Originally posted at Modern March
This post was prompted by a poor “tweet” and the even poorer statement by Ray Bakke that led to it.
Redeemer City to City, a church planting resource that I admire and respect, held the Movement Day 2010 Conference in New York City, the headlining speakers being Timothy Keller and Bill Hybels. Naturally, I was interested. I was at work at the time, so my following of the conference was via the Twitter hashtag #mday2010 on my phone. Things were going smoothly until this came across the #mday2010 feed:
Now, I’m not one for trying to be the social networking police, but this flat out scared me. Surprisingly, the only person who seemed to be extremely bothered by this statement besides myself was Tim Brister, who replied once or twice (or more). If anyone was following the #mday2010 feed and saw this, I pray that they did not believe it or take it seriously.
This statement was wrong on two basic counts:
1. The Koran does not affirm the deity of Christ. Simply put, there is no Gospel where Jesus is not God in the flesh, the Messiah and fulfillment of all prophecy, Scripture, and revelation. If Jesus was merely a prophet, as the Koran teaches, then there is no forgiveness of sins, no redemption, no resurrection, and no eternity with the Father (Gospel 101). If Jesus was just another apocalyptic prophet who preached and died, then our faith is meaningless (1 Cor. 15:14). Some maintain that the Koran indeed teaches the Gospel as Christians understand it (and as I’ve said here), though this is impossible foundationally if we are to worship Muhammad’s “revelations” and if Jesus is not the only begotten Son of the Father.
2. Christianity is entirely exclusive. Yes, God plays favorites. This statement sounds eerily like inclusivistic-meets-syncretistic thought. In the context of Bakke’s statement, he was basically saying that we should know the Koran well enough to relate to our Muslim neighbors in evangelistic efforts. With this knowledge, we should be able to pull the Gospel out of it. I do not know Bakke well enough to know if he is, in fact, an inclusivist at all; but I do know that this statement leans this way. The problem with this idea is that the Koran is not in any way an inerrant, inspired revelation of God. Therefore, anything in it is false on spiritual matters. There are no nuggets of truth in it and you cannot use its content to feel your way to Heaven to help anyone else find it. The only way the Koran is useful to evangelism is when it is described as patently false. The Bible is the chosen revelation of God to mankind. Period.
I am sure we can find many, many problems with this statement beyond these, but my hope is to foundationally debunk the belief that there is any way to find the Gospel outside of Scripture’s revelation of Jesus Christ.
Connect with Brandon on Twitter
Brandon: Twitter perhaps doesn’t offer the best context for a statement such as you saw in only 140 characters. That being said, have you taken any time to read the Qur’an? While, as Christians, we cannot affirm the whole of the Qur’an as true, I do believe that parts of it can be true. Even just try reading Surah 1. Show non-truth in that. My point being is that your second point up there was more of a rant of how only the Bible contains truth and everything else is false. Maybe you’re not aware of the Camel Method, which… Read more »
Chris, I have researched plenty, actually. Perhaps you should’ve researched me first? Here’s why you can’t find any SPIRITUAL truth in it: I think there are slight historic truths in the Koran. For example, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jesus, etc. are all named in it and we’d agree are historical people. Abraham is even seen as the faither of the Islamic faith, like Jews and Christians believe. Nothing true Biblically comes from it in a spiritual sense if it isn’t directed at Jesus, which is why I qualified it that way. Muhammad wrote the Koran 600 years after the New Testament… Read more »
Now, we should contextualize to present the Gospel. But I still think that in a spiritual sense you can’t mix truth and error. The Bible is so, so delicate in what takes everything off the tracks that there can’t be anything true in the Koran spiritually. One misstep in Scripture does throw the baby out with the bath water. Like I said, even correctly referenced Scripture is error if it isn’t pointing the right way. I will say that I can buy the argument in the Acts 17 sense, “The Koran says that Jesus was a prophet, and He was,… Read more »
This one? — I seek refuge with Allah from Satan the accursed one. In the name of Allah the Inherently Compassionate, the Most Merciful. 1. All praise belongs to Allah, the Sustainer of all the universes. 2. The Inherently Companionate, the Most Merciful. 3. Lord of the Day of Judgment. 4. We only worship You and we only seek help from You. 5. Guide us in the straight way. 6. The way of those whom You have favored. 7. Not of those who have earned Your wrath and nor of those who go astray. — Don’t be offended by this,… Read more »
So, here’s the non-truth in Surah 1: 1. It is worshipping other than God 2. It ascribes qualities that are only found in God to Allah 3. Allah IS NOT Inherently Compassionate, the Most Merciful 4. Allah IS NOT praiseworthy and does not sustain all the universes 5. Allah IS NOT Lord of the Day of Judgment 6. We MUST NOT worship only Allah, nor seek his help And because of these non-truths, we can conclude without a doubt that: *Muslims do not worship God. They are not God’s people. God does not have a special relationship with them through… Read more »
The Q’uran can be a bridge to the Gospel, but it does not contain Gospel. It is a book about a false god, a false Christ, and a false message. The Camel Method is not nearly as good as the resources from Stand To Reason on dealing with Muslims. The Camel Method is a very poor method of doing dialogue with Muslims.
Hi BRANDON, Yes, Ishmael, son of Abraham, is spoken of in the Old Testament where God tells Abraham this: “13 As for the son of the slave woman, I will make a great nation of him also, since he too is your offspring.” 14 Early the next morning Abraham got some bread and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. Then, placing the child on her back, he sent her away. As she roamed aimlessly in the wilderness of Beer-sheba, 15 the water in the skin was used up. So she put the child down under a shrub,… Read more »
That is a pretty large exegetical leap, Christiane. Yes, God cared for the mother and chlld. But to say that means that the descendants of Ishmael figure into God’s plan of salvation is not supported in this scripture or any others I know of.
Salvation comes through faith alone in Christ alone. Ishmael has nothing to do with it.
Hi DAVID, YES !!!! I see the passage in Genesis differently. It is inconceivable to me how any person could read that and not see that God intended the survival of the child Ishmael, and ultimately his fathering of ‘a great nation’. In the context of today’s less-than-kindly attitude toward the descendants of Ishmael, it is good for Christian people to take another look at how it was God’s loving-kindness and intervention that saved the patriarch of these descendants. As for Ishmael, the Bible says ‘God stayed with the boy as he grew up’. This is something also to remember,… Read more »
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in… Read more »
There is no Gospel in the Koran. The Camel method is a good tool for those who know how to use it. One practitioner said it this way, ‘The Koran is a bridge to the Gospel but it is like a rickety old bamboo bridge. You can use it to get to the other side but you want to get off of it as fast as possible!’ As for Christiane’s comment history seems to be bearing her out. The descendants of Ishmael are alive and well on the world stage after so many thousands of years. As a people they… Read more »
I’ve read the Koran. I don’t see how it is a trustworthy bridge to the gospel. It requires in at least part that words be taken to have Christian meanings they don’t possess fully in Muslim theology. This is like saying the Pearl of Great Price is a bridge to Mormons because they both speak of Abraham. I agree with you Strider that at the very best this is rickety evangelism. I prefer pointing out how the Jesus in the Koran is a different Jesus. Of course, I’m in the West talking with Western Muslims. That may play a part… Read more »
I would love to see the gospel come to the descendants of Ishmael, Strider. But I think that Christiane was saying that it was coming “through” them. There’s a difference there.
Maybe Christiane can clarify what she meant.
I’m sorry I confused you. Christ descends from Abraham through Isaac, not Ishmael. But we cannot dismiss the fact that God showed loving-care towards the child Ishmael, and intended for his descendants to become ‘a great nation’. For what purpose, we do not know. The fact that God Himself insured their survival with His active intervention shows us that we also, must give to these descendants of Abraham recognition of their importance to Him. The lesson of Genesis is one of ‘respect’ for a people who now may ‘watch from afar’, like the Magi, and who someday will be led… Read more »
There is a lot of Talk about Genesis 13 comments into this thread. For the integrity of the discussion I hope this latest scholarship serves as a reference point for what goes forward. Granted it is rather long, but strong paragraph from Page 51 on Diarmand MacCulloch’s exercise commended by several leading wise Christians. I haven’t seen NT Wright’s assessment of the following paragraph but with all of you would like to know what he thinks of it. Quoting: It is also striking that certain incidents in the stories of the Patriarchs mirror incidents that took place in a more… Read more »
Christiane, I don’t know that anyone here is advocating cruelty toward the Muslims. The question is whether one can be led to faith in Christ by using the Koran.
We send people all around the world to minister to Muslims and lead them to faith in Christ.
But we have to maintain that Islam is a false religion and that their scriptures are false teachings. If not, why would we bother to send missionaries to proclaim truth to them.
Hi DAVID,
‘Cruelty’ ? I don’t know any Christian person who would ever advocate cruelty towards anyone. And you’re a Christian person, David.
But there is an attitude towards Islam held by some Christian people that is ‘less than’ it could be. And if this attitude were to improve, these Christian people would be much more able to point Islamic people towards Our Lord.
I really believe that, David.
I’m sorry, I’m just not getting that comment. Of course we believe that Islam is less than.
It is a false religion which deceives people into believing the lie.
Do you not believe that Islam is a false religion?
Do you believe that we should just leave Muslims as Muslims and not attempt to bring them to Christ?
Hi BILL MAC, I am concerned when I hear statements like your comment: “Bill Mac October 7, 2010 at 10:02 pm And of course, the same applies to the descendants of Isaac. Jews are just as lost as Muslims.” Here’s why: I believe from reading St. Paul’s letter to the Romans, that Christians are counseled to refrain from any arrogance on our part towards those who do not yet believe as we do. St. Paul explains it this way: “28 In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because… Read more »
Christiane, I asked a couple of questions above. Would love to hear your answers.
Do you believe that Islam is a false religion?
Should we leave Muslims as Muslims and not try to bring them to Christ?
Your comments lead me to believe that you are essentially a universalist. Am I reading you right?
Hi DAVID, I think your questions can best be answered in the context of this article. http://www.usccb.org/seia/textsislam.shtml My Church has a very long history in it’s relationship with Muslims, a lot of that history tragic and bloody. From all that we have gone through, we have come to a place of caring enough for these Abrahamic brothers and sisters to sincerely and honestly attempt to dialogue with them. In this comment stream, I have quoted some of Scriptures that I sincerely hope will make people think for a while about HOW they become Christ’s light for ‘those who watch from… Read more »
But, do you believe you need to do more than just converse with them. Do you need to share the gospel of salvation in Christ with them?
Do you believe that salvation is found in other religions?
Hi DAVID, YES . . . there is need for proclamation AND dialogue, but there are many considerations as to how BEST to approach this in order to make the MOST progress, here are some thoughts that may help: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_19051991_dial This article explores the nature of both dialogue and proclamation, it explores approaches to those who are of other faith traditions, it considers the spirit in which a Christian should enter into dialoguing with, and proclaiming to a person from another faith tradition, with acknowledgment of the role of the Holy Spirit needed to make progress in these encounters. I… Read more »
Christiane: “But there is an attitude towards Islam held by some Christian people that is ‘less than’ it could be.”
Ummmm…well, yes…Islam is a false religion. It’s not Christianity.
Ever met a man you didn’t like?
@Dave Miller
LOL! One or two, but not many. 😉
And yes, that is my real name.
You’ve never heard jokes like that, have you? You probably groan a little every time.
The religion of islam is an offense to God. God will not save any muslim, or any person, unless they consciously put their faith in Christ alone and repent of their sins. If a muslim, or any person, does not do that they will burn in hell forever. Now this is not directed at muslims. Rather, this is directed at the people who would lie to muslims and say “I don’t know how God is going to judge them. That’s up to Him” and “God will save people through Christ without them realizing that He did so.” It is especially… Read more »
Hi JOE, Hope things are better for you now. I’ve been worried about you lately. Did I ‘dare to claim’ something? I don’t think so. My view is that the OT is very specific about God’s merciful loving-kindness towards Ishmael. That this has been revealed to us in such detail in Scripture is, in itself, important. As to why we are told about all of this, I leave that question open. I just know that acknowledging that God intervened to save Ishmael is a result of reading Scripture. And all Scripture is ‘connected’ in a way that we have yet… Read more »
Christiane,
I think Dave clarified this well, but I guess you need it affirmed by me.
There is no sense in which I’ve said in the post or comments that the descendants of Ishamel cannot be saved or that they deserve the Gospel. My point is Muhammad inaccurately follows promises given to Ishmael as a means to the end (specifially Heaven).
Issac was given the promises that were fulfilled in Jesus, who embodied spiritual truth. Therefore, Ishamel’s promises cannot and do not, in any way, contain the eternal promises of God brought through the Gospel.
***or that they *DON’T* deserve the Gospel…
I never said they did, Brandon. I only know that we are told that God cared for Ishmael. I come from a very different perspective so, for me, God’s loving-kindness and mercy towards Ishmael has great meaning in revealing His attitude towards Ishmael’s descendants. I am not going to judge or predict why or how God does what He did in this matter, but there is something about these Scriptures that gives me hope for Ishmael’s descendants, that they are not to be abandoned without God’s care. If I have hope for them, it comes from learning about God’s intervention,… Read more »
I know you didn’t say that, but you repeated implied that it was relevant somehow to what I said.
Brandon,
Great point. God’s providential care of Ishamal in no way, shape, form, or fashion suggets or implies for even a microsecond that his decendants are right with God or that the islamic faith will save anyone.
Anyone who does not repent of their sins and consciously place their faith in Jesus will go to hell. However, God will graciously save anyone, regardless of where they’re from, if they will repent of their sins and consciouly trust Christ alone to save them.
Hi BRANDON and JOE,
I imply nothing more than, at a certain point, God intervened.
We do not know why, other than apparently, He showed compassion.
That is not the same as putting a stamp of approval on a religion. It was THE PEOPLE God cared about.
Without God’s intervention, Ishmael would have died in the desert, and there would have been no ‘great nation’, a term that I believe means ‘a large number of descendants’.
But God intervened.
And this was revealed to us.
We may make of it what we will, but we cannot deny it.
And of course, the same applies to the descendants of Isaac. Jews are just as lost as Muslims.
Hi BILL MAC, I am concerned when I hear statements like your comment: “Bill Mac October 7, 2010 at 10:02 pm And of course, the same applies to the descendants of Isaac. Jews are just as lost as Muslims.” Here’s why: I believe from reading St. Paul’s letter to the Romans, that Christians are counseled to refrain from any arrogance on our part towards those who do not yet believe as we do. St. Paul explains it this way: “28 In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because… Read more »
Christiane, I’m legitimately trying to stay on track with you here… I cannot fathom how God’s mercy toward Ishmael at all changes the purposes of this post. The point is, Issac received the promise later fulfilled in Jesus. Therefore, the Gospel is not found through any other line of descendants. Furthermore, Muhammad specifically and clearly twisted Scripture to fit into his religion. It is clear in the OT that Isaac’s line would produce the Savior, yet Muhammad has denied and lied about this in the Koran. NO OTHER NAME but Jesus. Period. End of story. The Bible teaches this, the… Read more »
Christiane: Scripture lays out a simple premise. Believe in Christ and be saved, reject Christ and you are lost. That applies to all people everywhere, regardless of their lineage. If you want to say they are beloved of God, that is fine. The proof of that is the gift of God’s son and His sacrifice for their sins. But that love alone does not save them. They must reach out to God in faith through Christ.
“Know the Koran” itself is not a bad statement. Far too many Christians will tell you what the Koran says when in fact most Christians don’t even read the bible. I think most who will tell you what the Koran says most likely heard it from some other Christian who heard it….you get the idea. Or, they did a word search through some online version of the Koran and came up with something that sounded like something they could use. I’m no apologist for the Koran, having never read it, but I’m pretty sure contextless prooftexting of the Koran yields… Read more »
Lets hope you are right, Bill,, and that the tweet was only meant to say we should know the Koran as a bridge to the gospel. I hope the author misspoke and exaggerated.
But it is his use of the word “gospel” that troubles me. Is there truth in the Koran? I’m sure there is. Is there “gospel” in the Koran? I highly doubt it.
How can one find the saving message of Christ in the documents of a false religion?
Bill Mac’s position in #14 is me. I’ve read some books by Muslims which are not objective and probably biased which doesn’t help the search for the truth. However, I’ve rarely met a person that I couldn’t relate to in some fashion and who possessed some ability or knowledge I didn’t have. If I label this person a “mission field” then maybe I haven’t committed a “sin” talking to them and who knows where our common curosity would lead.
Brandon, Back to your original post. You stated “The problem with this idea is that the Koran is not in any way an inerrant, inspired revelation of God. Therefore, anything in it is false on spiritual matters. There are no nuggets of truth in it and you cannot use its content to feel your way to Heaven to help anyone else find it. The only way the Koran is useful to evangelism is when it is described as patently false.” How do you feel about Paul’s ministry in the Areopagus (Acts 17:16-34)? My ESV translation leaves out where Paul chides… Read more »
Anyone who repents of their sins and trusts Christ alone to save them will not stay in another religion (Mormonism, islam, etc). Anyone who doesn’t leave a false religion to consciously place their faith in Christ and repent of their sins is not saved. Anyone who calls people to follow a King but stay in their religion has shared a false gospel.
Joe is right here. Are you saying, Trip, that it is possible to “follow the King” and stay in the religion of Islam?
Trip,
Read my response to Chris at the top of the comment thread, I mentioned Acts 17 and contextualization.
I only would like to know about the Koran like I know about the Book of Mormon . Not as a bridge to the Gospel for me but maybe a bridge to better relate to a muslim. If I start out with your “all wet and completely false – not even the names are spelled correctly” you know where that will go.
Brandon, Thanks for the point to the comment. I missed it somehow. I can’t access your post now, but I will try later to see how you fleshed that out. David/Joe, Follow Christ. Trust Him, Obey Him, CHERISH Him. Yes to all these. After that, my ESV let’s me down again. When Jesus shares with the Samaritan woman he never tells her to leave her religion. He never tells the crowd of Samaritans that followed her back to him that they needed to get their religion right.Take time to look at John 4 in view of this is a group… Read more »
A person cannot be a follower of islam and be saved.
A person cannot be a Mormon and be saved.
If a muslim is going to repent and believe the gospel, he will have to reject his religion because the two are incompatible. If a mormon is going to repent and believe the gospel, he will have to reject his religion because the two are incompatible.
Anyone who tells him anything different has lied and proclaimed a false gospel.
Actually Jesus did point out that her religion is wrong when he told her that she was worshipping what she did not know and that salvation was of the Jews.
The Samaritan woman question is not germane. What religion was she part of? And Christianity had not been initiated yet. Again, your last sentence is a false comparison. No one said you had to be SBC to be saved or that you had to leave your community or family. However, get out your ESV and read what it says about idolatry and the worship of other gods. God has opened a way for us to come to him through Christ. “There is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Trip, for the love… Read more »
“”The Samaritan woman question is not germane.”” I disagree. It is germaine in the sense that it speaks of “true and false worship.” This would support your exhortation to call “Muslims from a false religion (worship).” However, it is NOT germaine if we read into it that Jesus was somehow justifying the Samaritan’s worship (whatever other religion it might have been). It is an argument from silence, against the clear reading of the passage, to try to make such an argument. I would say the Samaritan encounter gives a clear teaching from the Lord that there is true and false… Read more »
I would say the Samaritan encounter gives a clear teaching from the Lord that there is true and false religion (worship), and He alone was the only Truth.
That was such a good point I hated to see it be lost again.
Rather, it deserved to be posted more than once. 🙂
One of Brandon’s primary points is that the Christian gospel is exclusive. No other name…Salvation is found in no one else…
We believe in one gospel for all mankind, which is why we engage in world missions.
preach on, Dave! selahV
Once we here reach some conclusion the challenge is to bring a non-beliver to that conclusion – muslim etc. and the first way that comes to my mind is proper reasoning. The educational level of the person we’re addressing will determine how smart and well armed we need to be. Just saying this is the only way doesn’t sound like it’s going to be convincing at least with the muslims. Mormons is another story.
It seems that some are unwilling to make a simple distinction. We say that Islam is a false religion that does not save. We call Muslims to repent and turn from a false religion to trust Christ. Anyone remember when Paul described the gospel as an offense? We cannot compromise the exclusivity of the gospel without compromising the gospel itself. But that does not mean we intend to be cruel and derogatory toward Muslims. Our personnel who serve in Muslim countries show great respect and honor for the Muslim people. We have to maintain respect while we still say that… Read more »
Dave,
Amen! It is not loving to allow Muslims to worship another god.
and to let them be separated from him for all eternity under his just wrath for sin.
It seems that some are unwilling to make a simple distinction. We say that Islam is a false religion that does not save. But that does not mean we intend to be cruel and derogatory toward Muslims. Therein lies the problem–the only way to avoid the label of “hate-monger” is to NEVER say that all religions other than Christianity are false religions. To make that statement, to some people, is hateful. What is truly hateful is to twist scripture trying to make it mean something it doesn’t (i.e. the pathetic assertion that God sparing Ishmal’s life means that muslim people… Read more »
To ignore the reality that a person is of a false religion and never share the gospel with them, in a proper way, is to disrespect their eternal personhood.
And to do so because of some goofball, heretical interpretation of the Bible (“ishmal and Issac stood next to each other at their father’s grave…that means muslims are God’s people”) is the highest form of disrespect.
By the way . . . not everybody who stands at the grave of someone gets included in the will 😉
As they say in my neck of the woods….OH SNAP!!!!
That is a good one, SSBN.
“Therein lies the problem–the only way to avoid the label of “hate-monger” is to NEVER say that all religions other than Christianity are false religions. To make that statement, to some people, is hateful.” Islam is not your typical religion. It is an ideology that comes complete with it’s own government and civil law. Mohammad borrowed from everyone…Jews, Christians, pagans, etc to cobble together his evil ideals. And I think that confuses some people when reading the Quran. They think, Oh! I can use such and such passage to draw a bridge to Christ. No, Allah is not even the… Read more »
BTW: Here is an excellent short video geared to Muslims about the true propetic line of the Covenant. Jay Smith is a Christian Islamic scholar who witnesses to Muslims. The quotes from the Quran are a bit surprising…as to who it names as in the line of Ishmeal!
http://www.youtube.com/pfanderfilms#p/c/900CC8F51B717979/7/dqB-gCgXTFI
This is also a great resource for witnessing to Muslims, btw.
This whole discussion is silly… Just ask Brian McLaren. 🙂
that’s funny
A quick story to support my personal decision regarding the Koran. In Germany as a youngster I found Radio Free Moscow while cruising the AM dial at night in my room. It was in good english with American music and news. Better than symphony and “um-pah-pah” on the local radio stations. I told my uncle who forbid me from listening to it as “it was propaganda” and no matter how smart I thought I was it would have their intended effect on me. I’m not smart enough to study or look at the Koran without running the risk of confusing… Read more »