I was recently invited to participate in a panel discussion on “The Bible and Homosexuality” at our local high school. The panel is being hosted by the Gay/Straight Alliance student group. Given the time constraints, I probably will not get to say everything you see here, but this is what I have prepared. Please be in prayer for me and these students as I share with them today.
Here are my prepared answers to their questions:
- Please introduce yourself and your background on this issue
My name is Todd Benkert. I am a pastor of Eastlake Baptist Church here in Merrillville. You may some of my kids who have attended MHS.
I hold an MDiv and PhD From Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.
I have been been thinking about this issue since I was nine years old.
My Dad left my mom 1979 for another man. He came out as a gay man in 1986 when I was 16 years old. Growing up, I spent a lot of time in the gay community and knew many gay men and women as my dad’s friends and partners.
My dad was a public school teacher in an era much less open to homosexuality that it is today. As a result, I was bullied in school for being a “faggot” though I myself am not gay and have never had same sex attraction.
During the AIDS crisis in the 80’s, I saw several of my Dad’s friends and lovers die within a 2 year period. I also saw how the society, including some Christians responded to that.
I have always believed the Bible and what it says about sex and sexuality – and I also have believed what the Bible says about salvation, about loving neighbor and about human dignity. My heart goes out to LGBT people and those who struggle with same sex attraction. I am also a strong advocate for foster kids, victims of sexual abuse, and racial reconciliation.
I am a blogger, if you google my name, I have blogged about these issues and about homosexuality and ministering the gospel to gay people.
- Please provide some background information regarding your denomination’s beliefs about homosexuality and the faith that you represent.
Southern Baptists, historically, are a people of the Bible. We would affirm what the Bible says both on the issues surrounding sexuality, and on how we are to treat one another.
One thing that Southern Baptists would have in common with most of you, and I assume those on the panel, is our belief in the human dignity and value of every person.
The Baptist Faith and Message states that “every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love.”
The basis for that belief comes from the first chapters of Genesis where it states that
“God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.”
The Bible speaks clearly about sex and sexuality as well as love for others, and being created in the image of God is the root of everything we believe about human dignity and human sexuality.
While our verbiage has changed as we’ve grown in understanding about same sex attraction (SSA) and gender dysphoria, Southern Baptists in both our doctrinal statement and in numerous resolutions spanning the past 40 years have consistently maintained two things:
- That we affirm the Bible’s view of human sexuality and gender, namely that God created us male and female and that God designed sex (and only approves of sex) between a man and a woman in the covenant of marriage. Any sexual activity outside that marriage covenant is sin.
- That we love all people, regardless of sexual orientation or sexual activity, and offer them as to every person the hope of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for their sins.
As an example, in two recent resolutions we stated
On Homosexuality
2010 – That we commend Southern Baptist efforts to engage in loving, redemptive ministry to homosexuals and encourage all Southern Baptists to consider how they might assist those struggling against same-sex attractions to find spiritual, sexual, and emotional wholeness in Christ.
2013 – That we declare our love in Christ for all young people regardless of their perceived sexual orientation, praying that God will bring all youth into a saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
On Transgenderism
2014 – That we extend love and compassion to those whose sexual self-understanding is shaped by a distressing conflict between their biological sex and their gender identity; That we love our transgender neighbors, seek their good always, welcome them to our churches and, as they repent and believe in Christ, receive them into church membership; and … That we regard our transgender neighbors as image-bearers of Almighty God and therefore condemn acts of abuse or bullying committed against them.
Resolution on Gay Marriage (2015):
RESOLVED, That Southern Baptists love our neighbors and extend respect in Christ’s name to all people, including those who may disagree with us about the definition of marriage and the public good.
My Christian Faith leads me to love others and to speak the truth to them about the gospel of Jesus Christ.
- What does the bible say about being in a same sex relationship?
There are many same sex relationships in the Bible that are commended and for which we are given examples and instruction: The relationship of a father and son, of brothers, of male friendship and intimacy, of fellow believers in the church. All of these same sex relationships are affirmed and commended.
I realize, however, that the question is asking about sexual relationships.
The Bible speaks POSITIVELY about sex ONLY in the context of heterosexual marriage. The Bible contains numerous positive references to sex and enjoying the sexual relationship in marriage, some of them explicit. Jesus himself commended marriage – quoting God’s purpose in creating marriage in Genesis 2.
In the Bible, any sexual activity outside the marriage covenant between a man and a woman is sin.
Described generally in the word translated “fornication” with specific condemnations for particular sexual acts including adultery, incest of various kinds, and gay sex (i.e., sex between persons of the same biological gender).
The specific texts referring to homosexuality include Rom 1, 1 Cor 6, Lev 18 & 20, 1 Tim 1 and Jude.
The Bible is clear that gay sex – any sexual activity between persons of the same gender – is only and always sin.
One quick statement about the Bible:
You kids are smart – if you read and study the Bible, you can figure out what it says and that it means what it says.
(This may be the most offensive thing I say today) 2 Tim 4 says that there will come a day when people reject the Words of God and instead gather teachers who tell them what they want to hear. If you’re SERIOUS about seeking God – ask God to reveal to you which message you are hearing is His truth and which messengers are just speaking what “itching ears” want to hear.
So if you want to reject the Bible, reject the Bible – but reject it on its own terms. Don’t dismiss passages with straw-man arguments without trying to understand really what it is saying.
If you want to accept the Bible, accept the Bible – but again, accept it for what it says not for what you want it to say or what you can twist it to say if you have a complex nuanced argument that rejects the actual words of Scripture.
- Does your church allow same-sex marriage? What biblical passages, if any, do you base this decision on?
No, we do not. Again, you go back to Genesis 2 where God established marriage and his creative purpose in marriage. Marriage is only ever described in the Bible as the union of a man and a woman. (A recognition, I might add, that has been seen by every human society, regardless of religious belief, throughout history until this present generation.)
Marriage is a foundational element in the flourishing of the human race through procreation – which can ONLY and always happens between 1 man and 1 woman
— Every person in this room (and in the world) is here because of one man and one woman.
— One of the purposes of marriage is to unite that man and that woman as the foundation of the human family.
Finally, we see in Ephesians 6, that marriage is a picture of the Gospel and the covenant relationship between Christ and His bride, the church. A picture seen in the marriage between a man and a woman.
- Do you or your denomination believe that homosexuality is a sin? And if you do believe it is a sin, what would your advice be to a youth who is dealing with attraction to the same sex?
I think it’s generally unhelpful, in our culture, to speak generically of “homosexuality” being a sin because often Christians and people who identify as LGBT mean different things by the term “homosexuality.”
Part of the problem is that the world equates sexual activity with same sex attraction (SSA) whereas the Bible does not. The word “homosexuality,” in our culture, includes TOGETHER sexual identity, same sex attraction, and the sex act itself. Thus, let me answer by being clear in my language.
I believe that gay sex is always sin (as is all sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman).
I believe that SSA may or may not be sin in and of itself depending on where it comes from and what you do with it (e.g., SSA may be a temptation you deal with or, if you harbor it, may become LUST which is a sin).
To a youth dealing with SSA (which would equally apply to heterosexual youth) I would say a lot of things, usually in a personal conversation and not a panel discussion, but our conversation would focus on three things:
- Do not buy into the culture’s insistence that you base your identity on your sexual desires. Your identity is not equal to your desires or what you do with your genitals. Your identity is who you are in Jesus Christ and the person he has created and shaped you to be
- Do not buy into the culture’s claim that every sexual desire must be acted upon. There are all kinds of desires that we have that should not be acted on and sexual desires should not be a special case.
- I believe that a person who experiences SSA attraction should pursue Christ and pursue holiness. I believe that God is able to change our desires and feelings, though he may not. Like in every counseling situation, I communicate that feelings often come last, after changes in beliefs and actions. (Feelings are the caboose to the train if you will).
Even if God does NOT change our desires, being a Christian means, for EVERY Christian, that we “Deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Jesus.” For the person who experiences SSA, denying self means, among other things, abstaining from gay sex.
- Does the bible specify anything about people who identify as transgender or do not conform to traditional gender roles?
The Bible only ever equates gender with biological gender. Going back to Genesis 2, God created us male and female. There are no other genders and there is no distinction between gender and biology.
The Bible does speak to preserving the distinguishing characteristics of Male/Female including gender roles, biblical masculinity and femininity, and sexual activity. God made men and women different and complementary beings.
My heart goes out to those suffering from gender confusion.
From a scientific perspective, I agree with Dr. Paul R. McHugh, the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, who rejects the new DSM V classification and puts gender dysphoria in the same category with the body dysmorphia of an anorexic. I personally would affirm the DSM V recommended treatments of psychotherapy and counseling, but REJECT cross-sex hormones, gender reassignment surgery, and social and legal transition to the desired gender as BAD SCIENCE and psychologically and spiritually harmful to persons suffering from gender dysphoria.
I would add that changing gender biologically is impossible – you might introduce a chemical imbalance through hormone therapy, mutilate your body to appear to be the opposite gender – but your DNA is settled and your gender identity (in God’s eyes) is biologically determined.
I would work with a youth or adult in a similar way as I did those with SSA, though I would recommend also seeing a Christian therapist or psychologist. My spiritual counsel would remind a person that our feelings are not necessarily sinful in and of themselves, however, a willful Rejection of one’s biological gender is a rejection of God and his creative purpose. God created you male or female and His design and desire for you is to be a who He created you (biologically) to be.
- In July 2015, Indiana’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act took effect. Where does religious freedom end and discrimination begin? Is there a difference between these too? If a belief is religion-based, can it ever be discrimination?
These are complex issues and ones that few have really thought through thoroughly on either side of the divide (including myself). In short, I would say that we need to balance the issue carefully.
Religious freedom in law is a legal protection of our religious conscience.
I believe that the government should protect all people from the kind of discrimination that says I will not provide a service to you because of who you are AND that the government should protect people’s religious conscience, particularly when being asked to participate in an activity that would violate that conscience.
Some issues are quite clear. Others, like the case of bakers and wedding photographers are more muddy. The question, in my opinion, centers on whether baking a wedding cake constitutes providing a service that should be available to all people or in actively participating in an event that would violate one’s conscience.
While I would tend to err on the side of religious liberty (for all religions, not just my own), I would also add that no government can force someone to violate one’s consequence. You make your own choices. Governments can and often do (and often do appropriately) apply legal consequences to one’s refusal to violate your conscience.
- What is some advice you would give to a youth who identifies as Christian who is coming out?
It depends on what you mean by “coming out.” Again, this goes back to the difference between sexual activity and SSA and our culture’s equating of the two.
For the person who wants to follow Christ, live within the biblical parameters of sexual expression, who wants to “come out” and share with others his struggles with SSA:
I would say that I love you and want to support you. That the church loves you and we will come along side you to help you grow in your walk with Christ, etc.
For the person who wants to “come out” by stating their intent to identify as a Christian while at the same time engaging in homosexual activity, homosexual relationships, or pursuing a gender identity other than their biological gender, I would say, as lovingly as possible:
You have to choose. Following Christ is incompatible with that choice to come out. That I love you and God loves you, he offers you salvation in Christ, but following Christ means that you must repent of sin and pursue holiness, including in the area of sexuality.
There’s a difference between struggling with sin and embracing sin.
- What is some advice you commonly give to parents who have a child who identifies as LBGTQ?
Simply, I would say to love them.
Sexual sins are no different than other sins of your children. Don’t give in to feelings of guilt or shame related to your child’s choices. And don’t reject your kids. Rather, embrace them as a person and as your beloved child without affirming their sinful choices.
Keep living your Christian life in your home in a way where the gospel is evident in your speech and your conduct. As you have opportunity, speak the truth in love. Pray for and look for those opportunities that God gives you to lovingly share Christ with them.
Trust that God’s Holy Spirit continues to be at work and pray that He will convict them of sin and draw them to Christ. In the meantime, love ’em, love ’em, love ’em, love ’em!
______
I am thankful for this opportunity to share the love of Christ and the truth of the Bible to public high school students. If you read this before 3:00pm central on Feb 3, please lift up a prayer for me. Pray especially for these students – that they would open to God’s truth and that the Holy Spirit would open their eyes and draw them to Christ.
Blessings,
Todd
This is quite well done – forget typos; they matter not.
As a founding member of Restored Hope Network, I can affirm that you position and how you’ve articulated it are in keeping with the official position of our network and of every member ministry. The reason that might matter to some is the RHN is the vast network of ministries that provide help and healing for those impacted by homosexuality and transgenderism.
Well done! I pray you will ample opportunity to share this loving and Biblically-accurate response.
Good stuff.
Hope the panel discussion allows for a cordial and respectful tone and talk on all sides.
This is so good. Will pray for you Todd as you participate. I hope you will report back how this goes. Very much a needed conversation.
Todd,
Very interesting perspective.
You should consider putting this in a handout for those who attend.
It’s probably too late to do so today,
but perhaps consider it in the future.
Also, it is possible to be so tactful and gracious, that people end up not knowing what we believe or what the Bible plainly says. Certainly not saying you have done this, or are doing this, just a reminder to us all.
David R. Brumbelow
I believe I clearly presented the gospel both during the panel and in my conversations with students after it ended.
Well done, Todd. Praying for your opportunity.
Well the panel went well — I was outnumbered 3 to 1 on the panel. One affirming Methodist pastor, a gay pastor from the Metropolitan Community Church, and youth pastor who was a transgender man (biologically female). The gay and transgender pastors were very cordial while the third was quite antagonistic toward my view and often wanted to immediately rebut what I said. The student audience of both gay and straight students was friendly and asked lots of great questions. I received applause from some of the Christian students after several of the remarks.
Immediately after the panel was over (which went overtime), I was swarmed by students, mostly gay, who wanted further clarification on my remarks or who asked additional questions. I was able to clearly share the gospel with these students.
All in all, it was an intense yet meaningful exchange. The gospel was proclaimed several times, both during the panel and in the after conversations — including the call to repent of homosexuality and pursue God’s holiness.
I am working on posting the audio on my personal blog and will post the link here as soon as I am able.
Thanks for all who prayed!
Thanks for the report, and your witness.
David R. Brumbelow
It is unfathomable to me that a church would hire a transgender person as a youth pastor.
Glad you were able to have this opportunity to show the love of Christ and share the truth of Christ.
She was actually the nicest person on the panel — her Baptist church removed her when she expressed a trans identity and began living as a man. She now serves in an “open and affirming” UCC congregation.
Jay sent gave me a hug after the panel and then sent me a nice note afterward thanking me for showing her kindness and respect even though we disagree.
Great job Todd,
I always find it interesting that the person who confesses and advances a position opposed to God’s standard, seems to overcome the basis for truth by acting “nice”. There is a lot to be said for gentleness and kindness.
Sheep’s clothing seems to be the vogue of the day when it comes to choosing what pleases our selfish desire first. It’s soft to the touch.
Great job, Todd. You represented your Lord and Savior well.
Here is the audio from the panel discussion:
http://www.behiswitnesses.com/homosexuality/
You should publish your comments in a booklet for dissemination to pastors, churches and those struggling with same sex attraction. Well done!
Todd,
I commend you on your attempt to teach on this issue. Although I think you have missed the mark, and quite badly.
The definition of a Christian marriage is narrowed to two Christians marrying, (a man and a woman). Any other type of marriage is not marriage, it’s only civil unions. This includes a man and a woman as well as same sex partners. We have to adhere to New Testament marriage, no other type will suffice.
The Apostle Paul and the other great writers under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, gives us the true definition of what marriage really is. I think the gay community can shoot holes in what you have written because you have used the word “marriage” generically in a way that applies to all marriages. I feel this is wrong and open to attack.
You have used the long standing definition of a generic marriage that the gay community has built a good defense against. We Christians, of course say they haven’t built a defense against marriage, but it’s not true.
Marco Rubio , a candidate for the GOP said he is against gay marriage even though he said they are born that way. That puts us Christians in a position of having to tell the truth what marriage really is. I think you have only told a half truth about marriage.
Todd, once again I commend you, but you are coming up short of the full truth. The gay community have many psychiatrists who agree with them.
These are my views as I understand what the bible is really saying about marriage. I would have loved to address the group you are about to speak to.
There is no generic marriage, there is just marriage. I defined marriage biblically. There is nowhere in the bible that defines marriage on the basis of faith in Christ or reserves marriage for those who are Christians. Marriage is a gift of God for all people and falls under common grace.
I’m not going to debate this point. We’ll just have to disagree. But I not think I have missed the mark at all.
Todd,
Yes, my friend we will have to disagree. The New Testament makes it clear what a marriage truly it is as plain as the nose on your face, as Paul was addressing the “church” at Corinth. Paul wasn’t addressing the whole lost world. He clearly gave rules for the church.
It might help your argument if you actually quoted scripture.
Jess,… if I am reading your comment correctly, I think you make an excellent point.
Marriage was launched by God at the inception of creating man and woman. That is the basis for marriage alone. The term Christian by some as added emphasis for those who follow Jesus as Lord and Savior. Yet, marriage is obtained and was instituted by God without one being born again.
As far as Marco… you stated “Marco Rubio , a candidate for the GOP said he is against gay marriage even though he said they are born that way. That puts us Christians in a position of having to tell the truth what marriage really is. I think you have only told a half truth about marriage.”
Marco, while a fairly ambiguous statement,…has spoken rightly. The “being born gay” is an individual comment, where Satan can and does absolutely convince someone that they must remain in sin. Being against “gay marriage” is consistent with God’s created order in relationship for man and woman. Being “born gay” is a manner of speaking that simply acknowledges that sin is present to persuade and lead a person ultimately out of God’s presence. A person that is “born gay” (inclined toward unGodly actions) can certainly be born again and escape the clutches of what makes the actions of “born gay” sinful; the act of degrading passion (Romans 1).
Todd seemed to cover that distinction.
Chris Johnson,
I would like to add that marriage began before the fall, when everything was still in a perfect state. This and the New testament is the true definition of marriage, not just any man or woman, and certainly not the gay community. All of these marriages are just unions of some sort, like civil unions.
A Christian marriage doesn’t take place until both the man and woman are Christians, or else it’s not a true marriage in God’s eyes.
Right, Chris – marriage is a common grace.
I do think though that Christian marriages are distinctive and that pastors ought only be involved in officiating those and perhaps we ought leave all legal unions to the state.
I know that many of my fellow pastors and Christians will strongly disagree with me there – but I think this is where we should have been along and certainly with the religious persecution that is arising and will only get worse – its likely where we will end up.
I am becoming more and more convinced that soon states will declare that all officiants who perform legal union/marriage ceremonies must “not discriminate” in the officiating of state sanctioned marriages. This will force many of us, who are convictional on the issue of man/woman marriage, to give up our officiant licenses and perform non legal religious ceremonies in addition to which the couple will have to seek state recognition of the union elsewhere.
God did not create and sanction marriage as a tax benefit.
Tarheel,
You hit the nail right on the head.
I also think the SBC should recognize marriages as one Christian man and one Christian woman who are dedicated to their Baptist church.
I know this may sound harsh, but if one is not active in their church how can they be active to God? By the meaning of the word “active,” I’m talking about being dedicated.
Jess, God works on the heart of men and women, and the woman or man that is born again should remain in the marriage to sanctify. Those in the church should support, and encourage him/her to remain faithful and the entire church should pray that God grant the unbelieving spouse grace, mercy, and light.
Jess,
How would the SBC go about doing that? I think it could get really messy. Would you suggest contractual agreements with guidelines, stipulations, and possible disciplinary measures? Would this mean an SBC church could not accept a marriage between, say a Baptist and a Methodist?
Would there be a resolution against pastors performing marriage ceremonies unless both parties sign statements of faith?
Tarheel, “God did not create and sanction marriage as a tax benefit”… nice little nugget!
Thanks. That’s a huge part of the issue, IMO. When we (the church) voluntarily linked religious ceremony with governmental sanction we brought much of this on ourselves.
We do the same thing with “tithing”.
Todd,
First Corinthians 7th chapter is a good place to start as Paul addresses the church not the lost world.
Todd,
Particular1y verse number one in the 7th chapter.
Where does the New Testament “define” marriage? Particularly, where (as you claim) does the New Testament define marriage as being only between a Christian man and a Christian woman? The very chapter you cite gives pastoral counsel for a believer who is married to an unbeliever.
Your argument and objection to my remarks is nonsensical.
Todd,
The chapter I gave you explains it very clearly. The chapter is just not about believer and non believer. Is about marriage and the church.
Todd, you know this, it’s not complicated.
This article gives a pretty good summary of marriage as a common grace and how civil marriage is indeed marriage in God’s eyes:
http://family.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/26434/~/a-christian-view-of-civil-marriage
Todd,
In my opinion we must use the bible and not an article. I suppose we will have to just disagree. You cannot have a Christian marriage unless two Christians marry. A preacher or a church wedding does not make a Christian marriage.
If you go back to my post and the context of this panel discussion (1) I do not ever mention “Christian” marriage at all, just marriage and (2) I am not speaking to a Christian audience.
Finding fault with me for quoting Genesis as the foundation of marriage and making the case that marriage was designed and purposed by God as being between a man and a woman — to an audience who asked why I do not support same-sex marriage — is astounding to me.
Todd,
I just think an audience should be told the whole truth and not jut part of it. Please don’t feel hard at me for disagreeing with you on this subject. I know you have good intentions.
Todd, remember the woman at the well, she had about five or six husbands, was her marriages approved by God? Of course they were not, she was a lost woman. Only God makes a marriage.
And, for the record, this article quotes numerous scriptures. So far, you have yet to quote a single bible verse.
Todd,
The article only has three bible verses in it, which supports my view of what the bible says about marriage. It contains a long explanation which is not accurate. We will have to just disagree.
Todd,
I gave you an entire chapter.
Which in no way supports any point you make. Could you exegete the passage to buttress your argument?
Interesting discussion…here’s a few thoughts:
1. “Christian marriage” could obviously only be between Christians. But scritpure describes marraige among non-believers, and uses the word marraige to do it. (Potipher had a wife, Pilate had “wife”…were they not married?).
2. 1 Cor. 7 itself has an example of a man who is married to an unbelieving wife, and the instruction is to stay married, don’t divorce, if they are willing to stay. Now, the wife becoming a believer may change it from being a “marraige” to now being a “christian marraige”, but it doesn’t change if from being a “non-marraige” to a “marraige.”
Jess, Andy is correct here. All of scripture, including OT and NT is consistent on the principle of marriage. Now, if you want to look at “brand names” for marriage, that is where you leave the scripture and move into group politics.
If you believe that God created marriage for believers only, then you simply disagree with the scriptures, and some delving into exclusive group politic about the subject.
Chris,
I think you and Andy are very wrong on this subject.
1. A carnal mind cannot be subject to the law of God.
2. There are different types of marriages, or unions, Godly and ungodly. A marriage that God approves of and a marriage that he doesn’t approve of. Remember in the O.T. when God told Israel to put away their wives. Now, if God is for all marriages as you say, he wouldn’t have told Israel to put away their wives.
3. The bible is always right.
Well, Jess, there is a “way too much” to cover here about the three points you posited. Every man is subject to God and His law. That is probably the first place to start.
Jess,
I agree that the Bible is always right. That’s why you are wrong on this. How do you answer Andy’s understanding of 1 Corinthians 7?
Jess, perhaps it would be constructive for us to set aside our internal dispute on the definition of marriage and return to the point of the post — giving an answer to the world and LGBT community about why we believe what we believe. So, let me ask you:
How would you, holding the view you do about Christian marriage, answer the question posed to the panelists? What would you say to convince the hearer of the biblical position and lead them to Christ?
“Does your church allow same-sex marriage? What biblical passages, if any, do you base this decision on?”
Todd,
1. No
2. Many of the same verses I gave you will suffice.
Todd, the audience or those who support gay marriage will be ready, and they will use scripture to defend themselves. I think my view of the scriptures will combat anything a gay person has to say about the subject.
I agree we should drop the debate.
Dave Miller
Please read verse number one, and verse number two in the seventh chapter. These following obligations and duties are to the church, and no one else. It’s plain English, Dave you cannot say these verses are to the whole world. The church at Corinth had questions about marriage and Paul answered them.
Jess,
Of course Paul instructs the Christians on how a marriage between Christians should be.
But as has been pointed out to you, the Bible in numerous places, in both the Old and New Testaments, has recognized marriage outside of the Christian [New T] or Israeli [Old T] communities.
If God call such unions marriage, who are you to call Him a liar?
And since I know that is not your desire, be humble and submit His Holy Word.
Mike,
That is a mighty shallow attempt! Lol
Jess,
Not shallow at all.
Nope.
Just plain and simple truth.
Jess,
After reading thru this it seems you have not answered any of the legitimate questions asked. You repeat yourself, but your conclusions are not convincing based on what you have so far presented. Instead of repeating conclusions and saying that one chapter is “enough” and that those who disagree “know better” – why don’t you spell it out and back up your conclusions with direct exegesis?
He prooftexts – that’s about it.
You realize that the Bible was written in Hebrew (and Aramaic) and Greek, not English, right?
…submit TO His Holy Word
I took only about five minutes to find scripture that no one on Voices can find. No where in the Bible does God give unbelievers the right to marry.
Here are only a few scriptures that relate to marriage and what God expects a marriage to be. Some of you have already pointed to Genesis so I will not even go there.
Second Corinthians 6:14
First Corinthians 15:33
Deuteronomy 7:3-4
Second Corinthians 6:15
Malachi 2:10-12
Nehemiah 13:23-29
I repeat, no where does God give the lost world permission to marry one another, it will not and cannot be a Godly marriage and one that God instituted.
With the verses I gave you yesterday with these verses it’s overwhelming proof that when the lot marry it cannot please God. The carnal mind is “not” subject to the law of God and the bible goes on to say that that a carnal mind “cannot” be subject to the law of God. If you cannot see the truth now, may God help you.
Should be, when the lost marry.
Listing verses is not exegesis.
Exegesis means “showing your work.” Demonstrate how you arrived at your conclusions – which responsible expositors and Bible scholars DO NOT agree with.
You may not believe this, but “Jess said it” is not enough for most of us. We need to see biblical evidence, responsibly exegeted. You have given none of that.
You pontificate and give no room for disagreement. But you have no scriptural support. That will remain the accepted view until you show some biblical EVIDENCE – beyond listing verses and giving your opinions. That’s not exegesis and it’s not evidence.
I’m trying to convince lost people of the truth and hope of the gospel by showing them the truth about God’s design and purpose in marriage. What hope is there in giving people some theory about marriage that is neither supported by scripture or any rational argument? Even if you were right about marriage (which you are not) your remarks do nothing to convince anyone or persuade them to follow Christ.
The entire purpose of my remarks and the the way I presented them is to try to explain the biblical position, show how it is rooted in God’s creative purposes and love for us, and persuade hearers to believe the truth and turn to Christ.
Todd,
I’m not trying to find fault in what you are doing. I’m sure you are teaching to the best of your ability. I just happen to have a different view of who marriage applies to according to the overwhelming proof the bible teaches about it.
I wish you the best.
Dave Miller,
I’ve given you the bible and what it says about marriage. I’m sorry your school didn’t teach you the truth, and I’m sorry you are not independent enough to think on your own.
If Jesus said to love one another, love your neighbor as yourself, and love your brother, I do “not” have to have an exegesis to understand that Jesus want’s us to love our fellow man.
You are just being silly. hat God says about marriage is the way it is, and I cannot do anything about it. I cannot understand your fear of the truth, maybe it’s because you were not taught that way. Well, I was taught to be an independent thinker and pray for the understanding of God’s word. Exegesis, laughing out loud, come on, get real, I believe in the inerrancy of scripture. Sorry, but what God says is final, you cannot add to it or take away from it.
If one cannot spend time on their knees for their education they are not educated at all. Wisdom comes from God, so does our faith, or do I need an exegesis for that too. Lol
Dave, I would like to point out that I do not follow bible scholars, or “responsible” expositors. I never have and never will follow man. One bible scholar will say one thing and another will say something else. I’ll just stick with believing God through his word. I have never had to answer to any man, and I’m too old to start now, but I will believe God.
Jess, I can see why you may have come to suggest that non-believers slip under God’s radar (law)….since you read the KJV on Romans 8 that renders a general meaning of the context of the passage, easily taken in the wrong direction. Other translations do a much better job of handling the original language with more accuracy and clarity.
I think we can all agree that Jesus possesses sovereignty over all men (1000’s of passages attest), both those who rebel and those who submit and serve. Every person is responsible for obeying what the King of Kings commands in every facet of life, including marriage. Those who deny Jesus’ jurisdiction over the non-saint’s marrying and divorcing must decide how He can have all authority without having all authority!
Jess, your teaching on this subject puts your listeners in a compromising position about God’s sovereign will over man, woman, and relationships… and its possibly based upon a poor understanding of Romans 8:7, in which you seem to twist a general translation to fit your pre-conceived tradition. There is just one meaning to that passage though.
Chris Johnson,
I fond a wonderful little site pertaining to, Should Christian’s date o marry non-Christians.
http://www.revelation.co/…/does-the-bible-say-should-christians-marry-non-ch...
I will not offer anymore proof, it’s evidently useless here on Voices. Especially when no one here has offered any proof for their case.
This site clearly shows that marriage does not apply to nonbelievers.
The address doesn’t show up for me. Chris you can go there by simply googling Should Christians marry non Christians?
So, If I can summarize your argument:
A. The Bible says a Christian should not marry a non-Christian, therefore…
B. Any marriage that is not between two Christians is not marriage.
C. The fact that the Bible in multiple places calls those other unions marriage is irrelevant to point B.
Jess, you need to stop playing that game. It is not manly, not Christian.
You come on here and make absolute pronouncements without evidence. When challenged, you pout and resort to insults like this. We believe what the Bible teaches. All you have to do is show us that the Bible teaches what you are saying. Give us evidence. Your opinion is not evidence.
YOU are making the assertion. Show us the evidence for your assertion and we will respond. But don’t “take your ball and go home” because we don’t all recognize your opinions as authoritative. That’s not how Christian men relate.
By the way, every one of us here, I would think, believes that the Bible discourages or commands against being “unequally yoked” with unbelievers, and that this principle from Corinthians would apply to marriage. In 1 Corinthians 7, Paul clearly commands that a Christian, in he or she marries, should marry another believer. No one disputes that. You seem to be asserting something beyond that – that only the marriage of believers is somehow recognized by God.
Please show your work on that one.
Chris I think it is very important for you to read 6-9 and not just the 8th verse you referenced.
“For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”
Jess, you are making my point about this scripture as the context expands to show the meaning of “subject”. All men/women are under the authority of God. There is not one that is not “subject” to him whether they ultimately spend eternity in Hell, or whether they are in the Kingdom. All creation is under the sovereign authority of God and His law. Now,… a lost man will not “subject” himself (he, not God), nor can he subject himself, yet he is entirely under God’s law (subject to His law) regardless. He (the lost man) simply can’t see it. Yet, it does not change the reality of his subjection.
This passage is simply helping us understand how utterly dependent we are on God, and how blessed the mind that is set on the Spirit truly is…. The lost man is without hope because he (the lost man) is under the authority of God, completely subject to God and His wrath.
Todd,
I do not deny there was some sort of commitment, but did not fit God’s definition of marriage. There is a legal marriage and there is a spiritual marriage. Only a spiritual marriage is the only one that God approves of. A spiritual marriage should be made legal according to the laws of the land.
Then I did summarize your argument correctly. Thanks for the affirmation.
Todd,
Please google what I mentioned above. The site is a little more eloquent than I.
“In my opinion we must use the bible and not an article. I suppose we will have to just disagree.”
— Jess
Please give SOME exegesis to back up your opinions, Jess. It sounds more like Mormonism than biblical Christianity.
Dave,
Who knows, I might be a Mormon.
Jess, all we are asking for is biblical support for your opinions. Personal insults against me do not count. Scripture counts.
Last chance.
Jess, is God’s commandment “Thou shalt not commit adultery” directed to Christian’s only?
Robert Vaughn,
All the commands are directed toward God’s people. The only one of the original commands we do not have to keep is, Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Today we have the Christian Sabbath which is the first day of the week and not the last day of the week.
As to your question, You are a smart fellow, I know you can figure it out. I will say this, no matter the sin unbelievers commit, big or small doesn’t matter. All unbelievers will go to hell.
Jess,
God has given His Law to all people. He has written the works of it on their hearts. Romans 2:
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them…
So when you say this:
“All the commands are directed toward God’s people.”
You are mis-communicating and leaving the truth behind.
Later, in the next chapter we read:
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
EVERY mouth. ALL the world.
Jess,
So Jess, you are a smart guy, you can figure it out, but I’ll save you the time and tell you…
Why do unbelievers go to Hell?
BECAUSE they broke God’s Law.
I thought this post from Desiring God is helpful and goes along with what I was trying to communicate to the students:
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/love-letter-to-a-lesbian