In America, brand perception is the reality. This is bad news for Southern Baptists, if a recent straw poll by LifeWay’s Thom Rainer is correct.
Last week, he sent out requests on his @ThomRainer twitter page with this simple question:
What do you think when you hear ‘Southern Baptist’?
Despite the informal approach, this may be a very useful piece of research. Every major business in America monitors their brand image on social media sites like Twitter. It has become an effective way to get feedback about your product and position in the marketplace.
None of this is lost on a sharp guy like Thom Rainer. His little Twitter poll speaks volumes. It shows us what people hear when we say Southern Baptist. The replies tell a story. Rainer writes:
Though I must be cautious in stating percentages, lest they be perceived as statistically accurate, the results were fascinating, if not a bit troubling. About 60% of the respondents gave a negative association. Another 30% were positive, and 10% were neutral or unclear.
He went on to list all the responses. Keep reading for the link. Here they are as a Wordle, click for full size.
Why does this matter? Bottom line, Twitter users are influencers. They are tech savvy, well education, and super connected. Social media has great power to reflect and move public opinion.
We could argue about these results. Is this a communication failure or a product defect? But that’s not the real story here.
We could rekindle the debate about our denomination name. Is it time to ditch the old Southern Baptist label? But that is not the real story here.
This is a chance to see ourselves through the eyes of others. At least in some measure, we are giving Jesus a bad name. It’s time for some healthy humiliation and repentance.
Read the full story here on Sam Rainer’s blog or share your thought below.
We did a formal, scientific poll in Kentucky and found a much more positive response to a similar question about “Kentucky Baptist.” I cannot remember the percentage, but I believe the positives were in the high 80s.
You know, you’re starting to risk being a “bad” blog, Tony. You really should post more choir hip hop.
“tech savior, well education” ?
I would argue that the majority of people following Thom Rainer are Southern Baptists. This does not describe how others see us, but how a portion of our convention sees ourselves.
I believe that Southern Baptists are very comfortable criticizing the others at the table. It reminds me of polls in which 90% of respondents claim that others are racist but only 3% claim they themselves are racist.
Southern Baptists are fundamentalist legalists….except for me of course, I am driven by grace and purity.
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Tim – tech savior should be tech savvy. Thanks.
{No jokes about my idols please}
Here in the far north, it probably took a good 30 years just to detach the word “cult” from the image of the SBC. Sometimes, I still think the Lutheran ministers in town wonder about me. A lot of us in the younger generation of ministers are pushing against the old perceptions of legalism to be sure, but is that still our biggest problem? And changing the name won’t do anything. A few years back Amway decided to “change their name” to Quixtar and launch an online aspect to the company. The only difference between the two is that it… Read more »
What do you expect. The SBC has an actual, official resolution prohibiting alcohol-use, effectively banning Jesus from attending an SBC seminary for ordination.
So, yeah, “legalistic” is pretty accurate.
I concur with Tim. I would think the majority of responders would be Southern Baptists if they “follow” Thom–so this is more of a “what do we think others see us as”. There is merit to that information as well.
However, It would be interesting to get the results from running the poll on several secular websites.
Kevin: Wait for it.
I think Jeff brought out an excellent question…why are we known as legalistic? I don’t think we should simply assume those who answered the poll were Southern Baptist. If this is an image problem we have with our culture in general, then it is a serious problem we need to address and correct (and I don’t mean with an advertising campaign). If it is only Southern Baptist that have this perception, then we must ask what requirements we have that are legalistic? If we are legalistic because we ask people to share their faith, then I don’t mind the label.… Read more »
Olon, I think the term legalism usually goes with injunctions against things like alcohol, tobacco, clothing, dancing, movies, working in Sunday, etc. Now obviously there might be situations where anyone of those things can create a problem and deserve a word of rebuke or caution. But as Kevin alluded to, the SBC in general has gone beyond (in many people’s opinion) simple caution and biblical wisdom to blanket condemnation; with regard to alcohol for example. There may well be a time when Southern Baptists are told what “we” believe about eschatology, soteriology, and how to interpret the Genesis account of… Read more »
Some will have a negative view of any church. Some had a bad experience. Some are too sensitive and unreasonable about things. Some will believe that any group that takes a stand against sin is evil. Some dislike us simply because they disagree with us. Some believe missionaries are imperialistic and evil. If someone is negative about the SBC, they may be more likely to answer the survey. Of course, some may be legitimate complaints. We should learn from these perceptions, but most of all be trying to please Jesus and to be true to His Word. We should do… Read more »
This legalism could either be perceived legalism or it could legitimately be legalism. Sadly, I think it’s the latter. If it were perceived legalism I don’t think we would see “boycott, Disney, Pharisees, and Don’t” quite as big.
If you are interested you can read my response here.
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The first thing that has to be established is whether or not those of us who call oursleves Southern Baptists are in fact legalists. If we are, no amount of name changing will alter that fact.
Barry Wallaces last blog post..Vampires and Zombies on my iPod
I’m definitely legalistic and it gets worse the more I am around christian people (and blogs). The Disciplines of Grace by Jerry Bridges is a book that has really helped me grow in this area.
Name changes don’t get to the heart of the matter so it would be useless to call ourselves anything else. It would probably lean more towards making people think we are a cult anyway.
Some things will always be viewed with a stereotypical perception and nothing you do will change the perception… for instance Fried Chicken is pretty big in that wordel…LOL
We aren’t perfect. We do SIN daily. Truly if more of us focused on that personally, then we as a whole would be better off.
Have a blessed week!
Sallie
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I think Sallie is right. Changing our name will not accomplish anything unless we change what caused the label “legalistic” to be placed upon us in the first place. If we are legalistic, with alcohol for example, and we change our name to “The Fellowship of American Baptists” (FAB)– sorry couldn’t resist 😉 –and are still legalistic about alcohol, what has a name change acomplished? To borrow a line I heard recently, you can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig. If Southern Baptist’s are genuinly legalistic, we have to change from the bottom up, not the… Read more »
Several times being against alcohol and legalism have been equated. If biblical principles are against something it’s not legalism to be against it. Biblical teaching is certainly against the recreational use of a mind altering drug. Southern Baptists are on solid ground in opposing beverage alcohol. Reasons to be against it include biblical prinicples, compassion, saving lives and homes, automobile accidents, disease, etc. A recent scientific study (reported 2-25-2009) found that British women who drink moderately have a significantly higher risk of several kinds of cancer. It just could be that 150 years ago Southern Baptists realized that being for… Read more »
This is not a comment directed to David but a history of these discussions in general. If this posts spirals into a discussion on alcohol use within the SBC I think the point of legalism will be proven. And I do not mean that only those proclaiming “down with alcohol” are being legalistic. Those that are crying “freedom, freedom” can be just as legalistic; they just bow down to a different law.
The point of all of this is not so much with the specific forms of legalism but rather with hearts that are not radically in love with Jesus.
Teaching that drinking alcohol is sinful in and of itself is legalistic. Teaching that it is unwise (especially considering the circumstances) is not legalism. Those who often howl about their “fundamentalistic” brethren often fall to proof texting and oversimplification themselves. It seems that those who promote “social drinking” typically only focus on the latter portion of this passage from Prov. 31, and even then it is often wrenched out of context: It is not for kings, O Lemuel, It is not for kings to drink wine, Nor for princes intoxicating drink; 5 Lest they drink and forget the law, And… Read more »
I have had this topic stuck in my head far more than I have wanted today, not sure why. I think that compared to Christ, any denomination, church or movement is going to be disappointing. Look inside of whatever you consider the greatest gathering of believers you know of — your church, someone else’s church, a church from history — and you will discover that if you look long enough there is much to be disappointed about. But it is not about that church….it is about the Christ. I think Paul’s words about the parties in Corinth really apply here,… Read more »
I brought-up the alcohol issue because it is hard to find a better example of the SBC being legalistic. Indeed, the SBC is going against the Bible’s support of moderate wine-drinking. Both the OT and the NT justify the drinking of wine and consider it a blessing (and potential curse, as with all good things — sex, food, etc.). Jesus used wine as a symbol of his blood and commanded that it be used for successive generations as a commemoration of his sacrifice. These are the facts. Sorry to disappoint you. When your average person thinks about “Southern Baptists,” many… Read more »
Kevin, You present only one side of the argument. Plenty of evidence can be presented on the other side. We could begin by defining wine (yayin, tirosh, oinos) in its biblical and historical sense; rather than our modern day English usage of the word. Also, how the Jewish translators of the Septuagint viewed those words. Proper biblical interpretation is more concerned with how the words were used 2,000 years ago rather than how we use them today. As well as I remember, Jesus never used the word wine in connection with His blood. For the record, I believe one can… Read more »
David, I agree that one can be against beverage alcohol and radically in love with Jesus. Would you be willing to assert the opposite as well; that one can be NOT against beverage alcohol and radically in love with Jesus? Kevin Larson posted this quote by C.S. Lewis yesterday and I think it’s pretty timely. “One of the marks of a certain type of bad man is that he cannot give up a thing himself without wanting every one else to give it up. That is not the Christian way. An individual Christian may see fit to give up all… Read more »
Perceptions of the SBC vary by region and demographic. When I lived (for a VERY short time) in North Dakota, their view of Southern Baptists is much different that it was in Denver. The perception of Southern Baptists in Alabama and North Carolina is different from each of those. Here in southern West Virginia, we fight the perception that Southern Baptists are a bunch of liberals or that we’re controlled from Nashville. Our fascination with surveys and statistics is tiring and often times destructive. If the majority of people in our relativistic society think we are legalistic, that’s probably a… Read more »
David, I don’t doubt that a case can be made, historical and exegetical, but many of us find your position far from persuasive. And, unless it can be shown with clarity that scripture forbids alcohol-use, then a church or denomination has no justification to bind this law on others. That’s the problem: many SBC churches and seminaries want to make this a binding law on everyone else and without clear biblical authority to do so. This issue is a hindrance to the mission of the SBC. I am a young, twenty-something evangelical who works with and witnesses to other young,… Read more »
Mike, You ask a good question. I believe someone can be radically in love with Jesus and NOT be against not drinking, I would just believe they are wrong on this issue. I love and recommend C. S. Lewis and, like most Baptists, would disagree with him on some points. I would class giving up marriage, going to movies – and drinking beer – in different categories. I believe alcohol is directly condemned in Scripture, and that biblical principles condemn it. I believe alcohol as a recreational drug is bad in and of itself and causes untold destruction. I agree… Read more »
David, I am guessing that you hold to what others have deemed the “anti-alcohol” position. But your comment “I doubt the world will love us if we give in to social drinking” speaks to the perception of alcohol, not to alcohol itself. On this point, I think Mike did a great job with a quote from C.S. Lewis. I don’t have a problem with a Christian having a drink (my writing that mean I am not SBC anymore?), but you are correct that society will most likely look at that with a frown. We have created the perception in our… Read more »
David,
You wrote, “I believe alcohol is directly condemned in Scripture, and that biblical principles condemn it.” This is what Kevin brought out in his comment, and you do not reference any Scripture to support your claim. There is no biblical condemnation of alcohol (at least as far as I know), neither directly nor indirectly. There is, however, biblical condemnation of drunkeness, but that is completely different than condemning alcohol.
Olon Hydes last blog post..Should churches require anything for membership?
Olon, You hit the nail on the head. Paul elaborates on this in Romans 14:19-22 as well: 19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed… Read more »
This certainly contributes to our perception as legalists.
Yes. It does. And it is obvious.
So, when will blogs, like SBC Voices, come out and call for a change on this point? Or will they just keep toeing the party line, subverting scripture in the process?
Kevin Daviss last blog post..You Never Let Go
“They have turned the world upside down.” That was the popular view of the early Christians, and they were not well-received either. Guess what? They, too, had arguments over legalism and license just as we do. It is a part of the fermentation process going on where people are at least alive to the fact that there are issues. It is when there is no fermentation that things get really dicey..er LUKEWARM. Having suffered all of my ministry from legalism (just imagine how many churches will turn you down due to a second marriage….think in the hundreds, perhaps more), theology… Read more »
I think the Kentucky research Darryl is referencing is a survey of Kentucky Baptist pastors and laity we conducted in 2005 to better understand perceptions and knowledge on a range of topics. The executive summary for the research can be found at http://www.kybaptist.org/kbc/welcome.nsf/files/schmidtexsum/$File/schmidtexsum.pdf?OpenElement
wow … i thought i was the only one who thought “legalism” when i think Southern Baptist
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Kevin, I appreciate you recognizing that a biblical case can be made against alcohol. You may not find the exegetical arguments against alcohol persuasive, but I and many others do. That would include many of the most scholarly out there. Others – The Bible speaks directly against alcohol. Proverbs 23 gives a detailed description of fermented wine and its effects – and the wisest man in the world said not to even look at it. Scripture commands us to be sober (1 Thessalonians 5:6-9, etc.). Alcoholics Anonymous would be happy to explain to anyone that sober means no alcohol at… Read more »
@ Robert Reeves Thanks for linking that report, very interesting read. @ Everyone else I really need to get threaded comments so I could at least respond (and follow) this conversation. The difference between “don’t get drunk” and “avoid all drinking” is the difference between discipleship and legalism. That’s not to minimize the command to love weaker brothers, but if we were culture neutral the debate would end there. Now for the real issue. FRIED CHICKEN is not good for the environment and any green Christian should reject it as immoral and anti-Gospel. {But I still indulge in the chicken… Read more »
Tony, Since this post has morphed into a discussion on alcohol use, I want to send you a link to a couple of posts by the dean of Reformed Baptist Seminary. It’s an excellent treatment of the subject, as good as any I’ve seen. By the way, their feed would be another good one to add to one of your aggregators. I’ll put them in a separate post so you can fish them out of the spam filter if you need to. Feel free to combine them into one, if you want. Barry Wallaces last blog post..Vampires and Zombies on… Read more »
Here are the links I mentioned:
The Son of Man Came Drinking: Was Jesus a Social Drinker? Part I
The Son of Man Came Drinking: Was Jesus a Social Drinker? Part II
Barry Wallaces last blog post..Vampires and Zombies on my iPod
Barry, Since I seem to be the only “legalist” in this discussion, let me add a few comments and quotes in contrast to your links. I’ve heard many times. The only drink they had in Bible times was fermented wine. The water was unsafe, so they had to drink wine. And since they had no refrigeration they had no way to keep it from fermenting. If that were true, men women and children would have been falling down drunk 24 hours a day. Since we don’t know how to preserve unfermented wine without modern day methods, we assume they didn’t… Read more »
David,
If the wine was not fermented why the warnings to not get drunk? It doesnt make sense.
Matt Svobodas last blog post..The Purposeful Path…to the Love of Your Life
Matt, Good question. I’m not saying there were no intoxicating drinks or fermented wine in Bible times. Just that the common wine was not intoxicating. Somewhat like today in that we have plenty of intoxicating and non-intoxicating drinks. Haven’t checked statistics, but I would imagine if you added up all the common drinks of today, most would be non-intoxicating. Coffee, tea, soft drinks, milk, punch, power drinks, fruit drinks, bottled water, etc. I know some of you guys are hooked on coffee J. Yayin and oinos were generic terms that could refer to either fermented or unfermented wine. Quotes and… Read more »
The sentence, “I know some of you guys are hooked on coffee 🙂 ” was supposed to end with a note of humor.
David R. Brumbelow
I have said nothing about the issue of wine, because it behooves all of us to be very carful on this issue. Some folks take things wrong and turn that into a justification for indulgence in either drink or arrogant legalism. Neither extreme is desirable. I will answer the issue from the historical perspectives. It use to be that Baptist churches used wine (I never saw anything else to the contrary in the records back past the temperance movement). After temperance became abstinence, then the use of wine declined as it was replaced with grape juice (which action by the… Read more »
I can think of examples where water as for drinking (Woman @ the Well) and when they said Jesus drank too much (Son of Man came eating and drinking). The tired old line about “lite” wine and poised water just doesn’t work. Wine was definitely their cultural expression of celebration & a symbol of God’s blessing. That’s not so much the case in America. As a pastor I do not have biblical warrant to forbid people from all drinking. Making rules beyond what the Bible gives is clear legalism. But I do have warrant to teach about wisdom and let… Read more »
They drank fermented wine in ancient times, but that‘s not the only wine they had. They drank water, my previous point is just that some seem to imply they could not drink the water so they had to drink strong, alcoholic wine. As Nehemiah points out (Nehemiah 5:18), they had all kinds of wine. Pharaoh liked his wine fresh and unfermented (Genesis 40:11). My point has been that the wine “regularly” used in Bible times was either unfermented or of a very low alcoholic content. The scholars I quoted above confirm that. We read our modern day ideas of strong… Read more »
I had a dear friend who wrote his dissertation for the Dr. of Theology at one of ours seminaries more than 50 yrs. ago, seeking to establish the views that Bro. David is arguing. He was a good man, led the singing for r. George W. Truett in a revival in Alabama, was more less Arminian in his theological views, except for the usual first and last points of the tulip outline. But h was a mn of God. When Phenix City Alabama was the sin city of the USA he led his people in winning some of the gang… Read more »
http://theophilogue.wordpress.com/2008/12/07/alcohol-consumption-is-okey-dokey-daniel-b-wallace/
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