My wife and I have had a unique opportunity lately, taking classes in order to become foster parents. In the classes, we have seen and heard the modern secular humanist ideas of what “discipline” is. This is the model used by the public school system. It’s a mockery that they call it discipline, because it’s anything but. The basic premise comes from your friend Abraham Maslow, who made a hierarchy of needs. His basic premise, however, is totally flawed. It begins with humans who are “good” and if they have their needs met, they will achieve more and be better. This this flawed foundation, we approach destructive and evil behavior as being simply a break in the hierarchy, and the person needs to be helped to learn to trust and be safe and secure, ultimately building self-esteem to the individual can move upwards.
Now I believe that it’s important for people to learn to trust, and many have broken trust. I believe that it’s important for people to feel safe, and I think encouragement and support is important. I work with people on all those things, but here is the fundamental difference. I don’t think people are good. The Bible teaches EXACTLY the opposite, that all have fallen short, none are righteous. If you take a sinful person and increase his self-esteem, he is a sinful person with a healthy self-esteem who still does evil.
The problem comes when this philosophy begins to seep into the church. Now I am a firm believer that discipline should be handled by parents, not teachers. When a student becomes unruly, the best option is to have the parent intervene. That is not always practical. Sometimes it’s good to just redirect or often even ignore, but we cannot reinforce negative behavior with rewards. We must also be careful that we don’t punish those who are behaving well with consequences of those who are acting out. Children learn though conditioning. It’s basic, a kid touches something hot, gets burned and learns an important lesson. In church, kids come to Sunday School and sometimes get burned. If a kid is acting up and is removed from the class, looses a privilege or has a negative consequence, that’s important. We cannot reinforce negative behavior, yet so often we punish the entire class. This teaches the children that justice is ignorant and your behavior doesn’t matter. If you are good, but everyone else is acting out, you still get punished. Children learn through conditioning.
In your church, in your classroom, in your ministry, remember simple rules. Seek Justice, Love Mercy and walk Humbly with God. If we seek to make things just with a spirit of mercy, we will correct behaviors for the benefit of the student. We want the behavior to improve so they learn and do not repeat the same behavior in a context with someone who does not seek justice and love mercy. Our discipline should be for the benefit of the child. I am not sure the school districts and secular humanists quite understand that concept. What do you think?
Agreed. Wish we could do a detailed study like the so called humanist claim they did to come up with their child rearing philosophy. I’m sure their results were more favorable than the principles of God’s word. (eye roll)
I commend you for your desire to be a foster parent. It has to be a God-call because some of us would have a difficult time creating a relationship and having to say good-by.
Good post.
The foster situation we are looking at will probably be more permanent. In the future may be more traditional foster.
I have been researching something about your topic through the works of James Dobson and the writings of Michael and Debbi Pearl. I had no idea how popular this kind of discipline was among Southern Baptists until I read some posts by blogger Denny Burk. I’ve also spoken with my brother, a pediatrician, concerning his opinion of corporal punishment, particularly the spanking of babies and very small little ones, who disagrees with that practice. For someone brought up without that kind of discipline, it’s been an education to learn about all of this. I expect the people that discipline their… Read more »
While you are writing to advance the notion that humanists give us motivation theory (and they do give us some insight into human behavior), such as need theory, for example, Maslow and Alderfer (note that the latter conceptualization, although flawed, enjoys more empirical support than the former), need theory is also embraced by one that posits a religious view of man (i.e., Herzberg). Interestingly, the theory advocated in the post, operant conditioning, was developed by a humanist, Skinner. It is not that operant conditioning does not work, it may, but in the end the one that takes responsibility for behavior… Read more »
Dan Barnes,
There will be days and some long nights when you may question your decision to become a foster parent. You will not win every battle. Yet, the ones you do win will humble you before Jesus and you shall praise Him for using you in this ministry even as you cry over the ones you “feel” you have lost.
God bless you my brother. I hope to meet you some day.
“We cannot reinforce negative behavior, yet so often we punish the entire class. This teaches the children that justice is ignorant and your behavior doesn’t matter. If you are good, but everyone else is acting out, you still get punished. Children learn through conditioning.” So very true! This kills the concept of justice but is used all the time to “manage” large groups of children (even used with employees). It usually happens by taking freedoms away from the group because of the behavior of one person. As to Maslow….I can remember reading the stories of adults who grew up in… Read more »
I worked with a group home for troubled kids when I was in college… I have a thought on the following comment, ““We cannot reinforce negative behavior, yet so often we punish the entire class. This teaches the children that justice is ignorant and your behavior doesn’t matter.” I used this quite often with the idea, peer pressure works better than paddle pressure. It worked too. When a new kid come into the home, a group of the kids got with the new comer and told them… these guys are fair and they care about us… don’t mess things up… Read more »
“Keep your heart with all diligence, For out of it [spring] the issues of life.” Proverbs 4:23 The problem with the humanistic approach to discipline is that it tries to “condition” what springs out of the heart which is “human behavior”. Humanist focus on “symptoms” (behavior) and know nothing about the heart. “Foolishness [is] bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him.” Proverbs 22:15. The heart is the issue in discipline. We are not animals with instinct, we are humans who have a heart that is pliable. Scientist want to… Read more »
” This is the model used by the Public School System ” . Oh, really . Everywhere in the USA and invented by a Jew that died about 50 years ago . Amazing ! Good Luck in parenting .
Maslow’s hierarchy of needs is not a ‘discipline’ system, no. And, for the years I taught in public school, discipline was to firmly put in place a set of boundaries as to what was accepted behavior AS A SCHOOL, and then for teams of teachers to work on any needed additions to expectations at a certain grade level AS A TEAM, and then for teachers to ‘teach’ the rules to the children so that they understood what was expected of them. Providing ‘boundaries’ for behavior is a part of providing security to children . . . they actually do want… Read more »
Christiane: “…children . . . want and need boundaries and limits that are reasonable and responsible in order to feel secure at school.” bapticus hereticus: Yes, and as an educator you are surely in a position to see this on a day-to-day basis. And you are correct that Maslow’s theory is not a disciplinary theory, rather it is one that posits a rationale for what may enact certain behaviors. Given his theory, the absence of safety would impede a student’s ability to learn and adapt, at least in a manner that is often expected in formal environments, thus it would… Read more »
Christiane, I’m sure discipline policies differ from school system to school system. My children have either been homeschooled or lately attended a small private school. I know things have changed much since I was a student in the public schools, so I’m going to speculate and ask you to correct or enhance my comments if you would. It seems to me that discipline policies in public schools (and to some degree in private schools) are informed more by the threat of legal action than by a genuine concern for the students. Teachers may individually care for the students, but policies… Read more »
Jim, and others, The problem with discussing discipline in regard to the public schools is that the Bible never sanctions the surrendering of the parents’ responsibility to educate their own children. Therefore, it will be impossible to conclusively evaluate the discipline (or lack thereof) in regard to government forced education. It is a well known fact that chaining up a dog increases aggression. Putting children in a totally arbitrary environment isolated from normal patterns of behavior will exaserbate discipline problems, regardless of, or in cases because of, discipline problems at home. We experience this same problem in our private, Christian… Read more »
JIM, could you give an example (for instance, a specific case where the ‘values’ of parents might conflict with the ‘popular culture’)? Or any example you think you would want to exchange ideas about? Thanks.
Sorry, Christiane, no particular examples. Just piecing together an understanding of the complexities of bureaucratic policy-making with regard to discipline in schools in general and hoping for a view from under the belly of the beast to refine my thinking.
“Now I believe that it’s important for people to learn to trust, and many have broken trust. I believe that it’s important for people to feel safe, and I think encouragement and support is important. I work with people on all those things, but here is the fundamental difference. I don’t think people are good. The Bible teaches EXACTLY the opposite, that all have fallen short, none are righteous. If you take a sinful person and increase his self-esteem, he is a sinful person with a healthy self-esteem who still does evil.” Right. This is the problem I have with… Read more »
Leigh, Children are around their mother most of the time during their formidable years (0-7 years old). Whoever you are all the time is the pattern that is etched in their minds. I struggle with reading a how-to book and trying to apply something that is not part of my makeup. The child sees this new response or activity as a “blip” in their newly forming paradigm. Usually, if it is not part of your natural pattern of living it will die off and not continue to be part of yours or the child’s behavior. I have learned that we… Read more »
Bruce H. – ” More is Caught Than Just Taught ” . I like that. Basically that is what an apprentice co-pilot , carpenter or bricklayer does . Maybe even a new intern at a hospital who needs monitoring .
Jack Wolford,
That is the essence of the pastors roll for the church. As we witness and new believers come into the body of Christ, being “babes in Christ”, we disciple them in God’s truth and they see other examples around the church, but mainly the leadership. The greater the example the stronger, confident and more mature the body will be.
“nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being EXAMPLES to the flock;” 1 Peter 5:3
Referring back to bapticus hereticus’s comments: 1. If you interpret Maslow’s “needs theory” from a very simple perspective, I think it’s a helpful construct. That simple perspective is this: “a person will get stuck in personal growth if they experience fear over basic needs not being consistently provided.” Now when we say basic needs in that sentence, that COULD include a broad range of things including peer acceptance and love and guidance of parents. But the key insight is THAT a person will put their shields up–their coping mechanisms–if they feel that a need they are used to having fulfilled… Read more »
Dan, this is good analysis of the problem I think. Starting with the wrong presupposition–man is basically good–will not end in a good place. Man, as we know, is “deceitfully wicked” inheriting the sinful nature of Adam. However, there is a glitch in this presupposition also. A few months back Dr. Steve Lemke (sp) dealt with it. That glitch is what we commonly refer to as the age of accountability. We must make sure that our discipline, based upon the understanding of original sin, is age appropriate. I was shocked, and somewhat saddened, to see a prominent SBC Voices poster… Read more »
People who spank infants should be in jail.
Let me qualify my statement:
People who spank infants should be in jail or in a mental hospital.
Any time you decide to base your discipline on anything other than the personality of the child and the situation, you are setting yourself up to do something inappropriate. A child has to know that when you say, “Stop,” that there is no negotiation. The child must stop immediately. The reason for this is that the child may be heading toward a serious danger. What ever you need to do to get this across is likely to be appropriate. If you say, “Stop,” and the child looks at you and goes ahead–well, a swat may be in order. There must… Read more »
“hear” not “her” on the news. Need to read these for spelling as well as emotion before submitting them. 🙂
[submitted after reading Dave’s post on comments]
For our daughters, sometimes they just pushed me further than I wanted to be pushed. When they did this, they had to go to their room and count to some number–it increased as they got faster at it. This gave us both time (and a distraction) from what ever they were doing that was causing the problem. You need to have a quick way to deal with temporarily stressful situations that gives all a chance to “cool off.” I think if I had had son(s) that he would have to do push ups. It does the same thing and there… Read more »
*Now I am a firm believer that discipline should be handled by parents, not teachers. When a student becomes unruly, the best option is to have the parent intervene.* *I don’t think people are good. The Bible teaches EXACTLY the opposite, that all have fallen short, none are righteous.* This does not sound like you have been parents before. Based on my experiences, it is a serious error to ever communicate to your child that other adults do not have the responsibility to correct them. You can’t be everywhere. You need to make it completely clear that your children (real… Read more »
Bennett, I was in school from 1960-73 and I recall that we had to bring home a paddling permission slip for our parent’s signature. Our parents would read it, sign it and we would return it to the teacher for the office files. The school would know what to do from that point. My parents gave the school permission to spank me and requested to be informed afterward so they could deal with me when I got home. I was made aware of that and warned ahead of time. I never had a discipline problem at school. Times were different… Read more »
Dan, I think you’re spot on. That said, my wife seems to be a natural with discipline and I just watch her with the kids in awe. But really, I watch my kids in awe of the amazing things God is doing in them. I hear people talk about how difficult teens are and I have yet to see it in mine. My oldest son is staunchly against breaking the speed limit. My daughter is 13 and I have yet to see this hateful rolling her eyes attitude that people tell me about. Just today they sang a duet together… Read more »
You may make it through the teen years with no issues, but if you do, you will be a rare bird. 🙂 Based on my personal experience (as a long ago teen) and my children, I think that you can tell them things until they are about 9-10. You can talk about things (that was a bad deal, that did not turn out well, this happened as a result of …) until they are 12-13. At that point, you cross your fingers and off they go. After that point, you mostly explain what the choices are and what the results… Read more »