All you posties and amils and postmils and preterists and assorted eschatological wannabees are simply jealous because you cannot come up with the kind of quality charts that dispensationalists have provided over the years. Here’s one:
This is about the best non-dispy chart I’ve seen.
I will not name the author of the non-dispy chart, because I don’t want to embarrass Mike Bergmann. But until you guys can come up with some riveting fiction and a decent chart or two, your positions will never have any credibility.
The dipsy chart looks like Obama’s health care plan.
LOL
That’s cold.
it WAS funny 🙂
OK, now I’ve laughed enough for today. Oh well what is one more time. That was funny Lydia.
I have always wondered how the perspicuity of Scripture co-exists w/ needing about 10 super computers to interpret charts and graphs…
I think the health plan is actually simpler!
🙂
there was Adam, the first man
there was a ‘holy family’ . . . (Noah)
and then there was a ‘tribe’ . . . (Father Abraham)
and then there was a ‘nation’ . . . (Moses)
and then there was a ‘kingdom’ . . . (King David)
and then there was an ‘Ekklesia’ (Lord Jesus Christ Son Savior))
Kim Riddlebarger, Amill extraordinaire, offers charts: http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/the-latest-post/2012/1/4/you-cant-talk-about-eschatology-without-a-chart-right.html
I don’t know this Bergmann dude…
But that is a Bergman crayon-art classic!
The creepy gnome dude is a dispensationalist… that’s why he’s off by himself… and creepy… 😀
At least I protected your identity.
Hey… I think its a piece of art and I’m proud of it…
Of course I’m also the one w/ a pic (not drawn by me, btw) hanging on my office/study door of the great chicago fire w/ a spaceship hovering above town…
So my art taste might need some work!
Mike, I’m an anti-gnome-ian, y’know…
Here’s to you, young man!
Three cheers for crayons and for amillennial dispensationalists.
There wasn’t a picture of a test tube ( T T T = Test Tube Theology ) so that James 2:26 when properly disected by “qualified learneds” doesn’t mean what it says ; we have to go to some other Scripture and to someone else to interpret it so that we may “understand” it .
I especially like a Daniel dispensational chart with extra long toes. Neat.
http://low5point.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/long-toes1.jpg?w=500&h=224
I was going to make some crack about your use of “riveting fiction” as necessary for your particular chart…
But I think I’ll think better of it.
Liberal.
I only repeated your own words 🙂
Honestly, I have no idea quite where I fit in this great scheme. Jesus is coming back, that much I know and not much else.
Question:
when was ‘Dispensationalism’ first taught as a doctrine ?
By Daniel in 550 BC, then by the Apostle Paul during the NT Era. We’re not really looking to get into a heavy-duty eschatology nuke-out here.
I think that it’s important to note that eschatology is just one facet of dispensationalim. It’s really sort of a panoramic view of the history of the relationship between God and man.
And it has really cool charts.
“We’re not really looking to get into a heavy-duty eschatology nuke-out here”
Dave, you are just no fun at all! :o)
BTW: I am a pan-mil.
L’s,
Back when the Jews had straw for making brick, they talked about it a lot.
Then when Pharaoh took away their straw, they did not have much time to talk about it much.
Have you been over at the Lutheran church taking nips at the communion wine again?
Dave,
That is funny. When we lived in PA, my wife was the director of HR for the Lutheran Seminary. (same position she held in a SBC seminary for a good while) Those folks drank a lot of wine.
UPS must have delivered the order I shipped to him…..CB what was that VISA card number again, I misplaced it. 😉
BR549
CB,
Can’t be that one that belongs to Dave Miller for his monthly order of sacramental wine…..like the ‘piscopalians use.
You said that transaction would be confidential, Jake.
Sorry Dave,
That just slipped out…..we have the Vegas rule at the store…..don’t we have that on your blog? 😉
About 150 years ago, when Harold Camping was a boy.
I’m learning not to ask important questions on a football weekend. You guys are crazy. LOL
To answer your question, the idea that dispensationalism is a relatively recent doctrine is easily refuted by reading the early church fathers. Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Augustine as well as many others believed in a literal AntiChrist who would rise up in the future. Ammil and Postmil deny a literal antiChrist. Preterists believe that Nero was the AntiChrist, but many of the Church fathers of the 2nd and 3rd centuries held that this rising up of the anti Christ was a future event.
I hate to bring a serious note to a frivolous topic, but here goes.
Do you think the current evangelical antipathy towards environmentalism issues is a result of (or related to) the widespread acceptance of premil dispensationalism?
By the way, John Hagee’s chart a few years back had big red apples on it. And they could be moved!
Thanks for the name. I’ll look Hagee up. So far, all I’ve done is come across ‘Darby’ and ‘Scofield’ (something about some footnotes he wrote in a Bible)
Scofield and Darby are two of the bigger names in popularizing Dispensationalism in recent centuries for our culture.
They are not quite definitive, but the foundation is found there pretty well.
Do I think it’s a reslt of widespread acceptance of premil dispensationalism? No, for two reasons: 1.) The acceptance of Premil Dispensationalism is not widespread…2.) Although I think it can play a role for some people I think antipathy toward environmentalism is more a result of a disgust for the fanatic environmentalism.
Seriously? I was a Christian for years before I knew there were alternatives to premil dispy. Maybe I’m just isolated, but among evangelicals I think you might be wrong about this.
I don’t want to paint all dispys with the same brush, but the strong impression I get (from them) is that it doesn’t matter if we turn the planet into a festering dung-heap because the rapture will happen any moment and God will clean everything up.
John Wylie,
Why do you maintain Premillennial Dispensationalism was/is not widespread?
It seems that this position was the position held by conservative evangelicals for years. There were/ are even Study Bibles geared to the position.
I am interested in how you came to your conclusion.
Well CB and Bill Mac, Even our BFM does not take a dipensational approach, it is ambiguous because of all the different views out there. Almost every young preacher I know coming out of SBC seminaries holds either an ammil of preterist view. I don’t have hard and fast stats but that’s been my experience. Btw, there are several study Bibles out there that do not espouse a dispensational viewpoint. Bill, what I took issue with your statement about is that you attributed antipathy to environmentalism entirely to premil dispensationalism. (Go back and carefully read your statement) There are people… Read more »
Bill, what I took issue with your statement about is that you attributed antipathy to environmentalism entirely to premil dispensationalism. (Go back and carefully read your statement) OK. Going back and looking over my comment carefully, it looks to me like I did no such thing. I asked a question, I didn’t make a pronouncement. And lest I be accused of the very thing you accuse me of, I qualified it with a few words in parentheses (or related to). But I guess now I will give my opinion. I think evangelical antipathy towards environmentalism has two strong motivators: Dispensationalism… Read more »
Bill Mac,
What about the “people are just nasty” response? I thought that was pretty good. Unless, of course you believe only Republicans and Premils are nasty. 🙂
Bill Mac,
You are right you did say (or related to), my apologies sir. I wasn’t trying to accuse you of anything, I was just expressing disagreement. My opinion is yes it can play a role but it is not the sole cause, or even the main one. As to your “Republicanism” comment, I’ll just remind who started the EPA…Richard Nixon. I’ll not get into all the plagues that have been brought on this nation by “Democratism”.
CB: Republicans are nasty. Well, except for me. And one or two other guys. Don’t get me started on Southern Republicans. Most of those guys prefer pork bbq over beef bbq. Makes you believe in total depravity.
John: The problem is I think you are reading too much motive into my question. Although I have my opinions, I wanted the question to be fairly academic. I’ll post a longer response later when I get the time. Gotta go feed the sheep.
(no, I’m not a pastor. I really have sheep. )
I thought I posted a lengthy comment but I don’t see it, so I’ll substitute a shorter one. Evangelicals reject the claims of scientists for only about 3 reasons. 1: They are trained scientists themselves and see flaws in the research. 2: The claims do not line up with a particular interpretation of scripture, such as with evolution/earth age. 3: The science interferes with their political views. In other words, the Democrats are in agreement with it, therefore we Republicans must be against it. I think evangelical antipathy towards environmentalism is a mixture of 2 and 3, assuming they hold… Read more »
I looked for it and didn’t find it in any of our folders, Bill.
Bill Mac, I know you’re not seeking to broaden this discussion (or I think you’re not), but the evolution thing is rejected by lots of Christians not just dispensationalists. Dr. Mohler, for instance, is not a dispensationalist but he’s not an evolutionist either. In fact, many reformed people reject evolution. As you know, people can believe in an old earth, and still reject evolution. Even honest scientists will admit that evolution has not been proven. For me number 3 would play a bigger role on the environmental thing rather than dispensationalism. I mean seriously no one wants their water or… Read more »
John: I’m afraid I’m not communicating very well. I just used the evolution thing as an example of rejecting science because of a biblical interpretation. I’m only saying I think dispensationalists do this with environmentalism based at least in part by their eschatology.
Naw Bill Mac. I think the antipathy is simply because people are nasty no matter what eschatological view they embrace.
Too bad you folks have never read David Lutzweiler’s The Praise of Folly. Draper, Va.:Apologetics Group Media, 2009. Subtitled, The Enigmatic Life and Theology of C.I. Scofield. One of the things pre-trib, premil, eschatology has done is get old Rome off of the hot seat at the Antichrist. Now we spend our time looking for some esoteric individual instead of considering the original, according to the Waldensians, for the character, that is, a movement and not a person, an institution, something bigger than any one glorified (so-called) individual. And with the kind of technological advances we have now, we might… Read more »
I didn’t really want this to become a heavy discussion of eschatology – just trying to have some Saturday fun. But Darby, Scofield and a few others were the first to codify the Dispensational system – and much that they codified has been rejected or revised significantly by modern dispensationalists. At Dallas Seminary, Scofield was seldom mentioned in class. But some of the elements of dispensationalism can be traced back much farther. The idea that none of this system existed prior to Darby et al is a common mumpsimus repeated by opponents of dispensationalism. None of our current systems, even… Read more »
Dave,
So the Scofield was not mentioned much at DTS? Well, that just goes to prove to you that you received a poor education there.
I remember when Dr. Patterson was president of SEBTS, the Schofield Model 3 in .44 cal. Russian was spoken of quite frequently. It was highly regarded as an introduction to teaching the “end time” for “when wolves creep in unaware.”
Yes, it does go back past Darby, though according to Dr. John Coleman, the decision to put Darby’s views into play were made by the British East Indies Company Board and that the purpose was to divert money from Christian Missions in the 20th century to the nation of israel..and this decision was made for that purpose in the early part of the 19th century (early 1800s). Sort of like reading about the references to WWI and WWII in social revolutionary G. Mazzini’s letter to Albert Pike, circa 187(?) which I have seen quoted in several sources and which was… Read more »
I’m a premillennialist who is all for reasonable environmentalism. I reject, however, the environmental extremists who say driving a car is killing the polar bears and causing global warming (I was taught global cooling as a kid). By the way, they seem to all drive cars as well. I’ve hunted, fished, trapped and love the outdoors and those kind of folks give more to the environment than about anyone. I care about and know many of the basics about environmental diversity and enhancing wildlife habitat. I’ve planted way more than my share of trees. You can easily do all this… Read more »
When I think premillennialists, especially of the dispensational variety, the first thing that pops into my head are creepy gnome dudes… the second thing is a picture of C. Montgomery Burns looking on as his nuclear plant dumps toxic waste into Lake Springfield.
That’s a joke, of course…
Though I’m not sure if I get in trouble for making a Simpson’s reference on a baptist blog???
I may need to go onto that graphs and rename the creepy gnome dude as “Mike Bergman” – one n.
A-Men David R. Brumbelow. Hunters, trappers, and fisherman put a lot of money in conservation of the natural environment — more than most. Many, if not most, national parks were championed by a great hunter, Teddy Roosevelt. Think of what Yellowstone would be without Teddy? But I must caution you about what you stated about killing Polar Bears with motor vehicles. David R. Brumbelow, a fellow can kill a Polar Bear if he runs over him with a F-350 Ford truck. But he better make sure he is dead before gettin’ out of that truck. ‘Cause if that bear ain’t… Read more »
I’ve also been all three, although I don’t think I could be a trapper again. I’m not sorry I did it when I was a younger man, but I’ve come to believe we shouldn’t kill things we aren’t going to eat.
Bill Mac,
I am glad you have decided not to kill things you don’t eat. I may come to NY and visit you now that I know you forbid yourself of shootin’ people.
Just leave the cornbread and grits at home. I’ll have the beef brisket ready.
I try to avoid the term “environmentalism”, as it carries a political charge of a decidedly leftward twist. I speak instead of “stewardship” and teach that we are to care for God’s creation. We are to use it. We are to manage it. We are to maintain it. We are not to worship it. All the while trusting in the sovereign providence of God that the creation, groaning as it is, will last exactly as long as He intended to fulfill His plans.
Squirrel
Well, Dave–in all seriousness, I’ve got a post churning in my head… goes back to that other post you made in which you offered up the challenge to seriously engage with the scholars and the text. So I dusted off my Pentecost (and his quotes of Walvoord and Ryrie are legion) and Chafer… …it would take years of blogging to engage the entire dispensational system, but I got an idea about engaging them on matters of the Abrahamic covenant and the land promises, as that is a part of the system. I might have that sometime in February, after I… Read more »
Personally, I would prefer the two bisley colts with their holsters and belt that was for sale for $90.00 just down the street from the dorm where I attended college in my first year (East Texas Baptist, ’58-’59). Had I bought them then, I could have sold them for $3,000 in ’72, when I went to my thrid church. And for10,000 by 2005 or more. Jesse and John Wesley Hardin preferred them scofields, I guess they were heavier. My Great Grand Pappy preferred a 38 cal. colt cause you get more shots off in quicker time. He would do a… Read more »
I do hope you have a sense of humor David.
You know James, A Guiena ain’t half bad eatin’ if you cook it right. And they make great watch dogs. Nobody can sneak up on a flock of Guienas roostin’ in your Crape Myrtle bushes. You can get the drop on an outlaw with a S&W Schofield or a Bisley Colt either one if you own a flock of Guienas and pay attention to them when they get startled. I would like to buy you a cup or two of good coffee some day James, and hear your whole story. You are an interesting fellow. You have certainly “seen a… Read more »
Why do all Dispensationalist speak in tongues while drinking alcohol? Consider yourself trolled Miller!
Be happy to meet your CB. Bet you have an interesting story or two also. Now if we could just get David straightened out about the best charts being post-mills covering 1000 generations and a number in Heaven even the Lord wouldn’t care to count, such a post being utterly unlimited and a chart utterly unending vistas of redeemed souls. And why not. I figure the devil has enough in hell, a narrow pit of a lake, compared to the cubed city of 1600 miles as well as the endless green emerald sea stretching infinitely forever in every direction.
[Just for laughs from amills – or tears from dispies – here’s what I saw on the web] SCHOLARS WEIGH MY RESEARCH (update) by Dave MacPherson (For more than 40 years my pretrib critics have falsely claimed that leading scholars condemn my research. Since those critics continue to deliberately distort and censor (even on Wikipedia etc.) my evidence that Edward Irving’s group as well as Margaret Macdonald taught a pretrib rapture before John Darby and his group did, I hereby present reactions to my research from leading scholars who haven’t had a huge axe to grind either for or against… Read more »