Growing is the list of “unchangeables” from the perspective of our society.
- Terrorists do not change, we are told. They can never be rehabilitated. Lock them away forever.
- Bullies do not change, we are told. It’s better not to trust them.
- Failed cities and their inhabitants do not change, we are told. That’s just the way that neighborhood is. Let the police clamp down on it as much as they can and keep those people over there.
- Sexual offenders do not change, we are told. Register them. Monitor them. Never give them a break.
- Sexual orientation and gender identity do not change, we are told (expect, that is, to leave heterosexuality in favor of homosexuality). Once you’re born that way (which is a political tautology, not a scientific discovery), you’re stuck there forever.
- Substance abusers are always going to go back to the booze or the dope. It’s just too hard to beat.
- Give a job to an ex-con? You’ve got to be kidding! He’s just going to wind up in prison again.
…and the list goes on. Ours is a people who generally believe in the inevitability of recidivism (relapse into a former bad way of life).
But a lot of the “facts” upon which we base our perspectives may not be factually sound. People speak pretty frequently about the recidivism rate among sexual offenders, for example, leaving the impression that sex offenders are far more likely to re-offend than are criminals of other types. That’s actually not true. Thieves have a higher recidivism rate than sex offenders. So do drug users, prostitutes, and murderers (in addition to the preceding link, here are some supplemental data from one state that corroborate the NIJ statistics). Now, it is true that convicted sex offenders are more likely to commit another sex offense than a former bank robber is likely to commit a sex offense (duh). Yes, the former bank robber, if he commits another crime, is likely to rob a bank again rather than sexually assault someone. But the Federal Bureau of Justice Statistics reported
“Compared to non-sex offenders released from State prison, sex offenders had a lower overall rearrest rate. When rearrests for any type of crime (not just sex crimes) were counted, the study found that 43% (4,163 of 9,691) of the 9,691 released sex offenders were rearrested. The overall rearrest rate for the 262,420 released non-sex offenders was higher, 68% (179,391 of 262,420)” (source).
What about this is important?
I believe that people can change. To put it more accurately, I believe that people can BE changed. I believe that it lies within the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ to change anyone. I’m not saying that every change is equally difficult to make. I’m not saying that nobody will ever relapse into significant struggles with past temptations. I’m simply asserting that I take it as a cardinal point of my faith that God can change anyone through the power of the gospel.
I’m a believer in “such were some of you.”
As a true believer in this idea, I find it important to put the facts in front of you. I find it important to note that more than half of convicted sex offenders never face charges again. I find it important to note that nearly one in four drug offenders will never face charges again once they get out of prison. I find it important to note that one in five people arrested for a property crime will never be arrested again.
Why do I find it important to note these things? Because the worst kind of recidivism comes when people acquainted with the gospel go back to a way of thinking that denies it—having escaped the prison of a sinful world into a new creation, they return to thinking about the world the same old way. They lose sight of the idea that Jesus is mighty to save. This is the worst kind of recidivism because of the impact it has upon our churches:
- It leads Christians to do the unthinkable—to say no to the gospel on other peoples’ behalf. “She’s a prostitute. She’s not interested in the gospel. I’m not going to witness to her. He’s a druggie. Let’s skip to the next house and share the gospel over there. He’s a registered sex offender. That kind of person never changes. Don’t knock on that door.” Yet those are just the sorts of people to whom Jesus deliberately went. Force people who are going to reject the gospel to reject it for themselves. Never reject the gospel on behalf of anyone else by proxy.
- It leads Christians to doubt the wrong people (and trust the wrong people). The most dangerous people in your congregation are not the convicted sex offenders you know about; they’re the undiscovered sex offenders you don’t know about. Yes, half of those ex-con sex offenders are going to be arrested again in the future (most of them within the first year of their release), but you know how to keep them out of children’s ministries and it’s going to be hard for them to sneak up on people who already know their past crimes. And statistically speaking, you’ve a greater risk that the ex-con embezzler will steal from your church’s retirees than that the ex-con sex offender will molest your church’s children.
- It leads Christians to support injustices in our criminal justice system. I think that the sex offender registry is a good thing when it alerts us to the forty-year-old man who has been convicted twice for stalking and molesting little boys. I think it is a bad thing when it makes people in a community lump that man into the same category as a twenty-year-old man who slept with his seventeen-year-old girlfriend and was convicted of statutory rape. That’s an injustice to the twenty-year-old, and few are the people willing to plead for him.
Conclusion
Many of the people who have been convicted of offenses like these are not monsters (which does not in the least deny that what they did was monstrous). Can you take a moment to consider that although what you know about the victims of sexual abuse is correct (how badly they’ve been traumatized, how much they need justice, how wrong it is to cover up what has been done to them or to blame them at all for the way that they were assaulted) what you think you know about the perpetrator (that he has a sickness from which he can never be set free, will definitely do something like this again, and must never be allowed to move past his offenses) might be incorrect? Most of these offenders will get out of prison and will stay out of trouble for the rest of their lives. Some of them will be driven out of town after town by people unwilling to look beyond their past crimes and try to find out who they are today.
Be vigilant about protecting your flock from predators. We are. I am. That’s our duty. No one who has been convicted of a crime against children or a sex-based offense is going to be ministering to minors at FBC Farmersville.
But also be vigilant about finding those whom the world has written off as pariahs and untouchables and sharing with them the good news of a God who can change anyone. That’s our duty, too, you know.
To your broader point: During my first round of seminary, I pastored a small country church for three years. They had some beliefs I disagreed with (they were a non-denominational ex-Methodist church who started hiring baptistic pastors after pulling out of the UMC, so… You can imagine). While I was there, I preached the word and loved the people. The church grew and people (slowly) were transforming spiritually. When I graduated and left, I helped them find another student. He had been in one of the churches that had a lot of students and several seminary profs in leadership. After… Read more »
Precisely. And although I’ve highlighted sex offenders as our most egregious failure in this regard, the broader idea is the point of the post.
I’m with you in “such were some of you” and “a new creation” in Christ, a true believer in the reality of being changed in Christ. Since you return to sex offenders often in your article, I make the presumption that such is the catalyst for your writing this. I offer a few observations and I’d be genuinely interested in your opinion: 1. Crime statistics are fuzzy things that depend on definitions and reporting and such. I don’t think that it is disputed that sex abuse (particularly abuse of minors) is vastly underreported and the great majority of cases involve… Read more »
1. Although sex crimes are underreported, when they are reported, there’s little trouble identifying and locating the perpetrator. People always report a bank robbery, but the police don’t always get their man. Also, although sex crimes are underreported for first-offenders, I don’t find that people are reluctant to report people with prior convictions for sex crimes. When the registered sex offender hangs out for too long in the parking lot for Chuck E Cheese, somebody calls the police. So, although I would place very little confidence in FIRST arrest statistics for sex offenses (because of the underreporting), I’m comfortable hanging… Read more »
“What bothers me is the way that we treat people who commit certain sins as though they have an untreatable, unforgivable damnable condition that is more powerful than the gospel, such that we would rather they weren’t in church, weren’t trying to associate with us, weren’t trying to befriend us, etc.”
Absolutely. Amen. Well said. Bingo.
What bothers me is when we so flippantly speak of God’s forgiveness that we treat all sins the same — as if the sin of sexual abuse is of no greater consequence than any other sin
Are you making some accusation against Bart?
I thought his post made an important point about the gospel. No post can speak all truth, but are you accusing Bart if something in this post?
No, I am making a general statement about how we speak of the sin of sexual abuse. Most of the articles I have read this week give a nod to the heinousness of sexual sin and then move very quickly to the “but God forgives” theme.
Then perhaps you ought to write an article that makes the points you feel are valuable.
This one, to me, makes a valuable, biblical, and necessary contribution to the discussion which in no way belittles the victims of abuse.
My problem with Bart is that he’s right about our duty to preach grace to abusers — my own experience with the devastating effects of this sin make it difficult for me to have anything but contempt for sexual predators.
Todd,
Both are true. Sexual abuse is a terrible sin. AND, God does forgive. Shouldn’t both be talked about? And, should we leave the sinners, out there, in the land of guilt and shame with no hope?
Bart’s point is that many in our society think that people can’t change….once a drug addict, always a drug addict….once a sex offender, always a sex offender….once a thief, always a thief. But, this denies the power of the Gospel. I agree with Bart, which strangely, I often do find myself agreeing with Bart…not on everything, but on a lot of things.
David
But in the light of the Duggar case we are only talking about the one and not the other.
Sexual abuse is not just a sin, Todd; it’s a crime. It ought to be a crime. It ought to bring down upon the perpetrator the punishment that it warrants.
But nobody is beyond the grace of God, and no sin is unconquerable.
You know, Todd, having looked back over your comments, it seems to me that they deal more with the question of justice than the question of recidivism. In other words, there’s an open question as to whether the criminal has really paid the debt of justice that he owed from the initial crime. I don’t read you’re saying that you know for certain that this person will offend again; you’re saying that you know for certain that this person has already offended and you seem not to be certain that justice has yet been served upon him. That’s an open… Read more »
“What bothers me is the way that we treat people who commit certain sins as though they have an untreatable, unforgivable damnable condition that is more powerful than the gospel, such that we would rather they weren’t in church, weren’t trying to associate with us, weren’t trying to befriend us, etc.”
The absolute best way to test out the “repentent” child molester is to have him babysit your grandkids over a weekend while you are away.
Lydia,
We shouldn’t put people in places of great temptation. Just because people are saved and changed by the power of the Gospel doesn’t mean that they’re ABOVE temptation. It’s like putting a drunk in a bar by himself, for a weekend, after God saved him from a life of drunkenness. Or, putting a man, who was addicted to porno, in one of those sex shops we see while driving down the interstate. That’s just foolish.
David
If you guys are going to preach about the power of the Gospel for personal transformation then walk the talk or get into the details of safety with those you are speaking to.
Did it occur to you that parents might be a bit uncomfortable with someone in their midst who might be looking at their little children with lust and as objects for satisfaction? That is why most pastors protect the privacy of molesters. They know how it would play out.
Lydia,
So, your answer to sinners is to cast them out, forever? To tell them that there’s no hope for you? To tell them that God has no place for you at the table? to tell them that they’re too bad for God and God’s people?
David
“So, your answer to sinners is to cast them out, forever? To tell them that there’s no hope for you? To tell them that God has no place for you at the table? to tell them that they’re too bad for God and God’s people?
I did not realize that the local institutional Church where there are many little innocent temptations is the only place where they can receive God’s grace.
do you have any idea the amount of con that goes into being a pedophile?
Lydia,
1. Not all convicted sex offenders are pedophiles.
2. The New Testament knows nothing of an unchurched Christian.
3. It is possible to receive someone as a brother or sister in Christ without inviting them to care for minors. There are tons of people in churches who’ve never been convicted of anything who still ought not to be caring for minors.
There is a difference between forgiveness and stupidity. Displaying grace to a thief does not mean you make him church treasurer. An alcoholic needs to be careful where he goes.
Are you saying, Lydia, that the sex offender is beyond Christ’s grace and ought to be excluded from the church and treated as an untouchable,
Is that your solution?
“Are you saying, Lydia, that the sex offender is beyond Christ’s grace and ought to be excluded from the church and treated as an untouchable”
I am saying you do not have the insight or power to declare whether or not they are totally transformed. Neither do I. Better to err on the side of protecting the innocent.
Shall I tell you why I ceased from folly? Why I turned away from sin? ’Twas because the love of my Redeemer Fully won my heart to Him. This is why I love my Savior, Why I love to follow Him; For He died my soul to ransom, And He washed me from my sin. Do you ask me why I seek no pleasure In the things I once did love? ’Tis because I’ve tasted life’s pure river, Flowing from the throne above. Would you bid me give to all a reason Of the hope I now possess? It is… Read more »
A hymn by Daniel Warner
“Better to err on the side of protecting the innocent.”
How exactly Lydia in the context of church life do you protect the innocent when there is a person with a past such as described in this post and professes Christ and repentance? How specifically?
I do not think we are able to be faithful to God and to tell a sinner that they are beyond God’s grace or unwelcome in the church. To tell an offender that he is welcome under conditions that protect children? Amen. We ought to do that. In a previous church, we had a stalker who was attending our church. I invited him to attend elsewhere. I arranged with deacons to escort him from the front door any and everywhere he went to make sure he did not harass the young lady. He didn’t show. But when the church begins… Read more »
And, I would say it is better not to err.
Let’s not give in to sin and failure. Let’s try to get it right before we accept that we are going err one way or the other.
The high profile failures of several churches cannot be taken as absolute indication that there is no possibility of doing it right. Why say, “We are going to err, let’s err this way.” Why not try to get it right? Why not try to both protect children and minister to the worst of sinners?
“1. Not all convicted sex offenders are pedophiles” Understood. It is just that predators have become a problem in evangelicalism in case you have not been paying attention. “2. The New Testament knows nothing of an unchurched Christian.” We would probably not agree in totality of what constitutes the Body of Christ because you make your living in the institutional church. That is ok. I am not really interested in going there. “3. It is possible to receive someone as a brother or sister in Christ without inviting them to care for minors. There are tons of people in churches… Read more »
Umm ” I’m comfortable hanging my hat on RE-arrest statistics for sex offenses.” I feel like I have dropped into the twilight zone reading this article. Perhaps Mr. Barber, I wonder how “comfortable” you would be speaking to “victims” who never had the satisfaction or Justice afforded to them by seeing an “arrest” come to fruition for their abuse? How about plea deals Mr. Barber? Do they give you a warm and fuzzy feeling when the judicial sets up deals for lesser charges, due to the age of the victim? In 2012 the The American Psychiatric Association expanded its definition… Read more »
What bothers me is the presumption you and other “men of faith” think they have the “capacity and education” to deal with offenders and then presume to expose their congregations to these disturbed individuals. One can compare it to a thousand mile journey across the ocean. Would I want to depend on a person who has never been on a boat to be responsible for the “pre-check” of the equipment prior to launching by “praying over it” . Considering even the so-called Experts admit we are still in the stone age when understanding the mindsets of these particular criminals. I… Read more »
One thing you might want to consider or ask about concerning recidivism rates for sexual predators of children is for how long do they gather stats? For example, one sociologist said that often those stats only reflect the first 3 years after being released from prison.
Just something to consider when looking at these sorts of stats. I was very involved in workforce development for years and know the unemployment stats are a joke because of what they count and how they count it.
One thing that may help explain the lower repeat rate for sex offenders is the fact…and it IS a fact…that a MUCH closer watch is kept on them than any other kind of criminal. I mean, does your city, or any website you know of, tell you how many burglars, car thieves, or even bank robbers live near you? Or make them register so the law can keep track of them? No, after a set period of parole, no one keeps track because these types of criminals do not pose the kind of danger to women and children that sex… Read more »
Good point on the close supervision.
I’m not sure what you mean by this: “the true sex offender has a special kind of problem that is seldom overcome by anything short of the grace of God.”
Good insights.
And, I think it tells us something if it is true that oversight and encouragement makes a difference. Aren’t those things, ideally, aspects of Christian discipleship? Here’s a conversation I once held with someone in my office: “You’re going to prison. We’ve already spoken with the authorities, and it’s clear that you are guilty. When you get out, you’re going to find somewhere to live other than here, because you don’t need to live near your victims. When that day comes, I’m going to go with you to a local church in that area and together we’re going to approach… Read more »
Bart, did you actually do this? How did it work out? Do you really believe he was “changed?” If so, why no opportunity to have a position of authority? I think you plan has great merit, but I also think it is much harder than you post implies–that is, to actually pull it off. I am speaking from having a similar experience of accepting a convicted sex offender into our congregation. I have to admit, it did not have a happy ending. You sight the statistic that “over half of the sex offenders do not face further charges.” That is… Read more »
Jack,
I had the conversation. He’s still in the slammer. We’ll see how it goes.
God bless. I pray God will give you an extra measure of insight.
Again, thanks for taking time to post on this important matter.
What I am hearing is a lot of fear and suspicion based mostly on ignorance. This conversation of half were cured, but half were not is bogus. Go back and re-read the original comment. It stated that almost half of those originally convicted of a sex related crime committed “some other” crime within a specified period of release. Department of Justice statistics, as well as, most other studies of recidivism of sex offenders find that only 1-3% commit a sex related crime. There is a lot of supposition as to why other crimes (non-sexual – that lead to the 1/2… Read more »
After reading that? All I can hear is a “dinner bell” ringing. With all due respect many Churches have encountered this problem. The offenders don’t target their victims in the church chapel, the church nursery or some darkened hallway. Some members of the “congregation” are asked to help the offender with a job, a task, an employment position. These are the places of “opportunity” the offender will seek to re-offend. Certainly not in full view at Sunday services. In the last 5 years that I have had a view of this topic, many Churches have had to close their doors… Read more »
Is your name really Red Berry? If it is, that is awesome!
David
“Red” is a nickname. Got it legitimately…had flaming red hair….until it turned gray. At least it didn’t turn loose!
“One thing that may help explain the lower repeat rate for sex offenders is the fact…and it IS a fact…that a MUCH closer watch is kept on them than any other kind of criminal. ”
Many moons ago, I was asked to accompany staff of a non profit abuse center where i was a board member to a prison to record interviews with pedophiles. It was a shock. Did you know the average is 100 victims before they are caught and convicted?
And was back in the late ninety’s before internet child pornography. do you all have any idea whata child must go through before that heinous crime is even seen on a screen by the perverts?
68% of those actually convicted of child porn have had a Live victim.
78% use Child porn as an exhilarant Prior to committing a “live crime”, during a Live crime and or to relive the experience of a Live crime.
Kudos in the original intent of your posting but there is so much miss information and myths floating around in the conversation that I had to throw in my two cents. Study after study have been conducted on the registry and residency restrictions looking at the information both before and after the crack down on sex offenders and the creation of the registry. And what have they found? There is absolutely no significant change in recidivism rates for sex offenders either before or after the law changed. Why can’t we as a society allow sex offenders a fair second chance?… Read more »
Kate: Thank you so much for your input. I truly think your analogy “I was not aware that the teachings of the Bible were a salad bar that we could pick and choose what to strive for.” is right on the mark. I have asked many times….when does redemption begin? Society could lock up every one of the 819,218 men, women and children registrants across the nation and it would not stop child sexual abuse. The best chance we have to begin eradicating it is education and training. We teach our children to be polite, do as they are told… Read more »
It may be prudent Vicki to expand on ALL of your family members who have offended and I doubt it would Hurt if you included the “ages” of the assaulted also. Your “just say no” educational policy doesn’t have a high success rate when dealing with toddlers and very young children. These small children cant wrap their heads around what is being done to them. Not to mention a healthy society does not use their young people as sexual toilets. There are just some crimes that should never be forgiven. I find it presumptuous that the act of “forgiveness” is… Read more »
“Why can’t we as a society allow sex offenders a fair second chance?”
You could role model that for us by hiring one to babysit for you.
Lydia,
There’s a huge difference in allowing a ex-sex offender to come to the worship service of your Church, and hiring him to be a baby sitter. C’mon, now. Let’s be reasonable. NO ONE is saying to be a convicted, sex offender around children. NO ONE is saying to let him work in VBS. NO ONE.
David
David, I see many people saying they would have some supervised arrangement with a confessedly repentant pedophile. There are 52 Sundays every year. Your supervision system has to fail only once for a recidivist pedophile to be successful.
That’s why if I were to try this route everyone in the church would know and the abuser’s photo would be available so he would be recognized.
Imagine if you had a guy you only informed deacons or staff about and not parents or grandparents. You’d be fired or lose a lot of members who lost confidence in your judgment.
So you are advocating that a church issue its own sex offender registry for its members? As if the local listings – always on the internet – are not sufficient. Let’s bludgeon the congregation with derogatory information about each other for the “greater good”. But lets not stop at sex offenders… I want to know who are the drug dealers and users, spousal abusers, alcoholics, ones with violent pasts, etc. Let’s identify all the adulterers… shoot, I don’t want my wife around someone like that. If you can’t accept the responsibility for your children’s well being in a worship service,… Read more »
Our friends in the law enforcement fields as well as in the prison wards have a much harder time with “such were some of you.” The ones I know are often to jaded and calloused to the evil in humanity. They have seen “conversions” and they have seen real transformations by God. The disparity between the former and later is great. These law enforcement professionals often become much more like the wives, mothers, sisters and daughters William spoke of in their attitudes. And perhaps more like the male victims of sexual abuse. Trust in true remorse, repentance and full rehabilitation… Read more »
In my experience, many of our friends in law enforcement feel the same way about drug offenders, DWI folks, etc.
Bart, thanks for writing this. It was thought-provoking, so I’ll share a thought it provoked. It seems to me that individuals and societies have a tendency to assuage the guilt over their own sins by singling out a special class of sinners to receive exceptional scorn and punishment. This strategy works best when the scapegoat class is guilty of a sin that the majority feels assured they will never commit. For example, for a long time in our country homosexuals were such a class. Now that we’ve accepted homosexuality and so many other sins as normal, pedophiles and those who… Read more »
Jeff,
William Thornton had this right.
Perhaps let your wife (a female) read the blog and your response.
Such illumination might be interesting.
I have met with too many who were on the abused side of this story not to lean in their direction when applying grace and believing God for the miracle trans-formative power He offers.
Wisdom also tells me to trust God fully and trust the offender (any on Bart’s list of unchangeable’s) slowly.
So if my wife agrees with Bart’s post and my comment, will that convince you that we’re right? 🙂
This isn’t about taking sides. Restoration is not a zero-sum game in which we must choose between helping the victim or the abuser.
Absolutely.
Bingo.
Bart, Your comment…..”I’m a believer in “such were some of you;” is spot on. I always cringe when I hear people make some of the statements you mentioned above; about people not ever changing and staying that way for the rest of their lives. And, I hear things like this said, a lot…in real life and on TV. And yet, this is a direct contradiction to what the Bible teaches. God can change people’s lives, and He does change people’s lives. If it’s not true that God makes us into a new creation in Christ, then we’re all in a… Read more »
Another factor in considering recidivism rates is that “sexual offenders” is such a broad category that it includes everything from public exposure to sex between a young adult and a teenager to forcible rape to pedophile serial child molesters. Here is a DOJ article that helps unpack the numbers you cited: http://www.csom.org/pubs/recidsexof.html
Further, I contend we must more fully consider the damage and long term impact of sexual abuse on its victims. We should pay as much or, IMO, exceedingly more attention to ministering hope and healing to the brokenhearted as we do restoration and forgiveness for the abuser.
Very true, Todd, but ministering to one does not require ignoring the other.
And the point that I think is driving the article is the idea that I’ve heard repeatedly – that people who commit this sin can’t change.
They can change, but often don’t. Treating all sexual offenses as one category in the stats leads to the erroneous conclusion that child molesters have a low recidivism rate and that simply is not true.
Todd,
So, what would you tell a sex offender? I mean, a bad one…that molested several, little boys? If you were witnessing to him…
David
Depends? Are they under genuine conviction? If not, I have no problem preaching God’s judgment. If so, I’d probably send them to you or Bart.
I do understand I have a problem similar to Jonah in this regard.
Todd,
I’ve been preaching thru Jonah, interestingly enough.
David
1. That the category is overly broad is part of my critique. I entirely agree.
2. That we must minister to victims is also a matter upon which we agree.
You and I are in agreement, Bart. I’m really having an emotional reaction to my own experiences with the devastation of sexual abuse.
That emotional reaction is well-earned. I don’t begrudge you your reaction.
On a related note, churches should consider having a policy to address sex offenders. Our church is crafting such a policy right now. We already have child-protection policies that require (among other things) the church to do background checks for all persons working with minors and to report any suspected abuse to the relevant authorities. This new policy addition would require a convicted sex offender who wants to attend or join our church to sign an agreement that (1) he will not have access to children or children’s areas and (2) he must be accompanied by a designated chaperone at… Read more »
Jeff, would you be willing to forward me this document once your church agrees on it. We were doing some work on this awhile back as well. Interested to see what you came up with.
What do your lawyers and insurance companies require as a document?
I don’t believe there is anything on what to do when a sex offender wants to become a member. That is the part where we were working on to make more explicit.
Our policy was made with the oversight of a lawyer who was acting in an advisory capacity. What they need is a reasonable procedure that is spelled out in advance and is followed in practice. In some areas, there is defined legal wording (at will employment, non-discrimination, etc) that needs to be incorporated, but in others, its just a matter of spelling out reasonable policies and taking reasonable steps to protect children. Then, when a problem comes, you follow the steps and do the right thing. Call the authorities. Act in the best interests of the abused. Provide counseling for… Read more »
Mike,
I’ll be glad to forward you a copy of our policy once it is completed, as well as the template policy provided by our state convention.
A church that doesn’t have clear child protection policies and procedures is walking in folly.
I would love to turn the discussion back to Bart’s post. Some of the commenters seem offended by Bart’s contention that sex offenders are within the reach of grace. Why does that offend? Why does that bother anyone? Does saying that a homosexual is within the reach of God’s grace mean that we are “soft on homosexuality?” Must we maintain that all homosexuals are bound for hell to say we are against homosexuality? Does saying that an abuser can be saved, forgiven and TRANSFORMED in any way belittle the suffering of the abused? It seems that this is the argument… Read more »
I am not often on the receiving end of admonishment from Dave, so when I am, I take note. It’s probably deserved. As it stands, I really have no issue with Bart’s post save the usefulness of the statistics for the reasons I’ve stated above. As for his statements about the gospel, I am in whole agreement. Bart is completely right on his theology here — there is hope and forgiveness to even the worst of sinners. My frustrations are really aimed at the blogosphere generally and its nature as a reactive rather than proactive medium for theological discussion. The… Read more »
One of the best articles I’ve read (and I’ve read few – not being a Duggar fan, the whole story doesn’t excite me) was one written about how the whole story abuses the poor girls who were abused – 12 (?) years ago. By putting this back in the news, they’ve slammed this back in these girls faces. I don’t know what kind of counseling or help they received (possibly bad). But I’m guessing that this whole furor has caused them to relive the pain. I wasn’t kidding when I said that an article by you, Todd, on how to… Read more »
I’d like to read that article, too.
Dave, could you provide a link to that article? I think thats a great point.
I found this article, which I thought was the original (this is a comment edit) but it is the article below by Christy Lee Parker that is the original.
http://joemiller.us/2015/05/duggar-girls-victimized-and-it-wasnt-over-10-years-ago-like-youve-heard/
Here’s another that says the same thing.
http://www.inquisitr.com/2113884/re-victimization-of-the-duggar-girls-why-the-duggars-should-be-granted-privacy-to-heal/
Check that, this is the first article I read, by someone named Christy Lee Parker.
http://madworldnews.com/duggar-girls-victimized/
I know nothing about her either, or the places any of these were posted. But the article made sense.
Warning – the ads on this site and the others are not exactly edifying.
Was already working on it before reading Bart’s piece — but how to condense volumes of info into a 1000 word article?!?
That was one of my points with Bart’s article. No article can contain all truth. Just part of it.
“How should a church minister to victims of sexual abuse?” If it needs to be more than one post, I’m willing.
Since this will get deleted to, God help you!
That should be too. Not to.
This is always an intersting discussion. Having followed child sex abuse cases in SBC churches for some years I cannot say that the biggest problem is the lack of grace extended to the abusers. Ignoring or disbelieving accusers, siding with beloved church staff or members who are accused of abuse, and failure to involve law enforcement are all problems of greater frequency. One need not choose among them but do all. When we say that abusers (especially pedophiles) “can change” I don’t know what that means. Elimination of sexual desire for prepubscent children? Power to supress such desires? Should child… Read more »
I certainly wouldn’t assert that a lack of grace to abusers is the major problem in churches right now. I’d put it this way, I think: 1. If there is a person in a church who is well-liked, connected with a multi-generational influential family in the church, serving on the staff, or prominent in the community, it is all-too-often the case that a church will bury evidence of the crime and will put pressure on the offenders not to say anything. 2. If there is a person in a community who is a registered sex offender but who does not… Read more »
And thanks for the vote of pastoral confidence!
William, that may well be true, but after 12 years I wonder if the 5 girls were thrilled to have this trumpeted. I don’t know. Not one of them has spoken out, to my knowledge. Is that because of the climate of fear in their culture? Again, I don’t know. I think that the articles I mentioned had a valid point. In their haste to stick it to the Duggars (and let’s at least admit that a LOT of people – both Christian and not – want to do that) the press has exposed this incident without much regard to… Read more »
Yep.
I asked an ‘expert’ once what a pastor should do if abuse that occured 10-15 years ago. He said call your lawyer and insurer. There are a lot of complexities in old cases. Georgia just changed laws in this regard.
There are good reasons that abusers (and their enablers) tell victims to keep quiet or they will suffer more. It’s often true.
I’ve said very little about the current case.
But there are many other reasons to not bring up something from the past than the motivation to shield the perpetrator.
Bart, granted your conclusion that sexual offenders can change by the power of the gospel, I still think it is dangerous to rely on recidivism rates to make your case. Further, I don’t think that you can separate the justice issue from the point about recidivism. My justice issue is not that current sentencing is insufficient but that sexual offenders, and particularly child molesters, are rarely brought to justice at all. Consider that 90+% of sexual crimes go unreported and many of those that do, do so after the statue of limitations has run out. Unlike any other category of… Read more »
Todd, I see your point, but I wonder, if not recidivism rates, with what are we left? The fear of recidivism (presumably based upon some idea what the recidivism rates are) is a major motivation behind the entire idea of registering sex offenders (which I support in the case of pedophiles, among others). And there’s going to need to be some objective basis for our doing something that runs so contrary to our basic ideas concerning justice—punishing people not for the crimes that they have already committed but for the crimes that we think they might someday commit. If we… Read more »
I would not argue that recidivism rates have no value, but that the specific factors related to sexual assault statistics limit their value for certain kinds of analysis. We have sufficient evidence to suggest that general recidivism numbers are unreliable because of differences in the ways such data is gathered and who is included in the statistics making different reports vary widely in their reporting. More narrow studies that focus on particular groups, such as child molesters, are more reliable. Yet, because sexual assault crimes are significantly underreported and have low prosecution rates, the usefulness of the data is further… Read more »
I think what has not been shown that would need to be shown in order to devalue entirely any comparisons would be the margin of error in the recidivism rate of other crimes. To demonstrate that there is underreporting and under-prosecution of sex crimes is insufficient—one must also show that other categories of crime are not underreported and are not under-prosecuted or that the rates for other crimes is far, far lower. This is evidence that has not been presented in this argument. 1. On average, how many occasions does a drunk-driver drive under the influence before being caught and… Read more »
I read these comments with a great deal of interest. Namely, that some of these assertions greatly argue against the registry. If, in fact, most perpetrators of sex crimes go unreported and therefore unconvicted, the registry is reporting the few that weren’t sly enough to avoid capture. Thus, listing them on a registry is discriminatory since they are in the minority and not the ones you should be concerned with. As much as some may wish that the recidivism rate information was inconclusive, study after study underscores that sex offenders are at or near the lowest classification of criminals to… Read more »
Bart, Vol, Red; I’m now sorry that I was on the road 1,000 miles yesterday and missed the comments. If Tracy did not notice this; I will add that Red Berry is a well loved name from our past (quite a while past). Great to hear from you. Dale
Somehow I missed your comment until Tracy pointed it out to me last night. Yesterday was pretty full.
“How exactly Lydia in the context of church life do you protect the innocent when there is a person with a past such as described in this post and professes Christ and repentance? How specifically?” You can’t. Most have no clue what a long calculated con a molester has lived. They are expert cons. And church is the perfect place for the “repentant pervert” to hide out and be accepted at the same time. you could have them escorted everywhere they go in the church but is that realistic?. if parents know, then they are going to be uncomfortable with… Read more »
(in a strong Seinfeld Soup-Nazi accent) “NO GRACE FOR YOU!!”
“(in a strong Seinfeld Soup-Nazi accent) “NO GRACE FOR YOU!!””
I agree. Especially for the innocent “temptations” at church.
Pedophiles, probably especially publicly penitent ones, deserve special attention in churches, for good reason (I affirm the point made above that not all sex abusers are pedophiles). Many of the scenarios and not a few sad cases: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/03/06/psa-penitent-pedophiles-and-crossway-community-church-sgm-graphic/ “You are about to board an airplane which has recently been repaired after a serious engine malfunction. As you board the plane, the pilot announces that all is well. The mechanics have assured him that there is now only a 40% chance of an engine failure while in flight. Would you board the plane?” Recidivism is irrelevant when talking to a parent.… Read more »
Sometimes in this thread I think we wind up talking past one another. I”m going to try to connect us up here: 1. If you have ever been convicted of any (a) sexually based offense, (b) violent crime, or (c) crime against children at any point in your life, no matter how long ago it was nor what you’ve done in the interim, you are not going to serve in any capacity in this church that puts you into ministerial contact with minors, gives you access to those parts of the campus set aside for minors, or otherwise connects you… Read more »
Bart wins the thread!
This is exactly what we are talking about Lydia and Debbie –
Yall are arguing against comments and sentiments not expressed.
Your outrage is noted – as is your disgust for the grace, word and forgiveness of God – such has so tainted you against holding any reasonable discussion.
How does Lydia show disgust for the grace, word and forgiveness of God? Does that mean you approve of child molesters? Bart, how closely have you worked with victims of sexual abuse? Specifically children victims and incest? I’m a cradle SBCer and I still attend and am active in an SBC church. So my comments come from a place of love and genuineness. I love and appreciate my church heritage and want to see my brothers and sisters in Christ succeed in evangelizing the world. I’ve seen a lot of comments and opinions from pastors on this topic in the… Read more »
Just a side note…sometimes an expression of that much anger indicates the suppression of their own sexual abuse as a child. Just an observation from years of advocacy…
The key point is that one need not have a soft view of the horrors of pedophilia or child abuse to also say that we ought to minister to sinners who have committed the most heinous of sins.
if we say that there are sinners beyond the reach of God’s grace or beyond the fellowship of the Body of Christ, we have said something horrific.
Right. That. Exactly that.
“I wish someone would answer the question I asked a couple of times relative to the sex abuser who has been saved and changed: “What do you mean by change?” In a small enclave near where I live is a pedophile who served his time but is on the national register. He lives near a neighborhood park with swimming pool, tennis courts, and playground. He is not allowed near them because he was walking there and watching the kids play. Parents were outraged and it was made official he was not allowed near it. Had he known all he had… Read more »
Lydia, please stop being absurd. No one is talking about giving unfettered access to children to a pedophile just because he says “I repent.”
Everyone on here that has advocated grace has done so reasonably – and so your absurdities are unfair.
A truly redeemed and repentant sinner does want and need one thing – fellowship with the Body of Christ. That is a necessary and important part of sanctification.
Dave,
Of course I am absurb to you all.
Lydia
I did not say YOU were absurd. I said you were being absurd – taking our words in their most absurd manner.
You did it again.
http://cryingoutforjustice.com/2015/05/29/do-not-pity-the-wicked-abusers-use-pity-as-a-snare/ Jeff Crippen. You have no idea if you are being conned by a repentent sexual predator or not. Their lives have been one of total deception. I think it is better to err on the side of grace for the most vulnerable and innocent of our society. You have no idea if they will start grooming again since the “temptations” are all around them at church. Children see them as any accepted adult at church over a long period then see them at the park. Get educated on how it works. There are men only groups for those who… Read more »
Should we announce the names of all men who have affairs with coworkers are someone under their employee and announce to the church their name their family members names – and then just tell everyone to look out because he just might try to take your wife too?
How about a person who embezzles – should we announce to the church his name and all of his family members names so that people can be aware and watch their wallets when he’s around? My point is where does the shaming end? Surely, we’re not going to let an unrepentant adulterer teach a marriage enrichment class – surely we are not going to let a thief the air church treasurer – or Usher – or offering counter – Just as we would not let and unrepentant sex crime offender around those whom he/she has demonstrated a proclivity to abuse… Read more »
Should we create special classes for all sinners by category of sin – and keep them in groups?
Lydia, you ask a perceptive question of “What do you mean by change?”, yet I wonder what answer will satisfy you. You give the example of the local pedophile watching neighborhood children as a testament of horror. Parents were outraged and action was taken against him. Possibly that was a needed requirement and a fantastic solution for all. But what was in his heart and mind when he viewed those children? Was it continuing lust? Or could it have been pangs of remorse for the actions he committed against other children. A means of constant self-punishment and condemnation. We don’t… Read more »
If we were truly convinced that we should bar all people from the doors who might one day hurt another believer, or make them feel less about themselves, then every pew would stand empty.
Not at all. Just thinking of children who cannot protect themselves or stand up for themselves. It is especially bad when the leaders do not understand the grooming process.
I understand the grooming process – and that’s why I would not support – and again I don’t think anyone else here has supported – any interaction whatsoever under the auspices of the church by sex offenders among those with whom they have demonstrated a proclivity to abuse.
The fact they are at church lends credibility to them as a trustworthy adult to a child. They have no filters for such things. That same child would see that person in public and think of them as safe.
And we all know that as time marches on people become somewhat lax because they think all is well. They do not understand the grooming process. None are as patient as child predators. It is part of their thrill.
There are deviants out there that prey on children… no doubt about it. However, even among sex offenders they are a minority. You are painting all former offenders with the same brush. Further, you have bought into the misinformation that they will likely re-offend. Statistically, you are proven wrong. But the grossest part of your position is that you want to make the church the babysitter and eliminate the parent as having any responsibility over their charges. The church should forbid entry to these “sinners” because their sin is more than yours. Are you really that much of a hypocrite?… Read more »
Great article Bart. Some more thoughts about the Duggar case . . .
https://changeworthmaking.wordpress.com/2015/05/28/dealing-with-the-duggers-how-to-respond-to-josh-and-his-repentance/
This horse is dead…however:
Few women seem to comment on male-dominated blogs populated by SBC folks but when they do on this subject it looks to me like there is a difference in perspective and approach. This is consistent here and in other places.
I said I would trust two people here, Barber and Miller, as pastor to protect my grandchildren from abusers because they show a grasp of the issues involved. I may do a couple of things differently than they do.
It’s refreshing to see the subject of sex offenders discussed in a mostly rational light. It’s unfortunate that this subject is often so laden with emotion and fear that even when clarifications are made multiple times that not all sex offenders are pedophiles, and not all sex offenders molest or have molested children, it’s nearly impossible for the discussion to not turn into “sex offender = pedophile” (Incidentally, there are many pedophiles who are aware of their condition and never molest children. And there are pedophiles, also, who have, and who, through cognitive therapy intervention never do so again.) There’s… Read more »
I have read most of your comments after reading the article. I was saved in a Baptist church at the age of 11 as a result of being invited by an awesome Christian neighbor. My Mom had left and it was my Dad and I and this lady probably felt a certain amount of pity. That was 55 years ago. I was very active in church and brought my two boys up to be fine Christian men. One son was in the military when someone saw child pornography on his laptop. The gunny seargent called him and asked about it.… Read more »
I appreciate the comment. I think both Bart barber and I have expressed concern about the broad sweep of laws that require registry for a broad range of offenses.
Tarheel asked a good question about making public in church attendees who are adulterers or embezzlers, etc.
I have never sought to inform the congregation of specific attendees who have criminal convictions. Adulterers don’t get prosecuted but church folks generally know who they are.
But I’d ask tarheel to answer this question: You are a church staff member. A convicted pedophile begins attending your church. You are aware of this individual but no one else. You call him in and place restrictions on his activity while on church property. Who else do you inform in the congregation?
Our church policy would not allow him to work with children – anyone under the age of 18 – whether this is discovered just somehow “only buy me” or is discovered as a result of the background checks that we perform on all volunteers who work with children – all ministry leaders would be informed that this individual is prohibited from working in anyway with children – perform on all volunteers who work with children – all ministry leaders would be informed that this individual is prohibited from working in anyway with children – other pastoral staff will also be… Read more »
Wow – i’m not sure for the reason of the double posting of so much that I just posted – I am using the speak feature of my iPhone – I’m going to try that again. Our church policy would not allow him to work with children – anyone under the age of 18 – whether this is discovered just somehow “only by me” or is discovered as a result of the background checks that we perform on all volunteers who work with children – all ministry leaders would be informed that this individual is prohibited from working in any… Read more »
I like that your church has extensive child safety policies.
But in the case of a pedophile, you do not think parents should be informed that such an individual will be attending services under your child protection policies? The church decision makers feel that it is sufficient that staff and leadership know the identity but unnecessary and/or harmful to the individual for the church to be informed?
I don’t wish to put words in your mouth…so how would you explain the case to a parent?
I don’t think it is unprofitable to explore these hypotheticals.
We hope to, by our policies and diligence, provide parents with a reasonable degree of confidence that we are doing all we can to provide a safe environment for thier children.
We do not customarily announce people’s sins to the church body. I’m sure there could likely be an hypothetical exception to that though.
It seems to me, Tarheel, that it would be irresponsible in a church of, say, 500 in average attendance NOT to inform the church of the regular presence of a repentant pedophile (and we’re talking of only a portion of convicted child abusers, pedophiles). Seems to me that if such a person approached a staff member and wanted some pre-approval or some agreed supervision that keeping the matter hidden from the church would not be wise. I don’t customarily announce sins but would inform the individual that his record would be made known. You might reconsider your use of vocabulary… Read more »
William,
I never said We would hide anything – I just didn’t answer your hypothetical.
Also, I did previously say that convicted child abusers are automatically disqualified from interaction with children – we don’t do any “supervised” interaction.
Maybe Boz will have some credibility here:
http://boz.religionnews.com/2015/05/15/a-grand-deception-the-successful-response-of-sex-offenders/?utm_content=buffer1732c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
I clicked from Boz’s site to the RFT article. I live in the STL area and don’t even remember reading about this. Actually a paragraph in the RFT article makes not of the lack of local press coverage. What a sad, sad episode. Lots of mistakes were made in that case for sure. As to what to do, the actual practicality of how it works out if a known former convicted pedophile start attending your church would vary by congregation…that is, to whom and how it is made known, the fact is that the person should ever be nowhere near… Read more »
“Should we announce the names of all men who have affairs with coworkers are someone under their employee and announce to the church their name their family members names – and then just tell everyone to look out because he just might try to take your wife too?”
No. Those are ADULTS. I am speaking strictly of sexual predators of children who are the most vulnerable and innocent of our society and only have adults to protect them.
So sexual crimes against adults are not “reportable”? Those are victims too. Shouldn’t people be warned??
Rapist of adults?
Business owner who sexually harrasses an employee under condition of employment? – shouldn’t we warn all husbands and wives that the dude is a potential threat to thier marriage?
I am specifically focusing on children who are the most vulnerable and innocent of our society and not able to report for themselves at all. Sorry if that was not clear.
It might help to really educate yourself on what goes into child porn so that you won’t blow off viewing it as somewhat benign. Children are tortured, raped, kidnapped, drugged and so on. It is a felony and considered predator behavior.
Um….I never said anything about child porn being benign – no porn is benign!
Please, stop assuming and then attacking the assumption. Thank you.
“Um….I never said anything about child porn being benign – no porn is benign! ”
But children have no choice. That is the difference we have to keep in mind.
Again. I agree with you regarding the sinfulness, and vileness of child porn! Where are you getting that I,or anyone else posting here, need to be lectured on that?!?!?!
I will Say that perhaps it is you who needs to be better informed on the dangers in the victimization of pornography in general because often adults are kidnapped and forced into it as well it’s not just children that often do not have a choice when it comes to the “sex slave” / porn market. Again. I despise ALL porn.
Lydia, just to be clear…if a registered sex offender for multiple/repeat crimes agains minors were to approach you privately about attending a church that you (hypothetically) pastor, would you welcome them, post it in the bulletin, ask the sinner to publicly acknowledge it at the next meeting or would you tell him to try the next church. Add he also “appears” sincerely broken about his past sin.
Adam, I think it would have to be announced to the church family. It is really only fair to children and parents. We cannot be more concerned about the “repentent” child predator. They have already lived a long con of deception and it can take many years before we have any idea there is real fruit of repentence. And I would hope a truly repentent child sex offender would understand that need. This is how one church handles it that I read about. I cannot remember the guys name right now but he is one of the co authors of… Read more »
One of the ways we combat this issue is by not having children’s age specific programs in our church on a regular basis… our kids sit with us in church and Sunday School, and when we do actually do children specifica activity it’s all together, with family participation. In fact, I cannot think of a time when our kids are ever alone with another adult besides their own parents.
Joel, that’s definitely an effective form of ministry and I’m glad that contextualization helps you be successful in fulfilling the great commission.
From age 3 and up, I sat on the front row while my mom played piano or organ. One eyebrow lifted from her was all I needed to know that I was squirming too much or making too much noise.
There was no such thing as fun kids church. :o)
This discussion reminds me of the old saw about the blind men examining the elephant. One grabs the tail and describes it as a snake. One grabs the leg and describes it as a tree, etc. Each takes a different piece and assumes that piece is the whole. Christian truth is always multi-faceted. Should a church seek to protect its children? Absolutely. Must a church minister to and accept the worst of sinners who turn to Christ (including those who have done despicable things to the weak and helpless)? Yes, it must. The Church that treats anyone as beyond the… Read more »
Let’s stop the merry-go-round.
Unless there’s something new to say, let’s stop saying the same things over and over.
“Unless there’s something new to say, let’s stop saying the same things over and over.”
Typical Dave. (wink)
I read the comment stream and the frankly I was saying NEW stuff that is uncomfortable to you. Christian Academy stopped renting facilities to SGM Louisville when the scandal became public because they MUST have the appearance of 100% protection of children. Zero Tolerance and 100% protection.
It is only fair to announce to the church a sexual predator who claims repentance is attending.
The only stuff you said that was uncomfortable to me was the stuff where you twisted what I said or someone else said into a convoluted and perverted version of what we actually said. I don’t think there is a person here who is uncomfortable with the concept of protecting children or the need to do so. (I’m not sure about a couple of those folks that logged in from organizations that are against registries – don’t know them or their agendas.) I believe that every one of us here (so far, at least) believes 100% that a church ought… Read more »
That’s right.
Both/and not either/or
Wow! Thank you so much for this. You have no idea how heartening it is to hear your perspective. I am the wife of a registered sex offender. There are more of us than you may think. The reality is that most registered sex offender are NOT child molesters or pedophiles: crimes against children 13 and under, forcible offenses against people of any age, and committing more than one offense of any type are things that only apply to a small minority of those in the registry. The vast majority of registered sex offenders are on the list for a… Read more »
Just to clarify, lest I’m misunderstood, I did not mean to imply that my husband would be uniquely tempted by teen girls. He would not be. But, I can’t guarantee for him or any man that they would be more resistant to the advances of a 16 year old than to those of a 26 or 36 year old. However, there is a big difference between a man who is gives into temptation and has sexual contact with a willing post-pubescent teen (or an adult woman) and a man who would force sex on an unwilling child, teen, or adult.… Read more »