When I was first considering becoming a pastor, I remember many wise men counseling me to “make sure you are called” and “if you can do anything else and be satisfied, do it.” After 20 years of ministry, now I know why. Wherever these thoughts come from, they are real, and from time to time make me want to just pack up everything and quit and just go wait tables…
I’m not sure I have what it takes. Churches need leadership. This role is bigger than anything I’ve done before and maybe it’s too big for me. I see the growth and success in other churches and I’m not sure I have what it takes to see that kind of success here. This church needs a pastor who can lead them to make a kingdom impact. I don’t know if I can do it.
I fear failure. All my life I’ve been trying to prove to myself and to others that I am good enough. But what if I’m not? What if I fail in ministry and lead the church not to growth, but decline? What if I try to lead but no one follows? What if I lead, but I lead down the wrong path? I want to be successful in ministry, but I fear that I will fall on my face.
I don’t want to fall. People see the godliness in me, but much remains hidden. I am a sinner and I think sinful thoughts and do sinful things. I don’t want to fall, but I know my flesh is weak. If I fall as a leader, it could destroy me, destroy my family, destroy my ministry. I fear bringing reproach on the name of Christ.
I fear being found out. Maybe I won’t fall in a big way, but I’m still not what others think I am. Being in the ministry means people are examining my life more closely. What if people find out what really goes on in my heart? That I struggle with pride and lust and anger and insecurity and contentment?!? I want people to see me as a godly man. What if people find out I’m a sinner?
Ministry is draining. The demands are great. The need is never-ending. The stakes are high. The complaints are many. The unity is fragile. The conflicts are continuous. The pressure is intense. The workload is overwhelming. The ministry is physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually demanding. I don’t know if I can handle all of this for another 25 years.
Ministry is hard on my family. I want to be a good husband and a good dad. Ministry constantly pulls me away from family to the many needs of the church body. Having a pastor for a husband and a dad means their lives are lived in a fishbowl for all to see. At home, they often see me stressed, frustrated, or burdened. I want them to see a heart of joyful sacrifice, but sometimes I think I am asking/taking too much from them.
I feel so alone. I’m an extrovert, yet I spend many hours by myself. When I’m with people, I still feel alone. I have no one to really talk to, no one to confide in, no one to whom I can confess my secret sins. Lots of people think they know the pressures of ministry, but they really don’t. If I’m discouraged, I can’t tell anyone. The heaviest burdens I even keep from my spouse because they are too much for her to bear. I feel isolated.
I am prone to depression. I am not clinically depressed, mind you, but I have many melancholy days. Ministry can be disheartening. When my efforts in ministry seem to have no effect or people complain or someone leaves the church or it seems no one cares or I just have the Monday morning let down, I often get discouraged. Often that depression lingers. Further, I have seen several brothers in ministry end their own life or attempt to do so. That scares me.
Ministry is a heavy burden. The responsibility for the souls of others is a great weight. Few laymen can really understand – I’m not sure my wife even does. Pastoral ministry comes with a grave responsibility. I must preach the word, rightly divide it, boldly proclaim it, and humbly apply it. I am spiritually responsible as a shepherd of God’s flock. Eternity is in the balance and I am accountable. That’s a weight that seems too heavy to bear.
I want to be normal. I don’t want to live in a fishbowl. I don’t want to have to pray at every function, have advice for every situation, or have to be cheerful all the time. I want to be able to make mistakes, go to the movies, cut someone off in traffic, tell a joke, yell at my kids, eat at a restaurant, go on vacation, drive a nice car, wear a loud shirt or do any number of normal things without being judged, looked down on, or gossiped about. I want to be able to go out in public without everyone having a cow because I do something that supposedly a minister is not supposed to do. I want to be normal.
_______
I’m being honest here, but I don’t think I’m saying things that are unique to me. There are biblical answers to each of these and none have thus far kept me from pursuing the call of God on my life. But the concerns are real. Pastors need to stay vitally connected to the Lord and to other believers who will encourage them. Christians need to pray for their pastors.
What would you add to this list?
What advice or encouragement would you give to pastors experiencing any of these things?
Todd – My brother your number is legion. Silver and Gold have I none. What I have I will freely share with you. Give me a call or send me an email. I have been a pastor for 47 years and known all the issues you declare and then some. Looking forward to hearing from you.
Tom Fillinger
803 413 3509
IgniteUS Ministries
info@ingiteus.net
Sadly, one that could be added that was not true twenty years ago is ‘Be ready for people to not value what you do for a living’. People in the church and in the community used to believe the sacrifices a pastor made to be in the ministry were admirable. But now, very few outside of church seem to feel that way. And now some even in the church seem more skeptical than 20 years ago about a pastor’s motives for being in the ministry.
More and more true, though it was not wholly absent in years past.
‘Be ready for people to not value what you do for a living’
My son-in-law is a bi-vocational SBC pastor. A very controlling deacon body (yes, this happens even in congregational churches) has told him he is a mere “church employee” and subject to their wishes. Many of the strains on the pulpit wouldn’t exist if the pew wasn’t so cantankerous and nonspiritual! Some of the meanest people on the planet are church members.
Probably the hardest thing is pastoring a church where you can’t do your “job” without losing your “job” because the very people who need to be admonished the most are the ones who have assumed unilateral authority over you. I left a church as a member where that was the case. By the way, I suggest that this is a matter for a prospective pastor to discuss directly during the application process. I might not be as direct if I were younger, but I’d have to say that if I got this out of the pastoral search committee, I’d admonish… Read more »
“If the pastor isn’t allowed to actually pastor, then it is no longer an authentic church of Jesus Christ …”
AMEN!!
Todd, I too had heard about a view of ministry that is formed by that statement “make sure you are called” and “if you can do anything else and be satisfied, do it.” I know now, without any equivocation, that the statement itself is a false narrative. Paul’s encouragement, admonition and instruction to Timothy is diametrically opposed to the false narrative. The Holy Spirit knew that the church will have…not simply needs men to lead them, encourage them, help hold them together, fight for them, teach them, etc., etc. Pastoring the living church is hard, hard work, ….and important work… Read more »
I think the reason that advice is given is precisely because of the feelings, and others like them, that I have expressed here. Many young men going into ministry have a pollyannish view that is blind to the very real hardships that accompany the joys of ministry.
Todd, to that point, no doubt. Maybe the boys, young men, and older men, are not told the truth at the start. But, I don’t think it is biblical to begin with a false narrative. Take the last point…. “I want to be normal. I don’t want to live in a fishbowl. I don’t want to have to pray at every function, have advice for every situation, or have to be cheerful all the time. I want to be able to make mistakes, go to the movies, cut someone off in traffic, tell a joke, yell at my kids, eat… Read more »
But see, that goes back to some of the other points. If merely feeling a desire to be “normal” disqualifies someone for ministry, then that feeds the fear of being found out and the sense of feeling alone because there is no one with whom one can honestly share that feeling. And if the feelings expressed in the last paragraph make one not qualified to pastor, who on earth is qualified?!? Doesn’t every pastor feel a desire to not be on a pedestal or in a fishbowl from time to time? Or are you suggesting that a pastor having these… Read more »
Todd, no…you are missing my point. Feelings only come from what we think anyway. We, as leaders in the church, need to change the thinking about the phrase as well though. It’s simply a false narrative.
I’m all for helping the wounded, but that is the easy part. Being patient, empathetic, and caring to someone that is having a tough go at it…now that is normal. Yet, The harder work is starting out on the right course, and maintaining that rigor. Run, and finish the race.
I think this is a very real experience for many. One of the truest is about being alone. There is really no one a pastor can open up to with his feelings of doubt, discouragement, etc. And let’s face it, most pastors don’t seek out other pastors to help shepherd through tough times nor seek other pastors for some shepherding. One of the best things I did back when I was pastoring a church was to see out a very seasoned, 70 plus year old pastor to spend time with and talk to. He was a lifeline. Last, may I… Read more »
Les, you make some good points sir, and hit the nerve why men end up in a dead end street. Its because they don’t seek other like minded men. Pastors that struggle in this area have huge egos and love to do their own thing (in love and humility in their own minds, of course). But none the less, many fail because they were put into service by a eager group of folks to market and grow a ministry in their area of the world. That is a backwards way of ministry. Ministry must remain vigilant with qualified men leading.… Read more »
Not one of the things you list are true but then I’ve felt all of them at times, just not all at once and not to the degree that quitting looked better than staying. LifeWay and state conventions offer services to pastors who need counseling in this area. Anyone who asks for help will receive it.
It is a false narrative that pastors are quitting in droves. About one percent per year is the number of pastors who quit for reasons other than retirement or death.
http://www.lifeway.com/pastors/2015/09/01/research-finds-few-pastors-give-up-on-ministry/
Why in the world should someone not go to a restaurant? If a guy wants to go to either McDonalds, Wendy’s, In N Out Burger, Freddies, Jersey Mike’s, the Panda, Burger King or whatever I say let him go. At least here in OKC I’ve seen both church members as well as pastors and other church staff members going to these joints, so I don’t think there is a universal unwritten rule that says that pastors can only go to certain places. I don’t want to drop names but I’ve been to local joints with at least two State Execs… Read more »
“I want to be normal.” You know, fellows, I have thought about “normal” a great deal over the years and have come to the conclusion that “being normal” is highly overrated. I think maybe Paul came to that same conclusion. Paul wrote that he had learned to be content in whatever circumstances he was. He wrote that he had learned how to get along with humble means, and he had learned how to live in prosperity. He also stated that he had learned that in any and every circumstance he knew the secret of being filled and going hungry, both… Read more »
🙂
Yes. Normal is indeed overrated. Yet, the world has a draw that sometimes breaks through and the flesh wants to cooperate. When those feelings come, I need to press into God and, like Paul, learn to “count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.”
(Can I at least keep my convertible and my Hawaii vacation though?)
Sure, why can you not keep your dream car and vacation thoughts? And hey, God may well give you both. Your only obligation if He does is to obey Him in all things and remember that they are gifts and will one day go the way of the dodo bird and be gone. “Cause everything in this life is going to go except that which is of Christ. Todd, you are a highly intelligent guy. You are extremely well educated and you obviously have common sense as is illustrated by things you write here and things you put on twitter.… Read more »
Thanks, CB … and no worries. 🙂 I don’t have these thoughts all at once nor are they overwhelming. On the ministry front, a door is opening for me right now and I am seeking God’s direction on whether to step through it. If I’m called, it will be a greater responsibility than I have taken on before and I am feeling the weight of what it will mean to say “yes” to God. These are some of the thoughts I’ve considered as I prepare to step into this new role (if indeed I am asked to do so). My… Read more »
… and, btw, knowing some of the things you’ve been through in serving Him, your words carry much weight with me.
Yes, keep your convertible by all means. I don’t have a convertible but I do take the top off of my Corvette coupe during those rare days when the weather is nice.
Also, basking in the shadow of Diamond Head sounds OK to me. I know at least one prominent leader in the SBC that goes over there for a few weeks each winter.
Roger
CB,
I’ve never thought of you as normal.
🙂
David
😉
That’s about the most intelligent thing Worley has ever said.
Never read the book, but my favorite book title is, “Normal is just a setting on your Dryer.”
To be “normal” is essentially to be conformed to the image of the people around us. It’s to take what the typical person around us does and use that as the standard to which we compare ourselves. Seems to me that God is already working on conforming us to a quite different image (Rom 8:29), and has a different standard to which we should compare ourselves (Jesus).
Todd,
You nailed it, with this post, Brother. Excellent insight.
David
Thanks, David.
Thank you for a great post. I’ve felt the same on many occasions and at times thought they were unique to my ministry situation. A good thing is to keep asking the Lord for wisdom, balance in time and priorities and even to keep asking his will for one’s ministry at a particular location is still the way to go. At times the ministry does seem glamorous but in reality all the questions and struggles you wrote down will come in our lives and the new or younger pastor needs to be ready to deal with them.
I’m not a pastor. I am a 63 year old elder in a small SB church in California. I remember a blog post written by Dave a few years ago about how alone he was in ministry. Or perhaps “isolated” is the better term. I remember being genuinely perplexed, not wanting to believe this was prevalent. Todd addresses this same issue as follows: “I feel so alone. I’m an extrovert, yet I spend many hours by myself. When I’m with people, I still feel alone. I have no one to really talk to, no one to confide in, no one… Read more »
Nathan Petty, I would like to hug your neck!! Well said. My comments were really targeted at the well worn adage that is sometimes worn more as a badge, than a warning. The adage is simply misleading on many fronts. I certainly realize the difficulty of doing any job well! Work is work.
But as you have stated,…Pastors need those relationships, should not be isolated, should have men like you …. thank you sir for your comment and service. Your wisdom is what needs to be gleaned from those precious Pauline letters and men aspiring to lead in the church.
“Work is work.”
Chris, you are just wrong on that. There are many aspects of pastoral ministry, including both the spiritual responsibility and spiritual warfare, that are just not found in any other calling.
Todd, I should clarify,… it is a fine work! Spiritual warfare is found in a lot of places for all believers. But, I do hear your message. Thanks for letting me clarify. I am not at all discounting the work involved with Pastoring,…none, whatsoever.
These discussions among pastors are ubiquitous and sometimes self-defeating. Thank God for a layman who offers a different perspective. I make no judgment about Todd (or Dave whose earlier post is referenced in the comment above) but if there are markers for depression among pastors they surely include feelings of worthlessness, despair, loneliness, fatigue, and hopelessness. For God’s sake, your church’s sake, your family’s sake and your own sake…get to a doctor, a counselor and get on the road to thinking soberly. No. The task of a pastor is not uniquely intense and arduous relative to other occupations. Could difficulties… Read more »
For background information, almost all my church experience has been in churches with less than 200 members and I am currently in my 8th year serving in the same place. Even people with close friendships often feel alone. I’m having a hard time understanding how now two pastors are saying that pastoral ministry is no different than any other job. If we’re just talking about the tasks themselves, then of course you are right. But what I’m referring to is the spiritual warfare, spiritual responsibility — the spending and being spent for souls. The only way this could just be… Read more »
Yes, there are some aspects of ministry that I believe cannot be explained, only experienced. As for the close friendships, I find that few men in our culture find the kinds of true friendships that I and others long for, no matter what their vocation.
The trouble for pastors is that the kind of close friendships needed to cure the loneliness problem requires a very high level of trust, vulnerability, and transparency. And that means a high level of risk.
Todd, you are right. Trust, vulnerability and transparency attends with high levels of risk, whether you’re a pastor or an accountant like me. And I agree that there are challenging aspects of pastoral ministry which are unique, along with (I hope and trust) special blessing. Eternity is vastly significant compared to whether or I not I get a tax return right. I truly hurt when I read what you wrote: “Churches need leadership” “All my life I’ve been trying to prove to myself and to others that I am good enough.” “If I fall as a leader, it could destroy… Read more »
Thanks. Actually my situation is a little different. I am not looking for an exit, I’m contemplating an entrance. A year ago, I helped our church reunify with a church we had split from 11 years before. In order to make the merge work, I went from being the senior pastor of the split to being an associate pastor of the newly merged/reunified congregation. Today, I am in the position where I may be asked to step back into the senior pastor role. My post today reflects some past feelings and experience and anticipation of moving back into that role.… Read more »
I will take this opportunity to be more sensitive and proactive about these problems. Your willingness to share is appreciated.
The greatest thing you can do is to pray for and with your pastor. All pastors need encouragement — I have yet to meet an exception to that rule.
Here’s an old post to help with that:
https://sbcvoices.com/how-to-pray-for-your-pastor/
Todd, that helps me understand a little more of why you penned the post in the manner you did. So, thanks for the clarification. I’ll be praying that God gives you wisdom to be content in the choice that you make brother! “The only way this could just be like any other job for me is if I did not care whether the people I shepherd had any relationship with God or not.” I see from the statement you recorded earlier…why you may feel the way you feel. I would just say and encourage you to try and view it… Read more »
And, yes, overall the special blessings of ministry cause the special challenges to pale in comparison. 🙂
I, for one, don’t expect or need my pastor to be a leader if it entails all of these demands. I certainly don’t have expectations of perfection. I’ve been in churches in opposite ends of this. One church ultimately fired me b/c I wasn’t “perfect.” I was the one who had to clean the toilets and mow the lawn, and when I suggested a rotation list of able bodied men, I was informed, “They’re too busy with their own yards, they don’t have time to help with this one.” The last church meeting I had with them, I tried to… Read more »
About 25 years ago, I worked through “Experiencing God” by Henry Blackaby for the first time. After that, my role as pastor became much more focused and simple. So, I began asking God to show me where He was at work. He did. Now, after 31 years, I know one thing for certain. All of the stresses and weaknesses and anxiety I had are rolled up inside the weekly exposition of Scripture I take on every week. I have very few moments of lasting anxiety anymore, because God’s Word delivers to such a degree that He has completely filled in… Read more »
That’s a good word. Thanks, Tracy.
“I worked through “Experiencing God” by Henry Blackaby for the first time. After that, my role as pastor became much more focused and simple. So, I began asking God to show me where He was at work.” Brother Blackaby’s challenge to the church to look for where God is working and join Him there continues to be good counsel. Many in ministry – both pulpit and pew – beat themselves to a ragged edge keeping up with activities and programs … while missing where He is really at work. When you seek His face to find that place, ministry flows… Read more »
Some of these are actually good to have in some measure. For example, if you don’t feel the burden of ministry to some degree I doubt your seriousness. Or, if you can’t just be a “normal” pastor, but have to be an extraordinary pastor or bust, then I would say that’s a good thing. But in general I think this is a pretty good list. I would add one: if you are pursuing the pastorate and you would be upset if you discovered at some point that you weren’t “called”, then you shouldn’t be a pastor. It represents a fundamental… Read more »
Hi Todd, This is a problem that stems from one thing, and that is God’s household is meant to be led and headed by one man, and that is Christ Jesus. God has showed us that this is done by God working to through qualified Overseers/Elders. These men should demonstrated the Spiritual Gifts to Teach and Pastor the flock. There is no such thing as a Senior Pastor in Scriptures, there is only a Chief Shepherd and that is Christ Jesus. Many of your problems you state come from a lack of obedience to Scripture. Furthermore, you must consider if… Read more »
Not to get sidetracked to a discussion about the plurality of elders, but a few observations before bridging the context from the NT era to today. (1) The multiple elders we see in the NT was in the context of the city church that met in multiple locations, not an autonomous church of 70-120 with its own budget and building; (2) While the title of “senior” may not be in the text, we certainly see the idea of a lead elder among the elders and most elder models today reflect this; (3) Most SBC churches, still function on the single… Read more »
Hi Todd, First I would like to say it is not my intent to judge if you are called or qualified based on your post. I appreciate someone posting honesty on the feelings of Pastoring. I know that we are human and we grieve and suffer with our own sin and the sin of others; especially when you are called to care, and attend others. My only intent is to remind you of your calling and what God said of about being called; which always brings me joy in the midst of grief. A Christian without suffering, cannot find bliss… Read more »
Todd is too kind to say it but this kind of advice is particularly unhelpful and should be ignored. It is better viewed as a drive-by blame-the-victim lecture from a self-absorbed expert. Thanks a bunch anyway.
Come on William…. You are telling Robert that there is no correlation to why Pastors may feel lonely, doubt effectiveness, failure, a sense of being in a bubble, etc. is not at all tied to how Pastors view themselves relative to the “non-Pastor” class. And that an unrealistic view of how a Pastor is the target, or king of hill is not at all tied to what he has learned from tradition and seminary on ecclesiology. Robert may have tried to sum up the problem very quickly, but he has certainly put the flashlight beam into the right corner of… Read more »
William, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater – I think the commentor has a point – this “I am an island because I am the senior pastor – therefore I can’t show “weakness” or I can’t share responsibility and accountability with other qualified men” mentality is pervasive in the southern Baptist convention we claim to reject hierarchy but that is exactly what we do in our autonomous churches. I think the point he’s making is that this hierarchy that we’ve created, at least in part, contributes to the feelings of isolation and depression that targets pastors – and… Read more »
Tarheel…. sounds like you have been around a while and have seen what is undeniably true. To your point, it is a sad situation that doesn’t have to exist, but it is a well worn path in churches. Some folks would rather ignore it, and keep moving down the “same” path as if moving even further away from the solution is the best option.
Most of the time its better to just turn around and head toward a solution; even as it gets ugly.
Some of the most divided, vicious, mean-spirited churches I’ve seen are “elder-led.” The idea the elder-led ecclesiology solves all our problems is little more that ecclesiological fantasy. God’s people walking in spiritual humility and in the fullness of the Spirit is far more important than structure. I’m not against elder leadership – if I were starting a church I’d use it. But the idea that it solves all problems is ridiculous. And for Robert to come on here and say it does, then to whine about being “sinned against” because people did not applaud his response is equally unbelievable. Look,… Read more »
Dave – “Some of the most divided, vicious, mean-spirited churches I’ve seen are “elder-led.” The idea the elder-led ecclesiology solves all our problems is little more that ecclesiological fantasy.” I am sorry Dave I must have missed in Scriptures were God said we should act and follow your advice based on your life experience. I believe the word of God is sufficient, just as the Apostles. I never once said Wolves would not be in the Church. However, we are to hold to the teaching of Christ. Dave – “God’s people walking in spiritual humility and in the fullness of… Read more »
To be clear – I am not suggesting that any form of church structure solves all problems – in fact I’m not aware of anyone who has said that –
I do believe though that there is some merit in discussion of a possible contributing factor to the depression and the issues that you speak of being the “go it alone mentality” that The common hierarchy in Southern Baptist churches fosters.
Dave, I respect your views. You have earned it.
Robert’s is a classic, simplistic blame the victim couched in religio-talk and when he says he’s not trying to change the topic, of course that is exactly what that was about. He did a good job providing the template for such an approach.
I guess that could be gleaned out of his comments as well, but he did form some thoughts around the institution, not only the individual. There is some merit there. Maybe he will address why depression and other feelings follow a sense of being trapped in a tough ministry position.
Gentlemen, I confess that it is my opinion, but I tend to agree with William Thornton here. Robert Brooks has made statements in the absolute about the concept of the church and its NT structural nature as if his is the only credible position. Guys, “It just ain’t so.” Robert Brooks comes up short here. The concept of the “local church” in the NT is not so easily defined. There are references to singular house churches in Paul’s writings. There are references in NT writings using the singular “church” to designate several churches in a region. In Acts 9:31 “the… Read more »
I agree. The beauty of the teachings of the Apostles regarding church government is that what they taught clearly is true for all churches, but what they didn’t teach clearly seems to be optimal for adapting to the needs of churches is different situations.
CB offers astute commentary.
CB Scott – “The concept of the “local church” in the NT is not so easily defined”. Here is the beginning of what I call the Defense Lawyer argument. I use to try to defend the position, until I realize that I was Sinning against God. I was telling people that God’s word is not sufficient. Proverbs 30:5-6 NIV ““Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.” Here is explicitly Paul defining the Church in… Read more »
William Thornton, I appreciate your comments, because it shows an argument from the human nature that dwells within you and obviously out of you; let me clarify even more, you are depending on your own knowledge of what is good and evil which has manifested in you sinning against me in the form of slander. Now I read my comments to make sure my flesh did not take over and give you reason, but I believe God’s word prevailed. My primary point to Todd is that the culture adapted Church Structure of Hierarchy causes these issues. And Yes, the solution… Read more »
Bye, bye, Robert. I recognize a hobby horse when I see one…giddy-up.
That’s rather rude.
So, Robert Brooks,
I take it that you have not made the study of biblical languages your strong suit, but rather have perfected the art of eisegesis instead. Having now read your work here, I commend you. You have excelled in your chosen discipline.
CB-Scott -“I take it that you have not made the study of biblical languages your strong suit, but rather have perfected the art of eisegesis instead. Having now read your work here, I commend you. You have excelled in your chosen discipline” It never fails to amaze me how people who claim God, hearts can be so far from God. However, you are a Hebrew and a Greek scholar now; and we must be on your caliber to understand the God’s Word. History just repeats itself with the Church or people in the Church claiming, with this elitism attitude, that… Read more »
Robert Brooks, That’s an old game. Now, you are trying to flip this thing and make someone else guilty of that of you are the guilty party. It was you who made judgmental comments here, not I. It was you who set yourself up here as one of great wisdom and with final authority about the failure of the brothers due to their adherence to a “faulty ecclesiology.” It was you who superimposed your position upon the Scriptures as an absolute beyond question or debate. I, and a couple of other guys, simply called your hand and, as is the… Read more »
Robert, unfortunately you won’t get a whole lot of traction on the subject you mentioned, but I agree with you in light of an important topic raised in this thread already. Having multiple qualified men leading the church is a huge blessing to the church, a extremely important blessing to the men in ministry together, an obedient step forward for any church that reads the NT, and what the Holy Spirit has echoed as a significant working,..because rightly dividing the Word is the key to distributing the gospel of God. The Holy Spirit certainly has instructed the church to follow… Read more »
Well, I was hoping this would not go down the same ole preverbal rathole….my hopes have been dashed 🙂 The Apostle Paul will continue to echo those wonderful words written to Timothy and his fellow elders about the remedy and some good things relative to the health of the church as they were about the business of aspiring to lead, preach, teach, and encourage one another and the church (certainly applicable to all churches). I would imagine ….that even those guys working together with Timothy were discouraged, struggle, got angry, felt inadequate..I’m pretty much sure of it. Yet, they were… Read more »
So, trying to put this in the context of what Todd has written here. One person summarized what I think Robert may be trying to say (not speaking for Robert, it appears he is willing to make that attempt). “The biblical question is not; Are all elders pastors?, but instead; Are all elders to pastor? ‘Pastor’ is not an office in the Bible, or in the church, but a gift (a noun) and a charge (a verb). It is a gift that some in the church have and hopefully those who serve in the office of overseer have this gift.… Read more »
Chris Johnson, I think the comment stream took at least two turns. One dealing with the actual content of the post and the other on ecclesiology. I think many pastors and prospective pastors have traveled in the same shoes that Todd is now trying on for size. I believe I can make a good argument that the last letter Paul wrote, 2 Timothy, was to deal with the very things Todd related in the life of Timothy. What Robert Brooks brought into the mix was his theory that “all”of Todd’s concerns have to do with his adherence to a poor… Read more »
cb… wise words. And Jim did put a good bow on it. My attempt to rescue Robert a bit was that his angle has some credence and support for helping young guys (and stubborn older guys) recognize the wisdom and encouragement of other men qualified to lead… and even in the place where that young man serves. Its great to have one strong and humble teacher, but even better to have more (one might get sick, or need to be out one week or a group of weeks). More men should “lift holy hands” to our Lord. Believe me, being… Read more »
Chris Johnson, You stated: “Those singular Pastor models have wreaked havoc on a lot of great preachers and teachers, and have spun men down the paths that Todd has written about in this article, many, many times over.” Chris, that is true. However, is it not just as true that inherent in every pastoral model common to Christendom since Christ founded the Church, men, many of whom were/are great preachers and teachers have had havoc wrecked in their lives? Chris, it seems to me that no matter the pastoral model a church incorporates, there is always the possibility of burn-out… Read more »
cb, yes, all those things you have stated are true. And the reason that from biblical encouragement throughout the forming of the churches we see the foundation that a plurality of men is the norm. Now, it is not always required, but there is evidence of why the council of more than one is wise and healthy for the entire and growing church. The Pastor should recognize that benefit as a blessing, because it is. Just having a bunch of guys for the sake of having a bunch of guys is definitely not a blessing. So, it is the model… Read more »
” Just having a bunch of guys for the sake of having a bunch of guys is definitely not a blessing.”
Chris Johnson, you will get no argument from me on that. Twelve guys went to recon the Promised Land, but only two of the twelve had the stuff it takes to enter and eat the grapes.
Give me the two grape eaters any day rather than ten who see themselves as grasshoppers.
The line rewritten from the classic Kung Fu western comes to mind: “Grasshopper, you may enter this land when you can remove the grape from my hand.”
I would agree, CB
But I’d add…give me the 2 grape eaters over those who see themselves as the giants …. 😉
cb,…yes sir. Two is a tremendous start. Along with Paul’s encouragement that all men should raise holy hands, and any man that aspires to the office is terrific (as qualified) in the church, because as the word is rightly divided in the church….she matures, and she wreaks less havoc on those young Pastors, ….and old alike. Ordaining Elders in the church is not a light hearted effort, because they really do some amazing stuff. “Elders who provide effective leadership must be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. For the scripture says, “Do… Read more »
Chris Johnson, I do share your desire (dream, hope, goal, aspiration, or whatever one may call it). Yet, I do realize that in this flesh, all who ask of the mantle of leadership in a local church, based upon their persuasion that God desires such leadership of them, will suffer hardship. I believe the Scriptures teach such shall the case. Now, as to the local church and a pastoral model, I want to state my position with you. I contend the NT teaches a congregational method of governance. I have worked within that model for many years. I know its… Read more »
Unfortunately, this sidestep into ecclesiology is a massive misdiagnoses by men who have no clue about me or my church or whether or not I have qualified men leading with me (I do). All of the feelings and thoughts shared in my post really have nothing to do with any lack of health in my church or its leadership structure. I’ve been given “advice” and rebuke by men who know nothing of me or my situation, let alone my church’s ecclesiology, and have not done the important first step in counseling a brother. “He who gives an answer before he… Read more »
“Chris Johnson, nor can anyone else, prove to a credible absolute that the multiple elder method of pastoral leadership is the only NT model.” cb, I have not tried to prove such…because it is not necessary. As you have well said, God builds His church. He wrote what he wrote. I guess I am just a little surprised of how folks get all twisted around the axle when it is pretty obvious that having more men to provide encouragement seems like a pretty good thing. My intention was not to get rolling down the street of ecclesiological musings. I’ll simply… Read more »
Chris Johnson,
Nor was it my intent “to get rolling down the street of ecclesiological musings.”
I took Robert Brooks to task for making an absurd accusation than an ecclesiastical leadership position was/is the root cause of a brother’s anguish.
My use of your name in my statement was for illustration and nothing more.
I would ride the river most anywhere with you, Chris. I think you to be a solid guy and a man of true faith. I trust there is peace between us.
oh yes cb, we are in lock step. No problem here my friend. I am looking forward to that “ride the river” as well,….or maybe catching a Bama game with you sometime 🙂
And a big ROLL TIDE! to you, my brother. 😉
I am afraid that Robert is not going to be part of our conversation here much anymore.
We have conversations here, not dictates from on high.
we cannot speak in absolute terms about the structure of local churches in the NT. It seems to me that we’re given a lot more detail about the character and attitudes that ought to characterize leadership (and membership, for that matter) in the church than about authority structure. I can’t see that as an accident. While Jesus isn’t silent about structure (including, almost scarily, Mat 23:1-3, which commands obedience to those who have ‘seated themselves’ in a position of authority, while also commanding the refusal to take their example as authoritative(I have trouble seeing the scribes and Pharisees taking the… Read more »
“A church where the structure is right, but those in authority don’t exercise their authority in the servant-like, humble attitude commanded by scripture is going to be much more of a train wreck than one where the structure is off, but those who are in authority *do* exemplify those attitudes.”
Ben Coleman,
I think you make a most excellent observation.
Yes, that is implied in the aspiring. Structure is not the savior or balm. Men aspiring and like minded according to the scripture is a powerful encouragement within the congregation.