This article was originally posted at Terrance Jones’ blog, Live for Him or Die Trying.
I’m far from perfect. I have made many mistakes in my life, both before and after Christ. If perfection is the requirement to sound an alarm then you should stop reading now. I have not met that standard. I stand only because of the grace of God and the perfect record of the spotless lamb, Jesus Christ, who died for my sins (past, present and future).
I also want to affirm that I will never forget my time at The Master’s Seminary. The things I’m about to say, do not negate the reality that I was shaped and molded for four years of my life in this environment. I cherish many memories and the example of many individuals. By God’s grace, the dividends are numerous and the impact will have lasting effects for the years to come. I’m grateful for Dr. MacArthur, the staff of the seminary and college, the local churches my wife and I were a part of, and the multitude of friendships that were forged through the ups and downs of that season of life.
However, the presence of true and real blessings does not mean the absence of some alarming realities. Unfortunately, people who can’t wrap their mind around the previous statement will struggle with the criticisms I levy in this post. They will only see the “heads” side of the coin, unable to comprehend that “tails” even exists. They will use phrases like “how dare you speak negatively of our great president” because of all the “good” that TMUS, Grace To You, and Dr. MacArthur have done over the years. Life should and must be examined from multiple angles from which we can appreciate elements that are helpful and reject the things that are not. We should be able to affirm both Peter’s miraculous preaching in Acts chapter 2, and his need for correction in Galatians 2 for being out of step with the gospel. As the saying goes, we have to be able to “eat the meat, but spit out the bones.” People who live among minority cultures understand this reality because much of life around us is facilitated by majority culture systems and individuals. Being a minority operating in majority culture can be like trying to build a house using the Imperial system of measurement (i.e. feet, inches, and pounds) when you have been trained your whole life with the Metric system of measurement (i.e. meters, grams).
For 11 years (4 as a student/staff at TMUS & 7 as an alumnus/church planter) I have kept my concerns mainly to myself, daring to share them with only a small group of people who’ve encouraged me to keep moving forward or whom I felt could actually bring about change. For many years I have “bitten my bottom lip” publicly, so to speak. In an attempt to honor those who have impacted my life, I have applied such force and pressure to that lip as to cause the shedding of blood. Yet quietly over the last few years, it has become increasingly difficult to keep biting that lip and wiping away the blood, and tears.
Since leaving seminary and planting a multicultural church in the inner-city of Montgomery, AL, my appreciation for the gospel and how it impacts racism and justice has only grown. As I watch the perseverance of my neighbors, live among them, and see the tangible struggles of their lives, Christ in me rises up and issues a call to action. As I see believers from various cultures and economic backgrounds forge real gospel community, deferring to one another and believing the best of one another, my appreciation for the gospel in action strengthens. To hear Dr. MacArthur and Grace To You say/write narrow-minded, inconsiderate, and frankly unbiblical things about the intersection of the gospel and racism has had a profound effect on me. It has impacted me to the point of saying, “Enough is enough.” I no longer care that I’m a low level nobody challenging a giant. I no longer care if, like others before me, I’m labeled a “black sheep” by TMUS for lovingly articulating concerns. As a matter of fact, the cavalier attitude of Phil Johnson (executive director of Grace to You), and Dr. MacArthur make it perfectly clear that even if I remain silent, I’m already a “black sheep.” Their comments/writings do nothing to consider the circumstances of anyone other than upper middle class, Republican-leaning white men (I’m neither republican nor democrat), and minorities who are accustomed to that culture. So in reality, my comments today cannot make me what I already feel like, “a black sheep”. I’m just graduating from a “black sheep” to a “blacker sheep.” It’s a promotion that I’m finally willing to accept.
Therefore, no matter what Dr. MacArthur says about the gospel and social justice in his current series hosted by Grace to You, certain truths will not change. No matter how few people hear or agree with what I have to say, the reality of the difficulties many have experienced at TMUS will remain. No matter how they try to change the subject from the real elephant in the room (probation and the potential loss of accreditation by WASC for a lack of integrity mixed with a culture of fear and intimidation) to the issue of social justice, the truth doesn’t change. It is worth noting that the vast majority of the data of the WASC report was given by my white brothers and sisters who are also hurting. I’m speaking up to encourage them, and to let them know they are not alone. I leave my thoughts with you not to change your mind, but to ensure that before God I can sleep at night knowing that I didn’t shrink back from saying hard things about beloved institutions and individuals. I write and make my thoughts public to fight for many others, who have not yet been heard or who, for a host of reasons, do not believe that they can speak up. The truth is Dr. MacArthur’s own leadership and institutions show little concern for the African American community and other minority students who grew up in an African American minority context. Every time Dr. MacArthur tells his 50-year-old civil rights story about “his good friend” John Perkins and visiting the murder scene of MLK, I often wonder why those experiences have translated into very little consideration towards marginalized people. Please consider the following realities.
In the entire TMS curriculum, which is 98 credit hours and approximately between 100 – 150 required books to read, not one book is written by a person of African heritage. Additionally, very few people of African descent are even explored within the historical theology classes. We traced the history of Christianity from 100 A.D. to our present day. Of all the historical figures we studied, I only remember Athanasius being identified as someone from African origins. What majority culture Christians don’t realize is that their world is dominated by Christians of European heritage. Minorities are often looking for faces and contributions of people who share their ethnic identity. Not for the sake of being superior. We simply long to understand how people of a similar ethnicity have contributed to redemptive history. You would think that since Dr. MacArthur is such “good friends” with John Perkins we would have read at least one of Dr. Perkins books or even learned about his legacy. However, even our classes that covered the history of Christianity in the United States were void of African American contributions.
Why does this matter? It sends a not so subtle message that the only great thinkers are European thinkers. The only great thoughts are European thoughts. Thus, Christianity is inadvertently portrayed as the white man’s religion. It’s heartbreaking and hurtful. When African Americans or people of color are in fact mentioned, it’s usually in a derogatory way for having bad theology, etc.
The truth is that Christianity would have struggled to survive tremendously without Northern Africans and even African Americans. I just had to learn of them on my own time. My seminary didn’t think those contributions were worth mentioning. I was furious when I was made to write a review of my almost 700 page American Church History book. I read the book intently looking for black or brown people and their contributions. I did not find them. But I did find that Bob Jones was included in the book as a hero of the faith. Bob Jones University refused desegregation until the early 1970’s, and then only conceded at the threat of losing their tax exempt status, which occurred in 1983. They did not overturn their rule banning interracial dating until the year 2000. This was also selfishly motivated to help the then candidate (George W. Bush) win the presidency, who took heat for giving a speech at a university that had a ban on interracial dating. (I reluctantly visited Bob Jones University in April, 2018 and I was pleasantly surprised by their repentance in living out the gospel among all people).
Again, I was furious. I noted my frustration in a blistering review of the book that could devote pages to Bob Jones’ positive contributions to Christianity and could not so much as include a couple of paragraphs on any black person with significant Christian contributions even if they were not perfect. Clearly, Bob Jones wasn’t perfect. I’m sure the professor remembers the book review because I doubt he has received many like it. You can also ask Dr. Paul Felix (the only full-time African American Professor who is now retired). I ranted in his office behind closed doors many a days with many tears. If not for him and his care for me as an African American student with a heart to one day impact the African American community, I would have surely quit. I specifically remember him telling me after ranting, “Calm down before you get kicked out of school.”
Imagine that…being in such a state of anger over how whitewashed your seminary education is that you say things that flirt with the possibility of getting you kicked out of school. I know if myself and many of my African American brothers felt this way, some of my brothers of Asian and Latino descent felt the same way or worse. I pray they will tell their stories too. Their perspectives are often left out of these conversations, but their voices are much needed.
It is hypocritical for Dr. MacArthur or anyone to say “just preach the gospel” thinking that will solve all issues. It doesn’t even work in his own church and the institutions he leads. It certainly will not work in your communities and churches. Hear me well. The true gospel is sufficient. The true gospel makes peace and destroys dividing walls of hostility. The true gospel looks racism and partiality in the face and condemns it to the pit of hell from which it came. It does not build barriers. We have a gospel that gives dignity and value and worth to all peoples. Shouldn’t our institutions that train us to take the gospel to all nations do the same? I distinctly remember when Peter, a Jew, first preached the gospel to the Gentiles in Cornelius’ home. Peter was awestruck by a divine revelation. “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality” (Acts 10:34). Then why is there so much partiality at TMUS under the leadership of Dr. MacArthur in curriculum decisions? In my next post I will continue making my argument of partiality in their preaching/worship curriculum and much more.
Terrence Jones is the pastor of Strong Tower at Washington Park in Montgomery, Alabama. Originally from Norman Park, GA, he attended Tuskegee University on a football scholarship and The Master’s Seminary (M.Div. 2011). Terrence is married to Thais and they are the proud parents of 6 children.
It’s almost a certainty that any article of this type will generate heated discussion and that some will be legitimate and some not. When some wag introduces the phrase abbreviated SJW that signals a move from reasoned disagreement to talk show rants.
This isn’t my piece but I expect that some moderation will be necessary for discussion to continue.
Thank you sir.
Terrance,
Thank you for your heart-felt courage in this post. As a long-time fan of Dr. MacArthur’s ministry, I am heartbroken and frustrated by both aspects of what is going on with Grace to You, TMUS, and Dr. Mac. I pray that these issues are handled thoroughly and righteously by the people of TMUS, et al.
Absolutely, agree with Scott here. I’m thankful Terrance Jones has allowed us to cross-post this and hopefully the coming articles in the series.
I agree Scott. I am heartbroken by some of things I’ve read over the last few days about TMUS. Thanks Terrance for allowing your post and thoughts to be posted here….your first hand experiences are meaningful for us to hear. As to the SJ posts by JM – I’m still waiting for Dr. Mac’s entire series dealing with SJ is posted before I opine As to my agreement or disagreement. He’s certainly earned that deference given his enormous contributions to my life and ministry through his faithful expository preaching and many of his books. . I also pray that the… Read more »
You can bet that our commentators won’t wait to hear all that Terrance has to say before they opine
I was stating my desire to grant deference personally to Johnny Mac – I don’t seek to impose that preference on others.
As to Terrance – Some will – some won’t.
It seems though that He’s already graciously and respectfully (thus far anyway) being asked good and helpful follow up questions questions – maybe he’ll engage and/or answer them in subsequent posts.
There is no courage in this post. Terrence Jones says “In my next post I will continue making my argument of partiality in their preaching/worship curriculum and much more.” Is this a Christian Pastor who models his life after Christ and maybe Paul talking, or a Secular Social Justice person who believes he must right the wrongs of an individual or organization by publicly making accusations that he claims are sin. Is that the way the Word of God tells us to talk about fellow believers in Christ? People (Terrence Jones) believe that someone has sinned against them and where… Read more »
What does this comment even mean?
Did we even read the same article?
My guess is you are a white male.
From: a white female who lives in another country/culture where I am the minority
Terrance Jones,
Would you name some of the ones you consider the key Black Christian leaders of the past 2,000 years?
This is not meant as an argument; I’d like to know your opinion. Who are some who should be included in the Christian history books?
And, I’d be interested in any Christian leaders you would list that are Hispanic or Asian.
I agree these are areas we often neglect.
David R. Brumbelow
I would say Richard Allen the founder of the AME church. Also, George Liele the first foreign missionary ever. Liele is never mentioned in most classes on missions. Gardner C Taylor and many more.
Not in chronological order – William Sheppard, Betsy Stockton, Mary McLeod Bethune, Eliza Davis, Samuel Crowther, Samuel Moffat’s African partners, George Liele, Lott Carey, and more. And they are in the history books. Now whether they were mentioned in Terrence’s classes or not, I don’t know. I’m sure Terrance has many others that could be mentioned.
Most of early church history took place in North Africa. We could begin there.
Augustine of Hippo was not studied? Kind of hard to get thru the Church fathers and one of the great fathers of theology without studying St. Augustine.
He was, even at greater length than other figures. But Terrence neglected to mention it.
Was it pointed out that Augustine of Hippo was from North Africa at a time when brown faces dominated the landscape? Most school’s and semenaries teach that Augustine was caucasian.
I never heard he was white and it didn’t really matter what color he was
WELL PLAYED : drop the mic and walk away
Terrance: Thank you for this post and your contribution to the discussion. I read Dr. MacArthur’s first installment regarding his concerns about the recent attempts to include the mission of “social justice” (which is not a biblical term, but is a term that has been used for years by various groups in secular culture, and now is being used by some Christians) with the mission of the Gospel propagation and discipleship that Jesus gave to his disciples. I did not see anything alarming or inappropriate in that article. You stated your concerns with Dr. MacArthur’s article in general terms. If… Read more »
Well stated, Louis.
Yes, Louis that is an excellently gracious post with good questions.
Count me among those who find this well written and helpful Louis.
I’m sure that Terrence will respond to the fair and reasonable questions you’ve posed.
Terrance,
One accusation you make is this:
“To hear Dr. MacArthur and Grace To You say/write narrow-minded, inconsiderate, and frankly unbiblical things about the intersection of the gospel and racism has had a profound effect on me.
But I didnt find where you mentioned just what those narrow-minded. inconsiderate and unbiblical things were.
Did I miss read your post?
I have the same questions as you, Michael. I kept thinking in the upper half of this post that I must be ill-informed (and maybe I am) about MacArthur’s ministries’ current position on social justice (I gathered, eventually), and was hoping that Terrance would quote or link to the position that has caused him concern.
There were none. His comments are based on the first John MacArthur’s blog post on the Grace to You website from 8/13. I don’t think you’ll find what John wrote to be consistent with Terrence’s description.
Maybe I’m just more aware of the current discussions than you guys, but I don’t think he’s talking solely, or maybe even primarily about the one blog post. He chose to not get into specifics here. Maybe he thought that would be counter-productive. Maybe he’ll get into that later in the series.
Those are serious accusations and I would think it is counter-productive to leave the vague and generalized accusations of that order on the site without being addressed.
Right. Because vague accusations without documented evidence is exactly what should be driving our thoughts and conversation. This is beyond sad.
Tom, let’s face it – you would never accept any accusation against MacArthur as anything but vague and undocumented, would you? Here is a man who was there, who has first-hand experience. but he doesn’t fit your narrative so you dismiss him.
Not to poke a bear Dave, but Isn’t Gabriel offering a different first hand experience as one having been there as well?
Has he been “dismissed” in the minds of some? Has his perspective been embraced? Is that because it’s a different narrative?
Thoughts to ponder – respectfully offered.
“It is hypocritical for Dr. MacArthur or anyone to say “just preach the gospel” thinking that will solve all issues.”
The gospel is the “only” possible solution to “all issues.” Anything else is a band-aid solution that will not suffice in this world or the one to come. There is no hypocrisy in believing the gospel will solve all issues.
I think what he meant by that, and I’ve heard the same statement by others who are troubled by social justice, is that “just preach the gospel” comes across as ignore the physical needs of the ones we’re preaching to and “just preach the gospel”. If I could paraphrase James just a little here,, he says what good is it to say, you need Jesus to someone who is hungry and then go on your way without giving them food?
If we preach the gospel and people embrace the gospel, the gospel will impel/drive them to biblical justice. That is, if they do actually embrace the biblical gospel. The foundation of justice is derived from the whole council of God’s Word. Only those who have embraced the biblical gospel can cognitively understand what true justice is. We, who are followers of Christ are to live out the Great Commandment and fulfill the Great Commission. This is the great failing of the American Church Culture. Had we American Christians not failed in our short history to love God with all of… Read more »
Terrance is nothing if not a gospel preacher. I’ve served alongside him here in Montgomery as a fellow pastor for years and now in my work with the association. We’ve spoken side by side on multiple occasions, prayer walked together, and have enjoyed strong fellowship. I’ve preached in his church and will do so again soon. This brother is the real deal and I’ll ride with him any day. Knowing Terrance, what I believe he means is that we cannot just preach a gospel message of salvation disconnected from its implications and applications into issues affected by the reality of… Read more »
What Tony said, CB.
What I said, Dave.
What Tony has said is certainly why I think “Just preach the Gospel” is more a mantra than actual fact. It appears to be dismissive of the physical and even emotional needs that we can’t help but meet or want to meet if we are truly Christ followers. It seems to dismiss the physical and aims for just the spiritual. We are on this earth for a long time CB. Comfort and the pursuit of happiness should be what we want for every human being. Suffering is not a virtue no matter what some believe. Compassion and hurting for others… Read more »
The gospel is not about our comfort and the pursuit of happiness. That idea is founded in Cultural Christianity, not biblical theology. And yes, Debbie, Christian suffering is a virtue. Where you came up with that concept is beyond the parameters of orthodox faith. To say that suffering is not a virtue is not biblical.
CB: What Dave said. And there are many verses in scripture where God has seen to the comfort and happiness for his people. Life has suffering such as death illness. We are speaking of justice here. Please keep on topic. Read them CB, I know you know where they are. Read about God’s view on justice too. There is suffering in this world for sure CB, but we can do a lot to take away that suffering. In America it’s hard for me to take your “suffering is a virtue;” seriously as we do not know real suffering, at least… Read more »
Debbie, There are different kinds of suffering, but they are all real. Some are more intense, and some are more physical or mental. And some people have higher thresholds for suffering than others. And others cant handle as much, We are not their judge. To suffer for doing right, and to suffer in the name of Jesus is real, no matter how intense. To be put upon by the world is real suffering, and who am I or who are you to say a person’s suffering is real or not? Jesus suffered before te cross. The apostles suffered. All through… Read more »
Michael: CB is not sticking to the topic. What suffering are we talking about here? Racism, others suffering and I am called to do whatever I can do to alleviate that suffering. Yes by scripture. Yes by Christ and his ministry. To do less is fine if you are not felt called to do it, but to say it is wrong or somehow negating the Gospel is simply not true. And not true is a lie. So it’s a lie. And I don’t think white males in America know what suffering like those in scripture so you must not be… Read more »
Debbie, may I remind you that it was you, not me who brought up the subject of suffering.
You stated, “Suffering is not a virtue no matter what some believe.”
That was you, Debbie, not me. I simply responded to your erroneous statement.
I stand by what I said CB and it is not erroneous. I study and have deeply studied scripture. I know what I said. I believe what I said. It’s the same thing the author of this post said. The author of this post said “It is hypocritical for Dr. MacArthur or anyone to say “just preach the gospel” thinking that will solve all issues. It doesn’t even work in his own church and the institutions he leads. It certainly will not work in your communities and churches. Hear me well. The true gospel is sufficient. The true gospel makes… Read more »
Debbie, You said: “The author of this post said “It is hypocritical for Dr. MacArthur or anyone to say “just preach the gospel” thinking that will solve all issues”. Of course, if anyone just says that, it is hypocritical. But Dr. MacCarthur doesnt “just” say that. So why is Terrance accusing him of that? Rather, Dr. M isnt saying “just” what Terrance thinks he should say, the way Terrance would like for him to say it. That kind of ungodly accusation builds barriers between brothers and sisters. That kind of accusation tears down dignity. Here is what the Scriptures say:… Read more »
Terrence says that because that is what MacArthur is saying. I really don’t think we need commentary from others on what Terrence is saying or what MacArthur is saying. A reading of the articles is pretty clear. We have not misread. Our reading comprehension is good. We just need to be honest and I don’t think an honest conversation is being had here or elsewhere. Misquotes and lies are happening. This is not Christianity. This is the opposite. This isn’t about being right no matter what or the end justifies the means, this is not a game. Quit treating it… Read more »
Translation:
Debbie: “we don’t need commentary on what MacArthur is saying… “
Debbie, just a few sentences later: “Watch this video commentary about what MacArthur said”
BAWAHAHAHA!
“We Christians in the USA comparatively suffer very little. And look where the country is, at what they enjoy, and how they treat others. Some of the strongest Christian folk that ever lived in the USA were the slaves. Despite the horrific suffering they endured, both physical and emotional, they found joy in Jesus.” Micheal White, that is true. That’s what I am trying to say. My point is that if we preach the gospel as revealed in Scripture and not in accord with Cultural Christian concepts of the gospel, we would love God and love each other. If we… Read more »
You’re not taking my “suffering is a virtue.” The Bible teaches that suffering is a virtue and most people here know that to be true. I stated, “The gospel is not about our comfort and the pursuit of happiness. That idea is founded in Cultural Christianity, not biblical theology.” Frankly, your concept that “suffering is not a virtue” is verification of my point. The American Church Culture has so watered down the mandates of the faith in order to accommodate our desire for “comfort and the pursuit of happiness” that many of us do not even understand what suffering is… Read more »
CB: I said I am not answering rabbit trails, and I am not.
A more charitable reading of his comment about “just preach the gospel” would take James 2:14-18 into context: What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith… Read more »
Mike, Thats right Mike. preaching the Gospel and doing just as the Scriptures tell us: “giving them the things needed for the body”. Or like the Lord tells us in Matthew 25: “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick,… Read more »
CB, that is missing the point.
Some are saying, “Don’t address racism, just preach the gospel. Don’t address poverty, just preach the gospel. Don’t address x or y, just preach the gospel.” Of course, the work of Christ is the answer, but we also need to address how Christ’s work applies in other areas of life.
We have to address ALL areas of life as Christ’s truth applies to them.
Unfortunately, I believe that some are using the “Just preach the gospel” mantra to AVOID speaking to key issues.
Dave, I am taking issue with a singular statement, a dangerous statement. If you give my comments an honest and unbiased reading, you know I am speaking truth here.
Let me be more charitable CB because I know you really believe what you are saying. But what I have said, if that is what you are referring to as a dangerous statement, is not. Read all of scripture CB. There are plenty that show social justice is plain human kindness born out of a changed heart. The Roman Catholics have been doing it for years. Our own missionaries have been doing it for years. You cannot have the Gospel without justice.
When did I even state, hint, or allude to a contradiction of “You cannot have the Gospel without justice.”??
Debbie (Mrs. Kaufman), I have never made such a statement in my entire Christian life. Every comment I have made in this comment thread is a confirmation that “you cannot have the gospel without justice.”
Once again, anyone who has embraced the biblical gospel and seeks to obey all that Christ has taught as mandated in the Great Commission will seek to be just and live according to biblical justice.
CB,
Exactly. And here is a rub. Do you remember the Lordship Controversy? Where Johnny Mac stood against easy believism and proclaimed that being saved included having Jesus as one’s Lord.
And now it is being insinuated that he is just preaching Gospel without the message that we should live with Jesus as Lord. For what is treating others wrong and thus unjustly thus without justice and thus being free to sin if not antithetical to living with Jesus as Lord?
Me: Banging my head against the wall again as I realize CB is blowing hot air again and arguing just to argue, again….. only our God knows why.
Dave, C’mon man,make up your mind. Do we preach the Gospel and just ‘”speak” to poverty? or any issue? Rather we take the Gospel with us into the world and speak it as much as we can, and if the people are poor, we seek to aid them in their need: if they need food, we feed them. Housing? We help them find a place to stay. Comfort for loss? We sit with them, even if it is in silence. Freedom, we visit them in jail. We are not called to speak to issues. Rather we are called to meet… Read more »
Let me go beyond racism here if I may. Ladies and Gentleman, the marginalization of any person, any image bearer in this country or any other, is sin. The true color of all racism, bigotry, prejudice, and the marginalization of one person by another person, or a group of people by another group of people has always been: Gold, Silver, and Green. And since comfort and happiness is bought with Silver, Gold, and Green, the American Church Culture has conveniently ignored most all racism, bigotry, prejudice, and the marginalization of various groups of people and specific individuals. The desire for… Read more »
CB,
To borrow a phrase:
Right as rain!
That is simply not true CB. Sounds good. Although we do have to get out of our comfort in order to help others and seek justice for others.
Good grief, Debbie – what CB said is absolutely true. Unequivocally! He sandwiched his post by beginning with this: “Ladies and Gentleman, the marginalization of any person, any image bearer in this country or any other, is sin.“ And ending with this: “It is the gospel and only the gospel taught, preached, and lived that will bring about true biblical justice to this or any other society.“ And otherwise filled truth throughout. Sincerely, for the life of me I can’t see what in his post you, one who purports to be solely on the side of angels regarding every single… Read more »
It is the last line of CB’s post that I disagree with. I am not making myself clear or else what I am saying is being twisted. I can’t figure which. But in the interest of being fair and not knowing, I will go with I am not being clear. It’s difficult to be brief on these platforms as this conversation goes much deeper than these comments. In fact Terrence Jones did a wonderful job of articulating what is wrong with your, CB and other answers here. I would just say the post answers all comments and questions to those… Read more »
Debbie Kaufman,
You stated to Tarheel, “It is the last line of CB’s post that I disagree with.”
If I am correct that “last line” of which you are in disagreement is:
“It is the gospel and only the gospel taught, preached, and lived that will bring about true biblical justice to this or any other society.”
Debbie, would you extend to me your graciousness and explain to me exactly what about that “last line” draws from you a disagreement?
I have more problems with that than I have space CB, but action is necessary. Doing. Opposing. Marching, voting against, speaking against, standing side by side physically with. The Kyle Howard video responding to MacArthur’s article is perfect for understanding where I stand on this issue. My problem with you is that you write something then tell me that isn’t what you meant. Either you meant it because you wrote it, or you don’t. But this back and forth of no I didn’t is making me bang my head and think it is fruitless to talk to you. I think… Read more »
So, Debbie, you really don’t know why you disagree. You just disagree because, well, you just want to disagree. That’s par.
CB posted is a previous comment further demonstrating he’s on the right side of things – yet you continue to deride his message:
“Once again, anyone who has embraced the biblical gospel and seeks to obey all that Christ has taught as mandated in the Great Commission will seek to be just and live according to biblical justice.“
I hope you’re position is not representative of the movement – if it is – Houston, we have a problem.
CB does a dance on this. He seems to be on the right side of things, then he shifts. It’s like the Twilight Zone with CB and you at times. If you and CB agree with Terrence Jones then you and I are on the same page. If not we are not on the same page and it’s just smoke and mirrors.
Debbie,
You said that Terrance did this: “In fact Terrence Jones did a wonderful job of articulating what is wrong with your, CB and other answers here”
Please quote Terrance where he articulated what is wrong with what CB and others said.
I honestly dont think you can.
CB, You said: “It is the gospel and only the gospel taught, preached, and lived that will bring about true biblical justice to this or any other society.” And tarheel was right in agreeing with you. Right as rain he said. In fact, this is the ONLY thing we as Christians are on this earth to do: Live the Gospel in word and deed. Some I have heard are calling this movement a different Gospel. While other s say it is a Gospel issue. But wont actually define what “this” is. So I agree with you that some of the… Read more »
“Some are saying, “Don’t address racism, just preach the gospel. Don’t address poverty, just preach the gospel. Don’t address x or y, just preach the gospel.” Of course, the work of Christ is the answer, but we also need to address how Christ’s work applies in other areas of life.” And, the same people get upset when we say that Racism is a gospel issue. Then then say, “No, it’s not a gospel issue.” The Gospel is the message of salvation only. NO ONE thinks that addressing racism IS the gospel. When we say it is a gospel issue, we… Read more »
Likewise Alan, no one is saying don’t address racism, poverty, etc….I *think* we all agree that these issues ought to be addressed. We should anyway.
The differences among us come with regard to HOW we address it. Faithful and sincere Christians will find areas of both agreement and disagreement here – I personally think we all need to do better at granting grace to one another in those disagreements.
I agree, and I said earlier – Terrance should not be (and will not be by me) discounted.
Yes…people ARE saying that.
Perhaps there are some…perhaps there are people saying “that addressing racism is the gospel” too.
I think it’s fair to say that no one commenting here should be placed in either category.
Alan, when you say “no one thinks that addressing racism is the gospel,” that’s not true, is it? There are well defined theologies that do treat combating racism as the gospel — who preach the rejection of whites benefiting from their ancestors’ supremacy, who criticize evangelical orthopraxy, who decry systems of injustice, who preach wokeness and intersectionality, and the racial trauma caused by American colorblindness. And some important reformed voices are encouraging us to adopt their *lens* while trying to be Biblically faithful. It is not clear to me that the problems with those theologies can be remedied by insisting… Read more »
And in repy to Jon and thus Alan,
We could start here on this thread by answering the questions that are asked, and by not be snarky or frustrated by either position.
No one is under any obligations to answer your questions.
Dave Miller,
Of course no one is OBLIGATED to answer my questions.
And we all already know that.
neither did I demand anyone answer.
So what is your problem with me?
I’m not being snarky. I’m being absolutely forthright. No snark at all. I’m being honest. What I wrote is what I mean.
We’ve been dancing around all of this with our “questions” for a really long time. Same questions over and over. That’s fine. Do what you want.
Alan,
I wasnt accusing you of being snarky. My apologies to you for giving that impression.
As to the other point: We havent been dancing around with our questions. Rather its the questions themselves that are being danced around. It seems that no one wants to actually have substantial dialogue.
Example: if someone states something, and the hearer doesnt quite get it, he asks a question or two trying to understand. Thats not dancing around with questions, thats inquiring as to learn and understand.
Alan,
You said:
““Some are saying, “Don’t address racism, just preach the gospel. Don’t address poverty, just preach the gospel. Don’t address x or y, just preach the gospel.””
Who is saying that?
Dave Miller,
Who is using “Just preach the Gospel” to avoid speaking to key issues?
This is the eternal conundrum. If I don’t name names, you say, “not specific.” If i do, it becomes about those people and its a personal attack. It has been a repeated thing on here. In fact, it is my impression that YOU have used the argument at times.
But I am not planning to engage you on this issue in this way.
That depends on how you define the term “the gospel.” Words without consistent actions aren’t the gospel.
Response Part 1: Brother, I’m grateful for how the Lord used TMS in your life, as He has in mine. I’m also grateful for the ministry you’re able to have. It’s always encouraging to hear how the Lord uses the “basic training” we all receive to prepare us for a large variety of different gospel ministries all over this country and the world. I know you have more to say, but I wanted to comment on just four statements of this post. Obviously you came into seminary with a very different perspective than mine–and that really seems to be the… Read more »
Response Part 2: Second statement: “In the entire TMS curriculum, which is 98 credit hours and approximately between 100 – 150 required books to read, not one book is written by a person of African heritage.” I’ll have to take your word for this because the ethnicity of the authors was not something I ever considered. The training at TMS was not concerned with ethnicity of individuals, but with substance of the content as it related to the curriculum. To show a problem you would need to demonstrate that professors intentionally chose books on the basis of the authors’ ethnicity.… Read more »
And there’s the crux of the matter. Does racism exist only in overt discrimination (Gabriel’s argument) or are there other ways that people of color are marginalized? Gabriel, I’d recommend listening. You’re talking past what Terrance is saying here.
“You’re talking past what Terrence is saying here.” But he didn’t make the point you’re trying to make. If there was a course about American History and it did not mention slavery or MLK, then that would be obviously marginalization. But, as I said in my comments, there was zero ethnicity-based content in the entire curriculum (save for the obvious content about Israel). Any other minority could make the same points. But the point is baseless because the curriculum is not about those things any more than it is about women’s right to vote or politics or the history of… Read more »
People of color are marginalized because Christians marginalize the mandates of the gospel.
No disagreement there.
Alan Cross,
I would not think you disagree with the substance of anything I have stated in this specific comment thread. At least you never have in the past.
No, I don’t think I would. And I don’t think Terrance would either. I think when he was saying “gospel” he was talking about the way it is used in a truncated way to just get people to Heaven. Knowing your work and knowing Terrance’s and seeing you both in action up close, I’d think y’all would line up really well. You don’t know him so I’m speaking on his behalf here and saying you’d share a similar heart.
Alan Cross, You are right. I don’t know Mr. Terrance Jones. I challenged only one statement he made in his post, this one: “It is hypocritical for Dr. MacArthur or anyone to say “just preach the gospel” thinking that will solve all issues.” I consider that statement to be dangerous, especially the last part, “thinking that will solve all issues.” It is my opinion he was careless in constructing the statement. Why do I think the statement was constructed carelessly and could be dangerous? I remember the days when the “Social Gospel” was still a strong wind sweeping through not… Read more »
Brent, i agree that people of color are marginalized in other ways than by overt racism. But here is what was said: “To hear Dr. MacArthur and Grace To You say/write narrow-minded, inconsiderate, and frankly unbiblical things about the intersection of the gospel and racism has had a profound effect on me.” That is quite overt dont you think? Now as a Christian who puts the Gospel first, how are we to deal with less than overt marginalization? Is this less-than-overt-marginalization a sin? Whose? The world’s? The world sins all the time, every day, all day long. Is it the… Read more »
Yes!! Folks would do well to search out some minority viewpoints with an open mind and they would begin to discover a very different perspective that is so needed if we’re going to have any useful conversations on race in the evangelical community. Many of the comments here are discouraging to me. I can only imagine what they and the attitudes they represent must be to minority folks in our midsts. No matter how well intentioned, these comments explaining why the author is so misguided come across as extremely condescending.
Ben,
I take it that you have reached out and have learned of these minority viewpoints. and thus know of that perspective of which you speak. If so, please explain that perspective to me.
Secondly, why would you assume some comments are condescending? What words did they use to connote that? One can disagree with another can they not, and do so without condescension?
Thanks for the contribution there Gabriel. What you wrote is particularly helpful considering the text of the original piece. I don’t see you talking past what the original author is saying at all (as Brent suggested) but rather addressing the specific claims and implications in the original piece. That’s needful here imo.
I don’t hear MacArthur saying, or any Christian say, “Just preach the Gospel, and ignore every injustice that is going on.” We should emphasize preaching the Gospel and discipleship. That is the call of the church, and if we don’t do that, no one else is going to do it. The disagreement comes when we start to talk about “justice.” That is the crux of the disagreement. If I understand MacArthur, he is not saying Christians are not to be involved in justice issues, as defined in the Bible. The concern is that the world defines “justice” in a different… Read more »
Actually, there was a MacArthur-orb commenter who said almost exactly that here. We should work INDIVIDUALLY to deal with sin in people’s lives but never work on group things. (Except abortion, I imagine).
Dave,
I think that is most of the battle.
And I think most of this can be worked out if people will talk to each other, and not past each other.
Even if we don’t end up agreeing, at least we will know what we are not agreeing about.
Dave, You know that many marriages are not 100% Christian. Few church congregations are 100% Christian. Few Christian schools or seminaries are if any. The Bible does tell us that church/congregations can do things together to promote love for our fellow humans. One example it gave was collecting money for the poor in Jerusalem. But that was more than simply speaking to the issue but actually giving of themselves to meet a basic human need or needs, Now when you preach against pornography or some other prevalent sin in our society, or racism, you are addressing only those that hear… Read more »
Do we want to return to the days of the Moral Majority? As some have commented above , who is going to decide the public social justice mandate. While a conservative, I did not agree with the Moral Majority approach. If Christians learn and practice their faith most social Biblical concerns will be answered. How much do we want the SBC to get involved in politics and telling members how to vote politically. We live in a country where if the people want to change their government policies to promote social justice, which they have, that is a political ,… Read more »
Dave Miller, would you kindly please define what you mean by “MacArthur orb”?
Former Pyro Phil Johnson, Exective Director of GTY?
Quick question, does this rejection of doing (saying?) Anything other than preaching the gospel include mentioning any political leadership?
By that principle, shouldn’t we just have suffered without complaint from 2008-2016?
Phil Johnson is often the source of many of the problems.
It is truly astounding that some among us do not understand the danger inherent in conflating social justice and the gospel.
Concern about the trajectory of the SBC is certainly warranted in light of this OP and comment thread.
It’s just justice Randall. Biblical justice. The only people calling it “social justice” are white guys who want the discussion to go away because it makes them confront ugly, uncomfortable truths about the failure of the white evangelical church to apply the Gospel to American culture.
Ryan,
What crime is being committed and who is committing it?
Names please.
The crime of being born white, Michael. I am guilty. You are guilty. The young’uns have decreed it so.
Randall,
You dont believe that.
Ryan believes that justice is not being upheld.
I would like for him to articulate what he means, namely, which crime is not being punished, and who is doing this crime.
Justice is about punishing the evil doer, and making right the wrong committed.
Thus there has to be both a crime commited and the one who committed it.
I would like to get his take on it.
Michael, you are correct if you mean I don’t believe it is a crime to be born white.
But I’ve seen the race-baiting tactics of the SJW’s too many times.
The “white guys” *are* the problem, in their estimation, because we supposedly can’t handle the truth.
Ryan, so you don’t support “white guys” calling it “social justice”?
How about “black guys” calling it “biblical justice” so they can ask for reparations?
(That’s intense sarcasm and tongue in cheek. I’m rhetorically using absurdity to illustrate the absurdity of your statement)
Seriously though, how about we stick to ideas and support of opposition of ithose ideas rather than making comments that work toward separating people by skin tone and marginalizing those with whom you disagree.
You’ll never get an answer Tarheel or Mike b/c one does not exist. Intersectional thinking has determined that privilege exists and therefore the systems of the privileged by their very existence create discrimination. The question Mike asks shows the divide. He wants an explanation for the sin problem: where it lies and who has done it. The answer isn’t there because the descriptions of sin are all individually understood from individual stories. That is why you are told to listen to minority voices. They are the marginalized and their “story” is the proof of the sin. Reject it and you… Read more »
Ryan,
RE: Michael Labate’s post
Is this true sir? Is it true that you wont answer me? That there is no answer?
What black or brown people would you like to have seen included in the 700 page American Church History Book? Serious question. I’d like to read about people you suggest that I may not be familiar with.
George Liele is someone that we should all have learned about in American Church History. He leaves the US to go as a missionary in the late 1700s, a few decades before Judson becomes the “first American Baptist missionary” when he heads to Burma. Something is missing when we celebrate a white guy doing it first, 3 decades after a Black man did it. There’s a start. And he’s just one of a few that I’ve heard/read. But what have we missed? I wonder what stories and inspirations we’ve laid aside and we’ll never put into history books because they… Read more »
Doug,
Praise God for George Liele. But most Americans do not know either of those men. I would guess that a lot of pastors do not either. Please explain to me how putting a name in a history book is going to make a minorities life better or right what ever wrong they are experiencing? Today? or Tomorrow? or Next Week?
Please explain because I do not see it as a start for anything. What is it a start of?
Michael, you just moved the goal from Charla’s question. Her question was to name someone that should have been included in the history book/history class. I named someone that should have been included in the history book. Now you want to know how anybody’s life would be made better by knowing it. It’s an entirely separate question. But in answer to yours: it won’t put food on anybody’s table. But neither does knowing how Lottie Moon was or who Adrian Rogers was. Tell me if you think Southern Baptists shouldn’t know who they are. Or how about if we just… Read more »
Doug, Sure, we can agree that a seminary shoud be truthful. Now what about the question I just gave? How is the knowing that in the past, our seminaries omitted certain facts and were untruthful with others goin to aid any one now? Are sinning because we fail to put prssure on each and every seminary that wrongly did that? Is someone going to be closer to God because some people pressures a seminary to change textbooks? If you feel called to do that, please do it and Godspeed. But my guess, and its just a guess, is that you… Read more »
I believe this whole discussion is a bit premature except for one observation. . MacArthur hasn’t finished his series and Mr. Jones hasn’t finished his series either so we aren’t entirely sure where either ends up, but it does seem initially that they are using two completely different definitions for the words “Social Justice” and may likely talk past each other as a result.
McArthur is pretty clear where he ends up Scott. He has been pretty clear for a while now. Part 2 of MacArthur is simply a rewriting of part 1.
Ryan Abernathy: You wrote that the issue is not “social justice” and that the only people using that term are white guys who want the issues of applying the Gospel to the culture to go away. I really don’t know what to make of that comment. First, it’s not just “white guys” who are using this term. Other brothers including well know social justice advocates Jemar Tisby and Eric Mason, two well known African American Christians, and numerous others use this term routinely. If you don’t know who they are, you can Google it. I suspect well known brothers in… Read more »
I have no problem with the term social justice. That is what it is. I am glad that we as Southern Baptists are finally doing social justice. It has been done by a few for a long time, but now it is permeating our denomination. I praise God that it is.
So you are saying that you are now educated and can write the book!
Awesome, Christianity needs a book like that, I doubt that it would ever be a main text, but it could certainly be a supplimental text right?
About 260 pages sounds right to start
I look forward to reading it, I have seriously been looking for such a book a long time
I hope that most of what appears to be division among us is nomenclature. People state what they believe and inference is taken about what they don’t state. For example, someone says something like, “The Gospel is the only thing that will solve social issues.” The inference is taken the person doesn’t believe in correcting injustices. The other side says, “We must preach the entire Gospel,” making reference to the church being vocal on social matters. The inference is taken that the individual means something must be added to the message of Christ’s sacrificial death, burial, bodily resurrection, and Second… Read more »
The defensive reactions you mention are because that is where the discussion goes. The question of the “entire Gospel” needs to be answered. I’m am seeing more and more people like Dr. Anthony Bradley who the other day implied (perhaps) or even directly stated that white evangelicals have never had the Gospel.
We can’t have a debate b/c we can’t agree on terms. What is oppression, racism, and the Gospel? Until that gets settled this will keep flaring up.
Dean,
It is true that two groups agree on the facts and importance of the gospel.
But there are groups that use the “Preach the gospel only” mantra to rebuke those who address issues such as racism, immigration issues, abuse, etc.
Again, respectfully, it is important to understand “preach the Gospel and don’t address issues” vs. “preach the Gospel and address issues” is not the issue. All churches address the various issues in various capacities. The dividing line is how these issues are defined and how they are addressed. The impact of secular “social justice” thinking in the broader culture has informed segments of the church on how these issues are defined and how they are addressed. The best example is to listen to some of the “social justice” Christians and see how they talk about those issues and their recommended… Read more »
Dave, being careful not read into your comment what is unintended, are you saying that some who use this mantra favor racism, abuse, etc.? I see the other side shutting down the conversation. Before J. MacArthur’s post would have been dry if printed he was attacked ad hominem. Two very prominent evangelicals embarrassed themselves with their replies. I agree in principle with most of the contributors at Voices on matters of racism, immigration, abuse, etc. I disagree with these same contributors on how we address these issues. Some say to disagree with them on how to address these matters is… Read more »
In my years at seminary and all of the books that I read, it never once occurred to me to try to determine the race of the authors.
It might be helpful for the public to know that the book Terrence Jones refers to regarding praise for Bob Jones was notoriously disliked by students and the professor. Many of us students could easily detect bias and other problems with the author, giving it a negative review. And as you might imagine, we raised these concerns to the professor. What was the response of the professor? He recognized the significant weaknesses of the book, but at that time he did not know of any better books that covered the full gamut of church history. That has since changed, and… Read more »
“I’m far from perfect.” I am not perfect either. But I am complete in Jesus. I have and daily experience completeness in Jesus. Completeness in Jesus which by its very nature and definition does not depend upon my having more or less than others, or my acceptance or rejection by others, even whether or not I receive what I feel is justice from others. Modern social justice tells people they are not complete in Jesus. Now that may well be true for the unregenerate. But it has no place in the life of the regenerated in the Messiah. It is… Read more »
Tandt says, “Modern social justice tells people they are not complete in Jesus. ” Can you substantiate that? Your last sentence defines the basis of Biblical social justice. Why shy away from the term? As James says, “Faith without works is dead.”
Lee: I can substantiate it well enough for myself: Matt. 6:31-33: “Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” 1 Tim. 6:6-8: “But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And… Read more »
so·cial jus·tice noun 1 justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society.
In other words, through political means and enforcement, social justice should make sure you and everyone else receives the full slice of pie which you are supposedly entitled to, and to which the social structure is supposedly obligated to give you.
That is in great contrast to what is taught in Scripture from the verses quoted above.
It’s a shame that this discussion is in public where non-believers will have another reason to say “see, hypocrites, racist Christians”. Would have been better if Brother Jones would have gathered the material, even making a point to identify reform Christians of other races and ethnicities, and presented it to the TMU professor or department head for inclusion in their history course. A selling point would be as these young church planters are sent out, many to urban areas, they can reach the mostly armenian Christians and introduce them to fellow reform Christians of the same race or ethnicity. That… Read more »
[…] Imagine that…being in such a state of anger over how whitewashed your seminary education is that you say things that flirt with the possibility of getting you kicked out of school. (Pastor Terrance Jones, “The Truths That Dr. MacArthur’s Social Justice Series Won’t Change“) […]