Wm Dwight McKissic, Sr. is the pastor of Cornerstone Baptist Church in Arlington, TX. He blogs at Wm Dwight McKissic, Sr.
While touring the Dead Sea Scroll Exhibit recently, at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary with President Paige Patterson, Governor Rick Perry, and twenty other Dallas-Ft. Worth pastors and Christian leaders, I was privileged to meet for the first time the pastor of the First Baptist Church, Dallas, TX, Pastor Robert Jeffress. Recognizing who he was from television appearances and public photos—upon seeing Dr. Jeffress, I immediately extended my hand and said to him, without introducing myself, “I appreciate your voice of righteousness to our nation.” He also recognized me upon sight and almost simultaneously said to me, “Pastor McKissic, I’ve quoted you across this country, ‘Don’t equate my skin with your sin.’” I then told Pastor Jeffress, I’d heard he was using my quote, and I was thankful that he confirmed that. That’s basically the sum total of our brief chance meeting.
Dr. Jeffress was indeed a voice for righteousness when he described Governor Romney’s Mormon faith as a “cult.” In October 2011, while endorsing Governor Perry for President, Jeffress told reporters, “Every true, born again follower of Christ ought to embrace a Christian over a non-Christian.” Jeffress referred to Romney then as a “conservative out of convenience” who “does not have a consistent track record on the subject of marriage, on the sanctity of life.” He further stated, “I just do not believe that we as conservative Christians can expect him to stand strong for the issues that are important to us.”
Fast forward to today and Dr. Jeffress is still a voice of righteousness believing that Mormonism is still a cult, and that civil rights and gay rights are not proper parallels.
However, Jeffress has made a major switch regarding his initial theology/politics, inasmuch as he now embraces Romney for President-even as a “non-Christian” member of a “cult” over President Barack Obama who is a Christian, but does not hold a biblical worldview with regard to same-sex marriage and abortion. Perhaps, therein lays Jeffress dilemma—an ultimate decision to support Romney.
I can appreciate Pastor Jeffress not compromising his conviction—and one that I share—that Mormonism is a cult. However, my conscience and conviction will not allow me to vote for an individual who on more than one occasion has expressed a certain antipathy toward the poor and who, when given an opportunity to distance himself from the racist history and teaching in Mormon documents in a 2008 Tim Russert interview, Governor Romney refused to do so. Mormon “sacred text” refers to “dark skinned” people as “cursed,” “unattractive,” “filthy,” “despised” and “loathsome.” Voting for Mitt Romney given these viewpoints, expressed in his “Bible,” is a switch and compromise that I simply cannot make. I would rather fight than switch.
I applaud and appreciate Dr. Jeffress being a voice of righteousness on pro-life issues, gay-marriage issues and the civil rights vs. gay rights issue. However, I would be less than honest if I didn’t acknowledge that Pastor Jeffress’ switch is seen by many in the Black Community as inconsistent at best.
Evangelist Billy Graham historically has been a highly respected figure in the Black Community. Long before it was popular, he insisted on his meetings being racially inclusive, befriended Black preachers (including Dr. King) and singers and publically disagreed with Dr. W.A. Criswell’s segregation views, prior to his “open door” conversion. Billy Graham was highly regarded in the home I grew up in and viewed as a man whose heart was in the right place regarding issues of race.
However, Billy Graham’s recent departure from his lifelong practice of not engaging in partisan politics, and his removing the Mormon Religion from his website as a cult has generated a lot of discussion among Black pastors. The impression Graham’s decision leaves is that for the sake of electing Mitt Romney as President, he is willing to declassify Mormonism as a cult and engage in partisan politics for the first time in 94 years of living.
The question many are asking is, “why”? And, why now? If nominal Southern Baptists as Bill Clinton and Al Gore occupied the White House at the current moment, the question is would Billy Graham have made the same decision? (Deletion by editor as requested.)
The Southern Baptist Convention unanimously approved a resolution condemning President Obama’s position on gay marriage and his view of equating gay rights with civil rights—but refused to even bring to the floor for a vote a resolution condemning racism in Mormon documents. The question is why would Southern Baptists approve of one, while rejecting the other? Could it be that on both sides of the racial divide, that our theology is driven more by race, culture and economics than it is by theology, righteousness and the common good? The SBC’s refusal to condemn Mormon racist text aligns itself with the BGEA declassification of Mormonism being a cult. Both decisions were driven by placing partisan politics above theological integrity and accuracy.
This election will leave the country and Christians racially polarized and divided even more so than the 2008 Election. The tacit evangelical endorsement of Mormonism will pay long term negative consequences on evangelicalism and politics. The Graham announcements affirm Black Christians, who vote for President Obama because it demonstrates that political, cultural and economic expediency, sometimes trumps theological and moral considerations in voting decisions. We see this on both sides of the racial divide.
I’ve been asked the question several times, why is it that Black Christians vote for Democratic candidates overwhelmingly in light of the Democrats position on gay rights and abortion? Black Christians tend to prioritize social and economic justice issues (which are also life issues) and they consider those moral issues as well. Black Christians tend to compromise their faith on pro-life and gay rights issues in order to vote for the party that they perceive will best deliver social and economic justice. The White evangelical church in this election is willing to compromise their beliefs on Mormonism and racial and gender accountability in order to support Mitt Romney. Black and White Christians vote for the party and the president that they perceive will best empower them. They simply view empowerment and priorities differently.
For those who ask, how can President Obama be a Christian and hold non-Christian views on abortion and gay marriage?: The answer is the same way Anglo Baptists/Evangelical slaveholders were Christians but wrong about slavery and denying women the right to vote. Make no mistake about it: President Obama and the Democrats are wrong on the issues of gay marriage and abortion. But just as Billy Graham is willing to declassify Mormonism as a cult in order to promote Romney, Blacks have prioritized economic and justice issues in order to elevate poor and historically oppressed people. I have burdens in my bosom concerning both parties. Therefore, I will be content to cast a write-in vote for Jesus Christ, and live with the results of who God sovereignly allows to become the next President.
If President Obama wins, I will take solace in the fact that Republicans will not be rewarded for their blatant disrespect of President Obama. Such as shouting “you lie” to him from the hall of Congress; the Governor of Arizona shaking her finger in his face; Laura Ingram referring to the President as, “you fool”; and I could cite many more disrespectful and racial attitudes and actions displayed toward President Obama, including declassifying Mormonism as a cult.
If Mitt Romney wins, I would hope that he would honor his commitment (though his history does not give me full hope) to stop same-sex marriage in its tracks and actually lead the Congress to adopt a constitutional amendment against same-sex marriage. If that happens, I will be eternally grateful and give God praise that my grandchildren will not grow up in a world where same-sex marriage is considered legal, sane and normal.
Although I’m not a Calvinist, I am perfectly content to trust the sovereignty of God in this election and praise His Name regardless to the outcome. I simply pray as a nation and as a church that we can come together in unity when the election is over.
Bart Barber, Dave Miller and Howell Scott need to be taken seriously regarding this matter of sounding a clarion call concerning the declassification of Mormonism as a cult sooner, rather than later. Is a cult only a cult until one of its members wins a major party presidential nomination and their opponent is a Black Christian who believes in gay marriage and abortion?
Pastor Jeffress and Evangelist Graham have a right to endorse and vote for Mitt Romney for President, just as Pastor Otis Moss and Pastor Frederick Haynes have a right to support President Obama for reelection.
What Billy Graham does not have the right to do is to declassify Mormonism as a cult without the larger evangelical community throwing the “red flag.” If evangelicalism does not throw the “red flag” before the election, that is even a greater sign of our political and racial divide. We ought to be able to come together in unity and make it clear that Mormonism is a cult even if Black Christians and White Christians vote for different candidates. The unity of the faith is at stake here (John 17:21)!
I get tired of race, and the comparisons thereof, being brought into every issue under the sun. All it does is create more division and animosity. If I remember correctly the Graham organization took the reference to Mormonism down because Romney had recently visited and the Graham organization did not want to become part of the political fray. While that seems to have been very effective int he secular world it seems the Christians world just could not resist. Just because the President calls himself a Christian does not mean we need to believe it. I am reminded here of… Read more »
I don’t really want to be confrontational here, Mark, because I share your concerns. But when I (a lily-white Iowa man) say, “I am tired of race being brought into every issue,” it is a luxury I have as a white man. I’ve never been pulled over simply for DWB, “driving while black.” We had a sweet-hearted black man in our church (now in heaven). He had a PhD and was a gentle, kind man. But he told stories of getting pulled over and intimidated by white police, just for driving in certain neighborhoods of town. I’ve never had to… Read more »
When we overplay the racial issue it cheapens it and desensitizes people to it. It has no ultimate value and works against any real racism. By the way, I pastor a church outside of the Navajo reservation. I fully understand racism, if at no other time, here. My children have had to also learn to deal with it. But in the end I do not believe one has to be black to understand it. If you are pulled over for simply being black and have clear evidence then deal with that. But let’s not make something racial when clearly this… Read more »
Frankly, everytime Dwight McKissic posts it’s ALWAYS about race. My son is a black man and he feels the same way. Mark, I concur. I’m sick to death of it. It has no bearing on the issues. We have two choices, neither good. But one is absolutely more evil than the other. One wants me to pay for abortions, and accept what the scriptures call sin. One wants to stop those evil practices, but belongs to a cult. I’m not happy about it. But God has granted me some decision making abilities and above all stopping the murder of the… Read more »
Mark, I offered commentary that I thought would be appreciated here. Too often we talk about each other, rather than to each other. My post represent an effort for us to talk to each other. I was told once on this blog by–I believe–Frank L., to take my commentary to a Black blog. If for any reason my commentary is unwelcome and unwanted here, I will stop offering it. Dave has been gracious and kind in posting my thoughts,and for that I’m grateful. I would certainly understand, if Dave decided in the future, not to post my commentary for whatever… Read more »
Dr. McKissic, I appreciate your voice here. If you are not welcomed by some here, I think it is THEIR problem, not the fault of SBCVoices or David Miller. It is not, nor should it ever become YOUR problem that some people do not welcome that you should speak as a black Southern Baptist pastor freely . . . I hope that you will remain one of the SBCVoices contributors. I think those people who object to what you have to say may actually need to hear it the most . . . and to think about it, and maybe… Read more »
Dwight, I wasn’t going to post again on this only because I did not want to belabor the issue. But since you were kind enough to respond to mine I thought it best to extend the same courtesy. Dwight I grew up with racist parents, mine being from Culman AL. I never could buy into it and found myself on the scolded end of discipline more than a few times. Having lived in AL and parts of Fla I can tell you I have seen what you have mentioned. My concern is using a racial comparison where none fits. It… Read more »
Mark,
I don’t want to belabor the point either. However, where you don’t see where a racial comparison fit, I do. The differences in what we see explains the voting patterns between the two races as well.
Dwight
Dwight, Well I will tell you what happens. Bringing race into situations like this then brings about suspicion and mistrust because of what we see as exaggerated claims which are unnecessary and often miss the real issues. In the need no one talks to each other but only talks past each other. Take for example Christ Matthews a media pundit who after the debate last night claimed those who oppose Obama only do so because of racism. My perception of constantly bringing up racism is that it is most often done, not because of clear facts, but simply because of… Read more »
Dwight, the concept of SBC Voices is that we need to hear from different perspectives in SBC life. Unless you begin to advocate heresy or some other wild doctrine, I will post anything you send me.
I believe your voice needs to be heard.
Dave,
Thanks. I appreciate your labor of love with SBC Voices. I appreciate opinions expressed by everyone on this comment stream and appreciate being able to share mine.
Dwight
Bro. Dwight, Your points about judging the President’s Christian faith, and about the Mormon theology that condemns black people based on the color of their skin are both well taken, and your statement is well said. Most Christians are utterly uninformed about many Mormon teachings, including their eschatology and prophecy. If Mitt Romney is elected, the church will jump on declaring his election as proof of accurate prophetic revelation by their past prophets, and will use it to confirm the correctness of their doctrine. They’ve been waiting for this moment for a long time, and for that reason alone, as… Read more »
Romney does proclaim Mormonism publicly. He is a member of one of the church’s priesthood orders, and served both a two year mission and as a bishop of a local ward. He wears the protective underwear, symbolizing his passage through a temple ritual during which he swore an oath of loyalty to the church and to its founding and living prophets, above all else. If you know anything about what Mormons believe about their future destiny, and their eschatology, you’d be very, very concerned about his position on the Middle East. Would Romney use the power of the presidency to… Read more »
I cannot remember a presidential election that presented as many theological/moral/ethical issues for Christians as this one is doing.
What part does race play in all of this?
Can a Christian vote for a Mormon? A liberal/unorthodox Christian?
What is the spiritual role of the government?
There seems to be no way to escape the issues in this race.
Dave, agreed.
I wrote on it here in a post about two self-professed believers that most Americans don’t believe.
The issue of race is a another subject that we cannot pretend does not matter.
Ed
Gentlemen (and I use that term loosley because I am addressing a group of Southern Baptists), A quote from elections past “it’s the economy, stupid”. To some there may be racial problems, but prove to me that Romney will be anything but equal to minorities. Prove to me, that as a mormon, Romney will attempt to take away my right as a Christian to speak out on the subjects that I believe have moral implications. I for one do not wish our government to interfere in “spiritual matters”. When that happens we have state sanctioned churches that tell us how… Read more »
Jake Barker,
It really is more that “the economy, stupid.”
The current president is ripping apart the very fabric by which this nation is held together. He is a Neo-Pagan and he has surrounded himself with Vandals and Visigoths whose very desire is to rewrite the way of life for every American no matter race, religion, or creed.
CB, I agree with you “but”, the American people are so dumbed down that they can only concentrate on one point at a time. The one that is immediatley critical, is the economy because it affects each of us regardless of race, creed or regionality. At this point in history it (the economy) has the potential to take down this republic and reduce it to ashes. If that were to happen all else in American life would be reduced to mere hypotheses. I would disagree with you as to the current potus being neo-pagan. A neo-pagan believes in “doing no… Read more »
Dwight, I find it simply hard to believe you still call the current president a Christian. Back during the last election, you and I had many conversations about his profession of faith. I directed you to his personal testimony given prior to his seeking the office of the president. His original testimony is not, and I think you may have agreed with me, a Christian testimony. Thus far in his presidency, he has proven to be one of the most anti-Christian presidents this nation has ever known. If you now want to state that I am making judgement of his… Read more »
I’ve been told that I can’t say things like “Obama is not a Christian” so I’ll abide by Huggy Bear’s rules–but
Barak Obama, Dwight’s beloved president, does not believe the gospel that jesus and Paul preached. He believes the gospel that Jerimiah Wright preaches which has nothing to do with scripture and is no more Christian that Romney’s.
I don’t have words to express the contempt I have for Obama–and for anyone who supports him. (cue the cries of “Racist” in 4, 3, 2…..)
Joe, didn’t you notice that Bro. McKissic has said that he was not going to vote for Mr. Obama?
Bennet Willis,
Dwight has stated he will not vote for the incumbent. How about you? Are you giving him your vote?
I’ve almost got you house-broken, Joe!!!
CB, You and I don’t share the same view about President Obama being a Christian. I don’t question whether or not Obama is a Christian, just as I don’t question whether or not Nixon, Reagan, Ford, Carter, Bush 1& 2, or Clinton is a Christian. All of them claimed to be Christians too. And whatever criteria you would use to determine Obama is not a Christian, if you apply that same standard to these men, I doubt if they would qualify either. And no; neither one of us want to go back and rehash that discussion. But because we don’t… Read more »
Dwight, Thank you for your answer. I still consider you a personal friend. However, I feel you are, by your own desires, remaining blind to evident truth about the current president. Of course, we are all guilty of such self inflicted blindness for various reasons and at various times in our lives. Also, I must say that if you were to vote for Jesus in November and He won, He would refuse the position. He is King of kings and Lord of lords and His Kingdom is far beyond this nation, even in its best of times and I fear… Read more »
CB,
Indeed I value you and trust you as a friend and brother. The one thing we agree on is as it relates to this subject matter is: “Come now Lord Jesus. Come now.”
Dwight,
CB believes former President Carter is a Christian–he had is picture made with him. I think I have it on my computer somewhere if you want to see it. I know the ABP has it in their archives.
Sorry CB, just couldn’t resist. 🙂
Here’s the proof:
http://tinyurl.com/cblovesjimmy
Tim and Big Daddy,
I am making an effort to determine which of you is the Vandal and which is the Visigoth. However, I can easily determine that you both are heathens and infidels.
You were looking snazzy next to the always best-dressed Benjamin Cole. But what in the world was Marty wearing? I think I saw that “sports coat” (if that’s what you call it) at JC Penney recently (only shop there to buy Stafford undershirts!).
So far, it has been my experience that 2nd VP of the SBC has no power at all. I am going to attempt to use any power I have to see that picture posted on the big screens at the SBC next year. I will likely fail, but I will certainly try.
I’ll go a step further. We have had Presidents who talked a good game when to came to Christian terminology. But I honestly don’t believe that one can successfully run for president without being an inveterate liar. It will not surprise me in the least that when we stand before God we will not see very many presidents with us, at least from the modern era.
CB, Tim, BDW, I could use a good dose of comic relief this morning and you guys sure supplied it. Thanks. CB, I had forgotten about that picture. You should at least be prepared to say about President Obama what Dr. Land said. Dr Land described him as a liberal, protestant, mainline, Christian. Bart and Chris are willing to sign off on that description; how about you? Of course, Bart uses “The Bart Dictionary,” to define “Christian,” so you may want to consult it before you sign off on it. You may find his definition over on the comment stream… Read more »
Dwight, CB asked President Carter this question to which our President answered in the affirmative. He asked; ‘Would you say that only the blood of Jesus can forgive sins?’, or something very similar to that. Thus, if that is the question you are asking of our current President than I am not sure he would affirm that question? Do you? While I understand that President Obama words speak of Christian conversion I also am confused with his affirmation of Christianity because he is coming at it under the theology he learned from Jeremiah Wright. Wouldn’t you agree that Wright’s “Liberation… Read more »
Tim Rogers:
You and other keep trying to discredit President Obama’s and Jimmy Carter’s Christian conversion, why?
Tom,
Because those presidents honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from him. As it stands, their conversions are not dishonored; they have never had a conversion that can be dishonored.
Hasn’t Jimmy Carter said on more than one occasion that there are other ways to heaven besides faith in Jesus Christ alone?
It seems I remember this coming up several times. If that is the case then Carter’s own words discredits his Christian profession.
I think this same principle applies to Obama based upon what he has affirmed and what he has not affirmed in regard to salvation through Christ alone.
Bro Tim, You asked great questions that deserve much longer answers than I have time to give or space will permit. So at the risk of being misinterpreted and giving a quote that could perhaps be easily used to misrepresent my thinking on these matters, Let me simply say: (1) Would the right answer to CB’s question be a requirement litmus test for authentic salvation? No. The testimony President Obama gave meets in my understanding of Scripture the requirements of salvation. I don’t know exactly how President Obama would answer that question, but being that he and George W. Bush,… Read more »
I was thinking how much our black citizens have gone through, so that they could HAVE a ‘voice’ . . . I remember THOSE days, which thankfully were filmed so that we never forget what people went through so that our country could become ‘our’ country . . . a place for ALL of our citizens to speak without intimidation and fear. Because I am a witness, I AM OBLIGATED to encourage Dr. McKissic to be a ‘voice’ openly as a black citizen speaking for our black Americans. In speaking up, Dr. McKissic honors the efforts of those whose ‘voices’… Read more »
Christiane,
Thanks for understanding and the encouragement. Much needed and appreciated.
Dwight
“Black and White Christians vote for the party and the president that they perceive will best empower them. They simply view empowerment and priorities differently.”
An excellent quote. A lot of people take various positions on a host of issues for the sake of “empowerment.” Popularity, promotion, privilege, influence, reputation… whatever you call it, it amounts to a lust for personal glory. This permeates our culture and is the greatest failure of evangelical leaders — ruining more ministries than adultery, pornography, and financial malpractice. And worse yet, ministries given to it remain, not only intact, but celebrated.
Dwight, Thank you for the link. I’ve learned so much more since I wrote the post that you cited. I’ve now seen the video of Jerry Falwell, Jr., on CNN stating that Liberty University does not consider Mormonism to be a cult. I never thought I would live to see the day. And so, I appeal to you all—whatever outcome is brings about in the voting booth for you, however it shows up in your preaching, writing, conversing—please, please, please, care more about the health of our churches right now than about the health of our nation. The nation cannot… Read more »
“whatever outcome IT brings about int he voting booth…”
I assume you take a similar view of President Bush and his many paths to God salvation-talk?
I was very disappointed in President Bush for that change in his theology. Before he was elected, I heard him give a strong testimony that identified Jesus as the only path to heaven. Then, I am afraid, political expediency moved him in the wrong direction.
The story is too common. We sacrifice our unpopular beliefs to gain political power.
Dave,
I agree with you and feel that such compromises by leaders has greatly contributed to our downfall as a nation. It does sadden m soul.
Gosh, Aaron—I presumed that, taking the position that I’m taking, I wouldn’t get any tough questions from Dems. 😉
But, to reply substantively, Dwight and I have been down this road before. I’m skeptical about the relationship several of our Presidents have had with the Lord. I want to be consistent: If it is a testimony that wouldn’t have me presenting them for baptism in our local congregation, then I’m not going to call it a Christian testimony just because they’re running for high office. That having been said, although I disagree strongly with the many creative ways that people have arrived at their conceits about the wideness of God’s mercy, if a person gave a credible testimony of… Read more »
Jerry Falwell must be rolling over in his grave.
As a longtime supporter of Liberty, I am deeply grieved by the blatant compromise demonstrated by Jerry, Jr.
I can tell you this, though. In Bible classes and in the Liberty Seminary, Falwell’s sad compromise and denial of the gospel has not reached the professor.
“The Southern Baptist Convention unanimously approved a resolution condemning President Obama’s position on gay marriage and his view of equating gay rights with civil rights—but refused to even bring to the floor for a vote a resolution condemning racism in Mormon documents.” I agree we ought to be very concerned when Christians weaken their stance on Mormonism for the sake of political points. But what some Christians do have nothing to do with the candidates themselves. What Billy Graham and others have done are things they will have to answer for, but their actions do not speak to Romney’s qualifications.… Read more »
Bart Barber,
Sickly church=Sickly nation, I agree 100%.
The church has not left it’s comfort zone, since wagon tracks left the church yard. It’s our fault. Thank you..
Every one of the SBC Voices articles about this BGEA cult-removing fiasco has resulted in comments that struggle to stay on-focus… Yes, we (nearly) all agree that Romney would be the better choice. Yes, we all agree that an Obama re-election woud be a disaster. Yes, we all will probably vote FOR Romney. Shoot, I WILL vote for Romney but thats not what should be concerning us here… What SHOULD be concerning us (and I believe it was the focus of all of these articles) is the fact that some who claim to be “gospel” christians have decided to water-down… Read more »
I can, perhaps, appreciate better than most of the others that have written in response to Dr. McKissic his feeling regarding Mormonism and its degrading and racist remarks concerning Black people. The reason I say so is based upon studying Black or African American History as it is called now in undergraduate school, in my M.A. Program, and in my Ph.D. program which I did not complete even though I wrote a Prospectus for A Doctoral Dissertation in Black History. I also did my project for the Doctor of Ministry on Christian Love and Race Relations and that while my… Read more »
Dr. McKissic: I am still waiting for a response
Dr. Willingham, I’ve read your comment three times and I am not exactly sure what your question is. If you give me a clear, succint question, to the best of my ability, I will give you a clear succint answer. At this point, to the extent that I can understand what you are asking, my answer is, I am not advocating a vote for or against Mitt Romney, or for or against President Obama. If like me you find it difficult to vote for either one, I am suggessting one vote for a third party candidate, or do a write-in… Read more »
Dr. McKissic: You practical guarantee the re-election of the incumbent and a continuation of the abortion policies and the sodomizing of America. As anyone knows, a vote for a third party candidate virtually guarantees the incumbent. My problem is I want abortion stopped. After all, it was a nefarious policy developed by the Eugenics people back in the early part of the 20th century to get rid of the inferior people (meaning Black people among others), one of the most vicious policies I have ever studied in history. Much as I despise the racism of Mormon documents that you cited,… Read more »
He did not like it, and neither did we…correcto
Dr. Willingham,
I am only responsible for one vote. I don’t necessarily weight the effect that my one vote might have on the election. I have to live with my conscience, values and convictions. Therefore, I vote accordingly, regardless to the consequences. Thia election poses a dillema for many, like none other.
Dr. McKissic: I appreciate and respect your effort to vote your conscience. It is very likely that most of the respondents to your blog do the same. While I despise the racist idiocy of the Mormon documents, I have to take the fact into account that the Mormons have made some changes in their reception of Blacks. Obviously, if they hope to make any progress among Blacks, they had to do that. I shall not be surprised to eventually see Blacks in the highest echelons of that cult. But in the case of Mr. Obama, I voted against him due… Read more »
First of all, it is pure poppycock to suggest that a vote for a third party, or write in, is a vote for the incumbent. That has been proven to be false by so many different paths, this computer page isn’t long enough to list them. We do not directly elect the president, we vote for electors and it is winner take all state by state. Voting one’s conscience by selecting a candidate that best represents their views, regardless of what chance that candidate may have at getting elected, is not a vote for the incumbent. Actually, from a political… Read more »
Hi Dwight. Long time no see. I wish I could buy you lunch sometime, Brother. You know, you, and Robin Foster, and Dave, and I need to go to an all you can buffet, sometime. We could all go up the buffet, and just hold our plates for a while, and watch the manager sweat. 🙂
David
David,
LOL. I needed a good laugh too. This comment stream has been pretty serious.
Dwight
Liberty U. is saying that Mormonism is not a cult. Wow. This is really getting sad.
Bart, I’m like you in that we shouldnt sell our soul for politics. I’m afraid that many people are doing just that. Hey, I’m voting for Romney, because I cant vote for a big govt., socialist, pro abortion Obama. But, Mormonism is a cult, and Romney is a Mormon; and I’m not gonna sell the truth just to try to get someone elected into a political office.
This is sad. The Billy Graham Association, and now Liberty.
David
David, did you ever think you’d live to see this day?
Bart,
I never thought I’d see the day that homosexuality would be looked upon as okay by so many people. And, no, I never thought I would ever hear of Liberty U. and BGEA saying that Mormonism wasnt a cult. I mean, Moroni? baptism for the dead? Jesus and Lucifer were brothers? green underwear?
This is amazing in a very bad way. It’s like hearing that Gandalf has turned bad, and has become the new leader of Mordorf.
David
Who’s in charge of Liberty? Hophni? Or Phinehas?
Two extremely pampered momma’s boys whose daddy was actually a real stand-up guy. That’s who’s running LU.
I don’t mind someone making a distinction like Ed Stetzer’s where we are clear that Mormonism is not Christianity, it’s a false religion, while avoiding the cult reference because of associations with Waco, but I do take issue with groups like BGEA and Falwell saying it’s not a cult but not making clear that it is a false religion and Mormons are lost sinners in need of salvation
Chris, I do mind the loss of the “cult” terminology. Although I understand the difficulties associated with making suitable differentiation between the sociological and theological definitions of “cult,” something significant is lost when our terminology doesn’t suitably address the fact that Mormons claim to be Christian and emerge from within Christianity. New Testament Christianity treated differently on the one hand those false religions that had no connection with Christianity and on the other hand those false religions that purported to be Christian. The latter received unabated severity. Christ understands and has revealed to us in scripture that we must respond… Read more »
I suppose one reason I don’t mind the shift is because I’m among those that don’t really know how to differentiate the term cult. I’m one of those Stetzer was talking about who associate cults with Waco. 🙂 That said, I understand your distinction and that’s a good point: Mormonism is a false religion masquerading as Christianity. The same, however, could be said of many mainstream groups that claim to be Christian. My favorite example is the United Church of Christ denomination which has to be one of the most pagan groups out there. Should we refer to such groups… Read more »
Chris,
The question is timing: why the “shift” in terminology from “cult” to one of the “four great world religions,” and the distinctions in terminology–theological cult vs. sociological cult–now? Why didn’t these “shifts,” “distinctions,” and declassifications (Graham—Liberty U.) happen ten years ago? Are there any connections to these shifts-distinctions-& the Romney campaign? And, if so,
doesn’t that stink to high heavens ?
Dwight
Dwight,
The statements from Graham and Falwell certainly seem to be due to political expediency, and that needs to be called out. As I’ve noted elsewhere, those men were wrong to do what they did. As for the timing in general, it’s an issue that has risen to the limelight because of Romney. It makes sense that there are more discussions clarifying the nature of Mormonism since Romney’s affiliation has brought more attention to it.
So what’s worse, loss of cult terminology or calling Mormonism the fourth Abrahamic faith on NUMEROUS occasions? There’s some serious inconsistency at play here in the way some have responded to BGEA and Liberty vs. how folks have responded to Richard Land and his fourth Abrahamic faith rhetoric. Land has done more to help evangelicals “get over” Romney’s Mormonism than Billy Graham or Liberty University. He’s done quite a bit to help Southern Baptists and other Christian conservatives view Mormonism VERY differently than they ever have. It’s easy to speculate why Land gets a pass from some on this matter.… Read more »
I wonder what he means by that. It’s certainly a peculiar claim and I don’t see how it can have any historical legitimacy (but in much the same way, Islam cannot legitimately be called an Abrahamic faith). That said, at least he’s still not leaving the door open to Mormonism being considered acceptable. At least, I assume when he refers to it as a distinct religion, he means it does not hold the way of salvation.
Dwight,
I would welcome whatever you have to say anytime, It’s called free speech. Every Pastor exercises their free speech on SBC voices and you are no different. Hang in there brother!
Dwight McKissic said, “The Southern Baptist Convention unanimously approved a resolution condemning President Obama’s position on gay marriage and his view of equating gay rights with civil rights—but refused to even bring to the floor for a vote a resolution condemning racism in Mormon documents. The question is why would Southern Baptists approve of one, while rejecting the other?” I see a big difference in the two. President Obama is currently pushing an agenda in favor of homosexual marriage and abortion. On the other hand, Governor Romney is not pushing a racist agenda and does not believe in or practice… Read more »
Indeed and agreed.
David B.,
How can u say that he does believe in or practice a racist agenda when he says he stands by the “faith of his fathers,” who have never acknowledged or repented of the racist text & the Mormon racist history?
Dwight
Dwight,
Other than his being Mormon, have you ever seen a hint of a racist agenda from him?
Chris,
Are u comfortable with Romney refusing to distance himself from the racist text he consider authoritative?
I don’t see any Blacks apart of his Senior staffing that concerns me. I don’t see any serious relationships or connections with the Black community that disturbs me. During his tenure as a Mormon Bishop, the Mormon church would not allow Blacks in the priesthood & Romney never spoke out against the racist policy while he was a leader, & expected to enforce their racist policy. That disturbs me.
Dwight
Dwight, Exactly how many of his senior staff do you know? I don’t know any and I’m sure the one Romney spokesman I’ve seen as a senior staffer is not the only one. What is the quota of “Black People” required on a staff in order not to be considered racist? I know you make this charge, and you may be correct. Or, you may be stating what you which to be correct so that your assumptions are correct. I think that kind of reasoning is tenuous at best, and perhaps less than genuine. Seems to me you must come… Read more »
Frank L.,
The fact that they are not visible in his entourage is a problem. I’m aware of at least two in his employ. But I am unaware of any significant top level Black staffers. Even if they are there, that does not answer the issues of race in his Mormon racists text that he has never disavowed.
Dwight
Dwight, OK. I get where you are coming from. You have determined Romney is a racist so you interpret anything about him or his campaign accordingly. That is not usually called “evidence.” That is usually called a circular argument, or even stereotyping. I simply do not know about his staff. I do not know of anything he has ever said or done that shows he is a racist. I do not understand why in the absence of any evidence whatsoever, you would not be willing to give him a chance to see what he might do. If you feel your… Read more »
Because he doesn’t speak for or have to answer for all Mormons. If you were to ask a student at Truett Divinity School about the passages in the Old Testament where God ordered the nation of Israel to kill infants, they would say that those reflect a tribal understanding of God and not the God of the New Testament. They’re called Christians but obviously don’t believe the Bible. Prove Romney himself is a racist if you can.
Frank L.,
I’ve never called Romney a racist. I simply don’t trust a man who will not avow the racist text in books that he considers authoritative.
(disavow?)
I’m not sure I see any reason for anyone to call the Mormon history racist at this stage of the game. We all know it’s true. For me however, I’d vote for a cigar-store-indian before I could vote any living breathing human being who could say this: Obama, Senate floor, 2002: [A]dding a – an additional doctor who then has to be called in an emergency situation to come in and make these assessments is really designed simply to burden the original decision of the woman and the physician to induce labor and perform an abortion. … I think it’s… Read more »
Bro. Dwight, What I’m about to ask I mean sincerely and with respect. In 2008 the extreme liberation theology views of President Obama’s home church, Trinity UCC, came to light. Also, Pastor Wright invoked God’s damnation on America and it was played well before the election. Did that give you pause to vote for him in 2008? If you didn’t hold the theological views and statements of President Obama’s home church and pastor against him, why do you not do the same with Mitt Romney? I appreciate the fact that you have said that you can’t vote for President Obama… Read more »
John,
I voted for McCain-Palin in 2008 primarially because of my appreciation for the belief system & leadership skills, background & personality of Sarah Palin. The last time I voted for a Democratic presidential candidate was in the year 1980. Thanks for asking.
Dwight
Dr. Dwight McKissic,
Go back up and answer my question that you intentionally avoided the first time you read it.
CB,
I want to make sure that I answer the question that you’re asking. Would you please restate your question so that I can make sure I specifically answer the question u are interested in?
Dwight
Dwight,
It is comment #10, posted at 12:53 PM.
CB,
I answered your question in comment # 14 above. I hope I answered clearly and specifically.
Dwight
John,
Why did you assume I voted for President Obama in 2008?
Dwight
Bro. Dwight,
I assumed that you voted for Obama for two reasons: (I’m just being honest) 1.) Because you are African American and more than 90% voted for him and 2.) When you came out so vocally against him, I assumed that it was a reversal of a previous decision. That’s how you came across to me. By the way brother, I mean no disrespect whatsoever. I sincerely respect your courageous stand.
John,
Thanks for your honest answers. That’s why dialogue is so important. We simply sometimes don’t understand each other until we’ve had a serious, sincere , honest and seeking common-ground kind of dialogue.
Chris,
“disavow” is correct-avow was a typo. thanks for catching this.
I may not be good at much, but grammar Nazi is definitely one of my spiritual gifts. 🙂
Dr. McKissic,
Thank you for sharing. Your post stated so eloquently what should be so painfully obvious.
I’ve also chosen to vote for neither Romney nor Obama this election cycle. I’ll be voting for a third party or write-in candidate.
Blessings,
John Wallace
John Wallace,
Are you the John Wallace from Dallas that pastored in Garland several years ago, and I had the provelege of preaching for?
Dwight
No. I went to college and SWBTS with David Miller and have the highest respect for him.
Dwight, Thanks for this thoughtful post. It has been helpful and in line with much of my thinking on the dilemma we evangelicals have in deciding how to vote in this election. In regard to the way many evangelicals we admire are back tracking on their view of Mormonism as a cult for political reasons, this is not the first time this has happened. In the mid 80s the SBC executive committee was asked to make a statement in opposition to President Reagan’s sending an ambassador to the Vatican and recognition of it as a state with all the accompanying… Read more »
Is Obama a Christian???
When did he become a Christian??? And who Baptized Him???
Has anyone ever heard him give his testimony in public??? Has anyone ever heard him say that Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior???
Why did he change his name from “Barry Soetoro Obama” to “Barack Hussein Obama”??? In what Christian Church is it the custom to take a Muslim name??? Just asking???
I am asking these questions because after four years the main stream Media still refuses to ask these basic questions of this man… Perhaps Brother Dwight can some of these for me???
Since when did “Barack Hussein” become a “Muslim name”?
I believe that Hussein is an Arabic name and Barack is anglicized version of a Swahili word, a word found in a few languages including Semitic and non-Semitic languages, most notably Hebrew.
And when did he change his name to Barack Hussein? His name on his birth certificate is Barack Hussein Obama, II.
Do you think that the President is a secret Muslim??? Who was born where???
Man, I would consider it a great blessing if we did NOT go down this road.
Greg, President Obama accepted Christ at the Trinity Church in Chicago pastored by Jeremiah Wright. I’m fairly certain he was baptized there as well. I recall reading about him holding a Easter Service at the White House where he acknowledged that Jesus is Lord. I certainly am not an apologist for President Obama’s faith. My only request is(as I have said several times already on this blog), whatever criteria you use to determine whether or not Obama is a Christian, please use the exact same criteria on Nixon, Reagan, Ford, Bush 1 & 2, Carter, Clinton, and John Kennedy. If… Read more »
Agreed. And that standard, in turn, should be the same one that we use in our churches with regard to people of lesser celebrity.
Reagan and Bush II gave a Christian confession of faith. Carter did too. Their confession was quite orthodox, although Carter and Bush II are universalists. But, as for themselves personally, they confessed Christ as Savior and looked to Him for forgiveness of sins. Obama has claimed that he looked to Jesus for forgiveness of sins (see the Rick Warren interview in 2008). He also claimed in September 2010 to have become a Christian by choice after trusting in Christ for forgiveness of sins and that salvation is only by the grace of God. His testimony has been rejected by many… Read more »
Alan,
“…almost all Southern Baptist churches had the same basic racial views as Trinity, but from a White perspective, until around 1965, and we were pretty much okay with it.”
In this comment stream # 95 you said, “Playing patty-cake with Mormonism because we want access to power in the White House is a disaster.”
These are two incredible quotes-two great take-aways–two money quotes.
If every SBC personality had your understanding on these two quotes and your and Fred Luter’s heart and compassion for race relations–the SBC would be a radically different and better convention. May your tribe increase.
Dwight
Let me help.
Here is one video where he shares his testimony and discusses his baptism. Believe him not not, let’s try to get the fact straight.
If I hadn’t read the Falsani interview, that video would be all I would need. That’d do it.
Do you have a link to the Falsani interview? I think I ran across that a while back.
http://cathleenfalsani.com/obama-on-faith-the-exclusive-interview/
Alan,
I have the book. If you want to read it, it is available. I think I may have sent it to Dwight during the last election.
From the Falsani interview: Obama confesses that he trusts in Jesus for salvation of some sort. He has said this in at least two other places that I found while interacting in this thread tonight. But, here is how he explains his understanding of heaven, sin, and salvation to Falsani: GG: Do you believe in heaven? OBAMA: Do I believe in the harps and clouds and wings? GG: A place spiritually you go to after you die? OBAMA: What I believe in is that if I live my life as well as I can, that I will be rewarded. I… Read more »
Bart, I know we’ve been down this road before. And I know that you, CB and I, don’t won’t to go down this road again, nor does David want us to travel this way. So my question is for clarity purposes only. I am not understanding your comment: “If I hadn’t read the Falsani interview, that interview would be all I would need. That’d do it.” Did this interview confirm your existing view of the President’s faith or did it cause you to view him as a Christian? Seriously and sincerely, I can’t tell by your comment what you meant.… Read more »
Dwight, I’m saying that the video, if that were all that there were, would be something that I would receive as a valid Christian testimony. But, as I said above, if he were coming to our church and were to give that testimony, one thing he would need to do is to explain what sin is. I don’t believe that you can have biblical repentance if you don’t have a biblical concept of sin. You don’t have to quote Garrett’s Systematic Theology or anything, but “being out of line with my values” won’t cut it. The primary problem with the… Read more »
That sounds like a works salvattion to me.
David
Dwight, you wrote: “Even Ed Stetzer and Richard Land have taken a softer view on labeling Mormonism as a cult. Why? Stetzer and Land want to label Mormonism a fourth great world religion. Why? Unbelievable!” Actually, that’s wrong. I have no problem defining Mormonism as a theological cult as I did in a story running in the Salt Lake Tribune. However, since most American don’t make the distinction between theological vs sociological cults, I think that is it is more helpful to call it another religion, distinct from Christianity. Feel free to disagree with that, but at least disagree with… Read more »
Ed, After reading again your statement in Christianity Today, I agree that I should have made a distintion between what you said and what Richard Land said. I apologize for not having been more exact and specific regarding what you said. I did link to your statement so that persons could read and draw their own conclusions. My assistant will not be in until 10am tomorrow. As soon as she comes in, I’ll have her to update and correct the statement I attribute to you. Again, I apologize. Having recently been grossly misrepresented by the Associated Press on a story… Read more »
Dwight,
No problem. My view has nothing to do with politics, but it has to do with evangelism. I want to reach Mormons, not just label them. However, it is a theological cult, as is Christian Science, for example.
But, I appreciate your point here and, as I mentioned in that SLT article, I am very concerned if people try to blur the distinction between Christianity and Mormonism. I am actually writing something about that tomorrow, I think.
No problem… and glad to have this dialogue.
Ed
The comments here toward Dwight are pretty ridiculous. How about if we all get over ourselves and take the concerns of another brother to heart? I think that we can all agree that Barack Obama’s presidency has not been good for the church or for Christian values. But, why do we think that Romney’s will be? He is a definite non-Christian. He follows a false religion. His religion has racism written into its sacred texts. He denies the true Christ. Playing patty-cake with Mormonism because we want access to power in the White House is a disaster. Dwight is right.… Read more »
“We,” Alan?
Obviously, you have a mouse in your pocket. You paint your “we” on every one here with a very wide brush.
I made my position on Mitt Romney somewhere above in this comment thread.
Frankly, in this election, as far the American populace is concerned, “Someone has taken the Caddy and left us a mule to ride.”
Alan, when a mule is all “ya got,” you ride the mule or walk. Romney is the only ride available. It really is that simple.
I hear you, CB. I understand the dilemma that “we” are all in. Romney is all we have. So be it. As for the comments toward Dwight, I am talking about those who are calling him out for talking about race. I always say “we” because when I point the finger at someone else, I am usually guilty of the same thing. It is just as easy for me to not think about how others see things as it is anyone else. But, as I read the comments of person after person jumping on Dwight for having the nerve to… Read more »
Alan, Dwight is right. There is a deep racial tension that saturates the SBC like peppers saturate Cajun food. I shared in one of the threads here recently about my quest to find a church to attend and how one of the men’s SS classes I attended the when the lesson material was supposed to be about Jesus and the woman at the well, it became a lament about the horror of affirmative action and why a mixed marriage is an abomination before God. BTW, this particular SS class was not a class full of red-necks and bubbas. It was… Read more »
Just this morning I was talking with my neighbor – a Christian and a Southern Baptist, who was bemoaning the fact that a Black family might move in on our street. He wanted to keep the street all white. We have Black families that live on the streets around us, just a block away. I guess he has taken some solace in the fact that our street is all white. I told him that I didn’t think that color mattered and the worst neighbors I ever had were a White family that lived across the street from me at my… Read more »
When just a few weeks away from a national election, respected and well known ministries and organizations remove Mormonism from a list of religions that orthodox Christianity would classify as a cult, it is difficult for me to see this as anything other than a move toward political expediency at aimed at helping a preferred conservative get elected. Jehovah’s Witness, Scientology, Christian Science, Mormonism all teach a different Jesus… do they not? I don’t see listing Mormonism as a cult as labeling people, but labeling a teaching. If it is a theological cult, what’s the problem in calling that. It’s… Read more »
Amen.
Let me tell yall about a very courageous, man of God. His name is Ed Campbell. He is a white man. He was Pastoring a Church in Philadelphia, MS back in the day when those civil rights workers were killed by the KKK. In fact, one of the men, who did the killing, was his next door neighbor. Also, 2 of his Deacons were KKK members. He didnt know it, but they were. Well, Bro. Ed was elected to serve on the school board, and desegregation hit that part of MS. Bro. Ed was for it….took a stand….faced this giant… Read more »
Thank you for explaining so well why Black Christians would vote for President Obama. I really believed it was only because of race, but I can see how the justice issues would be important. We all are compromising, yes, to a certain degree.
I have really been struggling with how I will cast my vote in this election. I am looking closely at Jeremiah 29:7 as I ponder this. Blessings!
Brother McKissic, Sorry I came to the discussion late but I was away from home at a granddaughter’s birthday in Texas (I live in Oklahoma). As I read the comments, I kept coming back to conclusions I made a long time ago. When we talk about politics, all we talk about are our politics; when we talk about national events involving “race” (e.g. Trayvon Martin), all we seem to want to talk about are the lenses (e.g. stereotypes, biases, worldviews) through which we see things. At some point, if we are to bridge the so-called “racial divide” within the church… Read more »
Jim, I remember you from a previous discussion. Great question regarding, where do we go from here to bridge the divide? I have a three fold answer: (1) Prayer. I know it sounds trite but the Bible tells us to pray about all things. (2) The ERLC of the SBC ought to commission or empanel a group of Black/White/Asian/Hispanic believers to develop a strategy and educational program desihned to adddress and bridge the racial divide.(You would make a great panel member if this idea ever take route.) (3) There is a interracial group forming to look at identifying a Presidential… Read more »
Brother Dwight, I like your suggestions. Prayer is especially effective because it moves us out of our perspectives and allows us to see things as God sees them. God does view it differently. As for the ERLC you are absolutely right: we, as the church, need to find a way to speak and teach about it, at least among ourselves in ways that bring us together. It can be done but we have to do it and the ways you suggest are a great start. It is simply not enough to say we have president of this or that color;… Read more »
Jim,
Since Dave is one of the vice presidents of the SBC, it sounds like a good question for him: how do we get the SBC to move on this issue?
Dwight,
1. “Black Christians tend to compromise their faith on pro-life and gay rights issues in order to vote for the party that they perceive will best deliver social and economic justice…”
Are you saying that “Economic Justice” trumps “Black Christians” Faith and Values?
Help me out a little here… Just what is “Economic Justice” and just how do you see Obama and the Democrat Party delivering it to the Black Community? As far as that goes… is “Economic Justice” something only the Black Community is entitled to?
Greg, Martin Luther King often quoted the verse in Amos: “Let justice roll down like water, and righteousness as a mighty stream.” Luke 4: 16-21 comes to mind where Jesus clearly expressed that his ministry had a message for the poor and the oppressed. That kind of language resonates with a people who have been racially and economically systemically oppressed.”Economic Justice” is a faith value of Black people. By economic justice I mean equal pay for equal work; access to government jobs and contracts; opportunities for promotions not restricted by color or gender; fair lending and banking practices; non-discrimination in… Read more »
Dwight, Being 48 years “young” I guess I missed out on this whole economic injustice thing… Me and my best friend in high school (who was black) got paid the same amount for working our buts off at the mill after school each day. Anyway, do you think the Black Community really thinks that Romney and the Republicans will usher in a new age of Racial discrimination in work place? I just don’t see it… And when do you think the Black Community will be able to put the past behind them and move forward? Are we one, two, three… Read more »
Greg, The issue is, could you and your Black high school friend been treated the same if you all had stayed with that company and tried to advance to the top? That’s where statistics and history show minorities are treated differently. Historically, the Republicans have been less willing to provide the level of a safety net that the Democrats have been willing to provide. The Republicans generally oppose affirmative action. Many Republicans oppose the Lily Ledbetter act which is a travesty. Judges appointed by Democrats tend to render more favorable rulings to minorities when the matters are ajudicated, therefore, minorities… Read more »
But Dwight…
What small government has ever required believers to say “Caesar is Lord?” It seems that every governing philosophy ever envisioned that has enforced communalism seen itself as “greater than thou” – I could name off a grand number of examples. I find it interesting that the “Big Government” party removed the lone reference to God in its platform documents. When government becomes big, history has shown government then becomes God.
Rob
Rob,
If the vast majority of believers who don’t support abortion and gay-marriage, of all stripes, can find enough common ground on the justice and small–big government divide–we will experience a change in our body politic unprecedented, and one that has the potential to represent the Kingdom of God–without calling it that. Hopefully, the frustration over this election will begin to lead toward that end.
Your answer Dwight has a messianic flavor – the same flavor when then Senator Obama said that if elected that history would conclude that at that moment would be the beginning of the trend that the seas would start to recede and the planet would begin to heal 🙁 I am glad you clarified your “Kingdom of God” comment. Only Jesus Himself can bring Shalom to our broken world of sin. But then again that may be the pre-millenial in me. You have a lot more faith in the human condition than I ever could hold. 🙂 As you have… Read more »
Because they, along with people who have sense and the Apostle Paul, believe that people who are perfectly able but too lazy to work for a living shouldn’t be fed, clothed, and housed with money taken from the pockets of people who are willing to work for a living.
Not all those who depend on government assistance as “too lazy to work.” Some work very hard for many hours yet are paid wages so low that they still need and qualify for help.
That may be with a minority. What ever happened to working two or three jobs instead of a hanout?
Frank: I have had several times in my life, when I worked two jobs. There was one period, when I worked two jobs and went to school too. The problem with that kind of labor is that you violate the laws of God about abusing the body He has given you. There is also the reality of economic justice, of pay too low for the work demanded, pay which is insufficient for anything more that mere survival. There are those employers who, if left unchecked, would gladly enslave the workers or leave them with little or nothing for their efforts.… Read more »
If back breaking work violates God’s laws then two thirds of the world’s people are ungodly.
Only in America would one make such a statement.
Frank L: That statement of yours is not exactly kind. I certainly was not saying that people who have to work like that to stay alive are ungodly. I was simply saying that it breaks natural rules/laws or whatever you want to call them for the body. I remember working to the point of exhausting, to the point where I saw a halo around every light and was terribly irritable. I also remember working so hard on the farm, when I was about 10-12 years of age, for a couple of days that I wound up sick in bed for… Read more »
Dr J. How is it unkind to point out your whining only plays in America.
I’m not being unsympathetic. I’m being realistic. Life is hard for many, in fact most people. You must do what you have to do.
Frank L.: My! I seem to have elicited your cruelty streak. You remind me of my childhood friend’s old dog that tore a plug out of my thigh, but I forgave him as he tore a plug out of both thighs of a fellow who was my enemy. You must be a weak, knock kneed pushover with no vitality, if you have not the mild of human kindness in your breast. Only the weak and folks suffering from control problems (they got to control everything and force it conform to their expectations) with hold sympathy for the underdog. It is… Read more »
Dr. J. I hope you are not intending to charge me for your psychiatric analysis.
Why you feel compelled to make this personal, I really don’t know. Why you think you know whether I am kind or not, I really don’t care.
Calling me sociopathic pretty much goes over the line it seems to me. How about we just agree not to engage one another rather than resort to such a nasty analysis of someone you know not.
Well, Frank L., you accused me of whining, and I get up tight when a fellow who claims to be Christian has no compassion and not even the sense of it.
Frank L., you went over the line in accusing me of whining, when I spoke up for the working poor. Jess mentioned what it had cost him to follow the path you are approving. I never saw any ounce of compassion on your part. Are just cruel to the nth degree. I once listed the different kinds of work I had done in my life up to that point (1989 or ’90). It was a grand total of 135 different kinds of jobs. When I was 15 or 16 I worked in a meet cooler that a number of men… Read more »
That’s a nice story but has nothing to do with advocating welfare as a family business.
You make charges with no evidence and defend it with a story with no relevance.
I have always assumed you were a stand up guy who loves people and loves The Lord.
I’ll just leave it at that
God bless
Frank L.: You do rattle. You might want to consider the aid to a Black woman in Chicago and her son. He went on to become the leading peditrician neurosurgeon at John Hopkins Med. Center, Dr. Ben Cross (I think that is his name), who also speaks out against abortion. And then you ignore Mr. Alford;s remarks about how much such labor had cost him. I thought you were suppose to be Christian and have compassion. What you migh not realize is that there are no jobs left for our children and the masses of Southern Baptists in the future,… Read more »
Sorry to offend you by being gracious.
Feel free to ignore my blessing.
Frank L. :When you needle someone, your blessing hardly seems gracious. Personally, I do not like to get involved in such give and take. It is such a waste of time. While we are discussing a matter, how about replying direct on the issue. I mentioned, for example, Bro. Alford’s injuries due to such labors, and you never commented on it. In teaching, especially with reference to an issue, one is taught to stick to the subject, not make asides which are distractions, intentionally or note, which divert attention afrom the issue and its resolution.
Dr. J. Why would you want to discuss anything with a sociopath?
I have no comment.
The problem with that kind of labor is that you violate the laws of God about abusing the body He has given you. Oh give me a break. If I need to work more to take care of my family better, by gosh I’ll take another job and God will not count that as a sin. That is utter foolishness. There is also the reality of economic justice, of pay too low for the work demanded, pay which is insufficient for anything more that mere survival. Not all jobs are intended to provide a living. It is not economicly unjust,… Read more »
Not all those who depend on government assistance as “too lazy to work.” Some work very hard for many hours yet are paid wages so low that they still need and qualify for help. And it’s fine for them to be helped. But they shouldn’t expect nor should they be given the best there is to get of anything. Health care? County health clinics? If it’s really bad (cancer) some doctor, hospital, or church should donate what is needed. Food? Some lady came in a Papa John’s that I managed. She was obviously poor. Told me “Man, I sure do… Read more »
especially for the sake of their children . . . people will do anything for their children, even go on foodstamps . . .
God bless the men of our country who started the Food Stamp program.
So many children will be able to eat tonight, as a result.
L’s,
It is not true that “people will do anything for their children.”
If that were true, people who embrace false religions, live ungodly lives, are unfaithful to their spouses, will not work for a living, lie, cheat, and steal at every opportunity, upon hearing the biblical gospel, would abandon their false religion and repent of sin and believe the biblical gospel.
The fact is, a great number of people, in this country, will not do anything for their children.
L’s, have you, as of yet, repented and believed the biblical gospel and abandoned a false religion?
Joe, while there are people who love to get handouts and don’t want to work, the big problem we are facing today is that there are no jobs for three very big reasons. One, automation. Two, computerization. Three, robotics. About Jan. ’91, I wrote an evaluation of some materials provided by the Vocational Director of the County School System in which I was employed as an Industry Education Coordinator (a governmental term for career counselor, I suppose). What she provided from a Conference on Jobs which she had attended was quite hard to swallow. The problem was this: There would… Read more »
Doc J,
Autos are my speciality. The reason for robotics? Everytime union contracts up for re-negotiation human workers screw thing up on purpose to get the manufacturers to conclude negotiations to the unions favor, much fewer sabotage events when union happy. Robotics just want a little lube job every now and then and maybe an updated software program. Proof look at GM in 1977, warranty costs through the roof, conclude negotiations to union favor, warranty costs return to normal albeit too high.
Jake my mentioning of robotics had nothing to do with unions. It was the fact that they take away jobs. Robotics, computers, and automation, all have produced a situation where jobs are going to be scare as hen’s teeth. And some folks don’t want the folks around that use to do the jobs now down by the above. Think carefully.
And yet we cannot un-invent robots and automation. Companies that stand on principal and use human labor instead of cheaper, more efficient and more effective automation will gain accolades for the short time that they remain in business, and then those people will be out of work anyway. It is the same with outsourcing/offshoring. We can’t make the world a bigger place once more.
So what do you do with the excess population? Do what the question asked that my son at the age of 11 encountered on the computer at a school trying to recruit him in 1983? The question was: “If you had an over-population problem with a country in Africa, how would you handle it: a. Have a war and kill them off? b.Use an infectious agent, germ or disease and kill them off? c. Let them starve?” Our son did not want to go to the school, and we did not like it either. Please observe all three answers are… Read more »
This question, James.
“So what do you do with the excess population?”
I have no idea how this relates to my comment.
will best deliver social and economic justice…”
But Dwight,
A few weeks back you made this HUGE production about how social and economic justice is not to be equated with left-wing government handouts and how I was SOOOOOO wrong to DARE suggest that’s what you meant. So which is it?
Joe, Would you be specific as to what I’ve stated that support your contention that I’ve contradicted myself? Are you suggesting by the quote “will best deliver social and economic justice” that Republicans have absolutely no commitment to social and economic justice? Are you suggesting that Republicans are against any handouts at all? In order for me to address your concerns I need you to be very clear as to what specifically–by referencing a full sentence or thought of mine–that you are charging me with being inconsistent with. Thus far you have stated absolutely nothing that contradicts any statement that… Read more »
Rob and Joe, Much of what I say here, # 123 is not necessarily representing my sentiments. I am attempting to convey the sentiments of those who historically vote Democratic. Inasmuch as the last time I voted for a Democrat was in 1980 for President Jimmy Carter, I obviously don’t fully embrace those sentiments, but I fully understand those who do, and respect their viewpoint, and how they arrived at their viewpoint. It is easy for those who were not “victimized” to talk about “letting go of victimization.” Should not the victim have a say-so in the matter of letting… Read more »
For the record I did say “some” of the victimization. I conceded my lack of empathy and understanding yet you glossed over that. My attempt was that “compromise” you say you seek, but do you really? A friend of mine was in a terrible accident which left him partially disabled. Rehabilitation would take a painful ride, which in the beginning both mentally and physically he was unwilling to do. He preferred that everyone feel sorry for him, and do everything for him that he could not/would not do for himself. His physical therapist thankfully was of another mind. The therapist… Read more »
The tough approach works in some cases. The hardest part is to recognize those who will be even more ruined by it as in blown away. It is sort of like the freudian and ta boys back in the 60s and 70s. They leaned heavily, and they also used it for their own agendas (as in sex) and it blew up on them in court cases. It is like the realization that EDM can help with PTSD.
It is easy for those who were not “victimized” to talk about “letting go of victimization.” Cry me a river. When I found out my wife was pregnant with our daughter, I was working a dead end job. I knew I couldn’t do for my child like I wanted to. We were barely treading water, but since it was just us, we were not too worried. So, I did this crazy thing. I went back to school so I could get a better job. Imagine that!!! Now we’re not rich by any stretch but the bills get paid, food gets… Read more »
Joe: don’t be so hard on the victims, unless you have been one. We all need a helping hand now and then. I have worked in welfare in two states. There are those who would do anything to get on and stay on. There are those who want only a helping hand, and that is the poor who have some biblical and Christian background. But face the fact Joe. The Candidates ain’t telling you the truth. Jobs are scarce as hen’s teeth until we find a new way to put people to work, give them jobs that have meaning and… Read more »
Dwight McKissic, I would like you thoughts on this issue. Four years ago the people of this country were so angry at the Republican party, and President Bush a change had to be made. So we now have our first black President. President Obama is doing a wonderful job with the economy. When the President came into office the economy was worse than anyone imagined. The Republicans fought against the President tooth and toenail. The economy improved despite the Republican efforts to make the President look bad. I know you Republicans are up in arms right about now, but it’s… Read more »
Jess Alford,
What country are you living in? It can’t be the US.
Could you come to our food pantry this Thursday and tell all of our unemployed folks how wonderful the economy is? We need President Obama to treat the poor well: There sure are a lot more of them since he took office.
Jess,
If I were going to cast a vote for President it would be for President Obama. My reasoning would not necessarily be based on the reasons you gave, between those two personalities my instincts(guts) simply trusts President Obama more-so than Mitt Romney, and it has nothing to do with color. I hope I answered your question. If not, let me know and I will try again.
shown not shone – correcto
I didn’t say the economy was wonderful, I said the President was doing a wonderful job with it, he is making it better.
Bart Barber
You know what shape this country was in when the President took office.
The economy was still going down hill for a while after he manned the helm. Now things are beginning to pick up. You should be happy.
I’ve studied every economic downturn since the Panic of 1837. We’ve faced much worse economic situations before in our past. The President has not managed to bring about economic recovery any more quickly than it seems to happen naturally…and it STILL hasn’t happened. That, in and of itself, wouldn’t make me judge him harshly. People act like the President can just make a speech or change a policy and suddenly people have jobs…as though my own economic destiny has nothing to do with how early I go to work on Monday morning and how hard I work when I get… Read more »
For what it’s worth, previous presidents in economic turmoil generally had the benefit of a cooperating Congress. The New Deal was one heckuva stimulus, btw. And for much of the New Deal, FDR had both parties on his side. It was the Supreme Court that was his enemy. Also, it’s completely asinine to act like Republicans do not share serious burden to our nation’s fiscal struggles. TWO WARS, Dr. Barber. If we’re in the business of being objective, then we’ll probably admit that neither party nor any politician has served as well over the last decade. Placing the blame solely… Read more »
I agree, Aaron. The question before us, not raised by me, was whether President Obama had done a wonderful job with our economy. He hasn’t. Neither did President Bush. And I suspect that Romney, if he’s elected (and I’m not convinced that he will be), will perform as President in PRECISELY the manner that you have predicted.
BDW: When one outfit controls both parties, you really don’t get much of a change. Socialism is still socialism whether it be that of Fascism or Communism. You probably would have enjoyed (?) studying under one of the leading theorists for world communism as I did (?) about 45 years ago.
“””When I vote for Obama for the fourth time””””
Do you mean in this election?
Democrat: never let dying keep you from voting
This will be the fourth time that I select the box next to Barack Obama’s name, press the Cast Ballot button and receive my free sticker afterwards.
Although this will be only the second time that I cast my vote for Obama at the Hewitt Church of Christ. The first two times I cast my vote for Obama at the First Baptist Church of Hewitt.
Two wars supported by a bi-partisan Congress and (at the time) a majority of the American people, done so as an aftermath to the hijacking of four airplanes and the consequences of the same – I at least thought that Afghanistan was a war the Democrats supported Aaron, though I might be wrong there :-). Republicans are not the only ones to “blame” for the economic consequences for “two wars.” But we CAN totally blame the Democratic Party for the economic abyss for the last four years – of which the two main drivers of our debt problem (Stimulus and… Read more »
Rob, It wasn’t just the wars. President Bush’s major expansion of Medicare has contributed to our debt problem. As for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, I’ll frame my opinion according to Just War doctrine: 1. Just authority: President Bush did have the authority to prosecute these wars. 2. Just cause: As you have accurately noted, the 9/11 attacks constitute just cause to prosecute a war against somebody, so long as it is the correct somebody. That covers Afghanistan. With regard to Iraq, this all hinges on whether just cause existed for the First Gulf War. Saddam Hussein refused to… Read more »
Agreed Bart with most of your analysis. The Medicare expansion proposed by President Bush (which I did not support) is another of those budget busting expenses which today we have no answer for.
My comment was filed against Aaron’s absurd assertion (implied) that Republicans alone were responsible for these wars. The wars were truly a bi-partisan effort in which Democrats only withdrew support once they became unpopular – but even then economic support of the wars were continued on a bipartisan basis.
Rob
Rob,
I agree that ownership of the wars is bipartisan.
Given the context and briefness of my comment with regard to the wars, I think you were rather uncharitable (to be charitable) to jump to such strong conclusions about what I supposedly “implied”
Nowhere did I use the word “alone.”
And to be very explicit, you are indeed wrong. I believe that many Democrats do share responsibility for both wars.
I’m not sure that we did exactly what we needed to do.
I think the problem, Bart, is that pretty much since WWII, we haven’t gone into a war with the idea of “Let’s win this”. It’s more like we’re playing patta-cake and the enemy is actually fighting a war. I understand that we don’t want a bunch of civilian causalties, but we have the military ability to decimate the enemy forces and we havne’t done so.
“Also, it’s completely asinine to act like Republicans do not share serious burden to our nation’s fiscal struggles. TWO WARS, Dr. Barber.” I guess it was uncharitable of me – but looking at the statement above (and your argument before) one can come to the conclusion that I reached, no? Thank you for your further insight as to your meaning. I am interested in your silence to my assertions however. You must also agree with me seeing you said nothing to my direct assertions as to the main culprits for out of control budgetary fiscal policies of the past four… Read more »
Here are a few of my theories, Joe: 1. I think war is more evil when it doesn’t serve any higher principles. The United States of America should stand for an approach to fundamental human rights (the real ones, not things like a purported right to an MRI) that guarantees things like religious liberty to all people. If we have to go to war in a nation, we should have as one of our primary objectives the export of our values to that nation. Multiculturalists will be against this, but they’ll be against the war under any circumstances. A war… Read more »
BART,
our military doctors and nurses really helped civilians in Iraq when they could . . .
my own niece, a Navy nurse, volunteered her time off to work with other American military female nurses to care for Iraqi women and children. As the Iraqi women were not comfortable seeing male doctors, many were helped by young American female nurses like my niece.
much good was done,
we can be very proud of the service of our medical people in the military who volunteer among civilian populations
Rob Ayers,
So my decision not to respond to your assertions means that I agree with you? Really?
I chose not to respond to your other assertions because I don’t enjoy interacting with you. Since we’re in the spirit of being charitable, I’ll leave it at that. Thanks.
Christiane,
I’m sure that what you say about our military medical personnel is 100% true. And yet, to meet the test of proportionality, you’d have to show (1) that providing humanitarian medical assistance was the reason why we declared war against these countries, and (2) that we healed more people with our medicine than we killed or wounded with our weapons.
I think you’ll have a hard time doing that.
Aaron,
How wonderfully tolerant and loving of you! For the record I have always enjoyed talking things over with you.
Grace and Peace,
Rob
Bart Barber,
I’m beginning to think you are a Republican. You must like grits, I don’t.
Jess,
You’re comment is a very revealing one, I think. I present a research-based, numbers-driven critique of President Obama’s economic record. Because I have done so, you conclude that I am not a Democrat. I think this is very sane on your part. It reveals that objective analysis of this President is incompatible with membership in your political party.
John Wallace,
I agree with you 100%
I’m joining a bit late, but if I understand Dwight’s argument, then Obama should be considered a Christian because he claims to be one. By that low threshold, we should consider Romney a Christian as well as he also calls himself a Christian and accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior.
I don’t see any practical difference between Obama’s Liberation/Inclusivist Theology and Romney’s Mormon theology — both result in a false gospel and thus, despite both their claims to the contrary, we should not be basing our vote on either’s claim to be a Christian.
I agree – we should focus on what is important on what is important – that is the promotion and promulgation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Kingdom.
Christians should be asking themselves in the light of these two lost candidates for President = “which promote policies which will allow for the continued freedom of the church to share the truth given to us?” and “which candidate shares our values in terms of responsible citizenship and moral righteousness?”
The answer should then lead us to vote our conscious before God.
Rob
Gospel clarity is at stake in this discussion. As you look across the evangelical landscape, it seems that people on both sides of the political aisle are willing to allow the gospel to be muddled, if not outright abandoned, for the sake of their preferred candidate.
If we lose the gospel, we’ve lost — no matter who is president.
Hammer, meet nail.
That just about sums it up.
Dr. Willingham, Excellent! I agree! Yet I’m not completely hopeless about the prospects of reversing this trend. There are conservative groups in Silicon Valley and other places that are trying to solve the problem because they see it as destabilizing our society. They are using private equity (often employee contributed) to start innovative companies with higher employee vesting than the traditional Wall Street model. They believe that ultimately these companies can be more competitive than the Wall Street giants. If this model can work it’s way into the service sector, where the overwhelming number of new jobs are being created,… Read more »
Pardon me, I wanted this to post below #150. Don’t know what I did wrong?
O yes, some fellow got very upset with me, because I hold to the conspiracist view of history. He cut me off from all fellowship. Of course, he was not raised around a fellow who had know the first Roosevelt and had charged up San Juan Hill with him, had known MacArthur from the time Doug was a shave tail fresh out of West Point in the Philippine War, had served and won a battlefield commission as a 2nd Lt. in WWI, and was in Intelligence on MacArthur’s staff in WWII (no, he did not hob know with the Generals.… Read more »
I was a member of the Teamsters, the International Assn. of Machinists, the International Shoeworkers Union, etc. I have also worked in a factory in a non-union, right to work state. There are pros and cons about the unions. I know of Unions that protect lazy workers (at an oil refinery in Ky. a fellow punched in and went to the toiler and sat there for 8 hrs and punched out…a union member said let the company fire him..we have to do his work, they would not). I know many stories like that. But let me tell you one about… Read more »
Bart Barber,
That was funny!
This thread really saddens me for a number of reasons. Our political system is obviously broken. There are no exciting, god-honoring options before us in the Presidential election. But, this discussion has revealed something about how the slippery slope of moderate theology works. What does a card-carrying moderate who decries inerrancy and has been an outspoken opponent of conservative views have in common with the previous president he endorses: gay marriage, killing babies even while they are being born, lying to cover up complicity in the deaths of four Americans by a terrorist attack, and raising the deficit more than… Read more »
Here, Here!
Rob
Theological liberals are ALWAYS political liberals. The only people who are theologically conservative that vote politically liberal do so in support of the government handouts given by the left, or what they call “social and economic justice”.
Joe, I’m not sure I agree totally. I don’t think a true conservative would take handouts under the guise of “social and economic justice.” I’ve been in a situation where I had to work multiple jobs to feed my family. My kids went without braces, for example, while those whose family business was welfare received them free of charge. This would have included “glasses,” but fortunately my kids did not need them at the time. By the way, not only was I working two jobs, but so was my wife. I just would not consider asking my Uncle Sam for… Read more »
By the way, Joe. Just so people don’t think I mix politics and religion, I told my people at least a dozen times that because of IRS rules, I absolutely would not tell them they should vote for Romney. I just won’t do that. I pointed out in fairness that even if I consider Obama obysmal, I would not tell them to vote for Romney. I just won’t do that. Regardless of whether I feel Obama has been a national disaster politically, economically, socially and spiritually, I absolutely would not tell them they should vote for Romney. I just won’t… Read more »
Dwight, I’ve contemplated your proposal for a broadly appealing candidate for conservatives. I don’t know how that might work out. For example, your watershed issue is different from mine. Your watershed issue is racism. My watershed issue is abortion. You also have mentioned social and economic justice. You have not said much about the issue of abortion. At first blush, I think: there should be no problem finding such a candidate. Then I think, but why have we no found such a candidate? I think historically being anit-racist and pro-life have not always been compatible watershed issues, when mixed with… Read more »
Frank L.
Frank I’ve worked two jobs and it was too hard on me physically and mentally. Do you remember when Bob Dole was running for President,
he said it used to be that one person’s income could feed a family,
Now it takes a husband and wife working and they still have a rough time.
When I get to Heaven, I probably have a few choice words for Adam.
Frank, I believe things will get worse, regardless who is President.
If they would legalize Kentucky’s number one cash crop the financial problems of this country would go away. LOL,,,
Jim,
I never said it was easy. I agree that working hard to feed one’s family is too mentally and physically exhausting for people these days.
That’s my point.
We need to get back to a time where we are raising a new crop of winners instead of the tired crop of whinners.
One of the things that really scares me is deregulation. The Republican party wants to do away with many regulations that we so desperately need. For instance wall street, we as a nation can’t have wall street to mess up again. I don’t want new buildings to fall to the ground because contractors cut corners and got by with it. I don’t want a new bridge to fall because the metal wasn’t tested. The mines in this country need inspectors to keep the workers safe. We need OSHA, and MSHA. We need building inspectors and food inspectors. Companies will make… Read more »
What will be happening two weeks from today if Mitt Romney wins the Presidency because Southern Baptists and others who many times in the past called Mormonism a cult decided this what not nearly as important as electing him to the Presidency?
What will be happening two weeks from today if Mitt Romney wins the Presidency because Southern Baptists and others who many times in the past called Mormonism a cult decided this what not nearly as important as electing him to the Presidency?
They will be making a good choice and the right choice since (a) the two options are both non-Christians. Obama isn’t saved. and (b) it isn’t necessary that a person be a Christian in order for a Christian to vote for him.
dr. james willingham
You are 100% right. God only intended for us to work 12 hours a day.
Jesus said are there not 12 hours in a day.
I have worked 16 hours a day, I didn’t like it one bit. Now that i’m a senior citizen, I’m paying for it with my health, and I’m paying dearly. I agree with you we should have compassion for the working poor. Sometimes I think Christians are some of the most selfish people in the world. Not all but certainly more than I want to count.
Apparently, Frank L. bears you out.
dr. james willingham
I would appreciate your opinion on an issue. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such prejudice against one man as some members of the Republican party have against the President. Donald Trumph said that the President has been monkeying around with the unemployment figures. Sarah Palen said something about shuck and jive against the President. Sinunu or how ever you spell his name said the President was lazy. I’m sick of all the lies being madeup and told about the President. What are your thoughts.
Jess: I think they are frustrated and feel a sense of betrayal, especially if they voted for Obama. I voted against him on the grounds of abortion…I had wanted to vote for him simply because he was black, but he violated one of my basic principles. However, I was not surprised at what he has wrought or that the program that he and his administration are selling is socialism pure and simple, especially of the more commie variety. We would not be much happier, if we had voted for McCain. Neither will we be if we vote for Romney. I… Read more »
Chris Roberts:
You said to me:”Tom,
Because those presidents honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from him. As it stands, their conversions are not dishonored; they have never had a conversion that can be dishonored.”
Why do you think you have the capability to knows these men’s hearts in relations to conversion?
You appear to me to be judging these men’s hearts and that is God’s job and not yours.
But while you are judging hearts what would you say about Romney’s heart–is it converted?
No, Romney is just as lost and in need of salvation as they are. I’ve repeatedly said that in other conversations. I don’t choose politicians based on their salvation. As for how I can say what I do, the Bible talks quite a bit about discernment and being able to tell what is false from what is true. It tells us we will know people by their fruits. It reveals truths that are essential for Christianity. It calls for us to be wise and discerning. You’re absolutely right that judgment belongs to the Lord; only he will make the full,… Read more »
Chris Roberts: Simple question–How do “you” know who is saved and who is not.”
I’m comfortable with what I’ve already said on the subject.
I am glad that you are–I would not be comfortable judging people’s hearts like you have done.
Tom, given Chris’ comment 201 at 4:54 pm, your comment above seems unfair.
Mark:
The key word in your comment to me is the word “seems”.
Sorry, Tom, I was trying to extend the grace that you seem to want to extend to those whom Chris has made judgement. “Seem” being the key word after your last comment.
So I’ll restate my comment as: Tom, given Chris’ comment 201 at 4:54 pm, your comment above is unfair.
BTW, upon what basis are you judging your discomfort and that Chris is wrong?
Tom, why don’t you simply state your position rather than trying to be the Holy Spirit bringing judgment and conviction on others?
Tell us what you think, not just what you think is wrong with what others have said. Okay?
Hi CHRIS ROBERTS,
could you give a reference to the place where this is located?:
“I’m comfortable with what I’ve already said on the subject.”
in response to Tom’s question, please.
My comments scattered throughout this post. Just search for my name.
I will do that. Thanks 🙂
Posted this in Dwight’s other thread. Thought I’d put in here too. Figuring out how to vote biblically: 1) Make a list of all the issues (abortion, gay “rights”, immigration reform, etc…) 2) Put three columns beside those issues. 3) In on column, put what position Democrats take. In another column, put what position Republicans take. In the last column, put the position God takes as revealed in scripture. There will be NOT ONE CASE that the position Democrats take on the issues lines up with what God says. In fact, most of the time, they take the OPPOSITE position.… Read more »
Joe:
‘
You posted:”Figuring out how to vote biblically:”
Could you not be so kind as to say these are “your” guidelines.
You are a very intolerant human being and it shows through in your comments.
What in the world will you do if President Obama wins a 2nd term. Will your world come to an end?
Could you not be so kind as to say these are “your” guidelines
Then, please, Tom, share with us one, just one, issue that Democrats take the same position on that God takes. Just one will do. Just one………….
(crickets chirping)
Yeah, I didn’t think so.
Joe,
The Bible clearly identifies Obama’s views on moral issues to be at odds with God’s views. One cannot honor God’s values and vote for Obama.
Consider the “Shorter Version” of the Biblical Voters Guide in Romans 13:9. Obama is on the wrong end of every value. It’s not about “Obama the Man,” but about values.
A vote FOR Obama is a vote AGAINST the values of God outlined in the Bible.
Romney on the other hand has values that honor the values of God.
End of story.
I voted against Obama the first time over abortion, and I see every reason to continue to vote that way now as he has approved of spending our tax money for the killing of the unborn.
After some thought and more time spent than maybe I should have reading the blog, I feel compelled to post the following. Please understand my aforementioned comment in no way is intended to cast criticism on anyone’s point of view. If I may, a little background on me. I am a 49 year old born again Christian who accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior at the age of 19. I went on my first mission trip some 15 years ago and have been working with youth missions ever since and am most thankful for the people God has… Read more »
cb scott,
🙂
Jess Alford,
Am I missing something here?
Comment #249 was direct to Bill Mac.