As I spend time in the SBC, at meetings and conventions and gatherings, I have noticed a trend. We are getting to be a negative, pessimistic and critical group of people. We grumble and gripe and complain and whine and pick and poke. We criticize each other, we criticize churches and pastors and theologies and books and teachers and leaders. We point out where everyone else falls short, where everyone else is wrong and how we are doing it better. Sunday School guys don’t like the Small Group guys, Small Group guys don’t think Sunday School works anymore. The home church guys don’t like anything that is done in the traditional church.
My question and concern is where does all this bitterness come from? Why can’t we support each other and encourage each other? Why do we have to destroy each other because of our theology or philosophy? We rip holes in NAMB, we tear apart Lifeway and we gripe about the IMB, forgetting this is part of our SBC family. The Mega-churches don’t value the little churches, the little churches resent the mega-churches.
What about “do everything without complaining and arguing” Phil 2:14. We seem to ignore that, and we know esteem each other highers than ourselves, we don’t consider and love one another. We just take bites at each other. I don’t know about the rest of you guys, but I am really tired of all the negativity all the time. It’s no wonder we are shrinking, if Jesus said they will know us by our love, what does the world see? We don’t like the group we belong too, why would they want to join us?
Sure, I know that blogs have to be controversial, or no one will read them. I know that we have differences in opinion and don’t always agree, but can’t we do it with love and grace? We seem to want to draw blood so much, it’s starting to bring me down.
You mean rejoice that Christ is preached, even if some of the preachers are motivated by envy or ambition?
And only really get aggravated if Christ is ignored?
Crazy idea. Absolutely foolish.
Where do I sign up?
“DO EVERYTHING without complaining and arguing” Phil 2:14.
Usually, it is the people DOING with their heart in the right place that seem not to complain or argue. The complainers and arguers have done the work with the wrong heart and no faith and failed. That may be why they complain and argue, because their works were empty. Christianity isn’t based upon methodology, it is based upon faith. Complaining and arguing are symptoms of a faithless walk.
“Where do wars and fights [come] from among you? Do [they] not [come] from your [desires for] pleasure that war in your members?You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend [it] on your pleasures.” James 4:1-3
The formula is simple. If we fail, it is not God’s fault. We must do a self-examination knowing that it is me.
“We must do a self-examination knowing that it is me.”
Right.
It doesn’t have to be that way. I just left our executive board meeting in Indiana and was blessed. We spent a significant amount of time in prayer for our leadership, the lost, and for each other. We have a very diverse group of men and women and plenty of push-back and discussion of important issues, but I think everyone left uplifted, challenged, and unified — and that’s the norm.
“Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!”
Dan,
This was thrown out leading up to and during the CR, too. It is a typical lament on both sides when there is serious disagreement. Disagreement is an opportunity to dig deeper and discuss ideas….but it is much easier to label people as bitter or just negative. And it works. Most people don’t want to be labeled like that so they shut up and go along with that which they would rather question. And people tend to focus on the style of disagreement rather than the content. (“I don’t like the way you said that” or “I cannot answer you because of your tone” or “you are sinning by questioning”) Ad hominem seems to carry the day and is the communication mode accepted.
Food for thought:
Negative can be a positive thing (Insulting the Pharisees)
Positive can be a negative thing ( Norman Vincent Peale type of thinking and where it leads)
I think Dan is right that we are unnecessarily divisive. There are certainly important issues to discuss with one another, but too often, negativity and tone keep us from really solving problems and finding common ground.
“A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.” I have observed this in nearly every relationship. There may be a time for strong language, but I do not believe that the kind of issues we are dealing with here qualify — especially given that we are dealing with fellow Christian brothers and sisters.
“There may be a time for strong language,…”
There is no “may” to it.
“A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger” is to be taken in context. Sometimes “wrath” has to be turned away with a sword.
Dan,
I agree with you that we shouldnt be complainers, whiners, and negative, mean people.
And, Lydia throws some great insight onto what you wrote.
David
PS. I have found that a lot of people will call you negative, mean, and angry IF you dont agree with them….if you just dont see it like they do…if you just call their hand on something that’s not right…
PSS. Also, when people make huge changes to things that you already liked the way it was, and you speak up about not liking the changes; then you’ll be labeled as mean, narrow, negative, traditional, Pharisee, etc, etc, etc. Whenever the reality is that you just didnt agree that the changes needed to be made, and you might not even like the changes that were made.
“I have found that a lot of people will call you negative, mean, and angry IF you dont agree with them….if you just dont see it like they do…if you just call their hand on something that’s not right…”
A true statement indeed.
“Positive can be a negative thing ( Norman Vincent Peale type of thinking and where it leads)”
I find Peale “appalling” and Paul “appealing.”
CB,
Amen, Brother. And, in the name of being more civil and nice, may I say what a fine hat you have on in your profile pic.
🙂
David
It is a fine hat indeed. That is because it is a SABANATION hat. The superior hat of all hats. All other hats are of an inferior quality. Although I will admit that any SEC hat is better than a BUZZARD-EYE hat and a Braves cap is better than a NY Yankees cap.
Sorry. I should have added that a Braves cap is also better than a Cardinals cap.
Now, see…I tried to be nice to CB, and look at what he does!!!!!!!!!!! He degrades my Cardinals….tisk, tisk.
🙂
CB is liberal and a heretic.
And possibly a Democrat. (Sorry, that is over the line, isn’t it?)
I will agree that sometimes you have to take a stand. But the relentless negativity, sarcasm, character assault and such that have been in evidence on this blog and others does not advance the cause of Christ.
I am constantly amazed at the effort at some to blame the works of the flesh on the power of the Spirit.
What I have seen in SBC life the last 25 years is the end justify the means. Leaders like Patterson, Mohler, etc who slander others to get themselves in positions of power, how they got there justifies the end. No one holds them accountable because of what they have obvious done to so many people who stand up to them. Wonder why SBC’s baptisms are the lowest point in 25 years? Why SWBTS registration is greatly declining in numbers? Why GenY just thinks men like Patterson are just demagods with unrivaled egos (see wild game hunts)? I predict we will not see a present day SBC in 20 years due to his terrible, immoral leadership.
Don’t get me wrong, I believe the Bible is without error. I am very conservative in theology but liberal with people. There is a difference. I have personally seen friends of mine malevolently treated by Patterson and it causes doubts to those who support his continued leadership. I belief is he is only in power because of the fear people have of him and what he would do to them if they opposed him. Scary.
John,
Have you ever spoken personally with Paige Patterson or Al Mohler?
Have you lived next door to either one of them? What is your personal association with either one of these men that gives you this insight?
cb scott – I’ve heard that Paige Patterson won’t reply or answer any of your communications with him . Why would that be ? Did you live close ? Work close ?
Jack Wolford,
Since 1980, in my case, Paige Patterson has responded to every letter, every phone call, every email, and every knock on his home or office door as I have to his.
I have never been given the privilege of living next door to either Dr Patterson or Dr Mohler and have only met them as they were speakers at SWBTS when I was a student. My parents have dined alone with Dr. Patterson and gained the same impression as i have. I have seen his imprint on SWBTS which I dearly love. I strongly disagree with his actions but even more so, the spirit he goes about his power. I had a dear friend whose passion is missions. She wrote Dr Patterson in 2000 about how she felt his sermon in chapel at SWBTS was inappropriate. He wrote the IMB requesting they reject her.. I have seen the evidence and fruit of his leadership: all time lows of SBC baptisms, great decreases in ATS reports for enrollments at SWBTS since I graduated in 2001, firing of all the women profs at SWBTS, closing of the licensed counseling department, closing of the daycare, all time lows in Convention attendance, great divisions and polarization of a once great SBC, etc. As a young minister, I believe the once great SBC has been wrecked due to the extreme egos and lust for power of a small group of men. It is very sad. My prayers are for very the good men and great leaders Bryant Wright, Frank Page, etc. I pray they make major changes.
John, whatever issues you have with Dr. Patterson, I do not think this is the forum at which to air them. Please refrain from posting any more of these personal complaints about Dr. Patterson.
From John’s comment and your reply, DAVID,
is there any ‘disconnect’ in the SBC between those who support the works of Patterson,
and those who support the work of men like ‘Bryant Wright, Frank Page, etc.’ ?
Or not?
OK Dave,
I shall pull back the dogs, but only because you don’t want a blood war here on this thread. But I must at least say:
John, you don’t know diddley about Paige Patterson, Al Mohler, Frank Paige or Bryant Wright. To place the woes of the SBC at the feet of one man is irrational.
I have no real idea what you are talking about.
I’m actually not a huge fan of Dr. Patterson, but this is not the place to discuss whatever hostilities exist – John’s against Dr. Patterson or yours against other SBC leaders and bloggers.
This subject has ended.
I’m just not sure why anyone would think it was appropriate to come on a blog that has nothing to do with Dr. Patterson and start lobbing bombs at him.
I should have deleted the comments, but that ship has sailed.
This is not a “What I think about Paige Patterson” forum.
“I know that blogs have to be controversial, or no one will read them.”
This is a very sad statement. Sad because it is mostly true. I guess at the end of the day it calls us to consider why we are blogging. I find it ironic that many of us that decry “seeker-sensitive” approaches in church to grow our numbers do that very same thing on our blogs.
As for me I’ve resolved to just keep painfully plodding away hoping to be faithful to the gospel. I want to write in such a way that Christ is the only boast of my generation. I’m going to work hard, write as well as I can, try to proclaim the gospel in all issues, edify the body, and if the Lord sees fit to increase numbers then so be it.
John Wesley once quipped, “set a man on fire and the world will come and watch him burn”. That was lived out with George Whitefield when Ben Franklin said that even though he didn’t believe what Whitefield was saying he knew Whitefield did and that’s why he went to hear his sermons.
I guess there are some things people will always come and see: A good fight and a man on fire are two of them. I’d rather be the man on fire (metaphorically of course).
“I’m not interested to know if you can set the Thames on fire. What I want to know is this: If i picked you up by the scruff of the neck and dropped you into the Thames, would it sizzle?”
I want to sizzle….
Mike,
Amen!
David
“I know that blogs have to be controversial, or no one will read them.”
Dave could speak to this better than I, but I’m not sure that is actually accurate. It is certainly true that controversial posts generate more comments, but comments are not an accurate indicator of how many have read the post.
If a topic is currently in the news and generating searches, then the articles tend to get more hits — whether or not the topic is controversial. Conversely, controversial posts that are not the current buzz may receive fewer hits than less controversial posts that correspond to the current news cycle.
Also, quality blogs get a regular readership that is high on a daily bases and then see spikes during certain “news” cycles — regardless of the position taken in the post.
Hope that is helpful — Dave, feel free to comment as you can speak more specifically to SBC Voices as our moderator.
I know that I have written stuff that was more “devotional” and hits were down. When I say “learn to exegete” or drop the “C” bomb, or we talk about stuff that is controversial, hits go through the roof. It’s not just the liberal media that uses controversy to sell.
If you look at the top 50 or so posts from this year at SBC Voices a larger percentage of them are controversial or something that is breaking news (certain videos).
But that is probably not an accurate depiction of who actually reads the articles. Comments are going to generate more traffic because of clicking on the link to make the comment. Plus, there are probably numerous times that people do not actually read the article but just follow the fight…errr, comment stream.
But I agree that there are many very quality blogs that get plenty of hits. You don’t have to sell controversy or host a fight to get traffic.
That is a good point, Mike.
I think after a couple of dozen comments, few are actually reading the article anymore, but only responding to comments. That is often when things go wacky as well.
And I would address this in substance as well. There are two major themes in our posts here. First, we are “SBC” Voices, so when something is going on in the SBC, we try to deal with it. We talk about NAMB and TGP and GCR and GCB and any number of acronyms – when its an issue in the SBC, we talk about it.
Those are usually are hot topics in terms of page views and comments.
But we also publish theological, devotional and spiritual posts – some of which I think are our best posts – which often get fewer page views and comments.
I don’t know how many reads a post actually gets. We measure page views – but as far as I know, there is no distinguishing between those who read the post and those who peruse the comments.
My hope is that we will balance between well-written SBC topics and well-written devotional topics.
This was a good example of a ‘spiritual post’, DAVID:
https://sbcvoices.com/i-have-a-gospel-problem/
I don’t think the SBC has cancer. I think the SBC just has people.
There seem to be several cures for cancer today if detected early.
There will always be only one cure for people and it seems that many reject it.
I use the word cancer because cancer is part of the body that begins to consume and destroy other parts. When we have something in our body that begins to eat and destroy other people, it looks like cancer. Much of the negativity I think destroys us from the inside.
This has been happening and a reason people are leaving as the places they go , organizations they enjoy as well as schools they attend as well as the way they draw their paycheck which supports the church – is bitterly criticized . When people are attacked they fight back on blogs , in church if still there and in person in Sunday School if someone believes the Jews killed Christ. We have lost control of ourselves , our theology and we think it’s O.K. – because we’re “right” , correct and doing the ” Christian thing ” When someone visits from a church and says they don’t like public schools and some portion of that households money is from that source , and they are in their 60’s – they are off base, out of order, rude and will sink that church regardless of what respect the SBC thinks Homeschooling should get. I won’t fight it any longer . It’s not worth it . When I say that neo-Nazis , white supremacists and the attitudes that go with them are coming into our SBC churches to find anti- Obama support for the Wrong reasons – I’m asked for “proof” on this blog when the newspaper wrote it and law enforcement is a large part of this influence within the law of course – They have “rights” as well. Why try to win any argument when those that are remaining have their minds made up about my business and then want to include stuff about Driscoll , Calvinism which some , believe me , as much as you like it – most don’t want any part of it . Reasons are another thing. Some think they are “worldly ” , knowledgeable about Street Culture and so all knowing to be able to talk about this stuff . They’re not , you aren’t impressing anyone . I’m reading the book Seal Team Six – they’re tough – and know the wild side – and some go to some church – enough said. I’m not well educated at all – but I improved and mad something of myself by cultivating the truth and trying to make good choices . SBC going against ” Hate Crimes ” is an insult to intelligence of all except Richard Land and those that just want to argue for/against Obama , Republicans and stuff no one goes to church to learn about . What I’m telling you is real – and even now with homosexuality it’s causes and cures being examined , SBC has made up its mind . No question it’s an “abomination” – the Act is an abomination but two people living together sharing their predicament is not – in my humble opinion . CBF is just broaching the idea anew . Not all the facts are in . Don’t let some red necked bully take over this conversation . The End , I’m not checking anything I’ve written ! I’m buying a new firearm which I can’t do without . That makes me happy as well.
The Blogs are not the problem as the number of people on them is only a fraction of the thousands employed in religious enterprises who do beat these drums in the square – in public.
” What I’m telling you is real – and even now with homosexuality it’s causes and cures being examined , SBC has made up its mind . No question it’s an “abomination” – the Act is an abomination but two people living together sharing their predicament is not – in my humble opinion . CBF is just broaching the idea anew . Not all the facts are in .”
1). “…even now with homosexuality it’s causes and cures being examined…” Causes? Sin. Cures? There is only one cure. The new birth.
2). “…SBC has made up its mind…” The SBC has nothing about which to make up its mind. The SBC must either be obedient to God’s Word about the Sodomite lifestyle or be in rebellion. The Sodomite lifestyle is an “abomination” as you stated. Period.
3). “…but two people living together sharing their predicament is not – in my humble opinion” I really do not know what you mean here, but your humble opinion is wrong if you are stating that two people of the same sex can rightfully live together as marriage partners even if sexually inactive.
4). “CBF is just broaching the idea anew…” The CBF was, is, and always will be liberal. The CBF is the home of theological and biblical dwarfism.
5). “Not all the facts are in .” Wrong. All the facts are in.
I personally think it comes from basic insecurity in the individuals. We seem to have a need to be right, and if others don’t agree with us, they must be worng. And the more I can point out their errors, the better I’ll feel about myself. And the more people I can get on my side, the more right I must be.
Plus, we like to elevate all beliefs to the highest priority. We can’t just agree to disagree about secondary issues. Actually, some people have no secondary issues. They’re all primary ones.
John,
There’s a lot of truth in what you just said.
David
“We seem to have a need to be right, and if others don’t agree with us, they must be wrong.”
And sometimes we are just “right” and that is all there is to it.
Also, Dan, may I tell you what a great haircut you have. It looks very nice.
David 🙂
PS. Sorry, I just cant help myself. lol.
I sat by Dan at lunch yesterday and never even noticed his hair.
Dave,
May I say that you have a fine looking family, and that the hairstyle you have is not that bad.
David 🙂
That was because there was a mirror right behind him and you are taller than he is.
Why I oughta….
Jesus said if we’re to see the Kingdom of Heaven, we have to come to Him like little children. Maybe one of the causes in some people is, as the little boy who kept falling out of bed said: “Maybe I’m just sleeping too close to where I got in”.
Jesus prescribes unity, and the Bible says we’re too grow up into Him; that we’re all a part of ONE body (and you now what happens in your body when the body rejects part of itself); and that folks would identify us by the love we show for one another.
Maybe it’s not cancer. Maybe it’s a Spiritual vacuum.
And maybe that little boy needs a bigger bed.
You can sleep to close to the edge on the biggest bed ever made, too.
🙂
🙂
Call it a cancer, or a spiritual vacuum, or whatever, but I think that many of us realize that there is a growing problem of a negative, critical, spirit in our interactions that exhibits more of the works of the flesh than the fruit of the Spirit.
Alan Cross has written frequently of issues like this – which is why he is one of my favorite bloggers.
This is why I liked the GCR report – and the part that was largely overlooked in all the structural and financing controversies. At the root of the proposal was the idea that the many in the SBC have, at root, an issue with self-centeredness and a lack of passion for the work of Christ. David Platt’s sermon at the Pastor’s Conference was a long home run – its all about sacrifice and passion.
There is a spirit prevalent in the SBC, that I have observed often, that I believe God will not bless.
The number of people that favor Democrats or any huge issue would be a ” no brain-er” for a struggling entity . You can’t blow people away and plan to be a success . pat Robertson has already said Obama will win and has a chance of being one of the best presidents ever. I used him ,but, the writing is on the wall . I didn’t vote for Obama the last time either – I’m Independent as I can get . If he is elected in November , maybe someone within the SBC will then decide if they would like to slow the rhetoric and slowly bring people back into SBC churches . I’ve seen along with you , large companies roll over . SBC spends a huge amount of money every day and that’s the “cause” – not the religion. To say God will fix it if He wants to is a cop out and a lame excuse for not trying to correct a problem – financial or otherwise.
You can’t blow people away and plan to be a success
Ah, yes, but you can slice them up inside of their mother’s womb and pull the out a piece at a time, huh?
Anyone who claims to be a Christian and votes for pro-baby slaughter candidates is either delusional or too stupid to get out of the rain. On the other hand, Christians that vote for pro-life candidates have voted in keeping with biblical principals.
Right as rain Joe.
OK. Most of the time I do not explain myself when I do these things, but I think I will this time. I think I have well made Dan Barnes point. The truth is, he has written a good and truthful post. I just came a long and took up argument wherever it was available. That illustrates the cancer we are dealing with in SBC life.
What spurred me on today was something else entirely. On March 5 Dave Miller wrote an excellent article entitled, “Pro-Life in America: Someone Switched the Price Tags”
Yet, many took up an argument with him about the dog he used as a vehicle to make his point. I think that was just sad. And I think Dan Barnes is right. We have a cancer. Something is wrong. When men of God take up arms over a dog rather than to see the well made point of the sanctity of Human life, we have a problem. We have an enemy. And as Pogo said: “The enemy is us.” We seem to be doing the devils work for him…..and that is just stupid.
CB, the post contained more than a passing reference to his dog. If you are going to keep bringing up the dog, then I’ll keep bringing up the fact that his post seemed harsh and callous and did not–in my opinion–advance his point as far as it could have gone otherwise.
To suggest that makes me some kind of “cancer” in SBC life is a bit objectionable to me.
I personally in my own opinion (look at the name and descriptor for this blog) felt the tone of his illustration did not match the heart of his message. It was just my opinion–and one others seemed to see also.
My desire was not to be critical of Dave but to engage in an exchange of opinions. I don’t which to become Dave’s “Ditto-head,” or anybody else’s.
After the response I received I apologized because my post was taken poorly by someone who admits he does not like me. If I had known that ahead of time, I would not have written what I had written.
Unlike, cancer, I can be excised simply by Dave writing me an email and asking me to no longer post. I will immediately comply.
I don’t know anybody on this blog, personally, so I don’t want to be a “drive-by” shooter. Any part I have played in this cancer, I deeply regret.
However, it would be hard to read that post and not notice he dog–in my opinion. My opinion. One I still hold but would be very happy to let go if nobody else brings it up.
It was a bad choice of posts on my part, and I am truly sorry. I thought at the time it was appropriate. It was not and I apologize to Dave and I am determined to be more sensitive in the future.
Frank,
Do you eat cheeseburgers? or steak? Do you eat bacon?
David
Not as much since my heart attack last year. Why do you ask?
Any meal that requires the death of two different animals you know has to be tasty. Bacon Cheeseburgers are amazing!
Frank L. – Most if not all my comments about Dave’s dog were in jest after Dave complained . But that was no secret to anyone except we learn now – maybe cb & blavkmon . I can’t say it any clearer c b . The little projectile comes out of the front from the little hole . Don’t put finger in !
Frank L,
Several years ago a doctor tried to save a child’s life by using a Baboon’s heart. I think he actually used two Baboon’s hearts.
Of course, that meant the killing of some healthy Baboons to find a compatible heart.
A bunch of animal rights nuts protested the killing of baboons for the life of a human. That all happened during the time of Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority. I had been invited to preach at one of the Moral Majority rallies. During the sermon,
(BTW, the sermon was entitled: Thank God for Patrick Henry, Guts and Guns.)
I mentioned the story of the doctor trying to save the baby and using Baboon hearts. I stated that the animal rights protestors were a bunch of godless nuts and that if necessary, I would be willing to slaughter every baboon on the planet to save a human child.
I was amazed at how many people were offended by that statement. People who were supposed to be conservative and know that human beings are always superior in importance to animals. I am still amazed. Dave owns that dog. He can do with it as he wants. It is a dog. It is not a human being.
Actually, you are wrong about Dave’s sovereign power over his dog.
Following your logic, exactly how many children be saved by killing this dog?
How many children were saved with baboon’s hearts compared to the direct, measurable efforts of Jerry Falwell?
And I’d kill a baboon to save a baby. But, I was just down the road from that hospital. As I recall it ended in tragedy. Killing to save life is often not the best solution
Are you really arguing about Dave’s dog in my blog? Dave didn’t kill the dog, and it seems to me his post said at some point he will have to have it put down because of it’s age. What does a baboon heart have to do with grumbling pastors?
Dan,
I didn’t bring it up — twice. I simply don’t like the idea of being called a “cancer.” Sorry, if I’m over-sensitive about that.
Your comment to me about “grumbling pastors” within the context of this blog is interesting. If you look at some of my comments, I’m given praise because it appears I share enemies with certain people.
However, when I disagree with them, it is a totally different matter. I personally do not have any personal negative feelings about anybody that posts on this blog, including Debbie, whom I often disagree with.
I also don’t have an axe to grind with Calvinists, Non-Calvinists, Mohlerites, Pattersonians, CR, anti-CR, pro-Gospel Project, Anti-gospel Project, or any other issue that comes up regularly.
In fact, in the last two alcohol discussions, I stayed out because it simply covers the same ground over and over.
I’m neither pro-SBC, nor anti-SBC.
I’ve posted at least twice that I learn as much from my critics as I do those who share my positions.
I think CB’s point about the baboon heart was a point well made and I agree with the position he took. He brought it up, not me. I departed in agreement when he took a good argument and made it non-sequitor.
And, just for the record, I never advocated against the use of animals as a food source. I didn’t know Dave intended to eat his dog.
Sorry Dan. You can shoot me later.
Frank L,
Inform me as to how I am wrong about Dave having sovereign power over his dog.
You are right. The child who was given the baboon heart did, in the end die. Yet, I believe it was worth the effort to try and save the child. I believe one child is worth more than a million baboons.
Killing (the taking of one life to save another) to save life have very often been not just the best, but the only solution to save life.
Frank, I am more than willing to let you come and get my dog and take him for your own if it will stop the constant harping about him.
Frank, I was jesting brother, and we may eat Dave’s dog.
Dave, I already told Dan that since my heart attack I have cut back on my consumption of meat.
I promise I will not say one more word about “that living, breathing, cuddly entity” who goes by the legal name of Tubb with the descriptor, “formerly loved by.”
Frank,
The point is…animals are here on this planet for us to use…for meat, fur, milk, whatever. Killing an animal is not a sin against God. Torturing an animal is bad. But, killing a cow for a T bone steak and a Super Sonic Cheeseburger is not wrong.
Killing a dog, or a cat….in a humane way…is not wrong.
David
Vol stated:
“Killing an animal is not a sin against God. Torturing an animal is bad. But, killing a cow for a T bone steak and a Super Sonic Cheeseburger is not wrong.
Killing a dog, or a cat….in a humane way…is not wrong.”
That comment is biblically sound. It may not be politically correct in today’s nut driven world, but it is biblical.
Dave Miller,
You wrote an excellent article about the sanctity of human life. I appreciated it. Yet, I was amazed at the response. That article should have started a rally that lasted 500-600 comments to the affirmative. Dan Barnes is right. There is a cancer.
I have to admit, I was a little surprised about some of the response.
Yeah, me too.
CB and Dave,
I just added my 2 cents to that circus…wow.
David
People very seldom comment simply to agree. The reason the post didn’t get hundreds of comments is because there probably aren’t 5 people who comment on Voices who disagree with the article. Had Dave used a different illustration, I doubt that the post would have gotten nearly the 50ish comments that it did. It may be unfortunate, but preaching to the choir type posts don’t usually elicit a lot of comments.
Bill Mac,
In 1987 I presented a motion in the BSSB (Now LifeWay) Trustee meeting to put a Sanctify of Human Life lesson in all Sunday School curriculum on the third Sunday of January until RvW is overturned.
That Board of Trustees had 92 men and woman on it at that time. Most all were pastors of Southern Baptist churches. The motion failed. It took two years to get enough conservative pastors on that board for the motion to pass.
In addition, the administration fought the motion tooth and claw. The president of the BSSB, Lloyd Elder, led the charge against the motion.
Also, through the years on Baptist blogs, there have been many long comment threads debating the merits of ending abortion on demand.
The truth is that Southern Baptists had a bad track record in regard to the Sanctity of Human Life prior to the CR.
We actually approved abortion on demand in 1971 at the St. Louis SBC. Southern Baptists were basically silent in 1973 during RvW. We were pathetic.
The Sanctity of Human Life is one of the many (if not the best) reason we should thank God for the CR.
I agree.
Bill Mac, I am really impressed. That comment says in very few words what the heart of the matter is. A great summary.
Sorry, for posting when I agree.
Good grief. Dave, you got onto someone who judged the fact that we were talking about football instead of the Gospel 24/7. I think you are tending to do the same here along with CB. We agree, we don’t comment. I agree, I don’t always comment. Don’t judge the fact that some posts generate comments while others don’t by putting us in the “see they aren’t spiritual” column. I reject that kind of thought as you did in the football thread.
Debbie, I have no idea what you are talking about, but I never said anything about anyone being spiritual. I am not responsible for whatever misunderstandings you have of what I say.
“where does all this bitterness come from?”
from being afraid
L,’s,
If you are calling taking a stand for the unborn “bitterness,” I must state; No L’s, it is not bitterness to stand against the murder of the unborn.
Let’s see if anything has changed in the last four years L’s. Do you now stand against abortion on demand? Do you now see abortion as premeditated murder?
What about you Debbie? Has your position changed? Do you now consider abortion as premeditated murder? Have you stopped calling everyone who stands against abortion on demand a culture warrior and a hater?
The answers to those would be “No”, “No”, “No”, “No”, and “No”. 🙂
CB, let me say I probably am much closer to your view on abortion that what you seem to indicate is Debbie’s.
However, you said, “””Do you now consider abortion as premeditated murder?”””
If you really believe that–and I take you at your word–then do you think it is wrong to not use force to protect the innocent life you “know ahead of time” is going to be murdered?
You see, the “abortion equals murder” leaves one holding that position in a moral dilemma.
No it does not one holding a moral dilemma Frank. There is no moral dilemma.
Abortion is premeditated murder. Yet, if you are asking me if I support those who kill abortion doctors and blow up clinics, the answer is no. Those who do such also commit premeditated murder.
I did not suppose that you supported blowing up clinics.
However, if I knew someone heading to someone’s house to kill them with a gun, and I could not call the police, would I have a moral obligation to intervene with whatever force is necessary to protect the innocent.
While this is not a moral dilemma for you, it has been a moral dilemma for godly men and women throughout church history, though church history is admittedly not my strong suit.
This is also the same type of moral dilemma, it seems to me, that Bonheoffer struggled with in considering the plot to kill Hitler.
To me . . . though I think I agree with you, it seems somehow disingenuous to shout, “that is premeditated murder,” and not be willing to use whatever force is necessary to stop it. Again, I think Bonheoffer’s struggle is instructive in this regard.
I agonize over whether I am doing all I can to stop abortion.
Abortion is premeditated murder.
I am familiar with the situation of Bonhoeffer and others in dealing with Hitler. It is my opinion that they vacillated back and forth too long. They should have killed him when they realized the need for his death. Germany had some of the best snipers in the world during the Hitler era.
BTW, if I lived in your neighborhood and it became evident to me that a person was actively seeking to harm you or your family, I would make an effort to terminate the attempt by any means necessary. History and other individuals who read these blogs can verify that as fact.
Amen, CB. Abortion is cold blooded, 1st degree, premeditated murder of an innocent, little, helpless baby.
And really, our country is no better than Nazi Germany in murdering unwanted people. People who condemn Hitler, while okaying abortion, should apologize to Hitler and Nazi Germany for condemning them.
DAvid
I think you guys are misunderstanding Frank a little. I think it is true that we see abortion as murder in a different way than murder of the “already born.” I hate to say it but I think we do. If “already born” children were being murdered, even with the OK of the state, we would probably respond with more force than the way we respond to the murder of the unborn. I don’t know if I’m making myself clear.
Sorry, it looks like you guys addressed this further down. But I think the point is valid. We don’t intervene with violence to prevent abortions, but we probably would intervene with violence to prevent murder of the “already born”. Is that hypocrisy? I don’t know. But I think that is the dilemma Frank is talking about.
Bill Mac,
I would like for you to read my comment in #93. Tell me what you think.
Frank,
The moral problem here is, do we save the baby and give them the option to choose Christ or not or do we let the doctor martyr the baby to go to heaven? David was clear that Bathsheba’s first baby went to heaven. All we can do is stand by while the heathen do their work.
I fear the outcome of this statement from some here.
CB: Thank you and Joe for proving the point I made to Dave. 🙂
Martyr? The word is murder. Martyrdom cannot occur wherein the person being killed has no options. To kill the innocent is always murder.
Debbie,
You are welcome. Now maybe Dave will figure out the point you were making and inform us all as to what it was I helped you prove.
Martyr – is somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce, or accept, a belief or cause.
I think a baby has a right to that definition without conscience. Yes, it is premeditated murder, but it is also against an unconscious will. Babies, like everyone else, want to live.
Bruce H.,
You stated: “Martyr – is somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce, or accept, a belief or cause.”
Exactly right.
That is why I stated that for a doctor to abort a child is not to “martyr” the child as you stated. It is to “murder” the child. Martyrdom cannot occur wherein the person being killed has no options. To kill a child in his/her mother’s womb for no reason other than to get rid of the child is murder.
It is murder but there is a “cause” which, in my opinion, turns it into Martyrdom for the babies. It is a different kind of war than we are use to. I may have stated it wrong above by saying that doctors martyr babies. I do believe they are martyred since a cause has been established.
That’s fine Bruce H. Think as you will. Feel free to write your own definitions of words. Hey, what’s new with that, right?
“”” I would make an effort to terminate the attempt by any means necessary”””
CB, don’t doubt that for a minute. But, why do you not apply this thinking to abortion clinics?
I don’t personally have a satisfactory answer to that question which is why I wonder, “is it enough just to shout murderer?” Can we stem the tide of abortion through rhetoric alone? Should we do more? I struggle with this in my own life.
I would add . . . I have not seen shouting “murderer” to be very effective. I actually used this early on as a pro-life worker in Berkeley. As true as it is, it has not been an effective means (of itself) in saving many lives.
Young women in crisis have a tendency to run away from somebody shouting at them.
One possible solution might be to do more to put pressure on companies that help fund the the abortion industry. However, the Susan G. Komen defunding issue proves that those who take a stand pay a heavy price.
I believe is 45,000 plus SBC churches made a united effort to boycott and lobby for the unborn, there would be a turning of the tide.
“United.” That seems to be the problem.
Frank L.,
Think about this. An abortion clinic in this country is only operational because the laws of this nation allow it.
Frank, we are this nation–Frank, cb, Debbie, Dave, Bob H., Bob C., Vol, Doug, Dan, L’s, and on and on and you get the picture.
If we declare open and hostile war on the abortion clinic, the next step is to declare open and hostile war upon our selves. To do anything else is hypocrisy. Abortion on demand for social convenience is our national sin. We are all guilty.
BTW, I do not stand before abortion clinics and shout “murder.” I do not picket abortion clinics. I do not harass ignorant, poorly reared, poorly educated, used, and abused young women (or old women for that matter) who are going to abortion clinics. Let me be so bold as to say that for every woman who is making a trip to an abortion clinic there is a man somewhere who has failed in his accountability to be a man. That man may be the woman’s father, her husband, her boyfriend, her pimp or her john.
Frank, abortion in this country falls squarely at the feet of men who use and abuse women. Are women guilty? Of course they are. We are all accountable. Abortion is our national sin. We are a bloody people.
So Frank, I am not standing in the courtyard shouting murder. The place we should stand a shout murder is in front of a mirror. And if enough of God’s people will truly come to grips with what abortion really is, it will end in this country.
CB: I do agree with this.
CB: That is the most ridiculous and untrue statement about me you have made so far. I have always been against abortion. I have always voted against abortion. My stand is that stopping abortion through political means is not the answer and proof is the fact that it is still legal and how many Presidents were elected because they stood on the ole anti-abortion platform? And again, have the laws changed? It’s through the Gospel, Christ. It’s where our focus lies. Not in political agendas.
Hmmm, let’s see, what President voted to reverse the “Mexico City Policy” that prevented the US Government from funding family planning services to clinics or groups that offered abortion-related services overseas, even if funding for those activities came from non-government sources.
That would be your hero, the Obamassaiah. George Bush had reinstated that ban.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/International/story?id=6716958&page=1
And that’s just ONE proof that Obama and his putrid ilk are rabid supporters of baby murder. Therefore, no one has the right to call themselves a Christian who voted for Oh-Blah-blah.
Debbie,
Did God or man institute government?
BTW Debbie,
Thus far I have never made an untrue statement about you. Not one. if you can produce such a comment by substance, date and comment thread, I shall apologize. On the other hand, if I produce untrue comments you have made about me and several others will you apologize also?
if I produce untrue comments you have made about me and several others will you apologize also?
Oh she’s already proven she won’t.
I see nothing to apologize for, to either of you.
Debbie,
Tell us something we and anyone else who has been around Baptist blogs for a while does not already know. When you state, “I see nothing to apologize for” you are speaking truth. For “seeing” is not your strong suit.
No one with sense or an IQ above 40 would call standing against legalized murder “bitterness”. Again, when you take the correct, biblical stance on abortion (i.e. that it should be illegal–the same stance that Jesus would take), then you have the right to talk.
DAN, sorry I quoted your question without reference to you personally . . . the ‘short hand’ on blogs seems to be to quote someone’s words and then comment, with the quotation marks doing the referencing,
but in my case,
that led to some confusion on the part of others.
I take responsibility for their confusion.
You should also take responsiblity for the children that have been cut up inside of their mother’s womb so they could be extracted easier–since it’s you and your kind that have murdered them.
Of course, apologizing for that would involve having something called “character” and “honor” so…..well….
Be peaceful, L’s (snicker)
Christiane, I am not sure what question you quote. I am pretty clueless.
Oh, found it. It’s all good.
Hi DAN,
I’ll try to be more thoughtful, and more responsible in future.
Again, sorry.
Dan,
The more I have thought about your post today the more I am encouraged to continue to comment now. I love to comment and enjoy what others say. It always elevates my spirit when someone agrees and even disagrees the right way. I come to these blogs to learn and even add a different angle some time in hopes to promote discussion. I have been just reading for the past few days and cannot overcome making comments. For those who welcome me, fine, for the others, oh well, now we know what you are. 🙂
I’ve done some soul searching on this myself and have confessed my negative attitude to God and will keep future negatives in check.
Great and timely post.
Also, for those of you “unspoken ones” I lumped together for not openly correcting my opponents in previous comments, I apologize and repent to you most sincerely and ask for your forgiveness.
Thank you.
Bruce H – It’s been so peaceful since you’ve been away !
Jack – I’m so vain that I thought this post was written about me. There is a song that is similar. Thanks for your comment. Hope we can get back on track around here. 🙂
Dan – I think the criticism you are talking about is not an expulsion of criticism totally but knowing when it is a good time to stop.
“You know you’ve achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away.”
~ Antoine-Marie-Roger de Saint-Exupery
I have noticed that this isn’t limited to the blog world. The negativity has gone far beyond the blogosphere, and it exists in churches, associations, states and I am sure beyond. We like to gripe and complain in all areas.
I want to complain, gripe, and whine that Dave and I were not on this list…
http://money.msn.com/investing/the-worlds-top-billionaires-2012
I was hoping to make that this year.
Dave,
What was most surprising is that niether CB, nor Mike Leake made it, either. I mean, if anyone should have made it…
David
Oh no, I’m on there. My friends call me Slim….but you SBC types can just call me Carlos.
Wow, Carlos…what in the world do you do down there in Mexico to earn such moola?
David
Dan, in answer to your original question, where does all of this bitterness come from – the answer is change and people don’t like it and will fight it to the death. Just look at the Civil War which began in Charleston, SC, which was also the birthplace for Baptists in the South. You have to step back and look at the long view of the history of Southern Baptists and in the aftermath of the CR, there was a sense that the Convention was in addition to being more Biblically based, would simultaneously become more evangelistic. Remember, Jerry Falwell was invited to join the SBC during the most heated days of the CR in the 1980’s when every vote counted. Now, that the Moderates are no longer a threat, he is no longer needed and in a sense, his theological view is not exactly the rage at some seminaries, most notably Southern. Therefore, when people see efforts at making changes and they hear talk of the new Sunday School Curriculum at Lifeway and it sounds like it’s from a different theological perspective, there is going to be a blowback. Folks are going to say, “This isn’t the trip I signed up for.” They were expecting more Billy Graham, and not Francis Chan.
Keep in mind in the past, SB’s were somewhat isolated and from that isolation it was easier to have a more uniform theology when you couldn’t watch Joel Osteen, or Joyce Meyer on TV or go hear John Piper at a conference. As an example, my great grandparents couldn’t marry in a church because one was a Baptist and one was a Methodist.
Now, when old time SB’s hear that the term “Southern” has negative connotations and needs to be thrown into the scrapheap of history, is anyone really surprised that some folks might be offended and they may respond with criticism of those who are deriding the term southern and saying it carries baggage, most notable of racism.
The key, in my opinion, is to not get into the personal attacks while making one’s argument. It is healthy to have debate as long as it is about ideas and not the personalities involved. Those seeking to make changes shouldn’t act offended if everyone else isn’t as excited about making changes as they are.
The way people are acting about animals in our day and time is amazing. Animals are indeed being treated better than humans. To humanely kill a dog, or cat, which does not have an eternal soul, is seen as worse than abortion by too large of a segment of our society.
In a country, where you can be sent to jail for animal cruelty, but a baby can be savagely murdered in what’s supposed to be the safest place in all the world, its own mother’s womb, is very telling about how pathetic our society has become. Whenever you can go to prison for shooting an eagle, but get paid for murdering an innocent, little baby; then our society is warped.
I’m against cruelty towards animals, too. I think anyone, who would torture an animal should be held down, while we let fire ants crawl all over his body.
But, to kill an animal humanely is not wrong. Do you people eat cheeseburgers? Well, what do you think happens to that cow? Do you people eat fish sandwiches at McDonalds, or eat Talipia at your Mexican Restaurant? Well, guess what happens to that fish?
I’ll give you a hint….they dont die of natural causes.
David
I have read through most of the comments and the article here. It is interesting to read comments about those whose faith is weak and insecurity runs rampant and then there are those who demonstrate works of the flesh instead of works of the Spirit… I agree with all that… great stuff as long as we are using it as a gauge to our own attitudes as opposed to those of others.
David’s comment here #98 is especially relevant. It is true that folks seem resistant to change, especially when change is for the sake of change. I have been a SB for a long time; I pastored my first church in 1978. In all that time, I have never been engaged in a debate with respect to calvinism… not once until a couple years ago and then more so since June of 2010.
Why the change? My answer is simple. i had absolutely nothing to do with the calvinist influence of some of the seminaries, NAMB, the IMB, Lifeway or The Gospel Project. Not one iota of responsibility in any of that. I had no idea any of it was even taking place. As I began looking at things, I was not pleased with what I was seeing. I joined in the fray. The more I looked the less I liked. I was not looking to find things to complain about; I was looking at things that others were doing that I disagree with (that were not taking place just a few years ago) and so I began to speak up about what I was seeing and walla… I am the bad guy.
Well, those who have done a masterful job of engineering this calvinist resurgence knew this day was coming and to their credit, have done a superb job of keeping things to a low roar to this point and my hat is off to them.
I made a comment on my blog, will I sit down and shut up and take on for the team, well I may; depends on which team you are talking about. I am confident of one thing; I am 110% for a change in the BF&M; win, lose or draw I am ready for this one to go away and one take its place that sets a definite stage for the future.
Are things going to get worse before they get better, I am confident that they will but get better they will do for everyone involved. Is God honored in touch talk and tough decisions, maybe He is and maybe He is not. Are there folks on both sides of issues God loving and God fearing and Bible believing individuals, I believe there indeed are. God promises us all that “all things work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.” I believe God is indeed everything He says He is and that He will do everything He says He will do.
I believe that will be the case for each of our ministries and the future of the SBC. That is my sincerest prayer. Conflict is not always bad. It is tough but not always bad. All this has forced me to go to the grindstone and forge out in greater detail what I believe the Bible to say to me and for that I am eternally grateful.
To God be the glory, great things He has done and continues to do in unworthy vessels like me; I like Paul am the chief of sinners and the least of this group. I am grateful that God sees more in us than we are able to see in ourselves and He is able to gain the glory in the victories He allows us to be a part of.
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Why does it have to be us vs. them with you, Bob? Good guys vs. bad guys?
Couldn’t we work together as Calvinist Baptists and non-Calvinist Baptists to advance the gospel and do missions?
I just don’t understand the force of your anger and bitterness against Calvinists.
David, I echo your sentiments. I just don’t know why we need an enemy besides the Devil. I must confess–knowing I am no Christian hero–the Devil is more than enough enemy for me.
I remember when I was on a submarine. There were men that I really did not like and they did not like me. But, when you are cruising at 20 knots, at 200 feet in 36,000 feet of water, and any minute mistake will likely send you to Davey Jones Locker, you learn how to find common ground.
The only way someone can make an enemy out of a Calvinist (or vice versa) is to say they are not saved. I just don’t see the evidence to support that kind of attitude.
We have simply got to find a rallying point and that needs to be Jesus Christ and expanding His Kingdom.
For the record… I am not making enemies out of calvinists… It is one thing to disagree with calvinism and making enemies. I may not like what people say or do but my focus is on the theology and the influence of that theology in the SBC. That is it; period.
I have never said that calvinists are not saved; I have never said that calvinists do not belong in the SBC… I adamantly state that calvinism does not belong in every entity of the SBC and directing the future of the SBC.
That is MY OPINION and I will continue to voice it. I understand there are those who will not agree with me and do not like me making those statements. What is interesting is those same people feel that they have every right to be critical of me for being critical of them… go figure.
I dont cry when someone disagrees with me… I defend my position as best I can and move on. Most of the vilification that takes place is unfounded and unfair but that too is life.
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I guess your understanding is because you failed to pay ANY attention to WHAT I said… I had NOTHING to do with the changes that are taking place in the SBC and I do not like them, not even a little bit.
I do not believe that the Bible teaches God and God alone determines who will and will not be saved… I do not like that theological bend and do not believe that is what the Bible teaches. It is one thing to be cooperative with folks who believe that… but to have that theological flavor leading the future of the SBC does not excite me at all.
I know that is not difficult for you to understand. You may disagree with me and that is fine. If folks in the SBC don’t mind that this current direction continues then that is fine too. You speak out in favor of the new direction I speak out against it. That is a valid SBC issue… which is what you said this site was for.
Fortunately, there are at least folks who are seeing my view point; some will agree and some will disagree but at least they get a chance to make a decision for themselves.
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“I would add . . . I have not seen shouting “murderer” to be very effective. I actually used this early on as a pro-life worker in Berkeley. As true as it is, it has not been an effective means (of itself) in saving many lives.”
So, now we have gone from the cancer in the SBC to abortion. Count me in even though it is “negative”. :o)
Frank is right that is not an effective means but I have seen very effective means in our city that has gone from 5 abortion mills to now 1 (even though we know hospitals/outpatient surgeries are doing them)
1. Do whatever it takes to buy and fund a crisis center as close as possible to the abortion clinic.
2. Have 3D ultrasound. This one invention has changed more minds than anything else. When you can see kidneys working at 19 weeks it is overwhelming proof to the most hardened minds.
3. Offer free medical care, personal care, adoption services, etc to mother. Offer her a place to live until she can get on her feet after having baby. (In other words, if you want to save the baby, then don’t punish the mother. It does not work)
A friend of mine who was a counselor now has 2 daughters who are the result of the counseling she offered. Both pregnant girls asked her to adopt their baby. She was there at birth, coaching, cutting cords, etc.
It is a beautiful thing.