I am launching a new podcast on my blog entitled When Heaven and Earth Collide, based on concepts that I covered in my 2014 book by the same name about how Jesus enables us to “tell a better story” in a world full of strife, violence, and division. Back at the SBC in June, at the Evangelical Immigration Table (EIT) booth that we hosted, I interviewed around 20 SBC leaders about their thoughts on immigrant ministry/advocacy, what God might be doing in and through global people movements (Diaspora Missions), what the church could do, and what the church had to say to a watching world that was in conflict over these things. I interviewed people like Danny Akin, JD Greear, Ed Stetzer, Richard Land, Matthew Hall, Bruce Ashford, Walter Strickland, David Crosby, Bryant Wright, Bob Pearle, Kevin Smith, Micah Fries, Vance Pittman, K. Marshall Williams, and many more. Every interview was different even though I asked basically the same questions. Over the next couple of months, I’ll be rolling these SBC interviews out as a resource for our work with pastors and church leaders on issues related to engaging in Diaspora Missions, immigrant/refugee ministry and advocacy, and immigration reform from a Biblical perspective. Since this is SBC Voices, I thought it would be good to actually hear the voices of significant pastors and leaders on this important issue.
My first interview is with Dr. Bart Barber, pastor of FBC Farmersville, TX, who also posts here, obviously. Bart has been a good friend and sparring partner on blogs for the past decade, though we now almost always agree (due to his influence, I am sure, and also the seriousness of the times we live in). On this issue, Bart is a supporter of the Evangelical Immigration Table principles as are hundreds and hundreds of other Southern Baptist pastors. Beyond that, Bart is a consistent defender of religious freedom for all, including Muslims, and he has written about that extensively here at SBC Voices. The podcast is only 20 minutes long, but it gives good insight into Bart’s thinking about why churches should minister to immigrants and refugees, work in Biblical ways to solve our immigration problems in America, and why it is very “baptist” to support and defend religious freedom. I only give a 3 minute intro to the concept at the beginning, and then we dive right into the interview with Bart.
There is a really strong section of the interview where Bart talks about the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares and applies it to our current situation. I had never heard it put that way before. And, his account of his experiences advocating for religious liberty in his hometown in the midst of controversy are illuminating, to be sure.
Check out Bart’s thoughts from the interview here at alancrosswrites.com.
very helpful!
Really excited for this podcast and to have Alan as a part of the Roundtable Media family (shout out Todd and Marty for starting this craziness!) Love the way podcasting is opening doors for people to get their voices out.
Alan’s pod is worth the listen!
I am listening now Alan and Bart. It’s very good.
I really enjoyed listening to the podcast discussion with Bart Barber this morning. Very good.
To me it seems that the religious liberty issue is more clear, and thus, an easier sell to people in the SBC.
There are; however, points of tension. Not every practice promoted by every religion should be allowed. Genital mutilation, child sacrifice, prostitution rituals, the taking of illegal narcotics, disallowing education to girls, are all examples. Hence, some people are not going to have the same freedom of religion as others.
Where that line is drawn is a function of cultural norms. And cultural norms are decided by the people who make up the culture.
Which brings us to immigration.
Europe is a great illustration of the interplay between these issues. With the massive Muslim immigration over recent decades, Muslim customs, including religious courts, are becoming accepted. Other changes are “no go” zones for law enforcement, and open hostility to Jews, which has reduced Jewish religious expression. Jews are once again fleeing France, for example. On the other side; however, Muslim women are not allowed to go about fully covered.
All of this illustrates the interconnectedness of religious liberty and immigration.
That does not justify banning the building of mosques, Muslim cemeteries etc.
But is does illustrate how the issue can become tricky.
In the SBC, immigration is a tough issue to discuss well because of the well-intentioned differences about theology and its interplay with the law.
Bart mentions a mission church that his church founded that has a large number of illegal immigrants in it. It is good that the church ministers to those people. But whether the church’s obligations toward the law and what the church says in the policy arena with regard to immigration should be driven by personal ministry concerns, is a difficult question.
By way of analogy, many churches have ministries to the poor, and they spend quite a percentage of their budgets on those efforts. But it does not necessarily follow that the church should advocate for a particular set of policies with regard to taxation and welfare programs. Even if the church did, if the church claimed their way was the “Gospel” way, and other approaches were against the Gospel, that would clearly be suspect.
I mentioned the SBC. I recently listened to a podcast done by the 9 Marks ministry. Jonathan Leeman was the speaker. He was speaking about church discipline, the basis and benefits etc. Jonathan gave an example that he thought was appropriate discipline. A certain church had a member who was an illegal immigrant. The church encouraged this member to report himself to INS and to be truthful about his immigration status and to accept whatever consequences the law would bring. The immigrant refused. So, the church excommunicated the immigrant. Jonathan thought this was a good example of church discipline. Jonathan shared a happy ending. The immigrant eventually went to another church, but came under conviction because he was living the lie of being in the USA illegally. He reported himself to INS and took the consequences. I don’t remember what they were, but he may have been deported. At any rate, sometime later, the immigrant came back to the US legally. He went to the church that had excommunicated him, and thanked them for their faithfulness.
That story illustrates the divide in the SBC on this issue – with each side claiming they are following the Gospel way.
For that reason, and others, the immigration issue is going to be a difficult one for a long time.
Outside of the SBC, in the Reformed community, the debate also is being had. Here is a really thought provoking piece which addresses the theological issues regarding the current theological discussion regarding immigration:
https://mereorthodoxy.com/christians-can-support-tighter-immigration-restrictions/
Thanks for your contribution to these issues. I look forward to listening to future podcasts.
Finally took the time to listen. Insightful and convicting. Good call from Bart for pastors to remain faithful even in the face of cultural pressure. Listen to the podcast to see what I mean.