I have friends who believe that the Conservative Resurgence in the SBC was a work of God that turned a denomination from the path of ruin which other denominations have followed. I have other friends who think the CR was a political shenanigan, a power-grab that had little to do with theology. They do not admit that there was a genuine problem with liberalism and see the CR as a tragedy which has ruined our denomination.
I think there is some truth on both sides.
I was a foot soldier in the CR. I attended the Houston convention in 1979 and was thrilled when Adrian Rogers was elected president, a turning point in our denominational life. I attended a few of the conventions during the 80s, as time and money allowed. I was there at the 1990 SBC when Morris Chapman won a landslide victory in an election many thought would reverse the history of conservative victories. After that decisive victory, the CBF was formed and the moderates threw in the towel as far as the national SBC was concerned and took the battle to the state conventions. All I ever did for the CR was cast my vote and speak to my church about the issues. I was never one of the leaders (I was a young whippersnapper back then) nor was I an organizer. I just attended and voted my conscience.
I checked out of national SBC life soon after that 1990 convention. I moved to Iowa where we had bigger fish to fry, just trying to survive as SOUTHERN Baptists in the frozen north. Our state convention and state paper intentionally left national SBC political information out because we did not wish to be divided by the things like that. I attended a couple of conventions in the years I was in Cedar Rapids (1991-2005) but usually only because they were in Orlando, where my parents lived (Kissimmee) and it was an excuse to take some vacation time.
Then, the IMB controversy hit in 2005 and I got interested in national politics again. I had just finished a 2 1/2 year term as president of the Baptist Convention of Iowa and had moved to Sioux City, so my focus on state convention life waned and I became involved in national Baptist life again, through blogging.
The CR was the kind of war you do not soon forget. Those of you who are young whippersnappers cannot, perhaps, understand how it was back then. It was war, bloody war! On both sides. (Moderates like to present it as an attack from conservatives on innocent and peace-loving moderates, but that is historical revisionism at best – both sides brought out the big guns.) It was a war that left an imprint on this denomination and has continued to affect us more than 20 years after the shooting war ended.
(For those who object to the militaristic wording, all I can say is I think it is an apt description of SBC life in the 80s.)
Here are some of my persectives, nearly 25 years later, on the CR and its effects on our denomination.
1) The CR was a battle that had to be fought.
It was an ugly epoch in the life of the SBC, but I am thrilled that it happened. I would not be SBC anymore if it had not. I have heard more than one person assert that there was not really a liberalism problem in the SBC. Others have said that inerrancy was not a significant issue, or was a smoke screen.
I saw liberalism first hand. I attended a small Baptist college and I experienced the effects of liberalism. I saw the debilitating spiritual legacy of liberal teaching on the lives of those I entered school with and who were my friends. All of our professors were from Southern Seminary except one who came from SEBTS. They undermined or ridiculed every doctrine I had ever been taught in church. The complete truthfulness of scripture. The uniqueness of Christ. The existence of the devil as a real entity. The substitutionary atonement of Christ.
One OT professor started class by saying that there was no such thing as predictive prophecy. Any such prophecies in scripture were actually written later and falsely claimed as prophecies. In a Hebrew class, he said these words, “Let’s face it men, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammend; they are all just different flags under which God flies his name.” Overhearing a conversation I was having with another student, he recommended that we correct our theology by watching the John Denver movie, “Oh, God!”
We had a well-known professor at our Spiritual Emphasis week tell us that Jesus did not actually come to earth intending to die, but that his death was the result of political miscalculations.
When my school cleaned up the religion department the year after I left, the OT prof went to teach at Midwestern Seminary, until he finally settled in a Virginia Baptist college. Another of my profs became president at one of the CBF-affiliated seminaries that formed after the CR.
I went to SWBTS after a couple of years at Dallas Seminary, and I encountered a mix of conservative and moderate profs.
No one can tell me that there was no real liberalism problem. I saw it firsthand. I sat under the tutelage of men who were not just moderate; they were Bible-doubting, Blood-denying, faith-crumbling false teachers, and I did not want their kind to spread in the SBC. I went to conventions not for any desire for political power. I loved the Word and was committed to Christ, and I was then, as I am today, convinced that doing nothing in terms of liberalism in the SBC was far more damaging that joining the fight.
2) The CR had too much collateral damage.
From my observations, the number of liberals in the SBC was relatively small. I think there were three primary groups during the conflict. First, there were liberals who were undermining the faith. There were conservatives who joined the fray and were determined to root the liberals out of the SBC. The third group was a significant group. They were conservatives who believed everything other conservatives believed, but did not see the need for the war or did not like the way the war was being carried out.
It was my belief then and I remain convinced today that my side, the conservative side, made a huge mistake in drawing the orthodoxy line at the political level. Those who believed what we believed but did not join in the battle against liberalism were viewed as enemies of the faith. Better that we had tried to win them than target them.
Too many genuinely conservative men were labeled as liberals because they did not support the tactics of the Conservative Resurgence.
3) The CR created a warrior class.
The fact is, though, it was war and it was easy to think that if you were not with us, you were against us. If you voted for the other side, you were the enemy. I thought that was a mistake, but it was an understandable mistake in the middle of a pitched battle such as was being waged in the 1980s.
But, unfortunately, that warrior spirit has survived and there is a tendency, especially among some of those of my generation and older, to carry that into many of our modern denominational battles. The CR was over a fundamental issue of the faith. Most of our battles today are between groups which fully affirm the BF&M and are committed to Baptist theology.
But that warrior mentality, the us-against-them, we-are-fighting-for-our lives mentality is not easily left behind. I’m a pretty conservative guy in every way, but I have been labeled a moderate more than once by bloggers who disagreed with positions on denominational issues. I am afraid that many of the controversies we face today are the spiritual children of the warrior mentality we developed in the 1970s and 80s.
Anyone ever noticed that churches that start out of splits tend to be prone to splits in their existence – something in the spiritual DNA of the church. I am afraid that the CR left something in the DNA of the modern SBC that leaves us prone to fighting and splintering over issues that do not matter.
4) CR Warriors sometimes fought with fleshly tactics.
Paul told the Corinthians that believers had weapons of warfare that were spiritual, not carnal.
For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:3–5
I am afraid that too often we adapted the weapons of the flesh to fight this battle. If, as I believe, the battle was righteous, we could have eschewed some of the more extreme tactics that were used and eventually accomplished the same aim with less collateral damage. It is easy to say that now with 25 years of space, but I said that (to the four people who listened to me) back in the days of the battle. I sometimes did not like the weapons my side chose, even though I agreed with the aims for which we fought.
There was a tendency common then which is still seen commonly today – the “fight fire with fire” mentality. The other side was political, scheming in secret meetings, and we must do the same. I never accepted that argument. We are told to return good for evil and are specifically prevent by scripture from fighting fire with fire.
I am thrilled with the results of the CR. I am not proud of all the tactics that were used.
5) The CR won the war, but did we lose the peace?
Today, Japan and Germany are our allies. Why? Because when we defeated them in WWII, we then set about rebuilding them. We not only won the war, but we won the peace as well. The USA prospered because we made our enemies into allies.
There were a significant number of true conservatives who either stayed out of the war or even sided with the moderate/liberal side. When the shooting war was over and the reformation well under way, we should have reached out intentionally to the non-aligned conservatives and made them welcome in the SBC.
Too often, we continued to ostracize and view with suspicion those who did not join the cause. If the USA can turn enemies into allies, could not the SBC (with the help of the Holy Spirit) have done the same?
Conclusion
Those are my reflections on the CR in the SBC. I am glad the battle was fought and won. I think the SBC is healthier today than it would have been had we done nothing. I shudder to think where we would be today if the CR had not happened. On the other hand, just because the goal was worthy does not mean that everything we did was right. Some of our tactics were fleshly and extreme and this has left an imprint on our denomination.
I am thrilled that we can today move forward as a conservative, inerrantist denomination. I hope that never changes. But we must also deal with the effects of the CR on our denominational life.
One man’s opinion.
I hesitate to post this and leave. I’ll be out of touch most of the day, so I’m trusting on all the threads that you folks will play nice, be excellent to each other and party on, dudes.
In a word (copying Dave): yep.
The ends justify the means. That same tactic is still being used in the Louisiana Baptist Convention. Except, now the witches are conservative inerrantist Calvinists, not moderates or liberals. What hath the C.R. wrought?
I think that’s the kind of comment you can only make in retrospect. In the middle of the effort you might have been able to see both sides and realize that both sides chose to battle and to turn it into a war and both sides knew the SBC would be lost to their faction if they lost the war. Which is to say that the people who fought the war believed it was for all the marbles and believed it was a matter of the essential character of their faith that was at stake. And in the United States… Read more »
Greg,
I’m sorry, I’m not following your reply. I made no comment on Dave’s motivations. Merely pointing out the tactics used in the C.R. are still being used at this very moment in Louisiana Baptist politics.
Conflating the two events–the CR and the disagreement at LC–and labeling both as “ends justifying means” and “the same tactic” is what I was addressing. The use of the term “war” by Dave suggests that there was an overarching strategy that eventually prevailed. As it turns out, history confirms that use of the term “war” in terms of the implementation of a strategy that worked when, if you will, diplomacy was no longer effective. Your skirmishing at LC is, indeed, a tactic or more precisely a counter-tactic. As is the decision at LC to not renew the professors (which actually… Read more »
Greg, You are very much wrong if you think I don’t know what CR tactics are and how to fight those who are using them. I, and others, have played the cards we can, as David Hankins and Joe Aguillard do all their deeds in the darkness. I have brought light to only actions that were public, the firing of Calvinist professors which was never about theology but power. No conflation here. Many of the Baptist politicians in Louisiana are indeed trying to have another CR. You can believe that or not. I’m not writing here to persuade you or… Read more »
So you’re committed to the view that the CR tactics were often selected at the time simply based on ends justifying means? And your tactics are above comment?
Joshua,
Thank You, for your continued reporting on LC. Your current update shows some of the issues of politics within the SBC. I know it has cost you dearly for standing for the teachings of Christ. The body will be better off due to your reporting.
Thanks, John.
Joshua, Your statement, “… the firing of Calvinist professors which was never about theology but power.” is revealing. Are you saying that you were in a meeting with the LBC leaders where you heard them state that the actions taken were not about theology but rather about power or are you surmising? My grandfather was a very wise man, though as a teenager I didn’t appreciate some of his wisdom. More than once he chided me with “when you ascribe motives to another’s actions you reveal your own.” Could it be that you are so sensitive to the theological division… Read more »
To T, Jr., how true! I, too, am old and tired, but we must toil on. Determining where and when and how and whom and why and etc. is no easy matter. Arrogance is a problem for our enemies, and, sad to admit, a problem for all of us, right or wrong. Who has not seen the arrogance of ignorance, and who has not seen the arrogance of knowledge? One problem we have is fear and the lack of fear, that is, we have fears and plenty of them, realized and unrealized, and often we also do not have the… Read more »
R. Richard Tribble Jr.,
I don’t publicly state what I don’t know. So, to your answer your two questions, no.
What tactics? Encouraging people to attend and vote? Making facts known about some of our employees? Electing declared conservatives? Was the CR just a dressed-up witch hunt that merely switched power from one group to another? Do you actually think that mods in control back then did not use power to control hiring and appointments?
You may have a just cause at LBC but err in your making it an equivalency to the CR.
Do you actually think that mods in control back then did not use power to control hiring and appointments?
Hum… that is an interesting comment… back then… today… same ole tactics… different players.
Sounds like the comments from someone too young to have actually been there. All he knows is what he has read.
Les,
And you have only read about the Civil War and the founding of the SBC. Does that mean you can know nothing about it? That’s a fallacy, brother.
Yes it is Joshua. “Let no one despise your youth” 1 Timothy 4:12.
Hiring and firing are two different things, are they not?
It’s one thing to hire and appoint who you want, to hire only those who share your views, your ideology, your politics, your theology.
It’s a completely different thing to purge a department, to fire folks and be completely dishonest in doing so.
Also, The Southern Baptist Journal. The Southern Baptist Advocate.
Those were very popular conservative newspapers that read like the National Enquirer.
Dave,
I don’t have your email so this is the only place i can post, but i wondered if my earlier post on a different thread is still in moderation intentionally or unintentionally. I presume it was moderated because i posted 3 links, but they are of great value. Thanks.
Since he’s out, I can definitively answer that more than one link will put the comment in moderation from my personal, previous experience.
His email is davemillerisajerk@hotmail (Yes, it’s a real email. Yes, I’ve used it.)
[dot] com
I believe Dave will be out for a good part of the day. I can affirm that your post is still in moderation–probably b/c of the links. Because it is there and not in the trash I can assume that it’s at this point unintentionally there. Because of the nature of the comment I’m not in a position to free it from moderation.
You can also email Dave at davemillerisajerk [at] hotmail [dot] com
Mike,
Thanks for the explanation. I’ll email him.
Excellent article Dave! I agree completely!
That’s because you have high intelligence. #1 sign of high IQ is agreeing with me.
Well, I want to say I applaud your posting. My experience goes back past years by about 20 years. I think the first SBC I ever attended was in St. Louis in either ’59 or ’61 or both (I don’t have the Annual readily available to check the ’59 date). The issue had already arisen. In ’59 I caught some references to the liberalism ideas in a Psychology class. Later, in ’61 in a second semester of that class the professor introduced us to Ralph Elliott’s book, The Message of Genesis. One student said, “Ah, Professor, your just an Atheist!”… Read more »
I always enjoy reading your comments. Fascinating.
Add to 51 years of being an ordained minister, 28 years of actually pastoring, the research of 6 years intensely in church history on the folks who were persecuted through the last 2000 years, 2 yrs of research on I Cors.13, a year or two on Preaching, the same on the first 13 Psalms, 40 years of praying for a great awakening, and sufferings hard to be described, let alone imagined, with blessings like wise hard to be imagined. Thank you Adam G. in NC. I live in Apex. where do you reside. My net address is jimwillingham@att.net
Northeast Franklin County.
I have shared this on a couple of occasions in my blogging history, but think that, for those who have not heard it, it may be a good time to share it again. A few months before he died, I had a conversation with my dad (Adrian Rogers, for those who may be new to Baptist blogging, and not yet made the connection for one reason or another) about the SBC. He told me at that time what concerned him most about the future of the SBC. He used a term that he would never have used publicly, but a… Read more »
David, Growing up in West Tn, I loved your dad and had as much respect for him as ANY person I knew. I had just graduated from Union and was at the airport when your dad flew in from Houston and the Bellevue church family was there to greet him there. I actually shook his hand that day. I was invited to his office on a couple of occasions later and cherished those meetings one on one. It really amazed me. I still listen to his sermons at times today. I agree that there are a lot of people who… Read more »
David: I think the Conservatives were awakening to the fact and the reality that, once aroused, men are given to excesses and there is no easy way to ameliorate their vindictiveness. It is hard to think of others, when one wants to lash out. Nevertheless, such is required of God’s people. I have often grieved at the thought of the lady professor put out in the cold with no cancer insurance for her husband by one our institutions. Where was the Christian charity in such action. The same goes for the canning of even those with whom we disagree theologically.… Read more »
thank you for remembering that lady, Dr. WILLINGHAM . . .
I understand she is now doing well, but there is no doubt she and her family suffered greatly at the time
Christiane: Note also the reference to eldresses in my comment previous to the one about the lady professor. And thank you.
David,
I thought alot of your dad.
Dave,
Good post.
Points one and two offer a good balance. Where there was error it may have been quite severe as you note in #1. That the problem was pervasive or ubiquitous, your #2 clarifies.
To my way of thinking this intensifies your observations, amplifies them. Your #5 may be the best, even if I think others have rightly pointed out Baptist distinctives, while liberation, also tend toward fracture and fragment. Mark Noll for instance – http://www.toddlittleton.net/baptists-inherently-fractured.
Again, good post. Thanks for reflecting.
Dave Good post & observations. I was part of the CR from the beginning. I served on various SBC committees and eventually served on the board of Southern for 8 years, 3 years as chairman. In the early days most of us who were involved got involved for the right reasons. But your observations about the creation of the warrior class and fleshly tactics is spot on, and yes there was far too much collateral damage. After I finished my tenure at SBTS I basically checked out of denominational life; too many bad memories and too much pain. But the… Read more »
From the perspective of one coming of age at that time, the CR meant that I didn’t have a place in the SBC of my ancestors and that I grew up in. When I left home at 18, I also left the SBC behind and I haven’t looked back. I follow this site and a few others because I swim in a sea of Southern Baptists, so to speak, and it’s useful to keep an eye on what’s going on. But I’m not a Baptist any more, and I have no regrets.
Dave,
You are very right when you use the word “war,” and that the liberals/moderates were just as mean and acted just as ugly as some conservatives did.
I was in Dallas and Atlanta when we had 40,000 plus show up for the SBC. I saw some liberals act very ugly….even had one get in my face, screaming at me for not voting for Winfred Moore for 1st VP. I mean, he was mad, mad, mad….
Thank God for the CR. If not for the CR, I, too, would NOT be a SB, today.
David
Thanks Dave,
Although sometimes the tactics of the CR left something to be desired, it was still absolutely necessary. All one has to do is look at the CBF and we know the best thing that could have possibly happened was for the liberals to leave.
Dave: Your experience almost parallels mine exactly, except I went to law school instead of DTS where I had planned on going. Of course I agreed with the CR and its aims. I cannot imagine what the SBC would be like today if the CR had not been successful. Wait, yes I can. It would be just like the CBF. There are some wonderful people in the CBF. But the CBF has no doctrinal confession. That is a flaw of gigantic proportions. In my opinion it really is not charactristic of the Christian faith. How can we make disciples and… Read more »
Louis, Thank you for your comment… I too flirted with the notion of law school and had a lawyer willing to pay me to go to school if I would just agree to go to work for him when I got out. I did advise him on a couple cases which he was successful in though. I appreciate more than you will ever know for making the following statement: The CR was also necessary from a practical viewpoint. It is simply not healthy for a denomination the size of the SBC to have an elite class in the educational and… Read more »
Bob: It is interesting to find us on the same side. You are quite right about there being no need for an elite class to run the SBC as the Mods seemed to have intended. You are also right as with Dave that the CR was something needed. The only thing we did not figure on was the fact that there would be those who would use it to advance their own causes (i.e., careers, etc. and that at the expense of others). Pathologies come to the fore in situations of conflict. Let there be a psychological abnormality hid in… Read more »
Dr. Willingham,
I, too, have prayed for years about another Great Awakening. I have also been praying for a real revival in the Church.
May the Lord make it happen.
David
Amen!
Thank you, volfan, Dave. I should expect as much from my Grandma’s home state, and fan of my Great Great Grandfather’s school (Univ. of Tenn.). :).
Dave, After reading many comments on different threads over several months, I have found there are many moderates in the SBC today. I think some are now leaning toward the liberal side. I’ll just give one example, church discipline, this is taught in the scriptures, and very rarely exercised. Many will say today, oh, let’s smooth this over and move on. Today, some folks live a life of sin, adultry, fornication, drunkeness, and pot just to name a few. Smooth it over, church, let’s move on. I think it’s sick. Liberals want to smooth it over. We need a CR… Read more »
Bob:
You are welcome. Thank you, too, for your recollections. I also really appreciated Adrian Rogers, and was so pleased to see your affection for him.
Hope I get to run into you sometime.
Thanks.
Likewise. It is nice to have someone that wants to “run into me” as opposed to “running over me”.
Little humor there. I know I am loved!
Bob,
He is a part time Mactruck driver.
Any one who doubts the Mods. use of power should have heard one who was once a member of them and how he got called in to the office of a certain FBC and threatened with a contract in order to get back in line. The word came all the way from Nashville. And he never again pastored any more good churches, but wound up where I was from the get go, pastoring small country churches. He would see the fellow on his death bed who had sent the warning, and lived on for several years. It is sad to… Read more »
I’ve said it about 100 times. The biggest problem in the SBC today is not Calvinism or Traditionalism or any of the other issues we fight about. It is that there has been no one of Adrian Rogers’ stature who could inspire us.
I think Dr. Page may have the ability to be such a man. He’s the closest we have. Other than David Worley, of course.
Lol
Dave,
I’ve never found theological compromise very inspiring.
Perhaps, the knowledge of how to work out compromises wherein every participant feels like a gainer? Cf. John Leland and the compromise between the Separates and Regulars.
Well, OK then. I reckon this puts it all in perspective, don’t it fellows? I am really glad it is all finally cleared up and everyone has perfect clarity.
Do clarify!
I’m not sure whether this comment was directed at my post, or at a particular comment.
But, for the record, my view of the CR was clarified largely by conversations with an unnamed source with the initials CB.
Dave, The comment was directed toward a couple of comments in the thread. The post, your post, is a well developed presentation of specific realities of the the CR. Had the CR not happened, none of the guys who often fight here over Calvinism would be here fighting over Calvinism. Most would have no idea what Calvinism is nor would they care because they would be theological dwarves bred and birthed by theological dwarves and godless liberals in Baptist pulpits and seminary classrooms. They would be fighting over professing homosexuals, lesbians, and heterosexual serial-marriage adulterers and whore-mongers and abortion advocates… Read more »
CB,
I love your comment here brother. All my favorite preachers are old CR warriors. They pulled off, with the help of God, what no other main line denomination has ever done once started in that direction and that’s come back from the brink of apostacy. Because liberalism always leads to wholesale apostacy.
I will tell you folks a story. When I went to the SBC in ’63 to vote to save the convention from liberalism, I stayed in private housing (arranged then through the convention. My room mate was a western pastor from Northern New Mexico, Brother Estes Hardy, whose church had sent him on the Sante Fe Chief (passenger train, a streamliner) to as he said, “Save the Convention from Liberalism.” Brother Hardy, originally from Oklahoma, had gone to New Mexico due to a lung problem. During his service in Oklahoma, he had a call from a child to come home… Read more »
Thanks Dave. I also lived through the CR and was a supporter of it. At the ’83 Convention in Pittsburgh, I had the opportunity to attend one of those famous hotel-room strategy meetings. Well known CR leaders, names you would recognize, were present. On that day I became disillusioned with the movement. I walked away, deciding that I would continue to cast my votes for leaders who were, to the best of my knowledge, biblical conservatives but that I would not be involved in the CR at the strategy level. That decision cost me. Those who were more vocal in… Read more »
The fact is that anyone who wants to say that such politicizing didn’t go on is ignoring the truth. It went on long before the CR, and it continues to today. It will be here after we are all dead and gone. It is present in every agency of the SBC. It is about power and prestige. It is about names and places. There are plenty of good and godly people who are willing to serve but who will never get the opportunity because they aren’t connected to the proper people, don’t live in the right locale, didn’t go to… Read more »
Thank you for sharing this insight.
Likely, many who followed the leaders and directors of the CR knew little about the ‘inside workings’ that you describe here,
but DAVID’s post together with your comment do provide me with more understanding, as a student of Southern Baptist beliefs and practice.
John Wallace: I have been in meetings like that, too. I have heard people who were asked what they thought of people who might be nominated to the Committee on Committees or the Committee on Boards (the old name) or as Trustees. I certainly cannot speak for the meeting that you were in. But the meetings that I have been in had similar discussions, but they were not for the purpose of maligning people. The purpose was to try and determine with the collective knowledge of the group whether they had heard anything that would cause them to believe that… Read more »
LOUIS,
your comment also provides insight for me into what happened and why, and thank you for sharing this, as I will add it to David’s post and Mr. Wallace’s comment as a source of what can help me to understand the events of those days,
and to provide insight into some of what followed that caused concern as well.
Thanks, Louis, for responding. I appreciate your perspective. Your experience seems to have been more positive than mine. Thank you for acknowledging that lying about people should not have been tolerated. I agree. I didn’t witness much outright lying about people but saw plenty of innuendo. And thank you also for pointing out that CR leaders needed to have frank discussions in an attempt to identify weak conservatives who would likely compromise under pressure for the sake of peace. That is fair. In my experience, things went farther: As you say, some were marginalized because “they also had said some… Read more »
I have read this thread several times over and cannot remain silent any longer. I never attended a Baptist undergraduate institution, so I have no firsthand information about them. I went to a Methodist college, majored in Physics, and was not even a Christian then. Did some moderates threaten conservatives? I have no personal knowledge of it one way or another, but when you consider that there are 16 million of us “more or less,” some are going to be emotionally and spiritually immature regardless of the theology they espouse. Plus, the sort of tactics that were being used at… Read more »
Another helpful (and refreshing) comment . . . good to get recollections of that time from a variety of points of view
John, There were true liberals, out there, back in the day. They did exist. Dave has told you about some of them that he, personally, dealt with…heard…and saw with his own eyes and ears. We had liberal Pastors and Profs, who believed in women Pastors….who denied that Jesus was the only way to Heaven….who believed that the Bible had errors in it; not translations-the Bible…..who denied the existence of the Devil and Hell; or who said that there were 2 Devils; that Satan and the Devil were 2 different beings….who denied the physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead….who said… Read more »
David, you said, “We had liberal Pastors and Profs, who believed in women Pastors,” OK, true enough; though I would argue that does not make one a “classic” liberal, or necessarily mean one denies the Bible, but only that one interprets it differently. The you added, “We had liberal Pastors and Profs …. who denied that Jesus was the only way to Heaven….who believed that the Bible had errors in it; not translations-the Bible…..who denied the existence of the Devil and Hell; or who said that there were 2 Devils; that Satan and the Devil were 2 different beings….who denied… Read more »
John, The question is not whether it was possible to get an education at SEBTS or how anyone graded. The questions involved are simply these: 1. Was SEBTS pre-1979 funded by Cooperative Program dollars? 2. When raising Cooperative Program dollars pre-1979, did SBC leadership go to SBC churches and say, “Don’t worry, all of our professors believe that the Bible is inspired in at least some way or another, and that the cross has some sort of power in it,” or were they, instead, going around to the churches pointing to the wording of the Baptist Faith & Message and… Read more »
Yep, what Bart said.
You sound like a lawyer, Bart. Most participants in the CR surely didn’t approach it in such an analytical way. A really nasty decade-long battle. Frankly, the failure of moderates was that they were late responding, disorganized, at times their own worst enemy AND not nasty enough. Fight fire with fire. And there was certainly no moderate equivalent of the Southern Baptist Journal or Southern Baptist Advocate. There was no moderate version of James Hefley. And there was no moderate Russ Kammerlings and Roger Morans. And maybe all that was a good thing. Y’all just love a good fight. It’s… Read more »
Almost every one if the state papers was moderate controlled and often vitriolic. I lived in Texas and VA. Those papers made no attempt at balance.
And I think, from my observations, that the idea that the moderates were innocent, disorganized and that they were too nice strains credulity. Why would they need other papers when BP carried water for them?
The difference between the sides was not in tenor or tactics, but that conservatives were able to produce voting majorities at conventions
“And I think, from my observations, that the ideas that the moderates were innocent, disorganized and that they were too nice strains credulity.”
Frankly, to state the liberals and moderates (there were many liberals) “were innocent, disorganized and that they were too nice strains credulity” is far more than just a strain of credulity. It is completely false, especially if you were a conservative serving in NC or VA.
Also, the greatest “difference” was and still is; We conservatives were right and the moderates were wrong and the liberals were long gone and wickedly wrong.
The editors of the VA papers were liberal to the core of their being. They also had no great problem with putting things in print that were somewhat less than true. (my saying “somewhat less than true” is due to my being older and kinder in my old age so I don’t just call them lying dogs anymore.)
Was my comment deleted? Why?
I’m not the comment police, but there is a comment from you on up the thread at about the #19 spot. Is that the one to which you refer?
That was for BDW. Threading has collapsed.
No, I left another comment in reply to Bart. Dave clearly responded to that comment because he referenced my use of “disorganized.” That comment is gone.
I now suspect it got yanked for a reference to Calvinism.
I deleted no comments
I see it now. A technical glitch perhaps.
My gut reaction must make me more like a SBCer than I originally thought – #malware
🙂
No, moderator glitch
Evidently I did delete that comment. Unintended. Working on my phone leads to trouble.
Exactly, Dave. Also, the liberals controlled all the boards and committees…they controlled all the entities….and very few non liberals/moderates were ever asked to serve in these spots. They always made sure they had a vast majority…..to keep control.
And, it was the same way, here, in the TN Bapt. Conv. Thanks God, it’s not that way, anymore in TN.
David
“You sound like a lawyer, Bart.”
Just spent three months on the Constitution & Bylaws Review Committee for SBTC. Lots of work with lawyers. Perhaps it is rubbing off.
Taking off the lawyer hat and turning to things historical, BDW, what would you say was the average frequency of discordant disagreements in the SBC pre-1979, under the previous regime? Also, are you suggesting that the BGCT has been without controversy since 1998? The CBF?
Strife and contentiousness are definitely a problem. I think you err, though, in classifying as a “y’all” problem that which appears to me to be a “we” problem.
Sounds a lot like “pickle theology.” What is the responsibility of a professor toward God? Is his/her first allegiance to Christ, or to a human being? If things were left up to a majority vote of the constituents of the SBC, our churches and institutions (civic and religious as well) would still be segregated, based on the SBC of 1960. For that matter, go back to the SBC of 1860, and we’d still have slavery.
John
John, we have a confession that spells out what we believe. Someone is free to NOT believe what we believe. But if they do not believe as we believe, they ought not draw their salary from the offerings of those with whom they disagree, then try to convince the students from those churches that what we commonly believe is wrong. I remember my liberal college professors essentially ridiculing Sunday school, telling us that we needed to leave behind what we were taught in Sunday School, etc. Professors ought to challenge our thinking, but not undermine our confession. It is a… Read more »
John,
People like Martin Luther demonstrate their first allegiance to Christ by taking a stand and risking persecution or death for their convictions. I can’t think of a single convictional Christian with integrity in the history of Christianity whose theory was that folks ought to be able to demonstrate their “first allegiance to Christ” by being pampered, unaccountable, and entitled to a paycheck with no questions asked.
Also, it is no demonstration of an allegiance to Christ to denounce His word as riddled with errors and unreliable.
To Dave, vol fan, & others: I said in my initial comment that I could not address what professors in any Baptist colleges said, because I never attended one. If they said/did any of the things you claim (such as forget everything you learned in Sunday school–though some Sunday School stuff should be forgotten, or agree with me or suffer a bad grade, etc.), then it is a sign of emotional and spiritual immaturity, and should have been discharged for it. But that hardly means every institution should be purged of everyone for the sin of a few. Dave, you… Read more »
To John Wallace: John I attended SEBTS from ’72-’76, taking the M.Div in ’74 and the D.Min. in ’76. I, too, wrote a paper, one that almost flunked me out of my doctoral program. It was in a class on Missions and Theology, and I wrote on the Billy Graham Evangelistic Organization’s Lausanne Covenant, specifically, the article on inspiration of Scripture, defending verbal inspiration (which is not a theory, but is actually taught by Jesus Himself, if we accept that the report of Him speaking in Matt. 22is accurate, along with Jn. 10:34-36, not to mention some other passages bearing… Read more »
Wow. When I did my PhD work at SWBTS, I got some pushback from the more moderate professors but nothing like this.
I’d argue that conservative college and seminary doctoral programs are way more tolerant of liberal approaches in academics than liberal colleges and seminaries are of conservative approaches. Want to get shouted down? Try speaking out in favor of some conservative topic on one of today’s college campuses. Want to have a discussion? Bring up a liberal topic in a conservative professor’s doctoral seminar.
You state the truth, Duckman Dale.
There is no meaner creature on earth than a liberal backed into a corner by irrefutable truth. They “can’t handle the truth!”
Duckman and CB are spot on. This has also been my experience, as well. Liberals turn mean and ugly and nasty when you disagree with them.
David
And they don’t even attempt to hide their intolerance of our “intolerance.” It’s amazing, illogical, and idiotic.
Dale, didn’t you and CB read all of my statement? That part where I spoke of the students and faculties of the Postmodern era not allow dissent?
I did indeed see that sir. Was simply adding my proverbial 2 pennies and agreement.
James,
I do read your comments. That is why I sometimes send you emails. Remember?
I think you both needed a nap before hand.
Well, I do sometimes like a nap, but I can’t see how it would have benefited my reading of your comment.
For anyone who wants to know what was happening, as it happened, I recommend “The Truth in Crisis: The Controversy in the Southern Baptist Convention (Vol. 1)” by James Hefley. It is a 5 volume set, but vol. 2-4 do get a bit tedious. Vol 1 is most interesting and was written pretty much as the events were taking place. This is a very fair and objective. His biases are admitted early.
A very interesting view from the other side of the CR:
“Once There Was a Camelot”: Women Doctoral Graduates of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, 1982-1992, Talk about the Seminary, the Fundamentalist Takeover, and Their Lives Since SBTS
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.rande.org/SHAW.doc&sa=U&ei=ED97UdbQEJOk8ASPk4C4AQ&ved=0CBoQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFSebBM06WQv3bdTMEPKU_vgXQ4eg
Interesting article.
Early on, the authors reveal that over 10% of the female PhD and EdD graduates of Southern Seminary during the period 1982-1992 are lesbians.
William Thornton,
SEBTS had similar issues back in the day.
I can vouch for the same problems in the student population at GGBTS during that time. Of course, San Francisco is just across the Bay….
To BDW: The Moderates did play nasty, too. with the Conservatives and with their own who got out of line. Too bad, my friend who was threatened with a mafia hit contract is deceased (of natural causes) and is not here to tell his story. Too bad, some conservatives do not believe the story of the dodekers (Greek for the Twelve, an organization that might have begun around the turn of 1900 to put libs in leading pulpits and positions throughout the convention. Too bad that not many believe the DOMS were set up to receive CP funds from the… Read more »
Deleted comments??
There is an answer to this mystery. It was the CR Ghost. He also called out the Park Rangers to run Randall Lolley and company out of the Alamo in 1988.
John Wallace and John Farris thank you for your comments. I have had similar experiences to yours. I also have never heard a SB professor deny the virgin birth, deity of Christ, salvation by grace or the other core beliefs mentioned on this site. I am sorry for those who have experienced this. I and others I know wanted to believe that the CR was based on conservative theological principles but were disillusioned early in the process by the activities and the type of people put in places of leadership. I believe David Rogers called them tire-slashers. For my old… Read more »
Ron, First off, good to see you here. It’s been a while. Last I remember, it seems you were near retirement. Are you stateside now? Now let me try to respond to your inquiries. With regard to my dad’s use of the term “tire-slashers,” I did not understand him to refer to the main leaders of the CR. He meant by “tire-slashers” something akin to what Dave Miller means by “foot-soldiers of the CR,” but not just any foot-soldier, but those who became consumed with their role as foot-soldiers. Another term my dad used in the same context was “Young… Read more »
Thank you, David.
In Texas, where I served at the time, there were pastors who were outraged at Rankin’s appointment. They maintained that it was because of his “charismatic” sympathies, though they were generally fuzzy on the specifics. I think it’s also fair to conclude that some who opposed Rankin had personal/political reasons for doing so.
A friend of mine—not a charismatic—heard another friend complain back when Rankin was appointed: “He’s a charismatic.”
My friend replied, “Considering where we’ve been [pre-CR], I’m thrilled we’re considering someone spiritual enough to be a charismatic.”
That’s a true story.
Actually, I kinda felt that way.
Ron West, I have always admired your grit. There have also been issues on which we have agreed. It is also true that I did lose a position in an SBC institution because a conservative leader threw me under the bus. (He took the word of liars for convenience sake) I think he may now realize his error (don’t know for sure). Yet, I must say, the Lord Jesus used the evil that some did for good in my life. Looking back, I hold no grudge and would stand by that conservative leader who threw me under the bus again… Read more »
That should be SWBTS was the most conservative. SEBTS was never conservative before the CR. Dr. Paige Patterson led SEBTS to be the Flagship of SBC seminaries during his tenure.
I think if you look at the direction those who left the SBC took, it is clear that there was a divergence there.
Precisely Dave. To deny the existence of actual liberalism is the height of absurdity.
Dave I sometimes read this blog jus to see what the Calvinist think. I do enjoy your blog and much of the discussion within. I have a lot of respect for you. But this time I was offended. I did not sit on the side lines during the Conservative Resurgence; I was very involved and had to endure the criticism from the moderates and denominational worker who felt the need to attack or blackball anyone who was standing for the conservative cause. I know that you did not mean too, but it seems that your article missed many important points… Read more »
“The problem was that many liberal pastors were not successful in their churches and people within the convention would place them in leadership position either in the Southern Baptist Convention, State Conventions, or recommend them to association as their Directors.” . . . . and some of them are still in position today, but they now call themselves conservatives. However, in some cases, conservatives have dropped the ball and put some of these “Chameleon Baptists” in leadership roles in recent years. Then, of course, there was and still is another problem with baloney-eatin’-boot-strappin’ trustees who became trustees of SBC entities… Read more »
cb
I agree with you. Today it is more of who you know rather than what you know. It seems to me that one has to either know Al Mohler or support his theology to be recommended to a board or position within the Southern Baptist Convention.
Say that this is true, although I have a hard time believing this since others who are not Calvinists have been appointed to committees and areas of position in the SBC. But….say it is true, where is that any different than the Patterson regime where no Calvinists were appointed for the last 6 or more years? I didn’t hear you crying then.
And the CR certainly used Calvinists in the fight. Calvinists were side by side with non-Calvinists in the fight to gain control from the liberals. So they don’t deserve respect and a place at the table now?
I serve on the board at the seminary over which Paige Patterson presides. Falsely and slanderously the allegation was made that he was firing all of the Calvinists…wouldn’t hire any more Calvinists. I chair the subcommittee that votes on the hiring of all new faculty. So far, just in my brief tenure, I count five Calvinists whom the administration has brought to us and whom we have approved for faculty service.
I count zero apologies from people who have made this false and slanderous allegation.
“I count zero apologies from people who have made this false and slanderous allegation.”
I wouldn’t hold your breath…
That was one of the sadder episodes in our recent history, Bart. And, Donald is right. Do not wait for an apology for that public allegation.
Hello, Debbie. I am getting old, I guess. Sometimes I forget how bitter you can be. First, I do not know if you are in reference to me or someone else when you made the, “I didn’t hear you crying then” comment. However, if you were in reference to me, let me state that I am not crying about anything. I was just addressing the topic of the post according to my personal experiences, having been involved in the CR even before its “acclaimed” birthdate in 1979. Second, If you remember, I have stated many times that numerous Calvinists were… Read more »
“…those Calvinists were true Baptist statesmen and not the new breed of crazy that some Calvinists are today.”
New breed of crazy? CB, I’ve always been my own kind of crazy.
AMEN!
Name some names CB, these “Chameleon Baptists” in leadership roles now. Name one, two would be even better. It would give us (me ) and idea of what you think a “Chameleon Baptist is.
Joe, I’m not completely sure how you got what you got out of what I said. But I’m not in the mood to argue.
I do not think I mentioned Calvinism in the post or in my comments (that I remember) so I’m not sure why you make it about that.
Louis, Your comment (as of now, #67) is exactly right. Few understand the issues you explain. In the Conservative Resurgence there were basically three groups. Conservatives – believed inerrancy was a hill on which to die. To them they not only believed in inerrancy, they considered it a non-negotiable. The SBC must have employees, missionaries, professors who believe the Bible is completely true and trustworthy. Liberals – those who may be wonderful people, but they believe the Bible does, or may contain, errors. Moderates – those who may be theologically conservative and believe in inerrancy. The difference, and it is… Read more »
Thanks. Agree on all points.
John and Ron: Thanks for your thoughts. I do not disagree that there are some people who had good experiences, particularly at Southwestern, and that their service in SBC life did not expose them to the problems that others saw. My father in law, who served with the IMB for 25 or so years, had a similar experience. I think it is fair to say that not all people in the SBC had the same experiences. And there were apparently enough who had bad experiences who were motivated to come to the Convention meetings and vote. I do have some… Read more »
Thanks Ron, I’ve never been involved with the CBF so I can’t answer all of your questions intelligently. I disagree with Cecil Sherman. I would disqualify a missionary candidate who did not affirm the virgin birth. I have two friends who pastor CBF affiliated churches. One calls himself an inerrantist and one does not (for epistemological reasons, he would say). Both affirm historic Nicene and Baptist doctrine. Both are evangelistic. As it stands today, I would have problems cooperating with the CBF because of their lack of theological definition. I’ve always referred to myself an inerrantist and am comfortable with… Read more »
Louis, my apologies. I assumed (and yes, I know how to spell that word) your questions were for another John, so being busy, I did not respond. I will try to do so now. 1) Virgin birth: yes, were it up to me, belief in the virgin birth would be a requirement for missionaries and agency employees. On the other hand, I heard Cecil Sherman discuss this once (not denying what you say he said in this instance, by the way), and I find that the rumors about it are much worse than what he actually said. What I heard… Read more »
Ultimately, any who doubt the need for the CR need only look at the CBF to see the direction we would have taken.
Precisely.
CB I did not say all were solidly conservative. I said the ones I was associated with were. Those were the Arkansas Baptist State Convention, Ouachita Baptist University, SWBTS and the IMB. I was deeply involved with each one and challenge anyone to prove they were not. The Peace Committee found no theological problems with the IMB and SWBTS. That did not keep CR leaders from slandering them. Perhaps that is where you get your misinformation from since you were not personally involved with any of these. If you doubt my word on the Arkansas Baptist State Convention and Ouachita,… Read more »
Sorry Ron but no they wouldn’t have kept us conservative. You cannot rub elbows with apostates and keep us conservative.
Also I do think that all one has to do is look at the CBF to see what direction we would have went. First of all almost all CBF members were former SBs. As SBs their churches’ votes impacted the convention. They helped vote moderates into SB office and thus would have contributed to the continuance of liberal professors and other officers being appointed to key positions in the convention. Most of the guys who took part in the CR and have some regrets would still say that it absolutely had to be done and given the same circumstances they… Read more »
It seems one only need to look to seminaries in Europe during Keith Parks reign to see where we would be today following his lead.
Of course, I respect his right to believe anything, everything or nothing. I just don’t want to join him in promoting any said beliefs.
I am pleased we went in a different direction from the theology and practice of those you list. That does not mean in any way I wish them ill. Change happens. Sometimes it helps.
CASE STUDY 1 I was appointed by the IMB in 1978 and served for 32 years through some of the most difficult days of attacks on our integrity, honesty and theological orthodoxy by leaders of the CR. H was a CR leader and chairman of the trustees of the IMB at a critical point in our history. We know now that the entire time he was serving as a trustee he was having an adulterous affair with a member of his church. He was instrumental in forcing Keith Parks to resign as our president. He along with Ron Wilson were… Read more »
Ron West, In any of your case studies, once an adulterous affair came to light, did conservatives in any way try to ignore the issue, rather than dealing with it? Immorality is a sin that can affect anyone, conservative, moderate, or liberal. Something tells me case studies could also be found in which some moderates proved unfaithful. By it’s nature, immorality is usually committed in secret. We can’t see in someone’s heart, but we can deal with the issue when it is found out. I believe that is what happened in the cases you mention. Just because you can find… Read more »
Great coment David. I really appreciated your last sentence.
Again, anyone who claims that every person in the CR was pristine or every action by the CR was holy and good is deluding himself. But I think that anyone who ignores the danger that liberalism posed (which I saw firsthand) to the life and health of our denomination was foolish. I did not write this to pick old scabs, but because I see too many people who enjoy the blessings of a conservative denomination criticizing freely the struggle that preserved us as a conservative denomination. There was much wrong with the CR. But is was, in my estimation, a… Read more »
Oh, and well said, David.
“””He along with Ron Wilson were two primary sources of slanderous attacks on our missionaries during those days.””” Using words like, “slander,” demonstrates the problematic attitudes of the Keith Park reign. Seminaries were out of control and sucking money like a giant vacuum. The work of Ron Wilson is well documented and vindicated by history. I know Ron very well. I don’t always agree with his point of view, but “slander” is not even in his vocabulary. I think in Debate 101 your argument is referred to as “ad hominem.” It is a particularly weak argument in secular debate but… Read more »
Ron West, Other fellows have responded to your case studies. I think they did well. I will simply speak from what I know and as did you in specific instances, not present names. Although, I am sure that Louis the Lawyer and David R. Brumbelow could name every person you mentioned, as can I and do so with heavy hearts. I concede those things as true. Yet, how do the failures of those specific men negate the CR as a just cause? Ron, you have been around awhile, as have I and David R. Brumbelow and Louis the Lawyer. Therefore,… Read more »
CB,
Brother I think that Ron is going to continue to engage in these drive by comments and not enter into a serious dialogue about the CR.
John Wylie,
I believe Ron West is a man who has taken up the cross and followed Jesus, serving sacrificially for many years and he has my respect for that.
I also believe he is wrong, completely wrong, about the CR not being a positive directional change for the SBC.
However, I must confess, through the years of looking back through the rearview mirror, the CR was and continues to be a complicated experience in its aftermath and all true warriors of that cause, as with any other, live with regrets.
John Wallace, thanks for your comments. I directed my questions to John Fairris, whom I think was the person who had talked about an SBC experience that did not expose him to liberal expressions or influences.
Louis,
I did not realize your questions were directed at me, which is why I did not answer sooner. I have now done so after your entry. BTW, I did not mean that I had no “exposure” to liberal thinking. In Systematic Theology (a required course) were were “exposed” through written sources though without being required to either deny or accept them. The educational philosophy at SEBTS back then was to give the student the tools to find his own perspective.
John
Ron, Thanks for taking the time to reply. No one is really taking issue with your strongly held belief that Richard Jackson, Keith Parks, Winfred Moore and Russell Dilday were theologically conservative. Also, no one is taking issue with your assertion that there were Moderates and Moderate leaders who were theologically conservative. I believe that where we part company is, in my view, your inability to really address or come to terms with the other half of the Moderate leadership that was so prominent. I do not disagree with your assertion that if an IMB missionary had espoused that he/she… Read more »
CASE STUDY 2 Before his recent retirement Richard Land was head of the ERLC. The ERLC is the SBC agency that speaks for the SBC on ethical, moral and race related issues. I was living in Texas when Land was on the staff of Governor Clements of Texas. Land’s main responsibility was to explain to Southern Baptists of Texas why they should vote for Clements even though he had secretly approved payoffs to SMU football players and told Texas legislatures he would publicly oppose gambling racetrack gambling but would privately support their desire to pass gambling legislation. In other words,… Read more »
Where can these particulars be confirmed? Because, quite frankly, I don’t think your anecdotes should be taken at face value as you have an admitted bias.
We all have bias, of course, but Ron’s view of the CR is pretty relentlessly negative, that is for sure.
I would offer an illustration from personal experience which indicates why the CR had to occur. Back when I was a student at SEBTS (’72-’74), and I think it occurred short after or just before I entered the doctoral program. I was talking one day with Dean Brown and Dr. Pruden (Baptist History and former pastor to Harry Truman), and I said, “If you fellows had some verbal inspirationists on the faculty, you would not have all this fussin’.” “Oh, No, ” they said, “we can’t have them.” My thought was, “Well, if you can’t have them, you can’t have… Read more »
Ron:
Did I miss something?
This is Case Study #1, act 2.
I would be sincerely interested to see if you have any thoughts to the questions in my response. The comments are kind of out of order, so maybe you did not see them.
Please tell me we aren’t going to be hearing about the Council for National Policy and the eminent takeover of the United States or Case Studies 3, 4, 5 et al.
It seems to me that the issue over calvinism is resolved, if Bart Barber is to be believed about the appointing of Calvinists and if CB is to be believed about Dr. Patterson and the appointments when he was there. I have looked at the issue in Louisiana and find that that report from the Law Firm suggests that the Board there had better go slow cause the President of LC is treading on ground that could get the Federal Government involved as well as the state government, violating instructions on the use of funds is a big no-no in… Read more »
I try and try to get a grasp on this but I’m at a loss and I don’t want to be perceived as someone trying to start a fight. Lord knows, sometimes I want to throw down the gauntlet, but not tonight. I can only recall in the past few years that the spotlight has been cast towards Calvinists as either a threat, detriment, or enemy to Southern Baptist life. Obviously, there are some who view Calvinists with varying degrees of contempt ranging from apathetic to outright hatred. My only question is this: Why? Why would a group with a… Read more »
John Wylie if you were knowledgeable about the SBC you would already know each of these statements were true. I am sure CB and David Miller are aware of each one. They were each reported in Baptist Press. If you want verification, all you have to do is google each name and you can read about each one for yourself. You said, “I think that Ron is going to continue to engage in these drive by comments and not enter into a serious dialogue about the CR.” These are not drive by. I am here. I have entered serious dialogue… Read more »
Ron, I have been posting comments on here for years as well. Maybe not quite as long as you but long enough. The reason I said that about you is that you have been posting these Case 1 and Case 2 comments and not engaging the questions Louis asked. My expertise has come from having the ability to read and watching the direction that those who left the SBC for the CBF have gone. In 2000 when the issue of homosexual missionaries and employees came up in the CBF a full 40% voted to allow homosexuals. No liberals in the… Read more »
Frank L. said, “The work of Ron Wilson is well documented and vindicated by history. I know Ron very well. I don’t always agree with his point of view, but “slander” is not even in his vocabulary.” Frank did not you know that Ron Wilson was not allowed to be seated by his state convention because of his slander and untrue statements about others.” These are the people who knew him best. Frank do you agree with Ron Wilson that the IMB was controlled by liberals and the missionaries were neo-orthodox and we were spreading heresy for the 25 years… Read more »
I think reason has begun to fade from this discussion, and we would do well to drop it. Ron, I have stated that I do not think that all of the deeds of the warriors of the CR were right and good. I think the cause was just and and necessary. But, you simply focus on, perhaps, a few bad apples. There were a lot of honorable Baptists who believed in and supported the CR. Could you not ever find it in your heart to say one nice thing about CR warriors. We were not all like the people against… Read more »
Ron, I do not really have personal knowledge of the theological views of FMB/IMB missionaries before my wife and I were appointed in 1994. I do know of one missionary who was appointed after me, who, from what I was able to gather, did have neo-orthodox views, and was subsequently terminated from service. Other than that, I don’t know of other examples of liberal/neo-orthodox theology on the part of IMB missionaries, including among the old-timers we did know on the field who began their ministry during the period you mention. Other than that, from what I have been able to… Read more »
Thank you David Rogers. You were with the IMB for I think about 10 or 15 years. The only neo-orthodox missionary you seem to have run into was someone who was appointed well after the CR had complete control of the IMB and he was terminated. If someone had theological views that were out of bounds before the CR they would have been handled the same way. Nothing changed. If Ron Wilson was speaking the truth there would have been plenty of evidence of liberalism among the missionaries you served with when you were appointed. I appreciate your saying you… Read more »
Ron: Liberals could be found. Especially in the European theatre. One of my fellow students who got an appointment to that area was a radical Bultmannian. He didn’t even buy the resurrection. That was in the 70s. And back in the 60s I had two fellows, Midwestern alumni in one instance and a year and a half there in another, sneer at me and say, “You are ignorant for believing in the Virgin Birth.” Then there was the prof at SEBTS who wrote a one page reply to a paper I had written, not one of my better performances for… Read more »
David Miller said, “Could you not ever find it in your heart to say one nice thing about CR warriors. We were not all like the people against whom your ire has been directed through the years. We were not all villains and war criminals.” David I said I will support the CR when they work to rid our convention of liberals such as Paul Simmons, Ralph Elliot and others. That is good. But you yourself said the number of liberals in the SBC was relatively small. 95% or more of the things done in the name of the CR… Read more »
Ron, I think that people could give you example after example after example….and some already have…more than several times….and, you would not believe what’s said. So, what’s the point of you and me and CB and Dave continuing this conversation? We know what we saw and heard back then. We know what was going on….and where the SBC was heading. And, you deny it. So, what’s the point? I could tell you again of the Prof. at Southern, who wrote that anyone believing in the literal, physical resurrection of the dead was crass. Or, the Prof. who was for women… Read more »
Ron: At SEBTS between three of us who were students, we knew of 6 or 7 students who did not believe in the deity of Christ, etc. One student with whom I had a discussion got very upset at the idea of salvation and Hell, and he wanted me to know that his view was as accepted on campus as mine (not altogether, even some of the Moderates could win a soul as one did in one class that I heard about). Another student admitted to a friend of mine that he did not have much to preach, since he… Read more »
I want to answer Louis but it will have to wait until tomorrow. I will state one more time why I don’t support the CR and my challenge to all you CR supporters. There has been no conservative resurgence at any SBC entity I have been associated with because they were already conservative and are no more theologically conservative today that they were in 1979. This includes my home church, association, the Arkansas Baptist State Convention, Ouachita Baptist University, Southwestern Seminary and the IMB. However they have all been attacked by CR leaders. Like John Fariss, I have heard no… Read more »
Ron. I respect your opinion but you are simply wrong. You may simply be ignorant of the liberal elements at our seminaries or you define liberalism differently. I had liberal professors at Golden Gate. I was ridiculed by moderate professors at SWBTS. I have a very close friend that was in Austria when liberal professors were hired regularly. Of course that does not mean all missionaries and professors were liberal. There was definitely liberal problems. To deny this is simply to deny history. In regard to Parks, I think he has shown clearly where his theology lies. I respectfully disagree… Read more »
Like Frank L, I had Liberal professors, but they did little ridicule of me. Mostly they just got angry or upset. That was at SWBTS. I also attended 3 Baptist colleges, two of which had liberals.
Ron: Thanks. I hope that you will acknowledge that I have not challenged your personal experiences or your service at the IMB or other missionaries at the IMB. I have merely brought up some aspects of Moderate leadership and direction and asked if you wanted to comment on that. All I keep hearing is the restatement that you did not personally experience any liberalism, that the IMB missionaries were conservative, and that some conservative people have done bad things. I believe most of us on here have conceded those things. The question, however, has to do with the parts of… Read more »
For Louis. First I want to say that to me the number one proof that the CR was about power and control and not theology is that if it had been about theology it would have united us instead of divided us. We conservatives would have joined you in making stands for conservative theology. We could no join you in carnal political activity such as the attacks on our missionaries and our conservative seminaries such as SWBTS and the appointment of people like Sam Currin, Curtis Caine and many others to influential positions. Louis you said the following up above… Read more »
The SBC Conservative Resurgence was about the inerrancy of the Bible. But you have to have power, authority to make changes. Again, the definitions I listed above are very important. Those on the moderate side would often bring up the fact that some of their moderates believed in inerrancy, therefore the battle was not about inerrancy. That is wrong. Many moderates personally believed in inerrancy but they protected and excused liberals. Moderates saw no compelling reason why all SBC missionaries, professors, leaders must believe in inerrancy. Instead, they would often tell what a wonderful person a suspected liberal was, while… Read more »
volfan I never denied what you say you saw. Why do you deny what I say I experienced at the IMB and SWBTS and in Arkansas.
One last post for David Miller. In the nomination speech for you at the convention last year it was mentioned that you are an MK. I think that might have gotten you a few votes because of the creditability the IMB has with grassroots Southern Baptists. That creditability was earned by missionaries such as your father and me and thousands of others who have served through the years. I hope you will pay us back by defending us against those who attack our theology and integrity. I was also at the 1979 and 1990 convention you said you attended. Let… Read more »
I was also at the Astrodome and the SBC in 1979. To argue because not enough people showed up later (1990) to hear the IMB (FMB) report is a weak indictment against conservatives and the CR. I’m pretty confident a multitude of moderates did not show up either. 1979 also was a special, well-publicized event with Billy Graham on the program. No one can expect that kind of crowd at every IMB event. Should we recognize and praise our missionaries? Of course, and we do, though often not enough. Pastors and seminary students often feel a little lonely and left… Read more »
Dave Miller, It seems to me that the point of this exercise was to demonstrate that the CR was necessary despite the collateral damage. I think you made your point. (1) There were liberals/moderates within the leadership ranks of the SBC who needed to be removed. From my experience, granted. (2) There were solid conservatives who were maligned and/or marginalized by CR operatives whose primary purpose was to gain power for themselves. From my experience, also granted. The real question is what to do now? There are still solid, mainstream conservatives out there who remain relatively sidelined because of the… Read more »
I am late getting into this, so no one may even see my thoughts, which is fine. My experiences lie with the thoughts of several others. Bold Mission Thrust was going to be a reality….the CR killed it. I experienced none of the alleged liberalism when I was at Southwestern in the 60’s. I was taught there to think things through and to live my theology—systematic theology and Old and New Testament profs were major influencers. One of them gave me my first taste of Calvinism, but it was informative and compassionate, and never threatening. There were a host of… Read more »
Thought I would add to Richard’s comments my experience of being criticized and accused of being a Communist, because the folks fired the President of SWBTS, something as Conservative I did not approve and, of course, could do nothing about other than never -participate and let the Liberals just roll right over all the Conservatives like they were nothing which was something I did see happening at SEBTS. A member of my own church blamed me for voting Conservative as the cause for the President being fired, the hand of the Moderates in BSCNC were evidently present, operating real freely… Read more »
Several comments have been made implying Dr. Russell Dilday, president of SWBTS during the Conservative Resurgence, was innocent of denominational politics and unjustly fired.
It should be remembered Dr. Dilday was very, very involved in SBC politics as a moderate. He traveled the convention for a year to try to get an incumbent conservative SBC president defeated. He was directly going against his conservative board of trustees. I’m sure his firing could have been handled better, but he was not an innocent bystander.
David R. Brumbelow
Dr. James,
But my previous comment in no way means I approve of the way your church treated you. I am sorry for it. Christians can act very ungodly. I wish you the best.
David R. Brumbelow
David, I did not say Dilday was altogether innocent. I just said there could have been another way of handline, and that it did effect at least one preacher in a local church. There is great anger in such events, and people have a tendency to lash out at anyone around, as a focus of their anger, a place to lay the blame. I was supporting the Conservative cause from 1959-61 onward, voting at the ’63 convention, etc. The Moderates, contrary to what some seem to think, played hard ball, even dirty ball, but, I have to add, the Conservatives… Read more »
It is at this stage a bit of exaggeration to call the CBF a “main group” of Baptists. The organization has been in decline for years and their national body is about the size of a singe one of the SBC’s 177 megachurches. They fund zero missions personnel, I think, and While I am for anyone who preaches Christ, and understanding that there are some very innovative people involved in the CBF, it is not a major player in Baptist life. They must restructure, reinvent themselves in order to survive while the SBC lumbers along with diminished but still enormous… Read more »
Ron: Thanks for the response. There is obviously a lot of uncovered, fertile ground for discussion, but I believe that such differing experiences make it very difficult to go much further in this format. Cecil Sherman, by the way, was a Texas pastor during most of the years of the CR. I believe he pastored Broadway Baptist in Fort Worth, but I could be wrong about that. He later pastored in Asheville, NC, and then was the first leader of the CBF in Atlanta. Your not knowing of Cecil Sherman or his leadership in the Moderate cause really explains our… Read more »
The ubiquity of Bart Barber. If I could make a case for my perpetual suffering, I might be able to get our Roman Catholic friends to transubstantiate me into something!
Louis, You are right Cecil Sherman was pastor of Broadway Baptist Church in Ft. Worth. That church was recently dismissed from the BGCT for their pro homosexual policies. Dr. Sherman was a member of the Peace Committee and resigned in 1986 because he felt the moderates had “sold the store” in their concessions to the conservatives. Albert Mohler wrote an excellent article on his blog the week of Dr. Sherman’s death. The article is dated April, 23, 2010. In the article he outlines a few of Dr. Sherman’s disturbing theological positions. I highly recommend that people go and read that… Read more »
Cecil Sherman was a good man who heroically cared for his wife in her final days with Alzheimer’s.
He was definitely a leader on the moderate side in the Conservative Resurgence.
And, according to the standard definition used by conservatives in the CR (Liberal, in the context of the SBC – one who believes there are errors, or could be errors in the Bible.) he was a liberal.
Paige Patterson has an excellent review of Cecil Sherman’s book, “By My Own Reckoning.” Everyone should read it:
http://www.baptisttheology.org/ByMyOwnReckoning.cfm
David R. Brumbelow
Thanks David Brumbelow,
For sharing that link. That article was inspirational and it was certainly gracious.
Thanks, John.
Bart, I am sure that I will see you at the Convention, and hope that I get to see your wife and father in law again. Sweet people.
David:
Thanks for sharing the link of Dr. Patterson’s review of Cecil Sherman’s memoir.
Dr. Patterson is quite gracious here.
If frank talk and graciousness govern into the future, we’ll have a bright one.
I have been attending SBC churches since I was five years old (56 years). I did my under graduate work at Liberty University. I completed my M.Div. at Golden Gate Seminary. Finally I completed my MBA at Corban University (formerly Western Baptist College). While at GGBTS I did a paper on the CR. I will admit I was rather naive. I never realized any of this type thing was going on. My home church was Central Heights Baptist Church in Phoenix and attended North Phoenix Baptist Church for a few years before moving to Dallas. I really enjoyed the sermons… Read more »
Your question is only apt if the fight was about nothing of substance. It sounds very noble, and all, but if the issues of the CR mattered, then the battle had to be fought. How many people died and went to hell because many Methodist and Presbyterian churches and other mainline denominational entitis abandoned the basic truths of the faith and stopped proclaiming the biblical gospel of salvation? How many people would have died and gone to hell if Southern Baptists had followed that march into liberalism that blunts the gospel and produces the kinds of things you see in… Read more »
David: I agree with you. I think there is no doubt that something had to be done. All one had to do was to look at the other denominations and see what the so-called liberalism (really modern skepticism) had done to them, taking away their biblical faith, their trust in God, their evangelistic appeals, their missionary zeal, their constructive contributions to civilization, all realities that were really positive despite shortcomings and failures. In the struggles some great scholars were raised up. The denomination that was before Southern Baptists in the struggle was the Missouri Synod Lutheran. All before them seem… Read more »
Hi John,
My question would be what if the SBC had failed to run the liberals out and like most liberal mainline denominations the Gospel was lost how many people would be going to hell then?
John Lawless, You ask, “During all that time when all the fighting was going on how many people died and went to Hell because SBCers chose to put their energy fighting with each other rather than telling them about Jesus?” To begin with, that is an unfair attitude and question. You could ask the same of the Apostle Paul. “Instead of writing 1 Corinthians and reproving and correcting the church, why didn’t you spend that time telling people about Jesus?” There are certainly times we are to be telling others about Jesus. But there are other things we are to… Read more »
And amen to the comments by Dave and John.
David R. Brumbelow
No one EVER died and went to hell because of church controversies.
Christians, churches and denominations can be bad examples. But the salvation of souls is not thwarted by Christians behaving badly.
I have enjoyed reading this post and the comments very much. One thing is certain about the CR, one group has moved on and the other is stilled filled with anger and hatred. My juices got flowing again for the CR. I got online and read many articles concerning the “fundamental takeover of the SBC.” Many of the group that lost are still bitter and angry. We are talking 23 years after victory was declared and some who profess Christ are still carrying resentment. I honestly hate that for them. I can’t imagine what it would be like to minister… Read more »
Louis I thought I ought to respond to your friendly comments. I remember Cecil Sherman and his brother Bill. I do recall now that he was formerly in North Carolina and it was Bill that was in Tennessee. I have given very little thought to Cecil Sherman in the last 25 years or so. Why should I? He was never the major player you have tried to make him out to be. When those on this site make statements like look at the CBF today and you can see what the SBC would look like if the CR had not… Read more »
The point about the Shermans is that they became the early leaders of the SBC status quo, perhaps by default, but leaders nonetheless. My view at the time was that Dilday, Chafin, and the Shermans were not well suited for the task of persuading ordinary SBCers to follow them and not Rogers et al. They were good in appealing to the small cadre of self-described moderates who were accustomed to having their way. Does anyone who lived through that think that more conservative baptists were systematically, though tacitly, excluded from trusteeships, administrative, and faculty positions? We can indeed find egregious… Read more »
Was Cecil Sherman a moderate leader in the CR? Of course he was. I remember it well. But you don’t have to take a conservative’s word for it. Listen to what other moderate SBC leaders said about Cecil Sherman: “A Baptist prophet who challenged…fundamentalism in the ‘80s.” -R. Keith Parks, World Missions leader in the SBC, and later in the CBF. “The most important white, moderate Baptist in the South in the last two decades of the twentieth century.” -Walter B. Shurden, Mercer University. “A man who arguably has been the most important Baptist of his generation.” -W. Randall Lolley,… Read more »
David Brumbelow,
Southern Baptist baptized more in the 70s than they did in the 80s or 90s or the 00s when the CR was in control. Do you ever read where even the CR leaders are concerned over the drop in baptisms in recent years? We were much more concerned about evangelism in the 70s.
No we weren’t. Demographics have changed. Everyone is baptizing less than in the 1950s or 1970s. What you will not find is any statistic for baptisms by CBF churches. If you do then perhaps is could be used for comparison and subsequent discussion.
William,
I am not sure what you are talking about. My statement has nothing to do with the CBF. I am just saying in the SBC that we are baptizing fewer today than in the 60s and 70s before the CR. There is no way to say that the CR has helped evangelism in the SBC.
Your statement was that “We were much more concerned about evangelism in the 70s” and I disagreed. If your measurement of ‘concern’ is in numbers of folks baptized then you have stated your metric and the conclusion that you draw from it. I don’t think that baptismal numbers are necessarily a measure of concern. If it were, we would be criticizing most all of our World A missionaries, not to mention Adoniram Judson et al.
I see no less concern for evangelism on the part of the SBC entities and leaders. Clearly, there are less baptisms.
Dean, I am not sure who you are talking about but I am not angry or bitter. David Miller started this post. He enjoys bringing this all up to discuss fairly often. I don’t dwell on these things but I am glad to share my experience if David and volfan and cb and others here like to discuss it. I often speak in churches and urge them to continue to support the cooperative program and our mission organizations. The SBC is still the best organization for evangelizing the world in existence today. That was true before 1979 and it is… Read more »
Ron, would you please reread my comments once more? I did not say you were bitter but that it is apparent in the articles I have read online the last couple of days that some are. It is evident that if a person is still speaking of an issue and writing continual articles 23 years after their side lost in a landslide that person is bitter. I even found a website given to 30 people who screwed up the SBC. All were conservatives. Such a site is the work of an angry person. You said that I made a statement,… Read more »
Southeastern under Lolley and Southern under Honeycutt were completely controlled by liberals before the CR. The ERLC(Christian Life Commission) was liberal under Valentine. And, many other entities, boards, and committees were completely controlled by liberals and moderates. Oh, they would let the token Conservative be elected to a board, every now and then….to keep the wolves from howling so loud, or to try to give some appearance of being fair….but, they made sure that the vast majority on these boards and committees were liberals and moderates. And, they made sure that the majority of Seminary Profs were liberals and moderates.… Read more »
William, I lived through that and it is not true that the trajectory of the CBF has any relationship to the direction the SBC would have taken without the CR. You can’t give any logical or rational proof of your statement. That is just a propaganda statement the CR apologist like to throw out to try and justify the ethical and moral failures of the CR.
Sure I can: Bill Leonard welcoming lesbians to his theological school; a past moderator of the national CBF saying it is time the organization removed its ban on hiring homosexuals; full acceptance (in principle though not in practice) of women as senior pastors. It is not propaganda, a snarl word if there is one in this discussion, but I freely admit that saying what might have happened is hypothetical. I say ‘yea’ and you say ‘nay’; we both have noses and opinions. I don’t recall anyone here, Ron, certainly not me, justifying the ethical and moral failures of the CR.… Read more »
Amen, William….you have spoken truly.
David
Thanks, Ron. My father in law was very afraid of the CR at first. When he met me in 1985 and learned that I was connected to the CR, he expressed concern. He had a good experience at Baylor in the 50s and at Southwestern in the late 50s, early 60s, and then was on the mission field. He had no experience with the issues being discussed in the CR. He did not like what he read about Adrian Rogers during those years, even though his wife was from Memphis and had good feelings about him. But over the years… Read more »
I had a friend, who went to Southern, when Honeycutt was the President. He left there after a semester. He told me that they talked about Dr. Adrian Rogers like he was the Devil incarnate. He told me of many other things, which made him leave….none were good.
David
Dean, Sorry I did read your quote about hating wrong. You talk about people writing articles 23 years after a cause was lost. It is David Miller, volfan and others on this site that keep writing about this. I just sometimes respond to what they write sometimes I ignore it. They feel need to repeat these things over and over in order keep from thinking about the issues I raised in case study 1 and 2. I could give a hundred more similar case studies but they would ignore them also. I haven’t even mentioned Roger Moran, Russell Kammerling, Darrell… Read more »
Ron, no need to apologize for an honest mistake. Let me see if I can be more clear Ron. From 1975 until 1990 our convention was in a battle between a group labeled the conservative and a group labeled the moderates. Leaders in our convention had no choice, they were forced to be on one side or the other. Dilday and SWBTS were theologically conservative. However, Dilday chose to enter the fight on the side of the liberals. His “Higher Ground” sermon at the convention in 1984 is considered by many to be the time the conflict escalated. He was… Read more »
Dean,
Thank you for sharing the “facts” with everyone, here. Maybe Ron will listen. I doubt it, but maybe he will. But, I appreciate you taking the time to research this, and sharing it with us. It always amazes me when someone tries to rewrite history just becaue they don’t like the way it was, as some liberals/moderates like to do. Thanks for sharing the “FACTS.”
David
The last two pastors that I had felt that they (while theologically conservative) had been “sucked into the CR” through misrepresentations of the goals of the CR. Generally they seemed disgusted with how the SBC was being controlled.
But that was a few years ago.
History is written by the winners and is generally based on FACTS rather than what actually was said and done.
So, Bennett, I guess we can mark you down as one, who didnt like the CR….and, who is saying that every, conservative in the SBC is lying, or misrepresenting the truths of what happened in the CR? Does that about sum it up? For the record, I was involved in it to STOP the liberalism that was controlling the SBC before the CR. I wasnt in it for power, or to be mean, or to just stick it in the face of liberals. I was in it to turn the SBC back to the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus… Read more »
This is why my pastor stayed completely on the sidelines. He is a conservative line by line expository preacher who is consumed by missions, both individually and corporately.
He went to SWBTS and was there when some of the conservative faculty was purged for political reasons alone. It disgusted him and confirmed in his mind that he needed to eschew politics and concentrate on what is important.
Our church remained in the BGCT and works with the BGCT on church plants in our area
So, Eric, when you read the things that Dave describes in the OP, and you see the things that Dean talks about in the comment above, and you read about all the liberalism that abounded in the SBC prior to the CR; you’re okay with it? You think we should’ve just let it go….done nothing? Do these things not bother you? If you truly are a Bible Believing, truth seeking, Believer? that it’d be okay for people, who are denying the virgin birth, or who are saying that there’s errors in the Bible, or who are saying that believing in… Read more »
Bennett, I am sorry your previous pastors felt they were duped. I have no interest in fighting a battle that was settled 23 years ago after 12 straight conservative candidates won in landslide elections – only one was close. However, I hear what you are saying and may be able to add something of value. First of all, the liberalism was real and widespread, especially in our seminaries. Brother, just research the Elliot controversy. Many of our professors thought that any moment the missing link was going to be found and evolution proved and we would look like idiots. Higher… Read more »
Louis, I am glad you and your father-in-law are on good terms. I still wonder what his response would be if you read him Ron Wilson’s quotes and told him you support the organization that put this man and others with his views on the IMB trustee board and others. I suspect if you pin your father-in-law down he would not be nearly as understanding about the CR as you think. Even so, I don’t think he would agree with you about the degree of liberalism in the SBC before 1979. I still do not understand your obsession with the… Read more »
Ron,
Sorry, like I said, I am played out on this one.
I hope that things go really well for you in all that you are doing.
For those interested in more information about the Conservative Resurgence in the Southern Baptist Convention, I’d recommend you read:
1. “The Baptist Reformation” by Jerry Sutton, B&H (Broadman & Holman)
2. “The Truth in Crises” by James Hefley, hannibalbooks.com (several volumes). This series has been recommended by both sides.
3. “A Hill on Which to Die” by Judge Paul Pressler, B&H.
4. “Baptists and the Bible” by Bush & Nettles; Moody Press; B&H.
5. “Anatomy of a Reformation: The Southern Baptist Convention, 1978-2004” by Paige Patterson, SWBTS (baptisttheology.org).
David R. Brumbelow
Excellent post Dave! I agree with this analysis. My opinions aren’t always strange. 😉
Louis, Me too. I will make one last comment to Dean and volfan and then I will stop. Dean, I am glad you were willing to admit the follow which I quote from you in #215 above. “Dilday and SWBTS were theologically conservative.” I hope volfan and others read this and accept your verdict. You then go on to say that Dilday went on to fight on the side of the liberals. That is not true. He went on to fight on the side TRUTH. I know that is a strange concept to many on this site. Leaders of the… Read more »
Volfan, Bennett is NOT saying that every, conservative in the SBC is lying, or misrepresenting the truths of what happened in the CR. We would be saying that about ourselves because we are conservatives. Are you saying there are NO conservatives in the SBC who are lying or misrepresenting the truths of what happened in the CR? I have given many examples. Can you admit as David Miller said that some fleshly tactics were used. Why should we not condemn them and seek to keep that from happening again. We will join you in seeking to remove those who deny… Read more »
This comment stream lost any redemptive value a few days ago, but I was tied up elsewhere and didn’t do what I should have done. I’m going to correct that now. I think there is a lot of delusion out there about the CR. That’s why I wrote this article. Those who assert that aberrant theology was not present in the 1970s in the Southern Baptist Convention are deluding themselves. The evidence for the presence of liberalism in many colleges, certain seminaries and other places is substantial. Those who think everyone in power in the SBC was liberal, or that… Read more »
I received this from Dean after comments closed. Since it is a correction from a previous comment, I am adding it on his behalf:
Ron, I am sorry for attributing the Holy War sermon to Dr. Dilday. It was indeed Dr. Honeycutt who preached it. I apologize to all for my mistake, especially to you and Dr. Dilday. Blessings, Dean