Let me make two statements before I address this topic:
1) I am a longtime fan of John MacArthur’s ministry, his writings, and his theology. I am in no way anti-Mac.
2) I did not attend or stream his recent “Strange Fire” conference, nor have I read the book. My experience with MacArthur and his views on the charismatic movement are based on his older book, “Charismatic Chaos” and other books I read as a young cessationist preacher boy (fresh out of Dallas Seminary), which informed my view on charismatic/Pentecostal issues for the first decade or so of my ministry.
John MacArthur and the strict, passionate cessationists who agree with him have set the theological/social media world on fire (strange fire?) with his conference, just concluding, called “Strange Fire.” In this conference (evidently), MacArthur confronts the dangerous doctrines of the Word of Faith movement and demonstrates that this movement twists the gospel to its breaking point. But, according to discussions, he and his compatriots also seem to be arguing that WoF and other extreme views are the norm in charismatic/Pentecostal circles. Some of the readers of this post may have streamed the conference and may be able to expand upon, or even correct, my representation.
As I said, I read “Charismatic Chaos” and other such books a long time ago, when I was what I now call a “hopeful cessationist.” I found charismatics weird and I badly wanted to believe that the Bible had no support for their doctrine. Then, two things happened to me. First, as I studied the biblical bases for cessationist doctrine, I realized that it just didn’t pass biblical muster – straining exegesis to the breaking point. Then, I began to fellowship with, pray with, and even do some limited ministry with charismatic and Pentecostal friends in Cedar Rapids. I still had some theological differences with them, and at times they were pretty strong differences. But I realized that they were not the wacko extremists that I had expected them to be as a result of my consistent diet of cessationist anti-charismatic propaganda.
I have mixed feelings about John MacArthur (and his fellows) and their teachings on the subject.
1) John MacArthur is RIGHT – Word of Faith, Prosperity and other Extreme doctrines are serious threats to the biblical gospel.
I am glad MacArthur is taking a stand against the false doctrines that have become so prevalent in the world today. The high-profile televangelists offering unlimited health, wealth and happiness to anyone who follows Christ are truly offering “strange fire”, deceiving God’s people and leading Christ-loving folks astray. It is important that we confront those false doctrines – directly and even by name. That is not popular in this world and I appreciate that through the years Mac has been willing to take unpopular and bold stands against false teachers and their destructive teachings. Weak-kneed Christianity is not helpful in a world of false teachings.
I know we have a variety of eschatological here at Voices, but my view (also known as the correct or biblical view – sorry) takes note of the fact that just about every passage in the Bible that deals with the end times also warns that false teachers will abound in those days. To simply assume that every person who names the name of Christ is a genuine Christian preacher is naive at best and spiritually suicidal at worst.
I appreciate that MacArthur and others are identifying and confronting false doctrine.
2) John MacArthur is WRONG – Word of Faith and Prosperity preachers are false, but they are not the heart and soul of charismatics today. This is the problem I have with many of the more virulent cessationists – their tendency to paint the extremes of the C/P movement as the norm.
I’ve seen some of those same people complain about those who have applied the same technique with Calvinists and Calvinism. A lady in my previous church once asked, “Why do you guys spend so much time on these outreaches. If God wants to save them, he will.” That is an extreme and dangerous viewpoint. But it is not representative of the Calvinist movement as a whole. In my church, some of the most actively evangelistic and “missional” people in our church are the “five-point” club (with a few 4 point members). Calvinists do not want their viewpoint defined by those extremes, nor is it fair or accurate to do so. Cessationists, many of whom are Calvinists, should not employ this unfair tactic and define charismatic/Pentecostals by the extremes.
I think it is unfair to sit back in our spiritual enclaves and paint our theological opponents in extreme terms. Calvinists are the enemy. Anti-Calvinists are out to destroy the Calvinists. Charismatics are wackos. Non-Calvinists don’t like the Holy Spirit. When we paint our theological opponents as extremists, we damage the Body of Christ.
The solution, I think, is fellowship and discussion. Frank Page’s Calvinism committee brought theological opponents together and some friendships and better understanding was reached. It was personal fellowship with charismatics and Pentecostals that helped me to realize that the televangelists I disdained (unapologetically) were not representative of rank and file charismatics.
Fundamentally, I think a conference by a cadre of passionately anti-charismatics to discuss the failings of the charismatic movement will be unhelpful and even destructive. Why not engage some of the leading, but less extreme, charismatics in a discussion, rather than marshaling speaker after speaker to lash and bash those on the other side?
So, I appreciate Dr. MacArthur’s willingness to draw theological lines against false doctrine and those who promote them, but I think he goes too far when he tends to paint the extremes of the movement as the norm.
How did you come to the conclusion it is not the norm in the charismatic movement?
As I said in the article – by getting to know, fellowshipping with and even ministering together with a lot of charismatics and Pentecostals.
pastormitchell: how did you come to the conclusion that it *is* the norm?
Perhaps by statistical sampling..
Please look at the statistics yourself. They differ from the dogmatic conclusions promoted by the Strange Fire conference leaders.
Dave, I appreciate your point that the WoF doctrines are not the norm particularly among Pentecostals. That is my experience with Pentecostals in particular. For many years I attended Pentecostal churches and the WoF doctrines were not taught in them. I have heard several Pentecostals wondering aloud why and how some of the current big name WoF teachers went so wrong. In some cases the older Pentecostals knew the parents of the current teachers and knew that their parents didn’t believe that way. During that time in my walk I kept my distance from most independent Charismatic churches because that… Read more »
As a long haul truck driver I have stopped and visited churches all across the SE United States. And I can say to you every church is unique in its own way. I have stopped at a Penticostal church that locked the door behind me and only had a streaming video sermon to a Penticostal church that said the charismactics down the road were a bit out there. (I had left that charismactic church after seeing how freaky they were myself and found the Penticostal church that reminded me of Baptist). I have seen SBC churches that lean from Charismatic… Read more »
Evidently, something I said on Facebook was quoted by Phil Johnson at the Strange Fire conference. I’ve already been made aware of one inaccuracy, but I’m guessing that there were probably more.
Dave,
Here is the link from Phil Johnson’s Cripplegate blog.
Oops, Clipboard not working! Again, here it is: http://thecripplegate.com/strange-fire-providence-is-remarkable-phil-johnson/
It was kind of amazing. He both quoted me and completely, intentionally misrepresented me at the same time. I’ve contacted him about that, but received no response yet.
Curious. Would you elaborate more on your claim of complete, intentional misrepresentation by pastor Phil Johnson?
Please, let us know if you get a reply. I used to read the ‘Pyromaniacs’ blog pretty regularly, but not so much now. In general I respect Phil’s ministry and especially his devotion to using the writings of Charles Haddon Spurgeon. Grace to You is one of the ministries I provide financial support to. I rarely disagree with John MacArthur and when I do, I accept that his biblical knowledge far exceeds mine so I am always listening. I’m personally on the fence about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. When I was many years younger I belonged to a… Read more »
Katie, I’ve exchanged several emails, would not call the issue resolved, but I do not intend to say any more about this publicly.
I googled to find the post by Dave Miller that Phil Johnson referenced. Which also led to discovering that Jared Moore published a rebuttal.
FWIW, I think Jared had sufficient counterarguments to carry the day.
My guess is that you were already a convinced cessationist when you approached our articles?
I lean towards being a soft, kind, gentle, sweet, yet lovingly tofu-firm cessationist. Just the same way as I am as a soft, kind, gentle, sweet, yet lovingly tofu-firm Calvinist. Just the same way as I am as a soft, kind, gentle, sweet, yet lovingly tofu-firm Creationist. Just the same way as I am as a soft, kind, gentle, sweet, yet lovingly tofu-firm Complementarian. Just the same way as I am as a soft, kind, gentle, sweet, yet lovingly tofu-firm Chicago Statement of Inerrancy inerrantist. Just the same way as I am as a soft, kind, gentle, sweet, yet lovingly… Read more »
I was just hoping that when someone makes such dogmatic statements there was more conclusive evidence than anecdotal. In my personal experience with charismatics whom I have gotten to know and even ministered with, not a single one of them was not a follower of the WOF teachings. I did not realize there was anyone out there who did not believe this is the prominent view among charismatics. This is a first.
Dave, Since I have not had much fellowship with the Charismatic/Pentecostal crowd, my question is this: If most C/P pastors disagree with Word of Faith, then are they confronting it? (I honestly don’t know the answer to this) It seems to me that if the leaders among C/P churches would deal with these issues biblically, then we wouldn’t need someone like MacArthur to organize a Strange Fire conference. The fact that MacArthur has organized such a conference “suggests” that these issues are not being confronted – and if the issues are not being confronted then it becomes much harder to… Read more »
That is a common question, but if you read Charisma magazine online, they DO confront the false teachings. I think it is a chestnut of the more virulent cessationists (not saying you are one of those) to say, “Charismatics don’t confront the false teachers.” I have two answers to this. 1) It is not completely true. 2) The highest value of many charismatics is unity – a noble goal – so they are often reluctant to confront when they should. In fact, a prominent charismatic preacher (he’s appeared on most of the big national shows) told me, “We need you… Read more »
Dave, That’s kind of what I expected you’d say, and I absolutely agree. As I said, I was honestly asking the questions because I don’t have much experience with the C/P folks, so I appreciate your comments. Regarding the unity being a noble goal, while I do agree, I think you’d agree that without purity the only unity we can have is superficial/false unity. And, like you, this is where it pains me to see our brothers like MacArthur lose their opportunity to actually help bring TRUE unity rather than more division. Regarding the purity/unity issue though, we even see… Read more »
Dave, I appreciate your comments. I might add that Gordon Fee, an Assemblies pastor, long-time New Testament professor at, Wheaton, Gordon-Conwell, and Regent College in Vancouver, author of many Bible commentaries, wrote a little booklet – “The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel”, a strong biblical critique. I remember when I was an associate pastor at a Korean Southern Baptist church, that SBC dignitaries would come to visit and show up at the daily 5 am prayer meeting where the custom was to turn out the lights, kneel down in the pews, and pray out loud – everybody at… Read more »
I would have to say that I have never really thought that WoF was something prevalent in only Charismatic circles. I did go to a wedding last year at a “Full Gospel” megachurch in Richmond, and it was definitely WoF (even included an apology for prosperity preaching during the service) but I STILL didnt consider this just something exclusive to the C/P’s. Why? Because I see this WoF prosperity bunk being praised by VERY cessationist regular old Southern Baptists every day. These TV preachers are so popular and slick, I cant hardly even be critical of them without being labeled… Read more »
You may have hit on something explanatory, Adam. Perhaps the megachurches/big ministries are dominated by the WoF folks and that has led to a false impression that they are dominant. Just a theory, but it makes some sense.
Well, consider what many think is normative in SBC life, based on megachurches and superstars…
and then compare that to the reality of most SBC churches. What gets published, pushed, and publicized is rarely the norm.
Yep
A former charismatic appreciates John MacArthur and the Strange Fire Conference: “I was once in the charismatic movement about 5 years ago. At the age of 18 the Lord saved me from the clutches of Satan of a life of crime and darkness. I was attending a charismatic church at that time however I was taught that I had to maintain my salvation. I was taught that I had to speak in tongues, that I had to have these experiences to be truly saved and perhaps if I had enough of these experiences then maybe I would be sealed for… Read more »
One persons’ experience is not definitive – not mine or this anonymous person’s.
Hi.. I’m a South African living in the beautiful western cape province. I grew up in the charasmatic movement and most of my family is pentecostle. My experience growing up is almost identicle to that of “Truth Unites… and Divides”. Believe me.. this is much more than one person’s experience. Not to go into a lot of detail and I am not a cessationist, but do not believe that the gifts used by most charasmatics today is the same as the biblical gifts. In South Africa the WoF teaching seems to be what separates orthodox Pentecostals from charasmatics. This teaching… Read more »
Dave, I believe some perceptions of this topic can be heavily influenced by where you live. While here in West TN, I don’t experience any interaction with false doctrine flowing from WOF here (besides the people who are influenced by watching it on TV), but with charismatics…very much so. So in that sense, I’ve never really intermingled the two very much in my mind because I haven’t experienced them firsthand existing together in a local church. Now when it comes to charismatics in this area, the majority that I have ever had conversations with are modalists. So in the sense… Read more »
True.
Matthew 5:43-48 teaches we are perfect when we love our enemies as God does. John 13:34-35 clearly states we are commanded to love and will be known by all for our love for each other. As much as I agree with a lot of McAuthor’s teachings we are told it is not our words that define us but our love and fruits that we will be known by. Is McAuthor and his followers know for loving there enemies? As a pastor in a gated community that has banned all previous churches and caused them to fail we know our hope… Read more »
I haven’t found the cessationist/continuist categories to be helpful, although my thinking isn’t settled enough on the issue to give an alternative dichotomy to draw the balance. Many thoughtful Christians discern problems with both and reluctantly try to find a balance on the fence. Cessationism isn’t solidly supported from scripture and continuationism isn’t shown as normative in the writings of Paul. I don’t buy that creating a category for prophecy that doesn’t exist in the Hebrew scriptures is what Paul would have ever referred to, for example.
Not sure I get your point.
I apologize, Dave, I’ll try to explain a little better. Neither category in their present-day iterations satisfies exegetical standards. Supporting both categories are strong instances of extrabibilical rationalle. The biblical support for cessationism is the sufficiency of scripture. The biblical support for continuationism is the lack of any stong indication that miraculous gifts should have ceased. The non-biblical criticism of continuationism is the high level of abuse, which is no proof that the gifts should have ceased. It’s only proof that they are easily abused. Further criticism is the observation that outside of miraculous spiritual discernment, we have an epistemological… Read more »
“Another example: If someone starts yammering in some tongue I don’t know, it doesn’t edify me.”
It doesn’t?
Jimbo, have you ever been part of a prayer group, and someone starts yammering in a tongue you don’t know?
If you have, you said it didn’t edify you. If you don’t mind sharing, what were your thoughts when you heard tongue yammering during this time of prayer?
I have prayed with a guy who prayed in tongues. It neither particularly blessed me or offended me. I prayed in English, while he prayed his way – for the same things.
The prayer time was good.
I have prayed corporately with people who spoke a language I didn’t know and wasn’t translated. It didn’t edify me as one who was supposed to be included in the prayer. I bowed my head and prayed my own prayer silently. Interestingly, the results are similar to prayer in the Southern Missionary Baptist churches my grandfather pastored. During prayer time, the deacons and elders would all kneel down in the front and all pray out loud at the same time. Each voice rising and falling at different times. Individually, they prayed so fast I would have trouble following just one… Read more »
“I have been in English worship services where someone jumps up and starts speaking loudly in what I can only imagine is what people usually mean when they say “speaking in tongues”. It didn’t edify me. I ignored them as best I could because the planned activities of the corporate gathering continued on the same. I must say it was somewhat distracting.” It wouldn’t edify me either. it would be really distracting. I wonder if such behaviors were accepted and tolerated in the OT worship of God. If not, then is it because there is a New Covenant that such… Read more »
“Tongues” – a language that one does not know or has not learned before is well attested in the Tanack (OT) and appears readily in Rabbinic writings and Chasidic esoteric teachings. (A look at this in the Tanack is very interesting). While, it is attested to, it is not something “used in worship” in the manner that we think. It is hard to define all of this without a long explanation except to say the concept of worship is vastly different than we think of today. The use of “tongues” as an ecstatic utterance (for lack of a better term)… Read more »
“While, it is attested to, it is not something “used in worship” in the manner that we think. It is hard to define all of this without a long explanation except to say the concept of worship is vastly different than we think of today.”
That’s interesting.
Would it be safe to say that distractions in corporate worship would be regarded as a bad thing in both OT and NT times?
No, not really. It would depend on who is doing the distracting and why.
This is a fascinating window for me, as someone who pastors in a Charismatic setting. It’s commendable, in a way, that uninterpreted tongues did not disturb some of you. However, I specifically teach against uninterpreted tongues in group settings. When we are in meetings at other churches I am careful not to verbalize tongues aloud for all the reasons Paul gives us. When I’m leading a meeting, I do not allow an uninterpreted tongue to “hang in the air.” This calls for faith that someone there will interpret or that I will. We wait on God for an interpretation. As… Read more »
Nick: I’m not a cessationist. By “ecstatic utterance” I did not mean to imply that they are not real or not spiritual or that the person is in just in a state of ecstasy. It is just a term used to describe that type of religious phenomenon. Paul certainly addresses this as reality, not gibberish. But, there is a difference between that and tongues as language. Tongues as a language is well attested to in the Tanack and there is an interesting connection of tongues as language in Judaism between Babel, Sinai and Pentecost. This is different than what Paul… Read more »
I spent about 7 years attending a weekly prayer meeting at an AoG church here. Also went on Sunday nights when FBC wasn’t having anything. They were definitely not WoF in any way.
All I can say is if God ever drops the “dreaded scourge” of the unknown tongue on somebody, in a spectacular way, somebody’s gonna change REAL quick.
my experience with charismatics has been, basically, negative. In my childhood, we had a woman pastor of a charismatic church who ran off with her deacon who had four sons. And then there was a charismatic church near my first church where they had to have blankets handy for the ladies to hold around those ladies who felt led to stick their feet up in the air. A former holiness preacher told me they had done the same thing in a church he pastored. Add to that the charismatics like Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, and a host of others with… Read more »
Dave, I did watch the Strange Fire Conference and have the book and will read it. I also have friends in the Charismatic movement and also distant family. I understand what you are talking about when you point out that not all the Charismatics are as far out as the ones who bark like dogs, have health wealth doctrine and change basic doctrines of the Scripture. However, it is still way out there when people like Beth Moore (who I would assume you would NOT put in the “extreme” crowd) builds a whole lesson on “A word God gave me… Read more »
I understand your point, but I think I resist the word “strange fire” in general. It designates that which is false, idolatrous, offensive to God. I believe that people can be mistaken without being described as “strange fire.” In fact, I think it is one of the key failings of the more hardcore cessationist viewpoints – often Reformed as well. They tend to view anything that disagrees with their position as a threat to truth, justice and the American way. We can be a little more gracious than that. I can disagree with charismatics without describing their POV as strange… Read more »
“But to paint all the charismatic world as offering strange fire to God is 1) wrong 2) an insult to the Body of Christ”
With you both going to the wall on this, I look forward to you and MacArthur going head-to-head in a public forum. After all, to insult (accuse?) the Body of Christ is serious business– is it not in fact what the devil does day and night?
Several have offered to engage MacArthur on the topic, but he has, as I understand it, ignored them.
🙂
Well, I mean yourself. You suggest MacArthur’s stance is “an insult to the Body of Christ”. Do you not agree this to be an extremely serious offense, and one which should be debated and either established or denied in a public forum? Is not such a stance equivalent to the work of Satan, who accuses the saints constantly, and not entirely without truth, before the Almighty (according to the book of Revelation)? The saints overcome due to the blood of the Lamb and the endless advocacy of the Lamb, our High Priest, before the Father. Yes, also by the word… Read more »
“If” we lend credence to the way most Charismatics view the three main sign gifts then what do we do with Inerrancy and Sufficiency of existing Scripture? Was it inerrant and sufficient at one time but not know? I mean if the Charismatics get a “word from God” it is either a Word from God or it is not. There is no in between with this. If they do get a word from God then who approves it as a word from God? What validates it? The very act of the fact they prophesied or maybe someone “speaking in tongues… Read more »
As I read your comment, I am reminded of how much this sounds like me 20 years ago. Then something happened as I was reading the Bible. I became convicted that it is because the Scriptures are inerrant and sufficient that I can not explain them away. There are biblical instructions for how the gifts of the Holy Spirit are to be used. When we read these instructions in context, it reveals that God’s Word exhorts us to desire and responsibly use these gifts. His sufficient, perfect Word gives us instructions on how to use gifts to build up the… Read more »
Brad, I here you brother, but the revelation of God’s Word was the reason for the sign gifts, either to reveal His Word in prophecy or tongues or to verify it with the direct power to heal. My questions concerning the sufficiency of existing Scripture and the validity of that Scripture is still hung out there. If these sign gifts are still applicable to the church today (and I believe an honest exposition of ALL Scripture pertaining leads to a NO answer) but if, then it is evident the reason for these gifts (per Paul’s writings) is new revelation from… Read more »
Also Brad I would like to point out that an honest interrputation is not answering or explaining the Scriptures away. I too at first thought that maybe these sign gifts should be applicable. However closer study of the Word and being consistent with it led me away from that. I was open for it falling either way as I searched the Scriptures.
A lot of MacArthur’s recent books make this same mistake – rightly criticizing theological views that differ from his own and wrongly extrapolating his critique where it does not remotely apply. That’s unfortunate because he’s perhaps the pre-eminent New Testament scholar of our time. Regarding MacArthur’s materials, I’ve learned to apply the admonition of Al-Anon: take what you like and leave the rest.
Good strategy.
I think your wrong. Most charismatics are in fact Word of Faith at their core, even if not a 100% match on all theological points. I would say a charismatic is like a dog, and a WoF is like a wolf. They may be slightly different, but they are compatible and both have the same health, wealth, prosperity, and ecstatic emotionalism agendas. I know because I was sort of raised around it, and praise God for deliverance from that witchcraft and leading towards a genuine reverence for the Word of God!
It wouldn’t be the first time. I also would observe that this is the kind of dogmatism and lack of grace I’ve come to expect from certain segments of the church, unfortunately.
I don’t know what kind of church you were raised in, but I’m guessing now you are spending more time listening to “Strange Fire” – type rants about charismatics than engaging charismatics themselves.
Actually it’s been a blessing because I spend much more time in the Word than I did before. Also, charismania is similar to Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons. Why would I want to spend time with them? As a Bible believing Christian I am called to love and honor everyone, yet be separated from those who defiantly refuse to submit to right Biblical doctrine.
The charismatic/pentecostal movement is at its core in doctrine anti-Trinitarian. If there were some unique work of the Spirit in all of this, then we would not hearing about the Spirit and his works and his power; Jesus would be high and lifted up from dawn to dusk. How more clear do you want it to be? “The Spirit will not speak of himself”; how much less appropriate then for his followers to exalt him and their special knowledge of him. One, and only one religious movement claiming to be the church and the keeper of the flame, has set… Read more »
Jesus is enough, his grace is sufficient. As someone who people would consider Charismatic( I am nondenom) I’ve never in my whole life heard of wof or prosperity gospel being preached at all ever at my church. I think when we take or focus off of Jesus and his lovingkidness and mercy and focus on each others faults that’s when we miss the gospel.
I’m far from a Cessationist and far from being Pentecostal/Charismatic. I fall somewhere in the middle. While I agree with Pastor MacArthur on certain things and disagree with him on certain things, here is an area I disagree with him at. Of course I agree that WoF and Prosperity Heresy are dangerous to the body of Christ, not to mention our witness in general. It’s our job to denounce them publicly. It’s why there’s Biblical precedent for naming names and calling them what they are: false teachers. If the leadership of every biblical church publicly denounced these teachers and their… Read more »
Good thoughts, Dave. I agree with them. My experience with Charismatics personally has been positive, even the WoF types. They believe the Bible, but in my opinion, are terribly wrong in some areas. I am not a strict cessastionist. I don’t really find that in scripture. But I do believe that many of the events in Acts and the epistles appear to be different from what has been experienced in much of Christian history and the present. I attribute that to the working of God in ways that we just don’t understand. Many Charismatics would attribute it to a lack… Read more »
I think the MacArthur crowd should be labeled “neo-cessationists” in that they as Kevin DeYoung’s post on the Puritan’s and cessationism showed it is not the historic view. At least this way we can not fall into the same trap of not giving distinct where distinction is due as was done at this conference.
We thought you might like this message entitled, “A Pastor’s Thoughts from John MacArthur’s Strange Fire Conference: A Plea for Balance and Meeting in the Middle”: http://vimeo.com/77337223
Thank you.
I have not yet listened to the above sermon but I do plan on it. the title interested me. How do we meet in the middle here? I do not understand how that is possible for both positions are total opposites. Two opposing views can not both be right, Either we get new revelations from God or we don’t. What would a middle position look like?? Would it be “I believe God’s word is inerrant and sufficient but I believe God is still revealing directly His Word to man”?, that statement is really contradictory of itself. We need to quit… Read more »
Thank you for your approach. Please note our many free resources in English and Spanish, especially the material concerning the Prosperity Movement
http://www.smallings.com/english/books/ProspENG.htm
In His bonds,
Roger Smalling
http://www.smallings.com/index.html
Pastor Dave, Thanks for your post, and I find this to be a fascinating discussion. I am an “outsider” here, being that I am a charismatic and I serve a Pentecostal church as its associate pastor. I hate the fact that one must feel the need to term myself an outsider when we are among those who name the Name of Christ, but the events of the past week have made it difficult for me to feel different. Just on this comment thread I have seen C/P referred to as dogs, and anti-trinitarian at its core. And from the conference… Read more »
On behalf of all Christians who are also Southern Baptist, I apologize. Sometimes, the pride of our denomination overrides what should be our humility in Christ. For those who are Southern Baptists first and may or may not be Christians… well, I can’t apologize for the lost. I’ve not personally experienced (that i know of) the charismatic gifts, save one time at the Oasis of Love church when Mr Osteen (not Joel) was the pastor. I was a kid and didn’t understand and won’t judge according to the childish eyes of my memory. I do think their are many who… Read more »
Thanks, Greg, for your kind and thoughtful words.
I apologize as well for all the Charismatics and Pentecostals who thought they had “arrived” because they had an experience – and didn’t mind saying so…
We know that even if a man has a valid experience it is a thing received from God. And too many of us in the C/P universe have forgotten that there’s a 1 Corinthians 13 in between chs. 12 and 14, and forgot why it’s there. 😉
God bless
Here is James White’s take on the Strange Fire Conference. It starts at the 50.33 mark.
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2013/10/22/strange-fire-friendly-fire-mis-fire-how-many-puns-do-we-really-need/
truthunites….that’s his name….
Thanks for sharing your reasoned and helpful thoughts, Dave. As a DTS grad who is at a conservative church but also serves on the board of a charismatic church, I agree with you. It’s unfortunate that MacArthur holds that all charismatics are not believers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W80GTU53BE).
“It’s unfortunate that MacArthur holds that all charismatics are not believers.” It’s ironic that one of the accusations made towards the Strange Fire Conference and John MacArthur is that sweeping generalizations are made, and yet here’s one lobbied at John MacArthur. It’s not true. In the opening session: Am I discrediting everyone in the movement? “No. I think there are people to desire to worship God in a true way. They’re caught up in this as well, though, because intention is not enough. But the movement itself offers nothing to enrich true worship. The Charismatic movement as such has made… Read more »
truthunites, thanks for responding and sharing the above quote which I was unaware of. It is much “softer” than the words and tone in the above YouTube link of a Q&A period. If you have the time, I would suggest watching it (about 3 miniutes); Dr. MacArthur’s words are quite clear.
Good post!
For the most part, the “classic” Pentecostal churches believe and operate very similarly to Baptist churches, with the exception being that the gifts of the Spirit are in operation today. There are many within the broader “charismatic” movement that preach unscriptural doctrines, and that is usually where the bizarre things and even “strange fire” come in. Ultimately, we must argue from the Scriptures. If the Scriptures clearly teach that the gifts of the Spirit are no longer in operation, it would settle the matter, but they do not.
I am one of those people who was raised Pentecostal and I have formal training in both Pentecostal Universities as well as the leading Charismatic bible schools. I agree that there are some different ideas that are being taught as scripture. Having said that, let me state for the record that my observation includes most every denomination, association, affiliation and fellowship one can think of in Christendom. What I have found is there are the essentials that we must agree on (those things that give us our eternal security). Everything else, God is more concerned about the heart than the… Read more »
“What I have found is there are the essentials that we must agree on (those things that give us our eternal security). Everything else, God is more concerned about the heart than the theology” That is a very broad and general statement, and at the same time highly authoritative and suggests you are the holder and purveyor of very deep and powerful spiritual wisdom, a teacher to the whole church of only that which is right. However I do not think you can sustain these two profound commandments using sound principles of exegesis and Biblical theology. What do you mean… Read more »
A couple of points as to whether the abuses are the norm:
All one has to do is turn on Christian television to see that the “word of faith” leaders
are taking over. Live outside the U.S in the third world (like I do) and you who are
sensible Bible believing people might be shocked at the effect that these false so called
prophets and apostles are having.
Besides the late Walter Martin and a few Calvary Chapel pastors, the silence and lack of condemnation from those who believe all the gifts continue has been sorely lacking.
I am very late to the conversation on this issue. However, I need a little clarification. When “pentecostals” or “a pentecostal church” is being referred to, what is meant? I ask this because the pentecostals, the pentecostal churches I grew up around in Louisiana were modalists, denying the trinity. Thus, they would not be brothers or sisters in Christ.
You speak of “Oneness Pentecostals” and some groups that call themselves “Apostolic” or “Jesus Only.”
They do exist, but they are a small percentage of Pentecostals.
I agree with you about their denial of the Trinity and its significance.
1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel…” 1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as “one that beateth the air:” 1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. Ro 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things… Read more »
What is a “jabbers” tongue? I still find it disturbing that people say tongues is gibberish… as if they possess knowledge of all languages known to man. More importantly, perhaps, it’s disturbing to me that people will tie these issues of behavior to the mere fact of being influenced by the Charismatic “movement,” as if there actually is a “Charismatic movement” in 2013 rather than hundreds of millions of people who have different denominational distinctives and practices and just happen to believe in the continuation of spiritual gifts. In our region we have churches which pray together and worship together… Read more »
On the 90% statistic… One source is the 229-page Pew Forum study “Spirit and Power: A 10-Country Survey of Pentecostals,” which can be downloaded from their website. Needless to say, ten countries is hardly a representative sample of the entire planet (the U.S. and three nation-states each from Asia, Africa and Latin America). I was amazed at the dishonest way the stats on the prosperity gospel were misinterpreted – and ignored – by MacArthur on Tim Challies blog (“John MacArthur Answers His Critics” 11/4/13) where he takes a quote from a book [“Yet the Pew Forum data suggests that the… Read more »
Thanks, Kate. That is very helpful.
I might find myself a bit over my theological pay grade here, as I am a surgeon and not a pastor, but I couldn’t help but see if I could add my two cents here. I am not a pastor, but I am a christian who was saved by the power of Jesus Christ from the lie that is atheism. I was brought up in that way and believed in the “power” of science and the scientific method. While I am fully a believer, and accept the authoritative power of scripture as definitive, I do still retain the need for… Read more »
You can operate on my any time, sir.
Doctor,
Well said. A welcome and different perspective from the norm here. Balanced, biographical, and Bible based. Quite interesting. Thanks.
While I agree with much of what the good doctor has written, especially about what is seen on TV, I don’t believe that it is the whole picture. I would recommend reading Craig Keener’s exhaustive two volume study: Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts, Baker Academic,, c2011, where he catalogs global contemporary miracles comparable to the New Testament miracles, ie. blindness, paralysis, etc. . . as a major part of his case. Secondly, I would read some of the recent work by Candy Gunther Brown, a professor at Indiana University: Testing Prayer: Science and Healing, Harvard University Press,… Read more »
Sean Sheff, M.D.: “The apostles practiced the signs in open public to give authority to GOD, not closed churches where believers prophecy to and speak in tongues to themselves. If the modern American Church is really displaying miraculous signs, why do non believers not take note?” Well, um…. The self-supplied answer is reasonable: “My argument is because it is not real, and the world knows this. I spend a lot of time in the “educated” circles of doctors, scientists, nurses, and the world as my job and training have demanded, and I can tell you they are not looking at… Read more »
I don’t think that it is the case that non-believers are scoffing at charismatics as being foolish – and this can be born out by global statistics in regard to conversion growth worldwide. While we are playing our little transfer church growth games here in the West – and, overall, losing, Christian growth is exploding in South America, Africa, China and other parts of Asia. The problem is that this whole issue of cessationism and continuation of Spiritual gifts is such a parochial issue limited in scope and outlook to a minority part of the the American church. The center… Read more »
Ken Polsley, how are you doing, sir? And where on God’s green earth are you these days?
Dave, I’m in Jacksonville, FL now. I’m the librarian and doctoral student at a place called the Institute for Worship Studies – started a while back by Robert Webber. I miss you guys – you were my fave Iowa pastor, because I believed you still had a jump shot. I’m also a volunteer prayer minister for Christian Healing Ministries (my wife is on staff) which is why I’m probably weighing in on this subject. My prayer experiences at the University of Iowa hospitals and a course I took at Wheaton kind of led me in this direction. I still have… Read more »
Clearly, your judgment is as jaded as ever, but I’m glad to hear that things are good for you.
I’m way out on Iowa’s left coast now, but if you are ever winging your way through Sioux City (headed to Mt. Rushmore or something) I’ll buy lunch.
Actually, I’ll be just south of Jacksonville at Christmas, but its a family reunion, so I’ll be tied up.
but its a family reunion, so I’ll be tied up.
So *that’s* what they do with you.
Are you like the president of the Iowa Convention now? I knew that you moved to a big church in Sioux City – you did that before I left Iowa City. I’ve only been down here for two and a half years. I kind of follow you through the grapevine – probably twisted information. I get back to Iowa two times a year – to the farmstead in SW Iowa, and then to Iowa City. I’ll follow you more closely, maybe we’ll be passing through Des Moines at the same time or something and I’ll wave at you.
My church isn’t all that big. My involvement at BCI is minimal and likely to become more so. It’s good to catch up!
That’s surprising to me. Why? Why is this comment in blue? I’m still trying to figure out how your website works. I’ll try to be judicious and probably scarce in chipping in my two cents. For one thing I don’t have much discretionary time, and more to the point – I wouldn’t want to tarnish your image. You unfortunately have burned your best excuse – that you don’t know who I am. I really do admire how you graciously facilitate discussions and promote civility in these testy family disputes. I’ve saved your site to my favorites – which means I’ll… Read more »
He’s the Pope of Iowa Baptists. He just doesn’t know it yet.
If you only knew how NOT true that is.
I heard you had your own funny hat, as well as a distinctive vehicle to travel in.
Throw in the unique suit, and you can’t get more Baptist-y Popish than that.
Plus, you ex cathedra ended the use of smileys on the website.
If only that were true.
Rev. Ken, it’s worse than that. He’s the former 2nd VP of the SBC. That’s why his family has to tie him up for the holidays.
Rev. Polsley,
You are a great spokesperson for what you believe. You and I share similar, if not identical beliefs. I really appreciate the fact-as you have pointed out-that globally, continuationism is in the majority,and obviously accepted. Only in America is cessationism highly regarded, which by the way is where it originated as a system of doctrine(B. B. Warfield, Princeton). I appreciate your response here.
Warfield was just following Calvin, who was reacting to the Roman Catholic claim to have all the miracles, which, since Augustine, were mostly attached to shrines and relics. I can understand Calvin’s reaction. I am a fan of Calvin, but not in this instance. To say that certain gifts ended with the apostles was a huge overstep – one only has to read Origen, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Cyprian and the stories about Gregory Thaumaturgus from Gregory of Nyssa to know that if the gifts stopped with the Apostles, then nobody informed the Christians throughout the Mediterranean in the 3rd and… Read more »
Thanks, Wm. Dwight, but I share similar beliefs with everyone who has posted here. I am first and foremost a follower of Jesus Christ – this little exercise in friendly family debate is not to be compared to that shared identity.
Rev. Polsley, You are quite knowledgeable. I’ve read that BB Warfield developed his book and theology on cessationism in response to the Azusa Outpouring that as you know fan the flames of Pentecostalism globally. I’ve read Warfield’s book in cessationism. He does not reference Azusa. Azusa, as you know was at it’s height from 1905-1909. Warfield wrote his book ’bout 1918. Timing and growing influence/expansion of Pentecostalism might suggest a correlation between the two: Azusa & Warfield’s book. But do you know of any source or historical documents that literally connect the development & declaration of cessationism with Azusa? Thanks.… Read more »
Off hand, no. As far as I know, Augustine first put forward the argument for cessationism, but then retracted it based on his personal experiences, in a document called “Retractions.” Luther held to cessationism for a while in reaction to the Roman claim, until he was involved in the healing of Philipp Melanchthon – his theological right hand, so he retracted it too. Calvin continued to hold it – so it’s been around for quite a while. The argument which is not clearly found in the Bible, nor in Church history, does not depend on any particular miracle claims or… Read more »
THE GIFT OF TONGUES:
COMPARING THE CHURCH FATHERS WITH CONTEMPORARY PENTECOSTALISM
by Nathan Busenitz.
(NB: Will post this on the other thread by Pastor Barber as well)
Gentlemen, Thank you for you kind words, especially the criticisms. I may have gotten a little more “fired up” in my text than was my initial intent, and is something that I do struggle with in sinful pride. I absolutely do not want to put doubt that praying for the healing of a saint is something I am against or do not believe in. I have actually seen this form of intercession work wonders for believers and have produced results that are not explained by the natural process of a disease. I do pray with patients that are believers for… Read more »
That’s why when I tried to put in a smiley in my reply it didn’t work – There hasn’t been a Pope Dave, yet, but if he were pope, he would probably rename himself – Innocent – which would be ironic. Good doctor – we are pretty much on the same page. One thing that I avoid is the use of the word “sign” gifts. It is not a Biblical term. The New Testament does talk about “signs and wonders.” – for instance, “grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch our… Read more »
Sorry, I put my comment about Pope Dave, the first Pope Dave in history in the wrong place. So I’ll enlarge on it here. Popes don’t go with Old Testament names and because they have to change their names usually stick with historical precedent. Here are a few actual Pope names that might suit Dave: Hyginus, because every time I was around Dave it seemed like he was well bathed, perfumed and had above average minty breath. Urban – Sioux City is not a major city but it’s a city, at least it’s got City in it’s name – so… Read more »
If Dave were truly to become Pope, I think he’d choose to be Pope Mariano, or perhaps some other Yankee. Maybe even Pope George, after the boss man himself.
Thanks for the article. I am reading through Strange Fire transcripts and so far have only read Phil Johnson’s. I am not a 4 or 5 point calvinist or cessationist but have always respected MacArthur despite our theological differences. I am deeply grieved by what I have read thus far. I wholeheartedly agree that the WoF movement and New Apostolic Reformation people he mentions are not biblical and their teachings should be called out. However, painting all charismatics with a broad brush and asserting that non-cessationists are unsound is divisive and destructive to the Body of Christ. The conference so… Read more »
Jen,
Might I suggest that you read JM’s book before jumping to conclusions about him or his positions on this issue….it so common these days for people to refuse to read the book for reasons of some sort of principle…but even without that modicum of research are not abashed in joining choruses of boo birds, many of whom also have not read the book but only cleverly edited snipits on you-tube or selective sections of a talk or the book (using of course a ‘book review’ as the basis for the book text).
Hi Tarheel, Yes, I do intend to read his book, and I agree with you that people often draw conclusions without having a complete context. I knew before the conference that we(MacArthur and I) were not in agreement on everything, but that is ok with me. I respect his teachings overall and his ministry. As I stated in my post, I am referring to 2 of Phil Johnson’s sermons–I read both transcripts in total–Providence is Remarkable and Baby and the Bathwater. I also heard some of one of MacArthur’s sermons discussing all charismatics around the world–not just select ones. I… Read more »
Sounds fair to me.
🙂
I agree with John MacArthur on speaking in tongues for the most part. I believe it is not for this day and age. I believe the tongues that were spoken were intelligible languages. I do also believe there are many brothers and sisters in Christ in this movement. I think that many of them have gotten wrap up in this emotional experience. I also think there is not a perfect church to worship in on this earth. We are all have preconceived ideas about the church and the church doctrines. I know for myself, God through his word has helped… Read more »