THE SBC AND RACIAL UNITY:
DO FLOYD, MOORE AND LAND REPRESENT A SEA CHANGE?
BY WILLIAM DWIGHT MCKISSIC, SR.
Jesus taught His disciples to pray that God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven. The apostle John described a picture in heaven of every racial, ethnic, and language group praising God together in unity. If heaven is a picture of racial unity and tranquility, shouldn’t—at least among God’s kingdom citizens on earth—there should be a demonstration of racial unity and peace? The Psalmist said, “Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity” (Psalm 133:1).
The Southern Baptist Convention, founded in 1845 in Augusta, GA, is renowned for being the largest protestant denomination and the most impactful and influential evangelistic, missionary, disciple-making ministry and kingdom-driven enterprise in the history of world Christianity. The SBC is also renowned for practicing and even preaching racism throughout the majority of her history. Thankfully, the SBC is making serious progress toward reversing the negative aspect of her legacy.
In a 1951 press release, ”Looking Back: Southern Baptist seminaries desegregated before desegregation,” the SBC proudly announced that the SBC seminaries were opening their doors to “carefully selected Negroes”—not even realizing that that phraseology—“carefully selected Negroes”—reeks with racism. In 1995 the SBC gave a formal apology to America and African Americans for her racist practices and positions. A demonstration of genuine fruit of repentance related to race in the SBC certainly moved in the right direction with the election of Pastor Fred Luter as President in 2012, but a continued all-White executive cabinet level entity heads since 1995, still leaves the question in suspense—has the SBC genuinely turned the corner racially?
There are Southern Baptists who have expressed insensitive and myopic remarks with racial overtones, against the back drop of the Ferguson and Staten Island (Eric Garner) fiascos. Pastor J.D. Hall stated in response to the Ferguson protestors:
“The evangelical message needs to be, ‘We understand you have grievances. We understand you feel you’ve been wronged. Let’s discuss that, but first go home, tuck your kids in, and go to bed early so you can get up in the morning and be a productive citizen. Then, let’s talk.’”
Pastor Randy White stated in response to Professor Matthew Hall of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary statement in support of racial reconciliation being a gospel demand.
“Is racial reconciliation a ‘Gospel demand?’ Certainly not.”
(- See more at: http://www.randywhiteministries.org/2014/11/29/racial-equality-gospel-demand/#sthash.UnLrVJV1.dpuf)
However, recently The Lifeway Research Survey findings confirm that “Racial Reconciliation is mandated by the Gospel,” according to 90% of Protestant pastors surveyed.
Pastor and Professor Kevin Stilley labeled the response to Russell Moore’s expressing anguish and pain over the Eric Garner decision, “An Incendiary Statement”:
“Russell Moore, President of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Commission tweeted the following comment shortly after a Staten Island grand jury decided not to indict a New York police officer in the death of Eric Garner.
And then the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention issued a press release in which Moore wrote:
“I’m stunned speechless by this news. We hear a lot about the rule of law—and rightly so. But a government that can choke a man to death on video for selling cigarettes is not a government living up to a biblical definition of justice or any recognizable definition of justice. We may not agree in this country on every particular case and situation, but it’s high time we start listening to our African American brothers and sisters in this country when they tell us they are experiencing a problem.”
I thought these communications to be ill advised and tweeted this response,
…There are four reasons why I believe the comments of Russell Moore and the ERLC were inappropriate and incendiary.
1. The comments of Moore were emotionally charged reactions, not well reasoned responses. The ERLC consistently states that it is its desire to show churches how they should respond in the midst of difficult cultural crises. Well, do we really want our churches and pastors out there emoting in the public sphere in a manner inconsistent with James 1:19-20?”
Kevin Stilley violated the unwritten policy of SBC employees to not publicly criticize SBC entities and entity heads. I was publically reprimanded by SWBTS for violating this unwritten policy; but not Professor Stilley? Go Figure! And to label Russell Moore’s response to the Staten Island verdict (Eric Garner) as an “Incendiary,” emotional,” “ill advised,” and not well reasoned” are subjective and judgmental. Furthermore, it completely ignores the fact that Russell Moore would not be sitting in his seat if his history was given to incendiary, ill advised, not-well-reasoned and emotional commentary. If Kevin Stilley had agreed with Russell Moore’s statement, he would not have described Russell Moore’s response with those words. I’ve discovered in SBC life when one cannot refute your arguments with facts they tend to dismiss it as emotional.
The J.D. Hall, Randy White and Kevin Stilley responses—based on history—are responses that one would expect from the SBC.
Then comes the current SBC President Ronnie Floyd, Richard Land (the former President of the SBC ERLC), Russell Moore and Ed Stetzer, all making public statements that, quite frankly, are non-typical of SBC personalities with regard to racial issues.
The Baptist Press reports these comments from President Ronnie Floyd:
“’The time is now for us to rise up together and cry out against the racism that still exists in our nation and our churches, and the subsequent injustices,” Floyd wrote. “We are grieved that racism and injustice still abound in our nation in 2014. All human beings are created by God and in His image. The dignity of each individual needs to be recognized and appreciated by each of us and by all of the 50,000 churches and congregations that comprise the Southern Baptist Convention.’”
“Floyd referenced 1 Corinthians 12:26 in calling for Southern Baptists to understand and work to alleviate the pain of racism and injustice within the body of Christ.”
“’With heavy hearts, we recognize the deep pain and hurt that has come to many of our African American brothers and sisters. The recent events in America have reawakened many of their greatest fears. Their wounds from the past run deep,” Floyd wrote. “Without relationships and conversations, we will never understand one another. Because you hurt, we hurt with you today. We are a part of the same body of Christ, His church, which is to be a picture of the multi-faceted wisdom of God.’”
The first SBC president that I ever heard prophetically and redemptively address a public controversial issue with racial overtones was Dr. Fred Luter when he addressed the Trayvon Martin saga. As I listened to Dr. Luter’s commentary concerning Trayvon Martin, it brought tears to my eyes. That was the first time I ever heard a SBC president address the pain of our reality with a view toward healing. Dr. Ronnie Floyd now becomes the second SBC president that I’ve heard address a controversial issue related to race identifying with our suffering and seeking solutions through the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am deeply encouraged by Dr. Floyd’s commentary, rooted in the biblical language of 1 Corinthians 12:26.
Richard Land stated:
“America’s problem with race goes back to our beginnings. From our first encounters as Europeans with Native-Americans in Virginia and New England, race has been the serpent in the garden. For all of her greatness, America’s treatment of non-whites has been an ongoing tale of prejudice, abuse, and malign neglect.
Unfortunately, the Nobel Laureate William Faulkner was right when he observed, “The past is never dead. It’s not even past.” There are always the ghosts of the racist past among us, coloring how we perceive the present. Our present is always informed and tinted by our past experiences. Consequently, while most white Americans were dismissive of theories that the police framed O. J. Simpson, many African-Americans, based on their past experiences, found such accusations far too believable.
Once again, in the wake of Ferguson and Staten Island, people default to their past experiences. Like most Anglos, I must confess I have never had a negative experience with a police officer, white, brown, or black. I know few African-Americans, however, who have not had truly bad experiences with the police or know someone well who has.
The only way to truly bridge this divide, heal this rift, and move forward is for Christians, twice-born men and women, to come forward and take the lead in the immediate formation of ethnically diverse coalitions where people can tell each other their stories and begin to exorcise the ghosts of the past together.
Ultimately, we must seek to get out of our comfort zones and strive with intentionality to form truly multi-ethnic, multi-class churches where people of differing ethnicities and socio-economic backgrounds worship together and minister to one another as equal members of the local body of Christ. Then we will hear and know each other’s stories, and we will put faces we know on racial and economic injustice. Such churches will truly transform our culture.”
I am really proud of Richard Land; this is the Richard Land we all thought we knew. Truth be told, Richard Land laid the foundation for the SBC ’95 repentance statement and all the positive changes we are beginning to see racially in the SBC. His statement above is perhaps the most powerful and persuasive statement yet made by a SBC personality on this subject.
Russell Moore stated:
“The mood in Ferguson, Missouri, is tense, after a grand jury decided against indicting a police officer for the killing of unarmed African-American teenager Michael Brown. The tension ought to remind us, as the church, that we are living in a time in which racial division is hardly behind us. That reality ought to motivate us as citizens to work for justice, but also as the church to seek to embody the kingdom of Christ.”
The combined statements of Floyd, Land, Moore and Stetzer represent a sea change for Southern Baptists. Their statements are more powerful to me than the ’95 repentance statements or the election of Fred Luter. The ’95 statements and the election of Fred Luter were no-brainers, and simply the right and expedient thing to do. There was absolutely nothing to risk in either decision…only something to gain.
However, the statements made by Floyd, Moore, Land and Stetzer are indicative of courage, character, consistency with the ’95 statement, and respect and sensitivity to people of color within the SBC. I know for certain that there are many in the SBC sorely displeased with the published positions of the aforementioned SBC personalities with regard to acknowledging the pain and legitimacy of the concerns that African Americans have related to Ferguson, Staten Island, Cleveland and elsewhere.
These brothers represent a sea change in SBC life. They are willing to stand in solidarity with the suffering of African Americans over these issues. I respect their right not to declare guilt or innocence of any of the parties involved in the incidents that have given rise to the controversies. But I deeply appreciate their break with SBC tradition to identify with the pain and suffering and to acknowledge the racial injustices and inequities of the past and present.
May God bless the SBC! May she continue toward this path of racial healing! May she march on toward the inclusion and empowerment of people of color serving at the entity head level! When that occurs, the sea change will be complete.
Dr. Dwight Well stated state of the situation in our present day. You are a prolific writer and a tremendous analytical thinker. The issue is difficult. Sometime I feel we are making progress and then at other times I am not so sure. I join the ranks of those who are terribly frustrated. Being a sequential thinker let me be so bold as to make some comments (1) Many tend to do what you have done and what I tend to do i.e. talk about what SBC leaders are saying or doing. While that is relevant Dr. Dwight, the situation… Read more »
“The SBC is also renowned for practicing and even preaching racism throughout the majority of her history.” I grew up in the South and a Southern Baptist church in the 1950s-1960s when racial tensions were at their peak prior to the civil rights movement. At least in the corner of the South in which I lived, the SBC was not actively practicing/preaching racism in pulpit or pew. “Pastor J.D. Hall stated in response to the Ferguson protestors …” Anything this pastor says should not be viewed as part of the SBC mainstream. His remarks on most issues tend to be… Read more »
Max
Amen!
“I grew up in the South and a Southern Baptist church in the 1950s-1960s when racial tensions were at their peak prior to the civil rights movement. At least in the corner of the South in which I lived, the SBC was not actively practicing/preaching racism in pulpit or pew.” I grew up in the South in SBC churches in the 1980s and 90s and I heard it then. From pulpit and pew. In Mississippi. I can document the virulent racism proclaimed by SBC leaders and prominent pastors in the 1950s until eyes bleed, if you like. It was everywhere… Read more »
I heard it in Mississippi and Alabama churches in the 21st century. Racism continues to be alive and well, unfortunately.
Chris or anybody
Would anyone be willing to name a racist pastor? Does anyone know how many racist pastors exist in the SBC today? Would anyone be willing to name a well know racist pastor in the SBC today? Does anyone know how many racist SBC pastors exist in Montana today?
And, to piggyback on what DL just said, does anyone know of any racist, SBC Pastors in TN, today? And, if so, please name them.
David
I know some who say some things that make me cringe. Maybe not racist, but horribly insensitive.
Dave
I do not doubt that at all. However the question for me is, it a racist remark or just poor people skills. I have a pastor friend/acquaintance that can make me mad talking about the color of grass. As Grandpa said “some people have just had no fetchings up”.
Alan or anybody with such knowledge
SBC leaders during my time: Porter Ruth, Bennett, Page, Tanner, Cauthan, Parks,Rankin, Elliff, Platt, Rutledge (and those since). Exec Committee CEO, IMB, NAMB
Were any of these opposed to racial reconciliation
Alan and Max could both be right. In Arkansas, if you went to church with Brooks Hays you probably heard something different than you did if you went to church with Benjamin Bogard.
My guess is that in Arkansas (or anywhere else for that matter) one could hear a SB preacher say most anything. Would not the question be how prevalent is it? One racist pastor does not a racist convention make. One racial recon pastor does not a racial recon convention make.
“I can document the virulent racism proclaimed by SBC leaders and prominent pastors in the 1950s until eyes bleed, if you like. It was everywhere and was accepted and celebrated. A really good book to read is by Wayne Flynt entitled Alabama Baptists.” Lots of PAST TENSE in that statement. Just, sayin’. I do not think it is the case that those abominations are true today….are there OUTLIERS – you bet – but I refuse to believe without evidence that we are still living in any semblance of the 1950’s or even the 1970’s today with regard to “accepted” racism… Read more »
No one says we are. People are acting like the SBC has not been overtly racist, however. It all ended abruptly from national leaders in 1968, by the way. That is when W.A. Criswell repented, opened the doors of FBC Dallas, and said, “never have I been so blind.” The SBC also adopted a pretty substantial resolution on race in 1968 – long before the 1995 resolution. Criswell was elected president, the SBC repented on racism, and everyone tried to move on. 1968. Everyone public and national repented then. You will not find what you are looking for from national… Read more »
My purpose here was not to say that overt racism is still prominent in SBC life. The thing that lies beneath racism is that we want our lives to be protected and we want to have our own personal preferences met. In the past it looked like racism. Now, that underlying desire that once manifested racially might take other forms, but the result is that we stay racially divided. I do not think that having preferences for certain types of music is a form of racism at all – but when we let those preferences dictate who we worship with,… Read more »
Dr. Dwight While I am on a roll running my mouth let me give an illustration. I pastored a church in west central St. Louis a mid city area. It was historically an all white little hamlet. The neighborhood began to change as the Black community became numerically stronger. At that same time as change was occurring the church called a pastor who led the church to adopt an aggressive outreach program, of house to house visitation. This would be the early 70’s. The question of race came up on the planning meetings. The Godly pastor led the church to… Read more »
I’ve been wanting to write a post addressing some of the whining I’ve heard from those who think we don’t need to pursue racial reconciliation and that Moore et al are off base. Some have complained “how many times do we have to apologize before it’s enough?” That is, in my opinion, a dodge. It’s not about apologizing again and again for our past sins as a denomination. It’s about recognizing that our past sins as a nation and a denomination have created a place in which there are inequities and in which people are still treated differently because of… Read more »
Dave At face value I agree totally. For me the situation is not “what have we done” but “what are we going to do”. The man without work because of skin color needs a job. He does not need a history lesson on the sins of the SBC. Let’s do those practical things that we can do and get that man a job. Maybe those of us with paychecks can talk about the past, write a blog, make a speech, or be philosophical because we can feed our families and pay the rent. Not the man out of work. He… Read more »
Talking about the past is not some luxury of the rich and privileged. We do not live in a vacuum. Context matters. Racial division emanates from the past. The fact that an inordinate amount of Southern Baptists get defensive and feel guilty every time the past is brought up makes no sense to me. Did you do it personally? If not, then why feel guilty? If we bring up the past so that we can better see the present and the future, then it has value. That is the real purpose of studying history. If we bring it up just… Read more »
Alan Context is important. You need to stay in context with what I said. I never said the past is not important. History is impotent. I majored in History and have advanced studies in History. Alan, no I am not defensive nor do I feel guilty about what my great grandfather did. I am a realist and very practical. We have studied ,made speeches, passed resolutions, apologized, written blogs, held seminars for as long as I can remember and that is a long time. Yet not enough has happened. My point is simple: IT IS TIME TO DO SOMETHING BESIDE… Read more »
Actually, DL, there has not been much at all written about what went wrong, comparatively. I know this because before I wrote my book, I spent about a year researching and looking for everything that I could find on the topic. There have been calls for unity and against racism. There have been histories written. But, there was not an investigation from the inside by a white evangelical pastor from the South regarding what actually went wrong. None that I could find recently, anyway. And, I asked several SBC leaders if they knew of anything prominent. No one could think… Read more »
Anyway, I said all of that to say that a lot of people ARE working hard to make things right. We need to keep going, but talking is not he enemy of doing. Not necessarily.
Alan I do not disagree with you. All I am asking is does the man who has no job because of his race really care what went wrong in the SBC. I think he would rather have a job. I say work to give him one. Like you I have been at this a long time. I have pastored in three racially mixed neighborhoods in major eastern cities. In the 60’s I have been in the streets with signs etc. No one in the street with me asked me how my convention went wrong. They did ask what I could… Read more »
BTW hopefully more Calvinism is several days away 🙂
My forebears didn’t own slaves and fought on the side of abolition.
Speak for yourself.
To what end, Dave? Admitting, realizing, repenting, apologizing – all that has been done already – many times – not everyone who disagrees with Moore, Alan Cross or you on the “cultural process of reconciliation” are opposed to the principle. In my view, there comes a time when repeating and beating that drum becomes a self perpetuating and I actually think we are nearing that point. It’s even getting to the point to where I am tired of talking about it – and for me to get tired of talking is no small feat! Since when do the big dogs… Read more »
Tarheel
Extremely well said, my brother.
Perhaps this is a good time to beat my favorite drum. Racial reconciliation and equality will not be won by the entity heads, popular conference speaker, book writers, blog debates, panels with the “leading” intellectuals, thinkers, philosophers, writers etc. It will happen when Pastor Bob, Preacher Charlie, Rev. Smith, and Dr. Jones, each lead their local congregations to embrace the urgency of the situation and doing all they can in their local communities to bring equality…and that is as it should be. It is time to stop looking to the Convention to do what the local blood bought church has… Read more »
When the leadership of EVERY SBC entity is still lily white, when electing a minority to office is a rarity, when blacks and whites are treated differently in the justice system – there is work to do.
lets set quota’s then.
Let’s fire some entity leadership and hire minorities.
Who will be the first “lilly white” convention officer to step down so his job can be filled with a minority ?
That is a typical, unhelpful overreaction. But, we need to stop pretending we care about racial reconciliation until we include black people and other ethnics in the halls of power in the SBC. And we have to be will to change our ways to accomodate viewpoints and ways of thinking different than our own. We can’t tell the black community that they are welcome among us if they adopt our ways, think our thoughts, see thing our way and make no waves. It will take some compromise on all sides, but mostly on our side. We’ve held ALL the power… Read more »
Tarheel said,
“lets set quota’s then.”
Yes. Let’s.
Southern Baptists are absolutely in love with quotas. Why not have them for racial minorities as well? Seems appropriate, given our past.
Maybe floating that out there and seeing who would is actually a helpful overreaction. We’ve had 19 years of measured, calm reactions to the 95 statement. 60 years of reaction to Dr. King. 150 years of reaction to the Civil War. At some point, we are going to have to actually do something, even if it’s irritating to some. Calling for someone in leadership to step aside in place of a not-white guy would be a start. Or trustee board members to do so…or something. Otherwise, we’ll have the same 9 white guys running things for several more years. How… Read more »
“Halls of power” It is obvious that many of you hold denominational workers in higher esteem than I. It is equally obvious that many of you yield more power to them than I. It is equally obvious that many of you grant them more prestige than I. Except for the salaries and travel benefits I see no big deal in being in one of these jobs. Don’t read too much in this. I am not down on denominational workers in any way. I just do not see what all the “whatever” is about. It seems to me that racial reconciliation… Read more »
Dave miller,
“…And we have to be will to change our ways to accomodate viewpoints and ways of thinking different than our own.”
Sure, that’s noble of you ….Except you don’t mean accommodating ways of thinking that are different than yours, of course.
“Yes. Let’s”
OK – Let’s see if Moore will resign to make room for a black appointee. Or perhaps the SBC should formally promise to appoint a black to the next open entity head spot.
Shame is though…that person (and everyone else) will always know why they got the job – skin color.
Sorry if I don’t see how that’s helpful. In fact it’s discriminatory and racist.
Actually, Dave, that’s the point.
Am I in favor of tolerating racist thought in the SBC? No, of course not. Any more than we ought to tolerate liberalism or any other form of evil.
My point is that we cannot tell black people that they are welcome in the SBC if they fall in line with white American culture – think our way, act our way.
We have to drop a lot of our cultural junk.
That old dodge has completely lost its helpfulness. Any time someone suggests we include black people in leadership, the old tired arguments against affirmative action are brought out. “If they only got the job because of their skin color, that is racist and discriminatory.” Is the assumption that there is always a white person more qualified than a black? Do we have to fire a MORE qualified white to DONATE a position to a black man? Nonsense. We need to work – slowly (maybe not so slowly) but surely – to include Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Native Americans, whatever, in the… Read more »
That’s the trouble with a colorblind approach. It always ends up looking white. It sounds very logical, but when white people set the criteria, write the job descriptions, conduct the searches and the interviews from a pool of mostly white candidates, and place zero value on the different perspective and experience of someone from a different race what you end up with is white. If an organization is serious about diversity, it has to be deliberate.
Dave
You have a salient point
The operative phrase here is “work to do”. It is time to work, not rehash the same old conversation.
and all God’s people screamed “AMEN”!
So, with all of the capable candidates available for such jobs, why do the entities continue to hire white guys? Sorry, but all the posturing in the world isn’t going to cure an ill while our entities are still bound to cronyism and the good ol’ boy approach. They will only hire those who are well-placed, well-known, and….wait for it……..connected to Louisville.
Tarheel, Quotas are a great idea. You said, “Shame is though…that person (and everyone else) will always know why they got the job – skin color.” How is that any different from how almost anyone gets jobs/appointments in SBC leadership? Except for the white guys, it is all about who you know. Please don’t tell me that it is talent or brilliance or expertise. It is about who people know and how well they are connected and their place in the machine, what seminary they are connected with, and, of course, the size of their platform – name recognition. It… Read more »
Well, at least you’re now honest enough to admit you want quotas. In previous discussions you’ve denied that.
I agree with you on the who you know thing and the rotating speaker circuit…
As for the 1/3 arrangements – thats a qualifications standard not based on race or ethnicity – so it’s completely different – what you’re suggesting is that people be chosen or not chosen based solely on skin color/ethnicity – that’s not only unhelpful – but it’s a repackaged version of what you (and I) so deplore – decisions based on skin color/ethnicity.
Tarheel, I changed my mind on the issue back in September. I am not a fan of quotas – never have been. So, when I said that I didn’t want that before, I was being honest and sincere. My view changed when I went to the EC Trustee meeting in September in Nashville and I was going over the SBC Bylaws on how trustees were chosen with EC leadership. That is where I first really understood the 1/3-1/3 arrangement in our Bylaws and it occurred to me that if we ALREADY have quotas and if they are such a big… Read more »
Dale
Exactly! It is not a question of race it is a question of who you are and who you know. It has always been that way. I am white and i will never land “that kind” of job because I am nobody and I know no one.
Nearly every leader of the CR received a high ranking job or elected as Pres of the convention. Now as you say the relationship to Southern is the in thing.
SBC leadership has nothing to do with race and everything to do with….well your word is good..”cronyism”.
Tarheel,
And everybody said AMEN (or should have)… especially that last paragraph.
Tarheel,
Help me to understand. So you support the one-third existing lay-preacher quota system…but you don’t support a racial quota system in order to insure inclusion and empowerment of minorities in the SBC system?
I did not say I supported the 1/3 rules – I said it’s not the same as choosing or not choosing someone because of thier skin color or ethnicity.
Tarheel,
Do u support the one-third rule? And do you recognize that if the SBC finds that acceptable-then, it would be less than consistent and bordering on hypocrisy to deny doing it to achieve the racial equality & balance that they claim that they want.
Well, the 1/3 system is a quota system that is based largely on who knows who and prior relationships formed through previously existing social networks. When those social networks are all white, the system perpetuates itself even if people do not personally agree that 82 of 83 EC trustees (to use one example) should be white. That is an example of how “systems” work to perpetuate the status quo. I am not saying that it is an injustice or anything (as I don’t think that EC trustee membership is a huge deal), but I DO think that the SBC would… Read more »
I am ambivalent toward the 1/3 rule.
To me it’s like a church requiring a certain degree for pastoral positions – it’s up to them to set requirements/qualification standards, within the confines of scripture of course, and I don’t care what churches require in that regard.
I would however object to a church or denominational entity choosing or not choosing someone based on skin color/ethnicity.
The 1/3 rule exists for a reason. The SBC believes that it is important to have representation in its governance from lay people so that the concerns of lay people are represented and so that everything is not run only by the preachers. Whether we like it or not, it is there for a reason and that reason has to do with certain groups being represented. I do not LIKE that we have been historically divided according to race. I do not believe that it is biblical to be so. While I think that ethnicity and cultural diversity is a… Read more »
Alan
Dec 19 12:14 is spot on. Changing that situation will take deliberate and intentional action. I am not sure what that is. I do not favor quotas, but in the need to go forward that might be the only solution. It would be difficult at first but as time goes on and the quotas become the status quo it would be much less negative.
Alan, “I do not see racial quotas in the current environment as something artificial, as long as the person is otherwise qualified.” There is the rub. If an artificial quota is set that will ALWAYS be a question. No matter qualifications. And it taints the qualified with the stink of preference. Case in point – Clearance Thomas. Here is what he wrote in his autobiography “My Grandfathers Son” after detailing how so many people with whom he was seeking employment in his years right after college viewed him as “the affirmative action Yale Law School graduate”: “Now I knew what… Read more »
Dave, I think you make a good point. The issue really isn’t “past racist whatever.” That is the past, clearly the past, will always be in the past and most of us were not there. The problem is with the present and the fact that as I read these threads most everyone has an entrenched view and opinion of any present event. For some if any event involves a black person and a white person either the white or black person is wrong by default. Facts of the matter rarely seem to apply. I don’t think the facts of the… Read more »
Dwight,
Racism is wrong. I love you, Brother.
I hope you were not implying that Randy White and Kevin Stilley are racists. Were you?
David
David W.,
My brother from another mother, I used the terms “insensitive,” and “myopic,” to describe Stilley and Randy White. I did not use the term racist. Don’t know either one personally. I hope to schedule coffee with Stilley soon. Recently discovered that we both pastor in Tarrant County Texas. Since I don’t know them, I have no basis by which I could call them racist. Therefore, I won’t. There published writings on this subject are insensitive and myopic, particularly, Randy White’s. Hope I answered your question.
I know both Randy White and Kevin Stilley. I count both as friends. I 100% support the idea that you would pursue that cup of coffee with Kevin. I also count Russell Moore, Ronnie Floyd, and Richard Land as friends. I support their approach. I disagree with what Randy and Kevin have written. But they are not racists, either of them. I don’t even think they have criticized Moore for the same reasons. Randy, from what I’ve seen and from what I surmise, differs with Russell over some questions of eschatology and the Jewish people and has developed a sense… Read more »
I grew up in Texas (part of the South) and I never heard racism from the pulpit. Never heard anything about race from the pulpit, maybe that was covert racism. I did hear it from ‘Christians.’ But as I said to my small racially diverse church recently*, we have to understand that to many people, they look at each case, trust the process and don’t understand what all the fuss in Ferguson is all about. To others, who have lived all their lives in Ferguson like situations, this is just another example of, if not out and out racism, at… Read more »
To move this conversation to another dimension part of what we must do is to separate the racial issues from the gay agenda debate. In our area those are being tied together in such a way that if one wants to support equality amongst the races, he is forced to extend that to the gay community. This is going to greatly hinder advancement in racial reconciliation. I realize I am stating the obvious but I thought this should be put on the table.
Good and important point, DL.
Gay “rights” are not civil rights. As Abraham Lincoln once said re: slavery rights “You do not have the right to do wrong.”
Max
I agree and that is the point. Just recently in our town council an action was taken that tied racial considerations to a gay right’s action thus lumping them all together. It was stated such that if one opposed so call “gay rights” he was seen to oppose racial equality. Those who opposed the gender action were call racists because of this lumping together. We got this worked out, but it is a tactic of the gay front to confuse the issue.
Gay pride parades and civil rights marches are two totally different portraits of America.
Max
Absolutely! My concern is that it stays that way. My point is that the left is seeing it as the same.
I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me, or neither.
D.L.,
Brother, I am completely in agreement with you. The liberal mind has confused the sin of homosexuality with the right of the racially oppressed. The left is stretching the boundary on civil rights by moving the tent pegs where they should not be.
Max
Very well stated
That is exactly why we have to be clear and get this straightened out. We have not been clear and we continue to seek to protect our own way of life, even if it is just through making decisions that benefit us.
DL’s comment was on target. It is instructive for the local churches to correct their prejudices in their own pews, and in their own communities,…and work out from there. Frankly, a governmental system like the SBC will always be late to the game, because it is always reactionary anyway. It is unfortunate that the history of the SBC littered with prejudice in its records, but if you camp there you will not get much done. Prejudice is not owned by the white man,…especially from where I was raised. We had two black families in our city of 5000 in West… Read more »
Is racism dead in the SBC? 10 years ago, I interviewed with a Pulpit Committee in the Norfolk, VA area. They were a declining all-white church in a neighborhood that had once been all-white, but was now mostly African-American. We left with mixed feelings; they seemed to want to reach their community, and were proud of working in a pantry with an African-American church, and of having the white half of two or three racially mixed couples, but I did not feel the Spirit’s leadership there. While their offerings were barely paying the bills, someone had left the church enough… Read more »
“I did not feel the Spirit’s leadership there.”
Your last paragraph confirmed that.
“Is racism dead in the SBC?”
Not in that man’s life. As committee chairman, he must have been a big dog in the church … but small in the eyes of God. He is a spiritually-lifeless man who will realize just how desperate things are come judgment day.
That kind of thing is more common than we want to admit, I’m afraid.
John I do not like that man’s attitude or what he stands for. I agree with Max he has a surprise on Judgement day. However that one experience does not mean that racism is alive and well in the SBC. My experience was the opposite. The church I pastored in St. Louis and then in Florida were both adamant about reaching the Black (and Asian) community. Does that men the racism is dead in the SBC? No. It simply means that churches are different and as pastors it is our responsibility to change bad racial attitudes. Bottom line a man… Read more »
“Christian racist” is an oxymoron … even considering the morons in our churches.
Dwight,
Thanks so much for acknowledging Richard Land alongside the others. I support Floyd, Moore, and Land. I’m thankful for their leadership on these questions.
Dwight, I also appreciate the article. I had to read it several times to finally see the final point you make, and If I’m hearing you correctly, the guys and gals that “get it” are the ones that will strive to have color where color is different. What I mean… is that you seem to put a high priority on the effort of inclusion of different color, not only skin, but culture (social and economic). Even though I think you may have taken a bit of liberty with Mr. White on the “gospel demand” subject, since all he was trying… Read more »
1. There are always going to be racists of some stripe 2. That does NOT make racism ok. Paul says in Acts 17, that God made us all of one blood thus we are all in the image of God 3. I have been very concerned for 30 yrs about the “lily whiteness” of SBC leadership. I like most of you am totally floored by it. 4. I do not trust some of the leadership. Yes, I am questioning there motives here 5. Go back to #1. The black/ white experience in America is vastly different. 6. The “black community”… Read more »
Bill, very good points IMHO.
Especially #6, where the gospel of God is needed by both the black and white congregations. It is in the process of being hijacked (again), and all churches need to be made ready to withstand those evil forces. Many churches are duped, many good meaning Pastors are aligning with the those that preach another gospel. Buyer beware.
Bill
Number 7 “what to discuss”….It seems to me the discussion is (1) How to get more ethnic representation on SBC life (2) How to make reconciliation a reality.
No one here is defending racism. It is sin, on that we all agree.
Bill
Re. number 6. I assume that is a generic statement, with which I agree. Every man needs the gospel. However the gospel being preached to the Black community is hardly dependent on the white church or convention. Some of the greatest gospel preachers I have heard are Black. Some of the most evangelistic churches that I know are Black. The Black community of preachers is doing a great job of getting the gospel to the world.
Amen Chris!! I will never stand with Jesse J and Al Sharpton, but I can, have done so, and will with others who are against racism. Again, there will always be “racism” and there is nothing that we can do to totally eliminate it, but we are still called to stand against it. If that makes me a “racist” then so be it, but I believe that I can demonstrate otherwise. BTW, “racism” is found in every culture not just America. Finally, why is Ronnie and the others so recently concerned about this issue? He and others have been in… Read more »
Bill, the reason for “now” is politics. Politics in and of itself is not a bad thing. Some of these political guys enter “now” because they believe “they” might become irrelevant…thats not so good.
But, there is a bigger issue. It is the “what, why and how” that are important! We should be about defining the “what” of the Gospel before the other guys print their marketing material. The fields are white unto harvest…. I’ve been told.
Chris, Could the “now” be a part of the leading of the Holy Spirit, and the national conversation that’s taking place that the SBC needs to weigh in on? The SBC was either silent or supportive & cooperative with the opponents of the Civil Rights Movement. There are multiple thousands, perhaps millions of Black Baptists & others who recall the SBC silence or complicity with the opponents of segregation. That remains a sore spot & sticking point with many people. Perhaps Floyd & others are speaking out so that the current young adult minority population won’t be able to say… Read more »
Dwight, that gun looked real – tge cops had NO WAY of knowing otherwise – the young man removed the Orange plastic indicators of it not being real – he was pointing a gun at people – he reached for it when the police came up and ordered him not to move – cops (no matter thier skin color, nor that of the suspect) should never be expected to take that risk. You think they shoukd wait till they are actually fired upon before dealing with a threat? If that becomes policy – we are gonna have lots and lots… Read more »
Tarheel,
You are really justifying shooting a 12 yr old with a toy gun because of the factors that you mentioned? That was poor judgement, a lack of restraint, and you will never convince me that the trigger would have been pulled within 2 seconds on a 12 yr old White kid.
I agree.
Dr. Dwight
I am not Tarheel, he can speak for himself.
I would never try to convince you of anything that is contrary to what you hold by principle. At the same time I would exercise my option to respectively say I think you are wrong. The reason I jumped in at this point is to say, again respectively, that that type of statement only leads to a counter non defendable statement and on and on and……That does not advance the discussion in a positive way hence a solution if move farther away.
We all probably approach these discussion from our own experience and perspective. From my experience, being a teenager in the early 60’s in the Wellston area of St. Louis was that the police in 5th district did not care what color you were. If you crossed the line you paid a price. I am white, I crossed the line in 5th district, I wished I had not. They did not see color they saw a “punk”.
Dwight, The root causes for all of these things you bring up have certain origins, and not all are based upon racist intentions. Some may be, and I am involved in getting that type of racism erased in the urban community. The Holy Spirit helps us understand how to bring glory to God. If that means finally speaking up, that’s a good thing. There is a bigger issue at play here though,….that is recognizing the Gospel,…and the Holy Spirit does make sure we have a clear understanding of that power, for all born again members of those numerous churches around… Read more »
Bro. Dwight, The situation with the 12yr old in the park is tragic, and you know I try to empathize with the black community over these situations, but I honestly believe race isn’t at play in that situation. I can say from experience that these guns are made to look exactly like the real thing. Additionally the orange tip that is put there by the manufacturer to distinguish it from a lethal weapon had been removed. If you watch the video before the shooting, the young man was brandishing the weapon in a very threatening manner. When someone reaches for… Read more »
Bill Mac, Headed to an appointment. May not be available for a couple of ours. But, my wife saw an interview with a police who said that policy and protocol was not followed in how that 12 yr old shooting took place. The officer explained in detail how the shooting officer did this wrong. Had he followed procedure & training that kid would still be alive. Plus, the officer involved has an embarrassing record of police complaints. His lack of judgement could have been predicted. He was fired from a nearby police force. Cleveland hired him without doing their due… Read more »
Dwight,
Bill Mac just said exactly what I was trying to say.
Facts matter.
Bluntly put – Brandishing a real looking gun at citizenry – and reaching for it when cops arrive is gonna get you shot – no matter the age or skin color of the officers or the “suspect”.
Dwight: You may be privy to info that I’ve not seen. But policies violated don’t equate to racial motivation. The cop may indeed be a bad cop, but is he a racist cop? I’d want to see some type of evidence that he was. I honestly don’t know if I can agree that if it was black cops who arrived on the scene if it would have played out differently. The only thing that I saw that gave me pause was that they pulled their car right up to the young man, giving them no time to react other than… Read more »
Tarheel,
A grand jury may reason like you & Bill Mac. But, it will likely trigger a round of protests that make Ferguson & Staten Island look pale in comparison. I would certainly join those protest. If u listened to the facts articulated by the policeman as to why proper procedure in dealing with the Cleveland case was not followed, perhaps you will look at this differently.
Tarheel, my friend…what is your justification. For the Wal-Mart Ohio shooting? Shouldn’t a customer be able to pick up a BB gun in the BB gun section & not get killed?
Bill Mac
that was my point. As a kid in St. Louis I knew some bad cops. they were not racial in their approach, they were just bad cops toward Blacks or whites. I know from experience.
I need to hasten to say that the vast vast vast majority of the cops I have known in my lifetime were good men and good cops. I appreciate law enforcement a great deal, they have a hard job in today’s climate.
Bingo again my good friend. It is about perception and legitimacy of themselves.
My fear is today it is racism, tomorrow it is another issue and next year some other issue while the Gospel proper is pushed to the side as in days of yore
Grace again
BM
Exactly, BM.
Bill Mac, Sitting in podiatrist office waiting to get my callouses worked on. Old age is different. Trying to learn how to be old-:). Bill Mac, you nailed it!!! Thanks for jogging my memory. On the interview my wife saw she said that the officer stated that you never pull directly to a suspect in the manner that that cop did. He gave 4-5 reasons why they are trained not to do that. His approach had to violate protocol & training according to this officer. So, if they had parked further back, assessed the age of the child, perhaps hollered… Read more »
An increasing number of black Southern Baptists are matriculating through the SBC’s six seminaries. That’s the key to seeing black entity heads and black SBC presidents. I actively work to recommend black Southern Baptists for leadership positions within the SBC. Every name I’ve given has been someone who graduated from an SBC seminary and serves at a church that is actively engaged in SBC life.
The seminary experience creates relationship networks that carry forward into denominational life.
That is the way to get it done… In another way….I’m cooperating with Ken Weathersby and his team as they plant a church here in our area of Nashville in early 2015. It’s going to be exciting to sit under his preaching and teaching and meet and work more with their congregation, and offer mission work we are involved in to their folks in ministry. At the end of the day, we must be intentional in cooperation.
Bart, Many Blacks who matriculated at SBC seminaries end up pastoring in NBC churches or have a very casual official….but none engaged relationship with the SBC. Why? Don’t know all the answers but a few of them are: 1. The entity head & elected leadership of the SBC remains all White from their beginning ’till today. Fred Luter being the lone 2 yr exception. SBC trained Blacks recognized that Frank Page’s position in terms of the ability to effect change or facilitate a vision carries a lot more clout than the position Luter held. The IMB or NAMB presidents are… Read more »
Dwight,
I’m ready to work on #1 and #3.
In Christ,
Bart
#2 would and should stop someone of any color from serving as an SBC head.
David
SBC churches should not be friendly to women or spiritual gifts? Really?
That sounds horrible.
Yikes
Alan,
I’m taking that to mean women Pastors. And, the “gifts” being spoken about are “tongue speaking,” or the ecstatic utterance…I am assuming…based on past conversations.
So, yes, I wouldn’t be for any leader of an SBC entity, who affirmed Women Pastors. And, I really wouldn’t be for SBC entity heads, who would teach ecstatic utterance. Now, if someone does this in the privacy of their own home, then fine. But, if they teach that ecstatic utterance is a spiritual gift, in a public way…then, no.
David
Bart & David, I might add 2 other points that I think hinder more inclusion or the larger Black Churches being more engaged in the SBC. 4. A lack of social justice understanding-commitment-involvement or however you phrase it, in the SBC. However, my guess would be the recent statements by “the powers that be” are positively turning some heads regarding the SBC. I received one call from a high profile NBC pastor overjoyed & elated with Richard Land’s statement in response to Staten Island/Ferguson. I was unaware of Land’s statement ’till I got that call & that’s what prompted my… Read more »
Bart and Dave W., I forgot one. The largest Black Baptist Church in Oklahoma City, OK is pastored by a Midwestern graduate. He also served as President of the Progressive Baptist Convention that was formed in the early ’60’s because the NBC rejected MLK. One of the seldom discussed aspects of MLK’s life particularly by SBC personalities is that he was rejected by the NBC during his lifetime. He managed to gain enough influence from outside of the NBC to succeed, but, because of the enormous influence of Dr. J. H. Jackson-a Reagan Republican by the way-who had serious philosophical… Read more »
We studied the birth of the PNBC during Ph.D. seminars at SWBTS.
Dwight, The most racist years of the SBC were the 135 years (1845-1980) that the convention totally sold out to the Democratic Party. That’s historical fact right there. Now, I don’t want us to be totally sold out to the Republican Party, either. I’m happy to see the convention become more independent, because I’m not all that happy with where the GOP is headed these days. But I am not willing to see us get even a scintilla more friendly with the Democrats. That is a party of infanticidal monsters. Under the present administration, the party has only grown more… Read more »
Bart: I would say that I as a Southern Baptist individual accept those who are Democrat to be full fledged Christians and Southern Baptists in good standing with both God and the Southern Baptists who should be in leadership. Only God knows those who are closet Democrats yet are in leadership in the SBC, who are white. I think more than anyone realizes. Democrats and Republicans have always been part of the SBC. Instead of trying to change black ministers or congregations who are Democrat, we need to learn to bend. They are not pro-abortion or a host of other… Read more »
Republicans have done nothing to lessen the racial divide. If anything they are the ones who have widened it and not just among African Americans. In the church it is the Republicans who have broadened the gap, as seen on this forum and other posts on this subject.
“I care more about the legion of black babies who don’t get to see the light of day—the genocide of black children—than I care about racial reconciliation.”
This is perhaps the most important statement made yet. Life or death is immeasurable more important than any real or perceived need for living people to be reconciled. Amen Bart.
Dwight,
Sometimes, my brother, you’re like the guy selling me a car. When you describe the product, I fall in love with it. When you describe the price, not so much.
The product? Racial integration and racial reconciliation.
The price? Women preachers and alliances with the Democratic party.
I like the product. I just can’t afford it. 🙂
Then again, that doesn’t make me give up on the product. It just makes me want to see whether I can get it for a more reasonable price.
I’m optimistic about that.
Dwight, maybe you can speak to this, but my recollection, from my conversations with you and observations, is that you are not aligned with either the Democrats or Republicans.
Is that correct?
Women preachers may be what’s needed here Bart. We aren’t as dumb as the stereotypes portray us to be. Even in things of scripture. Just pointing that out. 🙂
Debbie, no one is suggesting that male preachers are intelligent. And where I can do so, I’m quite egalitarian. But I will not disobey scripture just for the sake of being in style.
Dave,
I realize that Dwight himself is no Democrat. But we’re not talking about Dwight individually; rather, the conversation centers upon Dwight’s opinion that black Baptists in general would require a political shift within the SBC before they would be willing to participate in SBC life.
Black pastors have overwhelmingly supported Democrats. I’m hopeful that this situation could change. After all, at the beginning of my lifetime you could say that white Southern Baptist pastors overwhelmingly supported Democrats.
Bart & Dave, I wrote a very lengthy comment to Bart regarding the issues that I believe seperate Black & White Baptist, and why we should not allow these differences to keep us from doing church planting/development together. However, when I hit the publish/send button, somehow my lengthy & I believe helpful message got garbled up. It would not go through for some odd reason. Maybe the North Koreans intercepted it-:). So, if time permits tomorrow, I will ask The Lord to bring back to my remembrance that brilliant lengthy piece I wrote. And I will submit it as a… Read more »
Bart: You mean you won’t disobey your interpretation of scripture, one which I disagree with. I do not want to disobey scripture either, but as with the subject of segregation that some would use scripture to support, saying the same thing concerning “disobedience of scripture”, I would challenge your interpretation, but alas I realize this is not the subject of this post…but I did interject this per your comment.
I should revise my last comment, no one has endorsed segregation. That is a poor statement on my part. My apologies.
Debbie,
It’s not just an interpretation of Scripture. It could not be more clearly spelled out, than it is. There’s really no wiggle room for seeing it otherwise, and still be true to the Scriptures.
David
Doggone North Koreans!!
LOL
“Women preachers may be what’s needed here Bart. We aren’t as dumb as the stereotypes portray us to be. Even in things of scripture. Just pointing that out. :)” Debbie, Women can be false teachers just as men can be. And no one can stop you from being a woman pastor or preacher in our free country. You just won’t be accepted into some institutionalized clubs. I don’t see that those Body of Christ functions were ever meant to be so institutionalized anyway. I guess I am wondering why it is so important to be accepted by the “group”. And… Read more »
Debbie: “The sky is blue”
Lydia: “No, the sky is gray”
Debbie: “It’s raining out”
Lydia: “No, it’s drizzling”
Lydia: In the Southern Baptist realm, one cannot be a leader if he/she is not allowed to be. I am Southern Baptist and because of that I want to see changes made in a “group.” We are not supposed to always be lone rangers. The Bible doesn’t teach that. Sometimes yes, but in this case group change is needed. You can deny the race problem, but that doesn’t mean it’s not there. Women also teach the truth as well as men. In this case I believe Southern Baptist doctrine, except for a few issues, to be the truth as taught… Read more »
Debbie, who ever persuaded you to believe this? “In the Southern Baptist realm, one cannot be a leader if he/she is not allowed to be.” Leaders lead, even if the followers are few in number. You must be talking about the politics, not the gospel. right?
Chris: Yes. It’s the politics. In fact isn’t that the whole point of all these many discussions? It politics were not the problem or the solution, however one may look at it, we wouldn’t be discussing what we are discussing now.
Chris,
Excited to learn ’bout your partnering with Weathersby in church planting. Land, Moore & anyone else who said it is right. The type churches that you described are the only hope to bridge this racial impasse.
Yes… Ken and I sat with the TBC where we are forming a sort of church incubator off the beaten path. It will be fun, …lots of work to do. He is already getting the choir ready for rehearsal….so, I’ll have to loosen up a little! I think we can have a great relationship and learn from each other…..I’ll be sharing with him what we have been doing for the last 20 years in an urban area of Nashville, and at another location we spun up this year. I think it will make some sense to him.
Ken Weathersby is a great guy. I appreciate his ministry in TN.
Chris, what church do you belong to? I do know Nashville pretty well. I have family, who live in Fairview. And, I have friends, who live all over the Nashville area.
David
Tell them to sell me a big house on the cheap.
Volfan,… Grace Church at Hermitage/Providence. I put the hot link on my name….and a map.
I’m looking forward to working with Ken.
David W., Billy Graham ’till this day calls his daughter Anne Graham Lotz the best preacher in the Graham household. Dr. Karen Bullock preached in chapel at SWBTS under the Hemphill administration. Because it has been on his website I feel the liberty to say that annually Fred Luter has had a woman to speak annually on Sunday morning at his church for “Women’s Day” for many-many years. Dorothy Page spoke on a Sunday Morning during the preaching hour at the Concord Baptist Church in Dallas in the ’80’s. The 2000 BFM forbids women Senior Pastors, but not women preachers… Read more »
The BFM speaks to how the plain text of scripture prohibits women pastors (btw – not exclusively “senior pastors” but the office of pastor itself). It does not speak to women teachers/speakers who are teaching under male Pastoral authority. Lotz is a teacher and is not a pastor. First, The incident you speak of in chapel at Southwestern so many years ago Took place when liberalism and biblical infidelity was still so prevelant at our seminaries. Second, seminaries aren’t churches – they’re training centers for Christian ministry – well, at least that’s what they’re supposed to be. As to Luter… Read more »
Tarheel,
Am I to understand that you are saying that if a woman speaks to a coed audience in Sunday Morning worship in the time slot normally allotted for the pastor, that is not in violation of the BFM 2000?
If that’s the case, we are all in agreement. If that’s the case David W’s “crystal clear” remark in crystal clearly wrong. Please clarify what you are saying here? Thanks.
Dwight, because I believe in autonomy – I will say that pastors/churches can “open up” their pulpits to anyone they choose – of course – understanding that they (The pastors/elders are responsible for anything that is taught therein). Whether or not it’s a violation of our confessional document that’s a different question. The Baptist Faith and message states clearly that the office of pastor is reserved for men. Having a woman speak on Sunday morning a violation? – not necessarily. A church however would be in violation of the Baptist Faith and message should they have a female holding the… Read more »
Dr Bullock spoke in chapel while Dr Hemphill was president. SWBTS was never Liberal, and was not during Hemphills years. You can also ask Bart Barber about Dr Bullock, he was one of her students. She is not now, and never was liberal by any stretch of the imagination.
David W., I would bet you that if you offered a resolution in the SBC annual session that “Be it resolved that the SBC does not affirm “women preachers” it would not get a majority vote. As a matter of fact, I wish that you would offer such a resolution. The SBC needs to be crystal clear as to where they stand on an issue like this. The SBC needes to be crystal clear as to where they stand on the subject of “praying in tongues in private.” But, they won’t take a definitive stand. Why not? Because they know… Read more »
Dwight My dear brother, women preachers are not even on the radar for SB. This was part of the fire for the CR, some of the liberals/moderates advocated women preachers. I dare say today that 98% of SB reject tongues as a prayer language or any form. You are correct that this was overlooked by the IMB board in a hire of the CEO in days gone by. However, that act really “sunk up” of us and since that time the position of non advocating tongues pretty well galvanized. It is true is some areas that it is not a… Read more »
D L,
You could be right, and if so, fine!!! So be it. But, shouldn’t that become official? Why should we be left to guess what the SBC position is on these matters? Or why doesn’t the SBC seek the removal of churches that clearly, openly, and convictionally, embrace the positions that you say are 98% rejected by the SBC? Doesn’t integrity dictate and mandate that churches be informed of this when they enter the SBC?
Dr. Dwight
Definitely not! SB are not a creedal people. We have certain doctrines that are non negotiable and you know what those are. The things you are talking about are left to the individual church to do as God leads. Again local autonomy is precious to SB. And again SB seek to be inclusive rather than exclusive. Dr. Dwight you have beliefs different than mine. I have no desire to kick you out because you exercise autonomy. For the life of me I cannot understand the problem.
D L, The truth of the matter is churches have been dismissed over the women and tongues question. There is inconsistency of the SBC over these issues. As much as I would love to see greater inter-racial unity in the SBC, I think that the SBC needs to be totally transparent on these issues so churches will know whether or not they are being tolerated or appreciated. If they are simply going to be tolerated many of them would say, thanks, but, no thanks. People would rather be where they are appreciated, not just tolerated. I am reading a book… Read more »
Dr. Dwight You must understand Baptist structure. Each entity is autonomous. The State Convention, the Local Association, and the SBC are all autonomous. Each is free to make their decisions independent of each other. Those who were dismissed were not dismissed by the SBC, they were dismissed by the local Association, again which is autonomous and free do do what they choose. Please understand SB are not creedal we are confessional and there is a big difference. One of those differences is that what the Associations in New York may allow, the Association in Oklahoma may not. That s who… Read more »
Dr. Dwight
I want to respectfully say that I fail to see what Baptist did in the 1800’s has to do with our conversation.
With that I have already said more than I understand on this subject, so I see no reason to keep running my mouth. Have a great Lord’s day my brother. I Am preaching tomorrow in a very troubled church. If you think about it I would appreciate you prayers tomorrow around 10AM Mountain time.
D L,
I would venture to say that at a minimum one-fourth…or perhaps as many as one-third or more of the predominately African American SBC Churches including the one pastored by a former SBC president allow a woman to speak on a Sunday Morning at a minimum of once a year. Actually, it is probably a much higher percentage than what I’ve stated. Why isn’t the SBC attempting to boot these churches out of the SBC if you are correct?
Dr. Dwight
(1) I am not passing judgement I am simply relating where i think the SBC is.
(2) Women speaking in church is simply not a test of fellowship. I am not a Calvinist but I do not want to make Calvinism a test of fellowship.
(3) I know many pastors who would not have a woman speak in their church. However, that does not say they want to kick you out because you do.
(4) Most SB seek to be inclusive not exclusive is at all possible.
(5) Local autonomy is very precious to SB
D L,
I agree with you. It is not SBC doctrine. It is not crystal clear in Scripture as David W., has falsely alleged. Therfore, you all need to stop representing these positions as SBC positions but, simply your personal opinions.
Dr. Dwight You are much to hung up on “SBC position”. What is that all about. You are free to practice your beliefs and I will fight for that. However if you believe that more SB believe the way you do about women in the pulpit and tongues as opposed to the way I do, you are badly mistaken. Again I am not passing judgement. ALL I am saying is that most SB do not advocate speaking in tongues and women pastors. There is no such thing as a “SB position” on this issue, merely those who do and those… Read more »
Dwight – if that resolution stated that the word pastor refers to all who hold the office being male – I would bet it’d pass overwhelmingly – but it’s not necessary because the Baptist Faith and message 2000 already makes that clear. Stating that the office of pastor is reserved to men. As for tongues – I think you’re on the wrong side of that into most southern Baptist do not support ecstatic utterances. Here arises one of the issues that no one really wants to discuss – it is clear that one of the reasons there is division between… Read more »
I hear the word most coming from you and DL Tarheel with no actual proof that is true. I think you would be surprised at the actual result.
Debbie I think we are all giving opinions here. None of us have proof. You have no proof that I would be surprised. But again no matter, we are simply having a discussion. Regarding proof however, I pastored 20 years in Oklahoma, I do remember in the very late 70’s or earely 80’s resolutions were passed at the BGCO annual meeting that positioned us to oppose women preachers, and tongues. Of course those are not binding and reflect the views of those present. That may have changed in recent years. Perhaps now Okla Baptist advocates tongues and women preachers, I… Read more »
As to private speaking in tongues – there needs to be no resolution on that – there needs to be no statement on that in our confessional document – you know why? Because if it’s private – no one will know about it but the person practicing it.
I will say that the question about private tongues should be removed from our documents and questionnaires – I am much more comfortable with those documents and questionnaires inquiring as to the applicants convictions and intentions regarding public use and teaching of Ecstatic utterances. But that’s just me.
Tarheel,
I totally agree with your second paragraph. I think I might even agree with your 1st paragraph. Except for “private” does not mean that I can’t mention it; private means that I will not practice it in your presence.
Tarheel, Artful dodge. The question was, how would the SBC respond to a resolution declaring that “women preachers”(not pastors) are not affirmed by the SBC. Answer that question please, rather than one that I am not asking. Who is talking about “estatic utterance”? Why are you bringing that up? I am asking that would the SBC vote approvingly of a resolutuion saying that “the SBC hereby resolve that we do not affirm the belief and practice of some Christians who pray in tongues in private”? It baffles me that if thease are rock solid convictions of the majority of SBC… Read more »
When have you ever known me to dodge anything – if anything I’m accused of being too blunt. LOL
I answered your question somewhere in this thread! Lol
Tarheel and D L,
The two of you must have forgotten the Lifeway Poll taken just a few years ago that clearly indicated tha t 51 % of Southern Baptist belived in the biblical validity of prayong in tongues in private. So to represent the majority of SBC personnel as being non-supportive of this notion simply belies the facts.
Dr. Dwight
I an unaware of the poll. Could you direct me to it please?
All
I do know that when I was commissioned 20 years ago by the then HMB, I was asked about a prayer language, it was then a disqualifier. I thought that strange given the then FMB.
Was prayer language a disqualifier for IMB after the controversy surrounding the hiring of Jerry Rankin. Some of you historians help me here. It seems to me that during the tenure of Charles Stanley, tongues, prayer language, and divorce were disqualifier for both mission boards. Again you history guys help me, I have slept a few times since then.
D.L.
This one was done by Lifeway in 2007:
LifeWay releases prayer language study
“should we abandon these doctrines to be more inclusive” Tarheel, No!!!! The SBC should not abandon any doctrine to be more inclusive. The problem is there is not one doctrine in the ’63 BFM statement, or the 2000 BFM statement that I don’t wholeheartedly believe. And that would be true of a high-high percentage of African American Baptist pastors. The things that we may or may not be in disagreement about are not addressed in the ’63 or 2000 statement. Therein lies the problem. Therefore, don’t abandon your doctrine to include any church. But at least be open and honest… Read more »
Dr. Dwight If it is not on the BFM it is not “our doctrine” as SB. You are free to believe as you want and I am free to believe as I want. I do not want to kick you out for disagreeing with me, why are you insistent that I make it official. It is already official, you are free to believe and practice as you see fit. If you want to have a woman speak every sunday do it and don’t worry about what I think. If you want to sit up all night and exercise a prayer… Read more »
Dr Dwight
One mire word. You said “your” doctrine, so we don’t have to “guess”. Maybe I am being picky but if you are a SB should that not be “our” doctrine. As far as guessing my brother, if you are this concerned about it, make a motion at the convention.
I hope so.
And, to be honest, I am looking forward to the day when the names that we mention as representing a “sea change” are not white guys who are finally getting it, but rather, leaders from the ethnic groups represented in the SBC who have been chosen by all of us to lead our entities.
That will be the real sea change.
We had a real opportunity to place an Asian man into the Presidency of the IMB. BUt, the powers that be chose otherwise. They went with the White fella.
David
The “powers that be” being the messengers at the annual meeting?
The people behind the scenes.
The people behind the scenes.
That was a sad indictment. It kinda comes off as a PC move, but the SBC MUST become more inclusive
Volfan
Did they go with the “white fella” or with the existentially tuned in, cool “celebrity, mega pastor”. It would help a great deal if SB could get over hero worship. I have done my share. My hero was John Bisango. I would have voted for him for anything over anybody.
I was very glad that he got 41% of the vote, though. That was a good thing. He was largely unknown by most there. And, Dwight did a fantastic job with the nomination speech. I think that there is a great desire from rank and file SBCers to see change. The block is still in the upper levels where people have positions and want access to those positions for themselves. I do not think that there is a nefarious plot to keep ethnic minorities out of leadership. I think that it simply involves relational connections and a desire for access… Read more »
Oh, there’s more decisions being made in some back room that what most SB’s will ever know.
David
Page is a good man. I admire him. He’s a good leader. I appreciate his efforts to deal head on with various issues.
However, despite his good intentions and capability – still – the top down approach – will not work.
Dave miller, Speaking of nonsense and “the point”….you asked – “Is the assumption that there is always a white person more qualified than a black? Do we have to fire a MORE qualified white to DONATE a position to a black man?” No! And no one has said that, either. But I do ask by installing affirmative action Arent we still saying – “The assumption that there is always a qualified black persons will not exist unless WE create them?” Affirmative action is, IMO, racism – for many reasons – one being the intimation that whites must give special breaks… Read more »
I should say no one has said SERIOUSLY to fire white guys and give to a minority – I said that feciously to illustrate what I see as the absurdity of racial quotas.
Tarheel, you said, “Affirmative action is, IMO, racism – for many reasons – one being the intimation that whites must give special breaks to blacks for them to attain. The “they can’t make it on thier own” mentality.” That might be the case in some situations, like college admissions. But, in the SBC, the reality IS that white pastors/leaders DO get special breaks because of who they know, their relational networks, and their past history. It is a fact. So, any type of intentional plan to bring leadership from the 10,000 SBC churches (20%) that are majority ethnic in constituency/leadership… Read more »
I am tired. I am tired of a conversation that I thought was settled at the foot of the cross – where all humanity of any stripe could come and be at peace and be treated with equality by a loving God: “…red and yellow, black and white, we are precious in His sight.” I at this point of my journey could give a flying leap about who sits in what position where in denominational positions of service. To mine and ours, it really is not that relevant to our calling and ministry. Sure – we give to support missions… Read more »
Good points RA. I am convinced that there is a serious divide in how “black” and “white” pastors perceive the Ministry. “White” pastors seem to be more engaged in the Gospel proper while “black” pastors see the Ministry through a more socio-economic lens. I believe that this stems from history and the civil rights struggles which were/are embedded in the “black” church. As for me personally, i do not care about the color of skin, but about the right and wrong of a situation. We are reaping what we have sown in many respects ie past racism and an almost… Read more »
And one last thing, Jesus could have protested a lot of social injustices during His day as well as the apostles; however, they stuck to their guns and the Ministry of proclaiming Christ as Lord and Saviour to ALL men Jew and Greek
Later homeys
1. Whites have no better or worse handle on the gospel than Blacks. When Blacks preach/share the gospel they often include the message of the gospel’s here & now impact, without neglecting to include the gospel’s impact on the hereafter. In my judgement Whites tend to hone in on the hereafter effect and impact of the gospel while also acknowledging the gospel’s here and now realities and effect. But to claim that Whites preaching the gospel present a more pristine version is simply inaccurate. I have actually gone out witnessing on more than one occasion with Whites, and many times… Read more »
If MLK had followed your advice ’bout not protesting & marching we Blacks would still be under Jim Crow laws, and Obama would not be president. Neither would George. Zimmerman been brought to justice, although he escaped.
Rob, we have the luxury, as people who have not suffered from racial discrimination, to act as if it does not matter. It is a luxury a lot of other people in America don’t have.
And since we are supposed to love our neighbor as ourself, we probably ought to be concerned about their experiences and struggles.
Dave, Where have I ever said, “It did not matter.” It is something that has never left my lips, typed on a keyboard, or entered my heart. That is an evil assumption that many of my brothers in the Lord have = and it is just as evil as racial discrimination. There are a lot of calls for soul searching around here. Let that attitude and thought be one of them that also gets on the block of review. Have you lived life completely void of injustice? While I have not experienced what others have, I have lived out my… Read more »
I learned a long time ago not to trust anything that comes out of North Carolina but the Biblical Recorder provided an article celebrating the strides Southern Baptist have made in the area of race. Here is a paragraph from the article, “In 2012 the convention elected by acclamation Fred Luter of New Orleans as its first black president to a standing ovation. As of November 2014, at least 24 state Baptist conventions that cooperate with the SBC had elected non-Anglos as their presidents. More than 10,000 of the SBC’s 50,500 churches and church-type missions are non-Anglo, comprised of a… Read more »
Dean,
Who is engaging in “condemnation”?
I see none!
Not sure where that accusation came from, Dean.
condemnation: a statement or expression of very strong and definite criticism or disapproval Dave, Dwight and DL, can you guys honestly tell me that in the comment stream above there are not statements of definite criticism or disapproval of the SBC on race relations? I do not have the time or desire to read through them again and pick them out. I remember reading, “racism is alive and well in the SBC.” I remember reading, “we make decisions to protect our way of life and what benefits us.” Alan Cross said we have camouflaged our racism by giving it new… Read more »
Dean, As u know there is a difference between condemnation & critique; between condemnation & constructive criticism; condemnation & evaluation; condemnation & observation. A football team, a church, a business, or no other entity can move forward or make progress if they don’t take an honest look at themselves & make necessary changes. The Bible says, “Let a man examine himself.” What you are reading & have read is self examination, not condemnation. No one here is condemning the SBC for racial or any other reason. We are admitting sins, problems & issues of the past & present, so that… Read more »
“Let a man examine himself.”
For some odd reason that is troubling me I have not heard much self-examination in the post or the thread. “Others” attitudes and thoughts and opinions are chocked full here – self-examination? Not so much. Just my perception of things.
Rob
Dwight, I don’t see anyone examining himself at all in this comment thread.
I wanted to highlight some good in the SBC but evidently I chose my words poorly and some were offended. I hate that. Maybe criticize would have been better than condemnation. I was channelling my inner Jessie Jackson and had to make it ryhme.
Dean & Rob,
Those of us who have “criticized,” “condemned” “observed,” “evaluated,” or whatever one wishes to call it are insiders. We belong to the SBC. Therefore, we are examining ourselves. When I sat on the trustee board at SWBTS we had to examine or evaluate Paige Patterson. The evaluation was designed for observation not condemnation(get it? That’s my best Jessie Jackson back-to-you imitation).
If I may say so Dwight – your evaluation of personnel and employees at SWBTS was done behind closed doors – “Executive Session” as it was a personnel matter protected by all matter of law and regulation. When you condemn, criticize, and observe with broad brush strokes with inflammatory ways when we cannot even agree on terms = well then.. what do we call this? You want us to be sensitive to your perceptions = but reject ours as being “insensitive” or even latent racism. If we are going to have discussion it really does require “let each examine yourself.”… Read more »
Alan, you have written words that are plain and simple only later to change what they meant. I guess that is fine. No one can pin you down that way. However, you do not get to change the meaning of my words that are plain and simple. I never stated, insinuated or suggested you said every individual in MS in the 50’s and 60’s was racist. You said racism was accepted and celebrated everywhere in MS. I find that statement ludicrous. I offered three churches and a town asking you to name how they celebrated racism. You replied you didn’t… Read more »
No, Dean. My point has always been that racism was/is a symptom of a deeper issue, which is that we often try to protect ourselves and our own “way of life.” That deeper issue manifests in many different ways. The end result might be continued racial division, but that end result might not originate with racism, per se. It might just be that we gravitate toward who we know and who we believe will benefit our own position. I do not think that everything is veiled racism. I am saying that the deeper impetus that used to manifest in racism… Read more »
No, Alan, here is your quote in its entirety. Heel made the comment that SBC racism was in the past to which you replied, “No one says we are. People are acting like the SBC has not been overtly racist, however. It all ended abruptly from national leaders in 1968, by the way. That is when W.A. Criswell repented, opened the doors of FBC Dallas, and said, “never have I been so blind.” The SBC also adopted a pretty substantial resolution on race in 1968 – long before the 1995 resolution. Criswell was elected president, the SBC repented on racism,… Read more »
“What you said and meant is clear – today’s racism now flies under worship styles and culture….” Well, Dean, I am trying to tell you what I really meant and what I really think. I went back and read my comment and I was typing fast on the surface of things. What I said there IS NOT what I really mean. So, allow me to retract that – as I already have twice. I left an explanation after that comment and even an apology for being terribly unclear. I guess that you didn’t see it. What I was trying to… Read more »
The other thing was where you said, “Heel’s comment was aimed at a comment you made about our past sins in which you said racism was everywhere, celebrated and accepted – I assume you meant in Mississippi.” I do not believe that racism is now everywhere and is celebrated and accepted everywhere at the present time. I was talking about in the past and that past had created divisions that persist until the present, even though they manifest along different lines from purely race. I have maintained for a long time that “race” is not the primary divider, but rather,… Read more »
The comment/clarification that I wrote under the offending comment up top. I wrote it 18 minutes before you quoted the comment in full to show me my error again: “Alan Cross says December 19, 2014 at 10:58 pm My purpose here was not to say that overt racism is still prominent in SBC life. The thing that lies beneath racism is that we want our lives to be protected and we want to have our own personal preferences met. In the past it looked like racism. Now, that underlying desire that once manifested racially might take other forms, but the… Read more »
I’ll throw this in for what it is worth: I can’t find any New Testament justification for churches to be divided over what kind of music they like.
🙂
Nor can I – and I think that separation is ridiculous too. But, I wouldn’t call it racism.
Alan, I understand you were speaking of the past when you said racism was everywhere, accepted and celebrated.
I say again, that is a poor statement that cannot be substantiated.
I have no way of reading your thoughts but I can read your words and your words say that racism was celebrated and accepted everywhere in MS. To me, that is an unfair, gross generalization. It also simply is not true.
Dean, When I talk about this, I am talking about the forest and not individual trees. The overall forest was a system of racism and segregation and Southern Baptists were in it neck deep. Yes, you are right – there were individual trees in the forest that were not racist. I have always maintained that as well. I think that we are talking about different things here. No, I do not know the mind of every single person from the past. I am speaking generally. I grew up in Mississippi and my family lived there for 150 years before my… Read more »
Isn’t the “Gospel command” so called differences overblown?
Can anyone be saved regardless of color? For Certain.
Can a racist be saved? Again, For certain.
Here comes the command part.
Can a racist person be saved and continue in his racist attitudes and behaviors? Certainly not. There is no one with a clear understanding of the Gospel that should have racist attitudes or behaviors. In that sense, it is a Gospel demand.
I don’t see how anyone should disagree with this.
Don, you wrote “Can a racist person be saved and continue in his racist attitudes and behaviors? Certainly not. There is no one with a clear understanding of the Gospel that should have racist attitudes or behaviors. In that sense, it is a Gospel demand.” The answer to your question is yes. There are a lot of “saved” people who walk in the flesh and continue to sin in extraordinary ways. This doesn’t make it right but it is the reality. Our work ( and I am assuming you’re a pastor) is to apply Scripture to life and challenge all… Read more »
If someone I pastor claims to be a follower of Christ and is unrepentant and continuing in racist attitudes or behavior, I see no way that that I could encourage them that they are in Christ.
I would not allow that person to be treated as part of the fellowship. I would teach them the Gospel.
The sin of Racism is cause for a person to be denied fellowship in a local church and a reason for that person to be removed from the church.
Even on our best day, we sin greatly
I cannot see how a quota system or an affirmative action strategy would solve anything within the SBC because there is no evidence that it has changed anything in any other institutional sector. In my opinion all people should be treated equally regardless of race. I think that Martin Luther King would agree, people should be affirmed by their character not the color of their skin. I advocate a color blind approach to life. Perhaps this sounds simplistic but it is the only viable option. Treating people with courtesy and respect is what God would have us do.
wilbur
“I advocate a color blind approach to life.”
All Christians should, Wilbur. Southern Baptists should not be continuing to have this conversation 170 years after SBC formation … nearly two centuries, Wilbur.
“I advocate a color blind approach to life.” This is said a lot and there is a problem with this approach. We are not color blind. We see white skin, we see black skin, etc. and it registers in our mind. I say we should not have a “color blind” approach because that is still denying the problem. We should however have the “all people are created equal” approach and all are made in the image of God approach. At the risk of getting hammered the “color blind” approach is racist without meaning to be, putting on rose colored glasses… Read more »
Amen!!!
“At the risk of getting hammered the “color blind” approach is racist without meaning to be, putting on rose colored glasses approach, and ignorant, bypassing the reality of the situation as if it does not exist, yet this approach magnifies it even more.” Whatever happened to the content of character instead of color of skin? I think someone who is not white actually said that in a speech at one time. :o) This is why I cannot stand the collective approach. People cannot be “individuals”. They have to be “groups”. And that only perpetuates the us/them mentality. Booker T Washington… Read more »
I think this is both/and concept, as in a color blind culture is to be expected, is ideal, yet you cannot simply flip a switch after a century or two of restrictive economic opportunity and expect that ideal to work. Another thing to consider: Are we talking past each other conflating racism with systemic poverty? The pathologies of systemic poverty (regardless of race) are the real challenge to overcome. I would be surprised if anyone here advocated for racial superiority or racial privilege. I think it is sloppy to use the racism card when that card means something specifically horrific.… Read more »
Mike
You pose a very thought provoking issue. Wish I had some answers.
It is one thing to feel oppressed. It is quite another to feel oppressed and be hungry and cold. If I were full and warm I could handle oppression easier I believe. Having said that, there i obviously something wrong if one must make that choice. The environment that mandates that choir is borne our of environment full of sin.
I don’t think colorblind is racist, it’s just naive.
It is not “naive”. It is the ideal. While we may not approach it this side of glory, it is the goal. To wish for it, encourage it, and practice it is not racist or naive. To those who reject it or flippantly call those who call for it “racist” – well they are not acting with the Spirit of Christ. You see “color blind” is what He is and it is practiced where He is. If He lives inside of you, that is who you are and should be.
Rob
Agreed, Rob. Amen.
Bill Mac,
Sir, what is “naive” about the power of the Gospel to transform a person?
wilbur
Bill did not say “the power of the gospel to transform a person” was naive, Wilbur.
He said the “colorblind” thing is naive.
Please refrain from twisting people’s words.
Rob
You are correct
Yes, of course and absolutely we should confront racism when it appears – but attributing matter to it exclusively that are not so in reality is counterproductive. It makes true issues of racism harder to attack as the term has been devalued to the point that it has not power anymore. If R-card is so frequently and continually pulled, even amid evidence to the contrary as it has so many times on this forum, then there comes a time that the R word will mean nothing. If the past is bonked over heads incessantly as if nothing has changed in… Read more »
Sorry, no. I’m not about to ignore anything about a person that helps define who they are. I had a long conversation with a young black student when President Obama was first elected. I wanted to get his take on it, because he has a different perspective than mine. I don’t get to do that if I’m “colorblind”. I was at an Operation Christmas Child conference last year. Lots of people who look like me, lots of people who don’t. I spent a lot of time seeking out and talking to the ones who don’t, because while we are alike… Read more »
Sorry, no. I won’t agree with you that skin color “defines who someone is.”
Tarheel
You are absolutely correct re. the “club”. Historically if one was not in the “club” or one of the “faired haired boys” you were not in line for anything, regardless of one’s education, experience, and yes even race.
While I was totally supportive of the CR was there any leader of that movement that was not rewarded in some way for his involvement, either a job or Pres of the SBC. Granted this was not the same as the club, but the principle is the same.
Tarheel: I said helps define. There are probably hundreds of things that help define who we are. Why wouldn’t skin color be one of them? Skin color denotes a certain ethnicity or ancestry. How is that not a part of what defines us? I’m not very tall. I don’t think people should discriminate against me because I’m not tall (except during pickup basketball games), but being short is a small part of what defines me. My faith helps define me, so does my gender, so does being a father. My white skin also helps define me. It shows that I… Read more »
NO. Skin color and height describe you – your character defines you.
Debbie,
Racism does exist, it is real and tangible. The solution is the Gospel of Christ, it is that simple. When a person is born again by the Holy Spirit they become a new creation and love others. It works because it is based on truth. Millions of people have experienced it.
wilbur
Right on, Wilbur!
What does that mean? Does that mean that we shouldn’t talk about racism and confront it? That we should only do evangelism and ignore the problem?
It sounds really great to say, “the solution is the gospel” and we would ALL agree to that. Amen. But what does that mean in reality? What does that mean for the life of the SBC?
Should we deal with the issue? Or should we ignore it? What does “the solution is the gospel” mean in real terms? Can you elaborate, Wilbur?
Dave I am not Wilbur but I would like to respond. You have framed the question and situation very well. For me it means this. We should continue to work without a doubt. I believe it was Adrian Rogers or perhaps Tal Bonham that said “God will not do my miracle, what he expects us to do by obedience”. I believe that to be true. Having said that to me the phrase means that I have little hope of accomplishing racial reconciliation. We have been at it for nearly 2 centuries and we are not there. I see nothing on… Read more »
Max,
I wonder if the SBC desires a dialogue or a monologue on this matter.
wilbur
Max I totally agree. The problem is how do we stop? Perhaps we could say “I will if you will”. Two factors about the conversation that bother me. (1) We rehash the same old tired arguments (2) Without conversation how do we move ahead? Your point is very salient. After 170 or so years, one would think we would have moved passed the issue. That raises the most frightful question, “will we EVER get passed racism”? Another question that plagues me is, which is first. (1) Do we seek racial reconciliation first then let justice follow as a natural result?… Read more »
Folks, I think Wilbur was saying in his “color blind” comment that Christian love looks beyond the outer man to the inner man. He is not tossing the color of one’s skin aside as being unimportant, but he chooses to embrace all of mankind under a banner of love. When we see a man, the color of his skin might register in our mind … but love enables us to really “see” him in our heart. Color-blindness of this sort is not racist, but anti-racist in the purest sense. If Wilbur’s belief is that “Treating people with courtesy and respect… Read more »
Well said, Max – Well said indeed.
Max,
Bingo, everyone who puts their faith in Christ is a Child of God and is accepted into the family of God.
wilbur
Max: I don’t disagree with any of that, but I don’t think that’s the definition everyone has in mind when they use the term.
I’ll say this again. Inclusion based on skin color alone is ridiculous, and people advocating a “colorblind” society (ie: white people) are looking at it in those clinical terms. I maintain that race (skin color, if you like) can be proxy for an entirely different (non-white) set of experiences and perspectives. Those could be seen as qualifications. For example, Asians are generally more collectivistic, relationship oriented, and patient than Americans. Can no one imagine a scenario where an Asian immigrant’s race (and thus those qualities I have mentioned) might factor into a hiring decision? Never? Not one? I’m not advocating… Read more »
Bill Mac, “For example, Asians are generally more collectivistic, relationship oriented, and patient than Americans. Can no one imagine a scenario where an Asian immigrant’s race (and thus those qualities I have mentioned) might factor into a hiring decision?” Oh my, you are conflating matters here. Characteristics like you describe are not connected to skin color (often errantly called race). Are all Asians as you describe? If not – then those characteristics cannot be about skin color it has to be about something else? No? A abject racist could make similar statements to the one you just made – but… Read more »
*An abject racist….
Also, said racist could then NOT hire the person because of those “reasons” when the truth of the matter he/she has rejected them BECAUSE of skin color.
See my point? In my way of thinking it is just as wrong and reprehensible to hire someone because of their skin color than it is to not hire someone because of their skin color. (I know, I know, such thinking is condemned in these parts by self appointed reconciliation police – but hey, such trivialities have not stopped me before.) 😉
Tarheel, I don’t think you’re hearing me, but let’s try this another way. Let’s forget skin color. Can you possibly envision a scenario by which you might consider a person’s cultural background as a qualifying factor for a position? For the record, cultural characteristics are well documented in social science literature. See the work of Geert Hofstede. I have traveled all over Asia. The characteristics I mentioned are born out in the academic literature, my own observation, and the Asian people we have interacted with themselves, whom we ask point blank about their perspective on the differences between Asian and… Read more »
Of course – personality and character traits are part of any hiring process. Both good and bad ones.
I’m just saying that those traits aren’t connected to skin tone – but rather environment, upbringing, and culture. It’s the old nature vs. nurture.
What you’re saying is like saying “hire a green eyed person because they all …..” Or “don’t hire one because they all….”
Of course cultural characteristics aren’t connected to skin tone, but there can be a strong correlation between skin tone and cultural. It’s not a perfect proxy but can be a reasonable one, especially if it considered only as part of a person’s qualifications. African American, or Asian, or Native American cultures are real things. Can a white person be raised in these cultures, or black, yellow, or red skin toned people be raised in white culture? Sure, but as I say, a person’s cultural background is only part of the picture.
People are the sum of many things. I am not just my gender, or my race, or my education, or my experience, or my age, or my politics, or my virtues or my vices. I am a combination of all of those things. Yes, I’m an individual, and I’m qualified to do certain things. But if you build