This is a post, at full length, by Dr. Russell Moore: I highlighted a few important parts in the post and following the post I have a few questions…
“Last week I stood over the Valley of Armageddon, with Israeli warjets flying overhead and the sound of the Muslim call to prayer humming all around from the loudspeakers attached to the mosques below. It was a sobering moment, more sobering even than the images of explosions in Gaza seen on television round the clock.
Israel is, as always it seems, at war. So should Christians pray especially for Israel, for the Jewish people?
Dispensationalists have served the church by pointing us to our responsibility to support the Jewish people and the nation of Israel through a century that has seen the most horrific anti-Semitic violence imaginable.
We need not hold to a dispensationalist view of the future restoration of Israel (and I don’t) to agree that such support is a necessary part of a Christian eschatology (and I do).
Novelist Walker Percy pointed to the continuing existence of Jewish people as a sign of God’s presence in the world. There are no Hittites walking about on the streets of New York, he remarked.
There does appear to be a promise of a future conversion of Jewish people to Christ (Rom 9-11). The current secular state of Israel is not the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham; Jesus is.
Nonetheless, the state of Israel is important, indeed critically important. The nation is the guardian of post-Holocaust world Judaism. This does not necessitate that we support every political decision of the Israeli government (and I don’t). It does mean that we stand with Israel against every form of anti-Semitic violence.
We know that these are the kinsmen according to the flesh of our Messiah. There’s a reason, therefore, the Powers rage against them so. A Christian anti-Semite is a contradiction in terms.”
I also want to post a couple of quotes from John Piper on this issue:
“How should Bible-believing Christians align themselves in the Jewish-Palestinian conflict? There are Biblical reasons for treating both sides with compassionate public justice in the same way that disputes should be settled between nations generally. In other words, the Bible does not teach us to be partial to Israel or to the Palestinians because either has a special divine status.”
“The Christian plea in the Middle East to Palestinians and Jews is: “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). And until that great day when both Jewish and Gentile followers of King Jesus inherit the earth (not just the land), without lifting sword or gun, the rights of nations should be decided by the principles of compassionate and public justice, not claims to national divine right or status.”
My questions:
How is supporting the Jewish people and the nation of Israel a necessary part of Christian eschatology? How would you explain this to a Palestinian Christian?
Why should Christians care to preserve post-Holocaust world Judaism and not, say, postcolonial Indian Hinduism? Both are false religions, right?
Also, here is a comment from another blogger in respond to Dr. Moore’s post:
Too often I find Christians automatically backing/supporting Israel regardless of their actions. I think blind support of any country, whether it be Israel or America, tends to make Christians look like uninformed/caustic fools.
What are your thoughts? If the promises of Abraham were fulfilled in the person and work of Jesus(which they were), why is supporting Israel necessary?
I put a post up very similar to this one on my personal site, but it dint get much interaction, so I thought I’d post it here.
I would really like to hear what you all have to say.
When deciding which “side” I should take in the conflict between Israel and Palestine, I ask myself one simple question:
Which side is it that sends suicide bombers, many times children, out to kill innocent civilians?
Once I answer that question, picking out the good guys from the bad guys is pretty simple.
Joe,
While I think both sides are guilty of your charge- my main question is not “who is the good guys.”
My main question is:
Why/Is supporting Israel a necessary part of Christian Eschatology? (as Dr. Moore claims)
Well, I hope your question wouldn’t be “Who isthe good guys?” It would be “are”**. Just sayin’ 🙂 Further, I have never heard of Israel doing any sort of suicide bombing especially involving children. I guess my point was even if you don’t believe it’s necessary to Christian Eschatology, it just makes sense to support the guys wearing the white hats in this conflict. Of course, others may have a different take. And that’s ok, they can be wrong if they want to. **I saw a tee shirt the other day that you just reminded me of. It said “I… Read more »
Thats a funny shirt… And yes, I meant ARE!
Im not saying Israel has suicide bombed children- I dont know if they have. What I am saying is that usually when war is going on there is never a “fully innocent” side. We can support Israel in terms of politics and war, but that doesnt mean it is part of our Eschatology- as you said.
But, just because someone supports Israel politically it doesnt mean they should endorse all that they do.
Evangelicals, in general, do support Israel unwavering, suggesting that modern Israel is the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, often pointing to Ezekiel 37 as their proof. Netanyahu himself even pointed to this passage as proof that modern Israel was the fulfillment of prophecy. The problem with this view is that the passage also talks about the Holy Spirit being in the people. Only believers have the Holy Spirit, so that view should be automatically debunked. When I’ve discussed these issues with people who support Israel, it comes down to their salvation. Somehow, they have come to the conclusion that supporting Israel… Read more »
Chris,
I agree with you about Ezekiel 37-28. That is our Dispy friends favorite place to go on this issue- and Daniel 9:24-27, OF COURSE!
I understand why supporting Israel is a MUST for dispensationals, but I dont understand, at all, why supporting Israel is a must for all Christian Eschatology, as Moore argues. “Supporting Israel” just because they are Israel seems inconsistent for people who arent Dispensational.
I don’t understand why supporting Israel is a must for all Christian Eschatology either.
A good book on this is, “Whose Promised Land?” by Colin Chapman. He also has one, “Whose Holy City,” but I haven’t read it. He’s very clearly an Amillenialist and helped to shape some of my eschatological views in the past 5 years.
I should pick that up… Does he argue that the “promised land” wont be fully fulfilled until the New Heavens and New Earth- meaning the “promised land” is for all who believe?
Graeme Goldsworthy, Kim Riddlebarger, Anthony Hoekema, and Sam Storms have been my primary “Eschatology shapers.” In that order.
I believe that he does argue that way. Colin Chapman was a professor at the Seminary in Lebanon. He is now retired and living in England. He’s Anglican, I believe, but don’t quote me on that.
Interesting, Matt. I let my eschatology be shaped more by Daniel, Paul, John and Jesus.
Oh, snap!
I support israel because it is a freedom loving state and all good Reformed persons should let freedom ring!!!!
When is the last time you observed a muslim state that had freedom of religion?
Robert I Masters
I support Israels “freedom.” But that has nothing to do with my eschatology.
Someone recently commented to me that if we want to be blessed by God we should support Israel.
LOL… Did he give a verse? I really hope he threw out an awful proof text. Christians can be hilarious- as if our blessing from God comes from our “work” in supporting Israel. And yet those same people say- we aren’t Israel-centered, we are Christ centered! Riiiiiight.
I’d be rich if I had a penny for every time someone told me that. We could probably pay down the U.S. debt.
Do they quote, “God blesses those who bless Israel and curses those who curse Israel” as being from the Bible? Btw, that specific phrase is not found in the Bible. The original phrase is spoken directly to Abraham and does not directly refer to Abraham’s descendants, though it is repeated in some form or another a couple of more times, but not directly referring to “Israel.”
Dr. Moore’s comments are a breath of fresh air to me. I do support Israel–a good bit of the time–but it is not any part of my eschatology. I believe Paul settled that when he wrote, “. . . not all who are descended from Israel are Israel” (Romans 9:6) and, “Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God” (Galatians 6: 15-16). The church–the transformed, believing church–is now the Israel of God. As far as the modern, secular state of Israel,… Read more »
Seems a lot of what i wanted to say has been said. Thanks Chris. And we have to keep ion mind, both sides have done things that we would consider horrible. Both sides deserve our prayer, and when the innocent on both sides suffer, we must be outraged no matter who it is.
I believe (contrary probably to most of you scoffers and assorted reprobates – sorry, Matt) that there is a literal future for the nation of Israel. I attended Dallas Seminary and remember what one of our profs said. He, of course, believed in the future restoration and salvation of Israel (per Romans 11), but warned us about being too blind in our support of the current nation of Israel. I believe that the nation Israel will one day be restored to its place as the chosen people of God, after being set aside for a time until the “full number… Read more »
As someone who has both been to Israel and yet has “left behind” dispensationalism, I’m eager to jump in. Tomorrow on my day off at least!
“assorted reprobates”! Well, at least you’re willing to recognize the distinctions of all our heresies, Dave! Lol
Well, Dave if you want to believe that God is working backwards- go right ahead! But, I’m going to stick with the thought of- “God is moving forward to complete his mission.” God’s people=those united with Christ. Evidence of that=the entire New Testament(arguably- the whole Bible). Seriously, say the temple gets rebuilt and sacrifices go on again- wouldnt that be blasphemous? Why would Dispensationals support that? And if they dont support it, why do they look forward to it so much? (this is kind of off the topic of the post so feel free not to answer- we can save… Read more »
Dave, I do have a question though, regarding a weird inconsistency I’ve found from some of my dispy acquaintances. (i know you might not hold this, but i’ve heard this type of thinking) Some dispensationalists are super eager to point out the return of Israel to the land in 1948 as prophetic proof the end is near. (although most passages they cite are clearly about the return from exile in the BC’s). But they also oppose Israel taking any form of peace treaty with their neighbors (though they have had generally good ones with Egypt and Jordan) because that might… Read more »
Josh, I will admit something here, even though I don’t want to give Mr. Svoboda any ammo. There are two (well, probably more) “dispensational pre-mill” streams of thought. There are scholarly dispensational pre-trib folks and there are the popularists – the Jack Van Impe/Hal Lindsey types. The sensationalists raise a lot of issues that more serious dispensationalists are not really concerned wth. The fact that Israel exists is significant, but most of us do not see the 1948 founding as the re-budding of the nation. At the risk of whining a little, dispensationalism haters often take the easy road. They… Read more »
Dave,
That is actually a very good, fair point. But, I assure you, when I devastate Dispensationalism I will go straight to the big boys. 🙂
l’m sure Walvoord and Pentecost (and Veich) are shaking in their boots.
Dave,
I think you sort of answered my question as I was sort of feeling out whether the better thought-out, less “ripped from the headlines” forms of dispensationalism really put much stock into the events of 1948 (Ez. 37!- o wait, then the new covenant couldn’t have started until 1948 either…oops) and how exactly that affected their view of the geo-political state of Israel/peace treaties.
The warring sides of Israel and the radical Palestinians (not all) are no more morally equal than the USA and the terrorists we fight. Israel does not send suicide bombers, including children. Israel has many Arabs living within the borders of Israel proper. They live there in relative peace and security and prosper. They are Israeli citizens. On the other hand, when Israel pulled out of Gaza they had to evacuate all the Jews, or they would have been murdered by the militants. Israel is a democracy, surrounded by dictatorships. Israel has a tiny sliver of land; the Arabs have… Read more »
I have read John MacArthur and other dispensationalists speak about the new Temple and sacrifices resumed. It just blows my mind. Didn’t Christ end every need for sacrifice? And yet, we are told, in the millennium, animal sacrifices will be made. I don’t know if all dipsys believe this however. On Israel: Support them when they are right and not when they are wrong. Same with Palestine, Jordan, Syria, England, and Lithuania. The mindset of “if Israel does it, it must be right” is frightening. We’ve got off the wall people like John Hagee over there trying to instigate WWIII… Read more »
I think this is a difficult topic to have a great discussion on simply because too many variables are up for debate! Eschatology (only about 27 different views on that…and those 27 just represent each update of Hal Lindsay’s books!!!); US foreign policy; Christian missions; terrorism/response to terrorism; Christian views on war; etc. But I’ll throw my hat in the ring anyways! I was blessed to go on a trip to Israel in high school. I’ve seen some of the great and ingenious ways that the tiny strip of land has been filled with resources from irrigation and hard work.… Read more »
Hey guys, in my humble, but correct, opinion, on this issue of premillennialism, Dave Miller is exactly right.
But we love the rest of you anyway :-).
David R. Brumbelow
And we promise not to gloat while the Rapture is occurring.
Dave and David: You believe animal sacrifices will be conducted during the millennial reign of Christ? Just curious.
One of the thorniest questions for my viewpoint. I think every eschatological view has some tough issues they have to face. That is one of the toughest for us.
I’ve not really come to a definite position on it.
Dave,
Is there a “majority” view amongst the “academic Dispys” on that question?
Yes, we will find out for sure during the Millennium!
Dispensationalists have a predilection for literal interpretation, so I think (haven’t studied it or taken a poll recently) they might fall on that side.
But its a thorny issue. I’ll have to pull out my “Things to Come” and check it out.
Dave,
No matter whether or not most dispys believe it- wouldnt it be blasphemous to have animal sacrifices during the Millennium? Isnt the cross enough?
Blasphemous? Wow, that’s a little strong isn’t it?
The idea, I think, would not be that the sacrifices are propitiatory, but that, like the Lord’s supper today, they are commemorative.
Hebrews 8:13
“By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” (spec. in reference to the OT sacrificial system)
that’s my thought on resumption of sacrifices during a millennium. I’m still about 50/50 on whether there will be one, but I’m about 99/1 that there won’t be animal sacrifices there!
I have a hard time imagining the commemorative slaughter of innocent creatures. The lion may lay down the with lamb, but the lamb is still going to get its throat cut?
Dave,
I only used the word “blasphemous” because I thought the sacrifices would be done in the same way as in the OT- with the same meaning. That is my misunderstanding.
But commemorative of what? How does animal sacrifices commemorate the sacrifice of Christ? I guess I am having a hard time understanding why God would want to go back to animal sacrifices, for any reason.
We commemorate Christ’s sacrifice by partaking of the Lord’s Supper. Much nicer all around. We don’t need a temple or animals drained of their blood. Just bread and wine.
(I just had a wicked thought. I’m willing to bet some Baptists would rather cut a lamb’s throat rather than drink a thimbleful of wine at communion)
Bill, You can be a pre-tribulational premillennialist and not necessarily have a view one way or the other on animal sacrifice in the millenium. I don’t know all the details of the millennium, but I do know there will be peace on earth and Jesus Christ will rule and reign. He has given us the big picture in His Word. I’ll leave a few of the details up to Him :-). One other point. Premillennialists interpret prophecy concerning the return of Christ more literally than others. But that doesn’t mean we see nothing as symbolic. However, the prophecy concerning the… Read more »
David, “However, the prophecy concerning the first comming of Christ in Bethlehem was fulfilled literally; so isn’t it logical to believe the prophecy concerning His return will also be fulfilled literally?” Even most Amills will say, yes, to that question. For example- is the promise of the land going to be literally fulfilled? Yes- it will literally be fulfilled in the New Heavens and the New Earth. While Premills would say- Yes. the promise will be fulfilled literally to Israel before Christ returns. Both have “literal “interpretations”, they are just fulfilled literally in a different way. Also- as you said,… Read more »
David, Also, with that line of thinking-“first coming had literal fulfillment, therefore, the second coming will be fulfilled”- you get yourself into a bind. If you are going to be consistent you have to interpret everything literally, which you obviously dont do(which is good). Why don’t you? Because Scripture warrants symbolic interpretations in many places. Our only disagreement is where exactly those places are. No Premill actually follows through with that logic consistently- it cant be done! What Scripture warrants to be interpreted as literally- we should interpret it literally, what Scripture warrants to be interpreted symbolically- we should interpret… Read more »
Matt, Premillennialists see prophecy and Revelation as being much more literal than amillennialists do. Amillennialists take prophecy much more symbolically than do premillennialists. But no, we obviously don’t take everything literally. You say both amillennialists and premillennialists believe God’s promise of land to Israel is going to be fulfilled literally. I disagree. God gave Abraham’s descendants specific land forever; and said it would be restored to them. How can an amillennialist say God will not give them that land, then turn around and say they believe in the literal fulfillment of that prophecy? Premillennialists believe in a literal fulfillment of… Read more »
David, Check out how the Apostle Paul interprets the land interpretation in Romans 4:13. “For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.” He is what the ESVSB says about that verse: The promise given to Abraham embraces not only the land of Canaan but also the whole world. The final reward (the inheritance, which is another term for final salvation) that will be given to Abraham and all believers is the world to come (cf. Heb. 11:10–16; Revelation 21–22). The… Read more »
Matt, Sorry, I don’t see Romans 4:13 as canceling out or changing the prophecies God made to Israel about their land. This verse refers to all the promises of God to Abraham – a nation, descendants, Scripture, Jesus, salvation. Premillennialist John MacArthur takes this view. Robert H. Mounce takes this view in a footnote in the New American Commentary. Jews and Gentiles who have taken Christ as their Messiah and Savior will share in all things. Prophecy at times separates Jews and Gentiles, and at times includes them all (in Romans, Revelation, etc.). By the way, from your comments above,… Read more »
David, While I understand the view that Paul is talking about more than the promise of land- the majority view amongst Amills and Historic Premills is that Paul IS specifically referencing the land when he mentions the “whole world.” While I know MacArthur and others take it more generally, the majority view is that he is specifically referencing the promise of the land, because he actually specifies land- the whole world! Amen… One of my favorite things about discussing eschatology is that it is one doctrine that brings up no “ill-feelings!” lol… All of the main views are within orthodoxy… Read more »
Did Christ and the Apostles support Israel?
If so, how?
If not, why not?
Matt, I agree, well, on some of what you say :-). Mark, You ask, “Did Christ and the Apostles support Israel?” I would say yes. I’m sure there is more evidence, but some thoughts: Jesus and His apostles were living under Roman domination. Many of His disciples felt then that He had come to restore the kingdom to Israel. Instead, in the New Testament Jesus came to be the suffering Servant. When He returns He will return to rule over the house of David and then the kingdom will be restored to Israel. Many, though not all, premillennialists believe that… Read more »
It may be too late but let me ask a somewhat obvious question.
How do Christians “support” Israel? More specifically, what “support” would we or should we give to Israel that we would not or should not give to Palestine, Syria, Greenland, or Peru?
If “do you support Israel” is going to have any meaning at all as a question, then “support” has to be defined, and that support has to be somewhat unique from what we might do for some other country. Otherwise saying “I support Israel” is just a platitude.
Bill, You ask how we can support Israel. 1. Pray for them, their safety, their security. They live in an entirely different world than we do and while they have a tenuous treaty or two, they are basically surrounded by enemies. Enemy tanks could roll across their entire country in much less than a day. They have to always be on guard. Get a Middle East map and see the size of their country as compared to the surrounding nations and the Arab and Muslim controlled lands. “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: May they prosper who love you.” -Psalm… Read more »
David: In what way are the things you listed unique to Israel and not any country, or at least many countries? Should we not, for example, do all of those things for Mexico, substituting of course, anti-hispanic sentiment for anti-semitism. What I think most Christians mean by supporting Israel, frankly, is always taking their side. No one will say it, everyone will deny it, but that is what it appears to boil down to. I think if we, (and our government) were a little tougher on Israel when they are wrong, it would be much easier to support them when… Read more »
Bill, I’m also for supporting Mexico and America does spend large amounts to help them in various ways. I am not against Arabs or Muslims, although as a Christian I would disagree with Islam. Some of my favorite BP stories are those that tell of our missionaries giving out Bibles and Christian literature to those in Europe boarding ferries to North Africa. The biggest source of Bibles in North Africa is a result of our missionary work. America (its important to distinguish between what our government does, and what we as Christians and missionaries do; they are separate) has liberated… Read more »
There’s not doubt that America is a strong ally to Israel. I’m not so sure Israel is a strong ally to us. I’m not quite sure what Israel does for us, but I’m not an expert in these things. As for God promising them the land; yes, He did. But He also has, at various times, removed them from the land when they were in rebellion. I don’t think there is any question that they are still in rebellion against God, therefore I, as a Christian, don’t feel any particular need to support their reacquisition of their ancient land. Although… Read more »
To follow up on Bill’s point to David B what are we supposed to follow in your line of logic, Old Testament(Genesis) or New Testament. As I understand it as a new Christian the Old Testament is not used, referenced as it sometimes contradicts the New Testament. Bill is right that many Jews have been disobedient to the Lord and he left them in the wilderness for 40 years. I cannot in good conscience at this point in my faith support Israel due to their atrocities at obtaining the land they know occupy by force, violence, etc. For all those… Read more »
Anthony, You have listed numerous allegations. According to them, would you support Iran’s leader and terrorist organizations against the USA? Or say that morally we are on an equal footing? Have we apologized or made reparations because of slavery? Well, hundreds of thousands of Americans lost their lives over this issue in the Civil War. Billions (if not trillions) have been spent in poverty programs. We paid dearly for the atrocity of slavery. Jews did not live peacefully in Europe or the Middle East in the 1930s and 1940s. Are Israelis perfect? Of course not; we’re not either. But we… Read more »