The pace of change on the gay marriage issue has been breakneck, ever since President Obama changed his position and came out in favor of so-called “marriage equality.”
I don’t have the time or the understanding of Supreme Court rulings to do a thorough analysis, but I thought that some might have the desire to address the issue (respectfully, please – even of an administration we disagree with).
As I understand it, DOMA is basically gutted. It has been declared that marriage is a fundamental right and that it would be discriminatory (under the equal protection concept) to deny that right to homosexuals.
Prop 8 from California was rejected on the grounds that the citizens had no standing to appeal the lower court order. Since the state government of California has made it clear they have no intent to defend the amendment passed by the citizenry, Prop 8 is dead and gay marriage will resume in California.
Suddenly, we are in Oz. We are now the minority. Instead of opposing gay marriage, we are in the position of defending our right not to practice it. It is a new world. The Moral Majority is dead. We are clearly the minority now (55-44 in the poll I saw this morning) and that will probably only get worse.
Fortunately, Jesus still lives, the gospel still saves, and the Spirit still transforms. So, the church is not destroyed even as the moral foundations of our culture crumble.
I’m off to lunch. Behave yourselves.
For a great read, you must review Justice Scalia’s dissent. He holds nothing back.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/domesticpolicy/scalia-high-handed-kennedy-has-declared-us-enemies-of-the-human-race-20130626
Scalia says Kennedy calls us “enemies of the human race.” Hard words, Are they the portent of terrible times to come? When will get down to really praying in earnest?
Here’s my understanding after going through the news of what this impacts: 1. Prop 8 was overturned on technicality – CA declined to actually defend it, therefore those who tried to defend it did not have grounds. This ruling ONLY impacts California. 2. DOMA as a federal law defining marriage was overturned. Marriage is now defined as each state chooses to define it. I live in Maryland, so that meaning is no longer Biblical. That said, if you live in Nebraska, it still is. Federally they now will recognize whatever each state recognizes as a marriage. It does not overturn… Read more »
Thanks Matt. Although it may eventually lead to a national recognition of homosexual “marriage,” the decision on DOMA basically means that the Federal Government cannot deny what an individual state declares a reality. This will only get worse as the fallout spreads.
Or it may get better. In a way. At least politically.
The Court in both rulings today seemed to defend states rights and, again seemed, to place this issue in the hands of each state and take it away from the Federal Govt.
Being a bit of a political junkie and a staunch federalist….I can see some potential silver lining in this dark cloud.
Don’t worry Tar Heel, they will keep Federalism until they switch to dictatorship and tyranny with the use of military might to enforce the extermination decrees. Remember the Guidestones in Georgia and the reduction of the earth’s population to a few billion or less. Should have read Wells’ The Open Conspiracy.
Yeah. You’d think we were living in the days of the pagan Roman Empire and they were about to by edict put Christians to death by feeding them to the lions in a Colosseum built with the loot of the sacking of Jerusalem and the dismantlement of the Temple. Let me offer an alternative view that could be helpful and hopeful: The adoption of the civil liberties argument for preventing discrimination against homosexuals is an extension of some of the success of the Gospel in our society. When we no longer are visibly discriminating against them, they will still not… Read more »
But in the interim, the folks who are using this little ploy have some interesting extermination techniques in mind for their biggest obstacle to world control, the true believers who only want the control of Christ.
@Matt Svoboda: Unfortunately Matt it is not that simple. Remember the Scopes monkey trials? William Jennings Bryan and our side WON that trial. But the way that the media covered the trial, the verdict and has depicted ever since i.e. the “Inherit The Wind” movie turned the legal victory on that case into a loss in the eyes of the public, making opposition to evolution within mainstream institutions pretty much impossible ever since. So even though we won the most important part of this case – where each state is not required to acknowledge the marriage licenses of other states… Read more »
‘libertarian’ IS a Republican thing, you know . . . and it is 180 degrees different from social conservatism, in the sense that it doesn’t want government ‘involved’ in areas that restrict personal behaviors . . . but ‘libertarian’ could never be a Democratic thing, simply because Democrats don’t want people to have certain ‘freedoms’ that impinge on the lives of others in ways deemed hurtful to their human dignity as now protected by law I still can’t sort out if the ‘tea party’ thing is more ‘socially conservative’ or more ‘libertarian’ . . . or a very strained marriage… Read more »
It is time to live as Daniel lived and to get our people out of our club type churches and engaged in loving ministry and service with a people that need to see and hear of the real Jesus!
This is the break point that a small group in Germany decided on as the issue to corrupt, ruin, and divide America and remove it from the venue of Christianity and bring about the socialistic state, religion, and extermination of the majority of the population (about 4-6 billion people). Too bad so few people do research on the Cabal, the conspiracy that has run the world for about 300 years. One of them has even bragged about it in his autobiography. Guess who fits that work? Worse is yet to come. Jesse Ventura’s review of the FEMA camps, the coffins,… Read more »
I’m with Scalia but let’s not pronounce the benediction for our country just yet. Southern Baptists have hitched their wagon for about a generation and a half to various vehicles which sought to express our political power. Seems we don’t have a lot of that. Might be a good time to focus on something with power beyond that of our civil government. Gay marriage will not, has not destroyed the moral underpinnings of our culture, that happened long ago when we first started accepting serial marriages…but I digress. If you don’t approve of gay marriage (I don’t) don’t marry and… Read more »
Good word William. The sun will rise. And with it, the mission of Jesus will be as much in front of us then as it is today, and as it was yesterday.
These are scary, and exciting days!
Good for you, William. About the most positive I can be about that is that I expect it to rise tomorrow. But I have a high standard regarding predictions. [emoticon not used out of respect for the moderator]
Yep, it rises to morrow even as it did in Germany, when Adolf came to power. My grandfather’s brother knew of this cabal way back around 1898 or there abouts. He could name names etc. A friend of mine said he didn’t believe such stuff, and I answered, “Well, we have a mutual friend who had a man in his church who was head of the American Constitutional Party. His family booted him out, when he failed to go along with the conspiracy. He told our friend a great deal and still our friend did not believe it. Thus, it… Read more »
William, You know, I agree somewhat with you on your analysis. Certainly the sun will rise tomorrow (unless the rapture takes place and I believe that is a moment in time that I affectionately refer to as “pre”) but we certainly do not want to pass this off as just another Supreme Court ruling. Wouldn’t you agree that was the reaction among many for the “Roe v. Wade” court ruling? Look at the millions of lives that have been lost since that time because many pastors at that time said; “the sun is going to rise tomorrow”. I am not… Read more »
Tim Rogers,
I agree. Russ Moore’s article was a good article. It made me proud that he represents Southern Baptist in the halls of government.
He may very well be the right man for an hour such as this in our postmodern, post-Christian, American culture.
Tim, I don’t believe that the state, any state of any era, has power to strike at the heart of the Gospel.
The sun has indeed risen, several times, since the SCOTUS decisions. Other than being sufficiently indignant about them, what do you suggest?
William,
God does judge nations….and, if you don’t believe that God judges nation in our NT age….then, you still must believe that sin ruins and destroys a nation.
David
Said nothing about that David.
God has has sufficient reason to judge our nation since its founding.
From the time this administration stated that America was not a Christian nation it has been a moral freefall and stopping it isn’t possible politically. They will continue to redefine biblical morality until we are considered to be a terrorist group (Uh oh, IRS just picked up on this blog.)
I meant NSA in lieu of IRS.
Don’t worry both the IRS and the NSA have your number. A friend of mine had a call from an IRS agent who said she wanted to examine things. So they came in and looked at all financial records and read the minutes closely, looking it seems for something to the folks of that church under a real strain. Alas! and Hooray! There was nothing of any consequence. Jefferson’s Wall of Separation was meant to keep the government out of the church. LBJ got the IRS involved, because he was made at some preachers in Texas who had opposed him.… Read more »
Amen.
Hopefully, this will pressure the church to do what the church did in Acts 2:1 “When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.” When we are in one place with a single mind, the Holy Spirit will fall upon us again. The world will be the same, but there will be change.
I recommend that SCOTUS forever ban any use of the Kansas/Toto phrase on the basis of gross overuse.
(Nothing personal towards anyone in Iowa, of course.)
I changed it for you. I’ve got a whole book of cliches, dude.
I could go with “Shock and Awe.”
I could go with “This Ain’t Your Mother’s America.”
I could go with …I got as many cliches as you have time!
What’s wrong with Kansas and Toto? “Dust in the Wind” and “Africa” were two pretty good songs, I thought.
Well Bart Barber,
Since you put it like that. Where Have All The Flowers Gone?
I liked “Carry on My Wayward Son” and “Point of No Return,” as well. Kansas was a great Rock group…when they had Kerry Livgreen.
Toto wasnt one of my favorites….although “Rosanna” was pretty good….and, “Africa” was pretty good, too.
Of course, all Kansans and Iowans wished that Lynyrd Skynyrd would’ve been from up their way….
David
‘Rains Down In Africa’ . . . great lyrics:
‘. . . the moonlit wings reflect the stars
that guide me towards salvation . . . ‘
methinks ‘Toto’ was a bit familiar with the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas on the natural proofs for the existence of God 🙂
Where have all the flower children gone? Some of you are still around. 🙂
Bart,
I was talking with a barber, and he said the flower children almost put him out of business back in the 60’s.
It has been declared that marriage is a fundamental right and that it would be discriminatory (under the equal protection concept) to deny that right to homosexuals. Make no mistake, brothers, our Courts and our Culture are attempting to redefine marriage–and that is beyond their jurisdiction. From the dawn of time, the Divinely appointed institution of marriage has consisted of the union between one man and one woman. Homosexuals are in no way denied the “right” to marry–they may marry a member of the opposite sex in any state in our Union. Our SBC churches are poorly equipped to deal… Read more »
When you have been brainwashed to set back and let things go on under the mistaken notion that you really can’t do anything, then the enemy has won. Brainwashing, psy ops, is very much a part of war. Just think. Our Supreme Court in 1892 and in 1790 something ruled that the US was a Christian Nation, not because it had a state church, but because it was founded on Christian law, etc. Even old Deist Ben Franklin conceded the importance of prayer in the Constitutional Convention.
On another point, this goes back to the failed strategy of the early part of the religious right/social conservative movement. At that time, there actually was a broad moral majority on social issues. The goal should have been to exploit that by creating a broad coalition to fight the most important battles: abortion, gay marriage, pornography and no-fault divorce. That way it would have been possible to elect socially conservative Democrats and Republicans to Congress and to state houses to enact actual legislation and put real judges on the bench. Instead, they did the opposite. Rather than trying to build… Read more »
“defending our right not to practice it”
This is quite a strange statement. No one has forced a Christian into a gay marriage. It is Christians who have denied gays the right to marry because they do not agree with it.
If you are saying you’re being forced to live in a country where gay marriage is allowed, that is also not true. You are free to move to any number of countries where they treat LGBTQ people more harshly for religious reasons.
Byron, You are placing the sin of homosexuality on the level similar to racism. We do not deny gays because “we do not agree”, we deny the right to marriage between the same sex because it is a sin against the holiness of God. For a nation as a whole to accept that before God is suicide for that nation. We can only respond because we know that God must not be mocked when He has declared that homosexual activities are an abomination to a nation. You must not define what you think we are thinking. We are not saying… Read more »
it sounds to me as if the belief of the Christian conservative right has been tied irrevocably to the Will of God, and if the USA departs from the will of the Christian far right, then ‘God will pull the plug’ is the threat as seen by fundamentalist Christian people but our country is not ‘Christian fundamentalist’ and never was . . . so I don’t understand how the ‘contract’ was formed between God and the Christian far right to destroy America if America doesn’t placate the far right agenda ? when did this happen? or are there actually Scriptures… Read more »
Christiane, I am assuming that you are talking to me. Christian fundamentalist and Christian far right are terms you use and associate them with judgmentalism and hypocrisy. When we have scripture that our whole eternal future is based on and we think that God does not remove His hand because of sin, we are misguiding ourselves. Our nation isn’t great because of man, it is great because of God. If this nation has no fear of God, it is going to crumble even though we think we are strong. All God has to do is simply remove His hand and… Read more »
L’s,
You have slipped up a little haven’t you?
You usually post your godless spew on other blogs, leaving SBC Voices to present yourself as the loving soul bubbling over with good will for the children of God and devotion to the Savior.
I guess you forgot to put on your sheep’s clothing when you approached the keyboard this time. Your true nature overcame you and the wolf you are came bursting forth for all the world to see, ya think?
CB,
Boy, did it. Of course, we saw some of it after our kidding around with Dwight the other day, too.
David
Tom Parker,
I am absolutely certain you are right. My “true colors are showing.” But, Tom Parker, I must ask you, when have they not?
Crickets…..
Christiane,
Pro 14:34 Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a shame to any people. (LITV)
It’s not that God has a contract with Christian Fundamentalism it’s that He has a complete faithfulness to Himself and His word. Surely you can’t believe that the open acceptance of sin that God has made His judgment of evident can actually make us better as a nation.
no clarification needed for my comment: the nation isn’t buying the teachings of judgmental and hypocritical people who practice serial marriage and whose divorce rate is on par with non-fundamentalists I think many have said this before me Christian people are sent forth to present Christ to the world . . . that is not what has been going on in some of the politically-wired efforts of the conservative far-right And yes, others have said THAT also so when our country is not buying something that is marketed under the name ‘Christian’ and being sold openly as ‘God’s Will’, remember… Read more »
Christiane, You make much noise about “not as servants of Christ in the way that is commanded in the Holy Gospels of sacred Scripture”. So do you not believe this portion of His Word also? Genesis 19:1-29 New King James Version (NKJV) Sodom’s Depravity 19 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. 2 And he said, “Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant’s house and spend… Read more »
Christiane, I wish I possessed the fine genteel manners of CB and others who have attempted to show you some grace over this outrageous comment. Please forgive me. I seriously don’t feel very charitable regarding this bit of complete nonsense and all out assault upon our values. Now me, if people want to call me a bigot or an enemy of human decency after I dedicated the largest portion of my life to the service of my country, then that is fine. But do not come here pontificating about Christian fundamentalists while your church is in serious disarray and truly… Read more »
Christiane: Chief Katie has your number. These conservative folks make goofs, some really big ones, sometimes, but it was their ancestors and predecessors who were the cannon fodder for the American Revolution. It was their ancestors and predecessors who enlisted the young men of their communities in the Patriots Cause. And I was watching a program on C-Span the other day about the book, Mortal Sins, recounting the awful predatory priests, and there were Catholics speaking out about how bad their churches were. Christiane, just because these Bible believing folks oppose the homosexual agenda about same sex marriages, that does… Read more »
Chief. Did you really use “genteel” and CB in the same post?
Your response to the error above is spot on.
We also “deny” same sex couples marriage…because a union between two men or two women is in fact not a marriage at all by the biblical definition.
it goes much deeper than a “disagreement”.
This would be meaningful if the US were a Christian nation and words like “marriage” and “moral” were defined by the Bible. But it isn’t, and they aren’t.
Byron,
It could be pointed out that marriage has never, at any point in recorded history, been defined as anything other than the union of one man and one woman.
Start re-defining terms and concepts whose meaning is clearly established, and sooner or later society itself unravels.
In this case, sooner.
Grace to you, friend.
“”” if the US were a Christian nation”””
Byron, I have no illusion that America is anything like what the Founders envisioned. But, I would like your atheist opinion on a question:
“What religion is at the basis of all the quotes related to religion in the Founding Documents–and there are thousands?
Is it Islam? Is it Hinduism? What is it?
Byron, America still is a Christian nation. We still reach out to other nations when there is a disaster, that is what Christ would do. We even rebuild a nation we destroy in war to free their people from tyranny, that is what Christ would do. We provide grace to immigrants, we feed the poor and we provide assistance when someone cannot pay their medical bills, that is what Christ would do. The problem is, many who think we are not a Christian nation want to take credit for what Christ taught, He just didn’t get the copyright on what… Read more »
Bruce, I must disagree with you here. America is not a Christian nation. There is no such thing as a “Christian nation”…Christ did mot die for and redeem nations….he died for and redeemed individuals within those nations. Those individuals who will believe are those for whom Christ died, and those who are Christians. We do not have a national salvation…we have personal salivations from every nation, tribe and tongue. Acting morally, or doing good things is not what it means to be a Christian…any more than it is the way to become one. Not to mention that America was not… Read more »
I also have great respect for the Christian philosophy that under-girded so much of the founding of America, and truly think that if we today would heed their guidance we would be better off as a nation…
However, those rich philosophically Christian roots, nor moral actions today for that matter, make us a Christian nation.
* However, neither those rich philosophically Christian-like roots or moral actions performed today make us a “Christian nation”.
Tarheel,
Disagreeing is a privilege under our American and Christian freedoms. America does respond in Christian-like responses toward others and the world. It is Christ-like to respond to situations that Christ would respond. The world likes the response to how Christ responds. Therefore, they want the attention they would get from the principle of how Christ would respond. Theirs is the response of pride and ours would be the response of humility and love. We must understand that. It is all about the principle of the way Christ has responded to the worldly actions.
Tarheel, I understand that America is not living out a Christian heritage. I understand that strictly speaking God has only one chosen nation and that is Israel. But, in common vernacular, which is the world in which we live as Americans, our nation was established as a “Christian nation.” That is, our laws and forms come from a Christian foundation. With the caveats I mention, what kind of nation would you say we were: Islamic, Hindu, New Age, Hare Krisna? We are a nation founded upon Christian principles and intended by our Founders to remain connected to those broad principles… Read more »
Tarheel,
What I was trying to get at and may never have arrived is that when you say, the U.S. is not a Christian nation, and when Byron says it, you are not in my opinion saying the same thing
. . . or hoping the same hope.
You’re right, frank. We’re not saying the same thing, and certainly are not on the same page. 😉
Bruce said; “America does respond in Christian-like responses toward others and the world. It is Christ-like to respond to situations that Christ would respond. The world likes the response to how Christ responds. Therefore, they want the attention they would get from the principle of how Christ would respond. Theirs is the response of pride and ours would be the response of humility and love. We must understand that. It is all about the principle of the way Christ has responded to the worldly actions.” Yes, but we also go to war unjustly and lie, and spy, and governmentally (and… Read more »
Frank said;
“But, in common vernacular, which is the world in which we live as Americans, our nation was established as a “Christian nation.” That is, our laws and forms come from a Christian foundation.”
I agree…that’s what I meant when I said we were founded on Christian like Philosiphy (among other philosophies)
Tarheel, Our disagreement on this issue is merely opinions based upon what we believe or want to believe. I cannot help believe that an atheist, Muslim, Buddhist or any other religion that does not believe in our (Christian) God will look at our (American) paper money and wonder what “IN GOD WE TRUST” really means. With that, America has been overwhelmingly blessed by God since we began. Our history reads much like the life of David and Solomon, sin and all, yet, Christ was from that linage. I just think America can still be called a Christian nation because that… Read more »
I think we tend to Americanize God to the point that we distort who He is.
It’s a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
I apologize if I am coming off offensively. I just think we as the church need to be very careful that we do not distort the gospel by linking it to the American way of life.
Tarheel,
I agree and hear what you are saying. Not offended. I must say though, it is the American way of life that has changed the church already. That may be another subject altogether.
Also, “In God we trust” Question….
Which God is that? The god of Thomas Jefferson? That god is certainly NOT the God of Christianity.
Seriously Tarheel… It’s fine if you want to say you don’t see America as a Christian nation, but please spare us the “What God” comments… I suppose your next question might be, “What bible” in reference to the bible a President places his hand on when being sworn in to office… the President may not believe in the God of the bible he is placing his hand on, but we all know which bible it is referring to..
Tarheel,
Here is the history of “In God We Trust”.
http://www.treasury.gov/about/education/Pages/in-god-we-trust.aspx
Well, Nate….since you brought it up…. “I suppose your next question might be, “What bible” in reference to the bible a President places his hand on when being sworn in to office… the President may not believe in the God of the bible he is placing his hand on, but we all know which bible it is referring to.” You do realize that you’re making my case for me don’t you? If the Bible is customarily used, and it is, the invocation of “god” is used, and it is, the idea of Chrstianity is touted, and it is, prayer is… Read more »
Byron,
You are quite simply wrong. Stop doing your homework at the FFRF. Trust me, I know their director personally, and if you possessed the knowledge I do, regarding Tom Barker, you’d look elsewhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw-o
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams
The problem is that it takes moral people to interpret a moral document. We are running a surplus of immoral people. Thus the Great Commission.
It is Christians who have denied gays the right to marry because God’s word clearly says it’s wrong
Sorry, Byron. You had a little typo there. Thought I’d help you out. 🙂
“””” It is Christians who have denied gays the right to marry””””
Byron, I’m sure you just let excitement over the nations continued slide into oblivion get the best of you, but your statement has no basis in fact.
In California, persons of all kinds of faith, and no kind of faith at all voted to pass Prop 8. I know, some of the “non-Christians” that put up signs in support for Prop 8 live just down the street.
I believe in the eyes of God, June 26, AD 2013 is a key date in the history of the United States of America.
David R. Brumbelow
David R. Brumbelow,
I think you are right. It is a date of drastic change not unlike that of January 22, 1973.
However, and Praise God!; A springtime date back in the first century has trumped them both, for Christ has risen from the dead! Amen and Amen!!
I have said this about 1,000 times, and will say it again here. We cannot blame the Government, any politicians, or any groups of any kind for the sin in America. We all have the freedom to sin if we choose. It’s called a Democratic Society. America didn’t want a King to tell us how and who to worship, so we fought and won. This evil cannot be blamed on society. Where I do place the blame may offend some if not all of you. To locate the blame, all we have to do is look into a mirror. That’s… Read more »
Amen Jess! While Southern Baptists debate chicken or egg theology, the demons of abortion and homosexuality are winning the day, with major victories in Texas and DC today. I believe we have all the heavenly resources we need to turn this nation back to God, but they are not apportioned to us because we don’t pray as we ought. I suppose it hasn’t got bad enough yet for the church to do that. “When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.” This a day to mourn folks, to humble ourselves,… Read more »
Max,
Great thoughts!
“””It’s called a Democratic Society.””” No, it’s called a Republic. Jess, strap yourself in tight on that high horse because I see you debating “petty issues” pretty frequently. “””” Every Denomination is doing nothing.””” 1) Based upon what facts; 2) God didn’t call denominations to do the Kingdom work. “”””and sit on our behinds while the lost goes to Hell everyday””””” Maybe you are sitting on your hands, but I personally am doing every thing I know to do to engage my church more and more in Kingdom work. “””We first have to be convinced, and then the Congregations have… Read more »
Frank L.
Are your toes sore?
Scalia noted in his dissent that while the Court’s ruling did not technically require all states to immediately allow same-sex marriage, it neglected to settle the issue of what happens when a gay couple moves from, e.g, New York to Alabama, and then one “spouse” dies. Does the other have to pay federal estate taxes since their marriage is not valid in their current residence, etc.? What was once clear in DOMA is now very muddy. And as Mohler also blogged, all it will take now is one gay couple from Alabama to file a court case and the Supreme… Read more »
Egad, it’s gotten worse (although points are being awarded for a robust sense of humor).
As we get into this discussion on marriage, it will soon become evident that “because the Bible says so,” will have little impact on the discussion in our nation at large. However, a great defense for conjugal (traditional) marriage can be made without any reference to religion–Christian or otherwise. The “same sex” agenda not only seeks to redefine marriage but seeks to redefine other institutions as well, like motherhood and fatherhood. These are meaningless in a “same sex” society. I’m just beginning a great book, “What is Marriage? Man and Woman: A Defense,” Sherif Girgis, Ryan T. Anderson, Robert George,… Read more »
That book is on my “I’ll get around to that one – one day” list, Frank. LOL
One thing that came to mind as I watched all the Rainbow Flags and jubilation among gays, lesbians, transgendered, and those-to-be-named-later, is this: “is this decision indicative of some great utopian revival in America? Are we as a nation actually getting “better” as we get infinitely “broader?” Is this ruling any indication of progress? I think not. Just last week on the famous Hollywood Walk of Fame just down the highway a bit, a young lady was brutally stabbed to death in broad daylight. The man had been arrested 46 times in the last few years, seven times for assault.… Read more »
Well, I had written some more, but the NSA or someone cancelled that out before I could post it. So I will quit for now.
We gave the state power to define marriage by using it to our advantage. Now they want a piece of the pie.biblical marriage does not include a state certificate, insurance coverage and better tax rate. As long as w trust in the state certificate they have power over biblical marriage.
Dee,
Fortunately, our forefathers included free speech. It is our right and duty to speak out against their wrong doings.
I think your right about this. We (the church) in essence and practicality have turned authority over to the govt. that belongs to the church. Russell Moore nailed this yesterday. http://www.russellmoore.com/2013/06/26/how-should-same-sex-marriage-change-the-churchs-witness/ “… we must repent of our pathetic marriage cultures within the church. For too long, we’ve refused to discipline a divorce culture that has ravaged our cultures. For too long, we’ve quieted our voices on the biblical witness of the distinctive missions of fathers and mothers in favor of generic messages on “parenting.” For too long, we’ve acted as though the officers of Christ’s church were Justices of the… Read more »
Moore’s commentary was long on the “for too long…” but short on ways to confront what is going on. Did he mean specifically in the church? Did he mean to continue to press politicians? He gave no specifics for how or what Christians should do, simply “sermonizing” over the issue of marriage.
Is he advocating tearing up our marriage licenses? He spoke in large metaphors and gave no specifics….
Yep, he is already fitting in to his new role as a politician…
Seems pretty clear. If the couple falls short of biblical expectations for marriage and a life dedicated to God, don’t do the wedding.
So, you think that is the ultimate point of his commentary?
The ultimate point? No. I was just addressing that one issue quoted by Tarheel. Moore hits several points, including the call for stable, biblical marriages which serve as lights in the darkness. He is not writing a marriage book – he can’t say everything – but his language is not vague or unspecific.
I would think we are all in favor of marriages that serve as lights, but Moore’s commentary (as the new head of the ERLC) did not give us any indication of how his office would be interacting with politicians or giving believers/churches any thoughts on how to continue to engage the political discourse? Isn’t that his job? Furthermore, is Moore saying the SBC churches aren’t currently measuring up to holding their membership accountable for the marriages among their members? Is he calling out pastors of the SBC and telling us we better get our houses in order? (As if we… Read more »
I must admit his words fell a bit short for me
Bruce H.
I agree, My speaking out, now includes only marrying folks that are members of my church.
Just a question Jess. So if a young girl who is a member of your church goes off to college, meets a believer and wants to marry him, but he is a member of another church and the girl and the parents want the wedding at your church, and she wants you (her pastor to do the wedding), you are going to tell them–forget about it… If so, are you going to press that the church itself not allow the wedding at the facility because the groom is not a member of your congregation? I don’t think you really were… Read more »
Nate,
He can become a member of my church or she can become a member of his church. I will not do weddings for members of other churches.
That is understood in the beginning.
But if she becomes a member of his church, then she subsequently violates your statute. So would you then tell her family that she can’t get married in your church and you won’t officiate? If so, would you voice an objection for her getting married in the church you pastor? Just trying to understand. I appreciate your concern in this matter, but was trying to understand possible instances where you could feel comfortable. I think you would almost have to have similar hesitations about any marriage you perform since you can’t guarantee you will always be their pastor, since you… Read more »
“”””Just curious, but do you hold to closed-communion as well – “””
You have to ask?
I most certainly hold to closed communion, there is no other legitimate communion.
If she becomes a member of his church, then it is out of my hands,
If they want to get married in my church, then her new pastor can officiate. I can’t see any reason why she wouldn’t want to get married in her new church. Her parents shouldn’t be telling her where to get married anyway. If this is the case, it seems to me the marriage is off to a rocky start.
I will not even perform a pet marriage ceremony unless they belong to members of my church, and well behaved.
A male dog must not bark at another female dog. Also there is an
extra 300.00 fee, because it’s so hard to get a dog to recite a vow.
Dave,
Would you delete my last two comments?
I want to step up to the plate and take some swings. CB is going to be throwing batting practice for me. 1). Do you think the SCOTUS decision on DOMA was conducive to the good health of the United States? No and yes. No in the sense that it is, yet another, raw political decision by the Supreme Court and it completely ignores the law (not to mention “the Law”). Yes in the sense that none of us should have been able to listen to the story of Matthew Shepard without feeling violently ill even if the thought of… Read more »
“””” The argument that the state has no interest in preventing same-sex marriage purely from a Constitution/Bill of Rights point of view is not a weak argument and it is levered on the same freedom that we Christians depend on in order to maintain freedom of religion.”””” This sounds good on the surface. It may have a fatal flaw of presumption. It presumes that Christians will be afforded the same standing in court that homosexuals have been given. That is a big presumption and evidence does not give a strong reason to accept it as true. In regard to Matthew… Read more »
“their” not “there”
Greg Harvey, 1). The SCOTUS decision on DOMA was not conducive to the good health of the United States. 2). The SCOTUS decision on DOMA was not a right and godly decision. 3). New Testament Christians should not graciously support the SCOTUS decision on DOMA. Two additional statements relating to your comment. A). What happened to Matthew Shepherd was wrong. I would hope that any person who frequents this blog would agree that it was. In addition, I would hope that any person who frequents this blog, had they been there, would have done whatever necessary to stop it. B).… Read more »
You fellows arguing for the USA as a Christian Nation have several things in your favor. One, you have two decisions by the Supreme Court, one in the 1890s and the other in the 1790s, both of which affirmed that America was a Christian Nation. Two, two professors from Houston did a research project on the founding documents of the USA and of the colonies, etc. and they concluded that the number one source of our documents is the Bible in double digits, like about 34% and the next major sources were John Locke, 8-9% and the French political philosopher,… Read more »
Can we change the cliche again? The Houston meeting has come and gone, and though we resolved against this, it happened anyway.
“””then how exactly is that same govt. considered Christian in any real sense? – “””
In the same way Israel is God’s chosen people though they ignore Him.
Our laws are Christian based. Our jurisprudence is soundly Christian. Our national memory is Christian.
Of course as you point out it is changing rapidly. This will create a vacuum that will be filled by another religion.
But the citizens of the geopolitical nation of Isreal are not Gods chosen people, are they?
Has God made Israel like covenants with America?
Is America noted in the prophecies yet to come?
It’s very presumptious to assert that God is on America’s side.
Frank said.;
“Our laws are Christian based. Our jurisprudence is soundly Christian. Our national memory is Christian.”
So are the laws and jurisprudence of several other nations….are the “Christian nations” too?
Not sure what national memory even means…you’re obviously smarter than me. (he said sincerely)
Tarheel, I don’t know of any other nation with Founding Fathers (over 200) that by a wide majority saw the establishment of our nation as an act of Providence. This word is always capitalized in Founding Documents because it refers tto the God of the Bible. Other nations, may have some connection to Christian values, but I don’t I can’t think of any that were specifically chartered to be a place to express their Christianity without oppression. Yet, it is true that nations, such as England share Christian values. But, their jurisprudence developed quite differently than our Constitutional Republic. There… Read more »
Frank said “…Constitutional Republic…”
So that’s what makes us Christian?
I think several countries around the world use that moniker.
Being “Christian” has nothing to do with political Philosiphy.
Tarheel,
I made that statement to indicate that when we push democracy we end up with morality by vote, not by principle.
See below for my perspective on why it is helpful to understand the “Christian” foundations for our nation.
So, Frank, setting aside whatever narrative one prefers concerning our founding, what would you do today? Duly elected presidents nominated Supreme Court justices who were confirmed by duly elected Senators. Our constitution has all those provisions about a balance of power whereby the SCOTUS can rule on laws passed by legislators but wayward justices can be impeached, as can presidents if the citizenry is sufficiently disgusted at their actions. Congress can also set limits on the SC or expand the number of justices. God can do anything He wants about the SCOTUS. At the moment, apparently, He is allowing things… Read more »
I think that the Iranian revolution as well as the Taliban both in Afghanistan and Pakistan are fantastic models of how we should not frame the Christian life. More generally: I’m not sure that the general Muslim propensity towards a private, religious view of “law” (which actually is more like “commandments” in both Hebrew and NT scripture while it’s more like the Arabic word “fatwa” which is a “legal pronouncement for a specific situation” according to Wikipedia in Muslim life. Very specifically, “shari’ah” as a specific, religiously founded moral code and religious “law” seems to me to be successful in… Read more »
Greg Harvey, I do not think that my convictions would constitute the mentality of the Taliban. My convictions about the issue of DOMA and the ill-fated decision of the SCOTUS related to it are founded on the teachings of the Scripture and the fact that the United States was founded on a Judeo-Christian ethic. Also, I have no concern about the argument that the United States is or is not a Christian nation. It is obvious that the US is not a Christian nation. Nor, has it ever been. Yet, it is very obvious that the Founding Fathers did adhere… Read more »
CB: My apologies for not getting a response up yesterday. I wanted to and started one but my duties prevented concluding the comment. I also started it in a different venue and currently don’t have access to the thoughts I had strung together. So rather than going into further detail in an effort to convince you where my heart lies–I thought my earlier answers demonstrated that this style of litmus test question didn’t permit the kind of nuanced discussion that we need to have at this point, but clearly that didn’t satisfy you–I’ll let my actions speak: I live in… Read more »
Greg Harvey,
I think here we shall agree:
“And ultimately, no matter what happens to this nation, God’s children must be obedient to Him and fulfill the Great Commission and be aggressive therein and be content to know God is in charge of the consequences of our obedience. The same was true in Nero’s Rome and it is true in our Untied States.”
CB,
Amen.
David
William, You seem to imply that I am advocating for “going back to somewhere in our storied past.” Perhaps I would if that were possible–it is not. I’ve not made that argument. I simply think it is helpful for us to understand where we have come from to better understand where we are. I think those who ascribe to a false past will likely not have a faithful present and fruitful future. I’m not advocating seeking to make our nation a Christian theocracy. You use the term, “God can do anything?” but you begin by asking me, “what would I… Read more »
Revelation 2:5 is the Scripture I was alluding to above.
Christiane,
Do you believe that homosexuality is a sin against God, or not?
David
A proper question, Vol.
L’s, here is another or two.
1). Do you think the SCOTUS decision on DOMA was conducive to the good health of the United States?
2). Do you think it was a decision that New Testament Christians should graciously support?
Hey, since we are staying with the topic of the post, let’s just go ahead and make it three questions.
3). Do you think it was a right and godly decision?
The Supreme Court Rulings: “Houston, We Have a Problem” (Cliche Changed for William Thornton!)
If I recall correctly, not too long ago, a SBC church ordained a woman to the pastorate. As a consequence, this SBC church was, for lack of knowing the proper term, “disfellowshipped” by the state or national SBC bodies.
Now suppose a SBC church conducts homosexual weddings in its church due to state and/or federal law.
What happens?
TUAD: At least for right now, churches cannot be compelled by law to conduct such weddings.
“TUAD: At least for right now, churches cannot be compelled by law to conduct such weddings.” They might in the future, but hopefully not. There is a certain amount of discussion right now about protecting religious liberty (through legal and political means) in view of this week’s SCOTUS rulings. 501(c)3 tax-exemption or fidelity to Christ and His Word? The Catholic Church abandoned adoption services in Massachusetts when state law said they had to provide adoption services to homosexual couples. “Come and die” was a phrase, concept, principle, aphorism used by SBC Pastor Kyle Idleman in his book “Not a Fan”.… Read more »
Surely they will be kicked out so as to be consistent with the kicking out of a church for ordaining a woman.
What would be the difference?
Surely they will be kicked out so as to be consistent with the kicking out of a church for ordaining a woman. –
The doggone well better be, since by performing that wedding they have proven themselves to not be a Christian church, much less Baptist.
Christiane: You have a problem. Fundamentalism is the embattled remnants of old orthodoxy, biblical orthodoxy, which was the Christian Faith which helped to bring this nation into being. Indeed, it forced the founding fathers to admit that the Providence of God, the God of the Bible, no less, was certainly involved in the great Charade. Those awakenings made it safe for people to travel through out the settlements. Just consider how one Methodist preacher went into a Robbers’ Roost on the Ohio River, won them all to Christ, and ended their reign of terror, murder, thievery, etc. Where ever the… Read more »
Above, William asked, “what would I do today?” I think that is a very good question and one I am wrestling with in my ministry, and my personal life. For one, I am gathering my resources to prepare for a time when there will be less in God’s storehouse. I am helping my children get out of debt so that they will be prepared for a coming famine in the land so to speak. That is a large part of my ministry. I am also “making hay while the sun shines.” Our church is experiencing a bit of a revival… Read more »
Frank, you and I think alike on many denominational funding questions and I think that the long term decline of the CP is partly explained by folks like you who just don’t see as much value in asso. Missions and the CP as they do in LM, AA, and local missions?
William,
I don’t think we can take a smaller pie and cut into more pieces and think we are doing more ministry.
The CP has become a bloated bureaucracy.
We have many associations for example that pay 95% of receipts to pay someone to open the office each day. My Associational Missionary is a great person that loves the Lord. He is just in a dead end position. He needs to be in a church.
The CP has eclipsed the church.
I don’t understand why gays want to get married when most of the rest of the people in the country are not bothering. Have you looked at the fraction of children who are born to unmarried mothers? We have problems that are worse than gay marriage as far as messing up children and the culture.
And besides, we have all these conspiracies that we have to beware of.
Presidential Tweet Morality Tweet from Barack Obama “Retweet if you believe everyone should be able to marry the person they love.” 06/29/2013 – James White I guess we live in a day when ethics and morality are discussed in 140 character snippets. Fitting, for the level of dialogue. I should not be shocked that those who think that man is nothing more than the random chance accident of cosmic forces, the result of atoms bouncing off one another in a cosmic soup of chaos, do not exhibit a deep interest in transcendent meaning or life-guiding morality. If you are not… Read more »
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