In a recent contribution in The Atlantic, Graeme Wood published a piece entitled, “What ISIS Really Wants.” It’s an enriching read, offering a crystalline examination of ISIS. Personally, it wasn’t until I read this particular piece that I truly understood the difference between ISIS and other Islamic terroristic organizations, like Al-Qaeda or Hamas. Before today I lumped such groups into the same radicalistic category, but Wood helped me see that this is like comparing poisonous apples to explosive-laced oranges.
Both are dangerous, but one is objectively more terrible.
(It’s the oranges)
Groups like Al-Qaeda and Hamas are certainly terroristic, but they are, startlingly as it sounds, alleviated versions of Islam, while ISIS is its unsullied counterpart. According to Wood, ISIS is the unblemished embodiment of Islam. When we see a line of black-hooded men beheading twenty-one Egyptian Christians, we ought to think, “This is perfectly Islam.”
“The reality is that the Islamic State [ISIS] is Islamic. Very Islamic.” -Graeme Wood
Wood stresses that ISIS is, at its most fundamental level, a religious organization. Like Roman Catholicism, ISIS has a supreme leader to lead their faith. They call him their “caliph.” His name is Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, and he is the “first caliph in generations.” Some say the first since 1924, when the Ottoman Caliphate ended. The caliph and his Islamic State “requires territory to remain legitimate, and a top-down structure to rule it.” And in this territory and under this rule this State revives its “medieval religious nature,” which includes “slavery, crucifixion, and beheadings.” Bernard Haykel, the foremost secular authority on the Islamic State’s ideology, writes that ISIS is “smack in the middle of the medieval tradition and [is] bringing it wholesale into the present day.” True Muslims are expected to immigrate to wherever this territory is (in this case Mosul, Iraq) and serve the caliph. Any Muslim that fails to do this is an apostate and is marked for death.
Therefore, to answer Wood’s opening question, which is, “What is the Islamic State?” the answer is, “It’s the epitome of the religion of Islam,” and this is a politically incorrect, yet boldly authentic declaration. Haykel says that Muslims who call the Islamic state “un-Islamic are typically embarrassed and politically correct, with a cotton-candy view of their own religion that neglects what their religion has historically and legally required.” “[Haykel] regards the claim that the Islamic State has distorted the texts of Islam as preposterous, sustainable only through willful ignorance.” “People,” Haykel says, “want to absolve Islam … [with the] ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ mantra.’”
ISIS insists that “they will not–cannot–waver from governing precepts that were embedded in Islam by the Prophet Muhammad and his earliest followers.” “Virtually every major decision and law promulgated by the Islamic State adheres to what it calls ‘the Prophetic methodology,’ which means following the prophecy and example of Muhammad, in punctilious detail.” Alongside Muhammad, ISIS has its own version of the Christian Church’s “church fathers,” called Salafism, which means “the pious forefathers.” “These forefathers are the Prophet himself and his earliest adherents.” ISIS “honors and emulates” these individuals “as the models for all behavior, including warfare, couture, family life, even dentistry.”
Thus, the warmongering caliphs in Islam’s history are to ISIS what the peacemaking Jesus, Paul, and Augustine are to the Christian Church.
“Leaders of the Islamic State have taken emulation of Muhammad as strict duty, and have revived traditions that have been dormant for hundreds of years.” -Wood
This is a striking thought, especially when one considers President Obama’s statements at the 2015 National Prayer Breakfast, where he suggested that the terrible acts of ISIS are based on a “twisted and distorted” view of Islam. According to Wood and Haykel, however, they aren’t. It’s not that ISIS has gotten Islam wrong. It’s that they have achieved it perfectly. ISIS is Islam, at it finest.
Politically correct? Resoundingly not. Historically and religiously accurate? Unapologetically yes.
The stubborn reality is that ISIS believes that, with their new caliph, their kingdom has come. In some ways, the caliph’s return is to ISIS (and therefore Islam) what Jesus’ return is to the Christian (and therefore Christianity). In the way a Christian would want to journey to Jerusalem if Jesus had returned and was physically reigning there is how ISIS feels about their caliph. Baghdadi is no mere leader. He’s number eight of twelve total caliphs that will lead Islam to world domination, via barbaric murders of apostate infidels. And to be clear, everyone who disagrees with ISIS’ Islam, from the Al-Qaeda Muslim to the American Christian, is marked for death. ISIS has released the beast of the Holocaust, but in this case the Jews are but one kind of infidel. You and I are another.
This is the politically incorrect truth that ISIS teaches us about Islam.
To be clear, this is radically different from other religions, particularly Christianity. President Obama, for whatever reason, feels the need to argue that ISIS’ actions are “not unique” to Islam, citing the Crusades as a parallel example for how Christians terrorized innocent people. But there is a big difference. ISIS is the realization of Islam, while murdering innocent people in the name of Christ is, without question, not the realization of Christianity.
Timothy Keller, in The Reason for God, offers sound thoughts on the divisive effects religion can have on the world, but also clarifies the unique peace of Christ and his followers:
“Religion can certainly be one of the major threats to world peace … [but] at the very heart of [the Christian] view of reality [is] a man who died for his enemies … We cannot skip lightly over the fact that there have been injustices done by the church in the name of Christ, yet who can deny that the force of Christians’ most fundamental beliefs can be a powerful impetus for peace-marking in our troubled world?”
Summarized, Keller is saying that Christianity is not the same as ISIS, or any religion for that matter. I think this is proven with ISIS’ most recent beheading video, (as if it hadn’t already been by the others.)
Are there Islamic Muslims who disagree with ISIS’ interpretation of the religion? Of course. Both Wood and Haykel acknowledge this. But it’s imperative that we understand that any non-ISIS Islam is, in the least, a manipulated version of true Islam, (like what Mormonism is to Christianity), but more likely a mitigated version of it. This means that many Islamic Muslims are apostates to true Islam, (but this is a good thing, in some cases better than others, although all cases are unfortunate).
ISIS believes that they play a crucial role in the finality of all things. “The Islamic State … believes that it is written into God’s script as a central character.” ISIS has special interest in the Syrian city of Dabiq, believing that the armies of Rome” (many ISIS sources interpret this as America) will set up camp there. Here ISIS will prevail (which is why they continue to entice us into war), even receiving help from Jesus, who will return to earth and lead the Muslims to victory.
In my biblically expositional estimation, however, the Islamic State (or at least anyone operating in accordance with it) will be astonishingly surprised by Jesus, like Mace Windu was when Anakin chose Palpatine over him and was subsequently Sith Lightninged to death. When Jesus comes back he will not defend the Islamic State. He will establish his kingdom, and he will reign as the King of kings and the Lord of lords.
“And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh” (Rev 19:20-21).
“And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS” (Rev 19:16).
Quotes taken from Graeme Wood’s “What ISIS Really Wants.”
Originally posted on jaredwellman.com
Here’s the problem with this approach. You say: “Are there Islamic Muslims who disagree with ISIS’ interpretation of the religion? Of course. Both Wood and Haykel acknowledge this. But it’s imperative that we understand that any non-ISIS Islam is, in the least, a manipulated version of true Islam, (like what Mormonism is to Christianity), but more likely a mitigated version of it. This means that many Islamic Muslims are apostates to true Islam, (but this is a good thing, in some cases better than others, although all cases are unfortunate).” Islam has around 1.8 billion adherents. ISIS Islam has, what,… Read more »
Why I agree with your assertion to refrain from using a broad brush, much of the OP was from a very good article in The Atlantic written by a “non-Baptist preacher”. There are other reputable sources as well that are starting to drill down into the reality of the belief system of ISIS. Here’s another one:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/16/opinion/bergen-isis-enemies/index.html
Bottom line: Just as it is inaccurate to paint all Muslims with the ISIS brush, it is also inaccurate to pass ISIS off as just another JV terror group with political aspirations ala Al Quaeda.
*While I agree
William, You said, “If you don’t intend to do the above, then be more clear about what you intend here.” Your response is befuddling to me because you quoted the part of the article in which I make an intentional effort to say that not all Muslims are terrorists, and then use it to suggest that I am an ignorant preacher teaching my people to disdain Muslims. The idea of the article, especially the part you quoted, is that ISIS embodies what Islam fundamentally is, and that an Islamic practicing Muslim who doesn’t follow ISIS’ interpretation of the religion is… Read more »
Jared, don’t put words in my mouth and don’t get your feeling hurt here. If I want to call you an ignorant Baptist preacher teaching your people to hate all Muslims, I have the vocabulary to do that. I didn’t. My only speculative assertion was about your travel history. This piece is part of a genre that has had currency among us since 911. It works well in our circles (where I hear snide remarks about our “Muslim” president regularly, but not since Sunday morning). The caveats and provisos about not all Muslims being like ISIS were overwhelmed by the… Read more »
William, Thanks for the reply. I’m genuinely trying to respond in a way that doesn’t come across the wrong way. Know that my feelings aren’t hurt, but I appreciate the concern. My last reply was an attempt to point out the irony of how your response echoed your concerns of the article. It was like saying, “Let’s murder all the abortionists!” And my goal was to show you that your concerns weren’t a concern, because you misread them. I took the following comments (assumptions?), “… leave it to Baptist preachers who have probably never been to a Muslim country, never… Read more »
Simple point, if you say I said something, then let it be something I said, otherwise, you’re putting words in my mouth. You aren’t getting this. I’m around a considerable population of Muslims who would read this and say, “There the Christians go again…” The trigger in your article for me, and I don’t see that you recognize this, is the loud touting of “true” Islam cast against the afterthought of a disclaimer that not all of the 1.8 billion Muslims are like ISIS. Indeed. I get this kind of stuff occasionally when someone will breathlessly tell me “You know,… Read more »
I’ve said this in other replies, but the intent of the article is evangelistic. It’s politically incorrect (and allegedly insulting, and just plumb difficult) to suggest that ISIS reveals the totality of the religion of Islam, because there are Muslims who practice a version of the religion peacefully. My argument, sourced from Wood and Haykel, (and other sources from my past research), is that such Muslims are not practicing the religion accurately, based on its historical roots, in the way a Mormon doesn’t practice Christianity accurately, based on its historical roots. I understand that this is an unsettling statement, but… Read more »
Jared,
I think your last two paragraphs here are spot on.
Is more than one Caliphate legal? How does Hazrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad ,elected as the fifth Khalifa (Caliph) fit into this picture?
Chris, he’s the Ahmadiyya caliph…which is kinda the “mormonism” of Islam. Most muslims think they’re apostates anyways.
Thanks Adam,…so just another guy that wants a following… hmmm. How is it that Muslims know which one is the real deal?
Jared, I read the article in the Atlantic this morning as well – it’s well written and informative. We had a missionary to Muslim people’s at our church last Sunday and he spoke of how ISIS is doing more for the cause of gospel advancment among middle easterners than anything else – he said essentially what the article said – that ISIS is the real fundamental/Koran faithful group (they do exactly as instructed in the Koran) while the others – even Al Queda are actually moderate forms – this is leading the “Muslims in name only” (most of the world’s… Read more »
Thanks for the article, btw.
Thank you Tarheel.
One troubling truth for Christians: there is startlingly little difference between the tactics and motivation of ISIS and the tactics and motivation of Joshua and the Israelites at the conquest of Canaan. Destruction, execution, conquest, pillage, forced marriages, etc, etc, all in the name of God.
Chris R,..I’m beginning to see why the pastoring gig did not fit well with your newly realized paradigm.
Not believing the things you are preaching does tend to put a hamper on things.
yes it does!
Chris J.: Chris R. is simply repeating the junk peddled by the late Christopher Hitchens and the other noted New Atheists of our day. Kind of boring really, when one realizes that religious liberty came out of what most would consider the extreme right wing of the Christian Faith, even what would today be classified as right-wing funnydamnmentalists. Just consider the two men who put the belief of religious liberty into legal precept and practice. I refer, of course, to Roger Williams and Dr. John Clarke (who had a whole lot more to do with it than most people imagine).… Read more »
Dr. J, You are right my friend. It is the same ole stuff…now with even more words to parse! Thank goodness for expanded vocabulary, or the budding Atheist would have little to talk about.
Chris Roberts,
The tactics and motivation is troubling for Christians? Probably! American Christians tend to view history as if American culture is the pinnacle of civilization.
But warfare is like that. And whether a human involved in war is Christian, Moslem, agnostic or atheist, warfare is still ugly.
So what is the point you are making? Are you implying Christians are hypocrites because they are opposed to Allah and in favor of Yahweh?
The primary relevant difference between Islam and Free Church Christianity is that the Qur’an stipulates a relationship between Islam and the state, while the New Testament contains no such linkage. Islam has adapted to non-Islamic states where it does not have a majority. Islamic states have taken various approaches toward adherents of other faiths, sometimes practicing comparatively generous religious tolerance (Suleiman, Senegal), and sometimes practicing harsh religious intolerance (Saudi Arabia, Iran under Khomeni, etc.). Granted, Christianity has also experienced church-state fusions (motivated by a wrongheaded understanding of the relationship between the testaments), but the New Testament permits what the Qur’an… Read more »
Thanks Bart. And thanks for the insightful additions.
For those of you who are too kind and tender the following is the definition of moderate and radical muslims.
Radical muslim: Wants to behead you.
Moderate muslim: Wants a radical muslim to behead you.
“Radical muslim: Wants to behead you. Moderate muslim: Wants a radical muslim to behead you. My goodness. How politically incorrect. I agree with you. I saw it after 9/11 up close and personal. Too many American Muslims were thrilled the US was attacked to viciously. I see it in my work with Muslim refugees. I saw it up close and person with the Muslim students who lived with us during the late 70’s during the Iranian revolution. Some of those Iranian students had parents who were murdered because of their work for American companies. I even saw it with my… Read more »
I have to go with William here. Nothing irritates Calvinists or non-Calvinists more than being told what they believe by someone outside their group. I’m not sure the value of telling people that ISIS is the true embodiment of Islam. What’s the point? Offending peaceful Muslims? Check. Making non-Muslims fearful of all Muslims? Check. What if they (Muslims) believe you? Suppose you convince these apostate Muslims to return to the true faith (as defined by you and ISIS)?
I read one report of someone who was held hostage by ISIS. He said they gave very little thought to religion.
Hey Bill. I would say that the real value is to point them to the true God, which is what I do at the end of the article, via Tim Keller’s statements.
“I read one report of someone who was held hostage by ISIS. He said they gave very little thought to religion.”
I am curious why that is surprising. There is no difference between their religion or government. It is all the same. It encompasses all of life from food to dress, etc. Their very existence is religious in their view.
For those of us who are pastors or teachers, this article may be helpful for us concerning this issue:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/parse/2015/february/what-isis-wants.html?paging=off
Well, after reading the point/counter-point here, I’ll speak for myself. I have been to a few predominately Muslim countries, and I also read the Atlantic Monthly article. It was excellent, and very helpful in framing the complicated distinctions involved.
There is a book called “Son of Hamas” that is the biography of a man who was raised by a founder of Hamas, but became an undercover spy for Israel, and is now a Christian. It’s a great read, and it discusses the mindset of groups like Al-Qaeda and Hamas. I used to lump ISIS into this. Wood’s article is worthwhile in that it discusses how ISIS is vastly different from Al-Qaeda and Hamas, and the question becomes self-evident as to what the major difference is between these two kinds of Islamic groups. Wood and Haykel argue that it’s that… Read more »
“UBL (and his successors) believe themselves to be “pre-ushers” of the caliphate. Right now theres tension between the two groups (and that’s good for Israel and the west) – but if those tensions are ever mended and the groups meld – then there’s gonna be big trouble.” If you read history, they have been slaughtering each other for centuries. But then they got a common enemy: Israel in 1948 as a nation state recognized by the world. And the preceding wars carved them up into nations instead of tribes helped to organize them into more brutality. Muslim leaders were backing… Read more »
Lydia,
You need a “like” button on your posts. 🙂
You guys might find Jay Smith interesting. He is a Christian Islamic Scholar in London. He debates Muslims in Hyde Park from their perspective. He has a youtube channel. You might be put off with his debate method but he meets Muslims in their tradition.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-wOxG8p_Nk5nFkSxZOxq6w
Here he makes the claim based upon history that ISIS is following Mohammeds example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Z3GwQwmGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Z3GwQwmGY
I went through the British Museum once with Jay. Interesting little tour. I’ve seen him work at Speakers’ Corner.
I bet that was interesting. I wonder how staged speakers corner is? I am going to be in England late summer and would be interested to check it out.
Utter pandemonium.
Jared, Thank you for writing this. I wrote a post on my own blog last week after President Obama’s Prayer Breakfast asking where/who the moderating, peaceful factor in Islam was? If Islam is truly peaceful, then by what means do faithful Muslims call themselves back to that core perspective? When we have run off into violence and oppression, Crusades and Inquisitions, warmongering and slave-holding, for example, Christians have Jesus as the reforming core to call us back to repentance. We can look back on our history and see where we fell short of following Christ and the results were devastating.… Read more »
It might have been mentioned here earlier, but I saw this today – where a man walks around Paris in a yarmulke and a hidden GoPro camera filming him. The reactions that he gets from the people in the neighborhoods are unbelievable. Just because he is a Jew.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/a-jew-in-paris/#post-comments
That video is sad, and sadly true. I’ve seen other videos of how Muslims attacked Christians, who were preaching the Gospel.
Islam is not a religion of peace. I know that some Muslims are peaceful. But, they go against the teachings of their Koran.
David
David,
Did you also see the video from Texas of Christians harassing a peaceful Muslim rally? There are many examples of that sort of thing. Glass houses, stones, etc.
Chris, such are the consequences of living in a free society. One has to put up with….oh wait…Muslims did not put up with Christians in Dearborn.
OTOH, name any Islamic country where Jews or non Muslims are “elected” to government.
Let’s start there.
Lydia,
“Someone raised a valid negative point about the behavior of some Christians which turns out to be just as bad as the non-Christian behavior I was criticizing! Quick! Let’s change the subject and hope no one notices!”
“Someone raised a valid negative point about the behavior of some Christians which turns out to be just as bad as the non-Christian behavior I was criticizing! Quick! Let’s change the subject and hope no one notices!”
Let me know when you and I have control over others bad behavior that is not breaking the law. We can only call the police.
Muslims have to get used to living in chaotic freedom just like the rest of us.
Lydia,
I’m not sure if you didn’t read the comment thread or what, but you’re doing a phenomenal job of missing my point. Throughout the comment thread there are a few comments criticizing Muslims for how they treat other people. I was responding to one such comment. My point is very simple: there are Christians who engage in the exact same behavior. If you want to criticize Muslims for doing it, let’s not forget about Christians doing it.
“So, where/what do Muslims return to?”
Great way to put it!
Attaturk was intent on Westernizing Islam but after that we see a constant tension in that approach because the nature of Islam is forced “submission”. Add to that the underlying shame/honor theme and individual freedom is something even cultural Muslims wrestle with.
Good point, Lydia. As Christians, we are a little bit limited in critiquing other religions because our criticism appears to be self-serving. But, when we ask questions of the religion like this and then wait for the answer – or compare the answer to the reality – then the critique happens on its own.
Thanks Alan.
Alan,
Bingo, the issue in every generation is to discover the original intent of the religion as expressed in the words and actions of the founder. We have Christ and they have Mohammed and yet we seem surprised when they live out their faith.
wilbur
“ISIS has released the beast …”
Those who have ears to hear, let him hear! It’s increasingly clear that the average Christian in America doesn’t have a clue in this regard. These are days to be teaching and preparing the people of God … most are uninformed, misinformed, or willingly ignorant about Islam.
Great piece Jared! I would like to see you do a piece on “The Politically Incorrect Truth About Chrislam” sometime.
Thanks Max.
I say be careful around muslims because they use “taqyyia” religious and societal sanctioned lies to protect themselves. They deny the following verses but in reality the verses are the heart of their religion. Quran surah 9:30 The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah “; and the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son of Allah .” That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded? from the Hadiths The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “The Hour will not… Read more »
I will show my cards up front and say I sympathize to a large degree with the concerns William Thornton raises here. Though I have not yet read the artcle in The Atlantic (I hope to soon), I think describing “true Islam” is somewhat like describing “true Christianity.” There are various perspectives through which one might do this: i.e. theological, historical, political, cultural, sociological, statistical, etc., with various groups and subgroups vying for the honor of “most faithful” and “most authentic.” I agree with the comment that there is a battle going on for the soul of Islam. It is… Read more »
David, and William, From the link provided by David: >>>”Islam is a problem, but the main problem is sin. “Their feet are swift to shed blood … and the way of peace they have not known” [from Isa. 59 and Rom. 3] was written long before Islam was born. I do not think Islam is the single motivation behind the radical and incredibly evil deeds that some Muslims are doing. Satan is simply using them as pawns.”<<>>”I do not think Islam is the single motivation behind the radical and incredibly evil deeds that some Muslims are doing. “<<< What? Worshipping… Read more »
David Rogers, Would you say this is true… …“Ultimately it is up to Christians to decide who is a real Christian.” I would think that you would disagree with that. In fact there are amy who call themselves a Christian, who are most decidedly not a Christian. But what is a Christian, and how can one decide what and therefore who is a true Christian? The answer is by their book, the Bible. The Bible is the words of God and in it we find out who and what are the children of God. Now when the question is directed… Read more »
Jake, a Christian educating the masses by his quoting of the Koran, should have a conversation with Mike P who evidently is unaware that there are both flaming liberal and fanatical fundamentalist Christians who quote the Bible quite extensively in support of their widely differing views. Mike dispairs of allowing the mod Muslim to live their version of Islam because, what, these hundreds of millions of Moslems haven’t been enlightened by experts on Islam like Jake? Mike might be assuaged by releasing himself from the burden that neither he nor Jake are sufficiently knowledgable about Islam to be either True… Read more »
William, So 1.8 billion deceived people understand the lie they believe better than someone who sees the lie for what it is and speaks truth? Then I suppose Mormons and Jw’s understand their religion better than any true Christian? Beliefs built on lies are not vehicles of understanding truth. The Muslims do not comprehend WHO they are worshipping. The very heart of their faith is a lie. Their most powerful god is neither powerful or God. And yet they know better what they believe? Many nominal Christians believe whatever they are told. They don’t know why, and mst do not… Read more »
“By the exposing the Koran for what it is, a terrible book of evil, many Muslims will be forced to decide whether to adhere to what it says, and thus become extremist, or seek another path, another ‘God’.” Agreed. The missionary I spoke of earlier was saying exactly that – he is saying that as, using your term, “nominal Muslims” discover that people like ISIS are actually living out the dictates of the Koran and therefore the “pure religion of Islam” – they are rejecting it. He says that’s in part because the deception of Satan that “you are a… Read more »
All truth can be used by God to expose the lie[s] and pave the way for the Gospel.
To think the Muslim people understand their religion better than a well informed Christian believer is to have the wrong perspective. Its not Christianity versus Islam… its Christianity versus the lies of Satan and the spiritual wickedness in high places.nIslam is just a tool of the evil one.
Now what Muslim is going to understand that as true of his faith?
…none
Suppose a non-Jew wrote a piece saying that a group of Jews who stoned disobedient children, burned witches, executed homosexuals, and adulterers, who conquered countries by killing everything: men, women, children, infants, livestock. Suppose the writer says that this group represents “the true Judaism” and points to the Jewish scripture to support his claim. What would you say?
Bill,
Are you asking me?
Anyone.
I would tell him that to know what true Judaism is, he would need to understand the relationship between the Old and New Testaments.
Well, I’m not sure he would find that answer satisfying. I guess my question is, to the casual observer, how does my scenario differ than the idea put forth by this article?
Bill,
By casual observer, do you mean a nonbeliever or a believer who doesn’t think much about these things?
Bill Mac, I would answer with a stunningly great answer but according to the logic of some in this comment stream only a Jew would be qualified to define Judaism so I refrain.
Dean,
Do you men an ethnic Jew? Because if you define ‘Jew’ as one who is a child of God, a true Jew, one circumcised in the heart, then you qualify.
I would say that is not the Jews historical character since 600 AD and the author is ignorant.
Lydia: Was the Mosaic law somehow abrogated in 600 AD? (from a Jewish perspective)
Bill, Are you comparing the Law to the Koran or Hadith?
Have you forgotten Jesus Christ came as a Jew? The Muslims know it. Some folk Islam tribes even adopt Him as a prophet to pray to.
I am not sure where you are going with this angle. We are to love and reach out to individual Muslims. agreeing to rewrite history or shame others into ignoring it in order to appeal to a group seems dangerous to me.
I don’t have a problem saying to muslims that they are following a false religion. I’m not sure the benefit of telling muslims that they aren’t really muslims after all. I don’t see how that points them to Christ. You may, as I’ve said, just convince them to conform to the violent jihadist form of Islam that you claim is their true faith. It’s like going to a synagogue and saying: “you people suck at being Jews, let me tell you about Jesus”. Or like walking into a Hindu gathering and saying: “not only is Hinduism wrong, but you’re doing… Read more »
Bill, I was not aware anyone was using this article as a evangelistic tool. What I see all over government, media and even churches is a rewriting of history and a need to silence any history of Islam that is not first sanitized as peaceful.
We even have people who claim ISIS behavior is not Islam. Is that true or not?
I get a bit disgusted with any shaming or censoring on uncomfortable topics. Just because some idiots might use it in ways we do not like is not a good enough reason.
Lydia: Jared’s comment at 2:28 yesterday.
It will not be long before another group arises out of Islam that will make ISIS look weak in comparison. The News Media has all of this blown out of proportion. ISIS is nothing but a bunch of murdering thugs. They are about as organized as a black Friday sale at Wal-Mart. There will always be fighting in the middle east, if not one group, then it will be another. They have been fighting since day one, (Cain killed Abel). I’m not saying these groups don’t get organized at times. When the rubber meets the highway, it boils down to… Read more »
Yep – imagine that. Jess views it just like POTUS says to view it.
Just playin Jess – kinda. 😉
Tarheel,
Everything is political with you. I have no idea what the President says about ISIS, and I don’t really care. I draw my own conclusions about the situation, what about you?
I never thought I would say this, but please read parsonsmike’s comments, I believe he is dead on. Mike is one of the very few on Voices that mentions the devil being in the arrangements.
These comments may be helpful. They were written by Dr. Gary Corwin. Dr. Corwin is Associate Editor of the Evangelical Missions Quarterly. He served for many years with Arab World Mission and now with SIM-International. The two sections I pasted come from his article, “Ten Key Things to Know about Islam,” which was published in the October 2004 issue of EMQ. 3. Islam is a political vision as much as a religious one. Muslims believe their destiny is to rule everywhere. The world is divided into two parts, Dar es Salaam and Dar el Harb, the land of peace where… Read more »
I think that for the most part humans want the same things. I think that Muslim mothers in the ME want the same thing you and I do for our children, to be raised up in peace and happiness. Most people, Muslims included, don’t want to harm anybody. Do I want the Salem witch trials to be ascribed to my faith? No. Do I want the slaughter of literally millions of Native Americans by so called Christians ascribed to my faith? No. Racist Teachings? No. Slavery? No. So, if i don’t want a false characterization to define my faith, and… Read more »
John, Are you advocating that we as Christians and we as Southern Baptists take no stand on whether Muslims are lost and enemies of God? Because no one here on this thread is advocating any political moves or military moves in the ME. But the ‘good’ moderate Muslims are leaning on the Koran as a way to eternal life. Are you okay with that? Showing them that the Koran is an evil book could go a long way to bringing them to the Lord. That’s a far cry from mischaracterizing their faith. Rather their faith is built on a BIG… Read more »
Mike,
Never said I was okay with that. William had it right when he said, “We agree that Jesus is the Way, Truth, and Life. Seems like putting Him forward, first, and foremost would be a better approach.” It seems to me that dehumanizing people is not the best way to gain an audience with them.
Yes, perhaps the message of “ISIS is the true Islam” will turn a few people away from Islam, but what if it has the opposite effect? Suppose your arguments are so convincing that these apostate muslims who spend all their time NOT beheading, burning, raping, and pillaging their way around the world repent of their peaceful apostasy and join ISIS?
I don’t think “ISIS is the true Islam” is a necessary prerequisite for “Jesus is the only way of salvation”. Quite the opposite.
Bill, I’m not sure I ever said it was “necessary,” only that it is, or at least could be, helpful for evangelistic reasons. But at the same time, I think (I know) I can comfortably say that it is “necessary” for someone of a false religion to deny the validity of that religion in order to trust in Jesus. So with this in mind, yes, it is “necessary” for an Islamic Muslim to recognize the truth about Islam, otherwise he would be either practicing a false, modified version of Islam, or the epitome of it via ISIS. Either way he… Read more »
Jared: Paragraph two, right with you. Paragraph three, having a little difficulty parsing through it. Whether a Muslim is following ISIS Islam, or Sunni, or Shiite, or Friendly-Muslim-Down-The-Street-Who-Makes-Great-Hummus Islam, they are in need of Christ. They need to turn from whichever version of Islam they are following. But I truly don’t see the value of saying to my neighbor when he brings me hummus that he’s an apostate Muslim and then inviting him to bible study.
I finally just read the Wood article in its entirety. I highly recommend others in this conversation do the same, if you have not already done so. It seems to me many of us are talking past each other. Wood does not say ISIS is or represents the most authentic or true Islam. He says it is a “distinct variety of Islam.” My hope, as a follower of Jesus, is that all Muslims, whether adherents to the ISIS variety of Islam or any of the many other varieties of Islam, will come to recognize the false grounding of their faith… Read more »
The logic of saying, “Don’t say that ISIS represents true Islam because it’s offensive to non-ISIS muslims,” I think, is an unsteady argument. By this logic, a Christian could never say that Mormonism is a manipulated version of Christianity, in fear of offending Mormons everywhere. Or Jehovah’s Witnesses, Branch Davidians, or really any kind of religion. It pulls the rug out from underneath us to have conversations about these kinds of things. Of course if we–I–were intentionally being insulting, then that would be another question. But the intent of the article has no intention of being insulting. In my estimation,… Read more »
Excellent article, Jared! I appreciate the thoughtfulness in your reporting.
Jared, Excellent post you have helped all of us think a little more on this issue. In their minds the ISIS folks are the true representatives of Islam. While it has been argued that we as Christians are not able to decide if this is the fact is strange. One does not have to be of a certain religion to be able to tell if a person is trying to live that religion. All one has to do is objectively compare the believers life with the person they are supposed to be following ( Christ, Mohammed, Buddha etc). For us… Read more »
The trigger on this for me was the phrase “true Islam” as if Christians with a smattering of knowledge about Islam are able to pronounce such things for all the 1.8b followers of that world religion. At the least one should have a bit of hesitation in employing such absolutes in that context. Secondarily, I believe Jared in a comment declared his purpose to be evangelistic at least in part. Bill Mac is way ahead of me in putting that in perspective. Stepping back a bit, I think this is less about Islam or evangelism than it is about Obama.… Read more »
“I’m not sure if you didn’t read the comment thread or what, but you’re doing a phenomenal job of missing my point. ”
Not at all, Chris. I am quite familiar with all the minutiae. I am quite familiar with jerks in Christendom.
I am trying to focus on a much bigger picture.
Gentlemen and ladies:
I do not think you understand what is at stake. We sit here on a blog talking in intellectual and theological terminology about a world religion whose sole goal is to conquer the world and force all people groups to submit to islam. I would suggest that instead of discussion that we actually read islamic scripture and history, keeping our eyes open to the reality that muslims of all stripes have forced on the civilized world.
“We need to reach the world for Christ!”
“Onward, Christian soldiers!”
While I grant the tactics these days (things were not always thus) are different, the goal is not altogether different. Throw theonomists into the mix and we get even closer.
Theonomists only believe in individual freedom for themselves.
“I’m not sure if you didn’t read the comment thread or what, but you’re doing a phenomenal job of missing my point. ”
Not at all, Chris. I am quite familiar with all the minutiae. I am quite familiar with jerks in Christendom.
I am trying to focus on a much bigger picture.
Given some of the expressed attitudes in this stream, and the equating of ISIS with Islam (which seems a bit odd since likely not any in this stream would equate Baptist, or Southern Baptist, or “this form” of Southern Baptist with Christianity), the resulting desire seems to be: “Let’s rout the heathens. We got your apocalypse. We’ll get ISIS, but since that is really Islam, we’ll get the rest in time, too.” Is this really the path that some want to follow? Exactly what to do to resolve the ISIS situation is complicated, and smart folks all over the world… Read more »
“Is this really the path that some want to follow?” Why is that always the leap?Simply Because some of us think Islam is a violent disaster does not mean we want to kill what you refer to as the heathen. How silly. That is nothing but a convo stopper. I just don’t fall for it anymore. If I don’t agree with you then the leap is made I want to kill innocent people, right? That also does not mean every single Muslim is violent but it IS a religion that focuses on ‘forced submission’ as its grand theme so you… Read more »
Lydia: “Their status” is something we cannot change anymore than they can change the status of Southern Baptists which, except for the clothing, isn’t a lot different. Baptists also believe in “submission” for religious reasons.
As an American who believes in freedom of religion, and any American, you have to let them be as they are. If you try and change that it just isn’t going to happen.
BTW: Is there anything you haven’t done? Every subject you have a personal story which doesn’t seem to jive with experiences others have had when dealing with Muslims. Just sayin.
“Exactly what to do to resolve the ISIS situation is complicated, and smart folks all over the world are thinking this through. Hopefully soon we will have a viable response.”
It’s not that complicated. Find them. Kill them.
That ISIS can be defeated on the battlefield is not really a big issue, of concern, yes, but ISIS munitions and logistical support are very limited compared to what could be brought against it. As the caption suggests, it is not the math that is of prime concern, it is the aftermath. And in this case, a bit of “pre-math,” too. I am reminded of a group of MBA students given a task to construct a mental map on paper detailing the linkages of a particular organizational issue. Proud were several with the detail of their conceptualizations, as well be… Read more »
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152572581336809&fref=nf
I guess what I was trying to say earlier is that the issue with every conflict is the problem of the fallen human nature. The ideology is really just a pretext. So to demonize a whole group of people for the actions of a few is really not a good idea. And certainly declaring war on 1.8 billion people is not wise.
“I guess what I was trying to say earlier is that the issue with every conflict is the problem of the fallen human nature.” this is more than a “conflict”. This is not a disagreement with Mexico over illegals. It is flat out evil pure and simple and innocent lives are at stake. ” The ideology is really just a pretext.” For what? ” So to demonize a whole group of people for the actions of a few is really not a good idea. And certainly declaring war on 1.8 billion people is not wise.” Who is demonizing and who… Read more »
What I mean is all wars have a pretext whether it be politics, religion, resources, or protection against threats, but ultimately the cause is the fallen nature of human beings. I am saying that Islam isn’t the problem, any more than Christianity is the problem when Christians kill. People were killing folks by the bushel basket before Islam, and they will today, because they are fallen people.
“People were killing folks by the bushel basket before Islam, and they will today, because they are fallen people.”
Evil Tyrants make it necessary. Unless you are willing to hand your kids over to the Hitler youth and support sending Jews to the ovens. So my uncles were equally “fallen” because they fought against this evil tyrant and even killed people?
You are making a moral equivlancy arguement in this matter. For what purpose, I do not know.
For the purpose of demonstrating that you must look deeper than ideology. It’s easy to say that Islam is the problem, I think that Islam is a pretext, a symptom. And no I am not making a moral equivalency, but you are definitely insinuating that when Christians go to war it’s just but when Muslims do it’s evil. War comes from mankind’s fallen nature, nowhere else. Have you ever noticed that even the concept of just war calls war a necessary evil? That is not to say that all participants are equally evil. But war is part of the fallen… Read more »
Lydia: Bringing Calvinism in this discussion makes me want to scream. We know your view, stick to the subject, although some things you are saying here make me want to comment I won’t. We’ve had this discussion before. And I agree with William, David Rogers and Bill.
Here is my big question behind all this:
If we all (i.e. everyone in the US and in the West) could come to an agreement and accept the premise that the version of Islam that ISIS is peddling is really the most authentic version of Islam, and other versions are really faux-Islam, what would be the implications?
Would we:
1) Make Islam illegal?
2) Round up all self-professed Muslims and place them in concentration camps?
3) Declare war against all self-professed Muslim countries?
Why or why not?
If not, what is the real underlying point behind all this discussion?
I guess what I am saying David is that ISIS is a threat regardless of the ideology. We can spend all day talking about whether or not ISIS is a legitimate rendition of Islam in one of its various forms, but in the end, it is simply a military threat and should be dealt with on those terms.
Further, when people villianize folks on the basis of their faith and even call for banning that faith there is nothing more unAmeican than that. We cannot ban religions in America, because if we do, we lose who we are as Americans.
Yes, John, I hear what you are saying, and if I understand you correctly, am basically in agreement.
Anyone else?
I agree. Guess I missed where someone called for a ban.
William, Not saying they did. Just wondering, if they are not, what, then, is the ultimate purpose and implications
of this discussion, from the point of view of those trying to make such a major deal about ISIS being “true Islam”?
David, Voices is a Political Blog except when it is a Chruch Growth by Business Principles Blog. You are mistaken to ask serious questions that require concrete answers. In fact, if Dave Miller will forgive me, you are a spoil-sport and likely to bring this rollicking conversation to a screeching halt. On the plus side; you may give us pause to consider President Obama’s strategy. It is his intention to educate and prosper radical extremists until they are so satisfied with secular humanism and worldly comforts that they stop caring what their prophets have said. It has worked to de-radicalize… Read more »
“1) Make Islam illegal? 2) Round up all self-professed Muslims and place them in concentration camps? 3) Declare war against all self-professed Muslim countries?” None of the above. :o) The focus has to be on individual value. Individual responsibility. Individual rights. Our Bill of Rights and Sharia Law (in any variation) cannot coexist. (There is a huge tension there for many Muslims here. As Christians we should be in the forefront of the value of all people. Our value is inherent in our existence. We can live peaceably with anyone who agrees to these values. People have a choice to… Read more »
I have no objection to what you say here. But I am still wondering what this has to do with insisting that ISIS is “true Islam.”
I think their behavior fits the Koran and preceding Islamic history. After 9/11 I attended a Koran study group. We thought it best to educate ourselves especially because Muslims we knew (professionals) could not contain their glee over the Twin Towers. This confused people who had known them for years as peaceful types.
The scariest part was that educated Westernized Muslims living in the West were buying into it all. Most came from a cultural Muslim background.
What would true Islam look like according to the Koran? What would True Christianity look like according to the NT?
“What would True Islam look like according to the Koran? What would True Christianity look like according to the NT?” And that, Lydia, speaks volumes. Genuine Christians should indeed believe and act with NT mission … Islam certainly challenges their adherents to follow sacred texts. In addition to teachings regarding “infidels” in the Koran, Islam’s prophetic traditions contained in the Hadith should also concern Christians. While we may brand those who are extremely serious in both Christian and Islamic faiths as “radical”, they are perhaps closer to core belief and practice than we want to believe. A Christian worldview with… Read more »
9/11 a Muslim’s perspective:
Those Muslims that live in our area were deeply saddened and shocked at 9/11. They still are.
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/09/11/911-a-muslim-americans-perspective/
The Muslim women I have worked with wear the covering on their head, pants, long sleeved shirts, speak perfect English, yet come from differing areas of the Middle East. Some wear long dresses.
After the bombing in Boston, they were threatened by people so badly we had to escort some from the store in which I worked at the time. Seemed we were the threat and not them.
David, I see what you are driving at. I don’t think we should do 1, 2 or 3. Instead our nation should have a coherent strategy of how to soundly defeat ISIS. Our nation’s strategy should not be confused with our strategy to win Muslims of all denominations to Christ. There is a clear Biblical distinction of the church and states role in the world ( which I think is often confused). The purpose of the church is the great commission. From our perspective whether or not ISIS is genuinely close to pure Islam is a mote point since our… Read more »
Wilbur, Thanks for your insightful comment. Yes, indeed, I do believe that confusion over the roles of the state and the church is behind a lot of the differences in perspective being expressed in this discussion. I do not think it is the role of the state to make theological arguments either in favor of Islam or against it, or in favor of or against Christianity. As Christians, that is our role. Though I have hesitated to say it, knowing the emotional responses it provokes, I think once again, William Thornton is pretty much on target here when he suggests… Read more »
I agree David Rogers.
Well said, David. Comprehensively well said.
Just think: If a conspiracy ruled the world, and it caused the wars either directly or by manipulation of people (the most likely), what would you all say. There was a story on the old Star Trek series in which an evil life form brought Klingons and humans on a ship and caused them to become enraged and kill one another. Then it would bring them back to life to repeat the process. It drew its sustenance from the rage, and Satan and self and sin draw their power from the rage between people over things that are really secondary… Read more »
David R. Thanks for your reasoned and well thought out points on this issue – it has brought on some more thinking and provoked me to more study on this matter. Thanks again. I do think that Regardless of whether ISIS is “true Islam” that Lydia’s point here is an absolutely true statement.: “Our Bill of Rights and Sharia Law (in any variation) cannot coexist.” I would add that any form of civilized and peaceful government based in individual freedom would find that same inability to coexist. ISIS is not alone in the Islamic religion wishing to bring about Sharia… Read more »
Anything that is against the law of our land cannot exist.
It seems in talking with those Muslims who have migrated here, that there are differing views and practices of Islam in differing parts of the world. They differ from one nation, region to another.
They tell me tensions occur when they settle in a community here in America, where people have a one dimensional view of Islam or are unfamiliar with Islam which they have the opinion that most of America fits that description.
According to historians on PBS, 10 to 15 percent of Africans brought over for slavery were Muslims. They were forced to convert to Christianity. During the 1930s and 40s, Arab immigrants began to establish communities and build mosques. African-American Muslims had already built their own mosques, and by 1952 there was more than 1,000 in North America. After a 30 years of excluding most immigrants, the United States flung open its doors again in 1952 and an entirely new group of Muslims came from places such as Palestine (many had come in 1948 after the establishment of Israel), Iraq, and… Read more »
Put the shoe on another foot Debbie.
Were you a Christian living now in Syria, Iraq, or Libya, might you not also be willing to express to your neighbors your sadness and horror over the loss of innocent life as a byproduct of war?
Or would you be willing to stand up on a soapbox in such a scenario when asked or observed by your neighbors and say “Serves you buggers right”.
Most would keep their mouths shut or at least express empathy until the day the neighbors who share their beliefs outnumber those who don’t.
Scott: As a Christian and as who I am, I would never say “Serves you buggers right”. I would genuinely be sad. Even if I lived in Iraq etc. . Note the link to Samaritans purse. I personally have known and worked with Muslim men and women. There were none among those who I worked with or who own businesses here who were glad for 9/11. None were hostile to Americans. They came here to enjoy the same freedoms we do. As I said, the store where I worked escorted customers out because they were threatening Muslims after the Boston… Read more »
I would like to see Isis stopped. Isis, not Muslims in general. I would love to see Muslims and many lost people come to Christ, not wiped out. Without Christ the alternative in death is hell. That too makes me very sad.
I assume most of us here would hold to a historical/grammatical hermeneutic when it comes to interpreting the Bible. If muslims use the same hermeneutic to the koran, sira and haddith, you get ISIS. Islam has spread primarily through conquest and subjugation from its very beginnings. That being said, that does not give us leave to target all those who claim to be muslim, we should live in peace with those we can. This must be clear, you cannot live in peace with Al Queda, ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. They do not wish to live in peace. Pray for them,… Read more »
Bingo? Muslim fundamentalism goes to murderous extremes based on strict literal interpretation of Koran. Christian fundamentalism, based on strict literal interpretation of The Bible, while a pain in the backside in extreme manifestations, generally does not call for the severing of heads over refusal to convert or in the event of insults/cartoons containing depictions of Jesus.
Those that would counter by pointing to the Old Testament record of “Herem” “cherem” “the ban” should also remember that the purpose of God was not immediately “evangelistic” when He sent the children of Israel in.
” … the purpose of God was not immediately “evangelistic” when He sent the children of Israel in.” Unfortunately, the children of Israel did not drive out the inhabitants of the land as commanded … and they are still reaping the results of that bad choice. While we may desire God to nuke radical Islam, I am reminded of an exchange between Paul and Timothy in 2 Timothy 3-4 following Paul’s exhortation “There will be terrible times in the last days.” Essentially, Timothy inquired what he should do if he lived to see those events unfold … Paul counseled him… Read more »
My bets with Max on “not being able to hear”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ntUae8Q-Vo
This is an interesting history lesson concerning Radical Islam by Jay Smith. You have to cut through some arrogance but the content is worth it.
Of course, we all would hope that the members of ISIS would get saved. But, things being what they are, the leaders of the nations of our world need to do something to wipe this bunch of murderous thugs off the face of the planet. They need to be stopped.
David
” … the leaders of the nations of our world need to do something …”
With their numbers totaling 1.6 billion and enough combined military might to put a big hammer down, the Muslim nations themselves could stop this band of radicals without Western intervention … “if” they really wanted to.
David: I agree, Isis needs to be stopped. But I don’t agree that all Muslims are in the same category as Isis. That is more fear mongering and dare I say hatred than actuality.
Debbie, First of all, you are constantly trying to find something bad in what I write….always. And, you always find the worst possible way to read what I write. Secondly, I said nothing…..absolutely NOTHING about ALL Muslims. Did I? Thirdly, there is not hatred on my part. Thus, you are just out and out misjudging the intent of what I actually wrote. Fourthly, I’m not surprised by your answer to me, since I’ve come to expect such things from you, and from a few others in this blog. Again, I will say…..ISIS needs to be wiped off the face of… Read more »
David: I did not intend to imply that you meant all Muslims. My apologies if that was the implication. I think I said that more for clarification than that you implied this. I agree with your comment.
I will say this, though, Debbie, and you can munch and chew on it, and spit it out however you wish. I do believe that the Koran teaches Muslims to be violent. It teaches them to kill all infidels. It is a book that encourages murder.
Now, not all Muslims follow the clear teaching of their “Bible,” thankfully. Some Muslims are Muslims in name only…a cultural thing….and, they are peaceful people. BUT, IF they actually followed the teachings of the Koran, then they would kill anyone, who refuses to convert to Islam.
David
Again, I will say…..ISIS needs to be wiped off the face of the planet. They need to be stopped, as does Al Qaeda and Boko Haram, and some of the other radical, mean, murdering, Muslim groups, which care nothing for human life.
Absolutely agree. Join one of these groups voluntarily, and in my opinion you have forfeited your right to continue breathing.
They are certainly not presently all in the category of ISIS Debbie. But the inherent theological bent of Islam and its commonly accepted sources of religious authority might tend to carry more weight with them than The Bible when push comes to shove.
Fear can be a good instinct in the right circumstances.
From Christianity Today:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2015/february/nation-of-suspect-thy-neighbor.html
Consider the source.
I saw a status update on my Facebook this morning asking the question: Can a good Muslim be a good American? The answer given on FB was, no, for a variety of reasons, all centered around the idea that a Muslim’s first allegiance is (or ought to be) toward Allah. To some degree, I understand this line of reasoning and concede that it makes sense—to some degree. The problem for me, however, is, don’t we as Christians (or shouldn’t we) basically say the same thing with regard to our ultimate allegiance to God? Now I know what many of you… Read more »
David, I highly recommend Leonard Verduin’s “Anatomy of a Hybrid” which addresses the issue of Christians living in a composite society. It is a good thing, btw. Wish more Christians understood that. America was to be the great composite society experiement. Man can govern himself and live peacably with others who believe different things about God or don’t even believe in God. I say we are to be “light of the world” not the darkness of the world. One thing we do as believers in a free society is we discuss cultic groups who totally misrepresent Jesus and use Him… Read more »
Muslims in general do not believe themselves to be Isis. Isn’t it important that they believe they are not Isis or have any ties to or condone Isis? I believe it is. Lydia: I read what you write and I cringe. I could be wrong but it just seems as if you see danger where there is none. I agree David. I think that is where I am coming from and not necessarily because of scripture, but this is how I feel. As an American, I believe that everyone should be able to worship as they believe in peace etc.… Read more »
Muslims in general may not describe or see themselves as ISIS but I do believe in general that they approve and would prefer Sharia Law.
Lydia, Just finished listening to the Jay Smith talk. Pretty interesting. In a lot of ways, what he says is not, as I understand it, incompatible with what I am saying (not that I am in any way an expert, or have anywhere close to the knowledge he has on Islam). As he says, it is up to the government and the military to defeat ISIS on a military level. But it is up to us as Christians, with the gospel, to defeat Islam, on an ideological level. I agree with him that there is a place, in sharing Christ… Read more »
DAvid, I agree with most of it except I am not a pacifist in the same way he is as a Mennonite. I do think we (as government of the people) should defend the innocent with a sword if need be. I am not as keen concerning friendship evangelism. I do have Muslim friends and colleagues so I hope you will try and understand this is not an “either/or” convo. The last thing I would want them to think is that my love for Christ and others does NOT define me. My early experiences as a teen with Muslims taught… Read more »
And, I am very ashamed of “Christianity’s” bloody history. Personally, I would call it the “state” Crusades using Jesus as cover.
An interesting note: How many books can you find on the Crusades? Hundreds. How many will you find on the Islamic conquest and occupation from Spain to India? Only a few. Interesting, eh?
Niebuhr’s “Christ and Culture” also good.
“Is it not true that, just as we as Christians take different approaches to these issues, different groups of Muslims take different approaches as well?” Great post-within-the-post, Brother Rogers! Your thoughts are more than half-baked! At first read, my mind drifted toward the foundation which supports the architecture of Christian vs. Muslim, regardless of the theological spectrum of approaches to belief and practice within each religion. What is the primary driver of these faiths? Within Christianity, most of us would reply fulfillment of “The Great Commission.” Christians are challenged to follow the instruction of the resurrected Jesus to spread His… Read more »
David,
Would you really draw the line at Sharia? And how would you draw the line at that point?
wilbur
There should be one law of the land that doesn’t discriminate on the basis of religion. Not sure if you are referring to something more specific. If so, please clarify, and I’ll try to answer more specifically.
David,
Thank you, my question was based on something you wrote that assumed that peaceful coexistence with Islam was possible. You answer suggests that there is a point where you would personally take a stand. It is good to know that if Islam reaches its goals here that you would oppose it.
wilbur
Like you I hold to a little bit of two kingdoms with a little bit of Anabaptist thrown in. First, I believe that this present age is evil and it is in a state of decay morally. (Luke 18:8; Gal. 1:4; 2 Timothy 3:1-5, 4:1-4)Because of the corruption of man, I hold no hope that any lasting solutions can be found through political means. Second, I think that many Baptists don’t understand that we are not OT Israel. Most revival messages, are centered on OT passages like 2 Chron. 2:14 and are misapplied to us. Third, I think that we… Read more »
Question:
Arguments being made here that most Muslims are not ISIS/Al Qaeda/Muslim brotherhood/Boka Haram/Hamas/etc and are not supportive of thier agenda – well let’s say that’s true – (and to some degree I think it likely is) why isn’t the majority shouting down the minority – or even joining in efforts to silence them?
Tarheel,
Interesting comment…..and, amen!
David
Does thier silence and refusal to join efforts to end “the extremists” terrorism not lend itself to some level of culpability?
These are serious questions – I’m not trying to be overly provocative.
I would say that the vast majority of folks fighting against ISIS are Muslims themselves.
I too have asked why moderate Muslims are not decrying the actions ISIS and these other groups. But to be fair, if any of you have traveled outside the country, you know that our American media is incredibly insular. Watch TV in a different country and you will be amazed at what is being reported that will never get headlines in the US.
Give us some ideas. I have only seen reporting when in Europe which is basically, “America is at it again” type of presentation. And I do understand that attitude to a certain extent. But I often think of Colin Powell telling the UN (?) that all America asked Europe for was a place to bury their dead.
No, I’m not talking about what the news is saying about America. What I mean is that the news I’ve seen (most of my travel has been in Asia) is much more globally focused, and not just about the country that I’m in. Much more so than in the US.
“Does thier silence and refusal to join efforts to end “the extremists” terrorism not lend itself to some level of culpability? ” Yes. But many are simply afraid because of extremist in their own religion or they tend to stick in groups and people follow their group. Dearborn was a lesson for us all but it has been so twisted by the media I fear we cannot now learn from it. Our bigger question is why people come here (or why do they stay) if they do not agree with our Constitition/ Bill of Rights? One reason is because even… Read more »
There have been instances of Muslims decrying ISIS, but in what way do you think this should be done? There is no Muslim spokesman in America, just a lot of individual people and individual religious leaders, very few (or any?) of whom have a national platform. So how would you even know if they did speak out?
I suspect there has been widespread condemnation of ISIS among Muslims and we just don’t know it because how would we? And whenever such condemnation does get reported, it’s buried among a pile of other news.
From a quick google search, took about 15 seconds to find numerous examples of Muslims condemning ISIS:
http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2014/08/think-muslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html
“I suspect there has been widespread condemnation of ISIS among Muslims and we just don’t know it because how would we?”
Social media. Especially with young Muslims in the West who are adept at social media. It would definitely get out and go viral. I am not saying there are NO Muslims decrying the violence.
Why would it definitely go viral? As it is, I *have* seen Muslim tweets condemning ISIS, but there’s no reason to expect them to go viral. Besides, viral tweets are a weird way to gauge response.
I agree social media can be weird. It is what it is. Muslims are aware of hashtag activism and other social media outlets :o)
People who are actively engaged in being against something….make it known and try to garner mass support. That is the way it works.
Look at all the blogs that are dedicated to spiritual abuse in Christendom.
There is a reason young Muslims are not going that route in droves. What is it?
Here’s another example from today’s news: three London girls head to Syria to join ISIS. It is thought they may have been recruited by a Scottish girl who went a couple of years ago. The Scottish girl’s (Muslim) family had a few pointed words: “In a statement released through their lawyer Aamer Anwar, the Mahmood family said they were ‘full of horror and anger that their daughter may have had a role to play in the recruitment of these young girls to ISIS’. They also sent a message to Aqsa: ‘You are a disgrace to your family and the people… Read more »
Another good one:
“More than 1000 Muslims formed a human shield around Oslo’s synagogue on Saturday, offering symbolic protection for the city’s Jewish community and condemning an attack on a synagogue in neighboring Denmark last weekend.”
http://news.yahoo.com/norwegian-muslims-form-human-ring-around-oslo-synagogue-102527616.html
Did you shout down the bad behavior of various “Christians” when they performed for public recognition? I know that I did not. Where would I shout? If the news interviewed me, I would have “shouted” but they did not. I don’t think it is fair to condemn the “average” Muslim. You have many (if you look) prominent Muslims who do shout and they almost always shout that ISIS does not represent them and should not be doing what ISIS is doing. I feel that Mr. Obama’s comments on ISIS are models of how to reduce the recruiting of “radicalized” people… Read more »
One reason many may be talking past each other on this thread is that any mention that ISIS is true Islam makes some jump to the conclusion that those making that claim (which can be proven by the Koran) want all Muslims wiped out or something like that. That is simply a convo stopper. It is simply away to appear pious instead of having a conversation about what is true Islam according to their holy book. UBL lamented several times that most Muslims do not know the Koran. He saw that as making his job harder. Does anyone remember that?… Read more »
Lydia, As conservative Evangelicals, we generally believe that a hermeneutically sound interpretation of our book, the Bible, is the best gauge for determining who is an authentic (or good) Christian, and who is not. At least, it is one of the key factors. I, too, believe that. But many people around the world, both professing Christians and non-Christians, do not believe that is the best gauge. I think they are wrong. But nevertheless, their ideas are powerful ideas that hold a lot of sway over public global opinion. And here and there, they probably have a few valid points to… Read more »
David, I think I understand what you are trying to say. I will just add that the Koran encourages/insists upon violence toward those who won’t convert. There is the “Mohammad has no power” part of the Koran and then the “Mohammed now has power” part. As far as religious freedom goes, of course I agree with you, unless the religion insists upon enforcing their own laws here…. such as Sharia. Then we have a problem. Because Sharia cannot coexist with our Bill of Rights. Just some things to consider. And I will again say that I am pleased most Muslims… Read more »
Granted, there are no places in the US implementing Sharia, not even Dearborn, despite lots of squawking to the contrary.
Right Chris. There has been a lot of story stretching among Evangelicals. Even the stories of Dearborn are stretched beyond truth. Here is just one example debunked by Snopes.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/sharia.asp
“Because Sharia cannot coexist with our Bill of Rights”
Not consistently. And that’s the problem. It’s a flat out contradiction. Then if one is to read the Koran, contradictions are no problem. There must be a consistent thread throughout or it becomes irrational. Rational people can’t relate to contradictory positions. As a Christian can’t rationally deny the bible and remain a CONSISTENT Christian.
Lydia: The charge of piousness is a conversation stopper. It’s an easy argument but untrue. Fact is that other religions including Muslims are people too, and having them as friends or liking them, caring about them is not about piousness as much as it is not wanting history to repeat itself. As has been mentioned there have been threats to them by Americans, bad treatment, and treatment much like the black people suffered before. That is my concern and I tend to stand for and want to protect them. That is all it is. I see false fear being spoken… Read more »
That should be those of other religions.
If I am wrong, I am wrong. But as an American who does believe in the Bill of Rights, who knows that Muslims also believe in the Bill of Rights, and knows, can quote them, better than most Americans, don’t be fooled by those who espouse doom and gloom, they are just as much American as you or I, they believe in America which is why they are here, and should be treated equally in every way as they are entitled to that.
Also, Qur’anic hermeneutics, just like biblical hermeneutics, is sometimes tricky.
My thoughts exactly. Just as there are differing interpretations of scripture, their are differing interpretations of the Quran, which like Christianity is why there are so many different groups. So which one would you say is the “true Islam”, they all would say they are just as Southern Baptists etc. believe they have the right and true theology.
Debbie, I am assuming this is a Christian site. “Also, Qur’anic hermeneutics, just like biblical hermeneutics, is sometimes tricky.” As True Christians, don’t we espouse sola scriptura? Surely, if Christianity is correct, ALL other belief systems that oppose Christianity would have to be false. Interpretation of certain texts within the bible accurately is possible just because it is truth and we as saved, have the ability to interpret them. The Koran, being a fiction, is going to be inconsistent with truth and hence sometimes suffer impossible hermeneutics. Thats why the Haddiths are necessary to accurately understand the Koran.That said, one… Read more »
Bill Hessford: That is not something I wrote. That is a quote from David Rogers. Your argument would be with him.
Of course this is a Christian site. Are you saying to defend those Muslims who are not radical from over zealous Americans is not Christian? I would beg to differ.
I realized you used David’s quote. I was getting at the village atheist notion that the bible can be made (legitimately), to say anything. Then moving to the koran with some sort of equivalency. As Christians, we believe the bible is, as Schaeffer says, true Truth. The koran is not, and not from God. So hermeneutics is different between the two. Race politics, I’ll leave to you. I must admit, I don’t see your jump. I’m not looking for a fight.
I have noticed that those who are putting all Muslims in the same class are predominately white.
Nice try Debbie, my wife was thrown out of Egypt by the Muslims. They took by force all her families property and possessions. She was only 14, the rapes and murders by MODERATE Muslims against Christians, (her stories are horrendous) opened my eyes. Oh, my wife is black, so the latent reverse racism in your comments are giving your political bias away. Racism has no place in your Christianity, Debbie. All man is metaphysically equal, it’s our ethical behaviour that separates us.
Debbie, By the same class, are you meaning that all Muslims hate God, hate Jesus, are lost and headed to everlasting punishment? And that would include moderates and radical Muslims, unless of course the Lord saves them. And by predominantly white, are you saying that you are not meaning those who are all white, but only those whose whiteness is more than 50 % of their heritage? And what it really seems like you are saying is that you are accusing white people of being racist. And not just white people, the white people in this discussion, which I have… Read more »
And it seems to me that you like to make radical statements Mike.
BTW Mike: I’m not dividing the body, they are doing that all by themselves.
Liberalism within the ranks, sometimes wolves, cause most division. Noetic effects of sin taint us all. That’s why sola scriptura is essential. Nothing is the equivalent of God’s Holy word. Listening to local leftist ideology, and bringing that to the bible as some sort of interpretation aid is verging on heresy. (far right, not any better).Unless one has the Spirit of God, he cannot see the kingdom of God. One has to believe that God does teach us clearly and we do reach this truth, or man is lost still. A speck of dust, who knows where? For me, Christ… Read more »
How to truthfully read my statements: I am a Christian first and foremost with all that entails(albeit not a separatist). Read my statements in this context to get a true reading comprehension.
As for the white remarks, I think racism comes in various forms. This being no exception.
Muslims are not a race.
“As for the white remarks, I think racism comes in various forms. This being no exception.”
I agree. Your remarks are racist.
Mike: Just look at the comments and read the names of who makes what comment.
Bill Mac: No, Islam is not a race, but you wouldn’t know that by the reaction of most Americans.
I don’t know most Americans.
Debbie,
“Mike: Just look at the comments and read the names of who makes what comment.”
You mean I should decide race by names?
Listen, Debbie, I don’t know what color your skin is. And I don’t care. But I would appreciate it if YOU would quit making racist remarks.
Thank you.
Bill Mac, That is why you need someone like Debbie, who does know most Americans and their reactions. Strange though, although I have a heard the reaction of a few Americans, none of them would make me think they were racist against Muslims. Maybe that is because Muslim isn’t a race, its a religion. Its the religion of Islam. And people of various ‘races’ practice it with various degrees of intensity. But the only person bringing up race is Debbie. Now Bill Cosby is a black man. So by her reasoning, every person named Bill is black. But Bill Clinton… Read more »
History is bound to repeat itself unless deterred/checked by an equal and opposite force, that’s the nature of fallen mankind.
Thanks Lydia. I agree.
I’m willing to live and live live. I don’t know if everybody in the Middle East and now large parts of Europe feel the same.
Thought some of you might find this edifying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yCmnyzYeW8#t=247
Brother of two Christian victims of ISIS calls in to SAT-7 live programme ‘We Will Sing’
Who are these who are fighting and dying in the fight against ISIS? Mostly other Muslims with a few Christian militias.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/a-little-pharisaical-southern-baptist-copt-martyrs-christianity/
He stole my thought. 🙂 Christians are quick to reject others claiming the name when it comes to theology, but quick to adopt them when it comes to persecution. One minute: “They are not true Christians!” The next: “Our brothers in the faith are suffering!”
“Christians are quick to reject others claiming the name when it comes to theology, but quick to adopt them when it comes to persecution. ”
Christians as in all Christians? Not fair, Chris. I agree with Pope Francis said about our Coptic Brothers.
Some of them may not be really “suffering” as opposed to getting side glances from non-muslims in the U.S.
“So even as we acknowledge the obvious and describe ISIS as Islamic, we should give the rest of Islam credit for being, well, Islamic as well, and for having available arguments and traditions and interpretations that marginalized this kind of barbarism in the past, and God willing can do so once again.”
http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/18/in-defense-of-islam/
From the Feb. 19th Wall Street Journal, an editorial: “Al Qaeda, Islamic State, Boko Haram and other jihadist groups are waging more than a military conflict. They are also waging an increasing successful ideological war for the soul of Islam and its 1.6 billion followers.” “Their version of jihad is gaining adherents precisely because it is motivated by an idea that challenges the values and beliefs of moderate Islam,the West, and modernity.” People are religious by nature, created nature that is. The West and modernity seek to downplay this part of our nature, and make the world secular. And many… Read more »
I don’t disagree and if this had been the original thrust here, there wouldn’t have been much to discuss. Instead, there were references to “true Islam” which casually indicted the whole.
True William. Search for “true Islam” is juicy stuff. Most Muslims come to Australia for a better life, some fleeing persecution. But they don’t drop the reasons which cause the emigration in the first place – Islam. These (mostly) were “moderate”. Their children are rarely impressed though with the duplicity inherent. They tend not to stay like their parents. Some drop right out, even if not within the parents sight. Some become “western Muslims”. Some dig deeper into Islam. Some become radicalized. It’s got nothing to do with ‘getting a job’! Did Obama really say that? They are all individuals,… Read more »
Thanks for the examples, Chris. They are good to see, aren’t they?. I just wish they were somewhat proportionate. We could go down the list from Charlie Hebdo to the Danish cartoons, to bombings, etc, etc and we would not begin to see much of a proportionate style responses as you have listed. They seem to be the exception which is why they are mentioned. I am glad they are! Some of the 9/11 hijackers had moderate/cultural Muslim parents who were appalled. they thought they were sending them West to study. Young Muslims today are very versed with social media.… Read more »
Lydia,
Thank you for your common sense consistency on this matter. I have a feeling that a hundred years from now Americans ( if there is such a designation) will wonder why our generation was so accommodating to Islamic expansionism, particularly in view of the history that was available to us.
wilbur
” … wonder why our generation was so accommodating to Islamic expansionism …”
World War II should have taught us not to be complacent about such things … the Holocaust is a grim reminder of American apathy. Another genocide is taking place while the Super Power debates its options.
Thanks Wilbur. It is astounding how many people think Islam really is a religion of peace. They separate what Islam’s holy Scriptures teach from the benign Muslims that they meet/know. There really is an education problem concerning Islam. But what is worse is that we cannot become educated for discussion about it without being politically incorrect ….which is nothing but a control tactic.
Another scary factoid is that our president was referring to them as ISIL. Bad form! The Levant includes Israel.
Using ISIL instead of ISIS essentially says “I know who you are. I know what lands you plan to take.” Is it any wonder that POTUS and Netanyahu don’t get along?!
Lydia, I also appreciate your common sense. Too bad there’s not more of that floating around these days in and out of church. We’ve become so open-minded in this country, our brains have fallen out!
The U.S. Marines became “Leathernecks” because of Muslims.
Scott, What is the back story on that?
Lydia: check out Barbary Pirates and utilization by marines of leather collars as armour against the swords of their enemies.
ISIL is a chronic Freudian slip with POTUS.
“check out Barbary Pirates and utilization by marines of leather collars as armour against the swords of their enemies.” Oh, that makes sense. Thanks. “ISIL is a chronic Freudian slip with POTUS.” Oh, I think Obama knows exactly what he is doing as do his advisors…which is basically insulting Israel with plausible deniability of the most cowardly kind. What really got to me was the news media picking up on it and using it, too, including some Fox people. Don’t they know better? Bebe can handle it… although he should not have to as the only democracy in the ME,… Read more »
For those not tracking this exchange, ISIL stands for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. The Levant is a targeted multi-nation caliphate region creating a land bridge between Turkey and Egypt. What makes up the near exact center of the Muslim Levant? Israel!
Franklin Graham – wow.
http://www.breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art.html?ID=15488#
Yes, pray for Franklin Graham.
Interesting read and poll results –
http://news.investors.com/politics/021215-739192-muslim-surveys-refute-obama-moderate-claim.htm?utm_content=bufferbed20&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Bill Mac wrote:
Muslims are not a race.
Perhaps. Perhaps not.
Muslims are a people across many cultures and ethnic backgrounds. They are not a race any more than Christians are a race, which is to say that they are not a race.
Read the Wikipedia article.
Greg, Being a Muslim means you are a member of a certain religion. Just like being a Christian means you are part of a certain religion. But don’t confuse a common ideology with race. From the article: “The word Ummah refers to “the people” in Arabic, more specifically to Muslim people with a common ideology and culture. “Ummah” is also said in the Quran by Allah referring to Muslims. It is more commonly used in Islamic countries. Muslim Ummah absolutely refers to the unity of Muslims all over the world. It is a communal word which divides people into two… Read more »
Mike said:
“Actually there is but ONE race with different colors of skin. There is no Muslim race. There is no white race. There is no black race. There is the human race. But sometimes the word race is used to denote skin color and/or ancestry. Muslims are of many skin colors and various ancestries.”
And he’s right.
Check this one out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Islam I am very confused about referring to Muslims as a “race” even if we use it in a wrong context that there are actually differnt races, which there are not. There are ethnicities. I have some family who are missionaries in the very Islamic Indonesia. How would those Muslims fit into the “race” category for Islam? As Asians? There is some confusion here for Pakistani and Indian Muslims are thought of as “Asian? by Europeans. And, one of the growing segments of Islam are Westernized white young men. Westernized white women have been marrying Muslims… Read more »
Dead right, if you dislike Muslims, your racist. If you dislike Christians – well, they should be racist too. If one is consistent. Semantics. Little more than a power play. What is the real agenda of someone who calls someone a racist when they are talking about religion? Inner urban, leftist, elitist, ideology. Obama swims in it. It’s standard school curriculum in Australia.
When I went to school in 1965, race was not a dirty word. But since the left wants one big homogeneous, border-less world, the distinctions between ethnic heredity, have had to be removed. “Race” is now much broader. If you make distinctions, your labelled a hater. Unbelievers also want one all inclusive religion. No difference between sexes, either. (or your a hater, phobic, sexist) Of course, Christ says to come out from among them. We are not popular, but Christianity was never meant to be a popularity contest. They still hate Israel! “Civil” unbelievers (education, media, arts), vilify Christians and… Read more »
Guess God should apologize for creating such a diversity of humanity, huh?
God never makes mistakes. Man does.Men should apologize.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/what-muslims-really-want-isis-atlantic/386156/ The following is from a World Watch Monitor Facebook status linking to the article in The Atlantic referenced above: Is ISIS real Islam? The debate continues. Author Graeme Wood comes under attack for his recent article in The Atlantic, which argued that ISIS is “more than a collection of psychopaths,” but a group with a clear set of [Islamic] beliefs. In a new article in The Atlantic, Caner K. Dagli takes issue with Wood’s implication that Muslims who reject ISIS as un-Islamic are being “hypocritical or naive,” and that ISIS follow the texts of Islam as faithfully and seriously… Read more »