I have been a regular attender at a Southern Baptist church since nine months before I was born. I’ve been a member of 10 different Southern Baptist churches over the last nearly five decades – and what a turbulent 50 years they have been. I was saved and baptized in February of 1964 at Immanuel Baptist Church in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. It was a different denominational world that I was baptized into than the one I serve in today.
I heard the frustration in my dad’s voice a few years ago as he talked about his church search in the new community into which he and mom had moved. “I can’t find a church I understand. The music is strange. The preaching is strange. I’ve devoted my life to the church and it has abandoned me.” He has been an SBC pastor since the 50s and he feels like a stranger in a strange land in SBC churches today.
The last fifty years has been a time of radical change for the Southern Baptist Convention and its churches and it has left us with an identity crisis. Who are we? What defines a Southern Baptist? What is it that binds us together as a denomination?
We like to think that it was our theological commitment to God’s Word and the gospel it proclaims that brought us together, and there may have been a time when that was true. But it was not so in the SBC I grew up in. We were fraying at our theological edges in the 60s and 70s. Ralph Elliott’s 1961 commentary “The Message of Genesis” became exhibit A among SBC’s conservatives that there was a fracture in the theological makeup of the convention.
It was not theology that united the SBC of my youth.
Southern Baptists were united by something simpler – a common culture and practice. You could go from church to church and find a very similar form of worship and familiar programs. There would be Sunday School at 10, Worship at 11, Training Union at 6 and evening worship at 7. All the Sunday School classes used quarterlies from the Baptist Sunday School Board. You came to SS and filled out your envelope (were you a 100% Christian this week?). Wednesday night was for prayer meeting, with and RAs and GAs for the kids. The WMU was active and often powerful. You could count on the fact that somewhere around 10% of your offerings would go to the Cooperative Program. In December, we gave to Lottie and in the spring we gave to Annie. At the worship services we sang hymns with a piano and organ, led by a man in a suit who waved his right arm to the beat. When we sang the hymn, he did his duty and announced, “You cannot sing ‘Standing on the Promises’ while you are sitting on the premises.” There was a prayer at the offertory that blessed the gift and the giver. The preacher delivered a loud and forceful three-point gospel message that ended with a passionate invitation at the end, while “I Surrender All” or “Just As I Am” was sung. You could walk into any city in the South (the SBC had barely left the Deep South in those days, and many SBC churches in “pioneer” areas were designed mostly for displaced Southerners) and feel at home at the local SBC church.
That was the church I grew up in. It was the only way I knew and I assumed that it was spelled out somewhere in 2 Hezekiah. Oh, there were a few renegades around – a pastor wearing robes and doing liturgies or one flirting with the charismatic movement – but the SBC had a common culture that was comforting and stabilizing. If you were SBC in the 50s, 60s or early 70s, I’m guessing you can identify with the previous paragraph.
There were some key elements of the unity of the SBC at the time.
- We were united by our denominational identity and cooperation in missions through the CP.
- We were united by our isolation from the rest of the Christian world.
- We were united by our traditions, programs and denominational culture.
People who are more recent entrants into the SBC world might not understand the isolationism of the SBC in the days of my childhood. We were a world unto ourselves. I was a student at Dallas Seminary in the late 70s. At the time, if you did not get your degree from a Southern Baptist seminary, you were something of a leper. Because I sensed the call of God to stay within the SBC fold, I transferred to Southwestern for my final year and got the imprimatur of acceptability on my degree.
In 1979, two significant things happened. We elected Adrian Rogers as president of the SBC (I was there and cast my vote!), beginning the war we now know as the Conservative Resurgence. At that same time, leading evangelicals met in Chicago to develop the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, defining the doctrine that would become so controversial in our circle.
In a theology class, I asked Dr. Edwin Blum a question. Would the Chicago Statement have any impact on the battle that had started in the SBC? All these years later I can still remember Dr. Blum’s bemused answer. “Southern Baptists live in their own little world. Nothing that happens in the Christian world affects them.”
It is hard to argue that he was wrong.
Southern Baptists of the 60 and 70s were theologically divided, but united (even isolated from the rest of the Christian world) by a commitment to cooperative missions and a traditional Southern Baptist culture. Today, all of that has changed. We are engaged much more in the greater evangelical world, we are quickly moving away from cooperative to more independent missions and we have left many of our traditions behind.
Where Did My Father’s SBC Go?
I believe that there were several significant influences that have produced this radical change in the SBC over the last 50 years. This list is certainly not exhaustive.
1) The CR scrambled the SBC’s eggs.
The conservative resurgence, whether you loved it or hated it, hastened the end of the SBC of the 60s. During the 20 years or so before the CR began the SBC was maintaining programmatical unity while becoming increasingly theologically diverse. The CR reversed that. The proponents of the CR maintained that there is, in fact, a doctrinal basis for our unity. It’s not enough to just say “I love Jesus” and give to the CP. We need to have a theological core.
I agreed with that, but I think we need to recognize that it was a shock to the cultural and programmatical unity that had marked our recent existence.
There is something else that I think happened at the time. Conservative pastors and churches were growing increasingly frustrated with what we perceived as theological drift within the structures of the convention. So, we started going outside the convention for fellowship, for education for ministry, and for materials. When I was at Dallas, the largest denomination represented among students there was Southern Baptist. Mid-America flourished during this time. Southern Baptists began to turn to other publishers for SS literature and to parachurch ministries for discipleship materials. The hegemony of SBC culture over local churches began to unravel.
So, as conservative (and often large) churches grew increasingly frustrated with the entities of the SBC, they began to do more independent ministries and to give less to the Cooperative Program. It would be hard to argue that the CR was good for the CP. Those who did not want to contribute to the salaries of professors who they believed were undermining the faith began to look for alternate and independent missions options. The statesman of the CR, Adrian Rogers, warned that the Cooperative Program had become a sacred cow to many. It was a useful tool, he said, but not a sacred mandate.
Then, suddenly, these men who had been on the outside were in the positions of power. They had caught the virus of evangelical cooperation and brought it with them into the halls of power. The isolationist tendency of our convention received its first blow from the Conservative Resurgence.
2) The Promisekeepers movement broke down the walls.
I can still remember the chills that ran down my spine as Steve Green sang at the Pastor’s Promisekeeper’s meeting in Atlanta in 1996, “Break Down the Walls.” We were called to a greater unity and brotherhood to reach our cities for Christ.
Promisekeepers (for good or ill) was a grassroots movement that changed our churches from the bottom up. Men went to meetings and worshiped with a freedom and vigor they did not experience in their local churches. They came back to their staid, traditional and isolationist Baptist churches and demanded something more.
It was not just PK, but that organization was the tip of the spear of evangelical ecumenism (EE), a force that was both positive and negative. It brought Christians together, but also caused people to ignore doctrine and biblical truth. People felt an increasing loyalty to the Universal Body that had an impact on local bodies. But my point is not to analyse PK, but to simply observe that it, and the attendant evangelical ecumenism, forever changed SBC Culture.
The PK/EE movement had two notable impacts. First, it dealt another serious blow to SBC isolationism. It may have been the death blow. There are very few SBC churches today that give any indication on their websites of their involvement with the SBC. Denominational identity and loyalty have waned severely.
The other effect was on the traditional worship that marked SBC churches in my childhood. People went to PK and enjoyed a different (more charismatic) style of worship. They went back to their churches and asked why they couldn’t worship like that at their own churches? Contemporary worship services sprung up everywhere which eventually led to churches that abandoned SBC culture and tradition altogether. (As I edit this, I think that I must also credit Promisekeepers as one of the most significant forces in racial reconciliation in the church – it was a major theme. Some of the progress we have made in the SBC must surely be credited to the constant emphasis on it by McCartney and his compatriots.)
3) Megachurches turned everything upside down.
In the 50s and 60s it was almost unthinkable for an SBC church to fund missions independently. We did not do it. Missions was a percentage of undesignated offerings through the CP together with Lottie and Annie.
There were big churches back in those days, of course, but the phenomenon of megachurches had not really taken hold. The last 20 years or so has been described as the Walmartization of the church. Bigger churches grow by assimilating smaller churches. Again, it is not the point of this post to argue the value of megachurches. They are what they are.
But one thing is pretty clear about megachurches. They tend to be more independent and less cooperative than smaller churches. When you have budgets measured in the millions, you suddenly have the option to do certain missions activities on your own (and maintain control over them) that previously might have been done in cooperation with the denomination.
4) Moral and spiritual changes in the world around us.
Obviously, these had an effect. The culture we live in has changed dramatically. There has been a wholesale casting off of moral standards as people have embraced immorality as moral and perversion as normal. The church has had a lot of trouble adjusting to that. This has affected the church as a whole, but has also affected the SBC.
Where Are We Now?
Everything has changed since 1960. There are very few churches that still follow the old program. Even churches that consider themselves traditional today would be viewed as radicals by the churches of my childhood. The cultural and programmatical unity of those years is gone now – the ties that bound us have been broken!
The traditionalism of the SBC still exists, but it is slip-sliding away. We’ve been through the worship wars and the cultural relevance battles. They still rage. But the traditional SBC church I described above is now a rare bird.
SBC isolationism is largely gone as well.
But perhaps the most troubling reality for the SBC is that the cooperative spirit that bound the SBC together in the pre-CR days is now on the endangered species list. We said that it was not enough to just “do missions” together, if we did not share a certain theological core. I said amen to that. But once we un-tethered ourselves from the sacred cow of the CP, we tended to find more and more reasons to “do it our way.”
The theological component that we see as a blessing in the SBC has also become a bit of a problem. Just how far must our theological unity go before we can cooperate. Inerrancy? Yes. Salvation by grace through faith alone? No doubt. Baptism by Immersion? Affirmative. But other issues have come up as well that are not so easily answered.
- What about those with charismatic leanings or private prayer languages?
- Is complementarianism essential to our unity?
- What about election and predestination?
Once we opened the door to a theological bases or fellowship, figuring out where to stop has become an issue.
Where are we now?
Having seen our cultural and programmatical unity shattered in the last several decades, the SBC is facing an identity crisis that threatens our health and even, perhaps, our existence.
Where Do We Go from Here?
There are, of course, no easy answers. I would make several suggestions.
1) We must define the basis of our cooperation.
We have an identity crisis, so we have to define who we are. We no longer have a united culture, so we must define who we are without all those things that bound us together years ago.
Can people as disparate as Southern Baptists have become today find a theological and missional basis for cooperation? If we do not, we will splinter into many smaller and less effective pieces.
2) We must learn to be comfortable with with diversity.
I have chosen to leave the whole racial component out of this, for the sake of time. Southern Baptists are learning to be more racially diverse. But we are also going to have to learn to be culturally diverse as well. Can “coat and tie” Baptists coexist with the “sandals and jeans” set? Can we partner with those who share inerrancy and Baptist theology with us, but disagree on other key theological issues?
We are no longer unified by a monolithic SBC culture. We must learn to partner with those who are different or we will fracture until the SBC becomes insignificant.
3) We must embrace the future
The rear view mirror on my Durango fell off a while back. Its a pain in the neck not being able to look behind you. We always need to keep an eye to the past. But you cannot drive forward if you will only look in your rearview mirror. I think that is an apt description of too many Baptists – trying to drive to the future looking only in the rear view mirror. We have to move forward, bringing the best of our heritage forward but changing and growing to meet the future’s challenges.
Remember:
- Sunday School was once a new program.
- Someone thought up the Cooperative program as a new strategy.
- Every tradition was once an innovation.
We cannot assume that the old is better than the new, nor that the new is better than the old.
4) We must remember that Christ is the ground of our unity.
As the cultural and programmatic unity of Southern Baptists is stripped away, we need to remember the true ground of our unity – Jesus Christ our Savior and Lord. We have been bought by the blood, baptized in one Spirit into one Body and given the same Spirit to drink. We are one in him!
That is actually a greater unity than the cultural unity we once shared.
I guess its sad that stuff like this interests me. I’ve been reading “Southern Baptist Identity” by David Dockery (a must-read for anyone in the SBC) and ruminating on the changes going on in our fair convention.
I’ve spent way too much time on this, its too long and most of you probably aren’t interested.
But I do think there is some value in examining the forces that have changed our convention over the past 50 years.
Dave,
I think this article is tremendous and though I’m just a young whipper snapper I think it’s pretty dead on. Thanks for taking the time to “bore us” with it.
Excellent post here
Wish more on both sides would read
For us there is hope
sorry about the haiku, but I felt inspired to be minimal in my gushing praise!
Wow. Haiku? Really?
Great article – good insight. After almost 40 yrs of pastoral ministry, I sometimes wonder what has happened to the SBC I have known. I am change oriented, but still have a sense of estrangement. I remain a Southern Baptist nonetheless.
Dave, I perceive that “thou art a prophet; for no man can speak or write like this except God be with him.” You are asking the critical questions. From whence cometh the answers? When the SBC definitively answer the questions you’ve raised, then many of our other issues will begin to subside and be resolved. Until a statesman/prophet or leader rises to the forefront that lead us to address and answer the questions you’ve raised, the SBC may have seen her best days. Could it be that God has “brought you into the Kingdom for such a time as this,”… Read more »
I know Dwight may consider it an insult, but I agree with him (invisible smiley face).
Frank L.,
I perceive that thou art a prophet as well -:). Be blessed.
I can see in DAVID’s number 4, an acknowledgement of the great mystery of the union of Christian people ‘in Christ’ . . . He is pointing to Christ as the Source of Christian unity: a belief that is strengthened within us by the Presence of the Holy Spirit I, too, see much in DAVID’s post that is evidence of blessing; and it may truly be as you have said, Dr. McKissic, ‘for no man can speak or write like this except God be with him.” The truth as I see it is that the closer Southern Baptist Christians encircle… Read more »
The one thing I have Dwight, is a big mouth and a willingness to state my views. If God can use that, that would be a great thing. Mostly, my big mouth has gotten me in trouble through the years.
Thank you for your kind words.
Dave, I wonder if, with all of our unity, isolationism, and power in the 50’s-70’s, we had used that for good to uproot segregation and racism in our churches and society – where would we would be today? Since we didn’t speak to it the way we should have because we were wed to the larger culture and we took its views as our own, I wonder if God has scattered us, and neither all the kings horses or men could put us back together again. We were unified when white Southern culture was unified. When it fragmented, we did… Read more »
I’m about as conservative as they come, Alan, and was a foot soldier in the CR. I regret some of the actions taken in that battle, but not the battle itself. However, to our shame, the simple truth is that the moderates were more concerned with racial equality issues back then than conservatives were. Of course, there were conservatives who took up the battle. My dad used to take us to Mt. Zion Baptist in Cedar Rapids after our services were over, and even exchanged pulpits with the pastor of that church (this was in the 60s and not that… Read more »
“””However, to our shame, the simple truth is that the moderates were more concerned with racial equality issues back then than conservatives were””” I don’t know if I agree with this or not. In one sense I do–they talked about it much more–but in another sense I disagree. I see the moderate (liberal with training wheels) social agenda as different from seeking a biblically based equality. The moderate approach, to me, was to change the structure of society without addressing the heart. This had not brought about any true racial equality–and could not. The conservative approach is much slower and… Read more »
Alan, “””We were unified when white Southern culture was unified””” I think this hits on a key issue. Information in the 50-70’s doubled perhaps every 15 or 20 years. Now it doubles every 6-10 months. I’m only 56 and personal computers did not even exist until I was near college age. We need a “new” SBC for a “new” day. If we have an SBC where my father’s generation feels perfectly comfortable, I’m thinking we are in an SBC that will not survive. I am actually trying to build a church that I myself, as the pastor, am not completely… Read more »
“If we have an SBC where my father’s generation feels perfectly comfortable, I’m thinking we are in an SBC that will not survive.”
Scary but true.
Clark, I agree wholeheartedly, this is a scary truth–and a slippery one. I do not have the answer except to say that we must learn to communicate in a new way, to a new man, in a new time. I just preached on Jesus healing the deaf/mute man (Mk. 7). The actions of Jesus seem odd, even repulsive at first blush. Then, it dawned on me that Jesus was speaking to the man in the only language he could “hear” — touch. My kids still think I’m “cool.” They think I still relate well to kids their age (early 20’s).… Read more »
Frank, I want to commend you for working diligently to reach out to younger people and trying to help your church to balance serving both generations. That is a hard tightrope to walk and the fact that you are seeing success speaks well of your genuineness. Young adults can see a phony coming a mile away. Keep at it. As you seek to start your new work, if you need someone to bounce things off of, feel free to email me. I can tell you lots of what not to do and pass on a few nuggets of knowledge that… Read more »
WOW, good blog dude. And the summation point #1 is critical. There must be a basis for our unity. And yes, your last point that it is primarily Christ is vital, but we could find unity with Bible Churches, evangelical methodists and presbyterians if He is the only “point” of unity. But while Christ alone is the foundation and chief cornerstone, we need to find out how to define who we are or prepare to abandon ship. Some would ask “is that so bad?” I would say “yes.” Not because Southern Baptists are the Best thing that ever happened to… Read more »
Good word Dave. Good rundown of SBC history and how it fits in the history of evangelicalism. From my perspective you provide a good voice to step back and look at things objectively.
Blessings,
m.b.
Dave, I echo the kudos on the insight you show on this post, echoing (as you recognize in comment #1) the thoughts of Dockery in his book “Southern Baptist Identity.” He also says many of the same things in the “Building Bridges” booklet he co-wrote with Timothy George in 2007. Maybe, just maybe, we can re-channel the blog discussion in the SBC from a focus on Calvinism and its alternatives, back to the underlying discussion on Baptist Identity, cooperation, and Christian unity. I, for one, am glad we are now basing our cooperation more in accord with our views of… Read more »
That is my intent.
The bigger picture and longer term view of history is that the SBC with a strong identity rooted in the programs and agencies of the convention is of a relatively short term and cerainly in the history of the church of more than 2,000 years is short term. It began in 1925, with the creation of the Cooperative Program. Prior to the CP’s creation each seminary had to go hat in ahd to individual churches to garner support. The CP was quite radical in the history of the church and enabled stable fianancial footing for Foreign Missions (and to a… Read more »
You know where Henagar is???? How do you know where Henagar is?? 🙂
Yes, I know where Henagar is because I have driven through it. Sand Mountain is a very distinct culture which is too far from any metro area for folks to commute to work and can therefore maintain a distinctively “rural southern culture” That is the reason I mentioned it.
Do you know where Henagar is?
Yes. I worked for a lady in Henagar doing bookkeeping while studying accounting in college.
Dave, You might consider adding to your three bullet point questions: What about those who believe that the gospel of the kingdom includes what might be called social and economic justice mission and ministry? (Matthew 4: 23; Mark 1:14; Luke 4: 18, 19) This may be the most critical question that we should ask and answer as it relates to racial diversity. I also had to throw in this question to give Frank L. something to disagree with me on -:). How the majority of White Baptists and Black Baptists answer this question so differently, may actually be the major… Read more »
Dave,
BTW, this may be your best post ever.
As it relates to my comment(# 20), I find it interesting that there are those at The Gospel Coalition that want to tie complementarianisms(sp) to the gospel, but they will not tie social and economic justice to the gospel. I believe Denny Burk recently b reported on this.
Dwight
Dwight, I think that would make for a great discussion…in a post of its own. i.e. What does it mean to have any of those things you mentioned “tied to the gospel?” Maybe you could write about it and kick it off. It would be a useful discussion and a welcome break from the C and NC posts of late.
Les
Ephesians 2 is a great place to look for that. Eph. 2:1-10 shows how Jesus saves us and vs. 11-22 shows the relational implications of that salvation. The dividing walls come down in Christ. You cannot divorce the second part from the first. It all goes together. 1 John 4 says that If you don’t love your brother, then the love of God is no in you. Implications are really important – essential, even.
I think it may be helpful here to distinguish between the root and the fruit of the gospel. Both are essential. But the fruit is not the root.
Les,
I’ll start to work on that post. May take some time. Thanks for the suggestion.
David, that is why I specified “implications.” I agree. But, without the fruit, there is also no root. We have been appointed to bear fruit that will last. They are different, but inseperable. I am just clarifying my intent here.
Probably because the reason some people are poor (“some” being a polite euphemism for “lots of”) are because they are too lazy to do what they need to do to earn enough money to live on. There’s no gospel mandate to help lazy people. They can do what I did–take out student loans, work two, sometimes three, jobs while in school, and study something that will allow them to get ahead. Instead, they sit on their tails and expect the govenment to give them the same standard of living that a person who actually works and contributes in a productive… Read more »
Oh, I forgot….cue the cries of “You’re a racist” in 5, 4, 3…….
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added… Read more »
Yeah, you know what Greg, I don’t see even one mention of the government taking money out of peoples pockets to give to other people. Perhaps you could point out how that is what that passage means, because I may have missed it.
Joe,
Gotta go with you on this one. I doubt you will get an answer to your question.
Oh, Joe, I agree. I won’t even make the claim from a NT perspective that the church ought to extend that Acts church experience past believers. But righteousness, justice, and mercy are prevalent themes in the prophets and we also now view the nation of Israel as having a Kingdom stance that was to be open to sojourners of other tribes/ethnos (with rather specific acculturation and faith practice requirements I should be careful to note.) The nation missed that nuance and became inward focused on being a chosen people and–this has always been something that struck me–often acted like God… Read more »
Greg What in the world are you talking about? Who said we should dismiss “helps”???? What I’m saying, and have said, is that the gospel does not mean that government should be able to take money out of the pocket of someone who worked for it to give it to someone who is too lazy to work for it. That doesn’t mean that if the church sees a family that has needs for food, shelter, clothing, etc, that the church shouldn’t help them even if the dad doesn’t want to get out and work. If we know a family or… Read more »
Or Joe,
They can serve four to six years in the military, learn how to work long hours and get along with a diverse group, save thousands for college and go to school to fulfill your dreams.
Which means that they can have a better than average chance of getting deployed and getting killed by the people we are trying to “help” in a war that knows no end. That’s not a very just option for the generational poor in America. The biggest issue I have with Joe’s position is that assumes that a person who is not working is lazy. Maybe they can’t read or write or possibly they are caring for a relative or child and cannot afford care for that family member. Further, are either of you aware of the massive amount of under-employment… Read more »
Dwight, Interesting observation. I listened to the recent discussion posted on Burk’s blog with Carson, Piper, and Keller talking about complementarianism, the gospel, and The Gospel Coalition. They seem to admit that complementarianism in and of itself is not directly tied to the gospel (or at least, is not a gospel essential), but rather indirectly. I would be interested to see, however, exactly where, as you say, “they will not tie social and economic justice to the gospel.” I think they might say it is a necessary application of the gospel, but not in and of itself the core of… Read more »
David Rogers,
I distinctly recall Al Mohler–who is a member of The Gospel Coalition I think–debating Jim Wallis at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School on this very subject. Mohler argued–if my memory serves me correctly– that social and economic justice is not a part of the gospel. Wallis argued to the contrary. I believe most Southern Baptists would take Mohler’s position. I believe most National Baptists, and most Black Southern Baptists would argue Waller’s position.
I will begin to work on a post addressing this matter. However, it will take me some time due to more pressing matters.
I will look forward to your post. I think you need to listen carefully to nuances that the GC folks have on this, though. I recommend looking, for example, at what Greg Gilbert and Kevin DeYoung have to say in “What Is the Mission of the Church?” on the wide-angle lens view of the gospel, and the narrow-angle lens.
Also, I think Keller takes a bit of a different slant on this than some of the others, at least in the type of language he uses, and the emphasis he gives to social justice.
Dr. McKISSIC,
I would love to read your post on social and economic justice.
There are no problems in our world for which the Gospel of Our Lord is not a response.
I do not see how social or economic justice can be separated from the Gospel. The Gospel that Jesus preached – the ONLY Gospel He preached – was the Gospel of the Kingdom. This Gospel announces the reign and rule of God. The Plan of Salvation is not all that the Gospel is. The Gospel is the heralding of the inbreaking reign and rule of God through Jesus Christ over all things. Southern Baptists have often preached a truncated gospel and said that was all that there was to it – here is how you get forgiven of sin and… Read more »
Dwight,
My son bought the book Generous Justice by Tim Keller today and has already read a good portion and read a number of key quotes and paragraphs to me. I definitely think you should check this source out as you are preparing your research on your upcoming post. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at what this key leader of the Gospel Coalition has to say with regard to the Bible and social justice.
I join others in looking forward to your post!
Dwight,
I found that odd as well. I really like a lot of what the GC has done but I am afraid if they press this one too far they risk jumping the shark as an organization- and I am a complimentarian.
Dwight, for the historical record, there was a significant emphasis on the Civil Rights Movement within the SBC back in the 1960’s most specifically amongst the “Moderates” at Southern Seminary and the churches most strongly connected to it and elsewhere. However, after the legislative vicotories occurred (like the Voting Rights Act of 1965) anf Fair Housing Laws were passed, there was a general feeling that since legal discrimination was outlawed, what more should be done? Many of these Moderates who took on the Civil Rights causes continued on with other causes like opposition to the Viet Nam War, Women’s Rights… Read more »
Dwight, it may amuse you to learn I tend to lean toward “social and economic justice” as being a significant part of the gospel. Where we differ would be on the approach. Whereas moderate (liberals in knickers) miss the boat is in attempting to seek social and economic justice through socialistic legislation. That has some immediate effect, as I think the Civil Rights movement proved for example, but it will always fall short of what a godly social and economic justice looks like. I’m afraid I’d differ greatly from Wallis’ approach. I’m not sure I’d state it as strongly as… Read more »
What I mean to say, Dwight, is that in regard to the racism issue I am your comrade, just not your clone.
Frank L.,
Wow!!!! I am flabergasted. I knew you would echo views like our friend Joe Blackmon in comment # 30. If you view social and economic justice as a significant part of the gospel, we certainly are comrades. Forgive me for misjudging you on this issue.
I’m sure though when I present my post, you’ll find room for disagreement. I’m always sharpened and strengthened by your disagreements until we start going around in circles.
Dwight, I’m counting on your straight-forward, take-no-prisoners style to push my buttons. As a master of overstatement and hyperbole, those who use such things annoy me. But, I’m going to do my best to present my perspective in a way that will help us come to a conclusion that will bring resolve, not just breed rhetoric. By the way . . . . I’m going to read Joe’s comment up at 30. Generally, I greatly appreciate Joes subtlties in presenting his views. Although some may feel he lacks passion and is not straightforward in his opinions . . . wait,… Read more »
I’m thinking you meant comment #31. That being the case, I stand in agreement with Joe that many who we call “poor,” would better be labeled, “lazy.”
Both need our help, but in very different ways.
For example: economic justice for a child of poverty may be to get the Baby Daddy off his butt and working. If the family receives economic support from the government, then Papa Bear should be looking for work and picking up trash on city streets.
Economic justice is a “hand up,” not a “hand out.”
I’m not sure that Joe was saying that there is not “social or economic” component to the gospel. I think he was addressing a moral issue the Bible refers to as “sloth.”
Joe, help me here.
Frank, what I guess I was saying is that the church having a mandate to help the poor DOES mean that the church should help poor folks meet their needs. For instance, a church I was a member of a few years ago had several doctors as members. Once a month we ran a free clinic. The church I’m currently a member of ministers to the poor in the community through a community garden, taking up benevolence offerings, clothing drives, etc. What having a mandate to help the poor does NOT mean is that we should support socialized redistribution of… Read more »
Joe,
I thought that your answer would be as it was. I think you some up the distinctions nicely.
Now, here’s what I don’t understand . . . how did I end up agreeing with you and Dwight at the same time?
Tim Keller certainly believes that the Gospel and Justice are intimately related. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/december/10.69.html
Dave,
The Bible says to give double honor to those who serve well. I agree with Dwight that this is your best post. Please pay yourself twice what you paid yourself for your last post. And my Rangers will see your Yankees again soon.
May your Rangers (n)ever prevail.
It is that kind of editorial control that makes this site a prime example of what’s wrong with Baptist Sports Blogs!!!
I was just trying to help you out.
Vance Havner, Herschel Hobbs, George Truett, W A Crisewell, Adrian Rogers, Billy Graham, B H Carroll, Annie Armstrong, Dodd, Lakin, Ham and on and on. I am convinced we are not as unified today because while we have great people of God none seem to be able to provide direction the leaders of old could. Trads and Calvinist would follow Vance Havner and most would not dispute him even if they believed him to be wrong. We have a void where these people stood. Maybe soon God will give us a Bertha Smith.
I think Dean is right. We’ve lost our great leaders of the past. We just dont have that right now. Really, after Dr. Adrian Rogers died, the SBC has been fragmented.
David
I don’t think it really roots in an absence of leaders as much as it is in the absence of a unifying conflict. During the CR, we had a battle that we thought was bigger than our other differences. ONce that battle was gone, we began to look more at those things on which we differ than on what we agree on.
It’s human nature. Fleshly, perhaps, but natural.
I agree. We have a leadership crisis in the SBC right now. A lot of good folks, but no champions in the mix. I am praying that God will raise up someone for such a time as this.
While I am honored by the deep regard with which my father is often held and extremely grateful for the legacy of faithful leadership he left behind, I think he would be the first to say that a church or denomination that is built, or stays together, on the basis of a few charismatic or dynamic leaders is not following the model Christ intended. I think there are still many godly and gifted leaders within the SBC today. It is God who sovereignly distributes spiritual gifts, and places each gift and gifted member in the Body in the way He… Read more »
“”””In other words, we have the gifts and the gifted men (and women) in the SBC today that God sees fit for us to have. Though we may have fond memories of the past, and the victories God led us to achieve in the past, we must together seek God’s wisdom today, with the resources He gives us today, to face the challenges we face today.””””
Amen, and amen!
What Josh said.
David it is with the greatest respect for your family as I say this. There is no question that God has provided all His church needs to be successful. What I think I was trying to say is we have always had leaders in the past that could focus us whenever an issue came up. I remember when we were debating the 2000 b f and m. Debate was back and forth on wives submitting to husbands. It went on for a while. A group was pushing that Christians are to submit one to another not merely wives to husbands.… Read more »
Brother Rogers – Your father was my mother’s pastor. She moved to Bellevue Woods to retire after my father passed away and joined Bellevue Baptist Church. Even though challenged with leadership of that mega church and drawn in various directions, Dr. Rogers still found time for hospital visitation. He prayed with my mother during one of her hospital stays. Our family is thankful for Dr. Rogers’ love – he knew a love worth finding. The SBC was honored to have him as a leader, but your father would indeed point to Christ and give Him the glory. God looks for… Read more »
I meant to also say great job Dave and I agree with your assessment as well.
It is so true that many have been underprivileged due to racial bias both in the past and yet today. And the SBC was a sinful contributor as well. And certainly we as citizens of the USA should seek legislative means to help alleviate where possible. But the goal of the church is to point men away from the world and its chains of the flesh, and point them to Christ, and the eternal salvation of their souls. So as we do what we can to help those in need of food and shelter, we should never confuse that with… Read more »
These are excellent questions and reflection. I grew up in the same SBC that you describe, in a small church of 60 to 70 people in Arizona, well outside the Southern Culture on which most of the denomination developed and thrived in the 50’s and 60’s. The church was isolated, distinguished from all other Christian churches in the community, including the other Baptists, but tied to the SBC and its sister Southern Baptist churches. But during those years, like most SBC churches in the state, it grew by “chasing down cars with Texas, Mississippi and Alabama license plates.” Reaching local… Read more »
Two hypotheical women: Woman A made some poor choices early in life (drugs, sex, didn’t take school seriously). She works as a cashier at McDonald’s for about 30=38 hours a week (no overtime). This does not pay enough to take care of her and her three baby by four different daddy (she’s not sure who the last one’s father is–could be one of two guys). She doesn’t have health insurance so for medical care she relys on the county health department. She shops at Goodwill cause that’s all she can afford so her kids don’t have the best clothes. She… Read more »
I think the world is ending because I am going to agree with Joe to an extent. I do not think that it is unjust that A makes less than B and I do not think that B needs to be brought down so that A can be brought up. I also agree That it is the church and not the government that is responsible to care for A and her needs. Where we will diverge I am sure is what has to happen when the church fails to care for A and her needs. Then the responsibility has to… Read more »
I 100% agree that the church has not done enough. I am ashamed to say I haven’t done enough and have made some bonehead decisions that have severly hamstrung my ability to help people. I’m going to have to answer for that. We’re trying to dig out of debt right now for just that reason.
Ryan you mention more than once the churches failure to serve. You do not mention that as with time, money can be spent anyway we want, but it can only be spent once. When the government takes 40 percent or more of one’s income, there is less to give to the church. You and I differ greatly on what we feel the government’s role is. I see government as the problem. You see it as part of the solution. When government is seen as part of the solution to generational poverty, this creates a vicious cycle. Of course, the church… Read more »
I believe I said that government is part of the solution WHEN the church fails to do her job. I’m pretty sure I was clear on that since Joe was agreeing with me- which has happened exactly twice before. 🙂 I’m very interested in your description of Romney as a “thorough going churchman.” Mitt Romney is a Mormon- a cult- not a Christian. I don’t care how much money he or Obama gives to charity. I care about Christians- as individuals and as churches- taking care of the poor so that the government does not have to. What would you… Read more »
Ryan, First of all I would like to say it’s been my experience that conservative churches and Christians are far and away the biggest givers to the poor in America. But and at what point are we to stop subsidizing people’s bad choices? This is something I’ve struggled with as a pastor for a long time. We have a lady here in town who has several children out of wedlock and we’ve helped her several times, but I don’t think she realizes that her poverty is caused by giving her boyfriends what they want without committment. I truly feel sorry… Read more »
John, To speak to your example, what kind of helpmhave you given her? Have you simply given her money to help with bills? A woman in that situation needs more than money. She needs education. She needs a mentor and a friend who can help to guide her away from poor choices and sinful living. That’s part of the problem with government programs- they just give money with very little education attached. The church can do more, but when we help it often resembles what the government does- we write a check. Helping the poor is messy. We have to… Read more »
Ryan,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I know I need to improve in this area.
Well, Ryan. I suppose that perhaps you start with “you.” When you have given all your money to the poor, then you can demand by example that everyone else give all their money to the poor. I guess I could ask: do you support the government using force to take from those who have to give to those who do not have? Also, you say you “don’t care” (representing a government official, and Romney representing a church-going devotee to Christ as he defines it), I’m wondering why you then would paint the church with such a broad brush. You ignore… Read more »
Frank, You have accused me on a couple of occasions of dealing very uncharitably with you. I am trying to take that to heart in how I respond to you, but you are making that very difficult because I truly do not feel like you are reading what I am writing, and are instead seizing on certain words in my responses and leveraging them against me. I did not say that the only choice was the government taking care of people or people starving. I said that the government had to step in to keep people from starving as the… Read more »
“””So I don’t care how much he or President Obama give to charities””” I know, you’ve said this a number of times. You’ve also chastised me several times for saying Romney was a Christian. I said nothing of the sort. In fact, I plainly stated the opposite. I’m not asking you to “complain about increasing taxes.” Vote for Obama and you will eventually be giving more of your money away–money you could give to the poor. Jesus never encouraged us to seek out persecution, as in, blindly giving allegience to any tax program any government chooses to put in place.… Read more »
What the scriptures say, with regard to the church, is that an identifying mark of true Christian identity is having everything in common. You’ll find that in Acts 2:42-47, 4:32-37 and 5:1-11. Where you find the believers having everything, including their wealth and property, in common, you find spiritual power that is rarely seen in the church today, especially in prosperous America. What the church was actually practicing in Acts was based on the Old Testament model of Israel, where the “government” equalized the distribution of wealth for the purpose of keeping people from taking advantage of others, accumulating too… Read more »
Denominations are useful in the fact that they allow Christians to remain separate from social clubs that call themselves a church but are not because they reject the gospel. For example, some denominations: 1) believe the Bible “contains” the word of God rather than it IS the word of God. 2) teach that the miracles of scripture never happened and that the virgin birth of Christ and His resurrection is nothing more than myth. 3) believe and teach that Bible isn’t literally true and that it’s truthfulness extends only to matters of faith and practice (they reject inerrancy). 4) believe… Read more »
Lee, Of course you miss stating that the church shared everything willingly, and without compulsion. It was not a church fiat, and certainly not a government mandate, that brought about the “common sharing,” but gracious and willing hearts. It is also important to point out that the Bible also says, “If a man doesn’t work, neither shall he eat.” And, of course, the Bible distinguishes those who are “true” widows, from those who have family which bears the primary burden for care. To suggest that: (1) the idea of jubilee has any modern application in America; (2) or that the… Read more »
What I said was “that only happens when God is in charge, or when people are completely submitted to the Holy Spirit.” When that happens, it is not hard for them to have willing, gracious hearts. What would we see, in this country, if we had a Christian church that was completely submitted to the Holy Spirit? Poverty, as we know it, would not exist.
Lee, I don’t see a problem with what you are saying as long as we agree it has to be “willing” and without any coercion from outside. Poverty, though, as we know it will always exist. The Lord said so Himself. All we can do is try to alleviate the suffering one soul at a time. I don’t subscribe to any fantasy that suggests some day (this side of heaven) poverty and suffering will not exist. Of course, if the condition as you state it above (or below) ever existed, or could exist, this world would see a drastic reduction… Read more »
Poverty, as we know it, would not exist.
John 12:8 (ESV) For the poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.”
But don’t tell me, let me guess–that’s part of the Bible that isn’t scripture because the Bible “contains” the word of God, right Lee?
There are some biblical guidelines for RESPONDING to the poor among us: Deut. 15:7 If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks. Deut. 26:12 When you have finished paying the complete tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you… Read more »
If we had a “Christian Church” that was completely submitted to the Holy Spirit, “poverty as we know it” would not exist. That is true, but not fore the reasons you seem to suggest, Lee. For if we had a “Christian Church” that was completely submitted to the Holy Spirit, poverty among Christians, persecution toward Christians, and various other hardships upon Christians would be far worse. Yet, there would be one great advantage and blessing for the Christian Church if all the Christ followers were completely submitted to the Holy Spirit. The number of apostates among us would be far… Read more »
Frank: Lee said nothing about coercion or government mandate, but being Holy Spirit led. I agree with him. Joe: The Bible also says that if you do for the least of these you are doing it to Christ. So Christ advocated the very thing Lee, Alan Cross and others are advocating. Scripture interprets scripture. You can’t just pull one verse out of a hat and call it Biblical. That is pre-text not context. CB: I am always amazed at those who think persecution is the answer, like a badge of honor. Instead of enjoying the blessings God gives, avocation of… Read more »
L’s
Not one of those verses mandates government redistribution of income to lazy people who are able bodied, abile minded, but don’t want to work for what they have.
The Bible also says that if you do for the least of these you are doing it to Christ. Who yanked your chain? The Bible does say we should take care of the poor. The Bible DOESN’T say the government can or should come take money out of MY POCKET that I EARNED and give it to other people who are able bodied, able minded but too lazy to lift a spoon of food to their mouth which is EXACTLY what Lee and Alan are advocating. Good people who need some help to get on their feet don’t feel entitled… Read more »
Also, Debs, if Jesus said you will always have the poor with you, what that means is there is no way to eliminate poverty in this lifetime so Lee’s statement is stupid and contridicts my Lord and Savior.
Just because there are poor people doesn’t mean their poverty is unjust–except to political liberals.
Joe,
I love this point of view: “””that is unequal but it is NOT unjust.”””
What some seem to advocate as “social justice” is social equality, which is socialism.
You will never convince those who lean to the left that the Bible recognizes and accepts this as the common experience of man. The interesting thing about it, for me is, even in heaven with God in full reign, there will be justice without equality.
That’s an interesting concept that many sermons on heaven seem to miss completely.
God bless you, Joe. Have a great week.
Frank, Thank you. What you’ll never convince the left wingers here about is the REASON it’s not unjust. Somebody who whines about “I can’t support my baby on my full time minimum wage job” needs someone to tell them “Well, DUH, you’re not not SUPPOSED to be able to”. Now, for some people, a full time minimum wage job may be all they’re capable of and they need help. I’m fine with helping them and if it has to be through food stamps and medicaid, I am not opposed to maintaining the programs we’ve got now. But those people on… Read more »
Debbie, Matthew 25 is the judgment of the nations and the Lord is judging the nations bases on their treatment of the Hebrews during the tribulation. He did say these the least of these my brothers or sisters you did it for me. The separation of goats and sheep is based on treatment of Jews. Many verses can be used to help others but this one does not apply to this discussion.
Joe: The Bible also says “Create in me a clean heart, O God and renew a right Spirit in me.” These lead to love for our Lord which also leads to love for people. Compassion. I have no problem with money coming out of my pocket, hard earned money to go for these types of programs. You need to live in reality. These people are not all lazy. Yes, some are alcoholics, some have a drug problem, but that is not the fault of the children. And it’s the children who suffer most with your kind of mindset. I see… Read more »
Joe, for such a young man, your wisdom sometimes astounds me about as much as your straight-forwardness sometimes scares me.
And that yanks my chain every single time.
Dean: You may very well be right, or it could be judgment on the church for not doing it’s part and having attitudes as some here. Or it could be none of the above. It could be life. Either way we are called to feed and clothe those who don’t have. I have been doing that for many years as have others. The government stepping in does not bother me at all and I am a tax payer and US citizen. To call people lazy and other names that some have here may have it too cushy, which I also… Read more »
“To whom much is given, of him much is required.” Luke 12:48
And Dean, read Matthew 25 again. I would disagree with your interpretation. It is speaking of individuals who claim to be Christians.
Debbie Give me a break. Compassion does not mean that the government has the right to take money out of my wallet and give it to lazy people. And yes, a good number of them are lazy because they believe that if someone is eating shrimp at Red Lobster while they’re eating Chunky Soup that they are being treated unfairly and unjustly, which you would agree with. In contrast, intelligent people with sense recognize that while it is unequal, it is most certainly NOT unjust. Want a better life? Earn it!! Oh, and I guess you missed the part when… Read more »
Frank
It’s a blessing, and a curse. 🙂
Shoot me an email sometime, dude.
joe(dot)blackmon72(at)yahoo(dot)com
Wow Debbie salvation through philanthropy. What a keen interpretation.
Dean
Yeah, they don’t do that whole “sound interpretation” thing up in Enid. 🙂
Listen: You guys are full of hate and venom and that is a Christian attitude? No. All I can tell you is what the passage says. It is not speaking of nations, although that would take the heat off of a lot of people. And for the sake of argument, since Fundamentalists usually relate passages to whole nations(which sometimes it is, but not in this or a whole lot of other cases, it is individuals in scripture), it seems to take the heat off of them as individuals, because they can always shuffle the blame to a nation instead of… Read more »
Now you can demonize me and vilify me all you want. In fact when you do this, the more I believe what I am saying is right. But the passage among others is clear. Now if you can live with that, so be it. But don’t put God’s name, Christ’s name or even Christianity in it, because that is not only wrong, but it is none of the above. It is being selfish. That is is. But I am not the Holy Spirit nor will I try to do His job.
And this is the result of salvation, the result of the Holy Spirit doing a work in our hearts. The result of sanctification, not the way to salvation, that too results in a one way ticket to hell. Christ is the only way and faith in Christ.
The rewards is based entirely on works. Righteousness and eternal life given to an individual based on works. It is a concept that is foreign. No books are found. No Lambs book of life is mentioned. If I feed the hungry I’m saved. If I don’t them I am condemned. I’m sorry. My heart is not full of hate I just reject salvation through philanthropy.
Debbe I have not commented on this line at all. I am not interested in discussing the subject. I said to you there are plenty of verses to use for feeding the poor. I actually agreed w you. However Matt 25 is the judgment of the nations and that is not such a verse. You then instructed me to read the chapter again. I don’t need to I have taught it many times. I have not demonized you though you told me not to use the name Jesus or Christian in your last comment. With that I bow out of… Read more »
Debbie,
I think that once again, you have missed my point. But hey, who’s counting?
“”””You need to live in reality. These people are not all lazy. Yes, some are alcoholics, some have a drug problem, but that is not the fault of the children.””” I read statements like this after reading the posts to which it refers and just shake my head. I see anyone who disagrees with a liberal, left-wing agenda–which is part of the problem–being accused of “hate.” This particular person I try to avoid because accusations such as “hate” come up often. The other issue that comes to mind when people demand that others give their money away to the poor… Read more »
“All poverty is not created equal and does not require an equal response according to the Scriptures.”
Not only that, but no one is going to tell me that I am hateful and have no compassion because I vote against politicians that want to expand entitlement programs nor will they use that politicians support of those programs as a justification to vote for them.
I deal with these people every day Frank. Some I work with. I was one at one time. I have taken many a meal, I have given money, time, and whatever I could give. I want to deal with these people Frank. It’s how we reach the world with Christ.
We also have a wonderful ministry that our church supports entitled “Forgotten Ministries” here in Enid. It helps and ministers to these very people. Anyone can donate to them and it would be greatly appreciated.
http://youtu.be/bgs2qCw0c4Y
you can buy good things at thrift shops and consignment stores and garage sales for children . . . reason: kids outgrow their clothes quickly and the clothes are passed on before they are worn out (especially the ‘Sunday’ ones) kids need good shoes (the best, like Stride-Rites) for their growing feet, they need good food (the best, no ‘fast-food’ junk), they need good doctors and dentists, and good schools (yes, sometimes private or religious school is best depending on the local public schools), everything else, you can get at the Salvation Army or the Public Library. Walmart? fogetaboutit .… Read more »
Dave,
I resonate with your article and remember the time well, as I grew up in a SBC church in Missouri. The only thing I would add is that everyone read from the same bible, which allowed for congregational readings, bible drills, and memorization, where everyone was in tune with each other.
I’m not sure whether we can or should try and go back to something similar, but David French’s article on the Gospel Coalition shows that the things that tied the SBC together back in those days is still tying denominations together today (albeit, another faith’s denomination).
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/08/16/6-reasons-why-mormons-are-beating-evangelicals-in-church-growth/
What we are facing is the return of a theology which created the greatest nation on earth, the one with the utmost freedoms, a calvinistic republic which achieved such liberties by the use of paradoxical interventions, checks and balances, the uniting of the disparate, the producing of creative tensions which far outweight the dumbdog dialectic of the Marxists and Hegelians, the biblical perspective for transformation of society, being sidetracked for a hundred and fifty years by the illumnati Malthusian economics, this last being veritable exercises in futility for the future well being of even the conspirators. However, with the coming… Read more »
In this discussion of “social justice” it seems to me that seeking to remedy the situation through government programs is like giving a man in a hole a shovel.
Is there any way we could return to the discussion of the post?
Back to the topic at hand . . . I had an experience this past Sunday that I think illustrates that “age does make a difference” in regard to the way the SBC is perceived. I preached a message in which I illustrated the uselessness and foolishness of “traditionalism” (emphasis on the -ism). I used a business meeting spat in regard to what color a wall in church could (or could not be painted). It was a foolish argument that made some otherwise sophisticated men look like childish jerks. Before the food was cold on our after-church meal, and older… Read more »
This is an excellent post. I have great hopes for the future of the SBC. It will not be what it once was. The U.S. is not the same place it was in 1845, 1925 or 1963. The SBC can be BETTER than it ever has been. We are more ethnically and racially diverse than ever before, and that should increase. It should be our strength. We are more unified around our doctrinal confession than ever before, despite the Calvinist debate. We don’t have the drag on progress and ministry that is caused by having theological institutions and colleges that… Read more »
Louis,
Though I’m a bit anxious about the future of the SBC I can give you an “Amen” on this post.
I also must say that I am very concerned about the Church’s uncritical use of the term “social justice.” The origin of this term is not Christian at all. It is from another place and another time. Inasmuch as it refers to race, I am all in, but I strongly prefer biblical language rather than language birthed somewhere else. As to economics, the issue is very precarious. I believe in a social safety net of some type. The exact contours of the ultimate are not fixed in my thinking. But I believe that time has shown that those societies most… Read more »
The color of the walls or, in the case I know about, the color of the carpet on the floor, or, in the case of Dr. Criswell, the side of the church on which the piano is located, has always been with us. It is the theology that can distract from petty things, focusing interest on how God views such follies (and what else could one call them). Our problem is we do not know our theology or how it works. We bring to the biblical truth source a lot of filters that hinder us from grasping the truth as… Read more »
Dr. J, I think you are on the mark in regard to ignorance of doctrine. I believe the reason that people, as Dave identified with his father, is that we expect “church” to look a certain way. When it starts looking different, if one is not fully rooted in Biblical truth, the human filters kick in. Now, I’m sure someone with the maturity of Dave’s father, for instance, will deal with his sense of discomfort and remain focus on the Biblical mandate of reaching others. We can be effective, even though we may not be comfortable. I have many seniors… Read more »
Missions is what should unite us. Please give generously to the IMB and NAMB.
I will tell you what I think is a frightening sea change that appears to be coming upon us and that is the lack of jobs for our members, our children, our grandchildren, great grands, etc. About Jan. of ’91, I think it was, I wrote an evaluation of some materials on jobs in the future at the request of the Vocational Director of the county school system in which I was working as a counselor, materials she had gotten at a conference on the matter. Basically, what the materials showed was “No Jobs for the future.” Why? Automation, computerization,… Read more »
Since you went to DTS, I assume you had S.Lewis Johnson, Jr. for something. What did you think of him? He was one of my favorites. I’ve talked to several men who had him and all of them really liked him – several said he was the best. I didn’t attend. I just heard him by tape and a couple of times in person. I think he was still there when you were there, maybe not. He was a real Southern gentleman with one the most beautiful Southern South Carolinian accent I’ve ever heard. A great teacher. I just wondered… Read more »
Bro. Brumbelow has identified the factors that could cause the SBC to fly apart, factors that were put in place by forces outside the SBC. I remember telling one fellow who had been in the in-group years ago that it was outside forces that ran the show, and he agreed. Those outside folks hated the original theology upon which the SBC was founded, and some of the adherents of that theology today have another agenda than what the originals advocated.
Am I missing something? I do not see where David Brumbelow commented on this stream.