(This post originally appeared at my blog: Borrowed Light)
…those who more boldly than others incite defection from the church, and are like standard-bearers, have for the most part no other reason than their contempt of all to show they are better than the others. (John Calvin, Institutes, 1030)
Ripping on the church has become a national past-time. It is not uncommon for people to get so fed up with the brokenness of the church that they decide their relationship with Jesus could be just as easily cultivated at home.
There is also the other type of person that hops from church gathering to church gathering but never firmly plants within a body. There is nothing wrong with trying to find a church home. But there is something wrong with NEVER planting. And I question someone that is just “following where the Spirit leads” but never commits himself/herself to a local manifestation of the body that Christ died for.
I understand there is more to this than the simple John Calvin quote. I understand there is much debate about what constitutes a “church” and that many are moving away from an institutional variety and embracing a more organic house church model.
I simply want to make one point. Make certain that you aren’t “defecting” out of pride and a sense of having it all together. Do you love the church? If your heart is not beating for the church of God then I doubt it truly longs for Jesus. You can’t love Jesus and dis’ his wife.
Very good thoughts, Mike.
I wonder how often that pride issue is at the root of pastoral church defection as well. I know this, it is when my pride is injured that I most want to warm up my resume.
so, most Octobers, your church has to be on edge if the Yankees lose?
I’m a Royals fan, so the concept of “pride” and baseball is never an issue.
I’m probably going to be in KC in August when the Yankees come to town to catch a couple of games.
It’s about the cheapest way to see them (or any other AL team). I’d offer to go with you but I’m not sure if I’ll be around here or not as I’m hunting pretty agressively for a pastor job right now and there hasn’t been a lot open here in the KC area.
Ever thought about looking in the Dakotas? There are several churches looking for pastors up this way.
Is that when and where we should have the SBCVoices gathering?
Get a group rate to a KC game?
I’m also a KC fan…and I’m proud of our 3-1 start!!!
We had a group that broke off from the church I was working at because they disagreed with how the pastor was transitioning the church into reaching a larger congregation because it had exploded from 250 to over 800 in a couple of years. The group initially tried to convince a pastor at another area church to let them join en masse provided that they could set up their own Sunday School classes for their own families. The pastor wisely turned them down, though I’m pretty sure he tried hard to not laugh in their faces. The group then decided… Read more »
well said. I guess if pride could cause a defection from the heavenly assembly, our imperfect churches might be vulnerable to it as well.
“…those who more boldly than others incite defection from the church, and are like standard-bearers, have for the most part no other reason than their contempt of all to show they are better than the others. (John Calvin, Institutes, 1030)”
Uh…church was mandatory in Calvin’s Geneva. Those who “defected” were risking their jobs and some even their lives if they disagreed publicly.
Lydia,
In the context Calvin is actually speaking against the Anabaptists, and their desire to flee from the organized Church because it was impure.
So, this isn’t speaking of Calvin’s Geneva.
“In the context Calvin is actually speaking against the Anabaptists, and their desire to flee from the organized Church because it was impure.”
I understood that. What I don’t understand is if you agree with Calvin on that score.
The Anabaptists had a problem with mandatory state church padeobaptism, sacraments as a means of Grace, etc.
Are you suggesting that some AnaBaptists (not all, as they were certainly not monolithic) were wrong to think such things impure in the Bride of Christ? Are you suggesting that their fleeing from the state church was because of “pride”?
I’m not going to broad brush…but I will say Calvin was right in part that many Anabaptists were given to fanaticism. There was much more to the movement than just a rejection of infant baptism.
What I do think is often in our desire to be or join a “pure” church there is a real danger of pride. Yes the church is impure but so will be any that we join or plant. That is all that I am saying.
Sounds to me the issue of pride can also be a problem with those who think they are in “authority” and expect to be obeyed whether it is Calvin or today. I do not think it is fanatical to oppose mandatory infant baptism or sacraments as a means of Grace. Or even to oppose a “state church”. They were not all “Munster” Anabaptists as much as most Calvinists would like to make us think. In fact, many AnaBaptists spoke out against Munster. I am wondering to what extent we are willing to go along with “impure”. No one expects sinless… Read more »
Lydia, those to whom God gives authority over others do have to be careful to exercise that authority in a godly manner.
Uh-oh.
Lydia,
Why is it prideful for our leaders to expect our lawful obedience? Further, do we have a right to create schism in a true church of God, rather than attempting reform?
Lydia,
I won’t deny that Calvin was guilty of lumping most Anabaptists together. It’s kind of funny that he married one. Well…former one.
Obviously, pride is something that those in authority and those under authority must always battle.
The question that you ask, and that Chase us asking below is one that has been asked by many different people with many different theologies in many different periods of history….so obviously there isn’t an easy or formulaic answer.
The important message of this article is not to leave the church. Belong to a church. We were never meant to be Lone Ranger Christians. We are to be a part of a local body.
Yep. You got it! That’s ALL I’m attempting to say here…
Mike:
Great quote and issue behind the quote.
Many people do not love the church today. They spend all their time bashing the church, and very little time expressing true love for the church.
Thanks for the post.
I have left two churches for reasons other than moving away. One was Ed Young Jr’s church and I don’t think that needs explanation. The second was due to what I perceived to be serious mishandling of a pedophile situation. Neither of these two churches had any intention of changing their modus operandi. One of the best ways to shake up a church is to leave and decrease numbers and take your contributions with you. As numbers and money decline, churches suddenly get concerned. Its too bad that this is the only way to get churches to listen to the… Read more »
As to Calvin and the Anabaptists, he was quite hard on them and there were some who deserved censure. But no one deserves to lose his or her life for not kowtowing to the powers tht be, and Zwingli, for example, was quite blatant on the mattter. Submission to those who have authority is required no farther or further than the leaders themselves sbmit to the word of God. Resistance to tyranny as some have said is obedience to God. After all, you follow a Hitler and you will get the results that go with it. Look at Southern Baptists… Read more »
Lydia, Chase, “Leaders” in the Body are those who are spiritually mature. That would be defined as humble servants. None of this precludes one from expecting that they be treated as their office requires. That LAST thing they would expect is obedience to “them”. And obedience to a person is not the same thing as obedience to Christ. No matter what the title or type of stage you stand on. In fact, Jesus Christ is the boss of the Body. Not humans. Jesus said, “Not so among you”. Elders, pastors, evangelists, etc, are “among” us. Not “over” us. I fear… Read more »
Chase, I know you are enamoured with having rule but I would suggest you check the Greek instead of biased translations. In fact, the word is proistemi which is better translated as to “stand before, preside, or to practise.” I do not see exousia or archon used there to denote “ruler” or power over others. Jesus said we are not to be like the Gentiles. In effect, to believe that translation means that would be to say that all the “one anothers”, not lording it over, put others before yourself, etc, does not apply to those with spiritual titles. Because… Read more »
One more thing…. according to these “ruler” translations of the text, the Puritans, Hugueots and many others were in sin for NOT obeying their rulers in the ‘church’.
Hmmmmmm…maybe that is why the translators chose that particular translation of the word proistemi. (wink)
Lydia, I do not wish to continue further. You continually misrepresent my argument and it seems that you are not interested in understanding it: In what way do I refer to elders as dictators? When have I ever stated that we should obey our leaders when they lead us in unlawful ways? In what way does being spiritually mature preclude someone from having a measure of authority over others? What bearing does the Jew/Gentile dichotomy have when Israel had human authorities? Why do the rulers of churches need to be mentioned in the NT epistles and how does their absence… Read more »
Peter exhorted the elders to lead by example. Thus, the idea of rule in the church is balanced by the fact that all members are children of God and that members of a family are equals. Every member of the church has a vote and the right to exercise. The body has th right to call the elders to account. Recently, a deacon did that in an elder led church. He got to the point precisely on the issue that the elders were apparently making decisions without consulting others or even considering what church members who were not elders and/or… Read more »