Originally posted at Modern March
This post was prompted by a poor “tweet” and the even poorer statement by Ray Bakke that led to it.
Redeemer City to City, a church planting resource that I admire and respect, held the Movement Day 2010 Conference in New York City, the headlining speakers being Timothy Keller and Bill Hybels. Naturally, I was interested. I was at work at the time, so my following of the conference was via the Twitter hashtag #mday2010 on my phone. Things were going smoothly until this came across the #mday2010 feed:
Now, I’m not one for trying to be the social networking police, but this flat out scared me. Surprisingly, the only person who seemed to be extremely bothered by this statement besides myself was Tim Brister, who replied once or twice (or more). If anyone was following the #mday2010 feed and saw this, I pray that they did not believe it or take it seriously.
This statement was wrong on two basic counts:
1. The Koran does not affirm the deity of Christ. Simply put, there is no Gospel where Jesus is not God in the flesh, the Messiah and fulfillment of all prophecy, Scripture, and revelation. If Jesus was merely a prophet, as the Koran teaches, then there is no forgiveness of sins, no redemption, no resurrection, and no eternity with the Father (Gospel 101). If Jesus was just another apocalyptic prophet who preached and died, then our faith is meaningless (1 Cor. 15:14). Some maintain that the Koran indeed teaches the Gospel as Christians understand it (and as I’ve said here), though this is impossible foundationally if we are to worship Muhammad’s “revelations” and if Jesus is not the only begotten Son of the Father.
2. Christianity is entirely exclusive. Yes, God plays favorites. This statement sounds eerily like inclusivistic-meets-syncretistic thought. In the context of Bakke’s statement, he was basically saying that we should know the Koran well enough to relate to our Muslim neighbors in evangelistic efforts. With this knowledge, we should be able to pull the Gospel out of it. I do not know Bakke well enough to know if he is, in fact, an inclusivist at all; but I do know that this statement leans this way. The problem with this idea is that the Koran is not in any way an inerrant, inspired revelation of God. Therefore, anything in it is false on spiritual matters. There are no nuggets of truth in it and you cannot use its content to feel your way to Heaven to help anyone else find it. The only way the Koran is useful to evangelism is when it is described as patently false. The Bible is the chosen revelation of God to mankind. Period.
I am sure we can find many, many problems with this statement beyond these, but my hope is to foundationally debunk the belief that there is any way to find the Gospel outside of Scripture’s revelation of Jesus Christ.
Connect with Brandon on Twitter
Brandon:
Twitter perhaps doesn’t offer the best context for a statement such as you saw in only 140 characters. That being said, have you taken any time to read the Qur’an? While, as Christians, we cannot affirm the whole of the Qur’an as true, I do believe that parts of it can be true. Even just try reading Surah 1. Show non-truth in that. My point being is that your second point up there was more of a rant of how only the Bible contains truth and everything else is false. Maybe you’re not aware of the Camel Method, which uses the Qur’an as a bridge to the Gospel. A couple of Southern Baptist missionaries came up with it. I just want you to do a little more research before ranting.
Chris,
I have researched plenty, actually. Perhaps you should’ve researched me first?
Here’s why you can’t find any SPIRITUAL truth in it:
I think there are slight historic truths in the Koran. For example, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jesus, etc. are all named in it and we’d agree are historical people. Abraham is even seen as the faither of the Islamic faith, like Jews and Christians believe. Nothing true Biblically comes from it in a spiritual sense if it isn’t directed at Jesus, which is why I qualified it that way. Muhammad wrote the Koran 600 years after the New Testament era and noticeably rearranges and twists Scripture when it is quoted to fit his religion.
A fundamental problem is that the Koran forks away from the Abrahamic promise passed to Isaac and follows Ishamel instead because he is the Arabian bloodline, the same as Muhammad’s. If you trace away from Isaac then you can never get to Jesus correctly.
So, even if it contains a parable of Jesus, it is not for the spiritual intent that Jesus had for it because it is applied to the Islamic faith and “promises” made to Ishmael. Then you’re running into historical inaccuracies because Jesus is not seen as a bloodline for the fulfillment of these prophecies and is not seen as the incarnate Son of God, which He historically was and is.
And that’s just BASIC differences…
Satan will use things that appear true to distort the truth. After all, that was his tactic in Gen. 3 and Matt. 4. That’s why, to me, something can appear Gospel-ish or partially Gospel-centered but isn’t. The Gospel is either full or nothing at all. Even basic principles like love, generosity, grace, forgiveness, etc. are not the Gospel or anything like it if they aren’t directed at the only Triune God.
Now, we should contextualize to present the Gospel.
But I still think that in a spiritual sense you can’t mix truth and error. The Bible is so, so delicate in what takes everything off the tracks that there can’t be anything true in the Koran spiritually. One misstep in Scripture does throw the baby out with the bath water. Like I said, even correctly referenced Scripture is error if it isn’t pointing the right way.
I will say that I can buy the argument in the Acts 17 sense, “The Koran says that Jesus was a prophet, and He was, but here is how that actually plays out. He was not a mere prophet…etc.” I can go there with you. In the post I used a bit more direct language and just said that it can only be used if revealed as patently false, which is what results when you contextualize and bring in truth.
This one?
—
I seek refuge with Allah from Satan the accursed one.
In the name of Allah the Inherently Compassionate, the Most Merciful.
1. All praise belongs to Allah, the Sustainer of all the universes.
2. The Inherently Companionate, the Most Merciful.
3. Lord of the Day of Judgment.
4. We only worship You and we only seek help from You.
5. Guide us in the straight way.
6. The way of those whom You have favored.
7. Not of those who have earned Your wrath and nor of those who go astray.
—
Don’t be offended by this, but you hit a nerve with me about “original intent”…
Surah 1 would be great, if it were written about God, but as it is, it is not true at all – it is ascribing qualities that are God’s alone to Allah. From the footnotes (http://www.realsuccess.org/Surah1.htm):
“Allah; this name cannot be exactly translated in English as God, because it is a proper noun par excellence. It has no plural qualities neither it is feminine or masculine in nature, I will be using this instead of using God in my commentary on this translation, in-sha-Allah. ”
It would be like me writing this:
—
I seek refuge with Zeus from Hades the accursed one.
In the name of Zeus the Inherently Compassionate, the Most Merciful.
1. All praise belongs to Zeus, the Sustainer of all the universes.
2. The Inherently Companionate, the Most Merciful.
3. Lord of the Day of Judgment.
4. We only worship You and we only seek help from You.
5. Guide us in the straight way.
6. The way of those whom You have favored.
7. Not of those who have earned Your wrath and nor of those who go astray.
—
And saying “show non-truth in that.” Pretty easy to do, I’d say.
So, here’s the non-truth in Surah 1:
1. It is worshipping other than God
2. It ascribes qualities that are only found in God to Allah
3. Allah IS NOT Inherently Compassionate, the Most Merciful
4. Allah IS NOT praiseworthy and does not sustain all the universes
5. Allah IS NOT Lord of the Day of Judgment
6. We MUST NOT worship only Allah, nor seek his help
So, what’s left to be true? The only way to make it true is to take the original author’s intent and read into it something that he denied – that Allah is actually Yahweh.
Do you get mad when people do that to the Bible? Don’t you think they will get mad when you do that to the Qur’an? Surah 1 IS NOT talking about God. It is the worship of a flase god who cannot save.
So, here’s the non-truth in Surah 1:
1. It is worshipping other than God
2. It ascribes qualities that are only found in God to Allah
3. Allah IS NOT Inherently Compassionate, the Most Merciful
4. Allah IS NOT praiseworthy and does not sustain all the universes
5. Allah IS NOT Lord of the Day of Judgment
6. We MUST NOT worship only Allah, nor seek his help
And because of these non-truths, we can conclude without a doubt that:
*Muslims do not worship God. They are not God’s people. God does not have a special relationship with them through Ishmal regardless of whether he and Issac stood beside one another at their father’s grave.
*Since Muslims do not worship God but they do worship, we can know that the thing they worship is a false god.
*Everyone who worships a false god and does not consciously repent of their sins and trust Christ to save them will burn in hell forever.
The Q’uran can be a bridge to the Gospel, but it does not contain Gospel. It is a book about a false god, a false Christ, and a false message. The Camel Method is not nearly as good as the resources from Stand To Reason on dealing with Muslims. The Camel Method is a very poor method of doing dialogue with Muslims.
Hi BRANDON,
Yes, Ishmael, son of Abraham, is spoken of in the Old Testament where God tells Abraham this:
“13 As for the son of the slave woman, I will make a great nation of him also, since he too is your offspring.”
14 Early the next morning Abraham got some bread and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. Then, placing the child on her back, he sent her away. As she roamed aimlessly in the wilderness of Beer-sheba,
15 the water in the skin was used up. So she put the child down under a shrub,
16 and then went and sat down opposite him, about a bowshot away; for she said to herself, “Let me not watch to see the child die.” As she sat opposite him, he began to cry.
17 God heard the boy’s cry, and God’s messenger called to Hagar from heaven: “What is the matter, Hagar? Don’t be afraid; God has heard the boy’s cry in this plight of his.
18 Arise, lift up the boy and hold him by the hand; for I will make of him a great nation.”
19 Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. She went and filled the skin with water, and then let the boy drink.
20 God was with the boy as he grew up . . . ”
‘A GREAT NATION’ . . .
yes, the descendants of Ishmael, son of Abraham, are many, as God Himself heard the cries of a child, and the weeping of his mother, and sent an angel to care for them. Somehow, Brandon, the descendents of Ishmael figure into God’s plan of salvation for mankind. I think this passage in Genesis reassures us of His care for the survival of these people.
That is a pretty large exegetical leap, Christiane. Yes, God cared for the mother and chlld. But to say that means that the descendants of Ishmael figure into God’s plan of salvation is not supported in this scripture or any others I know of.
Salvation comes through faith alone in Christ alone. Ishmael has nothing to do with it.
Hi DAVID,
YES !!!! I see the passage in Genesis differently.
It is inconceivable to me how any person could read that and not see that God intended the survival of the child Ishmael, and ultimately his fathering of ‘a great nation’.
In the context of today’s less-than-kindly attitude toward the descendants of Ishmael, it is good for Christian people to take another look at how it was God’s loving-kindness and intervention that saved the patriarch of these descendants.
As for Ishmael, the Bible says ‘God stayed with the boy as he grew up’. This is something also to remember, and to respect.
David, I do not doubt for a moment that the descendants of Ishmael are important to God. Very, very important.
But that is not the last we hear of Ishmael in Genesis . . . . in a little known verse, the two sons of Abraham meet again, and stand in respect at the grave of their father, Abraham.
“
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written, “Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband.” Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. (Galatians 4:21-31 ESV)
There is no Gospel in the Koran. The Camel method is a good tool for those who know how to use it. One practitioner said it this way, ‘The Koran is a bridge to the Gospel but it is like a rickety old bamboo bridge. You can use it to get to the other side but you want to get off of it as fast as possible!’
As for Christiane’s comment history seems to be bearing her out. The descendants of Ishmael are alive and well on the world stage after so many thousands of years. As a people they retain the qualities prophesied about their ancestor. They are proud and arrogant and seemingly against everybody. Can you think of a way for God to bring more glory to Himself than to see these people transformed by the Gospel? This is happening now and it is amazing.
I’ve read the Koran. I don’t see how it is a trustworthy bridge to the gospel. It requires in at least part that words be taken to have Christian meanings they don’t possess fully in Muslim theology.
This is like saying the Pearl of Great Price is a bridge to Mormons because they both speak of Abraham.
I agree with you Strider that at the very best this is rickety evangelism. I prefer pointing out how the Jesus in the Koran is a different Jesus. Of course, I’m in the West talking with Western Muslims. That may play a part in my choice of tactics. I just feel there are too many fleas dealing with a CAMEL.
I would love to see the gospel come to the descendants of Ishmael, Strider. But I think that Christiane was saying that it was coming “through” them. There’s a difference there.
Maybe Christiane can clarify what she meant.
I’m sorry I confused you.
Christ descends from Abraham through Isaac, not Ishmael.
But we cannot dismiss the fact that God showed loving-care towards the child Ishmael, and intended for his descendants to become ‘a great nation’. For what purpose, we do not know.
The fact that God Himself insured their survival with His active intervention shows us that we also, must give to these descendants of Abraham recognition of their importance to Him.
The lesson of Genesis is one of ‘respect’ for a people who now may ‘watch from afar’, like the Magi, and who someday will be led by the Hand of God to find Our Lord Christ. We can point the way for them. But we must do it with loving-kindness, not with contempt. .
There is a lot of Talk about Genesis 13 comments into this thread. For the integrity of the discussion I hope this latest scholarship serves as a reference point for what goes forward.
Granted it is rather long, but strong paragraph from Page 51 on Diarmand MacCulloch’s exercise commended by several leading wise Christians. I haven’t seen NT Wright’s assessment of the following paragraph but with all of you would like to know what he thinks of it.
Quoting:
It is also striking that certain incidents in the stories of the Patriarchs mirror incidents that took place in a more definitely “historical” context six centuries after 1800 BC. Obvious lurid examples are the duplicated threats of gang rape in a city (with dire consequences for the perpetrators), to be found in both Genesis 19 and Judges 19. Similarly the children of Israel with a carelessness that Lady Bracknell would have deplored, twice put to the sword the unfortunate city of Shechem, once in Genesis 34 and again in Judges 9. Another problem: the patriarchal narratives contain one or two references to Philistines, who come from a later period of history,and there are many more to a people who are close relatives to the Patriarchs, called Aramaeans–Abraham is very precisely given a kinship to the Aramaeans in one family tree. The settlement of Aramaeans in areas reasonably close to the land of Caanan/Israel/Palestine was a gradual process, but other historical evidence shows that it cannot have begun any earlier than 1200 BCE, and that was a very different era from the supposed time of the Patriarchs; their arrival was in a time which followed a further great upheaval in the story of the Children of Israel. Altogether, the chronology of the Book of Genesis simply does not add up as a historical narrative when it is placed in a reliably historical wider context.
Christiane, I don’t know that anyone here is advocating cruelty toward the Muslims. The question is whether one can be led to faith in Christ by using the Koran.
We send people all around the world to minister to Muslims and lead them to faith in Christ.
But we have to maintain that Islam is a false religion and that their scriptures are false teachings. If not, why would we bother to send missionaries to proclaim truth to them.
Hi DAVID,
‘Cruelty’ ? I don’t know any Christian person who would ever advocate cruelty towards anyone. And you’re a Christian person, David.
But there is an attitude towards Islam held by some Christian people that is ‘less than’ it could be. And if this attitude were to improve, these Christian people would be much more able to point Islamic people towards Our Lord.
I really believe that, David.
I’m sorry, I’m just not getting that comment. Of course we believe that Islam is less than.
It is a false religion which deceives people into believing the lie.
Do you not believe that Islam is a false religion?
Do you believe that we should just leave Muslims as Muslims and not attempt to bring them to Christ?
Hi BILL MAC,
I am concerned when I hear statements like your comment: “Bill Mac October 7, 2010 at 10:02 pm
And of course, the same applies to the descendants of Isaac. Jews are just as lost as Muslims.”
Here’s why:
I believe from reading St. Paul’s letter to the Romans, that Christians are counseled to refrain from any arrogance on our part towards those who do not yet believe as we do.
St. Paul explains it this way:
“28 In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
30 Just as you once disobeyed God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so they have now disobeyed in order that, by virtue of the mercy shown to you, they too may (now) receive mercy.
32 For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been His counselor?”
I have a different background, so I am sure I read these words from St. Paul in a different light than you do,
but it is good for you to read over these Scriptures and think about them and their meaning. I think they are important to this post.
Christiane, I asked a couple of questions above. Would love to hear your answers.
Do you believe that Islam is a false religion?
Should we leave Muslims as Muslims and not try to bring them to Christ?
Your comments lead me to believe that you are essentially a universalist. Am I reading you right?
Hi DAVID,
I think your questions can best be answered in the context of this article.
http://www.usccb.org/seia/textsislam.shtml
My Church has a very long history in it’s relationship with Muslims, a lot of that history tragic and bloody.
From all that we have gone through, we have come to a place of caring enough for these Abrahamic brothers and sisters to sincerely and honestly attempt to dialogue with them.
In this comment stream, I have quoted some of Scriptures that I sincerely hope will make people think for a while about HOW they become Christ’s light for ‘those who watch from afar’ as the Magi did long ago.
Right now, among some Christian people, there is more contempt being emitted towards the people of Islam, than the Holy Light of Christ.
That needs to change.
But, do you believe you need to do more than just converse with them. Do you need to share the gospel of salvation in Christ with them?
Do you believe that salvation is found in other religions?
Hi DAVID,
YES . . . there is need for proclamation AND dialogue, but there are many considerations as to how BEST to approach this in order to make the MOST progress, here are some thoughts that may help:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_19051991_dial
This article explores the nature of both dialogue and proclamation, it explores approaches to those who are of other faith traditions, it considers the spirit in which a Christian should enter into dialoguing with, and proclaiming to a person from another faith tradition, with acknowledgment of the role of the Holy Spirit needed to make progress in these encounters. I think this article gives much to consider that will help evangelical Christians to reach the people of Islam. But know that it comes from a very different perspective of how Islam is seen as a faith tradition. And that the success of a Christian’s efforts are totally dependent on the work of the Holy Spirit.
Christiane: “But there is an attitude towards Islam held by some Christian people that is ‘less than’ it could be.”
Ummmm…well, yes…Islam is a false religion. It’s not Christianity.
Ever met a man you didn’t like?
@Dave Miller
LOL! One or two, but not many. 😉
And yes, that is my real name.
You’ve never heard jokes like that, have you? You probably groan a little every time.
The religion of islam is an offense to God. God will not save any muslim, or any person, unless they consciously put their faith in Christ alone and repent of their sins. If a muslim, or any person, does not do that they will burn in hell forever.
Now this is not directed at muslims. Rather, this is directed at the people who would lie to muslims and say “I don’t know how God is going to judge them. That’s up to Him” and “God will save people through Christ without them realizing that He did so.” It is especially directed at those who violently twist scripture by daring to claim that Genesis teaches that Ishmal has the same standing before God as Issac because they stood at their father’s grave.
Hi JOE,
Hope things are better for you now. I’ve been worried about you lately.
Did I ‘dare to claim’ something? I don’t think so.
My view is that the OT is very specific about God’s merciful loving-kindness towards Ishmael. That this has been revealed to us in such detail in Scripture is, in itself, important. As to why we are told about all of this, I leave that question open. I just know that acknowledging that God intervened to save Ishmael is a result of reading Scripture. And all Scripture is ‘connected’ in a way that we have yet to comprehend fully.
God wanted Ishmael to father ‘a great nation’. And His intervention to save Ishmael, and His words of promise to Hagar bear witness to this.
Do we know the reason? No.
Can we at least respect that God is known to bring eventually bring good out of difficulties? Yes.
We see this often in Holy Scripture.
For me, at least, the Scriptures provide hope for the descendants of Ishmael, that God had a care for them to come into existence as a people. I am going to trust that He still cares for them and will help them in time in His Own way.
Christiane,
I think Dave clarified this well, but I guess you need it affirmed by me.
There is no sense in which I’ve said in the post or comments that the descendants of Ishamel cannot be saved or that they deserve the Gospel. My point is Muhammad inaccurately follows promises given to Ishmael as a means to the end (specifially Heaven).
Issac was given the promises that were fulfilled in Jesus, who embodied spiritual truth. Therefore, Ishamel’s promises cannot and do not, in any way, contain the eternal promises of God brought through the Gospel.
***or that they *DON’T* deserve the Gospel…
I never said they did, Brandon.
I only know that we are told that God cared for Ishmael.
I come from a very different perspective so, for me, God’s loving-kindness and mercy towards Ishmael has great meaning in revealing His attitude towards Ishmael’s descendants.
I am not going to judge or predict why or how God does what He did in this matter, but there is something about these Scriptures that gives me hope for Ishmael’s descendants, that they are not to be abandoned without God’s care.
If I have hope for them, it comes from learning about God’s intervention, as revealed in Genesis.
I know you didn’t say that, but you repeated implied that it was relevant somehow to what I said.
Brandon,
Great point. God’s providential care of Ishamal in no way, shape, form, or fashion suggets or implies for even a microsecond that his decendants are right with God or that the islamic faith will save anyone.
Anyone who does not repent of their sins and consciously place their faith in Jesus will go to hell. However, God will graciously save anyone, regardless of where they’re from, if they will repent of their sins and consciouly trust Christ alone to save them.
Hi BRANDON and JOE,
I imply nothing more than, at a certain point, God intervened.
We do not know why, other than apparently, He showed compassion.
That is not the same as putting a stamp of approval on a religion. It was THE PEOPLE God cared about.
Without God’s intervention, Ishmael would have died in the desert, and there would have been no ‘great nation’, a term that I believe means ‘a large number of descendants’.
But God intervened.
And this was revealed to us.
We may make of it what we will, but we cannot deny it.
And of course, the same applies to the descendants of Isaac. Jews are just as lost as Muslims.
Hi BILL MAC,
I am concerned when I hear statements like your comment: “Bill Mac October 7, 2010 at 10:02 pm
And of course, the same applies to the descendants of Isaac. Jews are just as lost as Muslims.”
Here’s why:
I believe from reading St. Paul’s letter to the Romans, that Christians are counseled to refrain from any arrogance on our part towards those who do not yet believe as we do.
St. Paul explains it this way:
“28 In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
30 Just as you once disobeyed God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so they have now disobeyed in order that, by virtue of the mercy shown to you, they too may (now) receive mercy.
32 For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been His counselor?”
I have a different background, so I am sure I read these words from St. Paul in a different light than you do,
but it is good for you to read over these Scriptures and think about them and their meaning. I think they are meaningful to the subject of this post and to the comment stream.
Christiane,
I’m legitimately trying to stay on track with you here…
I cannot fathom how God’s mercy toward Ishmael at all changes the purposes of this post.
The point is, Issac received the promise later fulfilled in Jesus. Therefore, the Gospel is not found through any other line of descendants. Furthermore, Muhammad specifically and clearly twisted Scripture to fit into his religion. It is clear in the OT that Isaac’s line would produce the Savior, yet Muhammad has denied and lied about this in the Koran.
NO OTHER NAME but Jesus. Period. End of story. The Bible teaches this, the Koran does not. Period.
Christiane: Scripture lays out a simple premise. Believe in Christ and be saved, reject Christ and you are lost. That applies to all people everywhere, regardless of their lineage. If you want to say they are beloved of God, that is fine. The proof of that is the gift of God’s son and His sacrifice for their sins. But that love alone does not save them. They must reach out to God in faith through Christ.
“Know the Koran” itself is not a bad statement. Far too many Christians will tell you what the Koran says when in fact most Christians don’t even read the bible. I think most who will tell you what the Koran says most likely heard it from some other Christian who heard it….you get the idea. Or, they did a word search through some online version of the Koran and came up with something that sounded like something they could use. I’m no apologist for the Koran, having never read it, but I’m pretty sure contextless prooftexting of the Koran yields much the same results as contextless prooftexting of the scriptures.
I agree that the tweet is bad, but probably the author meant something better. Perhaps this is not a lesson about Islam or the Koran, but about the misuse of twitter.
I should clarify my first sentence. Honestly I don’t care if Christians read the Koran. I don’t have any plans to. But for crying out loud don’t speak about what the Koran says if you haven’t read it.
Lets hope you are right, Bill,, and that the tweet was only meant to say we should know the Koran as a bridge to the gospel. I hope the author misspoke and exaggerated.
But it is his use of the word “gospel” that troubles me. Is there truth in the Koran? I’m sure there is. Is there “gospel” in the Koran? I highly doubt it.
How can one find the saving message of Christ in the documents of a false religion?
Bill Mac’s position in #14 is me. I’ve read some books by Muslims which are not objective and probably biased which doesn’t help the search for the truth. However, I’ve rarely met a person that I couldn’t relate to in some fashion and who possessed some ability or knowledge I didn’t have. If I label this person a “mission field” then maybe I haven’t committed a “sin” talking to them and who knows where our common curosity would lead.
Brandon,
Back to your original post. You stated “The problem with this idea is that the Koran is not in any way an inerrant, inspired revelation of God. Therefore, anything in it is false on spiritual matters. There are no nuggets of truth in it and you cannot use its content to feel your way to Heaven to help anyone else find it. The only way the Koran is useful to evangelism is when it is described as patently false.”
How do you feel about Paul’s ministry in the Areopagus (Acts 17:16-34)? My ESV translation leaves out where Paul chides them for their religion being patently false. I need another translation, I suppose…
Religion seems to me to more and more be the problem…I’m subscribing to a Kingdom and I’ll cross whatever religious boundaries required to share the Kingdom without dragging anyone out of their religion as long as they follow the KING!
Anyone who repents of their sins and trusts Christ alone to save them will not stay in another religion (Mormonism, islam, etc). Anyone who doesn’t leave a false religion to consciously place their faith in Christ and repent of their sins is not saved. Anyone who calls people to follow a King but stay in their religion has shared a false gospel.
Joe is right here. Are you saying, Trip, that it is possible to “follow the King” and stay in the religion of Islam?
Trip,
Read my response to Chris at the top of the comment thread, I mentioned Acts 17 and contextualization.
I only would like to know about the Koran like I know about the Book of Mormon . Not as a bridge to the Gospel for me but maybe a bridge to better relate to a muslim. If I start out with your “all wet and completely false – not even the names are spelled correctly” you know where that will go.
Brandon,
Thanks for the point to the comment. I missed it somehow. I can’t access your post now, but I will try later to see how you fleshed that out.
David/Joe,
Follow Christ. Trust Him, Obey Him, CHERISH Him. Yes to all these. After that, my ESV let’s me down again. When Jesus shares with the Samaritan woman he never tells her to leave her religion. He never tells the crowd of Samaritans that followed her back to him that they needed to get their religion right.Take time to look at John 4 in view of this is a group of people with a different religion. What does Jesus say to them?
I’m not saying that their religion is right and Christianity is wrong. I’m really expressing concern that we have shielded the gospel from people by wrapping it in our religion. I know that’s not something we talk about a lot, but maybe we should explore what the Scriptures are saying.
It’s not easy. It takes time. I will be at the mosque tomorrow for Friday prayers and I may not get a chance to share the whole gospel, but I’m not going to do something that Jesus didn’t do. I’m not gonna tell them they’ve got to march out to the local SBC with me and never come back to their community and family. Jesus never did.
A person cannot be a follower of islam and be saved.
A person cannot be a Mormon and be saved.
If a muslim is going to repent and believe the gospel, he will have to reject his religion because the two are incompatible. If a mormon is going to repent and believe the gospel, he will have to reject his religion because the two are incompatible.
Anyone who tells him anything different has lied and proclaimed a false gospel.
Actually Jesus did point out that her religion is wrong when he told her that she was worshipping what she did not know and that salvation was of the Jews.
The Samaritan woman question is not germane. What religion was she part of? And Christianity had not been initiated yet.
Again, your last sentence is a false comparison. No one said you had to be SBC to be saved or that you had to leave your community or family.
However, get out your ESV and read what it says about idolatry and the worship of other gods. God has opened a way for us to come to him through Christ. “There is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
Trip, for the love of God and these people, you need to call them to leave their false ways behind, repent of their sins and trust Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through him.
“”The Samaritan woman question is not germane.””
I disagree. It is germaine in the sense that it speaks of “true and false worship.” This would support your exhortation to call “Muslims from a false religion (worship).”
However, it is NOT germaine if we read into it that Jesus was somehow justifying the Samaritan’s worship (whatever other religion it might have been). It is an argument from silence, against the clear reading of the passage, to try to make such an argument.
I would say the Samaritan encounter gives a clear teaching from the Lord that there is true and false religion (worship), and He alone was the only Truth.
The danger is not “shielding the gospel in religion,” as much as it is “shrouding it in misguided notions of tolerance.”
I would say the Samaritan encounter gives a clear teaching from the Lord that there is true and false religion (worship), and He alone was the only Truth.
That was such a good point I hated to see it be lost again.
Rather, it deserved to be posted more than once. 🙂
One of Brandon’s primary points is that the Christian gospel is exclusive. No other name…Salvation is found in no one else…
We believe in one gospel for all mankind, which is why we engage in world missions.
preach on, Dave! selahV
Once we here reach some conclusion the challenge is to bring a non-beliver to that conclusion – muslim etc. and the first way that comes to my mind is proper reasoning. The educational level of the person we’re addressing will determine how smart and well armed we need to be. Just saying this is the only way doesn’t sound like it’s going to be convincing at least with the muslims. Mormons is another story.
It seems that some are unwilling to make a simple distinction.
We say that Islam is a false religion that does not save. We call Muslims to repent and turn from a false religion to trust Christ. Anyone remember when Paul described the gospel as an offense? We cannot compromise the exclusivity of the gospel without compromising the gospel itself.
But that does not mean we intend to be cruel and derogatory toward Muslims. Our personnel who serve in Muslim countries show great respect and honor for the Muslim people. We have to maintain respect while we still say that Islam is a false path to God.
Dave,
Amen! It is not loving to allow Muslims to worship another god.
and to let them be separated from him for all eternity under his just wrath for sin.
It seems that some are unwilling to make a simple distinction. We say that Islam is a false religion that does not save. But that does not mean we intend to be cruel and derogatory toward Muslims.
Therein lies the problem–the only way to avoid the label of “hate-monger” is to NEVER say that all religions other than Christianity are false religions. To make that statement, to some people, is hateful.
What is truly hateful is to twist scripture trying to make it mean something it doesn’t (i.e. the pathetic assertion that God sparing Ishmal’s life means that muslim people will be in heaven).
To ignore the reality that a person is of a false religion and never share the gospel with them, in a proper way, is to disrespect their eternal personhood.
And to do so because of some goofball, heretical interpretation of the Bible (“ishmal and Issac stood next to each other at their father’s grave…that means muslims are God’s people”) is the highest form of disrespect.
By the way . . . not everybody who stands at the grave of someone gets included in the will 😉
As they say in my neck of the woods….OH SNAP!!!!
That is a good one, SSBN.
“Therein lies the problem–the only way to avoid the label of “hate-monger” is to NEVER say that all religions other than Christianity are false religions. To make that statement, to some people, is hateful.”
Islam is not your typical religion. It is an ideology that comes complete with it’s own government and civil law.
Mohammad borrowed from everyone…Jews, Christians, pagans, etc to cobble together his evil ideals. And I think that confuses some people when reading the Quran. They think, Oh! I can use such and such passage to draw a bridge to Christ. No, Allah is not even the same God as Jehovah.
BTW: Here is an excellent short video geared to Muslims about the true propetic line of the Covenant. Jay Smith is a Christian Islamic scholar who witnesses to Muslims. The quotes from the Quran are a bit surprising…as to who it names as in the line of Ishmeal!
http://www.youtube.com/pfanderfilms#p/c/900CC8F51B717979/7/dqB-gCgXTFI
This is also a great resource for witnessing to Muslims, btw.
This whole discussion is silly… Just ask Brian McLaren. 🙂
that’s funny
A quick story to support my personal decision regarding the Koran. In Germany as a youngster I found Radio Free Moscow while cruising the AM dial at night in my room. It was in good english with American music and news. Better than symphony and “um-pah-pah” on the local radio stations. I told my uncle who forbid me from listening to it as “it was propaganda” and no matter how smart I thought I was it would have their intended effect on me. I’m not smart enough to study or look at the Koran without running the risk of confusing the Koran and the Bible . Too old ? Not smart enough to begin with? I will still relate to a muslim in other ways without using any knowledge of the Koran. But if this person and I relate he will not be thinned skinned or he’s history. I’ll take him to the rifle range on a Wednesday and we’ll stop off at church to eat that evening if he can “take it”. He’ll eat for free and love it ! That’s my decision as a result of this blog and “as for me” it is a good one.