Thom Rainer posted an article last week called “When Great Churches Fail.” It was an intriguing examination of once great churches that had lost their grip an begun to struggle and dwindle. He identified three key elements that seem to be common elements in these declines.
Hubris. The word means pride or excessive self-confidence. Here it refers to church leaders who have seen great days at their churches, and who are convinced that their churches are the models for others to emulate. They talk about the methods they used, instead of the biblical principles and passions behind the methods. Since theirs was such an effective church in the past, the leaders see little need to do things differently today.
Denial. It’s a characteristic of church leaders of fallen churches. They simply don’t want to face the facts. The church is not as evangelistic as it once was. People are not growing in the Word as in the past. Expectations are lower, and so is morale.
Nostalgia. Most churches have a period in their history that stands out above others. But some churches still live in that period though it’s long past. Nostalgia is fine if it is simply the act of fond memories. Nostalgia is sinful if it keeps the church from moving forward in Great Commission obedience.
In Iowa, our definitions are different. A Southern Baptist church in Iowa that runs more than 200 on Sunday is a megachurch by our standards. If a church goes over 100, the Hallelujah Chorus rings out across the state. We are a small group. But we have seen plenty of churches that once were great (by Iowa standards) and have since either folded completely or are paddling hard just to keep their heads above water. And these three items – hubris, denial and nostalgia – are often evident. We become enamored of our own supposed greatness, we deny the existence of problems and we focus on the past instead of facing the future.
I wonder if some of these same problems are markers of the current life of the SBC.
Hubris: I love the SBC, but can there be doubt that at time we have been self-important and arrogant at times? I have been in strategy meetings where we talk about “unentered counties” which have no Baptist church as if there is no gospel presence there. In Iowa, there are some counties with some great Evangelical Free, or Baptist churches of other stripes, or independent Bible churches that have a strong g0spel presence.
We are not the only boat fishing in the lake and we may not even be the best. We must realize that while God has done much through us as a convention, we may not have quite the place in the Kingdom that we have imagined.
Denial: I heard this one often in the early days of the reform movement in the SBC. There’s nothing wrong here. We are a good convention an all is well. Then, the numbers started to turn.
A cancer patient often feels healthy long after the disease starts to spread through the body. Often, symptoms are ignored or misunderstood until it is too late. The SBC may be exhibiting some signs of spiritual disease even though we are still vibrant in many ways. We are so splintered and divided it is hard for me to see a future of missions partnership. As the needs in the world grow greater, individual Baptists are keeping more and more of their money for themselves and investing less and less in the Kingdom. And churches are investing less and less into missions efforts. An inward focus is one of the first signs of a dying church – if its about us its not about Christ, is it?
The SBC is not dead, but I think there are some real problems we would do well not to ignore.
Nostalgia: Oh, those good old days. I remember hearing one man talk about his athletic career. “The older I get, the better I used to be!” I think the future of the SBC is threatened by the obsessive nostalgia of many in the SBC.
To hear some people talk, all we have to do to solve our problems is to go backwards to the good old days and to do things the way we used to do them in the 50s and 60s – the SBC’s days of glory. I’m all for looking back at the early church and trying, as best we can, to replicate the way things were done in that church, but I think that our obsessive looking back 50 years is an unhealthy nostalgia.
The world has changed. Attitudes and morals have changed. Our culture is very different than it was in my childhood days. If we insist on looking back, we will not go forward. God is infinitely creative and is not dependent on the same old strategies and programs. Every program the SBC had in those good old days that worked was once someone’s innovative idea. Who is to say that those old ways from the old days were the last creative innovations God would ever have?
We preach a very old message – and that should never change. Our doctrine should not change with the changing times. But our methods, our strategies and our approaches to engage this culture with the eternal gospel must be ever-open to change.
You can’t walk forward with your head always looking behind.
There is a rack of ribs at Texas Roadhouse that is calling to me. So, you can share your thoughts on this as you will. But I think that there is a real danger that the SBC could follow the course of once-great churches that have lost ground and become a once-great denomination.
What say you?
I’m not really a radical, but I think that the future of the SBC is, these days, in great doubt!
Skip the ribs, load up on free peanuts and take a steak home for lunch tomorrow.
No. Order lemon baked fish, with salad,
and take a tenderloin steak home for lunch tomorrow . . .
(and get fat-free dressing without sugar on it)
Eat WELL . . . and get well.
Ribs…ribs…ribs
no . . . no . . . no . . . NO!
Love me some baby back ribs.
At the Roadhouse, it’s steak all the way. Too many places better with the ribs than they are around here.
The SBC Churches have led many people to Our Lord.
As long as the SBC Churches preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified, as long as they point towards the Person of
Jesus Christ Risen From The Dead;
then the SBC Churches ARE participants in the sacred work of the Great Commission which began 2000 years ago and will continue until Our Lord returns to us.
Worried about diminishing ‘greatness’ ? Don’t.
The only greatness the Church could ever claim is found undiminished in the One who sends His people forth to serve.
We can look at many things that can be affecting the “growth” and “health” of our churches. I think we miss a major point when we see decline and begin to evaluate “what went wrong”. Maybe two things are happening. First, too much of our success may depend on what we want to establish as a program that brings in a few souls. Jesus said, “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18. Our examination should be… Read more »
Good thoughts, Bruce. You always bring a good perspective.
SBC “WENT” wrong when for so long it was so focused on numbers. Even today, through various sources, I hear the IMB puts pressure on its missionaries to produce numbers (aka converts) as a gauge on how successful they are, and whether or not their position in that area should be continued. Here in the states, if a churches baptism numbers drop off, old time SBC folk are told to think “What is wrong?” Let me tell you all something that I hope most of you know. God does NOT care about quantity, rather he cares about QUALITY. If a… Read more »
I have some ambivalence about numbers, I guess. I agree with you that we have created numerical markers of success and have often cut corners and replaced with work of the Spirit with human manipulation to achieve those numbers.
On the other hand, I believe that a numerical decline such as we are seeing ought to be an indicator that there is something wrong – or at least that we should search our souls to see if there is anything in them to hinder God’s power or quench God’s Spirit.
Whatever it was that added numbers back in the “glory day” built a collection of churches that’s hard-pressed to find half its members on a good Sunday. In light of what the Great Commission actually is, maybe we didn’t know what the word “glory” … in this context … even meant.
Brother Dave, I want to be careful here because I agree with most of what you have said. I certainly do not want to diminish my agreement by pointing you to two areas. I believe you negate the areas of my agreement when you use these two areas because they are just not accurate. First, you point out something that I have never heard anyone say, or even imply in writing that we do. To hear some people talk, all we have to do to solve our problems is to go backwards to the good old days and to do… Read more »
Sorry, that should be “House of the Rising Sun” instead of “House of New Orleans”. I was going by memory of the song lyrics instead of the actual title.
Tim
This song is dedicated to Tim Rogers, a convictional Baptist, Airborne Ranger who fell out of a plane without a ‘chut and lived, Husband of Gail, and my Pal. There Is a Shrimp Boat in New Orleans, They Call the Rising Sun. And It’s Been the Ruin of Many a Poor Boy, And Tim Rogers knows, he’s one. His Mother Was a Tailor, Sewed His New Blue Jeans. His Father Was a Shrimpin’ Man. Down in New Orleans. Now the Only Thing a Shrimper Needs Is A catch of a good weight. And the Only Time He’s Satisfied Is When… Read more »
Amazing Grace can also be sung to the tune of “Gilligan’s Island”.
Now try getting that out of your head.
As one that is very intensely studying Newton’s life and writings I have to inform you that Newton was a huge fan of all things Gilligan.
He was also a big fan of figs.
cb scott – Was that Fig Newton ?
cb scott – pea soup was also brought over but I never cared much for it.
The whole traditionalist movement has decried the fact that we have changed our structures from that which was going on 50 years ago. Some, see the CR as the point of departure. Others see the more cultural change that took place in the 90s and thereafter (modern music, less focus on institution, etc). And of course, you heard that everywhere during the GCR. And, in your second point, you either willfully or through the lack of reading what I wrote, misstate my point. I stated in the article that our timeless message doesn’t change. Here is what I said: “We… Read more »
Tim,
Dave is right. He was not advocating a moral shift.
You might have been a little “shrimpy” on that one. 🙂
Brother Dave,
Don’t talk past me, I am not trying to be disagreeable. I am not saying that you believe our message must change. I am saying your statement is that our “morals” have changed. This is where my disagreement lies. I am not one that believes our morals have changed. Help me understand what morals have changed that we have today?
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
I dedicated you a beautiful song. I think you should sing it in church next Sunday morning. I think that if you will, your flock will become more enlightened as to your journey in life and from where your moorings evolve. Or at least they will know where your shrimp boat is anchored.
He’s talking about cultural morals, not Christian morals.
It depends on who “our” refers to in the phrase “our morals”. Does it refer only to genuine Christians? Does it include moral church members who are not necessarily Christian? Does it include the idea that we are philosophically influenced by our culture? Part of the problem of the previous generation has been a touch of Judeo-Christian moralism in the culture. People came to church because it was the moral thing to do rather than because they honestly trusted Christ. So when it became “moral” to not go to church many stopped coming. They really weren’t spiritually invested in the… Read more »
Tim, it seems to me to be somewhat irrefutably manifest that the moral standards in America have changed. When I was young, homosexuality was viewed as sinful and perverted, even in non-Christian circles. Living together before marriage was frowned upon in our culture. None of that is true now. We live in a post-Christian culture with moral standards antithetical to the scriptures and vastly different than the ones that were predominant in my younger days. The world has changed a lot. The morals of the people all around us have changed a lot. The culture we live in no longer… Read more »
Dave,
So you are speaking of Cultural morals as a whole instead of Christian morals within the confines of the SBC? If you will look at your statement it defines your statement concerning “Nostalgia”. I figured you were speaking of the Christian morals we believe the Bible teaches within the setting we call the SBC.
Look, I told you in my first comment I was not trying to be disagreeable. So, I will bow out before CB write a song about me to the tune of “Mustang Sally”.
Blessings,
Tim
I don’t see how anyone with basic literacy skills could have misread Dave’s comment about the decline of morals in the wider culture.
Tim, you may want to check your historical references regarding Daniel Towner, the hymn tune composer for “At Calvary.”
I’ve heard that story told about “A Mighty Fortress” (that it was a bar tune that Luther co-opted), but now it seems more commonly held that Luther wrote both the words and the tune of that hymn. And, from what little (and online) research I did, you are right about Daniel Towner, who composed the tune to At Calvary.
Dave, the misunderstanding about “A Mighty Fortress” being a bar tune that Martin Luther co-opted for his church services seems to be a misreading of some historical documents. Many times he did incorporate many tunes “from the Mass” (i.e. from the Roman Catholic worship services) into his church’s worship. But this has been misattributed to tunes “from the masses” (i.e. popular tunes of his day), which I don’t believe he did. I believe “A Mighty Fortress,” the only tune most modern-day Christians associate with Luther (even though he wrote dozens, if not hundreds), was authentically Luther’s, and he got it… Read more »
Brother Kevin,
I have no problem conceding the point concerning the bar tune. Your knowledge of the musical history would probably be more than mine. My knowledge comes from my notes taken in my music class at SEBTS pre-PP.
Blessings,
Tim
I am not sure why the site is not allowing comments on my latest post. Maybe its demons??
Maybe. I long ago stopped getting notifications when someone replies to a comment I leave. So maybe there’s bugs in the system.
Well, I’m not a believer, much less SBC any more, but I did want to chime in if I may. I think this is a good article, and nicely written, though I do not entirely agree (and unavoidably so, simply because I belong to a different order of things). I think your criticisms are pretty much spot on. I just think that holding to the orthodox doctrine that the SBC claims will result in a shrinking membership as a matter of course, simply due to changing cultural values, both social and religious. I do not agree with Christian doctrine at… Read more »
Byroniac, i don’t find that our post-Christian society presents us with any real threat or persecution. Being mocked because one is not a party-animal is about the extent of what I’ve experienced. I don’t see the phenomenon you speak of happening any time soon. I just think people who are uninterested are more inclined to leave church these days because of a cultural shift. Churches that don’t ask anything of their members in the way of belief are simply offering what society already thinks. One can go to university and hear a lecture, and you can at least pick up… Read more »
Well, my loss of faith is off-topic so I won’t comment on it here, but some of it is available on my blog, and I plan to write more about it soon. I guess what was really in the back of my mind is this: there are many doctrines that are really attacked now, such as the church stance on homosexuality, and the Genesis story of origins (and pretty much anything in the first 11 chapters at least) so Creation versus Evolution, and exclusivity of salvation. Some of these are contrary to the dominant scientific view, others (such as the… Read more »
I am sorry for giving the possible impression in my words that religious belief inherently causes one to be less objective than secular non-belief. By writing that, I have revealed another subjective bias, proving my point. I would like to think that I have become more objective than I was previously, though I believe that objectivity led me towards skepticism. However, the religious truths of Christianity cannot be acquired using objective thinking as best as I can tell, because its beliefs come from the Bible as a text believed to be divinely inspired and therefore a product of revelation and… Read more »
No, God is not come by through reasoning. Not really. It is a matter of revelation as I see it. Of faith, really. Belief in the character of the God who gave it. And something supernatural occurred, too. But what is objectivity? We all see the world personally. Hopefully we come to see it accurately. If you can achieve broadness of vision then you can see something beyond yourself, but still inclusive of yourself and somewhat peculiar to who you are indivdiually.
I’m very familiar with Calvinism and I don’t find it very interesting. Apparently there are many who do, and I’m having a difficult time trying to demonstrate the absurdity of that system.
I’m not sure what you mean by “interesting” sal. If that were true in the sense I understand it, you would not even be talking about it, much less “trying to demonstrate the absurdity of that system” to others. Not to chase a race horse galloping away from the topic at hand, but believe me I can see where you are coming from when you call that system absurd. The thing is, if I ever returned to faith, I would go back to Calvinism and nothing else. I am not sure why, but perhaps it is because my belief is… Read more »
I forgot to add that instead of “interesting” perhaps you meant you do not find it “persuasive” as you do seem to find it interesting in the sense you appear to have devoted a lot of time to it, is all (so have I, and I continue to occasionally pursue study of it).
Brother Byronaic,
Not trying to ride that galloping horse, but do you not see the absurdity of expressing that you have lost your faith but were adamant for a system that says you cannot loose salvation, and now saying if you return you will return to that same system?
Salvation is not a system it is a Person and his name is Jesus. Praying for your true salvation.
Blessings,
Tim
I agree with Tim.
Hello, Tim Rogers. I can understand how it is absurd from a particular perspective: how can one believe salvation cannot be lost and then lose faith and still believe that the idea of being unable to lose salvation is valid? But, as I understood Calvinism, the Perseverance of the Saints did not preclude a temporary, even long term, loss of faith, because once regenerated, a permanent loss of faith is impossible. And because election (and regeneration) is impossible to discern infallibly, even in oneself, many possibilities exist to explain a loss of faith: 1) the person was never truly regenerated,… Read more »
Thanks, Byroniac. Your choice of persuasive is far better. I’m interested in understanding why people are calvinistic. I want to get at why people pursue it. In that sense it interests me. it doesn’t interest me as a way to answer the questions I ask about myself and the world. I think there’s a mindset or a personality that’s drawn to it. I suspect this because of calvinists I’ve come in contact with in the past. I do think it’s persuasive to them, thoguh not to myself. I can see where a certain person might find it persuasive and more… Read more »
Objective/subjective, two sides, two ideas, apparently contradictory, can’t be reconciled, not meant to be, they are to be held together in the mind as the producer of a tension which enables one to be balanced and flexible. Some times, one needs to be objective, collect data, analyze, etc. At other times, one must be subjective, warm, affirming, supportive, and loving. Having been an atheist, given to the paralysis of analysis, I do appreciate the both/and approach of biblical Christian faith. The happiness and joy even in the midst of rounds with doubts and depression, etc., more than compensates for my… Read more »