This was originally posted at Alan’s site, Downshore Drift.
SBC In Free Fall? How Far Will the Decline Go and Why Aren’t We Talking About This?
5.5% decline in baptisms from 2011 to 2012 making this the worst year for baptisms since 1948. We now require 50 members of SBC churches to see 1 baptism per year. There are 105,000 less members than the year before. 188,000 less in worship attendance. We now have less than 16 million members and less than 6 million in worship. We have all known that the 16 million number is false and has been for some time. It might legitimately be half that. But, no matter how you look at it, the number is going down.
Thom Rainer recently tells us that only 15% of Millennial Generation born between 1980 and 2000 are Christians.
Frank Page responds with “God forgive us and God help us.”
The larger culture, even in the South, is throwing off its Christian influence in dramatic and remarkable fashion. It seems that the SBC, even though we are the still the largest Protestant denomination in North America, is having little impact on the culture. At least not overtly.
We have 270 more churches in 2012 than we had in 2011, so that is good. Kind of. New churches can take a while to gain traction and begin to reproduce. They are also largely made up of energetic and passionate people who were in other churches. Are we seeing a “brain drain” from established churches to plant new ones that are having spotty evangelistic impact overall? The question needs to be asked.
Why is this happening? Theories abound from the usual, “We aren’t working hard enough” to “We don’t care enough” to Calvinism to non-Calvinism, etc. Lots of finger pointing. I saw one leader tweet that it isn’t that we don’t care, it is that we don’t know “how” to do evangelism. Apparently, the answer is more training.
I asked Ed Stetzer, head of Lifeway Research, what he thought about the decline and the reasons behind it. Ed told me that we were just seeing the continuation of a 50 year trend of slowing growth and then decline. When Ed first told the SBC that a few years ago, he got a good deal of push back. I imagine those voices are silent now in light of the overwhelming evidence.
It is interesting that there has not been more reaction in the Baptist blogosphere/twittersphere the past couple of days. If this had happened a few years ago, say pre-GCR, there would have been no end to the blog posts, pronouncements, and articles on the subject. But, Baptists are strangely quiet in comparison. Why?
I think that we have fired or are in the process of firing all our bullets. We don’t know what to do. The GCR might prove to be the last concerted effort that Baptists are able to muster in our present iteration. The GCR had good ideas, but it didn’t gain traction because it was a top-down effort largely focused on NAMB and freeing up money for more church planting. Well, we are seeing more churches planted (which is good) but overall decline everywhere else. The GCR stopped short of what was needed.
We voted for a name change last year (barely) that has not been brought up again by anyone anywhere. We spent a whole year with a committee studying what our new name would be for those who wanted to use it. The committee discovered that the SBC could not actually change its name because of legal issues. So, we came up with a nickname – Great Commission Baptists. Nothing changed.
This year, we had a committee study Calvinism and its discontents. A report was issued last week from the committee. Little buzz was generated as it didn’t really say anything that we don’t already know and are largely rejecting – we need to focus on what unites us and get along. The truth is, many Baptists don’t want to get along on this issue and a report from a Calvinism peace committee isn’t going to change that. Daggers are drawn.
Meanwhile, the SBC is getting older. That is the real issue. New church plants cannot keep up with rapid aging of the denomination. Many churches are made up primarily of senior adults and they do not have the energy or ability to revive their churches. A church that was rather large in my own city 15 years ago with an amazing facility along a main thoroughfare is now down to about 200 senior adults and very few children. If you drive past it, the building is very impressive. But, they are no longer capable of reaching their neighbors and community. This is just one example, but it is happening all over the SBC and is the reason for the decline, in my opinion.
More and more young people are getting involved in the Convention. That is good. But, there are not enough of them to replace the generation that is growing old and tired and that can no longer carry the burden the way that they once did. We can get all hands on deck and all pray and work hard and be devoted and still not have the growth and strength that we had in 1995 or 1975 or 1965. The demographics are against us and time stops for no man.
That said, a huge part of our problem is that we have spent a great deal of energy, resources, and time over the last several decades trying to protect our own way of life. We became motivated to engage the larger culture when we sense a threat to the life that we had marked out for ourselves. Often, we used God and theology to construct churches and organizations that would protect us and our own place in the world instead of propelling us out into the world in sacrificial love with the gospel. Viruses like racism and consumerism and individualism made us sick with self and we lost our zeal and desire to lay down our lives for God and others. We cannot serve God and serve ourselves at the same time. We cannot love the lost while consistently thinking about our own personal preferences. We are called to die to self, take up our cross and follow Christ. That still needs to happen.
We need refreshing and renewal and joy and to get in touch with our Savior in a way that we can stand in His grace and hear His voice and discern where He will lead us next. We do need theological and ecclesiological renewal, but along with that, we need a renewal of the heart and of love and relationships and practice and ethics. We cannot get back the power we once had. We shouldn’t even try. The past is past and our former “glory” is fading. Honestly, I see that as a good thing in some ways. The good news is that Christ making all things new and He has a way forward for us in the future. We might not be as big as we once were, but that does not mean that we cannot or will not be fruitful if we abide in Christ. We might be more so.
Our churches on the local level have to seek out where God is working in their neighborhoods and cities. We have to learn to love God and love people everywhere we go. We have to find ways to build relationships and work together where we are. We need to network together to plant churches and equip the saints and be salt and light in our local cultures. We cannot look to our denominational entities to save us or to turn the ship around. They have been trying and it isn’t working. We don’t need to wait for our seminaries and for NAMB to solve our problems. We are called to address our communities and the people in front of us and hold out life to them. We need to experience that life ourselves.
I think that the SBC is going to get a good bit smaller over the next 10 to 15 years. I can see official membership dropping below 10 million and worship attendance dropping below 5 million. I can see baptisms leveling out around 250,000 a year. But, that won’t be because God isn’t working or because great things aren’t happening. It will be because a generation died. We will have to reform and regroup and reposition ourselves for the future. The SBC will continue and will be strong, but it will be downsized – for a while.
Honestly, I think that the SBC’s best days can be ahead of us on a local church level if we embrace the cross as our vision and mission. We will be multicultural and multigenerational and we will have churches all over America. But, the days of triumphalism are gone. Christendom is over and our influence on civil religion, even in the South, is coming to an end. We will return to being a pilgrim people without favor in the world and we will rediscover our roots and our dependence upon Christ alone. And, ultimately, that will be a very good thing.
Here is a question I have. Are the problems in the SBC unique to us? Are we declining faster than other conservative denominations? Slower? Same rate?
In other words, does the SBC have a problem, or does evangelicalism in America have a problem?
Since it is directly relevant to your question, I’ll post the same comment here that I just posted over at Alan’s personal blog:
Though there are, no doubt, a few issues that are specifically related to us as Southern Baptists, I think the biggest problem has to do with a general spiritual malaise among American Evangelicals at large, as well as in society around us. I wrote a post that explores some of the potential causes of this a few years ago here:
http://sbcimpact.org/2010/08/23/why-arent-more-people-being-saved-in-america-today/
Hard to tell, but I DO know that the percentage of members who attend church, in the biggest 6 areas of Alabama, is much lower in the SBC churches than other denominations combined.
I’ll also put in my two cents worth here: The Great Commission is to make disciples. we are failing at that. So why WOULD God continue to bless us when all we think about is getting people in the front door?
Nobody seems to be asking God what we’re doing that He doesn’t like, or what we’re not doing that He wants.
Tom Carpenter got it right.
My immediate evidence is only anecdotal. The church I pastor was at one time the largest, most happening church in town, clocking in over 800 one particular high attendance Sunday, seeing 500-600 on a regular basis. Those days are long gone and we’ve been in decline for several decades, most pronounced over the last 20 years.
My church is located in a community with a few churches close by, two being particularly close: a Methodist church just down the street and an Advent Christian church also down the street. Our churches get together for worship a couple of times a year and the pastors will occasionally meet for a chat, so we’re able to keep up.
The Methodist church is almost nonexistent today. Congregation has dropped to a very small handful and the last I heard they have not yet been given a new pastor.
The Advent Christian church is about where we are, if not a little better – declining over the years, not seeing growth, not seeing an impact in the community.
One community, three churches, very close proximity, three different denominations, three ministry styles and theological assumptions, yet one common pattern of decline.
We are certainly not the only ones.
Ironically the LDS, JW’s, 7th Day Adventists and Pentecostals seem to be doing well.
According to the JW’s, their rate of growth is slowing while their attrition rate is increasing. See: http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php
I think we are witnessing God retooling for the future. Laying aside one tool to pick up another one more prepared and suited to accomplish His mission.
I fear that in our desperation to turn things around we will keep baptizing younger and younger and lower the bar for what passes for a legitimate profession of faith qualifying one for baptism (if that’s possible).
What would our stats be if we factored in who many baptisms last year were rebaptisms, and then went back and deducted their previous baptism from the record? Just sayin’
KBH, How true! Good stuff.
Great article and overall a good assessment. Danny Akin said years ago that our convention has been a-theological. I agree with him. The younger generation wants depth and not the fluff. We must get back to our roots from the book of Acts. God-centered, Christ-focused, Spirit-empowered and gospel-saturated. Maybe our numbers will drive us to depend upon Him and not our man-made, man-centered, and man-focused methods to grow churches. I do pray that God grants us another opportunity as SBC local churches to get in on building His church.
Randy,
If what you say is correct, and I believe it is, we need to be serious about reaching and keeping these Southern Baptist youth and young adults. They seem to be, in many states, leaving the SBC for non-denominationalism or networks such as Acts 29. Something to think about as we move forward and hopefully move out of this decline.
Long time reader of this blog, first time responder. This is true, I personally spoke to a pastor of a church in my area that stated that he had to start studying his systematic theology books again, because his people were not being fully equipped to answer tough theological questions if they were confronted by a non-believer. Humility, evangelism, and honest alone time with God in study and prayer is what is needed today by many pastors. I believe that the attendance decline is a direct result of members being given the option of seeing the message on Sunday night online, and not getting up to physically go into the church building. Just my thoughts.
This is an interesting article, but I believe it suffers from tunnel vision. In my opinion, most of this could probably be explained by demographics. Looking at the census data, the two smallest age cohorts are 20-24 and 25-29. See: http://nationalatlas.gov/articles/people/a_age2000.html Even if everything remained equal, the available pool of new adults is shrinking. Not only that, but that pool is marrying later, having fewer children, and of the children they are having, they are having them later. For the rest of our lifetime, we will never again see a Baby Boom like the 1950-59 cohort. And their kids in the 35-44 range represents the peak of population density at least for the foreseeable future. So of course the numbers are going to go down. It’s simply a function of population dynamics.
Rick, I spent several paragraphs talking about demographics. But, to say it is just that isn’t correct either. The Millenial Generation is approximately the same size as the Baby Boomers. They just don’t go to church. There are plenty of people available – 315 million or so in the United States compared to 250 million 25-30 years ago. WE are not reaching them now because we have gotten older.
At this point, I think that the decline is going to hit critical mass as WE age and are just not able to do what we once did in the same way.
. . . ‘THOUGH YOUR FOOTPRINTS
WERE NOT SEEN’
‘The waters saw you, O God,
the waters saw you and writhed;
the very depths were convulsed.
The clouds poured down water,
the skies resounded with thunder;
your arrows flashed back and forth.
Your thunder was heard in the whirlwind,
your lightning lit up the world;
the earth trembled and quaked.
Your path led through the sea,
your way through the mighty waters,
though your footprints were not seen.
You led your people like a flock
by the hand of Moses and Aaron.’
Psalm 77 (verses 16-20)
The Holy Spirit will come, if He is wanted.
I will state my opinion in what I’ve witnessed in my area (West TN, David Worley might chime in on this since he’s not far from me) and that is the major mode of evangelism for years has been invitation to church and not much personal presentation of the gospel. Now what we have here has been a widening gap in social classes (and ages) and the majority of our church members have no clue how to cross cultural, social, and age barriers to reach the lost with the gospel. That, in this area, I believe has led to a decline. Not to mention the competition of sports, school events, hunting, fishing etc. that has the hearts of many people.
THIS –> “a huge part of our problem is that we have spent a great deal of energy, resources, and time over the last several decades trying to protect our own way of life.”
Alan, it may seem simple but the church needs to get back to the basics. Let us help our congregations love studying God’s word. Let’s help them be good at it. Let’s build/grow churches that are refueling daily on the meat of God’s word and not just the milk. Let’s hear less “by this time you ought to be teachers and instead hearing our people gushing about their study of God.
I really do think that the sanctify work of the Holy Spirit will craft the church into His sword once His people love the Word.
from ALAN’s blog, ‘Downshore Drift’, this:
“It is not wrong to see solutions to problems, but we need to consider God’s will and ways and not our own.”
and this:
” You can only produce spiritual fruit in spiritual ways.
We cannot produce the Christ life apart from the power of the Holy Spirit.
We must embrace the Cross, humble ourselves, die to self, and be raised up in newness of life by the Spirit.
We all face challenges in our lives and relationships.
But, those challenges should drive us to Jesus.”
http://www.downshoredrift.com/downshoredrift/2013/01/producing-spiritual-fruit-in-spiritual-ways.html
Alan, I think the last paragraph in your reply speaks volumes. Should we seek to do the same thing as we once did in the same way?
I remember attending a tent meeting when I was a very small little lad. Sawdust aisle, two week meeting, the whole bit. I grew up with week long revival meetings every spring and fall. Bible conferences were well attended and we all went to church camp every summer.
My younger kids have never been to a week-long revival meeting or a Bible conference. Camp for them is usually a week-end retreat. They’ve been to far more concerts than I ever went to and have been on more short-term mission trips that I ever did at their age.
I was trained in EE and have done door-to-door evangelism (which questionable effectiveness). I doubt that my kids will ever do such a thing. However, I did have a daughter who took a gap year between high school and college to spend it working with a Bible translation team in India, Myanmar, and Thailand.
You are correct that as we are just not able to do what we once did in the same way. Nor do I think we should.
My grandparents lamented the decline in our generation because there weren’t any camp meetings any more. No one had all-day services on Sunday with diner on the ground any more. Singspirations were nearly unheard of. We just shook our heads and said they just don’t get it. Times have changed.
Hopefully, we’re not echoing our grandparents’ sentiment, are we?
Rick,
I think we are in agreement. When talking about the past and what we once did, I was being descriptive – not saying we should try and get back to that. I am saying we should not.
And to that end, do we leave the future in the hands of The Young who are now going through our seminaries? Are we that brave? Or do we do as our fathers have done and frustrate the young by trying to make them do things the way we used to do it?
Obviously, we would vote for the former, however, I have found that many nonconformists get really upset with you if you tell them you want to be a nonconformist as well, but not in the same way that they are nonconformists. 🙂 A lot of us like to think of ourselves as “innovators” when what we are really doing is just now entering the 21st Century.
Let’s just say that if using PowerPoint slides instead of a hymnal is a controversial issue in your church, then just maybe the times passed you by a decade or two ago. And this is the most trivial of issues. So what does it say of the “real” controversies? (And I don’t mean Calvinism – however much we want to think that is a contemporary issue, it is older than the SBC itself.)
None of what you say even if it is true-and it may well be-really affects my church.
We are in a sea change and it is just not Southern Baptists. The world is reaching its limits and prophecy is unfolding. We cannot stop the decline of a denomination even if we wanted to do so.
All we can do is be faithful and seek the lost, not seek a place around the table of denominations.
Interesting among the sad parade of statistics is the enormous response to Lottie Moon in a declining economy.
The result of Alan’s and others’ post like these is likely to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Alan’s post makes the assumption even if only implied that the decline of the Convention is correlated to a decline at the local church level.
That may be anecdotally provable but may not be true.
My church seems poised for a new wave of God’s movement after decades of malaise. This is inspire of a general trend toward decline in regard to spirituality in the culture.
I hope I don’t miss the wave.
PS. Alan mentioned the fact that old people are tired and declining physically, much like we should be put out to pasture. I am sure he didn’t mean it like it sounds.
This reflects a myth of youth that has taken hold of the denomination and the results of such are clear. Generational warfare has resulted in many church casualties.
Check the demographics of who the lost are around your church. I did and I was surprised.
Revival if it comes may well have a balding, even greying, look to it. It is true that we seldom find what we are looking for if we look in the wrong place
Frank, I am simply being realistic. I don’t want anyone “put out to pasture.” we should work with and listen to all generations. I am talking about what is actually happening. Many congregations are primarily filled with senior adults. For a variety of reasons, it will be difficult for them to reach their neighborhood or city, no matter how wonderful, dedicated, or prayerful they are. We need each other – old and young together. But, because we all seem to gravitate toward churches that meet our own personal preferences, the old and the young are largely worshipping in different churches now. The generational divide among churches has largely gone unmentioned and it is creating a situation where thousands of churches are not going to have the energy that they need to retool and grow.
I am actually a huge advocate of church revitalization through replanting these churches with younger leadership and vision in a way that the old and young can work together. But, that takes both humility and patience for both/
Alan. I here what you are saying. It is not new. I have said it for years long before you were probably out of high school.
I think it rates high on zeal but low on knowledge.
You say old people are nice to have around. I do appreciate that. But then you say the key to revitalization is to replace me with a younger model. Do you not see somewhat of an inconsistency? Philosophers call that the egocentric predicament.
I will grant you have part of the answer but not the whole. The young model you propose to replace me with would not likely survive the transition.
My so in law is my associate pastor. He is well trained and a great guy and devoted believer. I would turn the church over to him in a minute and go out to pasture. He would not be able to carry the load even though he is half my age.
Most seminary graduates are young. Why do we graduate thousands of young preachers that result in few church plants and many disastrous first pastorates.
Chasing youth is a deadly myth. That as much as anything is part of the problem. I did it for years. It is an inadequate strategy
By the way, your analysis of the demographics of mills and busters leaves out an important aspect–busters have the money. If you think that is just a worldly observation–we’ll, good luck
PS–Alan, in case it isn’t clear, I’m with you. I’m on your side. I, too, see the problem. Go for it. God bless you. Thanks for the prodding post.
Frank, I am talking about the places where energy has ebbed and there is no growth or little ministry happening. Age doesn’t matter – energy level does. Ideally, all generations would work together.
“I am actually a huge advocate of church revitalization through replanting these churches with younger leadership and vision in a way that the old and young can work together. But, that takes both humility and patience for both”
There are a couple of local SBC church plants that are meeting in schools. It would seem that merging the new plant with another church that has an aging population and wonderful facilities would be a win-win. However, it always seems to come down to fear of what will change and who has the power to make those decisions.
That would be a great thing. We have to move beyond protecting ourselves and engage the world together for the sake of the Kingdom.
First, I think this is a grea idea. However, a huge issue needs to be addressed that is one of the key elements to this discussion.
Without going into detail, older churches with aging congregations tend to have inward-focused ministries and younger churches with younger congregations tend to have more owtward-focused ministries. The former tends to require pastors to be spiritual caretakers and ceremonial leaders while the latter tends to require pastors to be evangelists. A robust ministerial vision for a church has significant elements of both where the pastor is required to be the primary equipper for the rest of the congregation to be the primary ministers. However, older congregations tend to resist movement toward the evangelistic vision so young visionaries strike out on their own and miss the necessary ministry to their elders. So you end with people like Steven Furtick calling older Christians haters.
The thing is, while I think Furtick’s attitude is wrong he is actually addressing a sad truth. Many kids haven’t been well discipled in the moralistic paradigm. As theologically rich as many old hymns are, they aren’t well-apprehended by younger people. Ministries designed to reach out to a fallen world are often poo-pooed in older churches because of declining budgets and stylistic and ideological snobbery. Furtick is expressing the heart of many kids who go off to college never to return to the faith. Ironically, what gets passed down to the next generation is similar stylistic and ideological snobbery. If no younger church meeting a school playing Christian rock music is availble to snag them and disciple them, they quicly and easily fall away.
Address this problem and you can mix aging churches with new church plants.
I’m totally against putting the mature Christians out to pasture.
I want you to know that I’ve still got it. Sometimes, I can’t remember where I put it, or what it is I’ve still got.
We had for years in our Southern Baptist churches not really lived as though we must live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds outbof the mouth of God. Consequently, the lost, including our own children and grandchildren, did not sense we really believed this “stuff.” We appeared to be just another religion and not radically changed as new creatures in Christ. I see a new generation of preachers coming along who preach as though they really believe the Gospel is the power unto salvation. Let’s not get all down and the dumps because some numbers are down, but let’s preach the Word, in season and out of season as those who believe what God said, “so My word that comes from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please and will prosper in what I send it to do. ”
David,
You’re 100% correct when you say “We had for years in our Southern Baptist churches not really lived as though we must live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.”
But you then highlight just preaching. Would you crept the addendum to your fine comments that we need pastors who feed the congregation (preach) and teach them to cook (study deeply and faithfully)?
We have lost a proper understanding of the “local church” within the SBC. We know IMB, NAMB, CP and the local assn. We debate doctrine and who’s who in each SBC entity, but we don’t have clue how the local church works.
Pastors don’t stay and churches look to a DOM to find them another one. The leadership in our churches often changes every 2-3 years. The church then seeks a new man to fill the empty seats. If the new man does this, a larger church steals him away with a promise of more pay or prominence.
Members are added and left on our roles for the life of the church. We lose track of many of our new members within the first year, but we count that baptism. When the phrase “church discipline” is used it usually requires a definition to follow and a shocked look on faces.
Our SS lit. used to teach how local churches operated. But I don’t think you could print that material today because it would be to controversial. In an effort to reach the masses we neglected to continue in the the thing we had learned. Maybe we should seek out some old training union hard back books from Convention Press dating back to the 40’s and make that our SS lit?
We are a convention of churches, NOT churches of a convention. If these unhealthy churches are looking to a convention to help them we will continue to decline. Study the doctrine of the church and by God’s help build strong churches and this Convention will recover. It will thrive if the churches are built God’s way.
Harold:
I love your idea about breaking out the old Convention Press material on church training. Would be like a cold drink of water from a deep canyon well.
Alas, I doubt seriously the SBC could reproduce and reissue that stuff without creating added tension among its current mix of handlers.
Nice to imagine though.
I’m convinced the problem in all SBC Churches is in and around the Altar area. I don’t care if anyone agrees with me or not, I am going to speak on what I think is the truth. When young children are sent to the altar by the parents or teachers and told they are saved, how can we expect anything different than a decline when those children become old enough to make
their own decisions.
There are some churches that record more Baptisms than they actually had. I have found this out by talking to folks in other churches. I suppose
the larger number of Baptisms the more recognition.
Friends, if things are right at the alter, things will be right in the Christian’s life. Only Christ can place a burning desire in ones heart to want to see someone else saved.
Things has to be right at the alter, to put a stop to all the adultry, fornication, and porn that can only to lead to divorce and broken homes.
Things has to be right at the alter to put a stop to all the alchol abuse, drugs, abortion and homosexuality.
Quit, telling folks they are saved, let God do it, if God don’t do it then they are not saved.
Leave the little children alone, they are already God’s. We are to teach them until the time comes when God will deal at their hearts.
Look, a child doesn’t know what sin is, or what conviction is. If you are a parent, do not push your child into a false security brought on by you.
Let God save that child when he is ready.
Preach and teach the word and let God deal with the teens and older adults. There is not enough preaching against sin in todays church.
So this is my two cents. I’m convinced if things change around the altar area, in the near future we will see the church on the rise again.
“”Look, a child doesn’t know what sin is, or what conviction is””
Jess, you could not be more wrong!
Frank, I disagree, I think I couldn’t be more right. I’ve talked to I don’t know how many children, some was already members of a church, and they didn’t know what sin was, or repentence. I’ve seen several adults and teens get saved who were already members of a local church. The problem is in and around the alter area.
Frank, I challenge you to talk to some of the children in your church, casually, without them expecting anything. You will see I’m telling you the truth.
Jess. I have over 100 children in our ministry. I wish se of my adults had as pure and sincere devotion to Christ as the little ones I talk to every day.
I am thankful you were not my children’s pastor when they got saved.
By the way I will bet your knowledge of doctrine is not perfect and by your standard you are not saved. I am sure you disagree and that proves my point.
If you don’t want to address the issue, that’s fine.
Jess, I did address the issue and you insulted me. I even addressed your insult in regard to how I feel about children who are saved.
What you do not address is: what is the benchmark of knowledge required to reach the threshold of salvation? You seem to believe there is some requisite level of knowledge. I would agree there is one also–but, I would add, I can only speculate what that might be because the Bible does not say.
Here’s my deal: Paul said, “Believe ON the Lord Jesus.” (Emphasis mine). What does that mean? I take it to mean, accept that Jesus is the means, pathway, modus, whatever you want to designate it, of salvation. Or, in another way, accept Jesus Christ as the only valid object of saving faith.
How much of that is “intellectual assent?” I’d say, “none.” It is the object that is key in salvation, not the subject accepting that object.
Of course, now we are back to the Cal-No Cal debate and I’ve reached the extent of my intellectual abilities. I’m not a Cal, or a No-Cal, sort of a Low-Cal when it comes to salvation.
Jess, I’m sure you are aware of all the fancy terms people use to describe the ordo salutis. They even have elaborate charts. I’ve believe salvation happens at a spiritual level and the simplest ordo salutis is: God.
Frank, time will tell, it always does.’m glad you feel all warm and fuzzy.
Alen,
I’m glad you addressed this issue with our denomination. The most difficult thing I have experienced in every SBC church since I was in the Youth Department (1970) was true numbers of our membership. I have a problem when we have a so-called member on the books that has not attended for 6 months to a year and we know nothing about them. They could have joined another church by statement and left their letter idle. Nothing is in the system to simply remove or try to locate them. That sounds harsh to many members because they feel they are doing something wrong to throw someone out. Our pity in this area is sinful. Our rolls should be either “active” or “idle”. If we told ourselves the truth we could address our problem with accurate information. This should be our first step but we will avoid it to keep the peace. Our denominal membership should be recorded on software in order to verify duplicate membership. We still live in the 60’s when it comes to technology. I think this is a good starting place. We need to start speaking the truth to ourselves before we speak the Truth to the world.
Bruce, amen.
We need revival, we need reformation, we need more fervor in evangelism, we need more discipleship, we need more people learning theology, we need more prayer, we need more this, more that, more blah, blah, blah…
Well…maybe, and probably.
But those kinds of generic statements aren’t going to resolve anything. Those things will always be the case, even when there is not decline.
We either must wait on God or recognize that God is waiting on us. Like Bob Cleveland suggests, I think it is more the latter, given what we are or perhaps aren’t doing. God is always busy at work, and He may just not be on our radar, not the other way around.
Since no one will say it, I will.
Maybe a lot of pastors out there stink at their job and need to quit since they are ineffective, and their congregation is too lazy to encourage them to get it together or just go on since they don’t care about the non-progress either (which itself is due to the failure of the pastor).
Maybe our seminary professors stink at their job and need to quit. They are more into information-peddling than they are at real mentoring and discipleship of our leaders. It is unthinkable to suggest that all our seminaries are not having any responsibility in this since they are the ones who produce many of the leaders in our churches and institutions.
Maybe our Convention leaders stink in their roles and need to quit.
After all, the pastors, professors, and Convention leaders have presided over year after year of decline. Maybe many were great at their positions once, but don’t know when to move on.
Either God uses pastors, professors, and Convention leaders as means to lead the folks in the pews or He does not and it is just glorified gigs for inflated egos. Since I think those duties are God’s means and not some ego-trip for the occupants, the record suggests that many may need to bow out at every level since many have been presiding over decline and mediocrity and are incapable of doing anything about it (or they would have).
Why in the world would anyone blame the good people in the pews? That they are lazy or don’t know any better to demand more from their leaders or give them the left foot of fellowship is itself a failure of leadership.
No one in leadership takes any responsibility these days. They are content to manage the decline, and then lament on Twitter and blogs about it without ever asking if they themselves may be part of the problem.
However, the leadership, from the pastors, to the seminaries (who instructed many of the pastors), to the Convention leaders don’t need to lament on Twitter and blogs, they need to do everyone a favor and either get it together or move on for the sake of the people, even though many of those people would be sad to see them go.
Being a pastor is a great gig. Being a seminary professor or admin is a great gig. Being a Convention or institution leader is a great gig. Too many occupants of those positions merely think it is a great gig, but the time of complacency is coming to an abrupt end soon.
I am glad the recognition that numbers matter is finally becoming popular again, because the trend in Acts is “and the Lord added to their number”, and not “their numbers declined for the Xth straight year.” Even Paul was certain little could be done in Corinth, but God told him otherwise (Acts 18:1-10). Certainly, the problem is with God’s people. Not God, not an increasingly secular culture, etc.
Maybe it is time for the very people who lament this the most to either change for the better themselves, or get out of the way. It is gut-check time, and the SBC has been too gutless to check its guts recently. When the general, overall trend is down, we can not afford to take any comfort in any given particular that may be an exception, since even though generalities are only generally true, no particular against the general trend can serve as a basis for non-action. There must be examination, and it is on leaders to model this.
Just saying.
“””Being a pastor is a great gig.”””
Quite a judgmental rant. You obviously have never pastored a church.
Also, I did not notice any “personal responsibility” for the state of the Kingdom.
Easiest gig in the world is to be a critic.
Actually, the easiest gig is not to say anything at all and just hold the status quo. Critic is a step up from there.
I’m sure being a pastor is difficult. There are many jobs that are far easier. On the other hand, there are many jobs that are far more difficult. While being a pastor is a special calling, the difficulty of the job is not something to complain about any more than many other jobs. Just think of the jobs of high responsibility that you have held outside of being a pastor.
Jim:
I’ve been a pastor and a nonpastor. Believe me, being pastor is a “great” gig.
…and actually, Jonathan seemed to be an equal opportunity critic. Everyone got duly slammed. The thing is, I think his criticism is well placed.
Johnathan, that was quite an angry rant. Maybe we could just talk?
I am just talking. Talking about leadership. I don’t see how it was “angry” or “judgmental” at all.
I am just pointing out what no one else has.
Did I say “every”? No. I concluded that the general trend it what is at issue, and that no particular exception here and there, of which there certainly is exceptional pastors and churches, seminary professors and Convention leaders, overturns the general trend in which there is comfort and complacency to be found. Each sentence began with “maybe”. So, obviously, it entails “maybe not” in regards to all.
Maybe, rather than seeing this as angry or judgmental, it would be better to take it for what it says at face value. Again, it is gut check time, and we can not be too gutless to not check our guts anymore.
I find it hard to believe that people, after reading lament after lament from all for several years now (entering the weeping prophet David Platt’s Twitter feed as one obvious piece of evidence of lament and criticism) around about how, in general, bad the preaching is in the SBC these days, about how lifeless churches are, about all these things are going downhill, etc., are suddenly shocked the second someone points out it could be a problem in leadership.
Why so? Who does all this preaching? Who trains the pastors? Who leads the Convention? In the SBC, we can hide behind the “bottom up” thing until the cows come home. Maybe a lot of churches and seminaries call bad leaders. Maybe delegates and institutions call bad leaders. That doesn’t all of a sudden mean that bad leaders aren’t responsible for their bad leading.
So, um, I don’t really understand the complaints about my post.
Maybe it really isn’t angry or judgmental, but some are you are just “defensive”.
Easy to be a critic? Indeed it is. Why is it easy to be a critic? Oh, that’s because things exist that need to be criticized.
What is more likely? Every pastor is just awesome at their job and soundly preaches the Gospel and disciples the congregations to Kingdom action, every seminary professor mentors and disciples future pastors, and every Convention leader uses wisdom to lead us into the future…or that perhaps a lot of them may stink at their jobs and contribute more to this decline they have presided over than they are willing to own up for?
Okay then.
You may think on this or return to innocuous, politically correct, theologically non-offensive hum-drumming about how we need revival, we need reformation, we need more fervor in evangelism, we need more discipleship, we need more people learning theology, we need more prayer, we need more this, more that, more blah, blah, blah…all the things that are said year after year without any real diagnosis, solution, and change. 🙂
P.S. Even if it were “angry” and “judgmental”, which it wasn’t, in what worldview is being angry and judgmental about mediocrity and decline always bad thing except in the world of unrepentant sinners and backsliding Christians who have one favorite Bible verse they rip from its context? Certainly not in a Biblical worldview.
Johnathan,
There is one major problem that I see with your argument here as it relates to statistics, ministry, and the nature of discipleship. And that is that it is really hard to gauge the success of the ministry you are doing in the here and now with the statistics that are in the here and now.
What I mean is that there is a time to reap and a time to sow. If it is a season of sowing and you fire all of the sowers because the reaping statistics are down–then that is wrong headed. You don’t really know how well the sowers did until the time of harvest.
That’s what makes gauging ministry success so difficult. It’s not quite as black and white as you present it. Now I’m not a guy that thinks we should just be “happy with small numbers”. ( http://www.mikeleake.net/2012/09/im-happy-with-small-numbers.html ) But at the same time I’m not going to say that pastors, leaders, professors, etc. aren’t doing there job because we aren’t seeing immediate results.
Well, I said they all need to evaluate themselves (even those who are doing well), and that may lead to improvement or getting out of the way. Why is that not obvious?
Is everyone who says they are called to this actually called to this? We all know that isn’t true.
If someone has been camped out for years and nothing has changed, then digging up examples from the OT to make justifications for a whole lot of nothing won’t cut it. IF, and only IF, people are honest with themselves.
Johnthan, being a pastor is a great gig. I’ve had to go to the doctor about six times in the past thirty five years just to have the smile cut from my face,
The only problem I have is the guilt of making the big bucks for doing practically nothing. Johnthan, you wouldn’t even have to worry about taking your children to school of the morning, the deacons will take care of that for you. Your wife will never have to cook, the folks of the church will bring your breakfast, dinner, and supper every day.
The pastor’s job is the only job easier than a Maytag repairman’s job.
Johnthan, if you can control your boredom the ministry would be a great job for you. You will never have to worry about the 3:00 A.M.
phone calls, the deacons will take care of them for you.
Johnthan, I agree with you, some of these pastor’s will complain about anything. The nerve of some people!
Johnthan, are you ready for a great gig?
Lol…
See? I can roll with you being smarmy towards me. I like it. 😉
Well, besides being facetious, I think that you still misunderstand what I meant by “great gig.”
If sanctimony is a must, then fine. It is a noble calling, a great and difficult task to be undertaken.
That still doesn’t mean all who have undertaken it have actually been called to it, or that those genuinely called dont need to evaluate themselves.
We know God is at work, and it still goes back on finding out what we are or aren’t doing.
One pastor has blamed folks for going to a church outside the community where stuff actually happens. I don’t blame them though. Why should they not do so if the church in the community does nothing?
It must be those going to other churches, or those lazy pew-sitters…anyone but the pastor, deacons, etc., right?
Personally, I think we pew-sitters have taken enough grief and blame about how we need revived, etc. from all the Plattesque social media whining from our leaders. Maybe, just maybe, they can point at themselves for a change.
Ask anyone in any pew in any SBC church if they want to see folks come to Jesus, and grow in Him, and I bet you get a SINCERE yes from just about all of them.
I hate the term “pew sitters”. I hear it all the time but disagree with the term. People who are not ministers do not just sit in the pew as the term suggests. These people are deacons, work in the nursery, work in the kitchen during funerals and other occassions which are many in a church, they are the ones going out knocking on doors to invite people to church, and when disaster strikes, they are the first ones to volunteer to roll up their sleeves and clear the rubble for as long as it takes. The term “pew sitters” is not even close to the correct term.
Debbie, I agree. I was using the term facetiously.
Johnathan, I must say, I agree with much of what you say.
I think it is important to hear from the pews. Sometimes
one can find the right answers in the congregation.
Jess. Pray tell what right answers to which you are referring.
Also. Do you consider it possible that the problem is as much in the pews as the pulpit?
Let me give an example: the pulpit in our church gives an average of 20% in offerings, or about 5% of the total. 85% of the pews give about 5-10% on average. So the pulpit plus 15% of the pews give 90 to 95% of the budget.
The leadership and the pulpit teach and model giving. But many in the pews simply live in rebellion.
I good give a similar example for other aspects of discipleship. My point being the results of ministry is not solely or primarily the responsibility of the pulpit (Eph 4).
Frank L.
I am not suggesting that there is no problem at all in the pews. I believe there is problems in the pews.
Why is their problems in the pews?
Oh yeah, it goes back to leadership. If the pews ain’t following and are in rebellion, then the pastor has failed anyway.
Sorry mate, there is just no getting around the leadership issue here.
“One pastor has blamed folks for going to a church outside the community where stuff actually happens.”
Directed toward my comments? If you’re talking about me, Johnathan, you aren’t even close. No blame applied on my part. My statement was that they’d rather drive 10 miles to have it done for them than stay in our local community and do it themselves. Statement of fact. Also, the fact is that every church in our area is in decline. All of them struggling. The big FBC in town can’t get enough workers for VBS. Why? It isn’t just the small churches where “stuff” doesn’t happen. You need to cool your jets and back off a little. The only one pointing a finger around here has been you.
Frank, all I’m saying is that we have to look at ourselves, judge ourselves and just maybe we can find the problem.
Not one time did you even indicate that you “might” be the problem.
Jess,
You simply pick and choose what you want from peoples’ posts. I said more than once that I am not perfect and I get discouraged because I feel I am not achieving my goals for growth in the church.
So, you make up stuff I did not say and then call me out on it.
Yet, not one time did Johnathan even hint at the problem being in the pew. I gave you a solid example that discredits the proposition that churches (the SBC) is stagnant because of pastoral leadership.
That simply is not a provable proposition.
My staff meets together weekly and we all give an accounting what we accomplished in the past week. Then we pray. Two themes are part of every prayer: confession and thanksgiving. We confess our faults-which are not hard to assess–and we thank God for not giving up on us.
So, disagree with me. Even deride me, as you often do. But, argue with what I say, not what you make up.
I don’t really like the way that Jonathan said it, but I think he is right in most of what he said.
We do have an “effective pastor” and “effective seminary” problem. I think our seminaries are producing scholars who are mostly terrible at leading (heck, even relating to) people. If you can’t lead people you can’t be a good pastor.
I agree with this post completely, Matt Svoboda. I think Johnathan has some very valid points….
I’d only caution Johnathan that tactfully speaking the truth in love goes a lot further and attracts people to said truth than does untactful diatribes.
The sheep can’t be blamed but so much for the “ills” of the church….the shepherds have to take some (most?) of the blame – of course the Shepherd trainers are to blame too.
After all didn’t God say something like; “be slow to teach as you will fall under greater judgment.”
Tar Heel. What valid points did Johnathan make? That pastors aren’t perfect? Isn’t that stating the obvious?
Is it valid to suggest that every pastor who does not measure up to some standard, which Johnathan does not state, should quit?
I am sorry but I missed the valid points in his posts. It mat be that I could not hear because of his shouting.
I think, on the other hand, Matt hits on an area that can be improved greatly. I made a specific proposal. I am putting my time and money into this proposal. There may be other proposals along this line
Matt hit the target. Johnathan simply tried to blow up the shooting range. Big difference for me
“Sheep” another term I hate for the same reasons listed above.
Debbie,
I understand what you mean relating to pew sitters as its usually derisive. I do not mean sheep derisively….in fct pastors are scripturally called under shepherds and believers are called sheep…we’re told to “shepherd the flock of God”. For these reasons, I think it’s an appropiate analogy.
I think one point that’s valid is that it seemed johnathan was trying to articulate what Matt said in his second paragraph above. Jonathan’s approach and verbiage is certainly not as appropiate as others…but it seemed that was among his points.
Tarheel
I said I agree wholeheartedly with Matt’s second paragraph and outlined what I would do, and am doing about it.
I think that is perhaps the “key” element in turning around our denomination. Some of our seminaries–I attended two–are trying and have been trying to remedy that situation for perhaps at least 25 years that I am aware of.
It is hard to address the taint of institutionalized training in a vocation that has foundations in journeyman training.
Yes, I agree that is a huge part of the problem.
Matt. I can accept that analysis in regard to seminary preparation. But that is a big jump to Johnathan’s conclusion.
Take your post–and I don’t mean to stretch it to absurd limits– then Moses was a terrible leader.
Except the Word tells us the wilderness outcome was the result of rebellion, not lack of leadership.
Johnathan’s conclusions are simply wrong at worst or incomplete at best. As Joe pointed out, statistics cannot supply conclusions.
As a veteran let me expand Joe’s analysis of statistics. Generals use numbers to formulate battle strategies. However, they also rely on recon from soldiers on the ground.
Johnathan wants to be a general but has no battlefield experience. That is foolish.
I’m all for changing the leadership development model. I would support closing all our seminaries and supporting an online seminary centered in local churches. Pastor would serve as they learn.
What is the likelihood such a motion would pass at the Convention?
For the record, I am pursuing this very strategy. I will not support a young man “going off to seminary.” I went to two and I could have spent my time in better ways
Seems like you can disagree all day, but make all the silly claims about my points, dig up OT situations (I think I made THIS point already as well), and on and on and on.
At the end of the day, what I said, regardless of how I said it, rings true because it is true.
What kind of experience would you like me to have in order to be in a position to offer critiques?
I am not trying to be a general. I am simply posing a notion that perhaps people in leadership need to evaluate themselves, and either improve or move on if they are not accomplishing anything.
Again, when the general trend is a certain way, that you Frank may be doing okay doesn’t mean every pastor, every professor, every church, every institution leader, etc. is doing okay.
That is just absurd to think that way.
Look, we get it. There are variables, and there are going to be a variety of them in every particular circumstance. What in the world has that got to do with anything I raised?
Nothing.
You make accusations and ungodly, unsubstantiated accusations based upon no facts and offering no substance.
When posed with direct questions of substance you return with dismissiveness and ad homonyn fallacies.
I get it. You have nothing to offer but criticism of facts I don’t know anyone disagrees with.
I’ll sum up thusly: your facts are wrong, your spirit is wrong, your conclusions are wrong and it would be wrong to continue a discussion with you.
You have the last word if you want it
Johnathan, you put forth some valid points in the accountability of leaders in relation to church growth. It’s my opinion (and it’s just an opinion), that what some of the others posting here in regards to that, is a lack of some congregations not wanting a pastor anymore in a sense, but are just wanting a preacher. Maybe putting it a better way, someone to do the work that a pastor does minus having to submit to his leadership in the direction of the church. Where does this come from? From years of pastors staying at a church 1-3 years and then moving on to another, before there’s any real leadership established. Congregations don’t want to deeply invest in relationships that might not exist six months to a year down the road. Self-examination of a pastor’s effective leadership in a church? I agree. But we are still dealing with many congregations (mostly with bi-vocational pastors) that haven’t had real, stable leadership in so long, that they no longer even know how to submit to real leadership. Just my thoughts on it.
David,
You made a good statement when you said “we are still dealing with many congregations (mostly with bi-vocational pastors) that haven’t had real, stable leadership in so long, that they no longer even know how to submit to real leadership.”
I’m glad you were able to highlight that this is most certainly a problem for some bi-vocational pastors. This is also the case when churches are hurt by pastors (another route to not “deeply invest in relationships”).
I know how a pastor can act as a shepherd when his congregation doesn’t want leadership. But how is he to act as a leader? When do the needs of Christ’s bride overtake the importance of maintaining the local church (especially when they are stubborn)? We know the two, Christ’s bride and the local church, aren’t the same thing, but how can we wrestle with this question?
Sad fact of the matter is a huge segment of Baptist churches have been conditioned over recent decades to expect short tenure from pastors as a normal cycle. They act and conduct themselves accordingly.
Seminary training, denominational filtering, and the manipulation of pastoral ethics by charlatans have to take some of the responsibility for these reciprocal attitudes of mistrust between pastors and church members.
I don’t think the “godlessness” of the folks in the pews is our only problem.
Pastors come and go and the faces of congregations change. The spirit of the church remains where Christ is central. If not, the buildings are eventually sold or demolished.
David Gallimore,
Sir, if I might ask, who are the we in your statement when you said we are still dealing with congregations (bi-vocational pastors), that haven’t had real, stable leadership, and no longer know how to submit to it.
David, it sounds as though you have no idea what you are talking about. I submit to you that you don’t. I have been a bi-vocational pastor for 35 years, down on the front lines where the battles take place. Have you ever preached at a church where the deacons shot the windows out of it. If you haven’t, you have no right to even speak of leadership. My life has been threatened right here in the United States.
You have no concept of leadership. Who do you think tamed the congregations for the likes of people like you. I would love to see how long people like you would last in a bi-vo church.
The first church I ever pastored, was a 0 dollar salary for four years.
The second church I pastored was a 25 dollars per week salary for four
years, and you have the gall to speak of leadership.
No leadership, huh!
Jess, if somehow what I stated offended you then I am truly sorry. The “we” I used was intended for the SBC as a whole. It was not my intention to single anyone out, especially bi-vocational pastors who have endured unspeakable trials and hardships while faithfully pastoring. My point was simply this, that there are many congregations who suffer from not having stability in leadership from the lack of some (and I mean some) pastors, not willing to stick with a church long enough to form a relationship with a congregation that will lead to them trusting his leadership.
Once again brother, I was not intending to insult or make little of any pastor. It was merely an observation.
Jess, may I ask you without further offending you, that if you agree or disagree that it is a valid concern that I have stated? Aside from what you believe are qualifications for leadership?
David,
In some congregations leadership is extremely hard to achieve.
In some situations a pastor may never achieve it no matter how long he is there. I will grant you this, that sometimes it’s the pastors fault, sometimes it’s the congregations fault.
It would be wrong to place the blame on a preacher just because he is bi-vocational.
Oops put that last post under the wrong thread. 🙂
Dear Jeff: The folks who shot out the windows in the church I pastored were not the deacons; they were residents of a next door housing project where I made visits. Bivocationalism is no easy task. God surely has a special reward for His servants who serve in that capacity.
Thank you Jess, I am in total agreement with what you said. Perhaps I should have made my wording clearer in that I was not blaming the issue on bi-vocational pastors, but that it is something that you notice more in churches that have bi-vocational pastors (maybe because of the size??)
It is definitely very easy to get discouraged as a bi-vo in a small or plateaued church. I would never by my intention to group someone as a whole, especially bi-vo pastors, I am one and my father was one for over 40 years before me.
I am sorry we got off on the wrong foot, and I assure you I meant you no insult as a bi-vo pastor. Blessings brother.
dr. james Willingham,
Brother, how have you been doing? I haven’t heard from you in a while. You are missed very much.
Just saying.
And THIS is why I kick myself whenever I reply to anyting on SBC Voices. Or to be more accurate, why I usually end up regretting that I’ve subscribed to the comment stream in my Inbox.
It seems that invariably, the discussion always breaks down into personal attacks. It could be just the comments I’ve followed while all the rest remain charitable and considerate of one another, but I have my doubts. Is there any way to turn off a subscription so I don’t have to listen to the personal sniping?
There is a way to not subscribe to comments when you post one. You would have received an email asking that you confirm your desire to subscribe to the comments. Just keep that email. There’s a link where you can veiw your confirmations and turn them off if you no longer want to be subscribed. I’ve done it more than once.
I never subscribe to comments. I just come back here and check out what’s happening at my discretion.
You can reply without subscribing to comments.
I would call your use of “free fall” a provocative phrase but not accurate. Stetzer is right about the long, slow slog of the SBC’s baptisms. I predict a healthy increase next year but no change to the downward trend.
It is a mistake to agonize too much about aggregate baptisms, membership, and attendance. There is very little that the Executive Committee or any national or even state SBC leader or entity can do.
A few observations:
1. We will not be able to complain about toddler baptisms any longer since the Annual Church Profile no longer has a category younger than “under 10”.
2. Rebaptisms are a big Boomer thing. My conjecture is that the prevalence of rebaptisms has declined.
3. There has been considerable talk and effort to have honesty in reporting the past decade or more, so membership lists of numerous churches have been cleaned up and hundreds of thousands of members dropped.
4. Let’s not forget that the only data that addresses the matter of Calvinistic pastors and baptisms shows that our Calvinist brethren baptize more on average than non-Calvinists. We can blame Calvinists for lots of stuff but not declining baptisms.
Alan, if you want a good place to use “free fall” try Sunday School attendance. It is declining so fast that churches are taking drastic action to address it – they stop reporting the numbers. This would be the Scarlett O’Hara approach, “I’m just not going to think about that.”
William, a 5.5% decrease in a year to the lowest level since 1948 is a pretty big deal. If you don’t like “free fall,” I am open to other terms. But, it is significant. My guess is that it is only going to pick up. Are a third or more of our churches primarily filled with senior adults and consist of under 100 people that do not report any baptisms? This trend will continue, I think, until either the majority of those churches reboot or we hit some kind of floor in the decline.
I’m OK with “big deal” but merely further evidence of the long term trend of declining SBC baptisms. Baptisms increas about every third year for the last generation but have been steadily, slowly declining for decades. The graph found in the link below gives the proper picture:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2012/june/sbc-2011-statistical-realities–facts-are-our-friends-but.html
Although not “free fall” the percentage decline is the largest I can find with a quick search, although 5.5% is not exactly dropping off a table.
David, I didn’t look into the reason the categories were changed. Some state conventions may still collect data for <5 years.
That would be interesting to know. If anyone has any info about that, I sure would like to hear it.
William,
That is interesting about the ACP and the “Under 10” category. I was not aware of that. Have you heard anything about what might have been the motivation behind changing this?
And then there are those of us who are called to serve in churches where decline and difficulty are obvious. Our churches might best be named “The Church of Statistical Decline.” Many of us are bi-vocational. All of us would love to see our struggling churches turn around. Most of us are tired of pat answers as to how that can happen. There really are no “10 Easy Steps to Church Growth” or “7 Signs of a Happening Church” or “5 Things Every Leader Should Know” that will help us (With apologies to Thom Rainer).
Sorry, but it’s NOT an easy gig. I’m not complaining in what I’m about to say. I love my church and the people of this little community. But facts are facts.
We small-time pastors work hard, visit folks in our little communities, preach the Word regularly, show up at the hospital as often as possible, counsel couples that we know aren’t listening, plead with the lost to come to the Savior, take vacation time from our secular jobs to do funerals, etc., and see little results for our efforts.
The people where I live are very willing to drive the 10 miles into the nearest town to go to church, but they aren’t willing to work together here in our own community church to advance the Kingdom. They’ll go where it’s already happening, but they won’t work to make it happen here. They don’t get involved in the church they attend, why should they get involved out here in the boonies? They don’t want to go where they have to do anything. Maybe they moved out here from in town to get away from town, but they have a church they’ve been attending and don’t want to change that. I understand their desire for that consistency.
We had a period of growth some years ago, but that waned and people began moving away. With those moves went the regular church hoppers who decided it was time to hop. At the same time Sunday School attendance became a non-issue somehow. Baptisms declined dramatically. Unless God turns it around I’m presiding over a slow but certain demise.
People constantly ask me why I stay here. I’m too well educated for this church, they say. I’m too good a preacher, they say. I’m too faithful a pastor, they say. But what does God say? I will stay until God changes His plan for me. It will never gain me a great reputation. It will never garner me enough brownie points to be considered by a large church. When people ask why I stay here, my response usually involves an answer that reminds them that past “performance” usually has an impact on future direction when it comes to a career. This is no less true in ministry than any other job. I haven’t led a dying church out of it’s slump yet, so why would another larger dying church want me to be their pastor?
It will look like my ministry has been a wasted failure. But I will stay. It may be that God will soon turn it around, and I wouldn’t want to miss out on the revival of hearts and minds that He has in store for this little rural community. I pray for and await that day.
Dale,
Someone else may have mentioned it, but the comments are pretty good about seeking blame rather than giving God glory so the message is buried. But thank you for bringing up the role God plays in shaping his Church and our responsibility for sticking with it in the face of adversity. I think that’s where most of our hearts are, but the admonition and encouragement needs to be vocalized more.
“……the comments are pretty good about seeking blame rather than giving God glory…..”
Maybe that’s just indicative of the human condition. Started with Adam and Eve, I think. Thanks for the comment, Jim.
One huge issue is the fact that most of our youth stop attending church within one year of graduating high school. The numbers vary but are never less than 50%. The SBC Family Live council reported the number at 88% back in 2002. Ken Ham addresses this in his book “Already Gone”. He accurately identifies many issues and proposes some solutions but does not go far enough. Ed Stetzer has commented about the fact that the faith that the faith of parents is not being effectively passed down to children.
If you don’t believe the numbers, try tracking the youth that have passed through your church’s youth ministry the past couple of decades.
In the context of my local church, one choice made by the vast majority of our parents has been to teach their children at home. In this group, Dad’s tend to be theologically savvy, there is a much higher than average instance of home worship and parents are highly motivated to provide a Biblically grounded life experience for their children (think Deut 6).
One might be able to argue cause-and-effect, but the results are rather encouraging. From a study entitled :
“94% of homeschoolers keep the faith and 93% continue to attend church after the high school years. But a shocking 75% to 85% of Christian children sent to public school drop out of church, and do not hold a Christian worldview after high school graduation.” – Dr. Brian Ray in the study “Home Educated and Now Adults” available from NHERI.
This is a conversation worth having between pastors and parents and would seem to play into the fact that the SBC has an aging population and decreasing numbers.
please pardon my lack of proof-reading…
Is any of this research published outside of the $3 download on the NHERI site? I’d be very curious to see the research methods and the sample pool used to determine these numbers.
My personal experience with homeschoolers is pretty well documented on this site and others and would contrast greatly with the numbers you have cited, but I would be more than willing to read the research put together by this organization to see what credence it might deserve.
Ryan,
I am not an expert. I am an advocate that sought out supporting research. Ken Ham speaks a bit on the issue of “why” young folks are leaving the church in his book “Already Gone” and it seems that his research into the problem is done very well, though I would disagree a bit with his proposed solutions. I am sure many would disagree with mine.
I would think that the problem is well documented (i.e. youth leaving the church in large numbers). The conversation needs to be about how to address this issue and to have some way to determine success. We are doing what we think is the most Biblical approach and it does seem to be bearing good fruit.
“. . . doing what we think is the most Biblical approach and it does seem to be bearing good fruit ”
it is written in the Bible, this:
“22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.”
Also consider…
Barna Research found “…the reason why Christians are so similar in their attitudes, values and lifestyles to non-Christians is that they were not sufficiently challenged to think and behave differently – radically differently, based on core spiritual perspectives – when they were children. Simply getting people to go to church regularly is not the key to becoming a mature Christian. Spiritual transformation requires a more extensive investment in one’s ability to interpret all life situations in spiritual terms.” (link @ bottom)
In an intentionally Christian homeschool environment this sort of “extensive investment” is much easier for parents to give to their children. When your parents are your primary source of knowledge, you are much more likely to share their beliefs. (Luke 6:40).
“The education of children for God is the most important business done on earth. It is the one business for which the earth exists. To it all politics, all war, all literature, all money-making, ought to be subordinated; and every parent especially ought to feel, every hour of the day, that, next to making his own calling and election sure, this is the end for which he is kept alive by God–this is his task on earth.” – Rev. R. L. Dabney (1820-1898)
http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/130-research-shows-that-spiritual-maturity-process-should-start-at-a-young-age
Donald,
This I good stuff. Thank you.
Our church is slowly learning to have an almost overwhelming burden for our children. Thank goodness for the power of the Holy Spirit.
“””Simply getting people to go to church regularly is not the key to becoming a mature Christian.””
Donald, I think those of us in the ministry over 30 or 40 years are painfully coming to the conclusion that “filling the pews with people is not the same as filling the people with God’s Spirit.”
We have “innovated ourselves into oblivion almost.” I’m a fan of using any tool or strategy to help fulfill the Great Commission. I appreciate all that marketing can do to sharpen a church’s outreach effectiveness, but I think we have started seeing the tool as the end instead of the means.
Our church has been committed to educating children with a Christian school for four decades. No child that is deserving and wants a distinctively Christian education has ever been turned away because of money.
Last year I sent a letter to every evangelical church in the area giving the pastor the opportunity to send a family of kids to our school. Not one pastor responded with a recommendation.
We did not lose the adult population: we failed to capture them when they were kids.
Now, we have movement of sorts in SB life to not “baptize children” at least until they can pass a first year seminary exam. Makes me wonder.
PS–We started focusing on our children and youth ministries four years ago with increasing fervor.
The result: we have baptized as many adults as children because we are reaching the parents of the children.
We still have a long way to go, however, but the trend is nice.
“Last year I sent a letter to every evangelical church in the area giving the pastor the opportunity to send a family of kids to our school. Not one pastor responded with a recommendation.”
Wow…
We seldom realize that we are men of varied talents. The measure of faith each pastor has will only have a measure of results. Have you ever thought that abortions may have taken its toll on the ministry? There has been many a great pastor with great talent that never did enter this life.
I’m sure the SBC has made some mistakes or buried their talent in the ground. We must repent and pray the Lord of the harvest to send laborers into His harvest.
Just out of curiosity, when did my statement of certain positions being a “great gig” turn into a steady refrain in subsequent posts in response about being an “easy gig”? Were those my words? No. Did my words even imply that? No. It is a conflation of what I said and what Frank L. responded about being a critic being an “easy gig”. Of course, it isn’t actually easy being critic, since the critic makes few friends and must defend his criticism despite how obvious and obviously true it is (unless leaders care not a bit about THEIR “personal responsibility).
In any case, if one is going to revisit a theme from my post and heehaw about it, please, read it accurately and get it right.
If people don’t think those positions are great gigs, they should quit them. God doesn’t need anyone to do those jobs at any particular time and location. God lets people do it, and everyone in them is expendable and God can replace them with others He’ll let do them.
That “great gig” became “easy gig” in the minds of some responders is quite telling though. 😉
Okay, thanks everyone. 🙂
I’ll take responsibility for picking up on “easy” and ignoring “great.” My apologies to you for misusing your words.
That being said, your original comment certainly struck a chord because of your statement that “….the record suggests that many may need to bow out at every level since many have been presiding over decline and mediocrity and are incapable of doing anything about it (or they would have)…..” The fact is, Johnathan, that I regularly and systematically examine myself and my ministry. The results aren’t all that astounding. You then suggest that “….maybe it is time for the very people who lament this the most to either change for the better themselves, or get out of the way…..” I disagree. The time comes to press in and move forward all the while recognizing that it isn’t dependent on anything you do. “God gives the increase”, I believe.
The fact that you want to make this about the change of wording instead of a deeper examination is also quite telling. 😮
Well, we all believe God gives the increase. That’s the point. We can quote “in season and out of season” and other passages all day long, but that does absolutely nothing to overturn the idea that many leaders need to evaluate themselves and either improve or bow out.
God indeed gives the increase. It’s what comes before that statement in Scripture that may be the issue because Paul didn’t say his planting and Apollos’ watering was absolutely meaningless by what he says in verse 7.
In no other profession is the production of nothing tolerating, and I do bot think ministry is an exception, regardless of the typical proof-texts dug up to spiritualize laziness and a lack if accomplishment.
Not saying YOU, because I don’t know YOU, but generally speaking, there are dead churches with pastors who stink at their job behind their pulpits everywhere in the SBC.
And, statements like that get stated all the time, with much approval and fanfare, by everyone’s favorite popular pastors and theologians, especially in the Reformed camp, and any poo-pooing a nobody like me for saying it too doesn’t make it all of a sudden not the case…
I don’t agree with the big time preachers either. Many of them seem to be a little out of touch with reality as well.
Well…you may be right about that. But they do tend to shape perception in this arena the way that news organizations shape perception in that arena.
First let me apologize for referring to Scripture in this comment, something you have already disdainfully cast aside as proof texting, but…
It surprises me when we act surprised when Scripture comes to past. The Bible tells us certain things that we will see throughout history, things which should be all the more apparent the closer we draw to the coming of Christ.
In an age of apostasy within and hardness without, it should not surprise us that faithful churches are shrinking. When the love of many grows cold and the lost can find a host of voices to tickle their itching ears, the source of the problem is not the pastor or church member who seeks to walk faithfully with God.
Our problem is we are so enamored with numbers and immediate, tangible results that we cannot fathom how God could be at work unless we see definite results. The danger of this is it leads to the very apostasy consuming our culture: if we demand results, and if the old paths do not get results, then we begin to be lured by the methods which seem to be reaching people, regardless of what those methods might be and regardless of where they might ultimately lead.
A failure for a church to grow does not equate a failure for a church to be faithful. What I tell the people of my struggling church is that we should constantly seek to evaluate what we are doing – walking wisely to make the best use of the time – but if we believe we are faithful in our work, and if we are not being entangled by sin, then we continue forward with what we are doing. What we cannot do is pursue the worldly mindset that says we must change our method until we find something that works.
The goal is not, ultimately, to change the world. The goal is to glory God. If as a result the world is changed, then God be praised! If it is not changed, God is still glorified and we have not betrayed his name.
Amen! Well said, Chris.
Chris,
I would only add or commend that we always remember the American church is not the only church. Statements like “In an age of apostasy within and hardness without, it should not surprise us that faithful churches are shrinking” can be made of many nations. But there are some countries and continents seeing growth and progress.
I’m not sensing that you’ve made this mistake. I’m simply adding to your thought. 🙂
Joshua,
There are nations seeing an explosive growth of Pentecostalism, but I’m not sure if they are seeing growth in biblical Christianity. It becomes hard to determine which is on the rise.
To clarify myself: not general Pentecostalism but particularly the name-it-and-claim-it prosperity gospel variant.
I didn’t dismiss proof-texting in general. I dismissed the use of them for a particular reason. Namely, justifying failure.
I am sorry, but a pastor who has camped out at a church for four to seven years and has had little to nothing happen in it is perhaps not the right man for the church, or is the right man but for another church, or something.
However, numbers matter and faithfulness matters. Certainly they are not mutually exclusive. I do not think the two are separable in the way you suggest though.
I am not utopian. Obviously, because in my initial post I rejected utopian ploys. I.e. “If everyone would just A, B, or C, then X, Y, and Z.”
I go to a dispensationalist seminary, Biola, and nowhere do we find thinking that we should just assume the worst as time passes on and thus not continue to be concerned daily for the growth and expansion of Christendom. The message to the Thessalonians rejects this out of hand. I don’t care what anyone’s eschatology is, the mission and the purpose and goals of it remains the same right up until the end.
Jonathan,
A pastor friend has been keeping track of the stats for churches on the east part of our town. From what he’s seen, every single one of these churches has been stagnant or in various rates of decline for the last 10 years – including his, including mine. I know the pastors of each of these churches and many of them are good, godly, faithful men serving fervently and well. I’m afraid you will not convince me that each of these men belong in a different church, if they belong in ministry at all. The problem is not the pastors. The problem may not even be the members (though let’s not overlook that small factor in a church’s health).
As for “proof texting”, that phrase is a favorite of our day. Any time one person doesn’t like how another person uses Scripture, they are accused of proof texting and their words are written off.
Johnathan, you will have to excuse Dale and Frank, they sometimes forget to take their medication. They don’t say good things to anyone.
I think it’s just a bad attitude.
I’ll take that as a compliment, coming from you, Jess.
Jess. For the most part I take your posts with a grain of salt. Often it is like salt in a wound.
Johnathan’s post is neither accurate in content nor seasoned with grace. It is demeaning to the many many pastors and leaders I know and have known for years.
As I said being a critic is an easy gig. Anyone can curse the darkness. It takes much more to light a candle.
Where are the facts to support such a sweeping generalization? What positive outcome from such an outburst? How does it make a godly pastor feel who already feels like a failure because of the lack of growth in the church?
If Johnathan wants to show how its done I know many men willing to listen. Where’s his church? How does he balance his prayer life, family life, and ministry? How does he deal with someone threatening suicide on Saturday evening? How does he help a young working family pay for child care at about $1500 per month on blue collar salaries?
How would he deal with a threat from the District Attorney of spending a year in jail for serving ice cream at a revival meeting? I could go on but these and more are part of what a typical pastor has to deal with while trying to win a world that is becoming increasingly hostile to Christianity in an economy that erodes resources
OK. Point your fingers BUT also lift a hand.
I for one am all ears waiting for some answers.
Sorry Jess if you think this is a bad attitude
“”Gig””” from Merriam-Webster: an entertainer’s engagement.
Used of the calling of God upon a person’s life is derogatory and in bad taste and likely to cause an adverse reaction.
Seriously, please dispense with the sanctimony. Thanks.
Frank:
In linguistic fairness, I don’t think everybody uses Merriam Webster when they assign their own meaning to certain words. And everybody assigns personal meaning to words they speak or write.
“Gig” is also personally understood by many (both clerical and nonclerical) as simply nothing more than a generic reference to one’s job or vocation.
I reject the idea that another’s use of the word should be understood as being either “degorgatory” or “in bad taste” considering the context.
Seriously brother, people in other professions have to also deal with personal issues in the lives of others and themselves, as well as have to balance many things in their own lives. Of course, someone like an accountant also has to worry about getting fired for not getting it done. Pastors often do not, and will slum it while trudging up whatever models and proof-texts they can to justify the lack of much happening in their tenure.
But, since you want to outright dismiss my observations and make it more personal, then okay. Fine. Tell your friends to quit their jobs and let those churches find someone else to take over and see if they can do better.
But…what if they did because it was God’s good pleasure to bless their ministry?
Johnathan,
How about just answer the questions?
Your kind are a dime a dozen who hover around ministry criticizing and comparing preachers to “musical entertainers” — not that I particularly have anything against musical entertainers.
I’ve met many, many people like you who could not last one day in ministry talking as if being a Baptist pastor is comparable to being an “accountant” — again, not that I have anything against accountants.
Those that can do–those that can’t criticize.
Your tone is not only repugnant, it is ignorant. Case in point, “Pastors often do not have to worry about getting fired.” That is simply ignorant, and I hope that if you are an account, you do better research than you display on this blog.
You did not answer my questions, because you can’t without defeating your gratuitous assertion (a logical fallacy).
By the way, I already agreed with some of your assertions, which are nothing new. It is your conclusions that are false, demeaning, devoid of grace, and ignorant. It is your suggested solutions that I disagree with.
If you want to add any weight to your gratuitous assertions, then add some facts. Add some specifics that show that your assertions and assumptions prove your conclusions.
You won’t. You can’t. Yes, you made it personal and I responded, but not against you as a person only, though I do find your tone repugnant, but I challenged your assertions. I asked some straightforward answers.
You compared pastors to being “accountants.” Name one accountant you know of that the above questions “all” apply. I can name several, in fact many, pastors for whom the above questions apply.
Your attacks really aren’t personal, because you don’t know me from Adam. It’s the hasty generalizations and gratuitous assertions that show your conclusions to be logical misdirected.
I apologize that I did seem to get personal, but really I’m not even sure if there is such an entity as Johnathan P. So, I’d be happy to stick with discussing your answers to my questions.
You don’t know anything about my church so you don’t know if I fit those “pastors and leaders” for whom you have so much contempt. I don’t know you so I don’t know if you are a lay person that is winning the lost and discipling the saved, sacrificing your time and money to help your church grow–but I do have my doubts.
I’m willing to hear your positive suggestions. I’m not going to give up and quit because I’m not perfect. I guess you really don’t understand what pastors know as “a call.” Otherwise, you would know why we do not quit easily.
Positive suggestions. Practical help. I’m all for that. Let ‘er rip.
I’ve met many, many people like you who could not last one day in ministry talking as if being a Baptist pastor is comparable to being an “accountant” — again, not that I have anything against accountants.
I served as a bi-vo pastor and an accountant, for what it’s worth. 🙂
Joe:
#twobirdsonestone
(grin)
Joe,
I remember you being an accountant and had you in mind when I made that statement.
It is also why I referenced you remark in regard to statistics.
I also knew you had served as a bi-vocational pastor, which in part, is why I so highly value your insight. Out of a total of 37 years of ministry I have served all but 13 as a bivo. I admit, I never was an accountant. But, I do have four accountants on my Finance Team and my Executive Assistant is an accountant.
One accountant is a CFO of one of the largest corporations in the United States. He has said many times that he did not want my job–apparently, it’s not that great a “gig.” I make pennies compared to him and I am so thankful he is successful because he is also one of the most generous, big-hearted men I’ve ever met.
That’s my accounting of the matter.
First, I didn’t compare pastors to accountants. And, I am not an accountant.
I suggested that people in other professions, like accountants, deal with similar things in their own lives in regards to the personal issue they have with their friends and family, as well as their own, and have to balance things like prayer, etc. in their lives as well.
I do realize that some pastors do worry for their jobs. But, generally speaking, pastors with little to show for their ministry by and large leave churches for other ones more than they get fired. How often do pastors get fired? Not that often in my experience.
I don’t know where I compared ministers to music entertainers either, but your ability to read and comprehend is not impressive so far, so nonsense statements that abound in your responses are not surprising.
I didn’t know I had a kind, but I would certainly hope I am not the only person that thinks perhaps leadership should evaluate themselves. Whatever you make of our kind is irrelevant to whether or not our kind is right.
As for facts…
The SBC is in decline. And constant pointing to the pews and saying “rebels”, ” they need revival” and us not considering those in leadership as perhaps being responsible to some or perhaps a large degree is just a denial of reality, and actually kind of stupid. Of course, if pastors never think it could be them in some of this…then yeah, its probably them. 😉
I made a positive suggestion. Evaluate, and decide to improve or get out of the way. Since you aren’t leaving, and your church isn’t doing anything, then I hope you would improve. 😉
There are two things that I have seen in at least a dozen different churches so I feel alright expanding it to include most churches in the Southern Baptist convention.
One, why do we count baptisms? My wife joined my church when we got married. My pastor didn’t require her to get rebaptized so she counted as a member but not as a baptism. I have seen several churches that are growing and expanding but they aren’t baptizing because most of their new membership is those who have left another denomination or had previously left another SBC church. So these churches are showing growth with few baptisms. By my understanding of our metrics, these churches aren’t very successful.
Two, are we losing members or just people that churches put on a roll sheet because they visited once or joined only to never be seen again? My home church growing up was notorious for adding members and never removing them. I spent a summer interning for the youth pastor and pulled the rolls for all students from sixth grade to college at my pastor’s request. I’ll never forget when I met with both the youth pastor and senior pastor with a list of about a hundred names of people who were no longer students, had moved away, and in seven cases, were dead. That meeting always stuck with me because the church loved to tout their youth numbers only to find that the list was largely fraudulent due to either purposeful neglect or gross incompetence. The pastor then ordered a complete review of the 4000+ names and families on the rolls. Two months later, the list was pared down to around 2200+ names with very broad tenets as to what constituted a member of that church.
So I would ask, did we ever truly have 16 million members in the first place?
Bill: I don’t think your math is lying to you. LOL.
Not even close to 16 million.
Alan, the SBC was growing (annual membership) up to about 2000, plateaued until about 2006, and slightly declining since. We have been in a real statistical decline since Nancy Pelosi was elected Speaker of the House of Representatives in 2007.
I admit to doing my part in this in 2011 when we did a membership review and dropped about one fourth of our total membership.
Early June is our scheduled time for annual handwringing. Let the declaiming, despair, and despondency proceed…
“Statistics mean never having to say you’re certain.”
-Marge N. O’vera, Statistician
Seriously, just because someone cites a decline in statistics does not prove that they know what those statistics mean. William has cited several reasonable explanations that could provide insight as to why these statistics are what they are. In short, it may not yet be time for the “Whoopee-the-SBC-is-in-decline. That-proves-that-our-right-wing political-stance-on-issues-has-offended-people-and-perverted-the-gospel” crowd to begin patting each other on the back. I wouldn’t start celebrating just yet.
I remember a pastor speaking at the Pastors conference several years ago. He cam to the mic right after a video and pep talks by denominational leaders seeking to encourage churches to “baptize X number of people over the next few years” (I do not remember the specifics.)
What I do remember is that pastor calmly and lovingly saying that the goal was ambitious and delightful…but he’d like to see some encouragement to actually ensure that the people baptized in pursuit of that goal were actually saved.
He then preached a message concerning the power of God to Salvation being in preaching Christ. That those who come to Christ in faith do so because the Word is proclaimed and Jesus is taught.
As i wiped tears from my eyes I wanted to scream “THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU”.
I, as a pastor, would rather lead 3 people to Christ and disciple them (Matthew 28:19,20) than baptize 100 unregenerate people to pad a number. I am called to preach, to teach, to equip – I am not called to cajole, manipulate, or create “decisions” for any reason…much less for denominational kudos!
I know this happens. Several years ago I was associate pastor at a church in GA and called my pastor out on padding the numbers…in baptisms and in attendance. He never padded the finance numbers because the treasurer (a godly lady) knew what he was dong and intentionally put her numbers in last and then immediately mailed the ACP. (thankfully that man is no longer holding the office of pastor; he was not a God called pastor anyway – he looked at it as a {gasp} great gig.
I also know that much of decline in membership in recent years was due to churches eliminating “absent”names from their roles. Regenerate church membership has become a focus – and one of the signs of a regenerate individual is their faithful attendance and participation in the work of the Lord in and through the local church. (almost every SB church that I know of in my area has done this). Its a good thing.
It may impact our ‘numbers’, but it will also improve the health of our churches….and THAT is the goal we all should seek.
Tarheel, good stuff.
I think as long as we basically have two Sunday Schools, the 10:00 A.M. and 11:00 A.M. services there will be a decline in Baptisms.
At 11:00 folks wants some good preaching, loud and powerful. The choir shouldn’t put folks to sleep either. When folks get excited about what they have, then they become willing to share it.
For years, when I see a church with a cemetery behind it or beside it,
I think, how appropriate. The bodies in the building and in the cemetery
are dead. Those dry bones need to come alive.
I’m glad that Jesus is still the Earth blesser, the devil defeater, and the body resurrector. I’ll Amen this myself.
Wow a thread over 100 posts that does not really mention Calvinism! Who would have thought!
Anyway, in looking at this decline, I think we as SBC folk have to start asking ourselves where are these people going?
There are several options: 1) Are we loosing members mostly through attrition (ie older members dying, no younger members entering the church)? This is a real possibility. The greatest generation is all but gone, and the baby boomer generation is starting to decline as well. These two large pools of members are hard to replace in the churches. It cannot happen simply through baptisms of members children, unless we get our families to start having 5+ kids each.
2) Are people just leaving the faith/church (ie any church)? Count in this option children who just never believe and never get baptized.
3) Are people leaving the SBC for other Christian groups like the Word of Faith easy believes heretics. This one we have to face reality. Scripture is quite clear that there will people who “claim” to believe, but run off to follow teachings that “tickle the ear”. The myth that we can convert most people to Christianity (especially OUR version of Christianity, ie the SBC) is simply false. MOST people who reject the message of the gospel, including our children. Further, we must remember that just because someone is baptized into a SBC church, does not mean they are really believers. If someone is baptized as a kid as SBC, but then later as an adult goes off to follow Benny Hinn or Joyce Meyers, I am sorry, but I doubt they ever believe in Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior, no matter what they told themselves or others.
3) People leaving to join “culturally relevant” churches. I think this is responsible for a large amount of “young people” leaving the church. Despite my age personally enjoy a good hymn. My favorite song to sing in church is an old hymn (Nearer my God to Thee in case you were wondering). But many in the 20’s to 30’s dont like that style of music. They like contemporary songs, and are just as sticklers for scripturally sound music, as “old timers” are with their hymns. Some churches have tried to fix this by doing “spit” services, one Contemporary, one Traditional, but this in my opinion NEVER works. One group, sooner or later, will feel left out and second class, and they will leave. As it is usually the “traditional” crowd that holds the purse strings, it is usually the younger groups who leave. This problem is two fold. You have an older group who is unwilling to try something new, and a younger group that is unwilling to accept that something “older” can be just as good as something new.
4) Decline of rural populations. Rural towns and areas are in decline. This is a fact. Small towns that in the 50’s and 60’s had 2000-3000 people now may barely have 500. If the town supported a FBC of 200 years ago, now they barely can hit 50. These churches are just NOT going to see numerical growth. To expect them to do so, is not going to happen.
These last two are not so much why are we declining, but rather why are we not growing.
5) The changing ethnic makeup of our country. We are doing better in expanding our denomination to more than just the “white southerner” denomination, but we have more work to do. We need to start reaching out to the inner cities, to the black, and hispanic, and every other group out there. Further, we need to stop with these segregated churches and start mixing our congregations!
6) Failure of Evangelism. Far too many churches think VBS is all they need to do with evangelism. Or maybe it is an annual church sale. Or something else that is a yearly “big event”. But the other 364 days of the year the church does nothing to reach out to its community. Maybe part of this is because we no longer go to churches that are down the street (and thus are invested into that micro-community) but rather travel 10, 20, 30 miles to go to church. When we do that, we dont care about the area our church is in, because we dont live there. And we dont out reach in our own neighborhoods because that is “some other churches responsibility”. Even if expand our “outreach” to the entire city, we still find far too many churches doing NOTHING! Why? Probably part laziness to work, part fear of rejection, part unbelief in our own pews. Far too many churches ask themselves “have we done enough” when we should be asking ourselves “What can we do more!” I also think this lack of evangelism is in a small way due to the bulk of our attention being on overseas missions, sometimes at the neglect of home missions. I think it would be telling to look and see what gets more each year Lottie Moon or Annie Armstrong.
Anyway that is my thoughts on the subject, for what little they are.
PS…sorry for the numerous spelling and grammatical mistakes. I wrote this rather than going to bed, which I think I now shall go do.
Despite your sleep deprivation, some good, solid points and analysis.
“””your church isn’t doing anything,””””
How would somebody know this if they don’t even know where my church is or what we are–or are not doing.
Sad.
Well, you had stated earlier I have no idea if you fit the profile of those people whom I supposedly have “contempt”. You are exactly right. So why in the world you took my post to mean YOU is quite telling. What about the beginning of every sentence in my initial post with the word “maybe” do you not understand?
Of course, I did not display any contempt for anyone or anything. All I ever said was that the general decline problem may be tied to a general failure of church and institutional leadership and that leaders ought to examine themselves, and if these leaders discover they are part of the problem and not bearing fruit in their ministry, perhaps they should get with it or get out of the way.
How that could ever be read as contempt is beyond me.
But, were I to guess, given the state of the SBC, and your totally personal and defensive posturing, I’d say it is a safe bet since I am more likely to be right than wrong, and if I am wrong, then who really cares besides you? I know I don’t…
I take from your responses to me, which have been far, far, far more ugly than you could possibly accuse me of, and you are just some fella (or lady for all I know) going by Frank L. on a blogsite, I could not possibly care if I have gotten on your nerves at this point, given your grumpy old man demeanor and vitriol towards me and the mischaracterizations of my posts.
Sad indeed.
Jonathan,
Please excuse Frank, he hasn’t had his prunes today.
I would like to offer some thoughts, anonymously. Why so secretive? Well, I pastor a small rural church and I do not intend to point particular fingers or “name names” as is so often desired. If my name were on this post people would think I was attacking them. I’m not, just stating what I’ve seen. However, what I say can probably be found in communities all across the nation. In fact, the “Oregon Guy,” Dale, pointed towards this reality as have others.
One gentleman noted above the typical life-span of pastors with churches. Had he continued to develop that thought I probably would not have posted this. Yes, the typical pastor stays less than 5 years, but what really happens during that time? Take the area in which I serve as an example: Pastor comes in and whips the congregation into shape. New members are accrued through baptism (yes!) AND transfer of letter. Everything looks good, and things bump along for a few years.
Eventually the pastor tires of constantly having to goad people on (don’t forget, he’s the one that started that) and God “calls” him away. The “heart” that he had for a people of a community changes very quickly to a “heart” for somewhere/anywhere else. The church declines with many of the church transfers moving back to their “home” church or somewhere else where things are really happening.
What happens eventually is that the people tire of the constant change and many do as Dale has noted; they go somewhere that others are doing the ministry for them. In fact, the ladies at WartWatch are planning a blog post on this very phenomenon this week. The large/mega churches are being built upon the backs of the rural/small churches. New church plants are similarly deceptive in that people who want to “do something” leave a place which offered them many opportunities, but they did not want to serve alongside certain people/agendas/personalities/etc and start a new church which then immediately siphons off members from surrounding churches.
I don’t fight it. When folks tell me that they are looking for “something happening” I just smile a small smile and continue on. When students that I led in ministry tell me they aren’t comfortable in their current church and are looking for somewhere that “fits” them better I simply ask them how that lines up with Scripture. When family members tell me that they just can’t get along with folks in their church and they are thinking about trying the “happening” church I just ask them how they would defend their view from the Bible.
Crickets …
Keep teaching, keep preaching; words I tell others and words that I often need to hear myself.
I have been out of circulation for several weeks due to a move, a heart problem, and etc. But one of the things that has occurred to me is that we are dealing with a society that has grown intensely hostile to the Christian Faith. Moreover, secularism has become the controling force in our educational, judicial, political, and other systems, a secularism that is inimical to the supernaturalism of the Bible and the Gospel. The minister is being drummed out of the public arena and religion is fast becoming a private affair, a belief and behavior system not allowed to manifest itself in the various areas of life. At least that has been and is the aim of much of the public atmosphere concerning one of the great key factors in American life. The educational system has become exceedingly hostile to the Christian Faith, and yet Baptists, for example, were one of the most vocal supporters and participants in the American Revolution, making perhaps one of the most significant contributions to freedom in history, namely, religious liberty. Already we have advocates who want to do away with religious liberty, freedom of speech, assembly, and the press along with the other mass media is practically gone in the corporate buyouts and controls. Time to wake up. We are facing a new reality.
Dr Willingham,
Glad to see you back. Missed you.
Thank you brother Pemberton. I did not think I would make it back. In fact, when my problem occurred, I thought i was dying. The doctor said later that the defibilator saved my life. One never knows what God has appointed….or when or where or how? But I am thankful anyway.
Great to hear from you Dr Willingam. You have been missed. I’m sure that in all you have been doing you have also been praying for the next Great Awakening. 🙂 For that I am grateful.
Thank you, Dean. I have sought to continue to pray for the Third Great Awakening all during my difficulties, but there were some days in which I failed to do so (five days in a hospital will punch a hole in one’s prayer life, except for pleading for God’s help). However, as soon as I was home and able, I continued to pray for such and will continue until God answers. The future of His work, as Adoniram Judson said, “is as bright as His promises.” At least that is what my poor memory tells me.
I hope you are feeling better now, Dr. Willingham. I will keep you in my prayers. God Bless.
Dr Willlingham,
The media has an underlying hostility toward Christianity, too. Though they are not as vocal (yet) and they continue to “entertain” satan’s propaganda through every medium at every age level, they will desire to appeal to the audience that continues to go the way of Sodom & Gomorrah. Once it becomes popular again to publicly condemn Christians they will think of a means of entertainment to turn our TV’s into a coliseum and feed us to the lions.
You are right, we need to wake up. Every believer needs to do some “self-equipping” NOW before the “SBC Titanic” can be turned. Preachers are not going to turn it, lay people will have the greatest responsibility of praying that the rudder be turned in time.
Bruce, the greatest help that I have found in praying for the changes desired, especially that of such a visitation as a Third Great Awakening, is derived from Jonathan Edweards, Humble Attempt, which lists perhaps a 100 promises/prophecies of such a possibility. This, by the way, is the tract that inspired William Carey, Andrew Fuller, and others to pray for and then to launch the Great Century of Missions. I think it can continue to serve a like purpose today. I prepared messages on the subject of Awakenings, making use of the texts cited by Edwards in that tract. It is in Vol II of the Banner of Truth Edition, on page 253ff, I think. The power of Heaven coming down to earth is surely the only means that can alter the whole earth, and the Bible does speak of the stone becoming a great mountain and filling the whole earth…a long with other like texts.
Dr. J! We’re glad you’re back! I asked just the other day about you, and several of us have been wondering where you were. Glad you are now well. Hope that you’re rested and to get back at it, brother. You’ve been missed!
Appreciate your interest Brother Pugh. However, well is another question. My heart went into arrythmia (aphib) ( I can’t spell these terms and my dictionary is lost among 15,000 volumes of books setting in two rooms and the basement (thank God for 50 members of one church and about 20 of another that pitched in and moved us). Anyway, my heart is continuing with the help of a pacemaker, defibilator and a new stent (sp?). My heart’s desire is to see these blogs began to focus on prayer for a Third Great Awakening, a visitation, a coming down of Heaven to earth (like in the hymn, Heaven Came Down and Glory filled my Soul). If you all get a chance, take a look at a blog I wrote on Dr. Paige Patterson’s Points on Election for SBC Today. I dare say that it (Dr. Patterson’s Points on Election) will go along way to bringing peace to the conflict. In fact, his approach could be used for every one of the doctrines of grace and for the points of the Traditionalists as well. We might well be on the very of the unity and amity needed to pursue a real course of prayer for the blessing desired. You will have to go back about a two months on that blog, but it will have a link to Dr. Patterson’s Points which were written last fall. Dr. Patterson actually said somethings about the doctrine that a Calvinist could not have stated any better. And then on the 28th of April our Traditionalist Pastor preached a message on Jesus Wept, and I complimented him, saying it was right up there with Spurgeon. He found out that I really meant, when my son told I had said so. They were visiting together with me, while waiting for the doctors to do a catherization on me. My prayer for SBC Voices and SBC Today is that they shall become means to the beginning of such a prayer effort as will bring the desired and blessed event of such a visitation and awakening, the likes of which the world has never imagined or envisioned. I pray that all of you fellows shall feel the presence, that awesome presence which is none other than our Lord and Saviour present to us in the person and work of the Holy Spirit. Brethren, set a time, get the promises from Edwards’ Humble Attempt and began praying for such a revival, the one that wins the whole earth in one generation, even takes whole nations in a single day or night or a single week or month or year or decade or whatever, so long as Jesus is honored and glorified.
Perhaps James,
The new reality may very well be an American society in which a more individualistic and personal approach (private) to the Christian faith is carried out under the constraints of law.
Won’t bode well, I admit, for demoninational and doctrinal collectives like the SBC, but could also be the starting point for some kind of awakening.
It would not be the first time in history that Christians (due to circumstances beyond their control) have been driven to such a point.
There is a generation of young leaders who no longer self identify as SBC. Too much inward thinking, too much wishing for the past to come back, too much organizational overhead all combined to give them little reason to stay. The response of the SBC for the most part was “good riddance”. That chicken is now coming home to roost.
If the convention were turned over to these “young leaders” you speak of it would be dead in a year.
The great hope of youth is largely a myth.
God in his Word has a very high view of age–He is quite old by human standards. I think He despises generational wars more than any other struggle in church life.
The entire church growth movement is discovering the myth of youth as these churches get older.
Truth be told, Frank, the generations are interdependent. We can learn and find help from every generation, if we are willing to pay the price to listen.
No argument with that Dr. J.
My greatest grief, Frank, has been my failure to listen.
“He (God) is quite old by human standards”
He is ‘ever new’, if you understanding that He is ‘Being Itself’ . . . being constantly ‘generated’ anew as the Source of all in existence, and all existence could cease to be, yet He would remain undiminished in His Being . . . hard to fathom, impossible to fathom
‘ever ancient’ and yet ‘ever new’ is the way St. Augustine attempted to describe God, but it was only an attempt 🙂
That still sounds pretty old in “human standards” 🙂
I remember when the same thing was happening during the “Jesus People” movement of the late 60’s and early 70’s. I wasn’t even a teenager when it was going on, but I remember the same song being sung back then.
Dave
You will most likely disagree vehemently with me on my response to your post, and I don’t comment regularly as my viewpoint is typically divergent from a vast majority of your posters – but here I go.
First, I think the SBC is having trouble due to its warrior nature since the CR. We have always said that were against the ends justify the means mentality – until a majority in the SBC were for it in the CR. As a result many good conservative people lost jobs or were totally marginalized just because they were not card carrying members of the CR. My frame of reference for the CR is Texas and SWBTS. What I know about what happened there is that when they could not find liberals to get rid of, they got rid of the only two female professors in the school of theology, one history and one Hebrew. These were good conservative ladies and are only a symptom of the overall warrior mentality. Another example is what was done to the school of Counseling. The philosophy that only Biblical Based Counseling would be taught at SWBTS prevailed, the department was decimated, the professors moved on and Southern Baptists lost the only evangelical presence in the world of counseling. SWBTS is now a shadow of what it once was.
Secondly, we are majoring on the minors. One would think that in order to be a conservative SBCer these days, that one must be a strict complementation, an entire cottage industry has arisen around the CBMW. The problem with this is that we are not in the 50s anymore. We who are in the workforce work with and have female bosses, we see women lead countries and are CEOs of fortune 500 companies. Then we walk into church and are led to believe, if not by word, but by action, that women should aspire to live in the 50s and be happy to be told what to do by their husbands. I realize that I am engaging in just a bit of hyperbole, but why would women want to walk into a denomination where they are not treated as equals when they are treated as equals in every other part of society. The problem with the comp issue, is that it is an interpretive issue. Much like the cessation issue there are scriptures and noted conservatives who don’t see the comp/egal issue the same way, arguing the point only drives people away, and away from the SBC.
Thirdly, the 20 something demographic and younger have weird philosophies. The have been raised to be inclusive to an extreme, gay marriage is a ho hum issue to them and to not shack up before marriage makes no sense. They drink and pat themselves on the back for not doing weed. As the father of kids in their 20s and talking to their friends who are Christians I walk away just shaking my head at the lack of what I think are strong morals – and these are kids who were raised “right”! As some of these kids have started to find their way back to church, especially after having their own kids, I see them struggle and start to come back, but that whole inclusiveness thing is very entrenched.
My answer goes back to your brick wall idea, but with a caveat. Lets only worry about the brick wall issues, and I would add believers baptism to the brick wall. Calvinism, Complementarinism, Warrior mentality etc need to go away. The fact is they won’t, people are too invested in their own pet issues. With the 20 somethings, I see some of them who are actually quite idealistic, and once they are given a ministry in the church are very faithful to that ministry, but it is a long difficult road.
I don’t know if the SBC will lose its nostalgia for the 50s, and as long as there are power positions warriors will seek those positions. The SBC lasted a long time and will continue in some form albeit smaller for years to come. Guys like Fred Luter are fantastic, but like the US, we have these bureaucracies underneath them that are almost impossible to overcome once they get started.
Eric, there is a lot of reality in what you have written. The problem with our new returnees to biblical orthodoxy is that they still have a long way to go. You are quite right that some of them used the end justifies the means to accomplish the goal of a conservative resurgence, and that is truly sad. People get hurt, badly hurt. some I suspect perish. What the Bible believers fail to realize, I count myself as one who voted conservative everytime, is that even the most Bible believing professor and practioner can hide the heart of a hypocrite under the most devout exterior. Seems that no one suspected Judas, when Jesus said, “One of you shall betray me.” They all said, “It is not me, is it Lord?” Like they questioned themselves. Ethics must have its place in our return to Scripture, a hard matter considering that our nature is prone to wander and go astray.
Lord, I hope the SBC isn’t nostalgia for the 1950’s. Next to the civil war, that was probably the most wicked era in American History.
“The Sixties were no fouler a decade than the Fifties—they merely reaped the Fifties’ foul harvest—but they were the years when millions of people grew aware that the industrial society had become paradoxically unlivable, incalculably immoral, and ultimately deadly. In terms of passwords, the Sixties were the time when the word progress lost its ancient holiness, and escape stopped being comically obscene.” – Peter S. Beagle
Everything we loathe about contemporary American culture came from the 1950’s, but seems that very few admit it.
“…seems that very few admit it”
I don’t admit it. That seems to be a myopic view of US history. BTW, I don’t know of anyone who is nostalgic for the 50’s. I don’t really know anybody who remembers the 50’s outside of being in grammar school.
Were they the 2nd “most wicked era”? Hardly. Manifest Destiny? Trail of tears? Indian wars? 90 years of slavery under Ol’ Glory before the War Between the States? The wickedness in the mid 19th century was widespread. Consider the fruit of 1,000,000 dead because the majority would not let 11 member states leave the Union. etc… It goes on and on and on. The whole world is wicked. Always has been, always will be.
Being against the 50’s is just as bad as being nostalgic for the 50’s (if anyone actually is…)
Jonathan, the nostalgia within the SBC for the 1950’s has been readdressed by the CR.
There are those currently within the SBC who prefer that any new nostalgia be reflective of 1850 and prior.
The exit of the younger generation of leaders from SBC life is not primarily a matter of power but of the priorities and nostalgia of the leadership.
Yeah, my generation said the same thing 20-30 years ago. Every generation thinks it’s facing an uphill battle against the old guard who doesn’t want to change. That’s been a problem since Noah’s three boys got off the Ark.
Dale, I laughed, when I read your comment about Noah’s boys getting off the Ark. Thanks for a little relief.