Often, we get advanced warning about big events but yesterday’s decision came as a complete shock to us here. I knew that the trustees had received a report on the Washington Post article during their meeting and decided to wait until they were able to get all the facts before acting on it, but I had no idea that the action would come this quickly and this decisively. In the last year the two icons of the Conservative Resurgence, Judge Pressler and Dr. Patterson, have taken hits to their reputations and legacies. I would have never believed that the tenure of Dr. Patterson would end with an immediate and summary dismissal. It is shocking.
I would like to make some brief observations about the situation.
Let me be clear. I have been neither a great fan nor a passionate opponent of Dr. Patterson. I could wish that he had retired within the last couple of years before all of this happened. But, as time went on, things have changed.
1. Dr. Patterson is not a victim.
Many of his ardent supporters have painted this as if it were a “get Dr. Patterson” vendetta. Certainly, it was for some who drove the social media campaign. Ben Cole, the driving force behind much of this, as the “Baptist Blogger” has been a critic of Dr. Patterson since the early days of blogging. It is easy to pass this off as some kind of grudge. God will judge motives but I have yet to find great factual inaccuracies in Cole’s accusations. Shooting the messenger is not the way to go here.
Besides, it was not bloggers who got Dr. Patterson in trouble. Declining FTE enrollment at SWBTS and deep financial issues have been reported. There were many issues on the table during that 13-hour meeting – issues none of us knows or likely will know. The Trustees did not meet to deal with accusations made on social media. There were substantive issues
Dr. Patterson’s responses which alternated between defiant, defensive, and what seemed like genuinely apologetic were often less than helpful. The WaPo article was the last straw but the problems ran much deeper.
Trying to pass this off as a blogger’s vendetta is simplistic – an exercise in avoidance.
2. The Trustees did their work.
I am not sure there were a dozen people satisfied with the action of the SWBTS Trustees at their previous meeting. For reasons that perhaps will come out in time (it tends to happen) they ended up with the President Emeritus solution to the problem. Those who supported Dr. Patterson were not happy because he was removed from office. Those who did not support him were unhappy because they felt the “punishment didn’t fit the crime.”
I am going to add two and two and hopefully get four. The Washington Post story was published during the Trustees meeting and it was reported to them, but it was not the focus of their meeting. They had a full agenda with a lot of issues to discuss. It would have been irresponsible, would it not, to take decisive action on the basis of a news report? Sarah Pulliam Bailey is a great reporter but they did the right thing to verify the facts first before they took action. Once they got their ducks in a row, they acted.
I am not claiming they are perfect. There are likely valid criticisms of the SWBTS trustees. But the trustees have far more information than any of us. It is easy to declare our outrage or to substitute our wisdom for theirs. But in our system, we elect trustees and we have to trust them to do their work.
All in all, it seems these men and women were working for us and seeking to do what was best.
3. The Executive Committee acted within its power.
I have seen questions about how the Executive Committee was able to dismiss Dr. Patterson after the full board reached its decision. Evidently, the ability to dismiss was always within the power of the EC. Dr. Patterson asked the full board to meet and deal with the issue.. But, when the new information came in and fully confirmed about the incident at SEBTS, the Executive Committee had the authority to act.
This is my understanding of the dynamics and I will take instruction if this is incorrect.
4. A good hire now is essential.
A commenter named Josh Parsons last night pointed out that the last 3 presidents of SWBTS have left under less than ideal circumstances. We need to pray for Dr. Bingham and for the Search Team and for whoever they hire. They need to get someone who will be a solid, forward-thinking leader. I assume that they will hire someone on the less Calvinistic end of the SBC spectrum, and I have no problem with that. But the time for rancor and antagonism over this is gone and I hope that the hire will be someone from the less strident and more cooperative non-Calvinistic circles. The new president should respect where we’ve been but be concerned with setting a new direction for the seminary.
5. We have a lot of work to do as a denomination on the role of women.
Obviously, those who abandoned the biblical teachings of complementarian are pouncing on this and other issues to say we need to do that as well. But abuse of women is not endemic to complementarianism nor is it absent among egalitarianism. Egalitarianism is not the answer because we are a people of the Book and that is not built on sound hermeneutics.
But we have a LOT of work to do on how we recognize the dignity and worth of women, how we give them their proper place to express their gifts in the church, and how we hold men accountable in the church. Dr. Jason Allen’s resolution is a good starting place but it is only a starting place. I’m a little bit weary of “task forces” because they seldom change anything but maybe we need an SBC task force on the role of women in the church (and for the love of all that is holy – NOT made up of all white men!).
This is our next great challenge! Holding on a biblical theology of complementarianism and abandoning an unbiblical patriarchy that treats women as second class.
6. Pray for Dr. and Mrs. Patterson.
The time for recrimination is over. Dr. Patterson has paid the price for his misdeeds. I doubt he is destitute but he is certainly suffering consequences. Now is the time to lay down our weapons and to pray for the Pattersons.
7. Dr. Patterson, I assume, will NOT preach at the Convention?
I have heard nothing definite on this, but I assume that after this Dr. Patterson will back out. He must not be the convention preacher now. Hopefully, in the next day or two we will hear word that he has given up that position. It has to happen.
I am a little nervous to even ask this, but what say you?
Let me make something clear. Discussion is permissible but there is what appears to be an organized “talking points” strategy by some defenders of Dr. Patterson that involves attacking the lady who was raped at SEBTS. Much of this comes from sbcissues blog.
Links to that site will be taken down and attacks on a rape victim not be permitted.
This PP mess is like an SBC volcano erupting here and there, sometimes expectedly and sometimes not. BP referenced a PP supporter, wife of a former staff member loyalist, who has a trove of documents from PP’s SEBTS era. Perhaps they just apperared but these materials are not what a former staff wife would have in her recipe box. She is being fed this stuff. If we’re going to have manhood and womanhood in the SBC then let’s see some manhood here. Let the male principals make their own case and not underlings or female third parties. The general thrust… Read more »
Well stated. I read the post and also wondered how she came to have those personal letters and notes between PP and the victim. Curious, to say the least, as well as unusual.
Agree, she was fed the info. No other way she has it.
Jeff,
Okay, who fed her the info?
Was it legal for them to do so?
Was it ethical of them to do so?
If no to either of those questions, then…
Was it Christian for them to do so?
All valid questions Mike that need to be answered
Did not realize the comment section there had gone haywire. I dont read the blog honestly, just saw the letter was posted there.
Jeff,
I dont need them answered.
if one wants to defend PP, then they might need answer them though.
Mike, if hope the much needed clarification offered by the SW board tonight would help with that. That’s the point I’ve been trying to make all along, in order for one side or the other to finally acknowledge things, more of the truth behind the situation was needed. That happened tonight
More good words from you, Dave. Thank you! As far as your last question, I don’t know if he will preach at the convention or not but he has already informed the SBCAL (Southern Baptist Conference of Associational Leaders) of which I am part, that he will not be speaking at our event as previously scheduled due to the harm his appearing may cause our organization. I hope this is a good indicator that he will step aside and yield the convention sermon to the alternate.
“Dr. Patterson, I assume, will NOT preach at the Convention?”
If he shows up, is there a parliamentary rule of order for the messengers to vote to remove him from the program before his scheduled talks?
I believe the SWBTS trustees acted prudently. Certainly, the report about Dr. Patterson’s cover-up at Southeastern Seminary was relevant to their deliberations on May 22nd, but they were wise not to act until they could confirm the report. Once they ascertained its accuracy, they acted swiftly.
I was referring to Dr. Patterson’s removal from the program at SBC-Dallas, not his removal from SWBTS.
Unless he voluntarily declines to preach at the convention, the messengers must be the ones to remove him, should they so desire, since they are the ones who in 2017 approved him as the preacher.
Let us pray he does not press that and bows out gracefully
In all honesty, I was shocked when I saw this news on my Twitter feed last night. I had assumed the action of the trustees last week was it, over and done. I believe it is the right decision, though I cannot say I am glad for it. It is a great sorrow that this is the last act in Dr. Patterson’s career, and I continue to grieve for the women who cried out for help and were not heard. I pray that hope and healing are on the horizon for all who have been impacted by and continue to… Read more »
“I’ve gotten used to the fact that there are many men in our denomination more concerned with fencing the pulpit than helping women joyfully and freely walk into their God-given callings. I’m encouraged that there now seem to be many who are calling for change and a sober revaluation.”
Wow. great comment, thanks Leigh.
“Fencing the pulpit” is a quotable phrase! In my 50 years in SBC life I have known and know many women leaders and speakers. Few if any aspired to be pastors. All wanted to use their gifts and callings to build the kingdom. When we left SWBTS fifteen years ago, I had just received my MA Missiology. It was three men- Dr Mike Barnett, Larry Cox and John Brady who knew my passion for unreached women and created an advocacy position at IMB for me. I served nine years and my husband Ken kissed me and sent my off on… Read more »
This is not a time for rejoicing; but for sober reflection. There are so many intersecting issues that accompany this tragedy and discussion of these should come later. No one in leadership is without oversight. Jesus warns us that hidden attitudes and deeds would be shouted from the rooftops. Social Media is the 21st century rooftop, for good or ill. We should be repentant and careful. It is time to pray, it is time to repent, rather than manning the barricades.
As an MRE (83) and M.Div (94) graduate of SWBTS and the father of a female M.Div graduate (04), I long ago stopped holding the seminary at the same level of respect as I did when I attended there. My daughter felt a shift in the tone toward women in ministry when Dr. Patterson assumed the reigns of the seminary and was glad that she started her degree plan before he arrived. While never desiring to pastor, she wanted to be thoroughly equipped in theology to teach, write and serve in the church. As I wrote on your earlier Facebook… Read more »
The preaching spot needs to be resolved
Unfortunately, there were problems during your time at SWBTS, too. An married and older professor’s hand was lightly slapped over unwanted sexual advances toward a female student. She was directed to leave school and finish her coursework at home. (It wasn’t me.) I can still become too enraged about it, especially considering the now deceased prof’s name lives on with special distinction. What is happening in my soul these days is a time of reckoning for me. I could have spoken up earlier. but believed the victim herself should do so. I still believe that. But the ‘what if’s’ plague… Read more »
Suzanne, I’m not so naive as to believe that there were not problems when I was at SWBTS. It does grieve me to hear of that abuse and handling of the situation. The further abuse of the victim and the sweeping under the rug the offense of the perpetrator must end! The failure to remain humble and accountable at whatever level of spiritual attainment and position one may reach is critical. We never “out grow” our propensity to sin and therefore need to be in relationships with those who will ask us the hard questions and call us out when… Read more »
I am sure you are not naive and I didn’t mean to say that. Sorry! Thanks for your comments about being in accountable relationships. This is so important. As we wait we shoes, we pray.
Thanks, no apology needed!
Those of us who lack complete information on these incidents leading to Dr. Patterson’s firing should probably keep quiet about it. Assuming the trustees acted faithfully, wisely, and with good will, having complete information, we should trust their decision, however painful it may be to our hearts. Those who are using this very grievous tragedy as a rallying cry for their particular cause should be ashamed. To link Dr. Patterson’s errors in judgment with his biblical theology of gender roles is to confuse and conflate two separate issues.
Russ: These particular “causes” and PP’s dismissal are one in the same. No shame here. It was his theology of gender roles which were and are not biblical, that brought him to the point of yesterday.
Debbie, you wrote: “. . . his theology of gender roles which were and are not biblical . . .” Can you expand on this? I thought PP held to a mainstream, complementarian view.
In general, whenever someone jumps to using a tragedy such as this to trumpet their agenda I find it sad.
Dave: I can agree with that if used in ways not helpful to the victims or women in general. If it would be for the benefit of the victims and to promote change for women in our denomination, not only have I used it but I would do it again and again as this should be the lesson we get from all of this. This is not and I repeat not about taking someone down, he did that himself. It is rejoicing that the Exec. comm. of trustees did the right thing, and this should be a model to all… Read more »
I disagree with both the SBC EU and the trustees…I refer you to Norman Geisler’s article on the six reasons why this was wrong…http://normangeisler.com/why-firing-paige-patterson-was-a-mistake/
John, thanks for including this link. Dr. Geisler raises some thought provoking questions.
Geisler shows ignorance of the facts. He is loud but wrong.
Geisler also defended Ergun Caner. To quote a famous, past, seminary president. “That dog just won’t hunt.”
That article is a complete mess. Pertinent facts are ignored. Details are incorrectly recounted. He sounds like he’s unaware of the polity or process involved. And he calls for a bronze statue of Patterson to be erected in Nashville?!
Here is a link to Geisler’s passionate defense of Ergun Caner. http://normangeisler.com/in-support-of-dr-ergun-caner/
Being defended by Geisler may not be tops on your resume.
Does anyone know if Geisler was privy to all that the EC knew? I’m guessing he wasn’t.
As a graduate of Southwestern, I think the focus should immediately turn to what is necessary for Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary to become what Southern Baptists, and the greater Christian community in the world, need it to be. Prayer is the first thing to be done, but I am concerned for the students who are there now, and for the school as an institution. It has had to straddle conflicting interests among its constituency for a long time. It has suffered not only from rifts in the SBC, but from the split among Texas Baptists, which once made up a… Read more »
Help the next leader of SWBTS out, Dr. Interim and/or trustees.
Get. Rid. Of. The. Stained. Glass. Shrine.
I didn’t know about those things until a couple months ago. Man, they’re creepy.
Besides that, let it be a lesson learned that we shouldn’t enshrine our leaders in stained glass.
I see that the XComm decision was unanimous. Bart Barber is on the 12 member committee. I commend him.
I do not know if that is true. He was on the EC but he may have gone off.
Baptist Press reports the names of the EC members in today’s “reaction” story. http://bpnews.net/50996/patterson-firing-met-with-strong-reaction-cancellations
He was named in the BP story today. “[Southwestern spokesman Charles] Patrick said the executive committee comprises board chairman Kevin Ueckert (Texas), vice chairman Connie Hancock (Ohio), David Maron (Mississippi), Bart Barber (Texas), Jeff Crook (Georgia), Jamie Green (Texas), Danny Johnson (Arkansas), Philip Levant (Texas), Mark Mucklow (Arizona), John Rayburn (Texas), George Tynes (Pennsylvania) and Don Whorton (Texas).”
I am sure BP got it right
To the Trustees
I hope that an external financial audit is in order. Please, please do this, so that the SBC can believe that it is truly a new day and that there is nothing else to hide
Please do the right thing
If you read the 15 page defense of Dr P by his COS’s wife…you may find something of interest there. Page 15. Although she is using this to defend PP, she sure didn’t choose wisely with the picture she posted. If anything, it implicates her husband and Dr P among two others. And it wasn’t public knowledge-but it is now. I can’t inagine it will go well for her.
Whatever is discovered regarding the cover up at SEBTS needs to be fully revealed when a proper investigation is completed.
Patterson simply cannot preach at the convention and I pray and do believe he’s wise enough to realize this. He shouldn’t even speak for the committee report he chaired.
Sadly, I think this is just the beginning of MeToo moments that will be revealed
It is clear that those who have responsibilities to deal with those who have acted unbecomingly are doing their duty. Today, it appears some re-calibrating needs to take place, so we have to give attention to the issues. Let’s not labor long here in the winter barracks lest we grow unfit for the battle. Let’s get our gospel tools sharpened and prepped and get that gospel banner back on our shoulders and send it on the field with the vanguard.
A seminary president should at least be able to do two things: recruit money and recruit students.
Any godly man with leadership skills who is academically qualified and able to do those things should be hired.
The person’s soteriology should be irrelevant.
The SBC should also be intentional about hiring an African-American or Latino.
SWBTS is the second most diverse SBC seminary in student body and the most diverse in faculty. It is time for the SBC to make good on the claim to have more minorities in leadership.
A Hispanic president for SWBTS makes a lot if sense
Just an FYI, but a blog post by Sharayah Colter, wife of Patterson’s Chief of Staff, is now on the web. In it she debuts some of the charges against Patterson with supposed email documentation. Even has correspondence between the rape victim at SE and Patterson with her thanking him for his leadership and help with her situation. Also disputes the mishandling of the rape accusation at SW, again with documentation. Now, she’s clearly an insider with her husband being who he is, so if the Patterson’s have documentation of these events, she’d have a clear way of getting it.… Read more »
It’s a losing strategy anyway to go after the victim. She released a 15 page doc. Let’s see it. Odd, some documents are missing but looks like a bunch end up with this lady to use on PP’s behalf. Could get ugly…
Yep. I think all of us know this though, there are two sides to every story. Patterson’s hasn’t been heard yet, but it looks like this may be the beginning. I’m wondering if a possible NDA may have been voided with the complete dismissal? If Patterson feels as though he’s been truly wronged here with what may be incomplete or even false information, he seems like the type to fight that though. Here’s where I am. I want the truth whatever it is, and I want complete sunlight. It is to a point where I’m not sure what to believe,… Read more »
JeffP: I will tell you right now that this is a typical Paige Patterson move and why he was let go. He is now using other people who are loyal to him to attack the victim. It’s his MO, but this time Southern Baptist women will band together just as we did signing the open letter and we will not stand for this. I will not stand for it as a Southern Baptist, a Christian, and a woman. If he is smart he will not do this, he will stop while he’s behind.
Debbie, I dont claim to know the truth here. I do know Mrs. Colter is a PP insider. I also know she has just provided more documentation than anyone involved in this case. If PP is indeed guilty of wrongdoing, then the case needs to be made. That’s what this missive from PP’s camp just declared. It’s time for complete sunlight and complete truth, whatever it is
Having read what Ms Colter shared I am beyond sickened and infuriated. As if those documents from a rape victim prove anything to PPs benefit? Rape and abuse victims typically attribute shame to themselves just as this one has.
If PP has a defense to make, fine, but attacking victims is incredibly stupid. BAD. MOVE.
Jeff, The story breaks while the Board is deliberating [him stepping down from the presidency]. Why didn’t PP come clean then? Why didn’t he offer up his story to them then, or at least tell his side and remark that documentation will follow soon? Maybe he thought he was in the clear with his new title, new home, and new salary, but still he should have given his side of the story to the trustees. That seems like a prudent and a reasonable thing to do doesn’t it? Second, the trustees heard the news and it seems like they investigated… Read more »
I’m going simply by Colter’s account here, but according to her the boards time with PP in the room was pretty brief and he only responded to their questions. Was the question even asked? Or did they table it and deal with an already full agenda? Thus is why we need absolute sunlight. Here’s where I am, and there are plenty like me. If PP is guilty of covering up rape allegations he got what he deserved. I’m with those on this blog who have stated that. If these more major allegations regarding the rape have holes in them though,… Read more »
The evidence is still not crystal clear, so there yet room for speculation based on what we do know. So, I believe PP used the “break her down” tactic back in 2003 at SEBTS. The victim’s letter in Colter’s missive was likely written or dictated by PP. Megan’s signature might have been elicited while she was under some sort of duress (like a promise of probation instead of expulsion). The tone of the letter is more that of an abuser rather than a victim. Rest assured, any act designed to “break her down” is most certainly abuse and here it… Read more »
” In any event, there is no credible doubt that the EC properly made the correct decision.”
None. Absolutely none. You are right, Ray. Those guys, no doubt, made a hard decision. One that I believe each and every one of them wish they had not had to have made. Nonetheless, they made the right decision, and frankly, I, for one, think it very narrow and ill-willed for people to cast aspersions upon their integrity in this matter.
Jeff: I have searched the internet using her name and I for the life of me can’t find this documentation. But….I do know that the boxes that contained information on this rape are missing from Southeastern. It was discovered when the victim asked for these records because of the documentation they contained. But they were gone, the left when Paige left in 2003 shortly after the rape happened. Imagine that. Now he and whoever have had 15 years to alter, shred and who know what else these documents. There is no police record because although Paige said he was going… Read more »
My question is this: Are you men willing to possibly live the resolutions concerning women you have praised? Are you willing to protect Megan Lively from attacks? You may get a chance to see if these resolutions are just words or if you really mean them in action. I don’t believe anything happens by chance or accident. I believe God orchestrates everything. What will this reveal about Southern Baptists if it comes to it. I pray it doesn’t. I would love a quiet convention this year.
Debbie, go to [Editor: redacted]. He has the entire letter and documents posted
Ha ha. I just saw this. I must admit this is the first time a minister has told me to go to …… well, I am sure some have under their breath, but not to my face. Kudos for at least being honest. :)Look I know and understand this is hard for some. Very hard for some, I went through the same thing 8 years ago with those who supported Ergun Caner. I would react the same way if the shoe was on the other foot, I’m sure.
And I don’t believe the rape is being questioned, just what happened after it
Debbie: I read here regularly and comment infrequently. I’ve read many of your statements but this one demands that I say something: “Now he and whoever have had 15 years to alter, shred and who know what else these documents.” To even suggest this, without evidence (and you offer none), is just wrong. I’m not defending Dr. Patterson; I am fine with whatever happens to him. Frankly, if he hid evidence of a rape, then he should be charged with whatever crime might be appropriate under North Carolina law (assuming the relevant statute of limitations has not passed). I am… Read more »
Amen Gus! Whatever the truth is, that is what is needed!
I’ve seen the documents released. They do not rebut Megan’s account, in fact, they support what she said. She was shamed and made to feel like it was her fault. The letters reflect that scenario. The attempt to discredit her is shameful.
Then Brent, for the sake of putting this matter to bed, release the goods on PP. I’m not discrediting her account when I say this, but right now it’s her word against his. SE has requested missing documents from SW. I hope they find them. If they prove her right let us see them. If he’s guilty of an actual crime I hope he’s prosecuted. But there is a lack of trust in our convention right now beyond anything I’ve seen in my 15 years, and only the complete truth, whatever it is, can remotely begin to rebuild that. I… Read more »
Jeff P., I think I can safely say that each and every one of the SWBTS Executive Committee have an undying love for Dr. Patterson. Not one of that group could be proven guilty of harboring animosity toward their president. I am more than confident that before they made their final decision on this matter they weighed every piece of evidence carefully. Ultimately, they came to what is most likely one of the hardest decisions any one of them have ever made in their lives. In addition, although this was a highly publicized situation regarding Dr. Patterson for no other… Read more »
Thanks CB. Sadly, I dont think that helps the overall tenor of things though. If legalities are involved though I get that. But if Patterson presses this, as this Colter blog makes it appear he might, the truth may be seen eventually. I do believe that’s the only thing that can even come close to seeing the division lessened
Thank you Brent. As a Christian counselor licensed in the state of Texas with a specialty in trauma resolution. I can completely concur with your statement.
Jeff, the case WAS made – to the trustees. Mrs. Colter would NOT be aware if trustee information and seems wholly unaware of it. She is biased to be sure.
But the trustees did their job and took their action. They owe no public accounting to anyone else.
The Trustees know the truth and not Ms. Colter
Dave, then whatever that truth is needs to come out. No doubt Colter is biased, so are Cole and Burleson. What me and many others desire is for whatever the whole truth is, let it be known. Otherwise, this is going to continue. Put it to bed one way or another. If that means Patterson is shamed even further, so be it. If it means he’s vindicated, so be it. This back and forth though will simply deepen the lack of trust and ever widening divide. If Patterson be guilty let his defenders see the ugly truth. If innocent, let… Read more »
Jeff P – I applaud your efforts to get to the bottom of this. But I think what Bro. Dave posted is going to prevail. The Trustees were entrusted with assessing PP’s performance. They did. They acted. Obviously, I’m not an insider and I wished things would have turned out differently. But I don’t think they responded to external pressure or mere optics. I think they had evidence in hand that warranted their action.
Jeff, you’ve said your opinion, several times now. Dave has said that’s enough. No need to keep repeating yourself.
If we are to believe the Trustee’s timeline (and there really is no reason not to at this point), when getting the WashPo story the morning of the initial trustee meeting, they made the decision not to act on it at that point, and rather do some investigation first. The initial removal for office, and the gifting of status, retirement pay, and housing was made based on the other issues at hand, and not the incident at SEBTS. After a week of investigation, (during which one would assume Dr Patterson was asked for his side and any evidence that would… Read more »
According to her he’s in Germany and wasn’t asked. He’s with her husband. This is clear as mud right now.
Thus, Mrs Colter is suggesting that the EC practiced intentional misconduct in their handling of Dr Patterson’s dismissal. That is an extremely inflammatory insinuation, and I pray people think and consider what is best for the SBC as a whole before they continue down that path.
SV, what is best for the SBC is for whatever the truth is, let it be fully shown. Wherever it lands
One more time. The Trustees discerned the truth and acted. YOU are not the arbiter of justice in this and no one is going to tell you what happened.
The truth came out in full and the trustees acted on it. Enough.
Dave, and that does nothing but widen the divide. 12 of the 40 Trustees made this decision, not the whole board. They had the right to do so I believe. But if you believe the whole board is on board with this, you are fooling yourself. They are split just like this convention is. They were not consulted, only informed per BP. We are our own worst enemy when it comes to just letting the whole truth, even if it’s ugly, simply be known. If PP continues to press this, maybe it will all have to come out. But maybe… Read more »
So Dave just a question here for sake of discussion…of what you write here is true, why then all the uproar last week when the trustees made their decision? They acted on what they had and this place (along with social media) went nuts parsing and debating it. No one said “the trustees acted and that’s enough.” No one said “they owe no public accounting.” As a matter of fact, plenty called for a public accounting. Just curious why the change in tone? And to be transparent- it’s simply a question, not an ulterior motive, not throwing a stone.
There’s a significant difference between commenting, evaluating, discussing, criticizing and what Jeff is demanding here – that the content of the meeting be made public. There are legal and ethical reasons they may not be able to do that. I have no problem with them releasing whatever they see fit, but if they can’t release the information, it’s ridiculous to go on saying the SBC can’t move on until they do.
And if there are legal issues, I get that Brent. CB pointed that out. I’m not saying the convention can’t move on, right now, I’m saying it won’t, barring a move from God. I’m new to the SBC game compared to many here, only 15 years. I dont come from a background of being SBC in my mother’s womb, so I still look at it as an outsider in many ways. And that outsider says we’re really screwed up right now. More so than at any point in my tenure. I’ve never seen the level of distrust, disdain, distortion in… Read more »
That’s exactly what they did to Russell Dilday.
I have to ask: what kind of position was Mrs. Colter in to have access to that private correspondence? Wouldn’t those letters and emails be protected under FERPA?
Seriously asking. I know there are lawyers here who might be able to provide insight.
Her husband is one of PP’s inner circle. I think he was “chief of Staff”.
That’s my understanding, too, Tarheel_Dave. If that’s her only connection, then she had no business accessing student records and private correspondence. Her blog post could end up doing both her and her cause more harm than good.
Reading between the lines, I assume these are what she managed to gather from the Patterson correspondence ‘archives,’ taken from SEBTS, and now housed at SWBTS. One of her complaints is about the new locks on an apartment with files and CR papers.
Exactly
Repost: If there was any doubt about whether Paige Patterson deserved to be terminated, this statement from the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary trustees makes clear the decision was right. This excerpt is especially disturbing: “In addition, as previously disclosed, a female student at SWBTS reported to Dr. Patterson that she had been raped in 2015. Police were notified of that report. But in connection with that allegation of rape, Dr. Patterson sent an email (the contents of which were shared with the Board on May 22) to the Chief of Campus Security in which Dr. Patterson discussed meeting with the… Read more »
Dave, I agree with everything you said except Point 6. We certainly need to pray for the Patterson family. I don’t question that. But you said, and I quote, “The time for recrimination is over. Dr. Patterson has paid the price for his misdeeds.” I respectfully disagree. To my knowledge (and I admit that I may have overlooked it if it did happen), Dr. Patterson has never once apologized to the Mrs. Lively. Dr. Patterson has never publicly repented for helping to cover up a rape. Finally, I’m not sure about statutes of limitation, but Dr. Patterson could be culpable… Read more »
Non-lawyer speculation about “civil” and “criminal” charges is neither fair nor likely accurate. Even if there is or was any bases for legal action for allegedly giving advise to an otherwise legally-competent adult, there are obvious statute of limitation issues. North Carolina has a two-year statute of limitations for misdemeanors (N.C. Gen Stat. Ch. 15 Sec. § 15-1). and a three-year statute of limitations on civil personal injury actions (N.C. Gen. Stat. sec. 1-52).
“Back fence” speculating about legal matters with neither evidence nor actual knowledge of applicable law does not reflect well on the Body of Christ.
Would “conspiracy” extend the statute of limitations?
Virginia has no statute of limitations on felonies – what about NC?
Potentially Destroying evidence that relates to a crime? He had better produce those documents. Quickly, I would think
1. Destroying evidence potentially
2. Theft of evidence
3. Fraud
4. Failure to report the crime of rape
5. Intimidation
6. Lying
7. Cover- up
And that does not include common christian graces of compassion, love, honor, the golden rule etc. not to mention many innocent people who have suffered. Ex: Dr Shawn
Seriously, this should break all of our hearts
And in the interest of fairness Bill, shouldn’t the charges against him need to be shown to be true? I do believe with this latest info from PP’s camp he’s going to fight for his name. If he’s guilty, let him be shown to be so. If he’s not, what then? Thus is the system we have. Both sides get their say. Let us pray that whatever the truth is God reveals it
Are you the judge, Jeff? The Trustees made an informed decision.
Dave is right here. You keep saying evidence needs to be presented. It’s likely the trustees are prohibited from releasing some of the information. They have no responsibility to present their case or reasons publicly. They are charged with the well-being of the school. Now if they are able to, and choose to do so, I welcome more information being brought to light. But to act like the case can’t be decided until we all can see the details is not accurate.
I firmly believe the trustees did right thing in cutting all times with Dr Patterson. Let the courts handle the rest, respect the rape victim and leave the SBC and SWBTS alone to move forward. The enrollment at SWBTS has already dramatically declined enough.
Trustee boards are able to make ill-advised decisions as surely as individuals, companies, Congress, or any other group! They are not infallible! Not saying they were wrong, but it is certainly not impossible to sway a few opinions with the forceful opinions of a few strong minded individuals.
Guys like Jeff P are why closing comments is an attractive option.
Dave – IMO, that would be an overreaction. He seems to respond cogently to counterarguments.
Dave, all I want is to know the truth. That’s all. So do a bunch of others who really don’t have a dog in this fight one way or another but are sickened by how the whole convention is acting and being dragged down in the mud. Let sunlight shine and let’s move past this
Jeff, you need to understand that boards of trustees must be circumspect about commenting in regard to a personnel matter. The person who was fired and friends can say anything, but the board, under advice of legal counsel, has to be silent, even though that may invite criticism. I’ve served on a board that made personnel decisions, and folks in the organization said, “Why did you do that? That makes no sense.” However, we were privy to information that we could not share. I’m guessing that the seminary’s attorney has advised the Executive Committee of the SWBTS trustees about what… Read more »
Dr. Paterson has said numerous times that legal action before a secular court should never happen for fear an unsaved judge or jury member might be stopped from getting saved….. So why is anyone concerned with any possibility of legal action from PP? If he files a lawsuit he’s going against his very own advice and comments over the years. Comments he’s doggedly stood by through this whole process. So is the argument now that it’s OK for PP to contend that a rape victim or an abused wife should not involve civil authorities – Bur HE can to “defend… Read more »
Dave, there are plenty of instances of people who preach there should be no lawsuits among believers, but then when the time actually comes they’re quick to go to court. I’ve been threatened with a lawsuit before by a notorious watch blogger who railed against Ergun Caner going to court. He didn’t like something I said and the lawsuit threats came out. Screenshots to prove it. All that to say just because someone preaches not to go to court, doesn’t mean they won’t sue.
Oh, I know. It would be quite ironic though if he were to sue though – don’t you think? I personally think that the passage where Paul speaks of this he is not precluding all lawsuits a believer might file – but rather frivolous ones and the filing of lawsuits without first and studiously attempting to bring peaceful and Christian resolution. He also is not precluding civil authority intervention in criminal matters. I lean toward Christian arbitration (with both sides agreeing to the binding of the ruling if necessary) in cases where Christians are dealing with Christians should civil legal… Read more »
Patterson may not agree with my analysis, but if the Church fails to provide an adequate private remedy for dispute resolution, going to court may be the only reasonable option. Christian dispute resolution, as with all other private dispute resolution methods (mediation, arbitration, etc.), requires all parties to agree to and adhere to the process. That being said, I have no expectation that Patterson will sue anyone (except perhaps with to get his stuff back or possibly over the pension issue) and I fully expect he will vigorously contest all suits against him. For context, Title IX of the Education… Read more »
We better get our house in order,if we Plan to win the loss.If we want our young people to attend our schools we must do a better job.
A few thoughts about the SBCIssues info: 1. FERPA may apply to the information revealed; 2. Using the wife of your aide to reveal this info is cowardly—if you have something to say, then man up; 3. The “truth” of the information provided should have been made known to the trustees for consideration; 4. The “truth” of the information is worded in such a way so as to shame the real victim; 5. How in the name of all that is right does the wife of an aide have access to such information? My only regret in all this is… Read more »
Dale, you are exactly right on all 5 points. Thank you.
Wow. I didn’t realize I was a 5-pointer……
LOL
Ha!
In the end, we are all 5 pointers
Well-said
This attack us shameful. It should have resulted in the immediate dismissal of her husband.
There was a lady, Scarlett something, who took these talking points from sbcissues and started directly attacking the 2003 victim on Twitter. I mean, direct, evil, shameful attacks. Satanic stuff. And she was belligerent and proud of her evil.
Bob Hadley used to run that site. I assume he still does.
He does. Though the Florida Baptist Convention website lists his church’s 2017 CP giving total as $0.00, and he boisterously cut all IMB funding in protest to David Platt’s presidency, so I’m not sure why he is still weighing in on “SBC issues.”
Scarlett Clay……yeah, she’s been particularly active in the discussion, all while claiming to have no personal stake other than a desire for truth. I’m not sure which truth it is that she seeks.
Her attacks were vile
I couldn’t even continue reading her non-sense. How can one shame a rape victim and believe that what they are doing is right? I thought all of this would go away, however, I believe Mohler is right. I, unfortunately, think the loss of power is going to expose more and more sin. Hope I am wrong, but I still in a couple weeks the convention will be a spectacular spectacle.
I looked her up to see what she’s about. She’s the director of Ratio Christi at UT Austin. That’s an organization dedicated to bring Christian apologetics to bear in the life and culture of universities across the nation. She’s also a Christian apologetics student at Biola. I happen to have studied Christian apologetics at SWBTS 15 years ago—it was my major in the MATh program. What she is engaging in has nothing to do with Christian apologetics. I wouldn’t even call it Christian.
Yet another elephant in this room is the subject of feelings of some SBC women about other SBC women, and what counts for being a good woman. This runs deeper than boys vs. girls.
Jon,
Sorry, but I for one am not understanding your meaning regarding this “elephant”…..might you kindly elaborate?
Tarheel_Dave, just behind our (public) debate is a set of ingrained ideas of proper feminine behavior and what sexual activity without consent looks like. The battle lines are not neatly drawn between men and women, or even comps and egalitarians. I suspect Dr. Patterson can find quiet, firm support from many matriarchs for the way he handled the Lively facts, beyond Scarlett and Mrs. Colton. And I’ve heard far more criticism of Beth Moore from SBC women than men; they just don’t usually broadcast it on social media. I would disagree even if a female version of President Patterson made… Read more »
I don’t see the issue as men vs women. But it does have a lot to do with expectations/roles and the treatment of women. I suspect there are many women who would support and agree with PP. Many who have been raised in SBC churches or in similar culture have been taught this way, and often it’s is upheld by tradition or the way scripture is presented to them. Spiritual leaders (even those without the power and position of PP) are respected and by many are not questioned. In many places, questioning is considered giving into liberalism/feminism and social justice… Read more »
Feelings don’t trump truth. It doesn’t work that way.
This seems to be a huge gap in the discussion: The seminary trustees have no incentive to unduly throw someone under the bus. They are SWBTS trustees for a reason. They are not “at odds” with Patterson. For them to move like this, and for the XComm to act so decisively, we must trust that it gave them no joy to do what they did.
Exactly.
Dave, you said, “Dr. Patterson is not a victim.” I respectfully disagree. I think he is a victim of today’s mentality that says “divorce is sometimes approved by God.” Dr. Patterson would never say divorce is a Biblical option, and that makes people feel uneasy (because it implies that they, if they sought a divorce, or their loved one, if their loved one sought a divorce, committed a sin in initiating a divorce, and nobody wants to be told they’ve sinned when they felt like they had no choice by to seek a divorce, and when they’re still suffering from… Read more »
Your third to last paragraph regarding Megan Lively is one of the sickest things I have ever read on this or any other blog. I’m not sure who you are or where you come from but I pray that no woman who has been raped or molested ever had to come to you for mercy, grace, or counsel.
You sir need to come to a place of deep repentance and remorse in regards to those statements. To blame a rape victim for the actions of her attacker is heinous.
1) Megan admitted that she sinned.
2) Would you say that Dorothy Patterson is like Megan in that she is suffering wrongfully for someone else’s actions?
3) Do you agree with the Bible in that a woman can cause a man to stumble?
4l You jumped to the wrong conclusions about my beliefs about rape victims.
Yes, Dorothy is suffering because of the actions of another – namely – her husband.
Ryan, you are overly kind. Mr. Migliacci’s entire comment is absurd, shallow of rational thinking, and yes, “sick” to a degree of revealing poor character on his part.
WOW!
Ryan, Thanks for saying to Nick what you said. You are spot on.
Nick, what you said was sick. You need to step away and reflect, and if you’re a Christian, pray and repent before posting again – and when you do – we anticipate godly sorrow and contrition.
I had to read Nicks comments more than once. I at first thought that I misread or misunderstood
I am dumbfounded by his comments
Nick, you are digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole of shame.
Amen a thousand time to your reply Ryan to the disgusting comments about Megan by Nick!
Right as the rain, Les.
Would ya look at that! Bama and Auburn agree.
Agree yes, but CB is more right. 😛
You know, you sound JUST like the fundamentalist muslims who say unless a woman is covered head to toe, she deserves to be raped. Goodness, you sound just like people in THIS country at one time who assumed that if a woman says she was raped, that SHE did something wrong. I thought this country was past this, but clearly we are not. Point of no return? Are you actually serious? If a woman says no, A WOMAN SAYS NO! It does not matter how far things got, the second she says no, and he does not stop HE IS… Read more »
Nick, i can only hope that someday you will see how sad and shameful this comment is.
This is just so sad. This is why this is far from over, the sins go much deeper than just PP. How can you even remotely shame a rape VICTIM? I pray my daughters never encounter a man that has the same thoughts as you out of fear for their safety.
It’s funny—guys like Nick say those who don’t like Patterson just never will. But those who do like Patterson are responding biblically, hence the scriptural attributions in his comment.
Then we find out that Patterson lied and, for lack of a better term, stole documents. He also heaped more abuse on the already abused. Who is biblical now?
Duckman Dale Pugh,
The truth is, NIck is extremely ignorant of SBC history and the people who lived it. Many people love Dr. Patterson who can no longer support him because they have done what he himself taught them to do. He taught them to follow the teaching of the Bible above all else. They did, they do and will continue to do so.
SEC CB—once again you hit the mark.
We will never know how many (hundreds of thousands, perhaps a couple million) of former Southern Baptists who are sidelined or serve in other non-Baptist churches, compliments and courtesy of Patterson and Pressler and the environment they created. There are a ton of them in United Methodism. It takes awhile to recover from the misogynist theology. Not to mention the incredibly declining enrollment figures at SWBTS. Again, it would have been better to have run those two out of town 40 years ago. I am sorry I did not do more to help make that possible.
Jerry Evins,
Your pity party is getting old. If you are “sidelined,” it has nothing to do with Dr. Patterson or anyone else. If you are sidelined it is because you have lost your focus on the Lord and His call upon you to die to yourself, take up the cross, and follow Him.
10-4 CB, I have never stopped serving our awesome Lord. In fact, have spent the last 18 years minding my own business. It was a very close SBC brother, distraught over what is going on in the SBC who needed to process all of this with me. R.G. Lee is famous for saying, “Baptists are many but ain’t much.” The reasons are pride, hubris and bad theology. This good old boys club and male supremacy heresy along with Patterson-Pressler worship/idolatry has hit critical mass and is self imploding with the weight of all the abuse being revealed. Throw in some… Read more »
Baptist theology is good theology, closer to biblical theology than any other extant “branding” in contemporary times. However, there are some bad theologians handling good Baptist theology and they can’t help but taint it when they put their spin on it (liberalism mostly). Remember, “What is in the well is what comes up in the bucket.” I think that quote is from Adrian Rogers, another well known Memphis pastor who had his problems with liberals also like R.G. Lee. When R.G. Lee made that famous statement was during the time when liberals flourished in the pulpits of Southern Baptist churches… Read more »
Liberals were flourishing in Southern Baptist pulpits? The SBC seminary I went to in the 1980’s had zero liberals. We were all confident in God’s Word. No heresy anywhere. But, if any of us attended a church where there was a woman deaconess, oh my goodness, that was grounds for dismissal from the CR. I maintain that the big issue has always been women in ministry. It’s pretty convoluted all the pharisee rules women have to submit to to do ministry in SBC churches. There are to be no men present…. You share or speak, but not preach…. You cannot… Read more »
So, are you actually Jerry Evans and are you in Arizona or New Mexico?
Be careful how you accuse someone of lying, lest you be guilty of slander and being a “false witness” against someone. Just because Kevin and the Board of Trustees say something, does not, automatically, make it true. Knowing Paige Patterson, he probably crafted his words carefully in answering the Trustee’s question, and perhaps his words were twisted in the minds of the hearers. You know, that does happen, just as my words above were misconstrued.
Hey Nick, am pretty sure lying is the reason PP was fired by the trustees. They seem pretty upset about it, as well. All locks have been changed at SWBTS, just as the CR did to a previous president, Russel Dilday, one day after they affirmed his leadership. These are Gestapo tactics and it’s sad. Guys, i grieve for what is happening in the SBC. This great denomination was thriving evangelistically and missionally until Patterson and Pressler came along.
Nick: You need to stop posting. You have no idea what you are talking about. And what you are writing is just crazy talk. The trustees knew exactly what they were doing and it was a long time coming. Deal with it.
Debbie Kaufman,
I don’t know if he should “stop posting,” but for sure all of his posting here is “crazy talk.” You are dead on there, Sooner!
Thank you CB. I shouldn’t even read them, I don’t think I can stomach one more. Sooner!
I agree with you on this comment Jerry. I think you are exactly right. I think the CR was necessary and I’m thankful that we are known as Bible loving people, but there was also some bad fruit and the ends never justify the means.
Surely there was a better way to deal with conflict than the authoritarian takeover that took place. Paige and Pressler community organized the SBC, bussed in voters by the thousands, and won political victories. They are political champions, no doubt. But once they set up the SBC like a totalitarian government, squelching any opposition, women especially were marginalized. Their solution? Call everyone who disagrees with them a liberal. God forbid one gets labeled a liberal in the SBC. Once that happened, we ceased being Baptists. We also bought into the swagger of how God was really going to bless Southern… Read more »
Sometimes a guy just can’t help himself. This is just one of those times for me. 😉 😉 😉 Jerry Evans: “Surely there was a better way to deal with conflict than the authoritarian takeover that took place.” cb scott: “Well, Jerry, my New Mexico friend, I think you are right. Yes. Yes I do, Sir! There would have been a better way and far easier in my opinion. If all you liberal guys had repented and declared the Bible to be inerrant, infallible, and completely sufficient to direct us in all of life, doctrine, practice, and policy as Southern… Read more »
Asked, “What say I”. so I respond. In looking the picture from my seat, which admittingly does not see everything, and certainly not as much as others see, I have to go with the trustees. Their first meeting on PP ended with them hving him step down from the presidency. Assumption: they found enough fault with PP to force that move. But as far as I know, PP admitted no wrong doing. So they are at odds with each other [PP and the trustees] Their second meeting, just the EC, reversed the findings of the first meeting’s deal by revoking… Read more »
So, Mike, the question remains: What reason do you have to believe that Paige Patterson mishandled the situation in 2003? Is it simply because the Trustees said so? So you are believing the Trustees word over Paige Patterson’s word. How would you convince someone, who knows and respects Paige Patterson, to believe the Trustees word over Paige’s word?
Nick, Why do I trust the trustees more than PP? Because PP said he did nothing wrong. And yet his own testimony shows he did plenty wrong. Which means his understanding is skewed. But the trustees are many as opposed to one. Pro 11:14 But in abundance of counselors there is victory. Pro 15:22 Without consultation, plans are frustrated, But with many counselors they succeed. Pro 24 Do not be envious of evil men, Nor desire to be with them; For their minds devise violence, And their lips talk of trouble. By wisdom a house is built, And by understanding… Read more »
Here’s your answer. Because Paige lied.
https://swbts.edu/news/releases/statement-kevin-ueckert-chairman-board-trustees/#.WxHXn9hj2pA.facebook
Time to walk back your accusations and vile drivel.
There you go. Looks like PP lied numerous times. Looks like he has a pattern of going after the rape victim: “to break her down”. And usually where there is a few reports trickling in over a long period, it means there are many, many more unreported incidents. Thus it looks like a pattern, and I dont see how anyone can not see that it is a pattern.
A quote from another online source: ‘SEBT legal counsel, George Harvey, confirmed that such correspondence should be held in the student files under the protection of Federal Privacy laws regarding education records.’ WHY does the wife of Patterson’s chief of staff have access to these communications?? It is reprehensible that confidential records would be released this way. If this breach is not investigated & handled appropriately, I hope Megan Lively considers a lawsuit. This sets a terrible precedent regarding confidential information, who has access to it and releasing it in such a way.
It would seem that Megan could sue Sharaya Colter and pay for her kids to have an Ivy League education.
Releasing those confidential docs simply for hostile purposes – indefensible.
I don’t think individuals can sue for FERPA, though they might have some other privacy claims. The government can take away a school’s federal loans, though.
But, on the issue of student records, there does seem to be one other person who ‘kind heartedly’ gave out information he apparently thought was supposed to remain private under federal law, in a way he thought would avoid a written record of the disclosure. I hate to criticize him because he obviously wanted justice for Megan, but it wasn’t a good look. The privacy laws don’t have an exception for kind heartedness.
It’s sickening to know that people like PP and many other SBC pastors keep such lengthy files on others. We are supposed to be the forgiveness people. How much wasted time goes into documenting the faults of others? The Gentiles do these things in their quests for power. Not so with God’s children.