Mixed-up sexuality is a pretty big thing in the Deaf community here in Ecuador. We have men dressing as girls, entering beauty pageants with glittering dresses and fabulous hair. Lesbians abound as well, forming their own soccer teams and voting blocks in the Deaf clubs and associations. We’ve even got a small pocket of folks who have gone so far as to have surgery and injections and counseling in order to acquire a new gender that they prefer more than the one they had at birth.
About six months ago, I became aware of a man who had become a woman through the surgical/hormonal route. He saved his money for years, had the process done…and then found Christ; reportedly, at least. I’ve not yet met him…or her, whichever it’s supposed to be. I have, though, been privy to a debate on the subject.
Some Deaf Christians here believe that in order to fully turn from his sin, the newly-minted “woman” should do a surgical U-turn and return to the gender of his birth. Others argue that economic issues make such a re-assignment impossible. After all, he hoarded for years before being able to afford the original change; how much longer would he have to scrimp and save? Would he continue being a disobedient child of the King in the meantime?
Well? Anyone confident enough to solve our dilemma?
The question is built on a faulty premise, which is why there is no obvious( on the surface) answer. The flawed premise being the traditional notion that gender transition is sinful. This belief is nothing more than cultural tradition and there is no firm theological basis for it at all. First, let’s divorce the issue from homosexuality, with which it is often erroneously confused. They are entirely separate phenomena. Second, looking at Scripture there are only two or three verse in all the Bible that address cross-gender behavior, and all but one of these have legitimate questions about what precisely… Read more »
First – you’ve given a thoughtful answer. Thank you. I’m curious about an initial assertion you’ve made: homosexuality is a separate issue from gender choices. From what I have seen locally, the decision to change genders comes only after an extended period of homosexual activity. There would seem to be some correlation. Do you have some kind of substantiation for the claim that they are separate issues? I mean, from a neutral source? The reason I begin here is that if the two concepts are connected, then the prohibition of homosexuality would seem to extend to gender changes. We could… Read more »
There are several different things at work here. First, let’s consider the fact that – while hard stats about the trans community are incredibly difficult to come by, because so many are terrified to be open about their condition – something on the order of 40% of post-transition male-to-female transsexuals identify as lesbians. Clearly these are not men who were at any point oriented towards men. contrast this with the incidence of lesbianism in the general population. Second, another relatively large segment, when contrasted to the general population, become asexual and have no inclination for intimacy with either gender. Now… Read more »
“I should be clear here: I find the traditional view that all homosexual relationships are by definition sinful to be an issue that also has room for differing theology”
The Bible is very clear. All homosexual relationships involving sexual activity are sinful. Period. No exceptions.
The Bible is very clear. All heterosexual relationships involving sexual activity outside of marriage between a man and a woman are sinful. Period. No exceptions.
I don’t usually find a reason to add to something CB says, but this time I’d like to point out that his comments include Jesus’s Sermon on the Mount that treated adulterous thoughts as the same as law-breaking sinful activity.
Greg Harvey,
You are right as the rain.
Again, and i am not here to debate homosexuality, consider the logic: Christians disagree vigerously among themselves about the very nature and method of salvation itself. all studying the same revelation and sincerly seeking to serve the same God and exercising the same human reasoning. and for the most part they respect each other’s right to disagree. On the other hand, most of them argue that there can be no legitimate dissent from the idea that homosexuality is sinful. The direct implication is that in your view God was willing to allow humans to be unclear on how they come… Read more »
In addition, to what SEC CB and Greg say here, we have a verse from Deuteronomy 22:5 that says, “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear woman’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.” Seems to me that if clothing is such a big issue to God then genitalia might be also. Just sayin’…….. (And, no, I’m not arguing that women shouldn’t wear pants.) By the way, Tammy, just because you don’t think it’s logical doesn’t mean you get to change what the Bible says. As to salvation, there is only one… Read more »
Dale, lets keep in mind that God calls us to use the gift of reasons he’s given us, not to blindly follow. furthermore, he specifically condemned the temptation to supplant tradition for truth. That said, bringing up the clothes is a very good point. Many sincere thoughtful Christians DO believe that it’s sinful for a woman to wear pants, and point to this scripture among others to support that. For the most part other Christians respectfully disagree but do not get strident over that disagreement. This illustrates that an “obvious” Scripture nevertheless leads to divergent doctrine. Which is my point.… Read more »
Tammy, you’re right, of course, that we disagree on some things within the kingdom of God. However, I would point out to you that sexual sin of ALL types are, in fact, clearly addressed in scripture. Your attempts to make sexuality a matter of reason over against rightness are a little ridiculous.
By the way, are you a man masquerading as a woman?
“Dale, lets keep in mind that God calls us to use the gift of reasons he’s given us, not to blindly follow.” Actually, God has called us to die to ourselves, take up the cross, and follow Jesus. Jesus stated very plainly that He is the only way to salvation. Jesus did not come to show us a way of salvation. Jesus is salvation. “The direct implication is that in your view God was willing to allow humans to be unclear on how they come to know him, but was very careful to be sure there was no doubt about… Read more »
“The direct implication is that in your view God was willing to allow humans to be unclear on how they come to know him, but was very careful to be sure there was no doubt about how he wanted them to have sex.” Actually, God was extremely careful in how He created human males and human females as to how He wanted them to have sex. There has never been any real doubt about that to a “rationally” minded person. The way is entirely “reasonable” and is actually the only way that is in any way rational. Any other way… Read more »
“Tammy, you’re right, of course, that we disagree on some things within the kingdom of God. However, I would point out to you that sexual sin of ALL types are, in fact, clearly addressed in scripture.” You realize that you just re-stated the exact same principle i called into question don’t you? Can you account for the thesis that God’s first priority in his revelation to mankind was to be absolutely clear about the proper use of the genitals? “Your attempts to make sexuality a matter of reason over against rightness are a little ridiculous.” Not sexuality, but sound doctrine… Read more »
“God was and still is very specific as to how humans come to know Him.”
And yet – whole Christian denominations made up of millions of people disagree with other whole Christian denominations made up of millions of people on what the fine details of that process are.
This doesn’t tell you anything?
“This dosen’t tell you something?” Tammy Rainey, Yes it does tell me something. It tells me that Jesus, as always, was absolutely right when He stated: “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” Denominations have not determined and do not currently determine how a person comes to know God. That was determined prior to the foundations of the earth… Read more »
Tammy, in looking at your blog, I’d say that the question I asked is not irrelevant to the discussion but is at the very heart of the discussion. You are a man. You’ve turned yourself into a woman. God didn’t do this to you. You did it to yourself. And that’s your problem. You think that because you “feel” something that it’s just okay for you to do it. You ignore the clear teachings of scripture. You come here with your “rationale” and “reason” parading it as a superior thought process. It isn’t. You’ve succumbed to the judgment of Romans… Read more »
“That was determined prior to the foundations of the earth and any and all existence. It is in Christ and Christ alone. sinners must repent and believe the biblical gospel to be saved. There is no other way. ” Which is a point not in dispute. the question on the table is this: do you acknowledge or deny the assertion that fallen and flawed human beings are incapable of achieving, in this life a certain knowledge of the absolute truth as revealed by God? In short, is it not true that everyone’s theology is flawed on some point or other?… Read more »
Dale, assertions made without even an attempt at supporting the assertions with evidence are not really worthy of much respect. You seem to be under the impression that simply asserting “you are wrong” is enough to conclusively win the debate. It’s not. —– “Tammy, in looking at your blog, I’d say that the question I asked is not irrelevant to the discussion but is at the very heart of the discussion. ” If there had been any intent to device, I would not have included the link. “You are a man. You’ve turned yourself into a woman. God didn’t do… Read more »
Tammy, I know how to debate. I’m not debating you. I’m pointing out the obvious in your assertions. You are wrong. There is no debate. End of discussion. I know that isn’t sufficient for you, but I really don’t care about what you think is satisfactory in such a discussion. You’re simply attempting to justify your own lifestyle. It doesn’t work.
I’m done.
I can’t imagine contributing anything not yet contributed on the question of surgeries to alter one’s genitalia. I would, however, welcome the chance to address this idea that, since debate exists over the gospel, there must be much more uncertainty over other issues. The biblical statement least disputed among Christians is the simple credo: “Jesus is Lord.” It is also, of course, the most ignored, but that’s a discussion for another day. I might find it difficult to imagine that God would be so specific regarding what He reveals to us about sexual norms. I might find it incongruous with… Read more »
“I might find it difficult to imagine that God would be so specific regarding what He reveals to us about sexual norms. I might find it incongruous with the general picture of God’s priorities or nature that I have constructed for myself. Let’s face it: I might consider it to be backwards or inconvenient or judgmental or intolerant or downright meanspirited.” Why does it logically follow that because something seems incongruous it therefore means it is your perception of that which is in error? Have any of yall actually taken 2 consecutive minutes out of your life and asked yourself… Read more »
having already been too wordy, let me add this. There are not, to my knowledge, studies which demonstrate that gender identity and sexual attraction are different things, i don’t even know how you’d demonstrate that medically. There are, however, several solid studies which demonstrate that in pre-treatment transsexuals, the brain construct is much more similar to the identified sex than it is to the gonadal sex. There’s considerably more direct scientific evidence that there’s a biological correlation to transsexualism than has been demonstrated to exist for homosexuals. A friend of mine has a blog on which she’s collected an impressive… Read more »
1 Cor 7:24 might do it.
Good point, but don’t we have to view verse 24 in light of verse 17? “But in any case each one of you should continue to live the way God has given you to live—the way you were when God called you. This is a rule I make in all the churches.” Paul begins this paragraph by pointing out that however God made us to live is how we should continue. Paul goes on to list a few variations or examples, none of which is a sin or by-product of sin. Can we apply verse 24 in this context to… Read more »
Dr Russell Moore discusses this topic on His blog. His website is Mooretothepoint.com
I found this article. I assume this is the one you are speaking about:
http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2013/08/15/conservative-christianity-and-the-transgender-question
That is one of them but he has another article I will see if I can find it
The article is a five part blog he does called Joan or John it was actually a question he used in my ethics class
We have a relative that is dealing with this very issue. The discussion that Dr. Moore has on his site was a good starting point for us to begin to think thru this issue and how the church should hanle it.
The Paper that Dr. Moore did can be found in the following link, and look for the Joan or John.pdf
http://www.russellmoore.com/papers/
Matt 19:12 comes to mind.
All of us made alive by the Holy Spirit inherit bodies that bear the scars and lives that yet suffer the consequences of our sin until the resurrection. Most of us accrue more as believers still being sanctified.
So – you’re drawing a line between (for example) a former alcoholic with cirrhosis and the individual in question here? As the alcoholic suffers the continued fallout from his sins (without remedy), so also the person we’re discussing should simply strive to honor God despite his altered condition?
Did I understand you correctly?
I’m not arguing for a legalistic “have to” one way or another. Sin’s consequences make life complicated and we often have to suffer at our own hands. It’s often better to suffer through self-denial than pursue a comfortable end by compromising a principle somewhere. The context of the verse was a difficult teaching for many, but the rule Jesus wasn’t giving wasn’t whether or not to marry, but to seek to glorify him regardless of our present difficulty. Marriage just happens to be a big difficulty for many that is worth struggling through. Singleness is likewise a big difficulty that… Read more »
Agreed. This is nothing more or less than a “scar” of a sinful life, not something by which to be judged.
If he can afford to change later and wants to do so, then by all means with prayer for speedy recovery. If it remains a financial hurdle, then no condemnation. Reversal is not needed to prove OR guarantee salvation.
I am amazed at the situations you encounter in your mission work. We don’t pay you enough.
To be perfectly, completely, absolutely blunt – I get paid enough. The greatest “pay raise” I can imagine is the continual personal support of people in the US. I’m not talking about money; I mean, a personal connection with more and more folks in the SBC that leads to a greater understanding of what we do. For me, at times the effort to achieve understanding equals affirmation. And affirmation is a powerful thing. I would gladly – thrillingly – welcome any group that wanted to come down just to see a tiny slice of what the missionary life is about.… Read more »
Jeremy,
This is a different topic, and I think we’ve discussed it briefly before, but I’d love to have you discuss the controversy over cochlear implants in the deaf community, and whether you think there is a Christian dimension to the issue.
I’ll add it to the list.
Not knowing the DNA of the person in question how do we know what there gender really is. aside from Tammy’s heavily biased approach and Jim’s assumption this was a fellow because he had a sex change to become a woman. The latter would seem likely but “what if” he had male genitalia and the chromosomes of a female. Since we don’t know, I think the eunuch approach is the wisest. Since he was known as a male before It would probably be best for him to return to a male persona. But if this is egregious to him, perhaps… Read more »
Dismissing my comments as “heavily biased” without discussing the points raised is a bit too easy, don’t you think? For example, you rightly acknowledge that it is possible (rare, but it happens, to appear male from birth and have female chromosomes (or the reverse)which is just one of dozens of intersex conditions. Please explain then how we can assume the brain is immune to this sort of phenomena? I move the previous question: the entire discussion so far, apart from my own comment, proceeds from the assumption of a fact not in evidence – that the Bible expresses a clear… Read more »
Tammy, Not really sure I follow from your perspective. It seems that you believe you are the only one in the comments that is speaking from an un-biased approach. You write; the entire discussion so far, apart from my own comment, proceeds from the assumption of a fact not in evidence.” You reference “vague scriptures” but never give the scripture references. Could you help me out in what you are saying are vague scriptural references? As for your original argument in the first comment. If one were to follow the logic for that argument, then we would not need to… Read more »
okay, taking points in order: 1. I’m not assuming my views are not biased (albeit they are informed by information from both opposing points of view) rather, I’m saying that my posts, alone (at least at that point) did NOT assume as a foregoing premise that transsexual transition is clearly a sin. This is not an assertion concerning bias, but an observation that the other posts do start with that assumption. 2. Scripture references commonly brought up regarding trans people (KJV): Deut. 22:5 – The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put… Read more »
By the way, the series by Dr. Moore that Andrew mentioned starts here: http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/25/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-one/ There are a great many points he makes which I believe are questionable (one would not assume that a person who has, for instance, a nose job is “playing god” by not accepting the nose they were given, one would not counsel one born blind to avoid any medicine that might give them sight because they should be content with how they were born, and so forth – just for one example) However, I try to avail myself of the arguments on both sides for the… Read more »
Anyone have a biblical response for us? Something that addresses the substance Ms. Rainey’s comments regarding transexual inclinations and the Bible?
JEREMY, here are three scriptural references given by St. Ambrose that will apply to any Christian minister seeking to help ALL people who are in distress because of ANY ‘inclinations’ that have resulted from The Fall. These scriptures, of course, would include any specific pastoral concerns, I believe: ““For he who endeavours to amend the faults of human weakness ought to bear this very weakness on his own shoulders, let it weigh upon himself, not cast it off. For we read that the Shepherd in the Gospel (Luke 15:5) carried the weary sheep, and did not cast it off. And… Read more »
that’s a powerful commentary. Thanks for sharing.
Jeremy,
It seems that 19:4 is the NT verse I would establish as my basis. Not only does it cover the NT text, but it also relates to Genesis 1 and Genesis 5, which some would refer to as the Torah. No vague reference that I can see.
Tim–
Can you clarify which book? I know we can figure it out, given there’s only 4 NT books with a 19:4, but it would be good.
Doug
Doug,
Sorry about that. Matthew.
No worries. Just figured that would be best clarified by you rather than assumed by everyone else.
Jeremy, If I may, and since you asked, here is my “Biblical” response. I will start by saying that, I believe, the dirty little secret of the Bible is that it is about sin – but, for me, not like we usually talk about it. As the discussion has unfolded, a number of verses have been advanced and discussed as evidence of sin, love, or mercy. I also read Dr. Moore’s article on “Joan/John” which I found helpful. Dr. Moore’s conclusions are correct but they are reflected in the precise theological manner I would expect of a Baptist pastor and… Read more »
Ahh, what heartache, what pain, what glorious transparency!
Thank you. Thank you, a thousand times over, for bringing a voice of experience and holiness into what has been, up to this point, an academic discussion of possibilities and potentialities.
Your experiences resonate the truths of the Bible, and as such are as evidential as scientific studies. Thank you.
Thank you “Jim” for your testimony, let me preface by saying that it is well to acknowledge that SOME transgenderism (and some homosexuality) absolutely does arise from childhood trauma of the sort you describe. It would be foolishness for those on either side of the debate to presume their understanding is a truth which applies universally (albeit, people on both sides do just that). In light of your transparency, it behooves me to respond in kind. I was born in North MS in 1963, in a culture and situation saturated with conservative Christian traditions. While my parents were nominal Christians,… Read more »
Tammy/Tommy, In light of this confession it seems that I would take you back to my original comment to you. Your position is that everyone is approaching this differently than you. You responded that you were unbiased in your approach because you have read on both sides of the issue. Now you reveal that you are 5 years transitioned from male into female. Do you not see that you are biased in your approach? You made the decision to move from Tommy to Tammy. God did not make that decision for you. Of course if i were a strict Calvinist… Read more »
Duckman Dale and Tim Rogers, There are those who frequent this blog on a regular basis who will either openly or silently declare that both of you have been close-minded, intemperate, judgmental, unkind, and harsh with Tammy Rainey in your comments to her. However, that is not the case at all — far from it. The two of you have spoken the truth to her and in doing so, you have shown her true compassion and Christian grace. For whatever it may mean to you, I thank you both for being men of integrity here and unashamedly writing that which… Read more »
Seriously, Tim? We’re going to default to the “let me make up a male name for you lest I sully my fingertips by typing your fake name” routine? I had hoped this conversation was above such nonsense. I also find it impressive that when someone agree with you and the open their heart it’s “glorious transparency” and when someone who disagrees does so it’s not that at all. And you wonder why i see bias. Still, let me clear up some points for the record. “You responded that you were unbiased in your approach…” I’ve made no profession to be… Read more »
Tim,
Had you taken a few seconds to click Tammy’s name you would have found the info. If you had, what would you have argued differently?
Frankly, I have moe of a problem with the anonymous posters here who deliberately conceal their names and identities and then who take potshots at others.
All in all, this has been a pretty decent discussion. I’m with Dave in not being fully aware of the deaf culture stuff.
If I may interject a question…
Tammy Rainey contends that they have peace in thier soul about the decision they made to have a sex change…
My question to Tammy is….what does “peace in your soul” mean?
The reason I ask is that I’m not sure we’re operating on the same understanding regarding “peace of the soul”.
Also, I haven’t read every word here so pardon m if I missed something…
but are you, Tammy, remaining celibate as a woman or do you seek out intimate relationships with another….and if so which sex?
Tarheel- “peace in the soul” is a term for that feeling of not being under conviction of sin – of having dealt with God on an issue and feeling that you are reconciled. Any Christian who’s been “backslidden” and returned to Him has an idea what that’s like. Also, mixed into that, is the feeling of contented faith that God has not “neglected” you On your second question, I feel that there’s a privacy issue at work here. If it were relevant to my argument about transsexualism, it would be necessary for me to discuss it – but it’s not,… Read more »
It is completely relevant!
If one is born a man…surgery cannot change it.
A person born a man, will deca man.
If said person engages in sexual contact with a man…he’s committing homosexual activity which is unambiguously classified as sin in scripture.
So, clinging to some sort of extreme version of rationalization, even to the point of surgical alteration, is weak and transparent.
*die a man
Not
Deca
Ahhh….iPad autocorrect just astounds me sometimes. Lol
tarheel, i can only say that in my worldview, the reality of a persons soul and spirit is not identified by that which they keep in their underwear. if that’s your position, you are welcome to it.
No, but “what’s in ones underwear” indicates the sex that God created them to be….having a surgery does not change it. One born a male, having intimate relations with another born a male, is in fact homosexuality. It seems to me that you are seeking and have been for some time, to recreate yourself in a better image than the one that God created you to be. It’s a direct and intentional defiance of the Holy Creator God, and to use your phrase, if that’s the way you choose to live…then it’s up to you. This is a manifestation of… Read more »
“tarheel, i can only say that in my worldview, the reality of a persons soul and spirit is not identified by that which they keep in their underwear.” Tammy, You are right. According to your “worldview, the reality of a person’s soul and spirit was not identified by that which they keep in their underwear.” The revealed truth here, according to your own words, is that your “worldview” has persuaded you that the reality of your soul and spirit was identified by that which you “did not want to keep” in your underwear. Therefore, you changed it to be in… Read more »
“No, but “what’s in ones underwear” indicates the sex that God created them to be….having a surgery does not change it.” O? then what sex did god intend the intersex person to be? If sex is determined by the genitalia alone, then what sex IS such a person? You can say “neither” or “both” but if you ASK that person – they KNOW an answer and it’s not going to be neither or both. If their genitals don’t tell them – HOW DO THEY KNOW? You are aware, i assume, that when a baby is born with ambiguous genitalia it… Read more »
“You are right. According to your “worldview, the reality of a person’s soul and spirit was not identified by that which they keep in their underwear.” The revealed truth here, according to your own words, is that your “worldview” has persuaded you that the reality of your soul and spirit was identified by that which you “did not want to keep” in your underwear. Therefore, you changed it to be in accord with “your” personal worldview. Your worldview is not that of a biblical worldview.” Yet another repetition of the same fundamental error: you will never make a persuasive case… Read more »
“Which says nothing at all about transsexuals.”
Once again, Tammy, you are right.
However, to be specific, I was in reference to the passage in its description of people who have fallen to having reprobate mind, of which, by all you have stated here in this thread, you have done so.
let me walk through that logic: You claim that I am in sin, yet have not demonstrated it >>> Based on that claim, you call me to repentance without proving repentance is needed >>> based upon my (apparent) failure to repent you conclude that i have a reprobate mind >>> which is why i don’t recognize that your claim that i am in sin is valid and doesn’t need proof. That’s called circular reasoning – it’s not valid. first things first – prove to a reasonable degree that we may assume the condition in question is in fact sinful, THEN… Read more »
No, Tammy, this time you are once again wrong. I have “claimed” nothing. I have dogmatically stated you are wrong. However, for argument’s sake, let’s just imagine for a moment that I lost my mind and became a raving lunatic and stated that God is just fine with you doing whatever you want in life as long as you are sincere. Let’s say every person on this blog thread said you were OK and in good standing with God as long as you are sincere. The truth is, you are still wrong. You are in an alien position to revealed,… Read more »
Hey CB, isn’t SBCVoices wonderful! In one thread we go at it strongly disagreeing, yet in another we join together in complete agreement! God bless SBCVoices!
SVMuschany,
Yes, I think this is a good medium for dialogue. However, I have a suspicion that even if we were face-to-face, we could have the same relationship. You seem to have a stand-up guy type of personality. I have respect for guys like that. That is why I have come to admire guys like Dave Miller, Tim Rogers, Dwight McKissic, Peter Lumpkins, Bob Cleveland, Marty Duren, Art Rogers, Chris Roberts, Jared Moore, William Thornton,and many others.
You say what you think and you own it. I respect that.
cb, please allow me to correct myself:
You have dogmatically stated something you have not demonstrated to be true.
Thank you for noting the misstatement.
Ms Rainey has given us a wonderful example of what to consider for the sake of mercy, which I consider critical in understanding Torah. I agree we may have to consider gender ID separately. However, when the gentiles were coming to Christ James outlines 4 things in Acts to avoid…eating blood, polutions of idols, things strangled and sexual sin…these as minimal starting points as they grow the graft into Israel. I would say the main thing is to begin there celebately then to pray for wisdom having him learn the scriptures and pray for wisdom of the Holy Spirit. Others… Read more »
well said.
Another question here, to further discussion….
Dee,
You mentioned judging others based whether we see them “growing in honesty and character”.
Is having a surgery to change ones God given sex, and then living life that way – presumably not making announcements to people regarding the fact that one is a man living as a woman, living a life of honesty?
I’m not trying to be jerky…really I’m not…but I am having a hard time seeing how such things reflect a life of honesty….
Character is grown over time. I made a lot of mistakes in my 20s and 30s..ok and early 40s…from trying to know who im supposed to be…married a man who was not serious about God after giving up on my calling…and that from trying to fit my calling into denominationalism which stifled it. In my 50s making much better decisions…but it was a journey. I think this person needs time to hear God speak to them about who God created them to be and that transcends gender. But gender/eunichness will fall into place with time. Needs to hear from God… Read more »
I think the point is that this person just came to salvation. Needs time to grow. Doubt you were sinless this fast…one abomination is not worse than another. Discipleship is a process not a contest as the pharisees would have it.
FYI…this from a person who believes scripture teaches pork and homosexual acts are as abominable as gossip!
“this from a person who believes scripture teaches pork and homosexual acts are as abominable as gossip!”
What????
Are you stating that eating “pork” (Ham, Pork-chops Sausage, Beacon, and even B-B-Q) equates to a sin such as “homosexuality” or heterosexual sins and is an abomination such as is gossip?
Is that what you actually believe? If so, I have a question for you:
From what planet in an alternate galaxy do you originate?
Dee has commented before on similar subjects. If I were attempt to put a name on the system she proposes, it would be “messianic christian Judaizers”. Of which only the third word is capitalized because it’s what she really seems to believe…
People are redeemed …not abominations. These are all on the forbidden list and Peter interpreted his vision to mean gentiles were not forbidden and that Pharisaic tradition was wrong to treat believing Gentiles as dogs.
I must be on visitation to another planet today also. For I have committed breakfast blasphemy by spelling “bacon” as “beacon.” However it is true that “bacon” can be a “beacon.” How so? Well, I’ll tell you. On an early morning when it is so cold that every time you try to put your feet out from under the cover to get out of bed, they try to jump back under and icicles are hanging off your nose and you declare you shall just stay in bed all day (maybe all winter) and then, suddenly — you smell bacon cooking… Read more »
I thought it was a kludge between bacon and deacon, like that was what the deacons were calling their Sunday morning prayer breakfast.
Jim Pemberton,
In most of the churches I have served, it was a requirement that the deacons eat pork at least twice a week for an evening meal and eat bacon for breakfast every day. Naturally, sausage is always mixed in with the gravy and eggs.
My son, in his 7-year-old wisdom, recently opined that it was much easier to get up when he could smell bacon than when he heard the rattle of the Cheerios box.
All I could say was that it was easier to get up when I was planning to *cook* bacon than when I planned to rattle the Cheerios box.
The Hibbard men are very intelligent men.
We even had sense enough to come out of the deer woods early Saturday when it was 35 degrees with a wind chill of 15.
Which was good, because one of my church members had fallen, shattered the glass on his shower door, and his son needed backup help in taking care of the situation. His son being the man whose land I hunt on, whose truck I had, and whose house I was returning the truck to just as he was heading to help his father.
One might call that a coincidence, but I have my doubts.
I like bacon.
David
I think there are some great points here. First, I think Ms. Rainey has pointed out that we must be merciful in our approach to the issue. These are real people who have real issues. They deserve our love. And yes, we’ve been wrong on other topics, so we should proceed with caution. However – I think the crux of the initial question comes down to one of identity: who determines our inner, existential identity? Mankind? Or God? Ms. Rainey said, “Transsexualism is very much about how you precieve your SELF, not at all about sexual desire.” This was her… Read more »
Let’s see: 1. From your telling of the story, it sounds like he now views both the gender identity “decision” and the reassignment surgery as sinful. 2. I also sense from the story that he was not born with physical hermaphroditism which could be due to a chromosomal abnormality like Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY) or Turner Syndrome (XO). So there isn’t a physical cause for sexual identity confusion or a need for a “gender identity selection” decision. 3. Given #1 and #2, I think he current situation most closely resembles eunuchs in the Bible. This suggests there are two issues to… Read more »
Great thoughts Jeremy. Forgive me for selective quotes but I will strive to be fair to your intent. “I think the crux of the initial question comes down to one of identity: who determines our inner, existential identity? Mankind? Or God?” That’s a heck of a philosophical question, or at least the kernel of one. Let’s be clear, I believe we agree (if you are Christian) that our sex is indeed and indisputably ordained by God. A transsexual is not at all presuming to alter their sex, in that context – rather they seek to conform their flesh to the… Read more »
Who God says i am is more important than who i think i am. My perception is flawed.
Indeed. What does God say you are?
I won’t address all the points Tammy makes, but I will discuss the general principles that mitigate her understanding. First, it is unwise to draw principles from the exceptions. One typical pattern for disputing a general principle is to cite exceptions, both hypothetical and real. Examples of apparently acceptable physical gender exceptions are typically trotted out to justify spiritually sinful perversion. It’s already been observed that the Bible doesn’t observe today’s transgender issues because it didn’t exist as we know it. On the one hand, this is true. On the other it isn’t. The transgender issue the Bible addresses is… Read more »
“First, it is unwise to draw principles from the exceptions.” Agreed. But this does not mitigate the reality that we should discern the details of a situation and not try to force every person into a narrow arbitrary standard. “Examples of apparently acceptable physical gender exceptions are typically trotted out to justify spiritually sinful perversion” Again, this assumes as a given that transsexualism is sin without demonstrating it. ” It’s already been observed that the Bible doesn’t observe today’s transgender issues because it didn’t exist as we know it. On the one hand, this is true. On the other it… Read more »
Tammy/Tommy, I cannot respond to your comment to me so I had to start a new comment thread. First, I am not using a literary device in order to “keep from sullying” my hands as I type. I am merely trying to follow the wise advice that Dr. Moore has given. Something you agreed was wise advice. Thus, if you do not want me using the back-slash tell me what male name you would prefer. Second, had you read Dr. Moore’s position paper you would find that I am not alone in my assessment. Third, in reading your comments to… Read more »
I agree completely with Tim Rogers, CB, and all those who agree with the Bible. Tommy Rainey, we all struggle with sinful feelings and desires and thoughts…all of us….it’s called temptation. And, just because we may be tempted to commit adultery, or fornication, or homosexual sex, or to lie, or murder….we should not surrender to the temptation, but rather fight the temptation with the power of God. So, just because you may feel tempted to dress like a woman, and look like a woman, and act like a woman, doesn’t make it right for you to cave in to those… Read more »
vandyfan/Dana (see how that sort of thing isn’t really cute at all?) – you are free, if you like, to answer the question that Tim et al are either unwilling or, more likely, incapable of answering: you must FIRST demonstrate a given act IS a sin before you can then give advice about how to fight the sinful temptation. let’s lay aside for a second my condition and use a more neutral example. some Christians (including a lot of Baptists) argue that ANY consumption of alcohol is sin. many others, including many Christians, disagree. holding only that it is drunkenness,… Read more »
and by the way, I find it very convenient how people who cannot support their views with evidence so easily resort to assuming the opponent lacks a relationship with Christ. Submitted for your consideration: ——————– Romans14 1.Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is… Read more »
Tim, the name I prefer is Tammy. if you wish to engage in a respectful conversation, you will use that name and quit trying to employ a passive/aggressive stunt. Second, I’ve read more than one item from Dr. Moore on this subject. I’ve yet to see him do the thing I’ve asked you to do – prove your claim FROM SCRIPTURE. That must be the FIRST task in making your case or you have no case. Dr. Moore makes some good points IF you accept the initial unproven assertion. I don’t. I have a vested interest in what the Bible… Read more »
Re-post of questions… Tarheel December 18, 2013 at 9:18 am If I may interject a question… Tammy Rainey contends that they have peace in thier soul about the decision they made to have a sex change… My question to Tammy is….what does “peace in your soul” mean? The reason I ask is that I’m not sure we’re operating on the same understanding regarding “peace of the soul”. 56 Tarheel December 18, 2013 at 9:31 am Also, I haven’t read every word here so pardon m if I missed something… but are you, Tammy, remaining celibate as a woman or do… Read more »
I just mean it takes time to grow character. I want to watch for progression in discipleship. Did all your sin fall away ay once or did conviction and maturity take time?
Tarheel, I addressed your first two questions in reply to your previous posts. Your third is not directed at me but since it’s ABOUT me i will indulge myself to weigh in. One of the failings of those who are prone to judge the decisions of others is not bothering to take into consideration the other persons point of view. Try to put yourself behind my eyes for a second. From early childhood I understood myself to be female in mind soul and spirit. From that early age I also understood that the people around me would not sympathize with,… Read more »
I could believe myself, with all my mind and soul, to be a one eyed one horned flying purple people eater. I could believe it with all I am. Yet if I were to have surgery to remove one of my eyes, and center the other on my face, graft a “horn” on my forehead, and then believing I could fly, jumped off a bridge, people would rightly label me as nuts, and if I survived, I would be committed to a mental hospital. Why? Because in reality I am a human male, not a make-believe monster from an old… Read more »
Well said, SVMuschany.
“people would rightly label me as nuts” Excerpt from the big book of analogy fail? I’m sorry, i do not mean to be rude but if i’ve heard one attempt to engage in a creative analogy, I’ve hear a thousand and each and every time they fail on one simple point. which is this: there are naturally occurring biological processes which operate on every human fetus ever conceived which determine the extent of their maleness or femaleness – over 99% of the time resulting in a clearly male or clearly female result. On the other hand, there is NO biological… Read more »
Once again your eisegesis is terrible. Just because scripture does not speak to an issue, does not mean we cannot determine from other scripture what is sin and what his not. Moderationists and abolitionists can disagree over whether it is right or wrong to drink alcohol in moderation. BOTH however can agree that driving after drinking IS wrong, IS sin. And yet the bible DOES NOT talk about driving, or driving drunk or anything close to that. So how can we determine that drinking and driving is wrong! By your logic we cannot because it is not addressed in scripture.… Read more »
Can you say “drinking and driving is wrong”? Absolutely! What you CANNOT say is that “The bible clearly teaches that drinking and driving is wrong.” If you want to say transsexual transition is wrong based on human reasoning, then state your case – but the word “sin” won’t be relevant to that case. As for the rest – you seem to be growing more and more hostile. Are you disappointed that I didn’t live down to your predictions? you seem to be committed to assigning motivations and positions to me that are not true (and by the way, attacking the… Read more »
” Scripture is clear that homosexuality…” Not all Christians agree even on that, just as a point of order. It never gets old to watch people say “Scripture is clear that…” about something other Christians do not find there. To repeat a previous point, some Christians argue that “Scripture is clear that you must be baptized in order to be saved” but obviously if it were clear, there would be no dispute. “but we can extrapolate from scripture…” Then do so. Invoking homosexual acts, even if you are right on that, does not qualify because (a) the post-op woman can… Read more »
You have in this very post made it clear that if I, or anyone here were to present the verses that CLEARLY speak against homosexuality, you would say, just as you did, that that is just “one interpretation” and ignore what we say. You don’t really care for scripture, you are using it as a prop because you know no one can show you anything that you already have not developed an opinion on. You have closed your mind and your heart. But seeing as you will puff yourself up against us silly conservatives because we are “not providing scripture”,… Read more »
“You have in this very post made it clear that if I, or anyone here were to present the verses that CLEARLY speak against homosexuality, you would say, just as you did, that that is just “one interpretation” and ignore what we say.” Not at all. Rather I would repeat to you what i said in my first post – being transsexual is a wholly different thing than being homosexual, and a transsexual transition does not correspond one to one with ANY sexual act at all. You have, in your first sentence, assumed a fact that is not only not… Read more »
let me throw a fresh train of thought out there for consideration: Here are some objective facts about the subject at hand: 1. no one who hasn’t experienced can relate to it. I don’t just mean not UNDERSTAND it, I mean they have no frame of reference, no proper analogy even, to wrap their head around what it must be like. Not only in the gender identity itself. but what having that condition implies for us in the context of a culture which completely rejects you. Let’s admit it – it is very easy to dismiss the reality and validity… Read more »
“no one who hasn’t experienced can relate to it.” That dog just won’t hunt, Tammy. That is like saying that no one who has not been set on fire can relate to it. The truth is, that any person who knows anything about fire in any form can relate to it without ever being set on fire. The same is true with your situation. The truth is, that any person who knows anything about sin in any form can relate to your situation without ever being in the same situation. You see, Tammy. Once a person has truly been convicted,… Read more »
this is the last time I’m going to repeat this correction to those who are repeating the error over and over again. You do not advance your argument one millimeter by declaring it is sin without demonstrating it is sin. If you have a mustache and a preacher comes up to you and says “Mustaches are sinful! Shave it off!” will you say “”gosh, i had no idea!” and grab your razor? or will you want to see some evidence?
“That is like saying that no one who has not been set on fire can relate to it.”
I would agree with that. You can intellectualize the idea of it but if you haven’t felt the pain of it, you can’t imagine what it must be like. So say those who have been anyway. i certainly can’t imagine it.