This was originally posted at Alan’s site, Downshore Drift.
SBC In Free Fall? How Far Will the Decline Go and Why Aren’t We Talking About This?
5.5% decline in baptisms from 2011 to 2012 making this the worst year for baptisms since 1948. We now require 50 members of SBC churches to see 1 baptism per year. There are 105,000 less members than the year before. 188,000 less in worship attendance. We now have less than 16 million members and less than 6 million in worship. We have all known that the 16 million number is false and has been for some time. It might legitimately be half that. But, no matter how you look at it, the number is going down.
Thom Rainer recently tells us that only 15% of Millennial Generation born between 1980 and 2000 are Christians.
Frank Page responds with “God forgive us and God help us.”
The larger culture, even in the South, is throwing off its Christian influence in dramatic and remarkable fashion. It seems that the SBC, even though we are the still the largest Protestant denomination in North America, is having little impact on the culture. At least not overtly.
We have 270 more churches in 2012 than we had in 2011, so that is good. Kind of. New churches can take a while to gain traction and begin to reproduce. They are also largely made up of energetic and passionate people who were in other churches. Are we seeing a “brain drain” from established churches to plant new ones that are having spotty evangelistic impact overall? The question needs to be asked.
Why is this happening? Theories abound from the usual, “We aren’t working hard enough” to “We don’t care enough” to Calvinism to non-Calvinism, etc. Lots of finger pointing. I saw one leader tweet that it isn’t that we don’t care, it is that we don’t know “how” to do evangelism. Apparently, the answer is more training.
I asked Ed Stetzer, head of Lifeway Research, what he thought about the decline and the reasons behind it. Ed told me that we were just seeing the continuation of a 50 year trend of slowing growth and then decline. When Ed first told the SBC that a few years ago, he got a good deal of push back. I imagine those voices are silent now in light of the overwhelming evidence.
It is interesting that there has not been more reaction in the Baptist blogosphere/twittersphere the past couple of days. If this had happened a few years ago, say pre-GCR, there would have been no end to the blog posts, pronouncements, and articles on the subject. But, Baptists are strangely quiet in comparison. Why?
I think that we have fired or are in the process of firing all our bullets. We don’t know what to do. The GCR might prove to be the last concerted effort that Baptists are able to muster in our present iteration. The GCR had good ideas, but it didn’t gain traction because it was a top-down effort largely focused on NAMB and freeing up money for more church planting. Well, we are seeing more churches planted (which is good) but overall decline everywhere else. The GCR stopped short of what was needed.
We voted for a name change last year (barely) that has not been brought up again by anyone anywhere. We spent a whole year with a committee studying what our new name would be for those who wanted to use it. The committee discovered that the SBC could not actually change its name because of legal issues. So, we came up with a nickname – Great Commission Baptists. Nothing changed.
This year, we had a committee study Calvinism and its discontents. A report was issued last week from the committee. Little buzz was generated as it didn’t really say anything that we don’t already know and are largely rejecting – we need to focus on what unites us and get along. The truth is, many Baptists don’t want to get along on this issue and a report from a Calvinism peace committee isn’t going to change that. Daggers are drawn.
Meanwhile, the SBC is getting older. That is the real issue. New church plants cannot keep up with rapid aging of the denomination. Many churches are made up primarily of senior adults and they do not have the energy or ability to revive their churches. A church that was rather large in my own city 15 years ago with an amazing facility along a main thoroughfare is now down to about 200 senior adults and very few children. If you drive past it, the building is very impressive. But, they are no longer capable of reaching their neighbors and community. This is just one example, but it is happening all over the SBC and is the reason for the decline, in my opinion.
More and more young people are getting involved in the Convention. That is good. But, there are not enough of them to replace the generation that is growing old and tired and that can no longer carry the burden the way that they once did. We can get all hands on deck and all pray and work hard and be devoted and still not have the growth and strength that we had in 1995 or 1975 or 1965. The demographics are against us and time stops for no man.
That said, a huge part of our problem is that we have spent a great deal of energy, resources, and time over the last several decades trying to protect our own way of life. We became motivated to engage the larger culture when we sense a threat to the life that we had marked out for ourselves. Often, we used God and theology to construct churches and organizations that would protect us and our own place in the world instead of propelling us out into the world in sacrificial love with the gospel. Viruses like racism and consumerism and individualism made us sick with self and we lost our zeal and desire to lay down our lives for God and others. We cannot serve God and serve ourselves at the same time. We cannot love the lost while consistently thinking about our own personal preferences. We are called to die to self, take up our cross and follow Christ. That still needs to happen.
We need refreshing and renewal and joy and to get in touch with our Savior in a way that we can stand in His grace and hear His voice and discern where He will lead us next. We do need theological and ecclesiological renewal, but along with that, we need a renewal of the heart and of love and relationships and practice and ethics. We cannot get back the power we once had. We shouldn’t even try. The past is past and our former “glory” is fading. Honestly, I see that as a good thing in some ways. The good news is that Christ making all things new and He has a way forward for us in the future. We might not be as big as we once were, but that does not mean that we cannot or will not be fruitful if we abide in Christ. We might be more so.
Our churches on the local level have to seek out where God is working in their neighborhoods and cities. We have to learn to love God and love people everywhere we go. We have to find ways to build relationships and work together where we are. We need to network together to plant churches and equip the saints and be salt and light in our local cultures. We cannot look to our denominational entities to save us or to turn the ship around. They have been trying and it isn’t working. We don’t need to wait for our seminaries and for NAMB to solve our problems. We are called to address our communities and the people in front of us and hold out life to them. We need to experience that life ourselves.
I think that the SBC is going to get a good bit smaller over the next 10 to 15 years. I can see official membership dropping below 10 million and worship attendance dropping below 5 million. I can see baptisms leveling out around 250,000 a year. But, that won’t be because God isn’t working or because great things aren’t happening. It will be because a generation died. We will have to reform and regroup and reposition ourselves for the future. The SBC will continue and will be strong, but it will be downsized – for a while.
Honestly, I think that the SBC’s best days can be ahead of us on a local church level if we embrace the cross as our vision and mission. We will be multicultural and multigenerational and we will have churches all over America. But, the days of triumphalism are gone. Christendom is over and our influence on civil religion, even in the South, is coming to an end. We will return to being a pilgrim people without favor in the world and we will rediscover our roots and our dependence upon Christ alone. And, ultimately, that will be a very good thing.
Here is a question I have. Are the problems in the SBC unique to us? Are we declining faster than other conservative denominations? Slower? Same rate?
In other words, does the SBC have a problem, or does evangelicalism in America have a problem?
Since it is directly relevant to your question, I’ll post the same comment here that I just posted over at Alan’s personal blog:
Though there are, no doubt, a few issues that are specifically related to us as Southern Baptists, I think the biggest problem has to do with a general spiritual malaise among American Evangelicals at large, as well as in society around us. I wrote a post that explores some of the potential causes of this a few years ago here:
http://sbcimpact.org/2010/08/23/why-arent-more-people-being-saved-in-america-today/
Hard to tell, but I DO know that the percentage of members who attend church, in the biggest 6 areas of Alabama, is much lower in the SBC churches than other denominations combined.
I’ll also put in my two cents worth here: The Great Commission is to make disciples. we are failing at that. So why WOULD God continue to bless us when all we think about is getting people in the front door?
Nobody seems to be asking God what we’re doing that He doesn’t like, or what we’re not doing that He wants.
Tom Carpenter got it right.
My immediate evidence is only anecdotal. The church I pastor was at one time the largest, most happening church in town, clocking in over 800 one particular high attendance Sunday, seeing 500-600 on a regular basis. Those days are long gone and we’ve been in decline for several decades, most pronounced over the last 20 years. My church is located in a community with a few churches close by, two being particularly close: a Methodist church just down the street and an Advent Christian church also down the street. Our churches get together for worship a couple of times a… Read more »
Ironically the LDS, JW’s, 7th Day Adventists and Pentecostals seem to be doing well.
According to the JW’s, their rate of growth is slowing while their attrition rate is increasing. See: http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php
I think we are witnessing God retooling for the future. Laying aside one tool to pick up another one more prepared and suited to accomplish His mission.
I fear that in our desperation to turn things around we will keep baptizing younger and younger and lower the bar for what passes for a legitimate profession of faith qualifying one for baptism (if that’s possible).
What would our stats be if we factored in who many baptisms last year were rebaptisms, and then went back and deducted their previous baptism from the record? Just sayin’
KBH, How true! Good stuff.
Great article and overall a good assessment. Danny Akin said years ago that our convention has been a-theological. I agree with him. The younger generation wants depth and not the fluff. We must get back to our roots from the book of Acts. God-centered, Christ-focused, Spirit-empowered and gospel-saturated. Maybe our numbers will drive us to depend upon Him and not our man-made, man-centered, and man-focused methods to grow churches. I do pray that God grants us another opportunity as SBC local churches to get in on building His church.
Randy,
If what you say is correct, and I believe it is, we need to be serious about reaching and keeping these Southern Baptist youth and young adults. They seem to be, in many states, leaving the SBC for non-denominationalism or networks such as Acts 29. Something to think about as we move forward and hopefully move out of this decline.
Long time reader of this blog, first time responder. This is true, I personally spoke to a pastor of a church in my area that stated that he had to start studying his systematic theology books again, because his people were not being fully equipped to answer tough theological questions if they were confronted by a non-believer. Humility, evangelism, and honest alone time with God in study and prayer is what is needed today by many pastors. I believe that the attendance decline is a direct result of members being given the option of seeing the message on Sunday night… Read more »
This is an interesting article, but I believe it suffers from tunnel vision. In my opinion, most of this could probably be explained by demographics. Looking at the census data, the two smallest age cohorts are 20-24 and 25-29. See: http://nationalatlas.gov/articles/people/a_age2000.html Even if everything remained equal, the available pool of new adults is shrinking. Not only that, but that pool is marrying later, having fewer children, and of the children they are having, they are having them later. For the rest of our lifetime, we will never again see a Baby Boom like the 1950-59 cohort. And their kids in… Read more »
Rick, I spent several paragraphs talking about demographics. But, to say it is just that isn’t correct either. The Millenial Generation is approximately the same size as the Baby Boomers. They just don’t go to church. There are plenty of people available – 315 million or so in the United States compared to 250 million 25-30 years ago. WE are not reaching them now because we have gotten older. At this point, I think that the decline is going to hit critical mass as WE age and are just not able to do what we once did in the same… Read more »
. . . ‘THOUGH YOUR FOOTPRINTS WERE NOT SEEN’ ‘The waters saw you, O God, the waters saw you and writhed; the very depths were convulsed. The clouds poured down water, the skies resounded with thunder; your arrows flashed back and forth. Your thunder was heard in the whirlwind, your lightning lit up the world; the earth trembled and quaked. Your path led through the sea, your way through the mighty waters, though your footprints were not seen. You led your people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron.’ Psalm 77 (verses 16-20) The Holy Spirit will… Read more »
I will state my opinion in what I’ve witnessed in my area (West TN, David Worley might chime in on this since he’s not far from me) and that is the major mode of evangelism for years has been invitation to church and not much personal presentation of the gospel. Now what we have here has been a widening gap in social classes (and ages) and the majority of our church members have no clue how to cross cultural, social, and age barriers to reach the lost with the gospel. That, in this area, I believe has led to a… Read more »
THIS –> “a huge part of our problem is that we have spent a great deal of energy, resources, and time over the last several decades trying to protect our own way of life.” Alan, it may seem simple but the church needs to get back to the basics. Let us help our congregations love studying God’s word. Let’s help them be good at it. Let’s build/grow churches that are refueling daily on the meat of God’s word and not just the milk. Let’s hear less “by this time you ought to be teachers and instead hearing our people gushing… Read more »
from ALAN’s blog, ‘Downshore Drift’, this:
“It is not wrong to see solutions to problems, but we need to consider God’s will and ways and not our own.”
and this:
” You can only produce spiritual fruit in spiritual ways.
We cannot produce the Christ life apart from the power of the Holy Spirit.
We must embrace the Cross, humble ourselves, die to self, and be raised up in newness of life by the Spirit.
We all face challenges in our lives and relationships.
But, those challenges should drive us to Jesus.”
http://www.downshoredrift.com/downshoredrift/2013/01/producing-spiritual-fruit-in-spiritual-ways.html
Alan, I think the last paragraph in your reply speaks volumes. Should we seek to do the same thing as we once did in the same way? I remember attending a tent meeting when I was a very small little lad. Sawdust aisle, two week meeting, the whole bit. I grew up with week long revival meetings every spring and fall. Bible conferences were well attended and we all went to church camp every summer. My younger kids have never been to a week-long revival meeting or a Bible conference. Camp for them is usually a week-end retreat. They’ve been… Read more »
Rick,
I think we are in agreement. When talking about the past and what we once did, I was being descriptive – not saying we should try and get back to that. I am saying we should not.
And to that end, do we leave the future in the hands of The Young who are now going through our seminaries? Are we that brave? Or do we do as our fathers have done and frustrate the young by trying to make them do things the way we used to do it? Obviously, we would vote for the former, however, I have found that many nonconformists get really upset with you if you tell them you want to be a nonconformist as well, but not in the same way that they are nonconformists. 🙂 A lot of us like… Read more »
None of what you say even if it is true-and it may well be-really affects my church. We are in a sea change and it is just not Southern Baptists. The world is reaching its limits and prophecy is unfolding. We cannot stop the decline of a denomination even if we wanted to do so. All we can do is be faithful and seek the lost, not seek a place around the table of denominations. Interesting among the sad parade of statistics is the enormous response to Lottie Moon in a declining economy. The result of Alan’s and others’ post… Read more »
PS. Alan mentioned the fact that old people are tired and declining physically, much like we should be put out to pasture. I am sure he didn’t mean it like it sounds. This reflects a myth of youth that has taken hold of the denomination and the results of such are clear. Generational warfare has resulted in many church casualties. Check the demographics of who the lost are around your church. I did and I was surprised. Revival if it comes may well have a balding, even greying, look to it. It is true that we seldom find what we… Read more »
Frank, I am simply being realistic. I don’t want anyone “put out to pasture.” we should work with and listen to all generations. I am talking about what is actually happening. Many congregations are primarily filled with senior adults. For a variety of reasons, it will be difficult for them to reach their neighborhood or city, no matter how wonderful, dedicated, or prayerful they are. We need each other – old and young together. But, because we all seem to gravitate toward churches that meet our own personal preferences, the old and the young are largely worshipping in different churches… Read more »
Alan. I here what you are saying. It is not new. I have said it for years long before you were probably out of high school. I think it rates high on zeal but low on knowledge. You say old people are nice to have around. I do appreciate that. But then you say the key to revitalization is to replace me with a younger model. Do you not see somewhat of an inconsistency? Philosophers call that the egocentric predicament. I will grant you have part of the answer but not the whole. The young model you propose to replace… Read more »
PS–Alan, in case it isn’t clear, I’m with you. I’m on your side. I, too, see the problem. Go for it. God bless you. Thanks for the prodding post.
Frank, I am talking about the places where energy has ebbed and there is no growth or little ministry happening. Age doesn’t matter – energy level does. Ideally, all generations would work together.
“I am actually a huge advocate of church revitalization through replanting these churches with younger leadership and vision in a way that the old and young can work together. But, that takes both humility and patience for both”
There are a couple of local SBC church plants that are meeting in schools. It would seem that merging the new plant with another church that has an aging population and wonderful facilities would be a win-win. However, it always seems to come down to fear of what will change and who has the power to make those decisions.
That would be a great thing. We have to move beyond protecting ourselves and engage the world together for the sake of the Kingdom.
First, I think this is a grea idea. However, a huge issue needs to be addressed that is one of the key elements to this discussion. Without going into detail, older churches with aging congregations tend to have inward-focused ministries and younger churches with younger congregations tend to have more owtward-focused ministries. The former tends to require pastors to be spiritual caretakers and ceremonial leaders while the latter tends to require pastors to be evangelists. A robust ministerial vision for a church has significant elements of both where the pastor is required to be the primary equipper for the rest… Read more »
I’m totally against putting the mature Christians out to pasture.
I want you to know that I’ve still got it. Sometimes, I can’t remember where I put it, or what it is I’ve still got.
We had for years in our Southern Baptist churches not really lived as though we must live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds outbof the mouth of God. Consequently, the lost, including our own children and grandchildren, did not sense we really believed this “stuff.” We appeared to be just another religion and not radically changed as new creatures in Christ. I see a new generation of preachers coming along who preach as though they really believe the Gospel is the power unto salvation. Let’s not get all down and the dumps because some numbers are down,… Read more »
David,
You’re 100% correct when you say “We had for years in our Southern Baptist churches not really lived as though we must live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.”
But you then highlight just preaching. Would you crept the addendum to your fine comments that we need pastors who feed the congregation (preach) and teach them to cook (study deeply and faithfully)?
We have lost a proper understanding of the “local church” within the SBC. We know IMB, NAMB, CP and the local assn. We debate doctrine and who’s who in each SBC entity, but we don’t have clue how the local church works. Pastors don’t stay and churches look to a DOM to find them another one. The leadership in our churches often changes every 2-3 years. The church then seeks a new man to fill the empty seats. If the new man does this, a larger church steals him away with a promise of more pay or prominence. Members are… Read more »
Harold:
I love your idea about breaking out the old Convention Press material on church training. Would be like a cold drink of water from a deep canyon well.
Alas, I doubt seriously the SBC could reproduce and reissue that stuff without creating added tension among its current mix of handlers.
Nice to imagine though.
I’m convinced the problem in all SBC Churches is in and around the Altar area. I don’t care if anyone agrees with me or not, I am going to speak on what I think is the truth. When young children are sent to the altar by the parents or teachers and told they are saved, how can we expect anything different than a decline when those children become old enough to make their own decisions. There are some churches that record more Baptisms than they actually had. I have found this out by talking to folks in other churches. I… Read more »
“”Look, a child doesn’t know what sin is, or what conviction is””
Jess, you could not be more wrong!
Frank, I disagree, I think I couldn’t be more right. I’ve talked to I don’t know how many children, some was already members of a church, and they didn’t know what sin was, or repentence. I’ve seen several adults and teens get saved who were already members of a local church. The problem is in and around the alter area.
Frank, I challenge you to talk to some of the children in your church, casually, without them expecting anything. You will see I’m telling you the truth.
Jess. I have over 100 children in our ministry. I wish se of my adults had as pure and sincere devotion to Christ as the little ones I talk to every day.
I am thankful you were not my children’s pastor when they got saved.
By the way I will bet your knowledge of doctrine is not perfect and by your standard you are not saved. I am sure you disagree and that proves my point.
If you don’t want to address the issue, that’s fine.
Jess, I did address the issue and you insulted me. I even addressed your insult in regard to how I feel about children who are saved. What you do not address is: what is the benchmark of knowledge required to reach the threshold of salvation? You seem to believe there is some requisite level of knowledge. I would agree there is one also–but, I would add, I can only speculate what that might be because the Bible does not say. Here’s my deal: Paul said, “Believe ON the Lord Jesus.” (Emphasis mine). What does that mean? I take it to… Read more »
Frank, time will tell, it always does.’m glad you feel all warm and fuzzy.
Alen, I’m glad you addressed this issue with our denomination. The most difficult thing I have experienced in every SBC church since I was in the Youth Department (1970) was true numbers of our membership. I have a problem when we have a so-called member on the books that has not attended for 6 months to a year and we know nothing about them. They could have joined another church by statement and left their letter idle. Nothing is in the system to simply remove or try to locate them. That sounds harsh to many members because they feel they… Read more »
Bruce, amen.
We need revival, we need reformation, we need more fervor in evangelism, we need more discipleship, we need more people learning theology, we need more prayer, we need more this, more that, more blah, blah, blah… Well…maybe, and probably. But those kinds of generic statements aren’t going to resolve anything. Those things will always be the case, even when there is not decline. We either must wait on God or recognize that God is waiting on us. Like Bob Cleveland suggests, I think it is more the latter, given what we are or perhaps aren’t doing. God is always busy… Read more »
“””Being a pastor is a great gig.”””
Quite a judgmental rant. You obviously have never pastored a church.
Also, I did not notice any “personal responsibility” for the state of the Kingdom.
Easiest gig in the world is to be a critic.
Actually, the easiest gig is not to say anything at all and just hold the status quo. Critic is a step up from there.
I’m sure being a pastor is difficult. There are many jobs that are far easier. On the other hand, there are many jobs that are far more difficult. While being a pastor is a special calling, the difficulty of the job is not something to complain about any more than many other jobs. Just think of the jobs of high responsibility that you have held outside of being a pastor.
Jim:
I’ve been a pastor and a nonpastor. Believe me, being pastor is a “great” gig.
…and actually, Jonathan seemed to be an equal opportunity critic. Everyone got duly slammed. The thing is, I think his criticism is well placed.
Johnathan, that was quite an angry rant. Maybe we could just talk?
I am just talking. Talking about leadership. I don’t see how it was “angry” or “judgmental” at all. I am just pointing out what no one else has. Did I say “every”? No. I concluded that the general trend it what is at issue, and that no particular exception here and there, of which there certainly is exceptional pastors and churches, seminary professors and Convention leaders, overturns the general trend in which there is comfort and complacency to be found. Each sentence began with “maybe”. So, obviously, it entails “maybe not” in regards to all. Maybe, rather than seeing this… Read more »
Johnathan, There is one major problem that I see with your argument here as it relates to statistics, ministry, and the nature of discipleship. And that is that it is really hard to gauge the success of the ministry you are doing in the here and now with the statistics that are in the here and now. What I mean is that there is a time to reap and a time to sow. If it is a season of sowing and you fire all of the sowers because the reaping statistics are down–then that is wrong headed. You don’t really… Read more »
Well, I said they all need to evaluate themselves (even those who are doing well), and that may lead to improvement or getting out of the way. Why is that not obvious?
Is everyone who says they are called to this actually called to this? We all know that isn’t true.
If someone has been camped out for years and nothing has changed, then digging up examples from the OT to make justifications for a whole lot of nothing won’t cut it. IF, and only IF, people are honest with themselves.
Johnthan, being a pastor is a great gig. I’ve had to go to the doctor about six times in the past thirty five years just to have the smile cut from my face, The only problem I have is the guilt of making the big bucks for doing practically nothing. Johnthan, you wouldn’t even have to worry about taking your children to school of the morning, the deacons will take care of that for you. Your wife will never have to cook, the folks of the church will bring your breakfast, dinner, and supper every day. The pastor’s job is… Read more »
Lol… See? I can roll with you being smarmy towards me. I like it. 😉 Well, besides being facetious, I think that you still misunderstand what I meant by “great gig.” If sanctimony is a must, then fine. It is a noble calling, a great and difficult task to be undertaken. That still doesn’t mean all who have undertaken it have actually been called to it, or that those genuinely called dont need to evaluate themselves. We know God is at work, and it still goes back on finding out what we are or aren’t doing. One pastor has blamed… Read more »
Personally, I think we pew-sitters have taken enough grief and blame about how we need revived, etc. from all the Plattesque social media whining from our leaders. Maybe, just maybe, they can point at themselves for a change.
Ask anyone in any pew in any SBC church if they want to see folks come to Jesus, and grow in Him, and I bet you get a SINCERE yes from just about all of them.
I hate the term “pew sitters”. I hear it all the time but disagree with the term. People who are not ministers do not just sit in the pew as the term suggests. These people are deacons, work in the nursery, work in the kitchen during funerals and other occassions which are many in a church, they are the ones going out knocking on doors to invite people to church, and when disaster strikes, they are the first ones to volunteer to roll up their sleeves and clear the rubble for as long as it takes. The term “pew sitters”… Read more »
Debbie, I agree. I was using the term facetiously.
Johnathan, I must say, I agree with much of what you say.
I think it is important to hear from the pews. Sometimes
one can find the right answers in the congregation.
Jess. Pray tell what right answers to which you are referring. Also. Do you consider it possible that the problem is as much in the pews as the pulpit? Let me give an example: the pulpit in our church gives an average of 20% in offerings, or about 5% of the total. 85% of the pews give about 5-10% on average. So the pulpit plus 15% of the pews give 90 to 95% of the budget. The leadership and the pulpit teach and model giving. But many in the pews simply live in rebellion. I good give a similar example… Read more »
Frank L.
I am not suggesting that there is no problem at all in the pews. I believe there is problems in the pews.
Why is their problems in the pews?
Oh yeah, it goes back to leadership. If the pews ain’t following and are in rebellion, then the pastor has failed anyway.
Sorry mate, there is just no getting around the leadership issue here.
“One pastor has blamed folks for going to a church outside the community where stuff actually happens.” Directed toward my comments? If you’re talking about me, Johnathan, you aren’t even close. No blame applied on my part. My statement was that they’d rather drive 10 miles to have it done for them than stay in our local community and do it themselves. Statement of fact. Also, the fact is that every church in our area is in decline. All of them struggling. The big FBC in town can’t get enough workers for VBS. Why? It isn’t just the small churches… Read more »
Frank, all I’m saying is that we have to look at ourselves, judge ourselves and just maybe we can find the problem.
Not one time did you even indicate that you “might” be the problem.
Jess, You simply pick and choose what you want from peoples’ posts. I said more than once that I am not perfect and I get discouraged because I feel I am not achieving my goals for growth in the church. So, you make up stuff I did not say and then call me out on it. Yet, not one time did Johnathan even hint at the problem being in the pew. I gave you a solid example that discredits the proposition that churches (the SBC) is stagnant because of pastoral leadership. That simply is not a provable proposition. My staff… Read more »
I don’t really like the way that Jonathan said it, but I think he is right in most of what he said.
We do have an “effective pastor” and “effective seminary” problem. I think our seminaries are producing scholars who are mostly terrible at leading (heck, even relating to) people. If you can’t lead people you can’t be a good pastor.
I agree with this post completely, Matt Svoboda. I think Johnathan has some very valid points….
I’d only caution Johnathan that tactfully speaking the truth in love goes a lot further and attracts people to said truth than does untactful diatribes.
The sheep can’t be blamed but so much for the “ills” of the church….the shepherds have to take some (most?) of the blame – of course the Shepherd trainers are to blame too.
After all didn’t God say something like; “be slow to teach as you will fall under greater judgment.”
Tar Heel. What valid points did Johnathan make? That pastors aren’t perfect? Isn’t that stating the obvious? Is it valid to suggest that every pastor who does not measure up to some standard, which Johnathan does not state, should quit? I am sorry but I missed the valid points in his posts. It mat be that I could not hear because of his shouting. I think, on the other hand, Matt hits on an area that can be improved greatly. I made a specific proposal. I am putting my time and money into this proposal. There may be other proposals… Read more »
“Sheep” another term I hate for the same reasons listed above.
Debbie,
I understand what you mean relating to pew sitters as its usually derisive. I do not mean sheep derisively….in fct pastors are scripturally called under shepherds and believers are called sheep…we’re told to “shepherd the flock of God”. For these reasons, I think it’s an appropiate analogy.
I think one point that’s valid is that it seemed johnathan was trying to articulate what Matt said in his second paragraph above. Jonathan’s approach and verbiage is certainly not as appropiate as others…but it seemed that was among his points.
Tarheel
I said I agree wholeheartedly with Matt’s second paragraph and outlined what I would do, and am doing about it.
I think that is perhaps the “key” element in turning around our denomination. Some of our seminaries–I attended two–are trying and have been trying to remedy that situation for perhaps at least 25 years that I am aware of.
It is hard to address the taint of institutionalized training in a vocation that has foundations in journeyman training.
Yes, I agree that is a huge part of the problem.
Matt. I can accept that analysis in regard to seminary preparation. But that is a big jump to Johnathan’s conclusion. Take your post–and I don’t mean to stretch it to absurd limits– then Moses was a terrible leader. Except the Word tells us the wilderness outcome was the result of rebellion, not lack of leadership. Johnathan’s conclusions are simply wrong at worst or incomplete at best. As Joe pointed out, statistics cannot supply conclusions. As a veteran let me expand Joe’s analysis of statistics. Generals use numbers to formulate battle strategies. However, they also rely on recon from soldiers on… Read more »
Seems like you can disagree all day, but make all the silly claims about my points, dig up OT situations (I think I made THIS point already as well), and on and on and on. At the end of the day, what I said, regardless of how I said it, rings true because it is true. What kind of experience would you like me to have in order to be in a position to offer critiques? I am not trying to be a general. I am simply posing a notion that perhaps people in leadership need to evaluate themselves, and… Read more »
You make accusations and ungodly, unsubstantiated accusations based upon no facts and offering no substance.
When posed with direct questions of substance you return with dismissiveness and ad homonyn fallacies.
I get it. You have nothing to offer but criticism of facts I don’t know anyone disagrees with.
I’ll sum up thusly: your facts are wrong, your spirit is wrong, your conclusions are wrong and it would be wrong to continue a discussion with you.
You have the last word if you want it
Johnathan, you put forth some valid points in the accountability of leaders in relation to church growth. It’s my opinion (and it’s just an opinion), that what some of the others posting here in regards to that, is a lack of some congregations not wanting a pastor anymore in a sense, but are just wanting a preacher. Maybe putting it a better way, someone to do the work that a pastor does minus having to submit to his leadership in the direction of the church. Where does this come from? From years of pastors staying at a church 1-3 years… Read more »
David, You made a good statement when you said “we are still dealing with many congregations (mostly with bi-vocational pastors) that haven’t had real, stable leadership in so long, that they no longer even know how to submit to real leadership.” I’m glad you were able to highlight that this is most certainly a problem for some bi-vocational pastors. This is also the case when churches are hurt by pastors (another route to not “deeply invest in relationships”). I know how a pastor can act as a shepherd when his congregation doesn’t want leadership. But how is he to act… Read more »
Sad fact of the matter is a huge segment of Baptist churches have been conditioned over recent decades to expect short tenure from pastors as a normal cycle. They act and conduct themselves accordingly. Seminary training, denominational filtering, and the manipulation of pastoral ethics by charlatans have to take some of the responsibility for these reciprocal attitudes of mistrust between pastors and church members. I don’t think the “godlessness” of the folks in the pews is our only problem. Pastors come and go and the faces of congregations change. The spirit of the church remains where Christ is central. If… Read more »
David Gallimore, Sir, if I might ask, who are the we in your statement when you said we are still dealing with congregations (bi-vocational pastors), that haven’t had real, stable leadership, and no longer know how to submit to it. David, it sounds as though you have no idea what you are talking about. I submit to you that you don’t. I have been a bi-vocational pastor for 35 years, down on the front lines where the battles take place. Have you ever preached at a church where the deacons shot the windows out of it. If you haven’t, you… Read more »
Jess, if somehow what I stated offended you then I am truly sorry. The “we” I used was intended for the SBC as a whole. It was not my intention to single anyone out, especially bi-vocational pastors who have endured unspeakable trials and hardships while faithfully pastoring. My point was simply this, that there are many congregations who suffer from not having stability in leadership from the lack of some (and I mean some) pastors, not willing to stick with a church long enough to form a relationship with a congregation that will lead to them trusting his leadership. Once… Read more »
Jess, may I ask you without further offending you, that if you agree or disagree that it is a valid concern that I have stated? Aside from what you believe are qualifications for leadership?
David,
In some congregations leadership is extremely hard to achieve.
In some situations a pastor may never achieve it no matter how long he is there. I will grant you this, that sometimes it’s the pastors fault, sometimes it’s the congregations fault.
It would be wrong to place the blame on a preacher just because he is bi-vocational.
Oops put that last post under the wrong thread. 🙂
Dear Jeff: The folks who shot out the windows in the church I pastored were not the deacons; they were residents of a next door housing project where I made visits. Bivocationalism is no easy task. God surely has a special reward for His servants who serve in that capacity.
Thank you Jess, I am in total agreement with what you said. Perhaps I should have made my wording clearer in that I was not blaming the issue on bi-vocational pastors, but that it is something that you notice more in churches that have bi-vocational pastors (maybe because of the size??) It is definitely very easy to get discouraged as a bi-vo in a small or plateaued church. I would never by my intention to group someone as a whole, especially bi-vo pastors, I am one and my father was one for over 40 years before me. I am sorry… Read more »
dr. james Willingham,
Brother, how have you been doing? I haven’t heard from you in a while. You are missed very much.
Just saying.
And THIS is why I kick myself whenever I reply to anyting on SBC Voices. Or to be more accurate, why I usually end up regretting that I’ve subscribed to the comment stream in my Inbox.
It seems that invariably, the discussion always breaks down into personal attacks. It could be just the comments I’ve followed while all the rest remain charitable and considerate of one another, but I have my doubts. Is there any way to turn off a subscription so I don’t have to listen to the personal sniping?
There is a way to not subscribe to comments when you post one. You would have received an email asking that you confirm your desire to subscribe to the comments. Just keep that email. There’s a link where you can veiw your confirmations and turn them off if you no longer want to be subscribed. I’ve done it more than once.
I never subscribe to comments. I just come back here and check out what’s happening at my discretion.
You can reply without subscribing to comments.
I would call your use of “free fall” a provocative phrase but not accurate. Stetzer is right about the long, slow slog of the SBC’s baptisms. I predict a healthy increase next year but no change to the downward trend. It is a mistake to agonize too much about aggregate baptisms, membership, and attendance. There is very little that the Executive Committee or any national or even state SBC leader or entity can do. A few observations: 1. We will not be able to complain about toddler baptisms any longer since the Annual Church Profile no longer has a category… Read more »
William, a 5.5% decrease in a year to the lowest level since 1948 is a pretty big deal. If you don’t like “free fall,” I am open to other terms. But, it is significant. My guess is that it is only going to pick up. Are a third or more of our churches primarily filled with senior adults and consist of under 100 people that do not report any baptisms? This trend will continue, I think, until either the majority of those churches reboot or we hit some kind of floor in the decline.
I’m OK with “big deal” but merely further evidence of the long term trend of declining SBC baptisms. Baptisms increas about every third year for the last generation but have been steadily, slowly declining for decades. The graph found in the link below gives the proper picture:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2012/june/sbc-2011-statistical-realities–facts-are-our-friends-but.html
Although not “free fall” the percentage decline is the largest I can find with a quick search, although 5.5% is not exactly dropping off a table.
David, I didn’t look into the reason the categories were changed. Some state conventions may still collect data for <5 years.
That would be interesting to know. If anyone has any info about that, I sure would like to hear it.
William,
That is interesting about the ACP and the “Under 10” category. I was not aware of that. Have you heard anything about what might have been the motivation behind changing this?
And then there are those of us who are called to serve in churches where decline and difficulty are obvious. Our churches might best be named “The Church of Statistical Decline.” Many of us are bi-vocational. All of us would love to see our struggling churches turn around. Most of us are tired of pat answers as to how that can happen. There really are no “10 Easy Steps to Church Growth” or “7 Signs of a Happening Church” or “5 Things Every Leader Should Know” that will help us (With apologies to Thom Rainer). Sorry, but it’s NOT an… Read more »
Dale,
Someone else may have mentioned it, but the comments are pretty good about seeking blame rather than giving God glory so the message is buried. But thank you for bringing up the role God plays in shaping his Church and our responsibility for sticking with it in the face of adversity. I think that’s where most of our hearts are, but the admonition and encouragement needs to be vocalized more.
“……the comments are pretty good about seeking blame rather than giving God glory…..”
Maybe that’s just indicative of the human condition. Started with Adam and Eve, I think. Thanks for the comment, Jim.
One huge issue is the fact that most of our youth stop attending church within one year of graduating high school. The numbers vary but are never less than 50%. The SBC Family Live council reported the number at 88% back in 2002. Ken Ham addresses this in his book “Already Gone”. He accurately identifies many issues and proposes some solutions but does not go far enough. Ed Stetzer has commented about the fact that the faith that the faith of parents is not being effectively passed down to children. If you don’t believe the numbers, try tracking the youth… Read more »
In the context of my local church, one choice made by the vast majority of our parents has been to teach their children at home. In this group, Dad’s tend to be theologically savvy, there is a much higher than average instance of home worship and parents are highly motivated to provide a Biblically grounded life experience for their children (think Deut 6). One might be able to argue cause-and-effect, but the results are rather encouraging. From a study entitled : “94% of homeschoolers keep the faith and 93% continue to attend church after the high school years. But a… Read more »
please pardon my lack of proof-reading…
Is any of this research published outside of the $3 download on the NHERI site? I’d be very curious to see the research methods and the sample pool used to determine these numbers.
My personal experience with homeschoolers is pretty well documented on this site and others and would contrast greatly with the numbers you have cited, but I would be more than willing to read the research put together by this organization to see what credence it might deserve.
Ryan, I am not an expert. I am an advocate that sought out supporting research. Ken Ham speaks a bit on the issue of “why” young folks are leaving the church in his book “Already Gone” and it seems that his research into the problem is done very well, though I would disagree a bit with his proposed solutions. I am sure many would disagree with mine. I would think that the problem is well documented (i.e. youth leaving the church in large numbers). The conversation needs to be about how to address this issue and to have some way… Read more »
“. . . doing what we think is the most Biblical approach and it does seem to be bearing good fruit ”
it is written in the Bible, this:
“22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.”
Also consider… Barna Research found “…the reason why Christians are so similar in their attitudes, values and lifestyles to non-Christians is that they were not sufficiently challenged to think and behave differently – radically differently, based on core spiritual perspectives – when they were children. Simply getting people to go to church regularly is not the key to becoming a mature Christian. Spiritual transformation requires a more extensive investment in one’s ability to interpret all life situations in spiritual terms.” (link @ bottom) In an intentionally Christian homeschool environment this sort of “extensive investment” is much easier for parents to… Read more »
Donald,
This I good stuff. Thank you.
Our church is slowly learning to have an almost overwhelming burden for our children. Thank goodness for the power of the Holy Spirit.
“””Simply getting people to go to church regularly is not the key to becoming a mature Christian.”” Donald, I think those of us in the ministry over 30 or 40 years are painfully coming to the conclusion that “filling the pews with people is not the same as filling the people with God’s Spirit.” We have “innovated ourselves into oblivion almost.” I’m a fan of using any tool or strategy to help fulfill the Great Commission. I appreciate all that marketing can do to sharpen a church’s outreach effectiveness, but I think we have started seeing the tool as the… Read more »
PS–We started focusing on our children and youth ministries four years ago with increasing fervor.
The result: we have baptized as many adults as children because we are reaching the parents of the children.
We still have a long way to go, however, but the trend is nice.
“Last year I sent a letter to every evangelical church in the area giving the pastor the opportunity to send a family of kids to our school. Not one pastor responded with a recommendation.”
Wow…
We seldom realize that we are men of varied talents. The measure of faith each pastor has will only have a measure of results. Have you ever thought that abortions may have taken its toll on the ministry? There has been many a great pastor with great talent that never did enter this life.
I’m sure the SBC has made some mistakes or buried their talent in the ground. We must repent and pray the Lord of the harvest to send laborers into His harvest.
Just out of curiosity, when did my statement of certain positions being a “great gig” turn into a steady refrain in subsequent posts in response about being an “easy gig”? Were those my words? No. Did my words even imply that? No. It is a conflation of what I said and what Frank L. responded about being a critic being an “easy gig”. Of course, it isn’t actually easy being critic, since the critic makes few friends and must defend his criticism despite how obvious and obviously true it is (unless leaders care not a bit about THEIR “personal responsibility).… Read more »
I’ll take responsibility for picking up on “easy” and ignoring “great.” My apologies to you for misusing your words. That being said, your original comment certainly struck a chord because of your statement that “….the record suggests that many may need to bow out at every level since many have been presiding over decline and mediocrity and are incapable of doing anything about it (or they would have)…..” The fact is, Johnathan, that I regularly and systematically examine myself and my ministry. The results aren’t all that astounding. You then suggest that “….maybe it is time for the very people… Read more »
Well, we all believe God gives the increase. That’s the point. We can quote “in season and out of season” and other passages all day long, but that does absolutely nothing to overturn the idea that many leaders need to evaluate themselves and either improve or bow out. God indeed gives the increase. It’s what comes before that statement in Scripture that may be the issue because Paul didn’t say his planting and Apollos’ watering was absolutely meaningless by what he says in verse 7. In no other profession is the production of nothing tolerating, and I do bot think… Read more »
I don’t agree with the big time preachers either. Many of them seem to be a little out of touch with reality as well.
Well…you may be right about that. But they do tend to shape perception in this arena the way that news organizations shape perception in that arena.
First let me apologize for referring to Scripture in this comment, something you have already disdainfully cast aside as proof texting, but… It surprises me when we act surprised when Scripture comes to past. The Bible tells us certain things that we will see throughout history, things which should be all the more apparent the closer we draw to the coming of Christ. In an age of apostasy within and hardness without, it should not surprise us that faithful churches are shrinking. When the love of many grows cold and the lost can find a host of voices to tickle… Read more »
Amen! Well said, Chris.
Chris,
I would only add or commend that we always remember the American church is not the only church. Statements like “In an age of apostasy within and hardness without, it should not surprise us that faithful churches are shrinking” can be made of many nations. But there are some countries and continents seeing growth and progress.
I’m not sensing that you’ve made this mistake. I’m simply adding to your thought. 🙂
Joshua,
There are nations seeing an explosive growth of Pentecostalism, but I’m not sure if they are seeing growth in biblical Christianity. It becomes hard to determine which is on the rise.
To clarify myself: not general Pentecostalism but particularly the name-it-and-claim-it prosperity gospel variant.
I didn’t dismiss proof-texting in general. I dismissed the use of them for a particular reason. Namely, justifying failure. I am sorry, but a pastor who has camped out at a church for four to seven years and has had little to nothing happen in it is perhaps not the right man for the church, or is the right man but for another church, or something. However, numbers matter and faithfulness matters. Certainly they are not mutually exclusive. I do not think the two are separable in the way you suggest though. I am not utopian. Obviously, because in my… Read more »
Jonathan, A pastor friend has been keeping track of the stats for churches on the east part of our town. From what he’s seen, every single one of these churches has been stagnant or in various rates of decline for the last 10 years – including his, including mine. I know the pastors of each of these churches and many of them are good, godly, faithful men serving fervently and well. I’m afraid you will not convince me that each of these men belong in a different church, if they belong in ministry at all. The problem is not the… Read more »
Johnathan, you will have to excuse Dale and Frank, they sometimes forget to take their medication. They don’t say good things to anyone.
I think it’s just a bad attitude.
I’ll take that as a compliment, coming from you, Jess.
Jess. For the most part I take your posts with a grain of salt. Often it is like salt in a wound. Johnathan’s post is neither accurate in content nor seasoned with grace. It is demeaning to the many many pastors and leaders I know and have known for years. As I said being a critic is an easy gig. Anyone can curse the darkness. It takes much more to light a candle. Where are the facts to support such a sweeping generalization? What positive outcome from such an outburst? How does it make a godly pastor feel who already… Read more »
“”Gig””” from Merriam-Webster: an entertainer’s engagement.
Used of the calling of God upon a person’s life is derogatory and in bad taste and likely to cause an adverse reaction.
Seriously, please dispense with the sanctimony. Thanks.
Frank:
In linguistic fairness, I don’t think everybody uses Merriam Webster when they assign their own meaning to certain words. And everybody assigns personal meaning to words they speak or write.
“Gig” is also personally understood by many (both clerical and nonclerical) as simply nothing more than a generic reference to one’s job or vocation.
I reject the idea that another’s use of the word should be understood as being either “degorgatory” or “in bad taste” considering the context.
Seriously brother, people in other professions have to also deal with personal issues in the lives of others and themselves, as well as have to balance many things in their own lives. Of course, someone like an accountant also has to worry about getting fired for not getting it done. Pastors often do not, and will slum it while trudging up whatever models and proof-texts they can to justify the lack of much happening in their tenure. But, since you want to outright dismiss my observations and make it more personal, then okay. Fine. Tell your friends to quit their… Read more »
Johnathan, How about just answer the questions? Your kind are a dime a dozen who hover around ministry criticizing and comparing preachers to “musical entertainers” — not that I particularly have anything against musical entertainers. I’ve met many, many people like you who could not last one day in ministry talking as if being a Baptist pastor is comparable to being an “accountant” — again, not that I have anything against accountants. Those that can do–those that can’t criticize. Your tone is not only repugnant, it is ignorant. Case in point, “Pastors often do not have to worry about getting… Read more »
I’ve met many, many people like you who could not last one day in ministry talking as if being a Baptist pastor is comparable to being an “accountant” — again, not that I have anything against accountants.
I served as a bi-vo pastor and an accountant, for what it’s worth. 🙂
Joe:
#twobirdsonestone
(grin)
Joe, I remember you being an accountant and had you in mind when I made that statement. It is also why I referenced you remark in regard to statistics. I also knew you had served as a bi-vocational pastor, which in part, is why I so highly value your insight. Out of a total of 37 years of ministry I have served all but 13 as a bivo. I admit, I never was an accountant. But, I do have four accountants on my Finance Team and my Executive Assistant is an accountant. One accountant is a CFO of one of… Read more »
First, I didn’t compare pastors to accountants. And, I am not an accountant. I suggested that people in other professions, like accountants, deal with similar things in their own lives in regards to the personal issue they have with their friends and family, as well as their own, and have to balance things like prayer, etc. in their lives as well. I do realize that some pastors do worry for their jobs. But, generally speaking, pastors with little to show for their ministry by and large leave churches for other ones more than they get fired. How often do pastors… Read more »
There are two things that I have seen in at least a dozen different churches so I feel alright expanding it to include most churches in the Southern Baptist convention. One, why do we count baptisms? My wife joined my church when we got married. My pastor didn’t require her to get rebaptized so she counted as a member but not as a baptism. I have seen several churches that are growing and expanding but they aren’t baptizing because most of their new membership is those who have left another denomination or had previously left another SBC church. So these… Read more »
Bill: I don’t think your math is lying to you. LOL.
Not even close to 16 million.
Alan, the SBC was growing (annual membership) up to about 2000, plateaued until about 2006, and slightly declining since. We have been in a real statistical decline since Nancy Pelosi was elected Speaker of the House of Representatives in 2007.
I admit to doing my part in this in 2011 when we did a membership review and dropped about one fourth of our total membership.
Early June is our scheduled time for annual handwringing. Let the declaiming, despair, and despondency proceed…
“Statistics mean never having to say you’re certain.”
-Marge N. O’vera, Statistician
Seriously, just because someone cites a decline in statistics does not prove that they know what those statistics mean. William has cited several reasonable explanations that could provide insight as to why these statistics are what they are. In short, it may not yet be time for the “Whoopee-the-SBC-is-in-decline. That-proves-that-our-right-wing political-stance-on-issues-has-offended-people-and-perverted-the-gospel” crowd to begin patting each other on the back. I wouldn’t start celebrating just yet.
I remember a pastor speaking at the Pastors conference several years ago. He cam to the mic right after a video and pep talks by denominational leaders seeking to encourage churches to “baptize X number of people over the next few years” (I do not remember the specifics.) What I do remember is that pastor calmly and lovingly saying that the goal was ambitious and delightful…but he’d like to see some encouragement to actually ensure that the people baptized in pursuit of that goal were actually saved. He then preached a message concerning the power of God to Salvation being… Read more »
Tarheel, good stuff.
I think as long as we basically have two Sunday Schools, the 10:00 A.M. and 11:00 A.M. services there will be a decline in Baptisms. At 11:00 folks wants some good preaching, loud and powerful. The choir shouldn’t put folks to sleep either. When folks get excited about what they have, then they become willing to share it. For years, when I see a church with a cemetery behind it or beside it, I think, how appropriate. The bodies in the building and in the cemetery are dead. Those dry bones need to come alive. I’m glad that Jesus is… Read more »
Wow a thread over 100 posts that does not really mention Calvinism! Who would have thought! Anyway, in looking at this decline, I think we as SBC folk have to start asking ourselves where are these people going? There are several options: 1) Are we loosing members mostly through attrition (ie older members dying, no younger members entering the church)? This is a real possibility. The greatest generation is all but gone, and the baby boomer generation is starting to decline as well. These two large pools of members are hard to replace in the churches. It cannot happen simply… Read more »
PS…sorry for the numerous spelling and grammatical mistakes. I wrote this rather than going to bed, which I think I now shall go do.
Despite your sleep deprivation, some good, solid points and analysis.
“””your church isn’t doing anything,””””
How would somebody know this if they don’t even know where my church is or what we are–or are not doing.
Sad.
Well, you had stated earlier I have no idea if you fit the profile of those people whom I supposedly have “contempt”. You are exactly right. So why in the world you took my post to mean YOU is quite telling. What about the beginning of every sentence in my initial post with the word “maybe” do you not understand? Of course, I did not display any contempt for anyone or anything. All I ever said was that the general decline problem may be tied to a general failure of church and institutional leadership and that leaders ought to examine… Read more »
Jonathan,
Please excuse Frank, he hasn’t had his prunes today.
I would like to offer some thoughts, anonymously. Why so secretive? Well, I pastor a small rural church and I do not intend to point particular fingers or “name names” as is so often desired. If my name were on this post people would think I was attacking them. I’m not, just stating what I’ve seen. However, what I say can probably be found in communities all across the nation. In fact, the “Oregon Guy,” Dale, pointed towards this reality as have others. One gentleman noted above the typical life-span of pastors with churches. Had he continued to develop that… Read more »
I have been out of circulation for several weeks due to a move, a heart problem, and etc. But one of the things that has occurred to me is that we are dealing with a society that has grown intensely hostile to the Christian Faith. Moreover, secularism has become the controling force in our educational, judicial, political, and other systems, a secularism that is inimical to the supernaturalism of the Bible and the Gospel. The minister is being drummed out of the public arena and religion is fast becoming a private affair, a belief and behavior system not allowed to… Read more »
Dr Willingham,
Glad to see you back. Missed you.
Thank you brother Pemberton. I did not think I would make it back. In fact, when my problem occurred, I thought i was dying. The doctor said later that the defibilator saved my life. One never knows what God has appointed….or when or where or how? But I am thankful anyway.
Great to hear from you Dr Willingam. You have been missed. I’m sure that in all you have been doing you have also been praying for the next Great Awakening. 🙂 For that I am grateful.
Thank you, Dean. I have sought to continue to pray for the Third Great Awakening all during my difficulties, but there were some days in which I failed to do so (five days in a hospital will punch a hole in one’s prayer life, except for pleading for God’s help). However, as soon as I was home and able, I continued to pray for such and will continue until God answers. The future of His work, as Adoniram Judson said, “is as bright as His promises.” At least that is what my poor memory tells me.
I hope you are feeling better now, Dr. Willingham. I will keep you in my prayers. God Bless.
Dr Willlingham, The media has an underlying hostility toward Christianity, too. Though they are not as vocal (yet) and they continue to “entertain” satan’s propaganda through every medium at every age level, they will desire to appeal to the audience that continues to go the way of Sodom & Gomorrah. Once it becomes popular again to publicly condemn Christians they will think of a means of entertainment to turn our TV’s into a coliseum and feed us to the lions. You are right, we need to wake up. Every believer needs to do some “self-equipping” NOW before the “SBC Titanic”… Read more »
Bruce, the greatest help that I have found in praying for the changes desired, especially that of such a visitation as a Third Great Awakening, is derived from Jonathan Edweards, Humble Attempt, which lists perhaps a 100 promises/prophecies of such a possibility. This, by the way, is the tract that inspired William Carey, Andrew Fuller, and others to pray for and then to launch the Great Century of Missions. I think it can continue to serve a like purpose today. I prepared messages on the subject of Awakenings, making use of the texts cited by Edwards in that tract. It… Read more »
Dr. J! We’re glad you’re back! I asked just the other day about you, and several of us have been wondering where you were. Glad you are now well. Hope that you’re rested and to get back at it, brother. You’ve been missed!
Appreciate your interest Brother Pugh. However, well is another question. My heart went into arrythmia (aphib) ( I can’t spell these terms and my dictionary is lost among 15,000 volumes of books setting in two rooms and the basement (thank God for 50 members of one church and about 20 of another that pitched in and moved us). Anyway, my heart is continuing with the help of a pacemaker, defibilator and a new stent (sp?). My heart’s desire is to see these blogs began to focus on prayer for a Third Great Awakening, a visitation, a coming down of Heaven… Read more »
Perhaps James,
The new reality may very well be an American society in which a more individualistic and personal approach (private) to the Christian faith is carried out under the constraints of law.
Won’t bode well, I admit, for demoninational and doctrinal collectives like the SBC, but could also be the starting point for some kind of awakening.
It would not be the first time in history that Christians (due to circumstances beyond their control) have been driven to such a point.
There is a generation of young leaders who no longer self identify as SBC. Too much inward thinking, too much wishing for the past to come back, too much organizational overhead all combined to give them little reason to stay. The response of the SBC for the most part was “good riddance”. That chicken is now coming home to roost.
If the convention were turned over to these “young leaders” you speak of it would be dead in a year.
The great hope of youth is largely a myth.
God in his Word has a very high view of age–He is quite old by human standards. I think He despises generational wars more than any other struggle in church life.
The entire church growth movement is discovering the myth of youth as these churches get older.
Truth be told, Frank, the generations are interdependent. We can learn and find help from every generation, if we are willing to pay the price to listen.
No argument with that Dr. J.
My greatest grief, Frank, has been my failure to listen.
“He (God) is quite old by human standards”
He is ‘ever new’, if you understanding that He is ‘Being Itself’ . . . being constantly ‘generated’ anew as the Source of all in existence, and all existence could cease to be, yet He would remain undiminished in His Being . . . hard to fathom, impossible to fathom
‘ever ancient’ and yet ‘ever new’ is the way St. Augustine attempted to describe God, but it was only an attempt 🙂
That still sounds pretty old in “human standards” 🙂
I remember when the same thing was happening during the “Jesus People” movement of the late 60’s and early 70’s. I wasn’t even a teenager when it was going on, but I remember the same song being sung back then.
Dave You will most likely disagree vehemently with me on my response to your post, and I don’t comment regularly as my viewpoint is typically divergent from a vast majority of your posters – but here I go. First, I think the SBC is having trouble due to its warrior nature since the CR. We have always said that were against the ends justify the means mentality – until a majority in the SBC were for it in the CR. As a result many good conservative people lost jobs or were totally marginalized just because they were not card carrying… Read more »
Eric, there is a lot of reality in what you have written. The problem with our new returnees to biblical orthodoxy is that they still have a long way to go. You are quite right that some of them used the end justifies the means to accomplish the goal of a conservative resurgence, and that is truly sad. People get hurt, badly hurt. some I suspect perish. What the Bible believers fail to realize, I count myself as one who voted conservative everytime, is that even the most Bible believing professor and practioner can hide the heart of a hypocrite… Read more »
Lord, I hope the SBC isn’t nostalgia for the 1950’s. Next to the civil war, that was probably the most wicked era in American History. “The Sixties were no fouler a decade than the Fifties—they merely reaped the Fifties’ foul harvest—but they were the years when millions of people grew aware that the industrial society had become paradoxically unlivable, incalculably immoral, and ultimately deadly. In terms of passwords, the Sixties were the time when the word progress lost its ancient holiness, and escape stopped being comically obscene.” – Peter S. Beagle Everything we loathe about contemporary American culture came from… Read more »
“…seems that very few admit it” I don’t admit it. That seems to be a myopic view of US history. BTW, I don’t know of anyone who is nostalgic for the 50’s. I don’t really know anybody who remembers the 50’s outside of being in grammar school. Were they the 2nd “most wicked era”? Hardly. Manifest Destiny? Trail of tears? Indian wars? 90 years of slavery under Ol’ Glory before the War Between the States? The wickedness in the mid 19th century was widespread. Consider the fruit of 1,000,000 dead because the majority would not let 11 member states leave… Read more »
Jonathan, the nostalgia within the SBC for the 1950’s has been readdressed by the CR.
There are those currently within the SBC who prefer that any new nostalgia be reflective of 1850 and prior.
The exit of the younger generation of leaders from SBC life is not primarily a matter of power but of the priorities and nostalgia of the leadership.
Yeah, my generation said the same thing 20-30 years ago. Every generation thinks it’s facing an uphill battle against the old guard who doesn’t want to change. That’s been a problem since Noah’s three boys got off the Ark.
Dale, I laughed, when I read your comment about Noah’s boys getting off the Ark. Thanks for a little relief.