When I was first considering becoming a pastor, I remember many wise men counseling me to “make sure you are called” and “if you can do anything else and be satisfied, do it.” After 20 years of ministry, now I know why. Wherever these thoughts come from, they are real, and from time to time make me want to just pack up everything and quit and just go wait tables…
I’m not sure I have what it takes. Churches need leadership. This role is bigger than anything I’ve done before and maybe it’s too big for me. I see the growth and success in other churches and I’m not sure I have what it takes to see that kind of success here. This church needs a pastor who can lead them to make a kingdom impact. I don’t know if I can do it.
I fear failure. All my life I’ve been trying to prove to myself and to others that I am good enough. But what if I’m not? What if I fail in ministry and lead the church not to growth, but decline? What if I try to lead but no one follows? What if I lead, but I lead down the wrong path? I want to be successful in ministry, but I fear that I will fall on my face.
I don’t want to fall. People see the godliness in me, but much remains hidden. I am a sinner and I think sinful thoughts and do sinful things. I don’t want to fall, but I know my flesh is weak. If I fall as a leader, it could destroy me, destroy my family, destroy my ministry. I fear bringing reproach on the name of Christ.
I fear being found out. Maybe I won’t fall in a big way, but I’m still not what others think I am. Being in the ministry means people are examining my life more closely. What if people find out what really goes on in my heart? That I struggle with pride and lust and anger and insecurity and contentment?!? I want people to see me as a godly man. What if people find out I’m a sinner?
Ministry is draining. The demands are great. The need is never-ending. The stakes are high. The complaints are many. The unity is fragile. The conflicts are continuous. The pressure is intense. The workload is overwhelming. The ministry is physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually demanding. I don’t know if I can handle all of this for another 25 years.
Ministry is hard on my family. I want to be a good husband and a good dad. Ministry constantly pulls me away from family to the many needs of the church body. Having a pastor for a husband and a dad means their lives are lived in a fishbowl for all to see. At home, they often see me stressed, frustrated, or burdened. I want them to see a heart of joyful sacrifice, but sometimes I think I am asking/taking too much from them.
I feel so alone. I’m an extrovert, yet I spend many hours by myself. When I’m with people, I still feel alone. I have no one to really talk to, no one to confide in, no one to whom I can confess my secret sins. Lots of people think they know the pressures of ministry, but they really don’t. If I’m discouraged, I can’t tell anyone. The heaviest burdens I even keep from my spouse because they are too much for her to bear. I feel isolated.
I am prone to depression. I am not clinically depressed, mind you, but I have many melancholy days. Ministry can be disheartening. When my efforts in ministry seem to have no effect or people complain or someone leaves the church or it seems no one cares or I just have the Monday morning let down, I often get discouraged. Often that depression lingers. Further, I have seen several brothers in ministry end their own life or attempt to do so. That scares me.
Ministry is a heavy burden. The responsibility for the souls of others is a great weight. Few laymen can really understand – I’m not sure my wife even does. Pastoral ministry comes with a grave responsibility. I must preach the word, rightly divide it, boldly proclaim it, and humbly apply it. I am spiritually responsible as a shepherd of God’s flock. Eternity is in the balance and I am accountable. That’s a weight that seems too heavy to bear.
I want to be normal. I don’t want to live in a fishbowl. I don’t want to have to pray at every function, have advice for every situation, or have to be cheerful all the time. I want to be able to make mistakes, go to the movies, cut someone off in traffic, tell a joke, yell at my kids, eat at a restaurant, go on vacation, drive a nice car, wear a loud shirt or do any number of normal things without being judged, looked down on, or gossiped about. I want to be able to go out in public without everyone having a cow because I do something that supposedly a minister is not supposed to do. I want to be normal.
_______
I’m being honest here, but I don’t think I’m saying things that are unique to me. There are biblical answers to each of these and none have thus far kept me from pursuing the call of God on my life. But the concerns are real. Pastors need to stay vitally connected to the Lord and to other believers who will encourage them. Christians need to pray for their pastors.
What would you add to this list?
What advice or encouragement would you give to pastors experiencing any of these things?
Todd – My brother your number is legion. Silver and Gold have I none. What I have I will freely share with you. Give me a call or send me an email. I have been a pastor for 47 years and known all the issues you declare and then some. Looking forward to hearing from you.
Tom Fillinger
803 413 3509
IgniteUS Ministries
info@ingiteus.net
Sadly, one that could be added that was not true twenty years ago is ‘Be ready for people to not value what you do for a living’. People in the church and in the community used to believe the sacrifices a pastor made to be in the ministry were admirable. But now, very few outside of church seem to feel that way. And now some even in the church seem more skeptical than 20 years ago about a pastor’s motives for being in the ministry.
More and more true, though it was not wholly absent in years past.
‘Be ready for people to not value what you do for a living’
My son-in-law is a bi-vocational SBC pastor. A very controlling deacon body (yes, this happens even in congregational churches) has told him he is a mere “church employee” and subject to their wishes. Many of the strains on the pulpit wouldn’t exist if the pew wasn’t so cantankerous and nonspiritual! Some of the meanest people on the planet are church members.
Probably the hardest thing is pastoring a church where you can’t do your “job” without losing your “job” because the very people who need to be admonished the most are the ones who have assumed unilateral authority over you. I left a church as a member where that was the case.
By the way, I suggest that this is a matter for a prospective pastor to discuss directly during the application process. I might not be as direct if I were younger, but I’d have to say that if I got this out of the pastoral search committee, I’d admonish them strongly on the spot and tell them that if they didn’t repent then I wasn’t their man. If the pastor isn’t allowed to actually pastor, then it is no longer an authentic church of Jesus Christ and I refuse to contribute to the pretense.
“If the pastor isn’t allowed to actually pastor, then it is no longer an authentic church of Jesus Christ …”
AMEN!!
Todd,
I too had heard about a view of ministry that is formed by that statement “make sure you are called” and “if you can do anything else and be satisfied, do it.”
I know now, without any equivocation, that the statement itself is a false narrative.
Paul’s encouragement, admonition and instruction to Timothy is diametrically opposed to the false narrative. The Holy Spirit knew that the church will have…not simply needs men to lead them, encourage them, help hold them together, fight for them, teach them, etc., etc. Pastoring the living church is hard, hard work, ….and important work that is not lightly considered. Yet, make no mistake about it… the Holy Spirit made it clear that “men are to raise holy hands” and remain qualified, to preach and teach in the church. Its a great work! Hard work! Not unlike being a great plumber, tent maker, etc., and not diametrically opposed to it as well.
It struck me many, many years ago that when leaders within the church give the wrong and puny excuse to boys, young men, and men in the church by using the well worn phrase “make sure you are called” and “if you can do anything else and be satisfied, do it”, they are missing the point, and leading boys, young men, and even older men down a path of defeatism, and ultimately the churches that adopt that philosophy begin to establish an unhealthy routine of feelings and biases, based around many of the points you have outlined.
If this attitude of defeatism is changed within the SBC, on this one simple front, right teaching make a substantial difference in the life and maturing of the churches. Please don’t take this as bashing your topic, because I think the topic itself is extremely important in the life of the church! I would love to see the false narrative changed to a biblical one… 1 Timothy is a good place to start.
Respectfully,
Chris
I think the reason that advice is given is precisely because of the feelings, and others like them, that I have expressed here. Many young men going into ministry have a pollyannish view that is blind to the very real hardships that accompany the joys of ministry.
Todd, to that point, no doubt. Maybe the boys, young men, and older men, are not told the truth at the start. But, I don’t think it is biblical to begin with a false narrative.
Take the last point…. “I want to be normal. I don’t want to live in a fishbowl. I don’t want to have to pray at every function, have advice for every situation, or have to be cheerful all the time. I want to be able to make mistakes, go to the movies, cut someone off in traffic, tell a joke, yell at my kids, eat at a restaurant, go on vacation, drive a nice car, wear a loud shirt or do any number of normal things without being judged, looked down on, or gossiped about. I want to be able to go out in public without everyone having a cow because I do something that supposedly a minister is not supposed to do. I want to be normal.”
Being a leader in the church is normal. Thinking the things in the paragraph are certainly not normal, and that is probably the point you are hammering home. The art to having change in leadership though is “qualifying”, not just “arriving” fresh out of seminary. A couple years of seminary doesn’t really get you much. The guys still must qualify and remain qualified in the church. The attitude expressed in the last paragraph of the article does not express actions of a man qualified to Pastor the church.
Maybe guys are getting into the “business” of church for the wrong reasons, and without being qualified? And then creating their own messes.
But see, that goes back to some of the other points. If merely feeling a desire to be “normal” disqualifies someone for ministry, then that feeds the fear of being found out and the sense of feeling alone because there is no one with whom one can honestly share that feeling.
And if the feelings expressed in the last paragraph make one not qualified to pastor, who on earth is qualified?!? Doesn’t every pastor feel a desire to not be on a pedestal or in a fishbowl from time to time? Or are you suggesting that a pastor having these thoughts at all means he should just resign?
Todd, no…you are missing my point. Feelings only come from what we think anyway. We, as leaders in the church, need to change the thinking about the phrase as well though. It’s simply a false narrative.
I’m all for helping the wounded, but that is the easy part. Being patient, empathetic, and caring to someone that is having a tough go at it…now that is normal. Yet, The harder work is starting out on the right course, and maintaining that rigor. Run, and finish the race.
I think this is a very real experience for many. One of the truest is about being alone. There is really no one a pastor can open up to with his feelings of doubt, discouragement, etc. And let’s face it, most pastors don’t seek out other pastors to help shepherd through tough times nor seek other pastors for some shepherding.
One of the best things I did back when I was pastoring a church was to see out a very seasoned, 70 plus year old pastor to spend time with and talk to. He was a lifeline.
Last, may I recommend an org that seeks to do just what pastors need? My friend Jimmy Dodd heads up PastorServe. It is a lifeline to many pastors around the US and even the world. http://www.pastorserve.net
Les, you make some good points sir, and hit the nerve why men end up in a dead end street. Its because they don’t seek other like minded men. Pastors that struggle in this area have huge egos and love to do their own thing (in love and humility in their own minds, of course). But none the less, many fail because they were put into service by a eager group of folks to market and grow a ministry in their area of the world. That is a backwards way of ministry. Ministry must remain vigilant with qualified men leading. That was the Apostle Paul’s thrust. Eagerness and “this is the only thing I can do in life” is just not real life, or mature, nor does it encourage the church in the long run (it is a long race).
Not one of the things you list are true but then I’ve felt all of them at times, just not all at once and not to the degree that quitting looked better than staying. LifeWay and state conventions offer services to pastors who need counseling in this area. Anyone who asks for help will receive it.
It is a false narrative that pastors are quitting in droves. About one percent per year is the number of pastors who quit for reasons other than retirement or death.
http://www.lifeway.com/pastors/2015/09/01/research-finds-few-pastors-give-up-on-ministry/
Why in the world should someone not go to a restaurant? If a guy wants to go to either McDonalds, Wendy’s, In N Out Burger, Freddies, Jersey Mike’s, the Panda, Burger King or whatever I say let him go.
At least here in OKC I’ve seen both church members as well as pastors and other church staff members going to these joints, so I don’t think there is a universal unwritten rule that says that pastors can only go to certain places.
I don’t want to drop names but I’ve been to local joints with at least two State Execs and/or Entity heads. Even some guys here on SBC voices organized a group lunch at a BBQ joint in Tenn. So the idea of not wanting to be seen going out to eat at some particular type of place must be unique to your particular situation.
If Jesus ate with sinners why can’t we go to Subway?
“I want to be normal.”
You know, fellows, I have thought about “normal” a great deal over the years and have come to the conclusion that “being normal” is highly overrated.
I think maybe Paul came to that same conclusion. Paul wrote that he had learned to be content in whatever circumstances he was. He wrote that he had learned how to get along with humble means, and he had learned how to live in prosperity. He also stated that he had learned that in any and every circumstance he knew the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. He said he could deal with all because Jesus gave him the strength to do so.
I have come to believe Paul was right. Being up or down, fat and sassy, or kicked in the side of the head and jabbed in the eye with a sharp stick, it just don’t much matter, because in the end, Christ is sufficient. So all I have to do is obey Him and leave the consequence of my obedience to Him.
Yep, I have come to the conclusion that being “normal” is highly overrated, so I don’t worry about it too much anymore.
🙂
Yes. Normal is indeed overrated. Yet, the world has a draw that sometimes breaks through and the flesh wants to cooperate. When those feelings come, I need to press into God and, like Paul, learn to “count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.”
(Can I at least keep my convertible and my Hawaii vacation though?)
Sure, why can you not keep your dream car and vacation thoughts? And hey, God may well give you both. Your only obligation if He does is to obey Him in all things and remember that they are gifts and will one day go the way of the dodo bird and be gone. “Cause everything in this life is going to go except that which is of Christ.
Todd, you are a highly intelligent guy. You are extremely well educated and you obviously have common sense as is illustrated by things you write here and things you put on twitter.
I think something is just ridding you hard right now and you may have just a little touch of tunnel vision. I think that happens to every guy who takes his calling and ministry seriously. (I know that happens to me and most of the guys I know from time-to-time)
However, I have finally, . .. .almost finally, learned that the grace of the King is sufficient. When I keep that focus, I can keep getting up even when not only am I in the hog pen, so to speak, but the pigs are trying to eat me rather than the “husks.”
Stay the course, my friend. Christ is sufficient.
Thanks, CB … and no worries. 🙂 I don’t have these thoughts all at once nor are they overwhelming. On the ministry front, a door is opening for me right now and I am seeking God’s direction on whether to step through it. If I’m called, it will be a greater responsibility than I have taken on before and I am feeling the weight of what it will mean to say “yes” to God. These are some of the thoughts I’ve considered as I prepare to step into this new role (if indeed I am asked to do so).
My wife read the post and remarked that “Transparency is what you and I have to offer that God has given us as a gift, being real.”
I put these thoughts in a blog because I hope it will be helpful to others and so that the comments and encouragement from other pastors may be helpful to any that can relate to what I have written.
… and, btw, knowing some of the things you’ve been through in serving Him, your words carry much weight with me.
Yes, keep your convertible by all means. I don’t have a convertible but I do take the top off of my Corvette coupe during those rare days when the weather is nice.
Also, basking in the shadow of Diamond Head sounds OK to me. I know at least one prominent leader in the SBC that goes over there for a few weeks each winter.
Roger
CB,
I’ve never thought of you as normal.
🙂
David
😉
That’s about the most intelligent thing Worley has ever said.
Never read the book, but my favorite book title is, “Normal is just a setting on your Dryer.”
To be “normal” is essentially to be conformed to the image of the people around us. It’s to take what the typical person around us does and use that as the standard to which we compare ourselves. Seems to me that God is already working on conforming us to a quite different image (Rom 8:29), and has a different standard to which we should compare ourselves (Jesus).
Todd,
You nailed it, with this post, Brother. Excellent insight.
David
Thanks, David.
Thank you for a great post. I’ve felt the same on many occasions and at times thought they were unique to my ministry situation. A good thing is to keep asking the Lord for wisdom, balance in time and priorities and even to keep asking his will for one’s ministry at a particular location is still the way to go. At times the ministry does seem glamorous but in reality all the questions and struggles you wrote down will come in our lives and the new or younger pastor needs to be ready to deal with them.
I’m not a pastor. I am a 63 year old elder in a small SB church in California.
I remember a blog post written by Dave a few years ago about how alone he was in ministry. Or perhaps “isolated” is the better term. I remember being genuinely perplexed, not wanting to believe this was prevalent. Todd addresses this same issue as follows:
“I feel so alone. I’m an extrovert, yet I spend many hours by myself. When I’m with people, I still feel alone. I have no one to really talk to, no one to confide in, no one to whom I can confess my secret sins. Lots of people think they know the pressures of ministry, but they really don’t. If I’m discouraged, I can’t tell anyone.”
Les acknowledges the same problem. Chris restates the problem by saying that pastors “don’t seek other like minded men.”
Do all pastors really feel this isolated, so devoid of deep, trusting male friendship within the churches they pastor? How is it possible that a pastor can minister the Gospel for years and not develop trusting male friendships?
I know the work of a pastor is hard, demanding and can feel unrewarding. But going to Chris’s comment, do pastors really believe that only other pastors can understand the pressures and challenges in pastoral ministry? Can only pastors be “like-minded”? Is it possible that much of this isolation might be unintentionally self-imposed?
Brothers, I really want to know how this isolation develops. It seems like it is a problem with a solution. If a pastor had deep, abiding friendships within the church many of the other nine issues could be better managed or prevented.
I intend to directly ask my pastor if this is a problem he experiences.
Thanks to Todd for an honest, thought provoking post.
Nathan Petty, I would like to hug your neck!! Well said. My comments were really targeted at the well worn adage that is sometimes worn more as a badge, than a warning. The adage is simply misleading on many fronts. I certainly realize the difficulty of doing any job well! Work is work.
But as you have stated,…Pastors need those relationships, should not be isolated, should have men like you …. thank you sir for your comment and service. Your wisdom is what needs to be gleaned from those precious Pauline letters and men aspiring to lead in the church.
“Work is work.”
Chris, you are just wrong on that. There are many aspects of pastoral ministry, including both the spiritual responsibility and spiritual warfare, that are just not found in any other calling.
Todd, I should clarify,… it is a fine work! Spiritual warfare is found in a lot of places for all believers. But, I do hear your message. Thanks for letting me clarify. I am not at all discounting the work involved with Pastoring,…none, whatsoever.
These discussions among pastors are ubiquitous and sometimes self-defeating. Thank God for a layman who offers a different perspective.
I make no judgment about Todd (or Dave whose earlier post is referenced in the comment above) but if there are markers for depression among pastors they surely include feelings of worthlessness, despair, loneliness, fatigue, and hopelessness. For God’s sake, your church’s sake, your family’s sake and your own sake…get to a doctor, a counselor and get on the road to thinking soberly.
No. The task of a pastor is not uniquely intense and arduous relative to other occupations.
Could difficulties be self-imposed? You bet.
Who says the pastor cannot have close friendships? He would be wise to cultivate friendships outside of his congregation but even within it he can find satisfying friendships.
Who said success looked like the mega-guy down the road?
I have a theory, a wild conjecture actually, that the pool of SBC clergy is filled with more guys who have a megachurch and large church background, whose model is the successful mega entrepreneur and as a result have little contact with the typical, single staff SBC congregation where 70-80% of the clergy positions are. Add to that the buster and millennial vocational restlessness and you end up with a lot of crash and burn stories.
For background information, almost all my church experience has been in churches with less than 200 members and I am currently in my 8th year serving in the same place.
Even people with close friendships often feel alone.
I’m having a hard time understanding how now two pastors are saying that pastoral ministry is no different than any other job. If we’re just talking about the tasks themselves, then of course you are right. But what I’m referring to is the spiritual warfare, spiritual responsibility — the spending and being spent for souls. The only way this could just be like any other job for me is if I did not care whether the people I shepherd had any relationship with God or not.
Yes, there are some aspects of ministry that I believe cannot be explained, only experienced. As for the close friendships, I find that few men in our culture find the kinds of true friendships that I and others long for, no matter what their vocation.
The trouble for pastors is that the kind of close friendships needed to cure the loneliness problem requires a very high level of trust, vulnerability, and transparency. And that means a high level of risk.
Todd, you are right. Trust, vulnerability and transparency attends with high levels of risk, whether you’re a pastor or an accountant like me. And I agree that there are challenging aspects of pastoral ministry which are unique, along with (I hope and trust) special blessing. Eternity is vastly significant compared to whether or I not I get a tax return right.
I truly hurt when I read what you wrote:
“Churches need leadership”
“All my life I’ve been trying to prove to myself and to others that I am good enough.”
“If I fall as a leader, it could destroy me, destroy my family, destroy my ministry.”
“The demands are great. The need is never-ending. The stakes are high. The complaints are many. The unity is fragile. The conflicts are continuous. The pressure is intense. The workload is overwhelming. The ministry is physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually demanding. I don’t know if I can handle all of this for another 25 years.”
“Ministry constantly pulls me away from family to the many needs of the church body.”
“I want to be able to go out in public without everyone having a cow because I do something that supposedly a minister is not supposed to do.”
Brother, if I felt like this I would be looking for an exit as well. It just seems as though someone (maybe just the system) taught you about a church’s expectations for “leadership”, and then this definition of “leadership” led to demands on you and your family which God never intended.
I, for one, don’t expect or need my pastor to be a leader if it entails all of these demands. I certainly don’t have expectations of perfection.
I ask for understanding from all the pastors who might read this. I was raised in a SB church at a time when we were taught about how much better we were than the Roman Catholics. One reason is that we believed in the priesthood of the believer and we didn’t need a human mediator to serve God.
Over several decades of observation it seems as though many pastors have been taught and mentored in such a way that they end up trying to fulfill the role (albeit in a less profound way) of an first covenant (or Roman Catholic) priest. Yes, a pastor has a holy calling. But no more holy calling than a Christian truck driver. Just a different setting.
One of my 91 year old father’s favorite passage (edited for effect).
“He has told you, O man (O pastor), what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?”
Todd, you are a pastor. But before you became a pastor you were my brother, adopted by the same saving God. I pray that God will bring a Godly brother into your life, someone who you can trust. And right soon.
Thanks. Actually my situation is a little different. I am not looking for an exit, I’m contemplating an entrance.
A year ago, I helped our church reunify with a church we had split from 11 years before. In order to make the merge work, I went from being the senior pastor of the split to being an associate pastor of the newly merged/reunified congregation. Today, I am in the position where I may be asked to step back into the senior pastor role. My post today reflects some past feelings and experience and anticipation of moving back into that role. The weight I feel today is the anticipation of assuming leadership and not being in the midst of it. This year of stepping away from the senior pastor role has been a time of respite and this essay is more of a questioning than it is some kind of cry for help.
I wrote and posted the thoughts, though, because however ubiquitous such essays may be, I find that for every pastor who is willing to be open and vulnerable about their thoughts/feelings, there are dozens that remain silent. I also hope that laymen such as yourself might gain some insight into what your pastor may be going through or has experienced at various points in his ministry.
If you look back at my blogging history at Voices, you’ll see that I occasionally post these “transparency” pieces — not to evoke sympathy or as some cry for help, but to give voice to feelings that many pastors are unable to share openly.
I will take this opportunity to be more sensitive and proactive about these problems. Your willingness to share is appreciated.
The greatest thing you can do is to pray for and with your pastor. All pastors need encouragement — I have yet to meet an exception to that rule.
Here’s an old post to help with that:
https://sbcvoices.com/how-to-pray-for-your-pastor/
Todd, that helps me understand a little more of why you penned the post in the manner you did. So, thanks for the clarification.
I’ll be praying that God gives you wisdom to be content in the choice that you make brother!
“The only way this could just be like any other job for me is if I did not care whether the people I shepherd had any relationship with God or not.”
I see from the statement you recorded earlier…why you may feel the way you feel. I would just say and encourage you to try and view it differently. Whatever “job” you have, contentment is possible, since we should have a desire for all men to know Christ in whatever job or situation we are presented. There is no “magic” in being a Pastor,…only additional responsibility shepherded by the Holy Spirit for Christ’s church that men should aspire to do. The responsibility can be trying…no doubt. But, we need more men to aspire and remain qualified to do the work of ministry.
I truly hope you find contentment in whatever decision you make for you and your family!
Blessings,
And, yes, overall the special blessings of ministry cause the special challenges to pale in comparison. 🙂
I’ve been in churches in opposite ends of this. One church ultimately fired me b/c I wasn’t “perfect.”
I was the one who had to clean the toilets and mow the lawn, and when I suggested a rotation list of able bodied men, I was informed, “They’re too busy with their own yards, they don’t have time to help with this one.”
The last church meeting I had with them, I tried to explain that I’m a human with good traits and traits that need further sanctification, just like them. One lady responded, “A pastor can’t have struggles. If he has struggles then he can’t help us with our struggles.” No one challenged her on that.
So I was supposed to do everything and somehow be everything.
The church I’m at now is much different. I have close friends in the church body (though, my “can share anything with” friends are 3 other pastors in my general area), I have deacons who ask me on occasion, “What can we do to help you?”, and each Sunday morning I end the service saying, “I love you, church” and I sincerely mean it–even though they sometimes frustrate me and I’m sure I them.
But to get there over the last 5.5 years it took 1) keeping expectations in perspective, 2) intentionally focusing on relationship building, and 3) take risks in sharing deep-heart things with those other pastors.
Inside or outside the church, I think a lot of us pastors have a hard time with deep friendships from being burned in the past. That’s a fear/hurt that we have to spend a lot of time with God to get past.
About 25 years ago, I worked through “Experiencing God” by Henry Blackaby for the first time. After that, my role as pastor became much more focused and simple. So, I began asking God to show me where He was at work. He did. Now, after 31 years, I know one thing for certain. All of the stresses and weaknesses and anxiety I had are rolled up inside the weekly exposition of Scripture I take on every week.
I have very few moments of lasting anxiety anymore, because God’s Word delivers to such a degree that He has completely filled in all the gaps I saw missing in myself back then. Keep going!
Tracy Watson
That’s a good word. Thanks, Tracy.
“I worked through “Experiencing God” by Henry Blackaby for the first time. After that, my role as pastor became much more focused and simple. So, I began asking God to show me where He was at work.”
Brother Blackaby’s challenge to the church to look for where God is working and join Him there continues to be good counsel. Many in ministry – both pulpit and pew – beat themselves to a ragged edge keeping up with activities and programs … while missing where He is really at work. When you seek His face to find that place, ministry flows in His presence and in His strength. It’s amazing where you will find God actively working when your focus changes … you might even have to get out of the confines of your church to find Him at work. Brother Blackaby’s ministry and his teaching “Experiencing God” has been a gift to the church … it forces us to examine ‘our’ work in light of ‘His’.
Some of these are actually good to have in some measure. For example, if you don’t feel the burden of ministry to some degree I doubt your seriousness. Or, if you can’t just be a “normal” pastor, but have to be an extraordinary pastor or bust, then I would say that’s a good thing. But in general I think this is a pretty good list.
I would add one: if you are pursuing the pastorate and you would be upset if you discovered at some point that you weren’t “called”, then you shouldn’t be a pastor. It represents a fundamental failure to trust God’s direction for your life. You have to be okay with not being a pastor in order to be a pastor.
Hi Todd,
This is a problem that stems from one thing, and that is God’s household is meant to be led and headed by one man, and that is Christ Jesus. God has showed us that this is done by God working to through qualified Overseers/Elders. These men should demonstrated the Spiritual Gifts to Teach and Pastor the flock. There is no such thing as a Senior Pastor in Scriptures, there is only a Chief Shepherd and that is Christ Jesus. Many of your problems you state come from a lack of obedience to Scripture. Furthermore, you must consider if you are truly call to be an Elder because 1 Peter 5:2 NASB says you should be eager and willing to shepherd (guide, tend to, feed) the flock; not under compulsion but voluntarily.
I grieve because we bring this hierarchy structure to the church that Scripture teaches against, and creates a culture of people burdening one man to the point of exhaustion.
Not to get sidetracked to a discussion about the plurality of elders, but a few observations before bridging the context from the NT era to today. (1) The multiple elders we see in the NT was in the context of the city church that met in multiple locations, not an autonomous church of 70-120 with its own budget and building; (2) While the title of “senior” may not be in the text, we certainly see the idea of a lead elder among the elders and most elder models today reflect this; (3) Most SBC churches, still function on the single and/or senior pastor model and whatever teaching or changes to be made won’t be made before actually becoming the pastor. Even if one concedes the plural elder model, most SBC churches are not currently structured this way and a calling to elder/pastor ministry does not necessarily mean a call to church planting.
On the thoughts/emotions expressed here. Having this kind of wrestling with one’s calling or the hardships of spiritual leadership (regardless of polity) do not mean that the person is not willing and eager to shepherd. Often the joys and delights of pastoring are co-mingled with the hardships and doubts. Paul himself described his experience as “so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself.” Putting voice to what many pastors feel and experience does not mean that the pastor is not eager and willing to serve — it just means they do so for the joy set before them in spite of the hardships and difficulties.
Nevertheless, your point is well taken: when experiencing these thoughts/feelings, you must consider if you are truly called — hence the subtitle of the article “10 reasons NOT to be a pastor”
Hi Todd,
First I would like to say it is not my intent to judge if you are called or qualified based on your post. I appreciate someone posting honesty on the feelings of Pastoring. I know that we are human and we grieve and suffer with our own sin and the sin of others; especially when you are called to care, and attend others. My only intent is to remind you of your calling and what God said of about being called; which always brings me joy in the midst of grief. A Christian without suffering, cannot find bliss and joy in Christ that preserves them.
Secondly, I am not trying to change the topic, but truly Church Polity and the lack biblical obedience is the problem that grieves me and is causing you to write this article (rather you recognize it or not). Nowhere in Scriptures do we see Paul, John, Peter, or James treat individual homes like local Churches; to the contrary it is just one local body in one city (Ephesus, Corinth, Philippi, and the towns on the island of Crete.) I can pile up a mountain of biblical evidence, but that will not matter if you are just comfortable with conforming to culture and man made “Church” versus modeling the Household of God. I know these things I speak of are explicit in Paul’s greetings to the Churches; Paul distinguishing between being at home and when All the the believers assembled together to partake in communion. In short this idea of local churches of God in the same city, acting autonomous to each other is unbiblical; and it really models what we see in John’s 3rd epistle, in regards to Diotrephes – “but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say”; showing us even in the 1st century this concept of one exalting himself amongst others and not showing the fellowship outwardly towards the other Churches, was a cancer trying to spread even in the 1st century. Thank God for Gaius and Demetrius for faithfulness to truth.
However, all that being said my point is still that I believe you will find your yoke lighter working within the biblical prescription for God’s household, versus man’s prescription. I personally will never consider being involved in a organization that has a hierarchal structure in regards to membership. My only interest is in the household of God.
Consider that God could be asking you this – Joshua 24:15 NASB
“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Todd is too kind to say it but this kind of advice is particularly unhelpful and should be ignored. It is better viewed as a drive-by blame-the-victim lecture from a self-absorbed expert. Thanks a bunch anyway.
Come on William…. You are telling Robert that there is no correlation to why Pastors may feel lonely, doubt effectiveness, failure, a sense of being in a bubble, etc. is not at all tied to how Pastors view themselves relative to the “non-Pastor” class. And that an unrealistic view of how a Pastor is the target, or king of hill is not at all tied to what he has learned from tradition and seminary on ecclesiology.
Robert may have tried to sum up the problem very quickly, but he has certainly put the flashlight beam into the right corner of the room.
There is little doubt that loneliness, and the victim card played by Pastors can be self-inflicted, even if they have the best of intentions. Maybe it is simply ignorance and not having any other view of ministry and working with others.
Heck, I see it all the time in and around Nashville. There are many, many guys (Pastors) that have their kingdoms (well meaning kingdom) on earth built on some pile of dirt. They will protect that to no end. When they are fired by the folks that have an ownership interest in the dirt and like it better than they do, it is typically the Pastor that get his feelings hurt. I don’t think that Robert is against busting up that type of tragedy.
He may be trying to point us toward some of the starting points of how feelings are formed.
William,
don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater – I think the commentor has a point – this “I am an island because I am the senior pastor – therefore I can’t show “weakness” or I can’t share responsibility and accountability with other qualified men” mentality is pervasive in the southern Baptist convention we claim to reject hierarchy but that is exactly what we do in our autonomous churches.
I think the point he’s making is that this hierarchy that we’ve created, at least in part, contributes to the feelings of isolation and depression that targets pastors – and I think he’s got a point.
I don’t blame this solely on pastors who embrace it – I also blame this on congregations that expect it – and seminaries that teach it – and the whole autonomous atmosphere that Stokes it.
Tarheel…. sounds like you have been around a while and have seen what is undeniably true. To your point, it is a sad situation that doesn’t have to exist, but it is a well worn path in churches. Some folks would rather ignore it, and keep moving down the “same” path as if moving even further away from the solution is the best option.
Most of the time its better to just turn around and head toward a solution; even as it gets ugly.
Some of the most divided, vicious, mean-spirited churches I’ve seen are “elder-led.” The idea the elder-led ecclesiology solves all our problems is little more that ecclesiological fantasy.
God’s people walking in spiritual humility and in the fullness of the Spirit is far more important than structure. I’m not against elder leadership – if I were starting a church I’d use it.
But the idea that it solves all problems is ridiculous.
And for Robert to come on here and say it does, then to whine about being “sinned against” because people did not applaud his response is equally unbelievable.
Look, guys – I am amazed at the insensitivity of some guys toward pastors who express their foibles and weakness. But the money line is the one Todd used somewhere here.
Some of you, and your comments, are why guys stay silent and suffer their pain alone.
Dave – “Some of the most divided, vicious, mean-spirited churches I’ve seen are “elder-led.” The idea the elder-led ecclesiology solves all our problems is little more that ecclesiological fantasy.”
I am sorry Dave I must have missed in Scriptures were God said we should act and follow your advice based on your life experience. I believe the word of God is sufficient, just as the Apostles. I never once said Wolves would not be in the Church. However, we are to hold to the teaching of Christ.
Dave – “God’s people walking in spiritual humility and in the fullness of the Spirit is far more important than structure. I’m not against elder leadership – if I were starting a church I’d use it.”
Once again, I must have missed when you became the source of infallible commands on how we should conduct ourselves in the Church of God. I do not disagree with you in part, but you are not giving the full council of God. John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Dave – “But the idea that it solves all problems is ridiculous.”
Amazing, No said it solves all problem; but God prescribed it and I put my hope in Christ. Who are you to make a mockery of that?
Dave – “And for Robert to come on here and say it does, then to whine about being “sinned against” because people did not applaud his response is equally unbelievable.”
What is unbelievable is that you slander me because I believe in what God instructed for His Church. You do not rebuke me from scripture. You nor William refute what I say with biblical evidence; you misrepresent my position and, claiming to know God, attack me verbally. To that I say thank you. I will take your reproach and rejoice even more in God’s word. What more can I expect for a hard heart oppose to the word of God.
Dave – “Look, guys – I am amazed at the insensitivity of some guys toward pastors who express their foibles and weakness. But the money line is the one Todd used somewhere here.”
And then you talk about insensitivity. You are why guys are not liberated, you want guys to be oppressed in this culture of disobedience. In all your experience and knowledge that existed before the creation of the world, that which makes you scoff at the Word of God; Have you reconciled are Sin with God? For it was Dave Miller on the Cross and not Christ.
A Wolf disguised as a Sheep
I have not once attacked Todd, but because I speak against the culture that causes and leads to such issues, you claim I attack him. The problem is you hate the word obedience. Men hate the idea of submitting, which is why you resist with scripture teach with all your might.
To be clear – I am not suggesting that any form of church structure solves all problems – in fact I’m not aware of anyone who has said that –
I do believe though that there is some merit in discussion of a possible contributing factor to the depression and the issues that you speak of being the “go it alone mentality” that The common hierarchy in Southern Baptist churches fosters.
Dave, I respect your views. You have earned it.
Robert’s is a classic, simplistic blame the victim couched in religio-talk and when he says he’s not trying to change the topic, of course that is exactly what that was about. He did a good job providing the template for such an approach.
I guess that could be gleaned out of his comments as well, but he did form some thoughts around the institution, not only the individual. There is some merit there. Maybe he will address why depression and other feelings follow a sense of being trapped in a tough ministry position.
Gentlemen,
I confess that it is my opinion, but I tend to agree with William Thornton here. Robert Brooks has made statements in the absolute about the concept of the church and its NT structural nature as if his is the only credible position.
Guys, “It just ain’t so.” Robert Brooks comes up short here.
The concept of the “local church” in the NT is not so easily defined. There are references to singular house churches in Paul’s writings. There are references in NT writings using the singular “church” to designate several churches in a region. In Acts 9:31 “the church” included groups throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria.
In Paul’s confession of persecution of “the church” he did not confine himself to one local church, but to many as is revealed in 1 Corinthians 15.
There is also the concept of what David Rogers wrote of a few years ago that spurred me to reconsider my own position, that concept being what I think he called the “City Church Paradigm.” One illustration of the city church is found in 1 Corinthians 1:2. The word is singular, yet it must have represented several house churches in Corinth. However, the reference was no doubt singular in that it was confined to churches in the city of Corinth and did not include other churches in such places as Athens or Thessalonica. Paul used the same word in the singular when he wrote 1 Thessalonica (SEE:1:1). As was the case in his letter to the Church of God at Corinth, there is no doubt he was addressing several house churches, yet referenced them all in the singular in him opening remarks in 1 Thessalonians.
The word “church” as used in the NT can reference a house church, several house churches in a city, or many churches, some located in singular houses and some found in cities of a region.
Then there is the reference to the singular church in 1 Corinthians 10:32 that does not fit in any category mentioned above.– singular, yet including more than one city or region.
Therefore, I reject Robert Brooks statements of an absolute as to what constitutes “the” church or “a” church in the NT.
Frankly, I think Robert Brooks counsel to Todd is not unlike that Job received from his three friend.
I agree. The beauty of the teachings of the Apostles regarding church government is that what they taught clearly is true for all churches, but what they didn’t teach clearly seems to be optimal for adapting to the needs of churches is different situations.
CB offers astute commentary.
CB Scott – “The concept of the “local church” in the NT is not so easily defined”.
Here is the beginning of what I call the Defense Lawyer argument. I use to try to defend the position, until I realize that I was Sinning against God. I was telling people that God’s word is not sufficient. Proverbs 30:5-6 NIV ““Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.”
Here is explicitly Paul defining the Church in scripture 1 Corinthian 1:2
“To the church of God in Corinth” – A single assembly of God in Corinth. One local assembly or congregation in Corinth.
But Wait, Paul gives further Definition:
Who makes up this Single assembly and congregation in Corinth?
“to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people”
And are these sanctified people who assemble together in Corinth autonomous worshiping alone as they see fit? Absolutely Not
“together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours”
Paul identifies this single assembly in Corinth with an association to the Universal Church of God.
CB Scott – ” There are references to singular house churches in Paul’s writings”.
I take this as you can provide verses to support this comment, because none you provided do. Paul never refer to a household being a church “assembly or congregation” in any city that was autonomous from another household (1 Cor 1:16 NIV). One city, One body, One assembly, built-up by many households in the city who assemble Together for worship. We see in Paul’s letter that the Church assembled TOGETHER not in their own household (for communion and orderly worship). 1 Cor 11:17-18 NASB –
“But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.”
This Single assembly comes together to partake as a Church. This is a Local Church in Corinth. NOT a household
Paul rebukes Division and rebukes the selfishness that some households were showing when they ate and drunk the wine without sharing. Point being, we see households all coming together 1 Cor 11:20-22 NASB – “Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink?”
We also see the concept again of the Universal Church of God, that their actions are reflecting poorly on – 1 Cor 11:23 NASB –
“Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.”
I share Paul’s feeling towards this ideology of Church you are promoting. I call for repentance.
CB Scott – ” There are references in NT writings using the singular “church” to designate several churches in a region. In Acts 9:31 “the church” included groups throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria”
Yea Paul was referring to the the local Churches in regards to the cities of that Region (not households), which makes up the Universal Church of God.
CB Scott – “In Paul’s confession of persecution of “the church” he did not confine himself to one local church, but to many as is revealed in 1 Corinthians 15″
Paul refers himself with the Universal Church of God, in his ministry of the Gospel. I agree. I do not see what point you are making.
CB-Scott – ” The word is singular, yet it must have represented several house churches in Corinth. However, the reference was no doubt singular in that it was confined to churches in the city of Corinth and did not include other churches in such places as Athens or Thessalonica. Paul used the same word in the singular when he wrote 1 Thessalonica (SEE:1:1). As was the case in his letter to the Church of God at Corinth, there is no doubt he was addressing several house churches, yet referenced them all in the singular in him opening remarks in 1 Thessalonians”
Once again you and David Rogers are reading something into the text – the concept of plural autonomous household churches making up One Church. That is not in the text. There is only one Church in Thessalonica, In Acts 17 does Paul refer to a household being a single church of God; the converts in Thessalonica and Berea are one local church.
CB-Scott –
“Then there is the reference to the singular church in 1 Corinthians 10:32 that does not fit in any category mentioned above.– singular, yet including more than one city or region”
Clearly Paul is speaking of the Universal Church of God, surely Paul means anything they eat or drink to the glory of God should not offend any believer of Christ – 1 Cor 10:32
“Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;”
CB-Scott – “Therefore, I reject Robert Brooks statements of an absolute as to what constitutes “the” church or “a” church in the NT.”
If you reject the Word of God and tell people that God’s word is not clear, I would expect you to reject me. Your argument reminds me of the Serpent in the Garden of Eden – Genesis 3:1 NASB “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” A little truth mixed with lie (muddying the water). Genesis 3:4 NASB “You surely will not die! 5For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” God is withholding something good from us, what he freely gave us is not sufficient. All leading to someone like Jim Pemberton eating the fruit –
“but what they didn’t teach clearly seems to be optimal for adapting to the needs of churches is different situations.” – God’s word is not sufficient, his creation has out grown what He provided. Blasphemy.
Yes you do reject me; but your biggest problem is you reject God.
This just grieves me. Repent to God, not me.
William Thornton,
I appreciate your comments, because it shows an argument from the human nature that dwells within you and obviously out of you; let me clarify even more, you are depending on your own knowledge of what is good and evil which has manifested in you sinning against me in the form of slander.
Now I read my comments to make sure my flesh did not take over and give you reason, but I believe God’s word prevailed. My primary point to Todd is that the culture adapted Church Structure of Hierarchy causes these issues. And Yes, the solution I see in scripture is a plurality of Elder led Churches along with everything else we see prescribed by God. The implicit point that also is there, is that there is a imperative command that we all must choose to conform to God or conform to Culture.
Furthermore, if you read Todd’s first three reasons you would think he was Jesus about to go to the cross absent the Holy Spirit and the will of the Father; all alone and trying to lead all by himself. There is a major problem with that, and it is not Todd’s fought because this is what we hear and see growing-up in church: from the members who have this expectation of “Senior Pastor” as if he is Jesus Christ. From the Leaders talking about 5 steps plans of success, or what to do and what not to do as a “Senior Pastor” leading the sheep. All alone Christ is nowhere in the picture or discussions; sheep become very content with leaving this task of Leadership up to one man. Moses understood that he could not lead the people of Israel without God presences being with him Exodus 33:12-17 NASB. Also, Moses was a Foreshadow of Christ and Moses delegated to Elders for leading the people because Moses a mere human would exhaust himself; why would we think we can bare the load alone, despite over and over Christ being referred to the Head of the Church, we place ourselves in His seat. Moreover, we see Christ did not just leave one Apostle or a hierarchy structure amongst the Apostle (unless you distort scriptures and ignore His teachings). Why? because they were not fallible, and they needed each other to strengthen each other by redirecting each other to the teachings, and work of Christ on the cross, when one’s vision became cloudy with human nature (Sin nature). They submitted themselves to prayer and study Together, to get direction from Christ Jesus so that Christ would truly be the Head of the Church.
All of these things are important because it truly shows in our actions that Christ is actively leading the Church; this allow Elders to grow and continue to be sanctified just like all the other sheep of the flock (shepherds are just sheep); it allows the sheep to look to Christ as the one true Shepherd, discipling them to become Elders themselves. Everyone understanding each others weakness, everyone understanding that we all NEED Christ and the fellowship of brothers and sisters in Christ, there is no exception even amongst the Elders.
This totally eliminates the the feeling of isolation and depression that comes from the lack of true fellowship that Elders should have amongst themselves and with the body. However, we must understand that we cannot put our ultimate trust in others, we will be disappointed, hurt, and fall short in ministry; but Christ will preserve us. It is okay to sit in the pew, and let God use another Elder to provide Exhortation from the pulpit, so that you may hear Christ when the human flesh clouds your ears and vision.
In the books of Acts it never said Peter, John, Paul, James; all alone as leaders grew the Church; NO, it says – Acts 2:47 NASB “… praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved…”
All these things are foreign to our culture, but not to Scripture. We want let Christ wash our feet through another brother because we have exalted ourselves to some position that is non-existent in Scripture which gives birth to all of these feelings.
This is not Todd’s fault, it a disobedience on all our parts for conforming to culture versus holding to Scripture and trusting God; treating God’s household like we are the builder versus the Stewards.
Bye, bye, Robert. I recognize a hobby horse when I see one…giddy-up.
That’s rather rude.
So, Robert Brooks,
I take it that you have not made the study of biblical languages your strong suit, but rather have perfected the art of eisegesis instead. Having now read your work here, I commend you. You have excelled in your chosen discipline.
CB-Scott -“I take it that you have not made the study of biblical languages your strong suit, but rather have perfected the art of eisegesis instead. Having now read your work here, I commend you. You have excelled in your chosen discipline”
It never fails to amaze me how people who claim God, hearts can be so far from God. However, you are a Hebrew and a Greek scholar now; and we must be on your caliber to understand the God’s Word. History just repeats itself with the Church or people in the Church claiming, with this elitism attitude, that a common person cannot understand God’s word because they lack the credentials; or better yet they cannot teach what is in Scripture without (some credentials outside of the Gifts that God provide). First it was the Pharisees, then Rome, and now it is some of these so called Theologians who love titles that come with seminary training. However, I do not lump all men or women of God who has been blessed with the opportunity to be trained in education of these languages, because there are who understand why God gave them this gift; and uses it to build-up fellow christians in Christ; not as one exalted, but as a humble servant of Christ Jesus.
CB-Scott you are not the latter. In fact you even embarrass the former, because you show us that you have not understood the English, which men such as James White, were blessed by God to work on translating (NASB) for His Church. Indeed there are some rules and even words that could not be adequately conveyed from the Greek that allows us to get a better appreciation and see the teaching of God clearly; however, just because I have been enlighten in such away, I DARE not say a brother or sister cannot find the same enlightenment or GREATER by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Instead of your boast and slander, how about you provide evidence that I ask for of your comment; I am sure we all can read English. Or if you need to use some special rule in the Greek, by all means show us; how about you do that? At least that way we can see warrant to go along with your remarks and slander.
Make no mistake I do not do this for you, but I am simply must be a voice to fellow christians you insult by trying silence them through bully and slander. Moreover, you show contempt for God: First, the word God is not Sufficient. Now, the Word of God cannot be understood without a study biblical languages.
If you are going to accuse someone of esiegesis, you should tell them what you think they are reading into the text. At least that is what I did for you, except I did not label you.
Robert Brooks,
That’s an old game. Now, you are trying to flip this thing and make someone else guilty of that of you are the guilty party.
It was you who made judgmental comments here, not I. It was you who set yourself up here as one of great wisdom and with final authority about the failure of the brothers due to their adherence to a “faulty ecclesiology.”
It was you who superimposed your position upon the Scriptures as an absolute beyond question or debate.
I, and a couple of other guys, simply called your hand and, as is the case with most guys who go to seed in the fertile dirt of tangents, you get defensive when someone points out that what you have really planted is weeds.
Robert, unfortunately you won’t get a whole lot of traction on the subject you mentioned, but I agree with you in light of an important topic raised in this thread already. Having multiple qualified men leading the church is a huge blessing to the church, a extremely important blessing to the men in ministry together, an obedient step forward for any church that reads the NT, and what the Holy Spirit has echoed as a significant working,..because rightly dividing the Word is the key to distributing the gospel of God. The Holy Spirit certainly has instructed the church to follow His lead when men aspire to serve in their local churches.
It is extremely healthy.
The SBC has a very well worn model as described by Todd, codified in the last couple of hundred years, an abbreviated none the less,…and it has contributed to the aspects of loneliness among Pastors as described in this article. The abbreviated model no doubt perpetuates the list of feelings that Todd has expressed here. And, thats not to say that many guys may try to thrive independently….and they do in some circumstances, yet it is not recommended by the Holy Spirit.
Well, I was hoping this would not go down the same ole preverbal rathole….my hopes have been dashed 🙂
The Apostle Paul will continue to echo those wonderful words written to Timothy and his fellow elders about the remedy and some good things relative to the health of the church as they were about the business of aspiring to lead, preach, teach, and encourage one another and the church (certainly applicable to all churches). I would imagine ….that even those guys working together with Timothy were discouraged, struggle, got angry, felt inadequate..I’m pretty much sure of it. Yet, they were instructed to keep on aspiring, keep on qualifying to lead, and keep on serving, encouraging, etc. etc.. That is the beauty of the Holy Spirit at work.
I’m glad Todd was open enough to write this post, so that the bandaid of traditions can once again be pulled off and examined. It appears the wounds do run deep.
So, trying to put this in the context of what Todd has written here. One person summarized what I think Robert may be trying to say (not speaking for Robert, it appears he is willing to make that attempt).
“The biblical question is not; Are all elders pastors?, but instead; Are all elders to pastor? ‘Pastor’ is not an office in the Bible, or in the church, but a gift (a noun) and a charge (a verb). It is a gift that some in the church have and hopefully those who serve in the office of overseer have this gift. But, it is also a charge and a duty that all elders/overseers are to fulfill.”
I believe Robert might be trying to say….that the advantages of following the biblical paradigm as “Elders remain qualified to lead”, the plurality of those men that are qualified can be a great encouragement… which may help stem some of those feelings felt by guys in ministry; that when those thoughts come to actions, may create a lack of joy, resentment, bouts of depression, etc.
Just because the average congregations in the SBC (75 members and thousands upon thousands of those) chose to stop at employing only a single Elder (that does their Pastoring), does not necessarily condemn the SBC system; yet it also does not endorse a tradition/system that may coddle the theory that a church must stop at a single Elder they employ to Pastor the flock.
There is no doubt (although many dispute it) that Paul is encouraging those hearing Timothy’s letter that men should aspire to lead within a qualified group called Elders. Do they all Pastor, no. Do they all lead the singing, no (thats a good thing). But rest assured, all that remain as Elders in any church must do a couple of things… and you guys know what those are.
So there is little doubt, that a group of qualified men (Elders) set out with the purpose to edify the church, and invite other men to aspire to this same service will have struggles….yet, it is without a doubt that it is these men, in the same place (not just on blogs, or another city) that lift and encourage one another in love with the same mission, qualified to lead, ….it is those men that will help satisfy and some of those wayward thoughts of depression, failure, lack of courage, etc. If church Pastors preach against others that need to aspire and lead, he will become or remain a lonely man! And, at the end of his life, have a lot of war stories to tell….those will be his treasure.
Chris Johnson,
I think the comment stream took at least two turns. One dealing with the actual content of the post and the other on ecclesiology.
I think many pastors and prospective pastors have traveled in the same shoes that Todd is now trying on for size. I believe I can make a good argument that the last letter Paul wrote, 2 Timothy, was to deal with the very things Todd related in the life of Timothy.
What Robert Brooks brought into the mix was his theory that “all”of Todd’s concerns have to do with his adherence to a poor and sinful ecclesiology.
His (Robert Brooks) theory that all of Todd’s concerns are due to his poor ecclesiology is wrong and short-sighted, not to mention the fact that he aired (pontificated) his position as he if had had a personal and divine revelation from the ethereal vaults of heaven, making his position infallible.
Chris, we cannot speak in absolute terms about the structure of local churches in the NT. It seems that there was a process in the structure of local churches as the gospel spread to various people groups and cultures within those groups. With that in mind, I think the best comment on this board about this was from Jim Pemberton who stated:
“. . . The beauty of the teachings of the Apostles regarding church government is that what they taught clearly is true for all churches, but what they didn’t teach clearly seems to be optimal for adapting to the needs of churches is different situations.”
Jim Pemberton is right. Some things about the church structure are settled to the point that all NT churches should have no struggle to employ. Others are not so settled and are somewhat open to interpretation. I, for one, thank God that the purpose and mission of a local church reflects perfectly that of the Universal Church, to fulfill the Great Commission.
If we could all come to agreement and execution of that, the world would be a far better place.
cb… wise words. And Jim did put a good bow on it. My attempt to rescue Robert a bit was that his angle has some credence and support for helping young guys (and stubborn older guys) recognize the wisdom and encouragement of other men qualified to lead… and even in the place where that young man serves. Its great to have one strong and humble teacher, but even better to have more (one might get sick, or need to be out one week or a group of weeks). More men should “lift holy hands” to our Lord.
Believe me, being in the SBC for the balance of my ministry life….the tradition of a specific method for organizing is tough on a singular Pastor. My argument has always been…. why focus on that path when there is a much more beneficial way that brings greater edification to the body.
Those singular Pastor models have wreaked havoc on a lot of great preachers and teachers, and have spun men down the paths that Todd has written about in this article, many, many times over.
Chris Johnson,
You stated: “Those singular Pastor models have wreaked havoc on a lot of great preachers and teachers, and have spun men down the paths that Todd has written about in this article, many, many times over.”
Chris, that is true.
However, is it not just as true that inherent in every pastoral model common to Christendom since Christ founded the Church, men, many of whom were/are great preachers and teachers have had havoc wrecked in their lives?
Chris, it seems to me that no matter the pastoral model a church incorporates, there is always the possibility of burn-out in the life/lives of shepherds.
We all have our wilderness experiences. We will have them as long as we dwell in this flesh. However, Christ will, if we allow Him, be with us in the wilderness, and bring us out stronger than when when we entered that wilderness no matter what it is or where it is or if we walked ourselves in it on our own or someone else pushed us into it.
Chris, is it not true that the Holy Spirit “drove” our Lord Jesus into the wilderness wherein He, for 40 days, contended with Satan’s best shots? Yet, and for our sake and, ultimately, for the glory of God, our Lord defeated Satan and came forth from that wilderness proclaiming the Kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe the gospel.
Chris, wildernesses come and wildernesses go in the lives of God’s children, those who are shepherds and those who are among the flocks of God of whom those shepherds are charged to shepherd, but the grace of Christ is sufficient to get us through it one way or another and always for the glory of God.
cb, yes, all those things you have stated are true. And the reason that from biblical encouragement throughout the forming of the churches we see the foundation that a plurality of men is the norm. Now, it is not always required, but there is evidence of why the council of more than one is wise and healthy for the entire and growing church. The Pastor should recognize that benefit as a blessing, because it is. Just having a bunch of guys for the sake of having a bunch of guys is definitely not a blessing. So, it is the model that Paul puts forth that protects the Pastor/s and all members.
” Just having a bunch of guys for the sake of having a bunch of guys is definitely not a blessing.”
Chris Johnson, you will get no argument from me on that. Twelve guys went to recon the Promised Land, but only two of the twelve had the stuff it takes to enter and eat the grapes.
Give me the two grape eaters any day rather than ten who see themselves as grasshoppers.
The line rewritten from the classic Kung Fu western comes to mind: “Grasshopper, you may enter this land when you can remove the grape from my hand.”
I would agree, CB
But I’d add…give me the 2 grape eaters over those who see themselves as the giants …. 😉
cb,…yes sir. Two is a tremendous start. Along with Paul’s encouragement that all men should raise holy hands, and any man that aspires to the office is terrific (as qualified) in the church, because as the word is rightly divided in the church….she matures, and she wreaks less havoc on those young Pastors, ….and old alike.
Ordaining Elders in the church is not a light hearted effort, because they really do some amazing stuff.
“Elders who provide effective leadership must be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. For the scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and, “The worker deserves his pay.” Do not accept an accusation against an elder unless it can be confirmed by two or three witnesses. Those guilty of sin must be rebuked before all, as a warning to the rest. Before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, I solemnly charge you to carry out these commands without prejudice or favoritism of any kind. Do not lay hands on anyone hastily and so identify with the sins of others.”
Paul, through Timothy, made sure that his fellow Elders serving with Timothy were not treated harshly…..because these men were pursuing the kingdom, and pursuing righteousness (Matthew 6:33) on behalf of the churches edification.
Now that is a healthy way to keep the chins up in the church. Paul knew the price of serving and set out some great protections for those dividing the word and receiving the word.
I hope more young Pastors glean some wisdom from Timothy’s first letter and apply it to their churches. I am almost certain some (maybe not all) of the angst outline by Todd could evaporate.
Chris Johnson,
I do share your desire (dream, hope, goal, aspiration, or whatever one may call it). Yet, I do realize that in this flesh, all who ask of the mantle of leadership in a local church, based upon their persuasion that God desires such leadership of them, will suffer hardship. I believe the Scriptures teach such shall the case.
Now, as to the local church and a pastoral model, I want to state my position with you.
I contend the NT teaches a congregational method of governance. I have worked within that model for many years. I know its strengths and its weaknesses. Within the parameters of that model, God has blessed my ministries when serving a local church as pastor in the single elder model. In addition, I have given countless hours to the study of ecclesiology. Of a surety, my goal in doing so was to be able to speak in an absolute manner that the single pastor model was the true biblical model.
However, the more I have learned, the more I have come to realize, I cannot make such an absolute statement. It seems that the early church provides evidence for more than one model of pastoral leadership in the local church. Some local churches had a single shepherd (elder) and it seems obvious that others had multiple shepherds (elders).
One things that pushed my in my search was David Rogers’ mention of the City Church Paradigm in a post or comment he wrote a few years ago.
I have come to this conclusion. I cannot prove to a credible absolute that the single elder method of pastoral leadership is the only NT model.
At the same time, I have come to an equal conclusion that you, Chris Johnson, nor can anyone else, prove to a credible absolute that the multiple elder method of pastoral leadership is the only NT model.
I think and conclude that there is evidence of both in use in NT times.
Therefore, when Robert Brooks stated that the reasons for anguish such as Todd presented in his post were due to the “evils” of the ecclesiology of which he adhered and if he would embrace another model, these feelings of anguish would vanish, I challenged such none sense.
Let me also say that had someone stated to you that if you would abandon a plurality of elders model for the pastoral model of the local church and embrace a single elder model that you would cease to have tribulations as a shepherd in a local church, I would challenge that person with the same diligence.
Chris, I believe it absurd to believe that embracing a specific model of pastoral ministry will eliminate the inherent struggles of shepherding the flock of which God has assigned the man of God. Such struggles are as certain as is the mandate of Scripture that the man of God must proclaim that salvation is by Christ and Christ alone.
No longer do I look with disregard on my brothers in Baptist life who have embraced a shepherding model in the local church that employs the concept of plurality of elders.
At the same time, and be assured, I shall not sit quietly and allow those same brothers to cast aspersions upon the single elder model that has served Baptists well for many, many years. I contend both models have deep roots among the pages of the New Testament.
Unfortunately, this sidestep into ecclesiology is a massive misdiagnoses by men who have no clue about me or my church or whether or not I have qualified men leading with me (I do). All of the feelings and thoughts shared in my post really have nothing to do with any lack of health in my church or its leadership structure.
I’ve been given “advice” and rebuke by men who know nothing of me or my situation, let alone my church’s ecclesiology, and have not done the important first step in counseling a brother.
“He who gives an answer before he hears, It is folly and shame to him.”
Each of the thoughts and feelings in my post are internal — they are mine alone, and they need a gospel remedy — Paul’s words to Timothy in his second epistle are helpful (thanks, CB) as are words of encouragement and pointing brothers to the truths about God and the gospel. As for me, this is an “after the fact” post offered to help others and give voice to others who are unable to express their own struggle. I’ve already worked through these and applied the gospel remedy.
I just pray that pastors who are truly struggling out there find encouraging men like CB and Dave and not the wick-smoldering, reed-breaking counsel that has been offered by some others here.
“Chris Johnson, nor can anyone else, prove to a credible absolute that the multiple elder method of pastoral leadership is the only NT model.” cb, I have not tried to prove such…because it is not necessary. As you have well said, God builds His church. He wrote what he wrote.
I guess I am just a little surprised of how folks get all twisted around the axle when it is pretty obvious that having more men to provide encouragement seems like a pretty good thing. My intention was not to get rolling down the street of ecclesiological musings.
I’ll simply remember to pray for Todd as he considers these changes in ministry. Ministry can be challenging, no doubt about it!
Chris Johnson,
Nor was it my intent “to get rolling down the street of ecclesiological musings.”
I took Robert Brooks to task for making an absurd accusation than an ecclesiastical leadership position was/is the root cause of a brother’s anguish.
My use of your name in my statement was for illustration and nothing more.
I would ride the river most anywhere with you, Chris. I think you to be a solid guy and a man of true faith. I trust there is peace between us.
oh yes cb, we are in lock step. No problem here my friend. I am looking forward to that “ride the river” as well,….or maybe catching a Bama game with you sometime 🙂
And a big ROLL TIDE! to you, my brother. 😉
I am afraid that Robert is not going to be part of our conversation here much anymore.
We have conversations here, not dictates from on high.
It seems to me that we’re given a lot more detail about the character and attitudes that ought to characterize leadership (and membership, for that matter) in the church than about authority structure. I can’t see that as an accident.
While Jesus isn’t silent about structure (including, almost scarily, Mat 23:1-3, which commands obedience to those who have ‘seated themselves’ in a position of authority, while also commanding the refusal to take their example as authoritative(I have trouble seeing the scribes and Pharisees taking the latter as respectful of themselves. This seems to validate a ‘respect the position, but not necessarily the person’ approach)), he seems to have often turned an authority structure discussion (often of the ‘please put me high in the hierarchy’ type from the disciples and their families) into a ‘with what attitude should authority be exercised?’ discussion – the greatest among you shall be your servant, etc. Paul gives us extensive lists of character attributes that those in authority should exemplify. I can’t help but see Phil 2:5-6 as fitting here, also – like Jesus, those in authority shouldn’t regard their positions, and their perks as something to be grasped. We’re told that those in positions of authority should not ‘lord it over’ those given into their care. And I don’t think I’ve touched on everything on this here.
Given the above, I can’t help but conclude that Dave is right: “God’s people walking in spiritual humility and in the fullness of the Spirit is far more important than structure.”. A church where the structure is right, but those in authority don’t exercise their authority in the servant-like, humble attitude commanded by scripture is going to be much more of a train wreck than one where the structure is off, but those who are in authority *do* exemplify those attitudes. It seems to be human nature to think that getting the structure right is the most important thing, but I can’t see that supported in scripture.
“A church where the structure is right, but those in authority don’t exercise their authority in the servant-like, humble attitude commanded by scripture is going to be much more of a train wreck than one where the structure is off, but those who are in authority *do* exemplify those attitudes.”
Ben Coleman,
I think you make a most excellent observation.
Yes, that is implied in the aspiring. Structure is not the savior or balm. Men aspiring and like minded according to the scripture is a powerful encouragement within the congregation.