more completely than any other source;
if the focus is taken off of HIM, then the person attempting to interpret the Holy Scriptures may not find their way.
It is Christ’s Holy Spirit that illuminates that way. We can’t lean on our own understanding.

As to Joe’s argument about Christ and St. Paul, if we want to determine the lens that we need to understand Scripture, is it to be done by reading all Scripture through the lens of the Creator, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity? Or by using the words of a creature as the lens to interpret Scripture.

Keeping Our Lord at the center is a perspective that makes a huge difference when applying ‘doctrines’ in ways that honor the Royal Law of Christ, not violate it, as was done when Dr. Klouda and her family were made to suffer.

The inspired (God-breathed) Scriptures point always towards Christ, when read by the light of the Holy Spirit. Any interpretation that does not honor Him and His Commandments cannot be ‘of the Spirit’.

No, C.B.
Christ Himself IS the fullness of revelation.

We have seen many PEOPLE mis-use Scripture to lead others astray.
My goodness, have we ever seen that.
But, if the Holy Scriptures, are read, keeping the focus on Christ, then we do not get lost.

“But, if the Holy Scriptures, are read, keeping the focus on Christ, then we do not get lost.”

Well then L’s,

Keep the focus on Christ. Repent and believe the biblical gospel as Christ alone presented it and be saved. Quit leaning on the Sacraments and Canon Law for your salvation.

To quote cb scott

Well then L’s,

Keep the focus on Christ. Repent and believe the biblical gospel as Christ alone presented it and be saved. Quit leaning on the Sacraments and Canon Law for your salvation.

Amen!

L’s,

You are trying to slip the traces on that one. Are the Scriptures God’s final and complete revelation to man or not?

Christiane,

That is a common argument used to make the Scripture pliable to the whims and wiles of man. A Christ-centered interpretation is absolutely essential to proper interpretation of Scripture. I agree. However, it was not while Christ walked the earth, which is what the gospels point to, that is his fullest revelation of himself to man. God, in his sovereignty, chose the apostle Paul to reveal the mystery hidden for ages. You cannot come to a proper understanding of Scripture without the NT letters. Period. They are the fullness of Revelation. I wonder sometimes if folks who interpret Scripture the way you’re advocating realize that the gospels were written after Christ died by associates of the very apostles they want to belittle.

“God, in his sovereignty, chose the apostle Paul to reveal the mystery hidden for ages.”

I disagree.
The fullness of God’s revelation is the Person of Jesus Christ.
If you want to learn about the Father, you look at the Son. If you see Him, you see the Father.

I know you know this basic teaching of our Christian faith.
Please don’t ever lose sight of it, Darby, because Christ, from the first years of Christianity is represented as an ‘anchor’ of our faith. St. Paul never contradicted his Lord, although some men have chosen to interpret the words written by St. Paul in ways that have contradicted the teachings of Our Lord.
These men are wrong to do that.

from 2 Timothy 9,10 this:
“This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”

St. Paul is the servant of Our Lord, and St. Paul could never ask of any Christian to apply a doctrine in a way that would violate the Commandments of Our Lord.
I do believe that men have chosen to ignore that fact, and have abused some of the teachings of St. Paul in ways that have caused harm to innocent people. I can see now, from your explanation, how it is that they might have gotten lost when they took their eyes off of Our Lord.

St. Paul never took his eyes off of Our Lord.
If you don’t want to interpret St. Paul in the light of the Words and Actions of Christ, then at least take a really good look at 1 Cor. 13. and see St. Paul’s teachings in the context of his own words there, which so beautifully point to Lord Christ.
In the light of that 13th Chapter, could any man ever interpret and apply Pauline teachings in ways that would dishonor Christ the Lord by bringing pain to innocent people? No way.
Not a chance.

And yet some people have hurt others, claiming to follow St. Paul’s teachings. They got lost, following their own understanding.

Christiane,

Who wrote the “Royal Law of Christ”?

Who wrote the New Testament epistles?

If a MAN interprets any part of the NT in a way that violates Christ’s Commandments,
then that MAN has made an error.

Christiane,

If you believe your comment #40, then you would understand that Christ himself “hurts” those who rebel against his will and Word. I don’t understand how someone with such an apparent passion for Christ’s honor would allow him to be dishonored in order to clothe rebels in some sort of fake dignity.

James calls love “the royal law” (Jm 2:8); Jesus calls love of God and love of neighbor the most important commandment. (Mark 12: 28 – 34). And why is it most important – because love is the very essence and nature of God.

quote below is from the book ‘Surprised by Joy’:
“Love is not a duty; it is our destiny. It is the language that Jesus spoke and we are called to speak it so that we can converse with him. It is the food that they eat in God’s new world, and we must acquire a taste for it here and now. It is the music God has written for all his creatures to sing and we are called to learn it and practice it now.”

I know, I had to edit myself a couple times 🙂

Brandon, before you start agreeing w Joe, you need to read some of Dildays books and listen to his sermons, he is conservative and subscribes to the fundamentals of the faith.

Especially back at the beginning innerranct was never more than a code word, I would agree with you that politically ( in SBC terms) that Dilday is moderate, but I have never heard a liberal word come out of his mouth, or read one in his writings

of course I still can’t get a great definition of innerrancy and continue to wonder if it was so important why that word itself does not appear in the bfm….

oy vay

Before dubbing Dilday a conservative or something else, shouldn’t you examine his beliefs? What did he believe about the Bible? My understanding has always been that Russell Dilday was an inerrantist who rejected the political agenda of the Patterson-Pressler coalition. He identified as part of the moderate coalition much like Richard Jackson and other theological conservatives. They were simply conservatives with much less narrow parameters for denominational cooperation. Same can be said about Baylor’s David Garland. Theologically, there is no real difference between folks like Russell Dilday, David Garland, Timothy George and David Dockery. Heck, look at George and Dockery: both have hired egalitarians to teach theology at their respective schools. The whole Baylor = liberal and professor who teaches at Baylor = liberal thing is really bad logic. If I conceded the former, using your logic how is Dilday “sharing the gospel” in the classroom of Truett seminary any different than Paige Patterson sharing the stage with a Mormon heretic to share the gospel? I think Dilday has been at B.H. Carroll for quite some time and makes 6-figures as some sort of communications person with Buckner. I understand why folks like Brandon wish the word “inerrancy” had made it’s way into BFM2000. Southern Baptists have been obsessed with that word in ways that other equally conservative denominations have not. Nonetheless, why is the word needed when the concept of inerrancy is already contained within the document? The Constitution does not contain the phrase “separation of church and state” but only a fool would deny that the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment require some sort of functional separation between the institutions of church and state. That’s a point that even Paige Patterson can affirm! All neo-orthodox language was removed when the BFM was updated. Jesus as criterion is gone. With the 1963 version, the Bible was the “record of God’s revelation.” Now the Bible has simply become “God’s revelation.” Some like Joe say that moderates used a loophole. There was no loophole. The BFM said what it said. It was drafted with the assistance of noted neoorthodox scholar Dale Moody. Words have meaning. And any person who is familiar with the differences between neoorthodoxy and conservative evangelicalism/fundamentalism would readily recognize that the Bible as a “record of revelation” is distinctly different the Bible as “revelation.” Granted back then the document did not hold some creedal quality. Nonetheless, neoorthodoxy… Read more »

BDW,

I do agree that denominationalism inside and outside the SBC should be less narrow, especially when the Gospel is concerned though we’ve talked that I think internally the BFM2000 should be affirmed.

Whether or not Dilday is an inerrantist doesn’t make me dislike him or think he shouldn’t teach. Some say those who don’t hold to inerrancy are heretics, I wouldn’t go so far but it greatly concerns me. I even said earlier that I think Dilday is a great man, but there is a reason besdies the whack job conspiracy theorists’ version as to why he is at Baylor and not Southern or SWBTS any longer. Though I do agree that his disdain for the CR brought too harsh of punishment on him.

Brandon,

What is a “whack job conspiracy theory/theorists” in this particular context?

Big Daddy,

In the spirit of fair play, I don’t think Dilday was the “most” moderate theologian in the arena at the time. However, I remember (it has been some years now) him writing about how he chose to designate himself. He used the word, “moderate.”

He also chose to side with the moderates, and eventually join them. So, even if he was not the most “moderate” in his theology (and I’m willing to grant that was the case in the early years) he chose sides.

He also created a very clear “us” versus “them” at SWBTS. As a conservative (before I knew there was a movement and got involved) I learned what happened if you did not agree with a professors beatification of Dilday.

So, I partly agree with your assessment and partly disagree. I go out on the limb and say, “if Dilday was the worst theology” afoot in our seminaries, there never would have been a CR. He was more facilitator than foot soldier in the fight — in my opinion.

Just for the record, someone mentioned how the SWBTS was one happy family under Dilday. I didn’t see this as the case, but I did see a really significant move in that direction when Hemphill came.

As you can tell I was very upset at how Dilday was treated, but I will also say that I have alot if respect for Ken Hemphill and the job he did under very tough circumstances following Dilday

Hemphil’s treatment is another topic for good people being treated badly when Patterson wanted to come back to TX. And hemphill is a good CR boy.

As I said politically moderate theologically conservative. There are alot of us down here in the great state of TX. He got rid of liberal professors. Name a liberal proff at swbts, there were not any. As I said Swbts was where the conservatives sent their students in those days because swbts was THE conservative seminary

SWBTS is a shadow of the greatness that it once was in sbc life

Jim said of Dilday, “He got rid of liberal professors. Name a liberal proff at swbts, there were not any.”

Jim, I was a student at SWBTS in the early 90’s under Dilday. I am not slandering Dilday. I believe him to be an honest man. BUT, I had a professor who cursed in class, told off-color jokes, and told us a story of how he “flipped off” another driver. I had another professor who was a deconstructionist and told us about his sermon titled, “God, Our Mother.” There were others. If you look at where many of the professors ended up who left after Dilday was gone, you will see that many were at least moderates.

SSBN,

And don’t take everything Mark Noll says as absolute. In addition, Pinnock started well, but for some reason unknown to me at least, fell away from the truth. I have heard from those who had him in class in his early years that he was truly inspiring. But now, they scratch their heads in amazement at how far he has drifted from the Truth.

Joe, that word ‘inerrant’, do you define it to mean that, if you ‘isolate’ a part of Scripture out of the context of the totality of the whole of Scripture, that you can use interpret that part as a ‘separate’ entity?

If this is confusing, I can try to explain my question differently.

Ron,

Let me add, as I should have last night, another comment on the Dilday-Patterson comparison you made.

It is my opinion that had Dilday been given the opportunity to speak at the LU commencement he would have done so. I believe he would have also said things similar to that of which Patterson did as well. For after all, just like Patterson, he is first and foremost a gospel preacher.

CB: Have you or anyone on this board read the Unfetterred Word.
Again, Robert Marsh, ADrian Rogers classmate at NOBTS; Marsh’s 90 address to his deacons at 2nd Ponce is a strong antidote to your missleanings in your lengthy statement above, as is Susan Shaw’s book on the women of Jerry Vines West Rome Baptist.
The views of Mark Noll or Robert Tenery. I Have to go with Mark Noll everytime.

As Dilday was treated poorly my men who shuld not have been trustees, the entire SBC is now being treated poorly by the bootlicker trustees at swbts. Patterson continues to do irreparable damage to a oncegreat institution.

Do you remember a couple years ago when he held the newsconference stating the day of declining enrollments were over, not so much.

He has eliminated retiree health insurance, put the EM school in peril by terminating the counseling degree , has a bunch of VPs driving company cars !!! Is building a non needed “state of the art chapel, privately funded but the seminary will have to maintain it at no small cost. The working atmosphere is toxic, proffs are afraid of running afoul of the president.

Of course truett, logsden, bh Carroll and dbu are thanking their lucky stars that Patterson is there, and hoping he never retires.

Karen Bullock, one of Patterson’s dismissals, is now doing a grand work with Daniel Carro and the Baptist World Alliance.
In short time it looks like Ben Cole and Wade Burleson may write the final chapter on Criswell’s abysmal legacy for the Southern Baptist Convention through his Amnon, Paige Patterson.

Steve,

I have no idea what Wade may do. It is my opinion that no such book will be coming from Ben.

Steve,

In an effort to continue to be honest with you, I think the removal of Karen Bullock from her position at SWBTS was a mistake.

DBUs enrollment shot up because Gary Cook drives his recruiters and professors alike in recruitment. He took a school on the verge of bankruptcy and turned it around, the man is a near genius and a workaholic. His buildings are multipurpose buildings that he built out of need. Word on the street is that he is working hard to get as many proffs ( and students) as he can out of the demise of the swbts counseling program – any bets against him?

Patterson can and does make unilateral decisions then demands fealty from ” his” trustees. My facts are true, do a bit of research. I still know people at swbts, and I do get emotional at what he is doing to this once great institution

“He took a school on the verge of bankruptcy and turned it around, the man is a near genius and a workaholic.”

Jim, I will not argue with you about the statement above. But I bet the farm that you will argue with me when I say:

In 1992 Paige Patterson “He took a school on the verge of bankruptcy and turned it around, the man is a near genius and a workaholic.”

“His buildings are multipurpose buildings that he built out of need.”

I wish Gary Cook well. Can you say you wish Patterson well in surviving the current national financial crisis? Or would you rather the institution fail so you can continue to address everything Patterson in a bad light?

Brandon, there is some truth to what you say; but again in the world of larger truths there is Garry Wills American Chrisitianities, and Mark Noll’s America’s God and Harold Bloom’s The American Religion to repetitively offer three examples.
BDiddDadWeaver has review Pam Curso’s husband’s book on George Truett.
Broaden your perspective under the leaderhip of the Holy Spirit and in about ten years with Ben Cole you will have pilgrimmed to a place near Big Daddy, Karen Bullock and myself.
In the meantime take a second look at the British Documentary of early 90’s on Patterson and Criswell, Thy Kingdom Come.
And this; I have to believe if the novel is ever written–it would kinda be like the Novel Modern Baptists the name of the author I used to be able to recall; when the Patterson novel is written, his ongoing intrigue with Criswell’s wife will be central to the development of his character; may even overhwelm wife Dot.
Criswell’s wife should be played by Judi Dench if it makes a movie; Betty was her name, Criswell, right?

I forgot to say OpenMind in my riff on the Holy Spirit as you grow in perspective, Brandon.
With an open mind under the leadership of the Holy Spirit.
And here is the linkto the Novel

http://www.lsu.edu/lsupress/bookPages/9780807131664.html

What was Criswell’s daughter’s name that sang The King is Coming in Dallas SBC ’74?

Jim,

My goodness.

I go to DBU. Yes, Dr. Cook is a great recruiter and leader, one of the best presidents in America. But, DBU has gone up massively over the past few years and one of, if not the biggest, reason why is the campus upgrades. A $24 milllion chapel, a beauitful new bookstore, new student townhomes, upgrades to the baseball fields all in the past 3 years and a goregeous new academic building going up as we speak. That’s recruitment at its finest.

Anyway, you won’t be objective and I don’t want this post to turn into another bickerfest that gets a comments section closed down like the 700-comment BFM2000 that is closed.

Hope you enjoyed the post even though it was about Patterson. Blessings, bro.

Jim,

It was Boot Strappin’-Baloney Eatin’ trustees not “bootlickers” that you referenced me calling them. And it is true, our boards are congregated with several these days, I will not argue against that nor will I back down from saying it. Its true.

But your comments about Patterson will not stand scrutiny. Are you going to tell me VPs did not drive company cars when Dilday or Hemphill served in the “Big Chair” at SWBTS?

Jim, in all truth the financial woes of SWBTS are the same woes as plague both religious and secular institutions right now. You cannot blame all of that on Paige Patterson. What you can blame on him at the present is making an effort to keep the institution afloat. Do you want him to sit and do nothing during a time of national financial crisis?

Ask Steve about the cuts at Birmingham Southern. Everybody is cutting something.

CB

pattersons moves defy logic. I will never understand hos decision to cut the counselling program, not only are 60% of the EM school students enrolled in that program, the need they fulfill in the world, solid Christian licensed professional counsellors of whom my own family used during a time of need – and according to Brandon I may need again soon 🙂

check to number of VPs in the Dilday or Hemphill years. If finances are tough why cut one of your most popular programs.

If Patterson were growing the seminary, I would give him grudging respect, however the enrollment continues to fall. What are the trustees doing? Anything?

Jim,

I have no idea why he is cutting the counseling program. He is the president. Presidents do those things as part of their job. Maybe he is going to revamp the counseling program after the one he revamped at SEBTS. I have no idea.

All I know is that he “raised SEBTS from the dead” and made it our best seminary and he was generally always good to me. I will probably never understand what happened in that last year. I don’t talk to him much any more. But that is water under the bridge. Life goes on and God has certainly blessed me in the meantime. I also know he is not Satan or even the Antichrist. Although he did write the NAC on The Revelation. I am sure it is from a premil position. For that I am thankful. 🙂

Brandon: See my comment #144 roughly as the numbers change on a daily basis around her.
And in fairness you got to let everybody know where the emoticons are in the board. As it standsnow you administrators and fundy insiders have the advantage of us progressive light seekers here(insert some kind of emoticon with a winky smile; borderline Hallelujah wave or something; not charismatic but something that suggests I see that Hand back there)

I heard about that confrontation, but did not see it. I can be who got the most physically out of control and who remained in control, based on other performances I have seen from these two men.

Big Daddy,

I look forward to reading your book. I am sure it will be much better reading than “Hardball Religion.” At least, I am sure it will be much more objective.

Matt,

Don’t you know Don Quixote can read you mind? He’s like the old Alan Parson’s Project song “Eye in the sky”

Wade is the Eye in the sky
Looking at you–oo–oo
He can read your mind

Matt,

He footnoted his own blog as a research source.

Did you read the Cole-Duren review? What about the Peter Lumpkins Review?

I bet BDW would write a fine book, but it will contain a bias, as any book that any of us would write would contain. Still, I would be inclined to read his book.

While you are waiting for BDW’s book, I hope you will take a close look at Garry Wills American Christianities; currently a steal at your local Barnes and Noble; 6 bucks.

Stephen:

I checked out this website. It looks so corny and uses such inflammatory language that I immediately dismissed it. It also refers people to the CBF. The CBF has not set a course that very many churches have wanted to follow.

Anyone can put up a website, make outlandish claims etc. But getting people and churches to act usually takes much more than that.

Steve,

Yes and Yes. I have also read McBeth’s unpublished history of the SBC.

Steve, why is it that you always and I mean always want to portray anyone who has the opposing view of SBC history from you as a goat herding idiot? Steve, I confess that I came from an uncivilized background from you and most other folks. But reading books was something I did both before and after Christ in my life.

BTW, I debated James a couple of times myself in VA. He lost then also. 🙂

BTW Steve,

For the record. Robinson James was a classic liberal. He was also, in my opinion, a theological dwarf.

So I guess Robert Tenery and Bill Powell are theological Giants; is that I am to assume?
I am glad you like Ron Rash. That gives me some hope.
RAsh, like me, is a fan of Cormac McCarthy; though Rash brings much more to the table than I do to consider such things.
So if not from me, on behalf of Rash and Preacher McIntyre in Serena; consider googling up and reading Tom Conoboy’s “Suttree as a Barefoot Jesus”. And when you take John Killian in a couple weeks to go see Robert Duvall in Get Low; and you must see the movie and et Killian to go whether you go duet or together or with your families or on the Church van; do go see the movie.
And when you do think about what a loss for American Cinema it will be that Duvall didn’t get to portray Suttree 15 years ago; not instead of The Apostle, but as a complement to his Body of work.
Get Low was written by a fellow from North Alabama, and my friend Lucas Black, of Speake, near Moulton or whatever the town is, costars with Bill Murray.
This thing hsa Killian written all over it; so go see it. Will help you reconcile the things you were reading before you met Jesus with the things after.
I do hope in time you will read Noll on Lincoln and help Volfan understand it. There is not much I can do for him.

Steve,

I said Robinson James was a theological dwarf. I did not hint or imply that every person who was/is not of my persuasion was/is so very theological deficient. That is just not the case.

As to thew two you mentioned; Yes, Tenery is a theological giant. Bill Powell would not be considered to be a theological giant, yet he was on the right side. 🙂

Steve,

I am pretty sure that my son interviewed Cormac McCarthy right after or before one of his movies came out. He sent me two of McCarthy’s books for my birthday a couple of years back. I started reading “The Road” but I got tired of it.

I did read “All the Pretty Horses” several years ago. That was about all of McCarthy I have really enjoyed. I think “No Country for Old Men” was a waste of ink and paper and the movie is not worth a repeat.

Stephen and CB:

I think that what plagues some books about the SBC is the fact that not many of the conservative leaders are willing to sit down with the people who are disposed to the moderate narrative. The conservatives don’t feel (and I think they are right) that they are going to get a fair shake from some of these writers.

The consequence of this is that some things that are said go unrebutted by primary sources.

The best histories are done by people who have equal access to both sides of the controversy.

I have a friend who is a seminary prof now. He got interviews with conservative and moderate leaders in the mid 90s. Pressler, Patterson, Cecil Sherman, John Baugh and others. They saw his as an honest person, and he is.

I am not sure that his interviews have ever been published. But the thing that struck me about what he found was Cecil Sherman’s insistence that Baptists ought not to have any theological confession that would apply to denomination posts other than “good faith and good sense”. He refused to define that any further for my friend.

Even the Shurden website that you referred me to suggested to those who have left the SBC that they should refuse to put down in writing what they believe because it would be divisive.

That issue in a nutshell is the whether the Baptist community should have a meaningful confession of faith and whether that confession should apply to denominational life. Conservatives believe that there should be. The Moderate position, generally, beyond the doctrines of priesthood of the believer and a couple other matters, is that if there is a confession, it should allow such wide latitude for those who interpret it differently.

I know that there are lots of details involved in that, but that is the basic issue as I see it.

L’s,

I am glad you read Ammerman. Now go and get Hefley’s little books and read them. But before you do, I would like to ask you to find about five or six of Paul David Washer’s sermons on the internet and listen intently to them.

L’s,

Ammerman was required reading at SEBTS in 1995. It was one book that we were required to read when we took a class on the SBC. Dr. Danny Akin taught that class and since he is the President of the seminary now, I would presume it is still required reading.

Blessings,
Tim

Tim,

You should not have revealed that. Now Tom Parker will begin to think that SEBTS promoted open dialogue during the Patterson administration. We don’t want to give him the wrong idea.

I read her book from its scholarly perspective as a sociological study. I was interested to know if Southern Baptists considered the book to have scholarly integrity. Thanks for sharing that it was ‘required reading’ at SEBTS. I think that answers my question about the perception of its fairness.

L’s:

Like most books, it has good stuff and some things that could have been written better.

I prefer Paul Pressler’s book because he was one of the architects of the CR. You can see what motivated him and why he acted as he did. It is one person’s perspective, however. Not a complete survey of the SBC.

I believe that Nancy Ammerman, as a professional, has some recognition for her scholarly work. Her book is an interesting study. It does not seem to me to be ‘slanted’ towards any particular point-of-view, but instead takes an impartial look at the goings-on of the SBC in transition.

I have my first degree in sociology, as an academic major, but did not pursue research as a research-fellow at UNC at Chapel Hill. Instead, I chose to work in my city as a case-worker and I married at that time also. I never did lose my interest in sociological research, though, and you have to admit, for someone like me, the SBC ‘in transition’ is fascinating as portrayed by Nancy Ammerman’s study. I have not read any of Paul Pressler’s work. Did he ever comment on the Ammerman study, as far as you know? Thanks, if you can help.

With your interest in Sociology, Chrisitiane, I think you will want to find Ellen Rosenberg’s Southern Baptists in Transition. As a secular Jew and teaching anthropologist, you can imagine how fascinated she became with Mississippi Baptists among others.
Do find her book; it’s invaluable.

I have never heard Pressler comment on Ammerman’s work.

Fox,

I dont need to read Helen Lee Turner’s assessment. I was in it to bring the SBC back to the Bible, and away from liberalism. I was there, and I’m glad that I was able to vote for the men, who led the charge to “kick” the liberals and those who allowed them to be in leadership positions in the SBC(moderates) out!

David

Bill,

Now, you’ve done made me mad. If Lee had the guns and ammunition and food and medicine that the North had…everyone would’ve been whistling Dixie today. Lee was a great General, and defeated the Yankees often with less men, less supplies, less everything.

Dont come down here saying things like that. You’ll not be a happy camper after the words leave your mouth.

🙂

DAvid

I couldn’t resist.

Jim said of Dilday, “He got rid of liberal professors. Name a liberal proff at swbts, there were not any.”

Jim, I was a student at SWBTS in the early 90?s under Dilday. I am not slandering Dilday. I believe him to be an honest man. BUT, I had a professor who cursed in class, told off-color jokes, and told us a story of how he “flipped off” another driver. I had another professor who was a deconstructionist and told us about his sermon titled, “God, Our Mother.” There were others. If you look at where many of the professors ended up who left after Dilday was gone, you will see that many were at least moderates.

Yep, CB is right. Had Lee listened to Longstreet, the South might have won. Also, had Stonewall Jackson not been killed, things might have been different as well. Also, as a sidenote, my great-great grandfather rode with Forrest’s cavalry. He was a sargeant.

John, also, who knows what would’ve happened if the South had won??????? Who really knows????? That’s all pure speculation.
I do know how bad the carpetbaggers were that came down South and pillaged it. That was nice. Stealing land, money, and other valuables. Raping women. Bullying people, etc. It made Southern people really feel good about Yankees.

🙂

David

BTW,

Slavery would have ended without that bloody war. (And it was a bloody war. In three days at Gettysburg 58,000 Americans died. That is more than we lost in ten years in Southeast Asia.)
Technology would have made slavery unprofitable. Also, the thickheaded Southern Baptists would have finally realized the Bible did not condone slavery, but refuted it. The Spirit of God would have not allowed Christian men and women to stay silent once they knew the truth.

I can’t help but believe that greed deep in the hearts of men was far more the cause of that war than a desire to free the slaves.

In addition, Vol is right and history proves it. What happened in the Southland after the war was a hell on earth perpetrated by evil and greedy men.

My ancestors on my paternal side lived in Cassville, Georgia, about halfway between Atlanta and Chattanooga. It was the county seat for what was originally Cass County, renamed Bartow in 1861 since Cass for whom it was originally named was a yankee. But it ceased to exist after Sherman came through, so there is no need to tell me about the horrors of war in the South–especially as I come from a long line of storytellers, and many stories have been handed down. And yes, probably slavery was going to end even if the the CS had won–after all, I believe the date was either April 15 or April 30, 1865 that slaveholders were to bring a proportion of their able-bodied male slaves to a central location for induction into the Confederate Army, and the reward (anticipated if not guaranteed) was freedom. Because of Lee’s surrender, it never happened anywhere but around Richmond and on a very limited scale there (where several companies of slaves were formed, armed only with pikes; they never made it to the Petersburg trenches, and as far as I know, were left behind when Lee evacuated Petersburg). But the end of slavery would have been gradual at best, and I am not sure that the remaining slaves would have been content to wait years more for freedom. And yes, the possibilities I mentioned are speculation, but I think plausable speculation. And as far (this to CB) as Baptist preachers eventually realizing that the Bible refuted slavery rather than condoning it and bringing pressure against the institution, I am not so sure. A hundred years later, the great majority of white Baptist preachers in the South were still on the side of segregation and attitudes of racial superiority–not slavery granted, but the attitudes behind it are the same, that some men are born to be leaders and others are born to chop wood and fetch water, in other words, that some are just better than others. I have seen it called (and there is a book with a very similar title) “the Cultural Captivity” of the church in the South. White Southern churches were, in some sense, too successful, and thus became too identified with the leading cultural beliefs of the white “ruling” South, and thus supported not only segregation, but such things as management over workers virtually every time there was a strike in some… Read more »

John Fariss,

You said: “And as far (this to CB) as Baptist preachers eventually realizing that the Bible refuted slavery rather than condoning it and bringing pressure against the institution, I am not so sure. A hundred years later, the great majority of white Baptist preachers in the South were still on the side of segregation and attitudes of racial superiority….”

Your statement gives credibility to my idea ranter than refuting it.

The war only served to harden the hearts of Southerners. It retarded progress rather than helped. Southern pastors focused on themselves and the hardships of the aftermath of the war rather than the truth of Scripture. The fallen nature of man got a great stronghold.

Even to this very day the Spirit is working to change hearts of the “Children of the Confederacy” and “Children of Slavery.” Had the greed and sinfulness of men’s hearts not have been hardened greater by the war, the opportunity for “Truth” to have been seen by the day-to-day vision of the horrors of slavery, maybe men’s hearts would have been opened to the reality of what was actually taking place. The war gave men looking of an excuse to be blinded to remain so.

John Fariss and CB Scott:
I think some of your concerns have been explored pretty definitively in Reagan Wilson’s Baptized in Blood about the Religion of the Lost Cause; which among other things founded Sewanee, the Epsiscopal School 40 miles West of Chattanooga on top of the MTn where Newsweek Editor Jon Meacham, Andrew Jackson’s biographer is a graduate.
He has recently written about the Honorary doctorates given to Mary Soames and Harper Lee there and Harper Lee’s Cogent Remarks.
As for Cassville and Kingston, Ga, there was the Great Train Chase. I used to ride my bicycle through there on 30 mile round trips to Rome; and I was able to entertain many grand and profound thoughts on those bike rides; and the world was mine and all that dwelled therein.
General Sherman held up in Rome for about 10 days and exitted best I can figure down what is now roughly the Kingston HWY.
Fariss, Must reading for you and CB Scott as well is EL Doctorow’s The March. Great Character in there, Pearl, a slave who has one of the most beautiful thoughts on Freedom I have ever seen in Fiction; comparable to what it means to be Free in Christ, invoking Exodus themes of the Old Testament.
With me, your time could be better spent reading Doctorow that chronicling much confusion here at The Voices.
And if it were a fair and just board, I would make much use of several emoticons here, but I do not have them at my disposal like Our Masters, Brandon, et. al. (LOL)

“It has finally happed, CB, during our lifetimes, but it took pressure from outside the typical Southern church for it to happen.”

John, now think about hat statement for a moment. The “pressure” that brought real change was not any pressure from outside such as government or education or court actions or bussing, etc, etc. It was the Holy Spirit of God working in the hearts of men and women just like us to make us see the. And the Spirit is still working in both Black and White hearts.

I really believe had the war not helped the cause of Satan in America, the end of slavery would have come sooner.

John, if I am correct, you are an old soldier and cop. You know as well as I do that when men start killing each other, Satan is just up the hill somewhere laughing in his rotten soul.

Steve,

If you don’t finally agree to eat lunch with me, I am just going to come to your house (I know exactly where you live.) and beat you unmercifully with the butt of an old cap-n-ball pistol I have that was given to me which was actually used at Gettysburg. I am going to bring John Killian with me so he can be a witness that I was only defending myself when you attacked me with a tire iron. (This strategy has worked on many occasions in the past. I see no reason it will not work now. I won’t even be arrested.)

On the other hand, if you do eat lunch with me we will talk about the SBC, Rash, McCarthy, George Wallace, The War (any one you would like to talk about) and anything else you desire. I will pay the tab.

Now you think about it Steve. I don’t think you will ever get a better offer form any other conservative, card-carrin’ NRA member, Republican, Anti-Democratic-Administration, Southern Baptist than that. 🙂

CB,

You could be right; but frankly, I am just too cynical and I have seen too much (especially among those who have been evangelized but not converted) to believe it. And yes, when Southern white Christians changed their opinions and racial attitudes, it was the work of the Holy Spirit. But the Spirit did not work in or from a vacume, rather He worked through many African American Baptists such as Martin Luther King, and through many of our northern brethren, Baptist and otherwise.

John

Yes, I have. Tactically, the battle was very much closer than most realize. Not even Lee recognized the proportions of the defeat there, but the loss of men and material soon began to tell on the South. And the ironies there–a Pennsylvania officer from the area named Culp who died on Culp’s Hill, yet he was in the Confederate Army, the friendship between high ranking generals on opposite sides, the Maine regiment led by Joshua Chamberlain engeged in heavy fighting (at Litle Rountop? I forget) who were then transferred to the Union center for a rest, only to be the objective of Pickett’s charge. If we read about such things in a work of fiction, we’d laugh because it was too improbable.

John

You are right about Chamberlain being on Little Roundtop. BTW, Chamberlain was an honorable and strong Christian man to the day he died, teaching others the truth of the gospel as an educator. He was truly a Christ Follower and an American hero. I wish men like him were running this country today.

Here is some common ground among us, CB and JFariss. CB Scott with me is a big fan of the novelist Ron Rash. This takes you to the core of one of his novels from a Civil War tale in his family’s ancestry; The Shelton Laurel Massacre of 1863 in Marshall County, NC; about 30 miles above Asheville.

http://www.rusoffagency.com/authors/rash_r/theworld/behind_theworld_made.htm

John Fariss,

Are you saying that it took Black and Northern Christians to make the Southern Christian see the truth? Do you believe that no Southern white Christians came to the truth on their own through the power of the Spirit alone?

John, that is as bigoted a statement as I has heard lately.

CB,

You asked, “Do you believe that no Southern white Christians came to the truth on their own through the power of the Spirit alone?” My answer to that is no, I don’t believe that–not quite. But I know of too many preachers in too many Southern towns, a generation or two before me, who were told that if that they associated with or otherwise appeared to support any civil rights groups, they could expect an emergency deacon’s meeting, to be immediately followed by being fired or pressured to resign. In fact, my cousin JW Smith, toward the end of his career as DOM in the Bessemer Baptist Association (in the late 70s or early 80s), filled the pulpit at First Baptist, Birmingham. Afterward, he was asked if he would submit his resume to their pulpit committee. He told them that he didn’t think they would want him as pastor, because if he were their pastor, he would insist they minister to be accepting of the people around them in downtown Birmingham–the homeless, street people, prostitutes, African-Americans, etc. They told him not to bother with the resume. Uh. . . is First Baptist of Birmingham still in downtown Birmingham?

How many, what percentage, of white baptist Southern preachers do you think “came to the truth on their own through the power of the Spirit alone”?

John

Christiane: I think it is the Battle of Petersburg, the Crater Battle, that opens Cold Mtn.
You can hear some of my acquaintances from the Sacred Harp tradition on the Soundtrack there, and the kid who gets blown up and later dies portrayed by Lucas Black. Black is currently in what appears to be a sleeper hit of the late summer, Get Low, With Robert Duvall and Bill Murray.
But here is a link to others at Petersburg best I understand it:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Sam+Hodges%3A++Letters+to+Amanda&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=Sam+Hodges%3A++Letters+to+Amanda&gs_rfai=Cw21uciJUTL3WGYGOzQT2jtnPCgAAAKoEBU_QppRd&fp=96dc5b2f1b33f30a

The link as a matter of record and all this aside about the Civil War, please don’t overlook the Screaming Point from Mark Noll that came back to haunt the SBC among others in the 1960’s; a fundamentalist juggernaut was not adequate, a literal reading of the Bible as Criswell and Pressler were able to propaganda and administer on the SBC wasn’t up to the task of explaining and resolving the great cancers in the national body politic.
So like Lincoln and Dickinson and Melville in their day; it was Marney, Foy Valentine, the likes of Bill Moyers and a strain of Bonhoeffer and Niebuhr that came down through Jimmy Allen, Carter and TB Matson and Will Campbell that offered Divine Light to the SBC and Criswell and Pressler snuffed it out.

Steve,

What “Divine Light” did Foy Valentine, Jimmy Allen or Jimmy Carter ever offer to the SBC?

The Light that put Jimmy Carter on the cover of Time magazine in 1970; a light that MO Owens and Bill Powell and Robert Tenery and Pressler were not able to see, not to mention the Alabama SBTS Trustee who resigned or some such from the Trustee Board cause they extended an invitation to MLKing to speak.
So somehow or another the true believer Biblical literalists in the SBC were as inadequate in One of the Great Defining Chapters of the 20th Century as MarkNoll found them to be at the time of the Civil War.
And this same Mark Noll had some wise words for the “Resurgents” at Ridgecrest in 87 that fell on Deaf Ears; so the apologists for the Texas Regulars and Jesse Helms and soon GAry North of the CNP and the REcons went home and hardened their hearts and their Cause.

It is also the Light I linked in the Great Cloud of Witnesses thread, the Light that shone on about 410 pictures there.
And the Light coming out of the Baptist World Alliance these past few days meeting in Hawaii.

Is the “light” you speak of in Time Magazine the same light that got him an interview in PLayboy in 1976?

Yeah Steve, I think you are right. Owens, Powell, Bear Tenery and Pressler “were not able to see” that one. Their “eyes” and hearts were focused elsewhere; Saving the SBC.

Now tell me about the Divine Light of Valentine and Allen. I would like to know what I missed.

So by your Calculus CB Scott, David and all his Divine Utterances are not Fit for Holy Scripture.
Which leader of the Takeover never lusted after a woman in his heart?
Adrian Rogers?
Ed Young?
Tenery?
Criswell?
Vines?
Patterson?

Which ones and how do you know?

If the Bible is literally true then I imagine you woulda had a sightless Leadership in more ways than one on the CR side

Steve,

I didn’t say one word about “lust” and Carter. There was more to the interview than that. BTW, I have never asked any of those fellows about lust in their hearts. I never worked for Playboy. Asking about lust in the heart is their first line of questioning, not mine.

My question had to do with what Divine Light did Carter, Valentine and Allen shed on the SBC that we all need so badly. Tell me about that.

That would be the Divine Light in the new Book about Jimmy Allen, written by Larry McSwain.
I remember seeing McSwain on an elevator in New Orleans the day after the Chapman vote; Wednesday morning when the Truett remnant of Baptists met for Breakfast.
You know George Truett was a mentor of sorts to Jimmy Allen, would’ve performed Allen’s ordination. I think Jimmy Allen is the True Truett vine of Baptist work in America, not Truett’s successor at FBC Dallas, Wally Amos Criswell; but that is no surprise to you.
Allen stopped by Paige Patterson’s home the night his Father died to pay his Respects. I don’t know if you have heard that story before or not.
I linked a story in The Great Cloud of Witnesses with about 400 pictures that glows with the Light of the Baptist experience of Allen and Carter.
And you may find the comments with this story interesting as well:

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5369/53/

Steve,

Do you know how many folks Paige Patterson “stopped by” to see when they had sorrow in their lives? Many of them were and are on the other side of the isle. So what does Allen’s visit to Patterson during his grief have to do with Divine Light?

Do you think Patterson or Vines, etc. ever shed any “Divine Light” in their years on all of us SBC folks? Or was it all from the Dark Side from “Darth” Pressler?

Did he ever, in his great compassion, visit with Pinky Klouda, the husband of his employee at SWBTS, C.B.?

If he didn’t, that is sad.
It might have made a difference in that which ‘went terribly wrong’ in those days.
‘

Just a page from my pesonal experience. I was being destroyed a couple of years ago for standing up to a liberal DOM. He made my life a living hell.

Dr. Patterson heard about it from a friend and called to encourage me and offer any help I needed — he did not even know me.

He is an extremely gracious, good-hearted Christian man.

It is one thing to disagree with his conservative values, it is something else to attack his character.

Steve,

I have to go to Hoover for a while. Catch you later. If you talk to Killian today, tell him I said hello.

Christiane,

Did YOU ever visit Pinky Klouda with compassion? Did you even know who they were before Wade started screaming and hollering about it? Did you? Do you even really know anything about what went on in that whole scenario? Really? I doubt it.

David

L’s,

Did you actually write this?

“Did he ever, in his great compassion, visit with Pinky Klouda, the husband of his employee at SWBTS, C.B.?

If he didn’t, that is sad.
It might have made a difference in that which ‘went terribly wrong’ in those days.”

Here is my answer. I don’t know. he does not communicate those kind of things to me anymore. But I do know he visited a lot of other people who were probably in far worse condition. That is what I know.

Now, let’s talk about something else. Let’s talk about your hypocrisy. First, your hypocrisy knows no bounds. Let’s illustrate it, shall we?

Once before you asked a question similar to this one you just asked about the Klouda’s. I hit you pretty hard if you remember and rightly so.

It was similar to the following:

You asked about the welfare of the Kloudas and made a sick comment about how we all (conservative Christians) hurt them. On that I asked you how much money you sent the Kloudas through Wade’s church to help them out. The answer was $0.00.

I then asked another person the same question. The answer was $0.00.

I then told you to check in with Bob Cleveland to verify if I had sent financial help along with some other guys. Did you ever check that out? If I remember correctly, you and the other person became a little silent on that subject then.

Like I said before L’s. I will say again. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. And you hatred for conservative, biblical Christianity continues to smell up the room.

I think there is a sense in which the President of BTSR roughly agrees with you, but I wouldn’t want to get lost in the semantic differential.
Even if that turns out to be the case, that doesn’t justify the modus operandi of what I call the Takeover. Ron West is closer to proper sentiment in that aspect of this discussion.
Nor does it–best words aren’t coming for me off the cuff here–get takeover apologists off the hook. They still need to read Morgan, Helen Lee, Noll, Unfetterred Word and Wills on the matter.
Lot was going on in addition to semantic comfort or lack of with higher criticism and post modernism.
Remember, Stanley Hauerwas rode to his HS commencement just outside Dallas with Bailey Smith.
Check it out.

Steve,

Hauerwas is another classic liberal. Ands it would not matter if he and Bailey Smith had ridden to the moon together. It changes nothing of his liberal theology.