This article is not for everyone and I am sure many will disagree with my statement. Not everyone is cut out to pursue additional degrees after the Master of Divinity (MDiv) degree but we all need to think beyond the confines of theological education. My question to you is, what skills do you have other than being a pastor to provide for your family? If one is considering pursuing a Doctor of Ministry (DMin) degree, what is your true motivation? Is it the “applause of men” so you can be called “Doctor?”
I am starting my sixth and final semester toward a Master of Business Administration (MBA). I have earned my MDiv with Biblical Languages from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in 2001 and have completed 13 hours toward my DMin at Beeson Divinity School. Since 2001, I have pastored a total of 3 churches. I am pursuing my MBA at Kennesaw State University as a part of the University System of Georgia’s WebMBA program. 100% online degree in 18 months. I have learned a tremendous amount and have studied under some of the sharpest business minds in the state.
I LOVED my MDiv theological training at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and had an outstanding experience learning how to rightly divide the Word of God. I believe it would be wise for a Pastor to consider pursuing an MBA instead of a DMin degree. Listed below are the classes I have taken as a part of the MBA course load.
My class list:
- Human Behavior in Organization
- Managerial Accounting
- Entrepreneurship
- Global & International Business
- Managerial Decision Analysis
- Strategic Marketing
- Managerial Finance
- Management Information System
- Production & operations Management
- Business Strategy
- Business Law
- Financial Accounting
Why I believe pastors should consider pursuing their MBA over their DMin.
- MBA is a more functional degree in leading a church than a DMin—Having to address budgets, buildings, capital campaigns, church plants, marketing of the church, an MBA will be far more practical than taking additional theology courses. It is a sharper tool and provides more diverse equipment for managing a large non-profit. Are you pursuing the DMin simply to be called “Doctor?”
- Education from an MBA will allow you to become more strategic in the organizational structure of a church—learning people is vital in leading a church. Obviously following God’s leading in all things we are to use our brains in strategizing outreach, becoming entrepreneurial in planting churches, and intentional in our missions.
- MBA is more respected and translates better to the congregation—I believe congregational members will better understand their minister’s skill set if they add an MBA than just additional theological graduate hours in pursuing a DMin. If one wants a doctorate, I would argue for a PhD. A PhD is a terminal degree and allows you to teach full-time at a university (a DMin does not). An MBA better equips the minister to better navigate the dangerous “waters” of running a nonprofit organization. We are called as Christians to be “Innocent as doves, wise as serpents.” I love Thom Rainer’s blog post about becoming a “MarketPlace Pastor” and having many more opportunities to share our faith.
- MBA diversifies one’s education—Understanding the business side of running an organization is a blind spot for many pastors with only a theological background. An MBA equips a minister to handle themselves in an expert manner outside of the cloister of our isolated theological silos. None of us are immune to losing our jobs. What skills outside the pastorate do you have to provide for your family?
- Provides an education which can translate well as a bivocational minister—businesses and nonprofits understand MBAs but (from experience) cannot fully grasp or really respect how difficult MDiv degrees (90 credit hours plus) are. As more and more churches are forced to have bivocational pastors (80% of churches is a common stat), an MBA would provide the pastor the necessary tools they need to find a well paying job. I firmly agree with Pastor JD Greear, “I am convinced that the next wave of missions is going to happen on the wings of business.” Thom Rainer has the pulse of the new direction in Bivocational Ministry in his latest blog, Eight Characteristics of the New Bivocational Pastor. I am ready!
In conclusion, pursuing an MBA over a DMin will better sharpen a pastor to be a wise steward of God’s resources, become more skilled in equipping the saints for the work of the Gospel, and provide better strategy for the growth of the church of God.
I agree. I wish that I had gotten an MBA, although my D.Min. probably helped me get some of the positions I obtained. So, better said, I wish that I had pursued both. By the way, you can teach with a D.Min. if that is what you would like to do.
Where and what can you teach with a D.Min?
I think most pastors go for a DMin to be considered for the “First Baptist Church” in towns. Doubt an MBA would help much with that, though having both degrees would be great!
Thanks so much for your responses. You cannot teach full time from a regionally accredited institution (6 SBC seminaries, Liberty, public universities, etc.) with only a DMin.
John,
I know guys who are teaching in seminaries, colleges, and universities with the Doctor of Ministry degree.
Regional accreditation agencies will and do recognize the degree as sufficient in specific disciplines within academia.
So there are some that don’t require a PhD?
MBTS is one. The head of the doctoral program there also worked with accreditation, and called the “must have a ph.d” a bunch of bull.
Said if your dissertation and at least 12 hours of seminars are in the same field, according to standards you are just as much an expert in your field as a ph.d.
Tyler,
Yes. There are many men and women who teach in institutions of higher learning who do so without a PhD. They do so with the full blessings of a regional accrediting agency such as SACS.
Well that’s encouraging!
Yeah, actually you can. Most of the MBTS profs I had only had D.Mins.
I mentioned I would pursue a PhD instead of a DMin if one wanted to teach because it is most respected within academic institutions. I know there are plenty of exceptions but why spend the time, talent, and resources if you are not going to get the terminal degree (PhD)? I worked for Luther Rice (2012-14) a while (15 months) helping them with marketing/student development while they were and still are seeking regional SACS accreditation. Their instructions were all their full-time instructors had to either have their PhD or be in pursuit of one. While I was there, they let some go who did not.
Again, accreditation wise d.min is considered a terminal degree.
Now i agree, a lot of places will see the ph.d as “more respected”, but like I said in another comment: Prof who works with accreditation called bunk the claim you must have a ph.d according to accreditation standards.
That said, some schools won’t hire a d.min as a full prof, but it comes down to really a different reason, it seems.
John Roland,
I have more experience in dealing with an accrediting agency than a person should be “sentenced to” in one lifetime.
I am also familiar with the LR journey toward accreditation. I know that they do not have to “bow” to that demand from the agency from whom they received it although I am certain you are right in your statement that they received that instruction.
In addition, I do not state the things I state in this thread because I do not hold degrees and have a chip on my shoulder because I did not go to seminary as is the case of some who state things similar to what I have in this thread
. I hold a terminal degree from a good, solid, and accredited SBC seminary. I hold a Masters degree from the best SBC seminary and best of any seminary in the world. My undergrad degrees are from a fine state Baptist institution. I have additional studies two other Baptist seminaries and a couple of universities.
Through the years, I have come to the strong opinion that the greatest qualifier for pastoral ministry is a heart turned completely toward Christ, a hunger unquenchable for the Word of God, and a concentration on prayer and love for the flock to which one is assigned by Holy God.
My greatest regret in life is that I did not come to that conclusion earlier in my journey as a minister of Christ and as a servant of Southern Baptists within the several entities to which I have served.
Sounds like you have a far better grip on accreditation then I do from the limited time (only 15 months) I experienced it . Thanks so much for your wise words of advice and wisdom. I sincerely appreciate it
John,
Please understand I am not trying to be “cool” here. My “wisdom” is scarred, bloodied, and shot full of holes. I have played the fool and the stooge far more than I should have. However, I have learned a few things along the way. “Even a blind hog finds a nut once in a while.” And thrust me, for me it has been “rut hog or die” on many occasions. 😉
cb, Amen!
Are a majority adjucts? or most full time profs?
Tyler,
Many are tenured professors. Adjuncts come in all sizes , colors, theological persuasions, and degrees, or the absence thereof.
At MBTS the ones I had were full with the exception of the adjunct Frank Page.
The President of Golden Gate Baptist Seminary holds the Doctor of Ministry degree and not an Ed.D. or PhD. and he is a fine president indeed.
One of our six SBC seminaries is led by a President that has a D. Min. and not a Ph. D.
I believe the Master of Public Administration (MPA) is also an excellent option. I earned an MPA from Troy University with a concentration in Non-profit Management. I too think the courses helped me better understand leading in a church (non-profit). I was able to study human resources, strategic planning, program evaluation, leadership, and budgeting. I utilize what I learned in the MPA program weekly. The MPA is often a better option due to the business courses/experience that many MBA programs require. Unless an individual studied in the field of business or financial management in college they will have a lot of prerequisites before being accepted into an MBA program.
I believe if I ever felt led to become bivocational this degree would help me become competitive in the marketplace. I finished the D. Min. at NOBTS. It added some other tools to my ministry toolbox. But, you are correct — a degree program such as the MPA or MBA does prepare you to be more versatile in leading inside and outside the church.
Also, I loved my time at Beeson Divinity School pursuing my DMin. Fantastic school with an outstanding faculty led by Dr Timothy George.
I really like this article and agree with John’s points. Hardly a month passes without some survey or some piece that points to the deficiency of an MDiv in areas of management, conflict resolution, interpersonal skills. Some grasp of law, accounting, finance, marketing etc. is a necessity.
If only the minister knew his career trajectory early on. With most (80% and upward perhaps) pastors being single staff, average church size guys, it’s tough to see an MBA in the mix.
I wish John well for the future.
[I started, Chris, the MPA program years ago prior to attending seminary. Egad, what a grind. Didn’t take me long to drop that.]
I did not pursue my DMin because I wanted to be called “Doctor” or in order to pastor a First Baptist in a county seat town (haven’t, don’t plan to). I pursued it because I wanted to learn the skills associated with it so I could be a better pastor. And going to a Methodist school for it, we got things like conflict resolution, law, and marketing. Are you suggesting that SBC schools which offer a D.Min. don’t offer these? If not, they should.
John
That having been said, if I had the business acumen to pursue an MBA, I would have liked to, and have no problem with ministers who do. It is strictly a matter of giftedness, opportunity, and time.
John
“Having to address budgets, buildings, capital campaigns, church plants, marketing of the church, an MBA will be far more practical than taking additional theology courses. It is a sharper tool and provides more diverse equipment for managing a large non-profit.” If one’s purpose is to lead a large non-profit (such as 501c3 church which I would imagine you are talking about) – if this is truly the purpose of the Kingdom, then go on right ahead. If a person purposes in their heart a desire to be the CEO of a multi-million dollar non-profit business, then more power to them. The Church of the Living God has been doing its business here and around for 2,000 years without all the clutter of being a “business” save the business of sharing the Good News and equipping disciples to be about the work of making more disciples and the mission of planting local churches for His glory. Our task has never been to be “large” but faithful for it is God who increases His church. He has sent servants who are gifted in ministry in all sorts of callings for His Body to be His hands and feet in the world. So as far as I am concerned, I would prefer my Pastor to be passionate and knowledgeable in the Word, confirmed in doctrine and secure in his calling to shepherd a flock – one who can share the Word with authority and passion by teaching and preaching = and delegating to others to serve tables and keep the books as was the custom of the first apostles of the church.
Rob
I don’t know if an MBA is appropriate degree for those who already have a MDiv or not.
I will, say however, that for those who are trustees of our entities, such as the IMB or the seminaries, MBA training would be very useful. Most people running the SBC entities — both in administration and the trustees — have graduate level degrees from seminaries but they don’t have much real world experience running multimillion organizations. So an MBA would at least give trustees some idea of management, finance, accounting, decision science, marketing, and business law which applies to businesses of all types.
The IMB trustees should have had maybe 30 MBAs instead of virtually all pastors with seminary degrees. This might be one step in avoiding fiascos such as running up unbalanced budgets to the tune of 210 million dollars over the past decade or so.
I think there are a number of various types of “giftedness” that people have which can be used in good measure to manage the SBC entities.
In my case, I have a BSEE, MBA, and just enough seminary training to be dangerous. My seminary training includes about 1/2 of an MDiv — and about 1/2 of that 1/2 was taken for credit and the other 1/2 I just audited. I did all the reading and attended all the classes and seminars but I didn’t write the papers or take the tests. The 1/2 I didn’t take at all was Greek and Hebrew. But I did take all the Biblical Literature stuff including classes that drilled down of Pauline Letters, Daniel / Revelation, etc. I think this cross training is excellent for Christians whether a layman like myself or you are in the ministry. Most of my seminary profs were Dallas Grads. I learned a ton from them.
I really admire all you guys who took Greek and Hebrew and wrote those theology papers. Yikes! However, I think the SBC would be better off if more of the trustees running the show for the SBC you instead did Harvard Business School cases in management and finance and also took some stuff on decision science and statistics.
One positive step: I decree that the Chairman of the BoT of the IMB should have an MBA. If he also has an MDiv, DMin, PhD in Theology, etc. so much the better. He should already have demonstrated ability of running a multimillion operation with a payroll of at least 1000 people before any one turns him loose as a trustee chairman.
Roger Simpson OKC
Bingo on this Roger. Many trustee boards are weaker for being packed with pastors and pastor’s wives rather than savvy laypeople.
William Thornton,
I will use your word “savvy” to present just a little twist on your comment.
Our boards are weaker for being packed with “un-savvy” pastors and pastor’s wives and “un-savvy” lay people who take their arching orders from a pastor who s fulfilling his own agenda by proxy through an un-savvy layperson.
Our boards would be stronger if filled with savvy, godly, and honest, pastors, and laypeople who have no agenda other than representing the Southern Baptists who elected them as guardians and watchmen to our entities.
Completely agree.
CB’s “iceberg” comment.
Lot’s to see on top, but there’s a lot more under the water line on this one!
Right, sir?
CB’s “iceberg” comment.
Lots to see on top, but there’s a lot more under the water line on this one!
Right, sir?
Dave Miller,
Yes. Yes, there is. yet, please allow me to state that it is my opinion that our “trustee system” is a splendid system for a representative governance of our entities.
However, it is highly needful for our trustees to be, primarily and absolutely, strong followers of the Christ and secondly to be capable Southern Baptist statesmen.
The problem with pastors sticking to preaching and delegating all the admin stuff is that they are responsible for it all and if the ordained and called overseer lacks the knowledge, experience, and capacity to handle what churches of any size have – budgets, finance, planning, managing, etc. – they will oversee failure. MDiv holders frequently complain about lack of preparedness to actually pastor the modern American church.
They are not called to pastor “the modern American church.” They are called to Pastor God’s church with Jesus as the head of the Church. My soul I think a lot of people today have forgotten about that part of the church = that of all institutions in the world God has given His imprint and then guides the local church when they yield themselves to Him. “Unless the Lord builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the Lord guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.”
I am not naive to think that all will be roses and cream. We are sinners one and all. We do need to be prepared to do the task. It would be helpful to know a few things about planning and managing and finance. Somewhere somehow the Pastor is in the position to have to TRUST the people of whom God has lead to be shepherded by Him to do the work. That includes people who are trained in business and finance in order to take the load off the Pastor in order for Him to do the work of ministry. Otherwise he is just a power and control freak. And who really likes those as a Shepherd of God’s flock?
Rob
Thanks Rob, I really loved that!
Rob Ayers,
You have presented the Gold Standard in the following statement:
“So as far as I am concerned, I would prefer my Pastor to be passionate and knowledgeable in the Word, confirmed in doctrine and secure in his calling to shepherd a flock – one who can share the Word with authority and passion by teaching and preaching = and delegating to others to serve tables and keep the books as was the custom of the first apostles of the church.”
I’m considering a masters in public administration with a non profits for many of the reasons mentioned in this thread.
Also, Roger – your comments about recruiting more trustees who have degrees and training in business instead of simply people was various theology/seminary degrees – might that also help with other issues that we’ve discussed on this forum – I.e. the “boys clubs” that’s so pervasive in the southern baptist convention entity trustee boards. You know seminary grads choosing buddies who went to the same seminary and the like.
*a non profit concentration…
I teach at a small Baptist “professional college” where we turn out nurses and allied health professionals. I have been in the classroom for 18 years and came into the ministry late. 4 of my 5 degrees are theological degrees. Each from a different schools, and each a different degree. Two graduate degrees from other denominations. I hold the DMin from the University of the South at Sewanee (Tn.). I also hold the “union card” MDiv from Southern since Al Mohler was elected president. So I consider myself to have some level of knowledge and experience.
I do agree with the post to a point. I, on the other hand, tell young men who think about the ministry to go and get their first degree that “will help them make a living.”–like a teachers degree or IT or some such. Then they can have a way to take care of their family and make a decent living if they are to start a church or are turned out of the church they pastor.
I do agree that the MBA has merits and should be considered. I just wish I had thought about it myself.
If we are a dwindling denomination, there cannot be places of service for all of the graduates we are putting out. And all will not want to start churches. Just my two cents worth.
rd
None of those expensive degrees are necessary to pastor a church. Further, everyone can talk about how noble their intentions were, but let’s be honest, degrees are credentials and that’s about it. Anything that you learn in seminary or university is available to all of us now thanks to the internet. I have heard MDIV and DMin and Phd guys preach and by in large they aren’t any more skilled than the rest of us.
As far as the administrative and leadership side of pastoring is concerned, all that training is available as well without paying thousands of dollars to get another degree.
Here Here.
Rob
Yep and Double Yep
Yes, I agree there is an over abundance of information now available for us all on the internet. All we learned in seminary (commentaries, Biblical Languages, Biblical history, etc.) is in the hands of our congregations as well. What pastors and laypersons need is someone with the discipline to “study to approve themselves unto God.” I think there is something to be said for setting oneself aside (Paul in Tarsus for 8+ years), dedicating the time and attention to the Lord, being held accountable by grades and professors, seeking to attain a clear measurable objective drawing one closer to becoming a more equipped servant of God. The point of my post is what is the most effective equipping as a called minister of Christ for my time, talent, and treasure?
Yes John. The question then becomes “in what manner or best way then to “study” and then “what to study” to best serve them. You started this post with a title that seemed to infer that going (in your example) a D.Min. was a choice best suited for those who sought accolades. Since my education was sought for the only purpose of being equipped for my task at hand, I found this a bit offensive to say the least. My argument still remains: the Pastor whose task is ministry and preaching equips his flock to do the work of ministry that their equipping and calling leads them. This has served the Church of God well way before non profits and strategic planning. It is the tried and true method. Why should it be abandoned?
Rob
Like you Rob, I find John Wylie’s comments somewhat offensive. If that was the reason he pursued a D.Min. (if indeed he did), or if he knows someone who did, so be it; however, that does not mean that all of us did it for that reason. And while a lot of information is available on the internet, (1) it is not all of equal value, (2) sorting through it and determining what is of value and what is not is a very time-consuming task, and (3) learning is, in my opinion, less about gaining information and more about learning how to process and apply information, which requires human interaction. I have heard church members–and on boards like this, pastors–who seemed to think that the purpose of seminary is to acquire a lifetime supply of sermons. Few things could be farther from the truth; an effective sermon requires that one know how to interpret the Biblical material, AND interact with the people to understand how that material needs to be applied in their lives. THAT is what seminaries teach, and at the D.Min. level the material is more specialized, more detailed in ways that seminaries lack the time to teach. At least that’s my experience and my 2 cents worth.
John
John Fariss is an old Birmingham cop. He has an ability to search out “the facts Ma’am, just the facts.”
He has found them here:
“. . . an effective sermon requires that one know how to interpret the Biblical material, AND interact with the people to understand how that material needs to be applied in their lives.”
“
If I offended you John Fariss I certainly apologize. It was not my intention. But, if you read Rob’s comment he wasn’t expressing offense at my comment. In fact, he expressed agreement with it above.
John Farris,
I was referring to John Roland, the writer of this OP. I know things are difficult with the amount of guys named “John” in this thread. I get that = I have three deacons named “John” = and when they all show up to take up the offering, or share at the Lord’s table, it can get a little dicey :-).
Rob
My bad, Rob & John W. However, what I said still goes. And thanks, C.B.
John
Or just get a plurality of elders….I kid I kid!…kinda 😉
Tyler,
What if pastors were obedient to the mandates of Scripture such as is revealed in Eph. 4: 11-16 and discipled the flock in such a way as would build up the body of Christ to do the work of the Kingdom?
In so doing, would not our churches have godly laypeople from a great number of skills from their educational backgrounds who could apply their learned skills in harmony with their spiritual gifts and continue to build the body of Christ?
Would that not be the better way?
Like I said, I was just poking fun. I think a plurality of elders is necessary for the well being of the pastor and because I think Scripture calls for it, but I absolutely think our laypeople should apply their learning skills to build up the body!
It doesn’t have to be one or the other 🙂
Tyler,
Written communication is always lacking in comparison to being face-to-face. So, let me continue my thoughts you spurred with your comment.
First, my comment was not directed to the presence of absence of a plurality of elders as a form of church governance in a local church.
My primary point is that if pastors do the work for which we are called, we will build a flock of mature believers in the church. In doing so, we will be able to utilize the skills of well qualified people to multiply our ministry.
“My primary point is that if pastors do the work for which we are called, we will build a flock of mature believers in the church. In doing so, we will be able to utilize the skills of well qualified people to multiply our ministry.”
Amen. I would love to see this in all of our churches.
First, I agree. The reason is because of the way we typically structure our churches. Most pastors also serve as administrative heads. I don’t think that’s necessarily warranted by Scripture, but it’s certainly well within the pale of what’s allowed. It’s certainly church life as we have it today.
That said, if we have administrative expectations for our pastors, it would stand to reason that administrative skills should be included in a normal seminary course load. You can’t minister to a church that you have run into the ground administratively.
My church is large enough to have multiple pastors and one of them serves as the minister of administration. This frees up the rest to actually focus on the ministry of the Word. Most churches obviously don’t have this luxury. If it’s possible, it helps to relieve your pastors of the burden of administration, unless administration is primarily why he is a pastor.
Oddly, this whole matter does bring up a point of concern. We should be good stewards. However, many church members view administrative skills more highly than they view ministerial skills. They don’t care how much you know until they know if you will spend the money the way they want it spent. Even then many of them don’t really care how much you know. Just don’t tick anyone off with hard teaching or the ‘wrong’ kind of music.
It’s illuminating to hear from knowledgable people, particularly that old warhorse CB. I’m back with John and others who see a benefit to having marketable skills and degrees aside from theology and ministry. We are a declining denomination. We can’t all be potential mega pastors and profs and find paying jobs.
Both can be valuable degrees, no doubt. But I have seen all too often those in ministry that are very Godly and knowledgeable in scriptures — who are not well-rounded and are ill-equipped. For many, a MBA would be more beneficial.
I believe God has a place for all types of pastors.
Those with a formal education.
Those without a formal education.
Those who know Greek.
Those who barely know English.
Those who have been to seminary.
Those who have not been to seminary.
Those who have a secular education.
Those who have a religious education.
As long as he is a God called pastor who believes the Word of God, loves the lost, and meets the qualifications for pastor, God bless him.
With your unique education, personality, and background, you can reach someone for Jesus Christ that another pastor cannot reach.
One thing I have learned, is that whatever the pastor has studied and excels in, it seems that can most always be useful in his ministry.
And that can be as diverse as a MBA, to being good with a chainsaw or at working cows.
David R. Brumbelow
The primary issue is not one of Degrees, stuff hanging on the wall. It is COMPETENCE. Research has shown that Leadership Incompetence is a major contributing factor in the decline of the church.
I work with churches seeking a Lead Pastor. A church must know with a high degree of accuracy who they are, where they are, and what they want to accomplish going forward in ministry. A man may have multiple degrees in numerous disciplines but if he lacks COMPETENCE, ministry suffers.
Pastoral Leadership is not primarily about educational accomplishment, degrees, but COMPETENCE. Leadership is about MODELING the path that you want others to follow. Genuine Leaders have people that are following because their Leadership is shaped by sound exegesis and a compelling fragrance of Jesus Christ. The Leader radiates the character and conduct of Christ.
Having stated these things, achieving such status usually requires some level of formal educational pursuit.
Tom Fillinger
803 413 3509
Well stated, Tom Fillinger.
In an effort for clarity:
Blogging has been an excellent source of learning and sharing through the years for me. However, I see blogging to have one major,inherent deficit:
We are communicating by the medium of writing our thoughts and are limited to the reception of others who read what we write alone.
We are not able to have face-to-face exchange which gives greater ability to convey in more than one medium what our thoughts and opinions on a given subject may be.
Therefore, in hope of clarity let me state:
I think there is merit in John Roland’s post. Some guys would greatly benefit in their ministries by having a MBA degree.
I also think there is merit in what Rob Ayers, John Fariss, and William Thornton have stated as do I see truth in the statements of John Wylie and even though I think my friend, David R. Brumbelow, may now consider me as anathema, I do greatly find merit in his most recent comment in this thread.
I think that when the smoke clears every person on this thread would agree that the most important thing for a pastor is faithfulness to his calling from Jesus to shepherd the flock to which God has assigned him and we need all the help we can get to serve Jesus and the flock well within the culture we now live. —
— The Academy is a splendid source to give the pastor the tools he needs to serve well the Master who has called him to his task.
CB, Well said, sir. Very well said, indeed.
I do wonder though – why would anyone ever consider you anathema!?
He is an SEC guy…
😉
Well, we can all pray that perhaps one day he will set aside his besetting sin and the snare which so easily entraps him…..
Yes. The Big XII is always open to repentant heathens!
Thank you CB for your kind words. I really need that affirmation right now. My anger and my rudeness I think has cost me a lot of credibility on this blog and I so much want to get that back. I can completely understand why John Fariss would take my comment offensively based on the tenor of my comments over the past couple of months.
John Wylie,
I think you are a good guy. I have been reading your comments since I first ran into you on Wade Burleson’s blog. That’s been a while. You are a passionate guy. We passionate guys sometimes come off offensively to a degree far beyond who we actually are in “person.”
Yet, and to my personal shame, there have been times when I have, with willful intent, made offensive remarks to people in blog threads because I pridefully believed I knew their motives and intentions. I was wrong to do that. I thank God for His mercy and grace for His rebel children like me.
John W. and CB….I have no idea what y’all are talking about.
I am so glad I NEVER come across harshly or overly passionate. It must be hard on you guys.
😉
Consider it forgotten. Keeping you in my prayers.
John
Hey, C. B. Scott,
I do not now consider you any more anathema than I have in years.
If there is good reason for me to consider you so, please let me know.
I too find merit in most all the comments here.
I don’t think a doctor’s degree is essential for a pastor, but I have great respect for those who do have earned doctor’s degrees, whether D.Min. or Ph.D.
I especially respect those preachers with doctor’s degrees who don’t act like they have a doctor’s degree, and preach the truths of God Word so we all can understand.
On the other hand, you can have three Ph.Ds (no one in particular in mind here, just an example) and not be able to preach your way out of a wet paper bag.
Also, I’ve met John Wylie and consider him a very capable pastor.
C. B. is right that the written word often comes across much sharper than the personal, face to face, spoken word. Writing can be very easily misunderstood.
David R. Brumbelow
David, I cannot tell you how much that means to me coming from you. It was my honor to meet you, and then later your brother, and your mother before she passed. Pretty gracious people.
I am very grateful for all of the discussion about my post today. Thankful for Dave allowing my blog post to be released into the “wild.” I have not meant to offend any one but rather cause people to think. The need for more and more bivocational pastors creates the need for pastors to have more flexibility and more tools. As one is considering further graduate education, we need to closely examine our motives (thus the statement “So you just want to be called Doctor”) before you pour a lot more time, talent, and resources for more education (as I have had to do). Always put Christ first and foremost. Be a person of integrity with a passion for excellence in all things. I have learned a great deal from your comments today. Hope to one day meet you. If you are ever passing through Newnan, GA (25 miles south of the ATL airport) let me know. I would love to get a cup of coffee.
John we used to live in Coweta Co. We moved about 18 months ago to Gwinnett Co. I might take you up on the coffee offer…
I have a MA from SBTS. I began the MDIV program, but switched after about 2 years because I wanted to be done sooner, specifically before our first son was born.
I have no regrets, and though I am now happily a “staff-pastor” (non-senior/lead pastor) in my 30’s…. even if I were to feel called to be a senior pastor in my 40’s or 50’s, I don’t really know what getting an MDiv would gain me, other than more letters. It would take a lot to convince me to dovote that kind of time and money to any additional degrees in the theological field.
Now, if circumstances force me into bi-vocation, I could see getting the training I need to provide for my family, such that an MBA, or an Electrician’s license might be in order… 🙂
Andy Williams,
You could always take up fur trapping in the Rockies if you don’t want to do the MBA or become a Journeyman Electrician.
You could call yourself the Fur Trapping-Fisher of Men of the Great Rocky Mountains.
For some reason that makes me think of “The Yodeling Veterinarian of the Alps”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUkpE16b56g
I have been a fur trapper. I wouldn’t want to live by it.
Andy,
Just in case…I would suggest that you climb every mountain, till you find your dream….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxzaSAzW6Y8&feature=youtu.be
(couldn’t resist.) 😉
Excellent voice. This is certainly the “path” to success.
Well, somebody has to be the semi-contrarian voice, and I don’t know any of you who are any better at contrarianism than I.
I agree that there has always been and always will be a profound need for bivocational ministry. I affirm the strategic value of equipping oneself to be able to earn a living outside the work of the gospel as a way to qualify oneself for bivocational ministry should the need to do so arise. Furthermore, I think there is an added benefit to being qualified to do something other than preach: Someday you may disqualify yourself for ministry, and I don’t want you to force your way along in continued ministry after you are disqualified just because you don’t know what else you could do.
And yet, I firmly believe that everything you need to know for leading a church—and I’m not being hyperbolic here…I think every last thing up to 100% of what you need to know for leading a church—all of it is contained in the Bible. You don’t need an MBA. I don’t think it will hurt you for ministry insofar as you know for certain that you don’t need it for ministry at all.
I submit to you that there are three categories of knowledge related to this question:
1. Things an MBA will teach you that are also taught in the Bible. You could learn these things by earning an MBA. You could learn them equally well by earning an MDiv or a PhD in a field of biblical study that addresses the items that you are learning.
2. Things an MBA will teach you that are not taught in the Bible. These things, if applied to church work, will generally take you away from a biblical ecclesiology and lead you to a secular model of the church.
3. Things the Bible will teach you that are not taught in MBA studies. For example, it’s unlikely that you will learn in MBA classes that the greatest person among you must become the slave of all, or that you will only find your life by losing it, or a thousand other things that are central to biblical truth. An MBA teaches leadership; the Bible teaches self-sacrificial shepherding. Yes, an MBA will teach you about “running an organization.” And you’ll need to go to MBA studies to learn that, for there’s precious little of that in the New Testament. In those pages you will learn about serving and following rather than managing and leading. But it is in that pathway of serving and following that you will find the Holy Spirit.
So, by all means, go get an MBA. But the moment that you think to yourself, “I’m so glad I got this secular business degree rather than additional Bible study! This extra-biblical material is the key secret I needed to know in order to succeed in leading a church!”—mark that moment down. That’s the precise moment in time when you slipped over to the dark side.
Bart,
Thanks so much for your reply. Glad you made it home safe and sound. I always enjoy your posts and I am grateful for all you do for God’s Kingdom.
Yes, Jesus laid out the ultimate guide to leadership in dying to self and in following His example of humility and following in obedience first mentality. I love studying God’s Word and it is a joy to learn all I can from scholars and teachers. God has given me interests which lie in business and has given me the ability to learn organizational, marketing, management, entrepreneurship in my MBA studies. It is just an interest to me which I believe is wise to have sharpened. I clearly recognize my MBA studies are not “the key secret” to leading church life. As I hope and pray pastors listening to convention/church leadership gurus don’t believe John Maxwell or Zig Ziglar or Jim Collins or Peter Drucker are not the “key secret” to leadership in the church either. How often have we heard those names mentioned from church leadership gurus?
I believe as you said, “affirm the strategic value of equipping oneself to be able to earn a living outside the work of the gospel.” I am firmly convinced we will see more and more of the need of it and there will be fewer and fewer churches who will be able to afford full-time pastors much less, full-time staff. Not just preparing for one to be disqualified but in case your family demands you step away from the pastorate due to the illness of your wife or children. No one should ever boast about how they could never lose their position. Family situation quickly arises, church conflict erupts, the local economy crumbles, etc. . . . you never know.
As we have seen over the years in SBC life, there have been many questionable financial decisions that those with a bit more business training may have helped. Decisions such as the IMB being led $200M in debt or watching my local state Baptist convention go deep in debt to build an enormous palatial state convention building for admin staff which sits more than 1/2 empty and they cannot sell. Churches deciding to build monuments to pastors and go deep in debt to build enormous sanctuaries is another example. From an operations standpoint, what has been the status quo in SBC life must change. Our current convention model of operations (top down leadership with decisions trickling down from national to state to association) is dead or soon will be. Is the answer an MBA? Certainly not but it could not hurt. An MBA is definitely not the answer for everybody but I am simply recommending pastors give it (or an MPA or a teaching certificate . . .) a consideration before they stack all of their education in the same theological “basket.” I definitely do not see it as the “dark side.”
“. . .watching my local state Baptist convention go deep in debt to build an enormous palatial state convention building for admin staff which sits more than 1/2 empty and they cannot sell.”
John,
Do you serve in the state of Georgia?
It’s a highly desirable property if they’re serious about selling.
Thanks for the reply, John. The “dark side,” as I defined it, comes not from knowing what an MBA will teach you but from thinking such things to be overly important.
Let’s take a good look at the examples you have given.
1. Let’s look hard at the IMB’s financial crisis. Now, you don’t have to have an MBA to know that spending more money than you are taking in is a generally bad and unsustainable course of action to take. Did the IMB do that because they lacked managerial training? Does the IMB situation serve as good evidence for the virtue of an MBA?
Actually, I think it serves as pretty good evidence for the value of theological training. Our entities don’t generally hire preachers for their business offices. They tend to hire people with MBAs, and have done so for as long as you and I have been alive. So, whatever we have going on at state conventions or national entities is unfolding under the watchful eyes of people with MBAs.
Why did the IMB do what they did? There’s good reason to suspect that they did so because of bad theology. More specifically, there’s reason to suspect that they did so because of bad eschatology (you know, the branch of theology that people always cite when they’re looking for aspects of theology that aren’t important…”let’s not argue over little things like eschatology”). Adopt a bad eschatology, and you’ll start doing things that you know are unsustainable because you’re convinced that you won’t have to sustain them for very long.
So, what tripped up all of the MBAs at the IMB? It is at least plausible (and perhaps likely) that a lack of better theological formation was the culprit.
2. What about over-investment into a building, as you have suggested that your state convention and numerous churches have done? With regard to the state convention, I can only stress again that every old-line state convention not only is employing on-staff MBA-type people but also is retaining the services of accountants, consultants, etc. At the local church level, I’ve never served at any church in my 20+ years of pastoral ministry that didn’t have in its lay leadership CPAs, entrepreneurs, people with MBAs, and the like. It’s my impression that this is largely true of the broad swath of churches in our convention. The pastor who obtains an MBA becomes the peer of the church member with an MBA as it pertains to business knowledge; he has merely duplicated knowledge that is already within his congregation, probably many times over. Yet all of these lay people and oversight structures are approving of these projects of which you disapprove. If the MBA did not inoculate them against these decisions with which you disagree, why would it have inoculated their pastors? It is difficult to imagine a good reason.
Please understand, I’m not arguing for the necessity of a DMin or a PhD. Far from it. Rather, I’m arguing that acquaintance with scripture and the leadership of the Holy Spirit are the only things that any pastor or church needs. A DMin or PhD from some seminaries or other institutions will take you away from the Bible and away from the Holy Spirit. Such degrees are tools of Satan. No MBA will involve telling you that the Bible is erroneous (I can’t imagine that the subject matter of the Bible arises very often in MBA classes), and thus in at least this way every MBA is far superior to some theological PhDs. But if theological training will give you further light in understanding the Bible and if it will form you spiritually such that at commencement you are walking more closely with the Holy Spirit than you were at orientation, then such theological training—as much of it as you can afford to acquire—will be of great, irreplaceable value to you.
“Our entities don’t generally hire preachers for their business offices. They tend to hire people with MBAs, and have done so for as long as you and I have been alive. So, whatever we have going on at state conventions or national entities is unfolding under the watchful eyes of people with MBAs.”
The above statement is and always has been true.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Our entities are “tools” by which Southern Baptists do Kingdom work. The stewardship of caring for, guarding, cleaning, and replacing when broken of these tools has been appointed to elected representatives of the cooperating churches who constitute the SBC. We call those elected representatives trustees.
In my personal opinion, the trustee system of the SBC is an excellent methodology of governance of a cooperative body such as is the SBC.
It is also my opinion that the success or failure of any Southern Baptist entity (other than a local church) is dependent upon how good or how bad the collective body of trustees serving as guardians of any Southern Baptist institution, board, or agency does its job.
Short version: Our “tools” are as good or as bad as the trustees elected to take care of them.
Bart,
I honestly agree completely with all of what you wrote. I am sure there have been plenty of MBAs & CPA’s who have reviewed all of the financials on the numerous over-eager building programs. It does sound like bad theology and misinterpreted eschatology is responsible for the IBM $200M deficits. It does still bother me though it was pastors (on boards, leading the charge as Sr Pastor, etc) with a huge bundle of only theological education making all of the main calls on those decisions.
I wish in my case I would have no need for an MBA but found it to be a necessary tool. I was a full time pastor 10 years ago but due to some serious family concerns, I chose to resign (my decision) and go back to secular work. I was unprepared having focused on ministry and my MDiv for the 10 prior years. It is a difficult road. I am bivocational. I see now the great need for bivocational ministers with flexibility, a vision with an understanding of to grasp all of the issues, and the freedom to address very hard choices. The need for more bivocational pastors will only increase. My heart is to have as many tools as possible. I should have changed the title of the blog post. Wanted people to pause before pursuing the DMin (truly know whether it is really worth it?), but did not mean to disrespect it. My desire was to spark conversation. My personal experience in the past had been with a few very arrogant older pastors who thumbed their nose at me and their congregations because of having the title “doctor.” Later it was determined their doctorates were either honorary or from a sham unaccredited school. It has clouded my view.
Thanks for your wisdom and perspective Bart. I appreciate it. I have learned a great deal from you and so many others. Great experience.
“My personal experience in the past had been with a few very arrogant older pastors who thumbed their nose at me and their congregations because of having the title “doctor.” Later it was determined their doctorates were either honorary or from a sham unaccredited school.”
John Roland,
Sadly, this has become a problem among Southern Baptists. Some guys take “shortcuts” and “buy” a degree simply for the title or they take no shortcut at all. They just lie on their resumes about their credentials.
I’m not offended by your post, John. I only bother to comment on posts that interest me. This one did. You offered an opinion, and as I acknowledged in my first post, I think it has some helpful aspects to it. In particular, the need for bivocational ministry (and your own story illustrates this so well) suggests the advantage of some training in other fields.
And certainly there is a danger that arrogance poses to us all. Thanks for the reminder of that.
“Rather, I’m arguing that acquaintance with scripture and the leadership of the Holy Spirit are the only things that any pastor or church needs.”
Bart Barber,
When the smoke clears, your statement above will always be right as the rain. Always and anywhere.
Alternative title: “So you just want to be called an executive”
That’s at the heart of it, Adam. Unfortunately, executive administration is what most churches expect from their pastors, on top of actually pastoring. If you want to be a pastor in America, indeed in most places in the world, doing the work of an administrator is typically a higher priority placed on you than doing the work of an evangelist (2 Tim 4:5).
Pray tell where else in the world that administration in the church has a higher priority than evangelism? Pray tell how it could EVER be a higher priority in the American church?
Rob
To be sure, most conservative Baptists acknowledge the importance of doing evangelism. Many have not thought about what is more important, however.
Other denominations, as well as liberal Baptists, have different priorities. Many don’t think Christians should “proselytize” (their way of demeaning evangelism). Others don’t know the difference between evangelism and social ministry. To them, things like feeding the poor IS evangelism and therefore doing evangelism IS administrating resources to feed the poor.
But even among conservative Baptists, many conceive that pastors are supposed to preach on Sundays and Wednesdays, baptize people, visit them when they are in the hospital, perform weddings and funerals, and make sure the money is spent they way they want it spent. If the pastor never pushes the church to engage unbelievers with the Gospel or be involved in missions, or does these things himself, they wouldn’t think he wasn’t doing his job. But he better not let the budget slide. While they wouldn’t say it, it would appear that administration is more important to them than actual evangelism.
You did not answer the question.
Rob
Sorry. I thought I did. Perhaps you can re-phrase the question so I can understand it better.
I believe the gist of Jim’s point is: It SHOUDLN’T be, but sometimes in reality, it IS.
Andy, that’s pretty much it. That’s why it’s something that men training for pastoral ministry need to be prepared for.
I agree with Jim Pemberton, evangelism should be more important than administration but in reality, sometimes administration put head of evangelism. I have great respect for SBC voices blog and the pastors on it. Grateful for your passion for the Gospel, for preaching the Word week in and week out, in and out of season, visiting the sick, caring the poor, etc. Nothing is better than dedicating your life to the study of God’s Word. Thanks for reading my blog post. I have not meant to offend anyone or cause any divisions. I sincerely apologize to those I have.
I count John a friend and can say he has been giving this question a great deal of thought over the last few years and arrives at his views on this having been in a DMin program and nearing the end of a MBA. He and I have discussed this recently and nearly two years ago so this is a topic he has weighed for a while now and I am grateful for his willingness to put this out in the “wild” and for Dave permitting the post.
What skills best suit leaders in the 21st century church is something we need to be considering…a lot more than we do anyway! The two degrees (MBA vs. DMin) are very different both in their intended outcomes and pedagogical design. In my opinion, comparing the degree programs themselves is not as effective as individual ministers considering their calling and how they should best be equipped to serve where God has called them.
Here are a few thoughts in no particular order:
1) The current structure of the MDiv is the larger problem. MBTS has reworked their program resulting with an 81 hour MDiv. There is ONE church administration class. One…that’s it and in my view that’s a problem! At SBTS, you have 90 hours and IF a student chooses the leadership concentration, it adds a few classes that are in line with the MBA curriculum. The MDiv will remain “the” degree for ministry preparation in our seminaries for years to come which isn’t a problem but it is long since time to retool these programs to better prepare ministers for the reality of leading a church in the 21st century.
2) You mention managing a large nonprofit. Many large churches today have executive pastors with business backgrounds (often having earned a MBA) leading the administrative functions of the church freeing the senior pastor up for pastoral counseling and preaching the word.
3) I personally have never encountered anyone who thought the MBA was more highly respected than the DMin though I have met several who do not understand the respective programs, the coursework involved in both, and the pedagogical objectives of each. Only on two occasions have I had had an opportunity to explain the differences in the programs.
4) You ask what other skills a minister has to feed their family if they lose their job. Sadly, this happens too often in churches and that is a problem. However, the same question can be asked of any professional who has very narrow, specific education for their chosen vocation. I have never heard anyone pose such a question to a particle physicist or an anthropologist or a psychologist. Now, deciding to leave vocational ministry is another topic entirely but anyone with specific education/training desiring to transition into a different field will face the prospect of either effectively communicating how their existing skills transfer or seek additional education/training in the new field. I come to ministry a little later in life after having earned a BS in Business Management and MBA Finance. Since being called, I have earned a Master of Religious Education and Doctor of Education in preparation for this transition.
Now this may be a little delicate but you went there so here goes: I am sure there are a few men out there who pursue the DMin with being called doctor as part of their motivation. There is also the reality that there are some DMin programs that are of questionable quality. A rigorous DMin program sharpens the minister and should benefit his practice of ministry in the local church. If the reason a minister is seeking a DMin is to be called “doctor” is part of his consideration (maybe I should go a little further and say sole reason or maybe among the top 5 reasons) then perhaps the minister should reconsider. That’s not much a reason in my view.
Which program is better: the MBA or the DMin? My answer today remains the same that it was when John and I first began this discussion: put simply, it depends on the individual. The issues we see today could be lessened if the schools offering the MDiv placed a greater emphasis on administrative training alongside the theological training they already do so well.
I’ve enjoyed reading through the discussion. My formal educational background includes 2 years of Bible College, an undergraduate business degree, and an MBA. Been in ministry employment in business/operations management for close to 30 yrs.
I’ve seen 4 senior pastors leave 2 different churches (approx 300 members each) with an average tenure of 2-3 years. One had an MDiv, one a PhD, and two had DMins. Two had degrees from an SBC seminary. In all cases their theology was right on, and I wouldn’t fault their ecclesiology. But none of them were skilled in managing people or perceptions, and in my opinion that’s what led to their departure. I suspect some organizational management skills might have prolonged their tenure.