Dave Miller wrote recently about the dangers of “hyper-grace.” I know I have seen it even in churches I’ve pastored—that when one seeks to confront another concerning sin, even in a loving way, they are met with the cry of “Grace! Grace!” It is the very thing Paul warned about in Romans 6 and elsewhere—grace, thankfully beyond words, covers our sin, both our nature and every act past, present, and future; but grace is not an excuse to dabble and dawdle in sin.
Grace is the awesome favor of God bestowed upon undeserving creatures who have willfully turned against him to make themselves his enemies. Grace stands as the great core of love your enemies and do good to those who hate you.
As all other words fail, grace, simply, is amazing.
The Bible offers several views of grace and its effect upon the recipient. In my opinion, Paul wrote the most beautiful of these in Titus 2:11-14. There we find that grace more than frees us, it transforms us.
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
Paul spent the first half of his letter to Titus leading up to this passage—he called on Titus to strengthen the fledgling churches in Crete by establishing the leadership of elders in each city. He told Titus that such elders must be men of strong character and faithful families, with an ability to teach well and rebuke those who contradict good doctrine. After contrasting them with the empty talkers and deceivers, Paul insisted that through teaching sound doctrine the older men in the churches would likewise grow in character and godliness along with the older women, and they would be able to lead the younger men and women to the same.
Such a life of soundness in faith, love of families, self-control, purity, integrity, and hard work come as the result of grace. For the grace of God has appeared.
Such grace brings salvation, an echo of words Paul wrote elsewhere to a church body (Ephesians 2:8-10). And this salvation is not limited to a single people group at a single time, but rather is for all people everywhere—a foretaste of John’s picture in Revelation 7 that eternity shall be populated with a gathering from every tribe, peoples, and languages.
In bringing salvation, grace brings transformation. The very reason the elders can be men as Paul described in 1:5-9, and the very reason the older men and women can possess the character described in 2:1-10 with the hope of passing it down to the younger Christians… the very reason is that grace trains us to renounce ungodliness and live upright in the present (and quite godless) age. A few sentences later, Paul described how we are saved “by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.” These ideas draw from Ezekiel 36, where God promised his people the removal of a dead and dry heart of stone, and its replacement with a heart of flesh that beats in love for its God. In such a move, God promised a cleansing wash and the indwelling of his Spirit which will “cause you to walk in my statues and be careful to obey my rules” (36:27).
Grace does not leave a person with a heart that loves sin, but rather births a new heart through the presence of the perfect Spirit which lead a person to love God more than sin.
In this present age, which itself stands corrupted by the fall, we live warring between the old nature and the new (Romans 7). Our new hearts desire godly lives, but the rotting corpse of the old self seeks to weigh us down. Thus, Jesus said we must deny and crucify ourselves daily (Luke 9:23), a feat ultimately empowered by the grace of a God who works within us so we can work out our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13). Such self-denial and crucifixion leads to our confession and repentance of sin that looks to revel in grace as opposed to sin (1 John 1:9, 2 Corinthians 7:10).
Grace also sets our focus on the right Person. We wait for our blessed hope, our hope beyond hope that longs for the completion of salvation and the renewal of all things; our hope which eagerly and joyfully anticipates the day we will see our God face to face and dwell with him forever. Grace sets our hearts to long for the return of Christ and love his appearing. This enables us to walk daily in faithfulness that we might fight the good fight, finish the race, and keep the faith (2 Timothy 4:7-8).
With our focus turned to Jesus, longing for his return, grace reminds us of who we are and what we are to do. No longer are we sinners, but we are the redeemed and the purified—theological synonyms of a word Paul used at the opening of many of his letters: saints, the holy ones. We are holy in Christ and holy because of Christ, and thus able to live holy lives set apart for God and set apart from sin. Though each Christian is a saint, more properly we are the saints. We are a people for Jesus’ own possession. We belong to him, a holy nation called from darkness and into marvelous light that we might proclaim his excellencies (1 Peter 2:9).
Our proclamations of him are without a doubt verbal. The Gospel is good news and news cannot be communicated without words. Yet we also proclaim through good works—works of love, works of service…works of grace. We do not do these works begrudgingly but passionately—zealous to serve for the glory of the God who has saved us.
This is grace.
A covering for sin yet more… true grace is liberation and transformation. True grace leads us away from sin and ever closer to the God of all
Excellent post. Grace is truly a magnificent truth. Sad that it is so abused, so often. But, even as we hold the line on biblical teachings, we must never forget how amazing grace really is.
Mike,
As I set here listening to all the neighbors fireworks, I’m thinking there is no greater fireworks than here on Voices. I mean this in a very good way.
This is a wonderful post, thank you for bringing this out. My hat is off to you and Dave. God bless you both. I don’t know where folks get the hyper-grace doctrine from, it’s not scriptural.
Excellent. I almost wish someone had told me this 20 years ago. I say “almost” because I appreciate it so much more now.
We are holy in Christ and holy because of Christ, and thus able to live holy lives set apart for God and set apart from sin.
I’m not able to live a holy life. I will not be able to live a holy life until Christ returns or I am in heaven.
Also, people seem to want Christ to return more for the selfish desire of escapism than anything else. I also realize that we love Christ so much that we want to see him, but in America, it’s more a reason of escapism. Meanwhile, what of those who will not know Christ when he returns, which is the reason he has not returned yet. We have time to evangelize. If he would return now, many will not be saved. When we leave, the Holy Spirit will leave.
You write that we are to proclaim sin, yet I have not seen one word written about CJ Mahaney for example or other sins that have occurred in the SBC or Baptist churches here. Seems rather hypocritical.
“If he would return now, many will not be saved. When we leave, the Holy Spirit will leave.”
They will not be saved if He delays either. Do you think Christ will return before all those that the Father has given Him will come to Him?
When we leave the Holy Spirit will leave? Yeah, even if I’m a ‘pre-trib rapture’ person, not sure I get that.
Debbie, you’re passionate about something here, but not sure what it is.
Grace is the freedom to accept who I am, strengths and weaknesses. Paul wrote about this quite often. “I do what I don’t want to do etc. “. Paul was honest about his strengths and his weaknesses all the while preaching and writing spiritual truths. His message was more the freedom we have in Christ, the fact that we do sin even though we don’t want to.
Grace allows us to say I am not holy but holy through Jesus Christ who died in my place. I want to be holy but the fact is I am not. But we have 1 John 1:9 and the fact that day by day we are being transformed by the Holy Spirit through the renewing of our mind. But next to a holy God we are not holy. We struggle with sin day by day. God has made a way of escape, but we don’t always use it. Paul’s message and Christ’s message is relationship is more important. This leads to sanctification.
We should strive for righteousness. Obedience, but when we fail we should know through the reading of scripture that nothing we do can make God love us less and nothing we fail to do can make God love us less. That is Grace.
Excellent article. I’m afraid Debbie is “missing the mark.”
“Grace is the freedom to accept who I am, strengths and weaknesses.”
I can’t even wrap my brain around this definition of grace.
We are who we are whether we accept it or not. I don’t see grace in there.
I agree with much of what you said, but what does CJ Mahaney have to do with anything here?
A lot Clark. Not one person has spoken out against what was done under his watch, yet posts like this are being written.
I really liked this part:
These ideas draw from Ezekiel 36, where God promised his people the removal of a dead and dry heart of stone, and its replacement with a heart of flesh that beats in love for its God. In such a move, God promised a cleansing wash and the indwelling of his Spirit which will “cause you to walk in my statues and be careful to obey my rules” (36:27).
Grace does not leave a person with a heart that loves sin, but rather births a new heart through the presence of the perfect Spirit which lead a person to love God more than sin.
Debbie, I get what you’re saying in your posts, and agree with it yet also completely disagree with it.
On the one hand, yes we still sin–which is why we confront it, confess it, repent of it, etc. But on the other hand we are holy and we can live holy. If we could not, then Paul’s appeal in Romans 12:1-2, and Peter’s command in 1 Peter 1:14-16 would be nonsense.
What I see in your posts is something I’ve seen in certain Bible studies and books–a defeatist attitude that almost makes it seem that we can do very little right, our hearts are constantly idolatrous, and we must always question our motives. In fact one Bible study that some people in my church like, rightly says that in our lives we should constantly be striving to see a bigger and fuller picture of who God is in his awesomeness and holiness; but wrongly it maintains that we do this by seeing our own sinfulness and unholiness in greater contrast. Thus, we must be constantly repenting of all sorts of different named self-righteousnesses.
It is like we are supposed to constantly remind ourselves that God is so great and I am such a worm. And that is not at all what the Bible does.
Yes it speaks to our sin, but it highlights even more our being and identity in Christ. The greatest hope of salvation is glorification to come, but there is great hope now as well. Paul’s words from 1 Corinthians 6:9-11…
The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God–not the sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, greedy, drunkards, revilers, or swindlers. Then Paul declares, “Such were some of you.” Not “such are some of you.” And what has changed… but “you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified.”
The great truth that in Christ we are new creatures, changed and set apart. The reason why we will progressively grow in sanctification is because we are sanctified.
And over and over the pages of the New Testament just drip with the sweet honey of who we are and what God has made us and is making us to be in Christ–that way we don’t have to accept who we are naturally, weaknesses included; but we get to revel in who we are becoming in Christ.
Sadly, I think that is a small view of grace that misses the great transformation it brings in our lives.
Mike Bergman,
Sir, you have hit the nail right on the head. Thank you. Once again, outstanding post.
The fundamental flaw in Debbie’s vociferous and voluminous comments is actually a common one. Biblical truth is generally a balancing act. But she uses one side of the truth to deny the other, which causes a fall into error.
All of scripture must be taken seriously, not just that part that supports a thesis.
Dave,
That is an excellent way to some up the issue. I would have said it just like that . . . if I were smarter.
For years, especially after researching my thesis for three years on quantum physics and it’s impact on theology, I have been captivated by the idea of paradox.
So many, maybe all though I have not done an exhaustive study, doctrines in the Bible are part of a paradox. There are doctrines that seem like oil and water, but we know that God cannot be a contradiction so we struggle to reconcile these paradoxes. As with the Trinity, our attempts always leads to an explanation that is less than perfect, yet operable.
True Frank, I can agree with this. Both passages, the oil and the water must be translated to come together.
Yes, all scripture must be taken seriously and I believe I do take it seriously, but aren’t you doing the very thing you accuse me of? I believe so. Skipping over passages through out the New Testament which tell of our righteousness and Holiness through Christ and his death, burial, and resurrection?
Our victory came with Christ’s sacrifice and resurrection. It doesn’t depend on what I do or don’t do. New Covenant. The Old Testament is no longer our Covenant. And that is Good News and anything but defeatist. The best way to love God more, is not to try to love God more. The best way When you try and change your own heart, we fail.
The message of Paul, the Bible…is to cry out to God to transform. Not by living holier lives, that leads to failure. The Bible is total dependence on God and none on yourselves. This is Grace too. This is anything but defeatist. Until that happens, nothing will happen and you can preach holiness till Christ comes. Preach Holiness, and then preach who we are in Christ and how we obtain that step toward Holiness, through Christ doing it in us, through prayer.
Debbie, please point out where I skipped over any passage on “holiness.” Again, you state things that simply are not true. I spoke above of “holiness.” In a couple posts in fact.
You keep saying things like, “not by living holier lives.” I simply quote both the O.T. and N.T. “BE HOLY.” As I point out that is in the imperative mood demanding “action.” It is not describing a state of being already in operation.
Now, I do believe in our “righteous standing in Christ” (we are the righteousness of God in Him). Therefore, I believe we are discussing a clear paradox. You resolve it, as Dave points out, by nullification. I attempt to resolve it by simplification: I simply seek to live a holy life as the Word clearly describes hoping one day to have a reward for the good that I have done in Christ.
If you will reread the last paragraph you state exactly what I have just stated above. The conflict is, you have stated many times that we are NOT to pursue holy living through good works. In your “blinder” situation, you cannot see your inconsistencies.
You are arguing with me about something that, apparently we agree on. I just come to my conclusion without throwing out verses that are troubling to my thesis.
Frank: I think you had better read Galatians again. Yes, sin matters, but not in the way you are relaying it. Sin and that includes the sin of trying to control people, or being an authority over people where there is no such teaching in scripture, and the breaking over our sin is a result of Grace. Grace is the number one factor. It is the theme of the entire New Testament.
Debbie, you are basically asserting that if we don’t agree with your (well, I’m guessing Wade’s) rather extreme view of grace, we do not actually believe in grace.
I’m guessing pretty much everyone here believes that we are saved by grace, and that we live by grace. We believe that our righteousness is Christ’s and that our relationship with God depends on that righteousness instead of our own.
You act as if you are the only one who believes those things. I believe them.
However, I also believe the balance to that – that as recipients of grace, we are still responsible to walk in the fear of the Lord, obey him, honor him, pursue holiness, confess sin, etc.
Antinomianism is the idea that since we are not under the law, we are free to live as please. Hyper-grace is the idea that since we are washed in the blood, our daily sin is meaningless, and that it just doesn’t much matter how we live.
The truth is not in either legalism or antinomian living. It is in the balance – saved by Grace, empowered by grace, actively pursuing holiness and struggling against sin.
You guessed correctly the first time. My not extreme but in scripture view. Yes, I am basically saying that. You are correct. There are few topics I say this but this is one. Yes. Not as taught in scripture.
Precisely Dave.
Dave,
I’m working through Galatians 6. Your analysis lines up perfectly with what Paul is saying here, and in Galatians in general.
Grace does not mean, “our sin does not matter.” In fact, the sin of a believer matters eternally, because it will result in an eternal deficit of rewards.
Sin also matters even in the life of a non-believer. The one who knows the right thing to do but openly rebels against knowledge with be beaten with many stripes as those who had less access to the gospel will be beat with fewer stripes.
The idea of why sin matters is a topic that is hard for my mind to get around.
I agree with you however in your analysis of hyper-grace. Sin does matter. Grace does not void that issue.
Antinomianism is the idea that since we are not under the law, we are free to live as please. Hyper-grace is the idea that since we are washed in the blood, our daily sin is meaningless, and that it just doesn’t much matter how we live. –
It’s a good charge, but not what I said. It does matter how we live, but not for fear of God’s wrath. But because it’s the best way for us to live. It’s who we are. We want to live that way. We hate sin. We do sin. We do struggle. And the wrath of God is not even a n issue against born again Christians. We do face natural consequences of our actions, choices, We are holy, we are free to live as we want as Holy Spirit filled Christians. I don’t know how much plainer to make it. The charge of aninomianism is a false charge, but one I can live with. It shows a partial understanding of what I believe.
Sin does matter. I think my past writings show I believe this. But, being holy is not by trying harder, or by my meeting your expectations and rules. Christ is my head. Not man. The Holy Spirit is my guide along with scripture, not a minister who tries to control.
That is both arrogant and wrong – to assume that unless one shares your view on this they do not believe in grace.
I think you need to get back in the Word on this one.
I wouldn’t say I am being arrogant Dave. I am simply teaching what the Bible teaches. Grace is one of the most misunderstood subjects in scripture by Baptists. It’s time we began to really look at it as the New Testament teaches it. I don’t think that has happened yet. Christ said the truth will set one free. This is one truth that is freeing.
BTW: I think you are wrong. Very wrong.
God and the Holy Spirit must be trusted to work in people. We learn from preaching, but we also must study the Bible on our own to see what is true and what is myth given down from generation to generation. Grace is a subject that is not preached enough and when it is, most times it is wrong because preachers tend to think they are licensing sin by preaching it yet it was given to us in scripture by God.
Was Paul being arrogant when he penned these words in a letter to the churches who were being taught Grace and to follow the Jewish law?
“Am I trying to win the approval of men or God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men I would not be a servant of Jesus Christ.” Galatians 1:10 or “I receive my message from God not men.” 1:11-24.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?] 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? Galatians 3:2-5
Romans 3:21-26:
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
1. God has made a way to be right with Him. 2. Putting our trust in Christ rather than doing good makes us right with Him. 3. Christ’s death paid the penalty that should be ours. He took and experienced God’s wrath for the penalty of sin. 4. God’s justice is satisfied and we are declared by God right with Him because of what Christ did on the Cross not by us doing anything good or bad. 5. As the Judge God says we are wrong, but being the Justifier He declares us right and righteous. Holy.
Our guilt is gone. Christ’s righteousness has been given to us. God can call bad people(us) good because of what Christ has done. Justification is God’s once for all declaration that sinners who put their faith in Christ alone, are no longer under judgment and experience all the benefits of being right with God because of what Christ has done. That is the Good news.
The book of James which was referenced here is the outward showing of that justification, the Grace shown us by God.
This is not a defeatist attitude. That is a misunderstanding of Grace. It’s the opposite. It’s freeing. Yet we are being transformed daily. To say I have to live a Holy life, now that’s defeating. It’s what wears people out.
We are Holy because Christ is holy. We are not a slave to the Law and it’s consequences, the lost are, we are not. Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Hebrews.
We do sin, but we are not a slave to sin. We have the Holy Spirit in us, perfecting us, but we will not be perfect.
And to be honest, just looking at the SBC in the past 6 years, Holiness is not the first word that comes to mind. Not even our leaders can live completely Holy lives.
The reason for the volumous comments Dave speaks of is also a reason I shouldn’t get in these discussions. There is a whole series that could come from this as there is so much more than can be discussed here. The whole teaching that has been taught needs to be changed. We have been wrong in this teaching, and grace left by the wayside and misdefined. That sticks in my craw and then it’s passed down generation to generation.
“”””The whole teaching that has been taught needs to be changed””””
Debbie, this is what I’m talking about in regard to “blinders.” You use this type of sweeping, general statement that implies everybody has gotten everything all wrong until you ride in to save the day.
I must be honest, I’m not sure if you believe this or not, but the voluminous times you express matters like this make me wonder.
“”””And to be honest, just looking at the SBC in the past 6 years, Holiness is not the first word that comes to mind. Not even our leaders can live completely Holy lives.””””””
If you will read above, you will notice that you actually argue AGAINST expressions of holiness. You argue exclusively for a “state of holiness,” over and against a “practice of holiness,” which I think you call “rules and regulations.”
I am only suggesting that perhaps in your eagerness to level the playing field you actually shoveled too much soil to one side. It seems to me you are now agreeing, at least in part, that holiness is related to actions and behavior.
If you are moving in that direction, then we have some agreement. I do accept your premise that we have “righteousness as a state of being because of our standing IN Christ.” Do you also agree that we must have righteousness a matter of behavior (rules if you will) because of our standing WITH Christ.
If you answer, yes, to that last question we are in agreement and we are simply coming to the same point from a different direction.
And, I agree that we will not exhaust the discussion of grace this side of heaven, if ever.
PS–My sermon this week is on Galatians 6. It is titled “Goo-Goos.”
I’ll let you Google “Goo Goos.”
The premise is that we, as followers of Christ, should be “Goody Two Shoes” (Also known as Margery Meanswell) and should reflect our righteous standing in righteous deeds.
Thank you, Debbie, for helping prevent me from going to far to the side of “deeds.” I perfectly get the issue of “grace in Christ and Christ alone.” But, I’m thankful for your reminder.
I’m perfectly comfortable in what I see scripture teaching. I have taught through the book of Galatians and Ephesians. I’m just fine with my eyes wide open.
Actually Mike, what you have said is exactly what I am saying.
“”””A lot Clark. Not one person has spoken out against what was done under his watch, yet posts like this are being written.”””””
This is the typical statement of a moderate. Just proclaim it with passion and hope people will accept it as fact.
I recall an entire thread on this topic with many condemning the issue, many searching for more information, and not one defending any sin. You cannot simply make a statement and expect it to be accepted simply on the volume of your pronouncement.
Often, it is like you are a race horse straining to reach some “finish line.” In order to maximize your energy toward that goal, you place blinders on your eyes so that you can see nothing else but your goal.
We all do this to some extent I suspect, but when we do it causes what the Bible describes as “zeal without knowledge.” Zeal is not enough. It can be like putting the pedal to the medal while driving toward a cliff.
Again Frank, you insult in order to humiliate and control, but you are not dealing with the passages.
Debbie,
This is something else you do anytime you engage in blog discussions–not only here but elsewhere–when your argument unravels you accuse people of being “insulting, unkind, or unChristian.”
If you read my post carefully you will note that if I am insulting you, then I also insulted myself because I said, “we all do it.”
Your argument is inconsistent. It is a moderate approach to Scripture. It means we come to the text with an opinion of what that text “should” say and argue our opinion.
I’m simply saying that when we push grace to such limits to appease a preconceived idea of what grace should be, it sees to be what grace is.
Debbie,
Might I ask how in the world anybody could “control” any discussion on the Internet?
Wouldn’t that be a little like trying to push string through a pipe?
“ceases” not “sees” My iPad has a mind of its own.
Frank: Fact: When you use the word moderate, it is to shut down discussion and to insult. I am not saying anything that is not in scripture. I have given a few of many references.
Christ appeased God’s wrath to us at the cross. It’s pretty simple. Most teachings are handed down from generation to generation, but they do not fit who we now are in Christ Jesus.
Debbie,
Do you deny Hebrews 12? Where it talks about our Father, God, disciplining His children for willful disobedience? In other words, we, Christians, can stray from God….and, disobey God….and, God will give us a spanking to get us back to where we should be.
Also, do you deny the sin unto death? A Believer, who runs from God, who keeps living in known sin, who refuses to repent, will be taken out of this world, eventually by God? 1 John 5:16
Also, 1 Corinthians was mostly about Paul getting onto the Believers in that Church for the way they were ACTING.
David
Vol,
Somewhat off topic, but does it not amaze you that folks name local churches Corinth?
cb scott,
This may amaze you but I used to live in Corinth.
My wife and I had our first date in Corinth.
I went to Corinth today with my Dad. We went to Ryan’s to eat…his choice…not mine….lol.
David: What does the word discipline mean? It means teaching. God isn’t angry with us, but he does teach us. He does lovingly show us. Again, Christ is our best example. Look how he taught the disciples, look in scripture at how Christ dealt with those who came across his path and were sinners and outcasts. Do you honestly think he deals differently and harshly with us? No. He doesn’t. We are his children.
If one of my children was getting drunk every night, and beating his wife and children, I would be angry with him….even though he’s my child. thank God, none of my boys do such a thing…but if they did, I would be upset, angry, and getting after them….because I love and care about them. Debbie, you have a twisted view of God and grace.
David
Is a constant abuser who beats his wife really a Christian David? I have my doubts and of course I hate these type of people. It would be hard to even love my children if they did this(thankfully that is not the case). In this case I would be more concerned for the abused than the abuser. I hate the person that did what he did to my children. Thankfully he is no longer on this earth.
I don’t think my view is twisted. It may seem twisted to those who have only been taught of God’s wrath and that they must keep in line so God doesn’t whip them. That is just not true. Christ redeemed us once for all.
I will sing of my Redeemer,
And His wondrous love to me;
On the cruel cross He suffered,
From the curse to set me free.
Sing, oh, sing of my Redeemer,
With His blood He purchased me,
On the cross He sealed my pardon,
Paid the debt, and made me free.
I will tell the wondrous story,
How my lost estate to save,
In His boundless love and mercy,
He the ransom freely gave.
I will praise my dear Redeemer,
His triumphant pow’r I’ll tell,
How the victory He giveth
Over sin, and death, and hell.
I will sing of my Redeemer,
And His heav’nly love to me;
He from death to life hath brought me,
Son of God with Him to be.
source: http://www.lyricsondemand.com/miscellaneouslyrics/christianlyrics/iwillsingofmyredeemerlyrics.html
Ummm, Debbie, no one was talking about beating…we were talking about spanking. I have never beaten my wife, and I have never beaten my children. I have spanked my children. If you want their phone numbers, so you can call them and ask them about me….or, better yet, give me your number, and I’ll ask them to call you…they’ll tell you what kind of man their Dad is….
Good grief, Debbie, talking to you is like trying to nail jello to the wall.
David
Debbie,
I’m getting confused in this comment thread…it’s getting so long… I thought you were comparing spankings with beating. Then, I realized you were responding to my example. My bad.
But, Debbie, I do know of Christian people, who do bad things. They’re still saved people….but, they do bad things….I have a few couples visiting my church, right now, who are living together… unmarried. I have preached about it from the pulpit….they will tell you that they know it’s wrong….we wont let them join our church, because of it….and, they come still come to Church… and, when I witness to them, they claim to be saved…they tell you that they know that they’re born again….soooooo….
David
Debbie,
Your view of God is indeed insufficient. You magnify one part of His nature to the exclusion of all else. That leads you down the path to heresy.
Then, you exaggerate the idea of discipline to a point that you completely miss the fact that the Bible says that without strong discipline, there is no evidence we are walking in God’s love.
I have to agree your view of God is a bit twisted.
Coming from you Frank, I see that as a compliment. One thing though: I am not overlooking anything but your translation of the passages. Discipline does not mean what you think it means. There are other passages that are clear on this as well as the original manuscripts. (which I learned 2 in service this morning. I would encourage you to listen to today’s good stuff. )
Debbie,
We have some agreement on discipline. I think you misunderstood me in regard to Hebrews 12. I never suggested it meant “scourging, whipping, or beating.” I do not believe that. The word translated “discipline,” is more like “education.”
It could, and often did, have a harshness and compulsion as an opponent, but not like “scourging.”
You express a view that any and all compulsion, strictness, or sense of making one uncomfortable is tantamount to scourging. That was your rendition of “discipline,” not mine.
In pushing your view you exaggerated all “discipline” as not part of God’s plan for His children in direct violation of God’s Word.
Now, you are coming back to some form of discipline as appropriate.
So, in this regard, we are not as far off as it might appear.
I do think in other passages and other contexts, God’s discipline involves some rather harsh and uncomfortable circumstances for His children–but not necessarily in Hebrews 12.
whipping, spanking, same thing David and no where found in scripture. It is a complete mistranslation of the passage.
On this, Debbie, you are simply wrong.
Debbie,
Spanking is not beating….good grief.
David
Debbie,
In Proverbs 13:24 the word for “rod” as in “he who spares the rod…” is literally the word stick – it was a broken off rod of tree used in punishment. It is in rightly knowing this word and the manner of use of this instrument that teaches a Biblical mandate to use such in discipline. It is not approval for abuse. It is to correct and teach. The example of the love that God used in chastising is the example for us – and it includes the rod.
You cannot say that spanking is NOT found in scripture – it is and it even says that one who does not use the rod, hates the child. The hate of a child is seen when the rod is abused, it is also seen when the rod is neglected in the discipline of children.
I was spanked often in my child and even teen years and I am thankful for it. My parents never abused me but did teach and instruct and correctly applied the appropriate discipline that I needed. This is love. We do the same for our boys!
Christ brings his sheep back. Look at the story of the Prodigal son for example. The father did not punish, beat over the head or even get angry at his son who strayed. He threw a party when he came back, but the father didn’t treat him badly. In fact the older son was jealous because he did all he could right and the younger son was honored.
The younger son did experience the natural consequences of his choices.
We aren’t children David, and God doesn’t treat us as little kids.
You have to view Hebrews 12 in the light of God’s loving acceptance of us. One person is missing in all of the comments here. Jesus. Jesus is God.
Jesus changed everything.
Jesus is not missing in any of the comments.
Also, I notice that you skipped over 1 Corinthians and 1 John 5:16.
If one of my children was told that they could play out in the yard, but to not get into the street; and they disobeyed me, then I would tell them to stay in the yard like I told them to. But, the next time I saw them in the street, I would’ve given them a spanking, or made them come on into the house. sometimes, God has to give us a spanking when we dont listen to Him….and sometimes, He tells us to just come on into the House…Heaven.
David
Vol,
She also either “skipped” interaction with 1 Peter 1:1-15 in the “hyper-grace” post or she didn’t see it.
Vol, that should have been 2 Peter 1:1-15. Sorry.
Vol and CB
Great points. Great observations. You two, of course, are right.
CB, Yep….and, I am afraid we have a lot more like Debbie, out there, who are flirting with antinomianism.
Flirting with? You mean who are full out antinomians. I don’t see any flirting going on in this thread.
Forgive my frustration but this is one area Baptists usually have wrong. It is the wrong view of God and the wrong view of who we are in Christ. Also if you look in scripture, scourging is used 7 times in 7 verses and always as unjust punishment. Matthew 20:19, Mark 10:34, Luke 18:33, John 9:1) Jesus or those who followed him. (Matthew 10:7, 23:34) To say God whips us is to use this barbaric way of injustice as punishment and that is just not how God treats us in light of other passages.
In Hebrews 12, Christians were under persecution. God would be cruel to threaten scourging to those in persecution facing scourging. He is anything but unjust, he is anything but cruel. To hear God is persecuting you when you are already being persecuted doesn’t make sense. This is just 2 of several ways I studied this subject.
In comment 50, Debbie states, “We are his children.”
In comment 53, Debbie states, “We aren’t children David, and God doesn’t treat us as little kids.”
Debbie,
What are you stating here? Why do you in one comment state that we are God’s children and then in another, state that we are not children and God does not treat us as kids? Is not a kid a child in your understanding?
Often when I speak of my children, although most of them are grown men, I speak of them as “my kids.”
Also, you stated that the word “discipline” means teaching. You are right, it does. It also means to instruct and correct. However, there are various methodologies of teaching, instructing, and correcting. As we read both the OT and the NT we find that God employees more than one method of discipline for His children.
Specific to Hebrews 12:5 we are instructed not to regard lightly the discipline of the Lord. That means we are not to despise it, or reject it, or think of it as not proper and right.
In 12:6 we are taught that God disciplines His children and part of that discipline obviously may involve “scourging” us.
Scourging means to plague or to whip. Of course, we know that God does not literally take a whip and beat us. Divine “whipping” (chastisement) entails various and different sufferings which God has determined and designed for our good. (We could state that God has “ordained our chastisement” according to the uniqueness of our personalities.)
God’s discipline of His children (His kids) involves not only “whipping” (scourging) us for specific sins and rebellious acts of transgression, but seemingly entails trials and His chosen tribulations which He does ordain and direct for our good.
The disciplinary “scourging” of God in our lives, as His children, works to mortify sin and also it brings about a nurture to our faith and develop us as mature saints.
Therefore, we should not despise such scourging, for it is His discipline for us and it is for our good and not for our harm. He does discipline us that we might share His holiness. Through discipline, which sometimes involves scourging, we share in His holiness to the point of yielding the peaceful fruit of righteousness which is always for His glory. It is all for His glory.
So therefore, we must endure His scourging for it is for our good and is always remedial and never, never, never, retributive which would be punishment. And we know God never, never, never punishes His children for we are not criminals and aliens, convicted of crimes without hope. We are not illegitimate children. No, we are not! We are His kids!!! He treats us as His children because we are His children by the blood of Christ. And what loving and wise father does not discipline his children? Certainly, not our Father, for our Father loves us and wants the best for us, now and always!
Jesus speaks directly to the churches in Revelation. He commends them for the things they do right and rebukes them for their sin.
“As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten”
CB: Scourging is simply another word for discipline or teach which comes from the word disciple. It isn’t whipping or beating. That is not the proper interpretation of this passage. Scripture interprets scripture. It goes against the very passages that speak of our justification through Christ. When God sees us he sees Christ. He is not going to whip Christ.
I think you know my meaning concerning “we are not children.” I shouldn’t have to explain it further and I won’t.
Guys: Faith in Christ brings salvation, do you honestly think God would make salvation so simple and then bam, bushwack us with a bunch of scourgings and beatings? No. The passages must be read with the fact that we are God’s children(not kids, but adults. ) God is going to put us through tough lessons. Very tough while He himself is loving, caring, and kind through it all, watching us and walking with us as we go through it for a pre-determined time that only God knows.
There is a huge difference between willful sinning and struggles. Willful sinning, God may be tougher, but it’s never a whipping or beating. No hard situation is easy to go through. We may think we are doing just fine, obeying, just doing pretty perfect, and then God puts us through a situation of his design which shows us differently and the very thing He wants to fix. Why doesn’t he just fix it? I think a couple of reasons. 1. when the trial is over we will thank him and 2. We will say with the Psalms that it was good to be afflicted. But no scourgings in the definition you have. No.
BTW: Children should never be whipped. Ever.
Debbie,
Obviously you did not read my comment. You just rejected it because it was me who wrote it.
please take note of this one statement:
“Scourging means to plague or to whip. Of course, we know that God does not literally take a whip and beat us. Divine “whipping” (chastisement) entails various and different sufferings which God has determined and designed for our good. (We could state that God has “ordained our chastisement” according to the uniqueness of our personalities.)”
BTW, I did not give any hint of stating that a child should be “whipped” or “beaten.” Debbie, please never make even the slightest hint of such again. I will certainly appreciate it. I have never beaten a woman or a child. . . but I have made many a man wish he hadn’t either.
So please don’t do that to me. Don’t even hint at such.
C.B., I love this comment:
“I have never beaten a woman or a child. . . but I have made many a man wish he hadn’t either.”
CB: It’s not because you wrote it. It’s because it’s not the meaning taught in scripture. Even the word to chasten means to learn or teach. We learn in 3 basic ways according to scripture. 1. Personal and verbal instruction. (Psalms 16:7) 2. Observation( Jeremiah 2:30) and by experience and that includes suffering. (Jeremiah 10:24). And some things are just a natural occurrence of life, the fallen world.
Not all suffering is because of any sin. Job’s friends made this mistake in their advice to him. In the book of Luke Christ told the disciples that not all disease or suffering is as a result of sin. And for them not to self-righteously attribute other people’s misfortune to God’s judgment or because of sin. (example John Piper’s recent tornado debacle). But we should always pray, learn, grow, through any experience whether from God directly or through life’s ups and downs.
But God isn’t wrathful towards us. Again, Christ took the wrath(anger) from us onto himself at the Cross.
David tells us how he finds comfort in the
“rod” and staff. The rod and staff as used by a good shepherd are comfort and loving care.
““He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters, he restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name’s sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows” (Psalm 23:2-5).
CHILDREN SHOULD NEVER BE WHIPPED? Are you kidding me? Of course, they should be spanked…when they willfully disobey their Mom and Dad, or show disrespect(like spitting in their Momma’s face), then they should have their little bottoms blistered.
God made children with the best place in the world for a paddle.
And yeah, I’ve seen children, whose parents didnt believe in spanking. They’re usually the children that people cringe when they see them walking thru the door of their home, or SS class, or class at school.
I loved my children, Debbie, therefore I taught them….I corrected them….I punished them for doing bad things….I praised them for doing good things…and, I spanked them when they willfully disobeyed me. Today, they love me and respect me, and it’s a blessing to my life….just as I love and respect my Mom and Dad, who spanked me when I needed it…which was often, regretfully.
David
“Scourging is simply another word for discipline or teach which comes from the word disciple. It isn’t whipping or beating.”
Debbie,
“Scourging” is not simply another word for “discipline.” The words are not the same. Scourging and discipline (NASB) are not the word in Hebrews 12:6.
Scourging means to plague, to whip, to beat. Discipline means to teach, to instruct, to correct. In Hebrews 12:6 scourging is a method employed in discipline.
Specific to Hebrews 12:5 we are instructed not to regard lightly the discipline of the Lord. That means we are not to despise it, or reject it, or think of it as not proper and right.
In 12:6 we are taught that God disciplines His children and part of that discipline obviously may involve “scourging” us.
Scourging means to plague or to whip. Of course, we know that God does not literally take a whip and beat us. Divine “whipping” (chastisement) entails various and different sufferings which God has determined and designed for our good. (We could state that God has “ordained our chastisement” according to the uniqueness of our personalities.)
God’s discipline of His children (His kids) involves not only “whipping” (scourging) us for specific sins and rebellious acts of transgression, but seemingly entails trials and His chosen tribulations which He does ordain and direct for our good.
The disciplinary “scourging” of God in our lives, as His children, works to mortify sin and also it brings about a nurture to our faith and develop us as mature saints.
Therefore, we should not despise such scourging, for it is His discipline for us and it is for our good and not for our harm. He does discipline us that we might share His holiness. Through discipline, which sometimes involves scourging, we share in His holiness to the point of yielding the peaceful fruit of righteousness which is always for His glory. It is all for His glory.
So therefore, we must endure His scourging for it is for our good and is always remedial and never, never, never, retributive which would be punishment. And we know God never, never, never punishes His children for we are not criminals and aliens, convicted of crimes without hope.
We are not illegitimate children. No, we are not! We are His kids!!! He treats us as His children because we are His children by the blood of Christ. And what loving and wise father does not discipline his children? Certainly, not our Father, for our Father loves us and wants the best for us, now and always!
“The passages must be read with the fact that we are God’s children(not kids, but adults. )”
Debbie,
I do not believe that you will find in the OT or the NT a reference of God treating us as “adults.” I think that every reference would be that of God seeing us and treating us as “children.” (His children = His kids)
If there is such a reference in Scripture wherein God is treating us as “adults” please direct me to it.
CB: Sure he has. Look through out scripture at the examples. I would disagree. We are not children, God treats us as we are. Adults. It’s the kind of God he is.
David: We are now under a New Covenant. No longer under the Old. Again, Christ has made the difference.
CB: On your definition of scourging, I would completely disagree.
Debbie, you do not get to just change the meanings of words you don’t like. It doesn’t work that way.
Dave: Hebrews 5:2 says that God deals with us gently. God doesn’t fun after us scourging us. Teaching, caring for us, possibly affliction which one cannot say is from God due to sin, but he doesn’t run down the hall whipping us when we sin. He gently corrects us. This also could be a mistranslation. I would have to see the original manuscripts. But it is not meaning what CB and David says it means. Good grief. No wonder our churches are dying. Some don’t get Grace at all.
Debbie,
Those definitions are not “mine.” The source of those definitions is a Greek dictionary, a lexicon.
Forgive my frustration but this is one area Baptists usually have wrong. It is the wrong view of God and the wrong view of who we are in Christ. Also if you look in scripture, scourging is used 7 times in 7 verses and always as unjust punishment. Matthew 20:19, Mark 10:34, Luke 18:33, John 9:1) Jesus or those who followed him. (Matthew 10:7, 23:34) To say God whips us is to use this barbaric way of injustice as punishment and that is just not how God treats us in light of other passages.
In Hebrews 12, Christians were under persecution. God would be cruel to threaten scourging to those in persecution facing scourging. He is anything but unjust, he is anything but cruel. To hear God is persecuting you when you are already being persecuted doesn’t make sense. This is just 2 of several ways I studied this subject.
In the Bible, scourging was reserved for criminals and slaves, Jesus and Paul were unjustly scourged. Paul never ever says I was scourged for my own good. (Acts 22:25)
God trains us as a father according to Hebrews 12. No father ever scourged his son or daughter like the Romans scourged Christ. Ephesians 6:4 says “Fathers do not provoke your children to wrath.”
Debbie,
You stated that you would have to “see the original manuscripts”??
What do you actually mean by that? No one living on the planet today has seen the “original manuscripts.” The original manuscripts are no longer extant.
Jesus in his ministry on earth met many people who needed discipline(teaching from the root word disciple) and correction. How many did you see Jesus scourge like the Romans would eventually do to him. As was done to Paul? He healed the soldier whose ear Peter had cut off with his sword while correcting him due to his actions. Did he scourge Peter? Christ said if you see me, you see the Father. New Covenant.
No one living on the planet today has seen the “original manuscripts.” The original manuscripts are no longer extant.
My point exactly. All we have to go by is scripture interpreting scripture to form a maybe not entirely accurate, but more accurate point of view.
Due to one word, which may be a mistranslation, King James was very much an authoritarian, God has been made into an angry wrathful God to the very people Christ died for and set free to experience the Grace of God, Christians.
“”””then they should have their little bottoms blistered.””””
This type of language gives me cause for concern.
Debbie,
The following is from “Word Pictures in the New Testament,” written by A.T. Robertson. It is not a Greek dictionary. It is a word study resource. Many conservative evangelicals consider it to be a very good resource. Of course, it is not the only good source. There are many and maybe some that are even better. But I used this one because it is concise.
Please examine the word studies Robertson presents for Hebrews 12:5-6.
Hebrews 12:5
Ye have forgotten (????????? [eklel?sthe]). Perfect middle indicative of ????????? [eklanthan?], to cause to forget, old verb, here only in the N.T. with genitive case as usual. Reasoneth with you (???? ?????????? [humin dialegetai]). Present middle indicative of ?????????? [dialegomai], old verb to ponder different (???- [dia-]) things, to converse, with dative. Cf. Acts 19:8f. The quotation is from Prov. 3:11f. Regard not lightly (?? ???????? [m? olig?rei]). Prohibition with ?? [m?] and the present active imperative of ???????? [olig?re?], old verb from ???????? [olig?ros] and this from ?????? [oligos] (little) and ??? [h?ra] (hour), old verb, here only in N.T. Chastening (???????? [paideias]). Old word from ??????? [paideu?], to train a child (???? [pais]), instruction (II Tim. 3:16), which naturally includes correction and punishment as here. See also Eph. 6:4. Nor faint (???? ?????? [m?de ekluou]). Prohibition with ?? [m?] and present passive imperative of ????? [eklu?] (see verse 3).
Hebrews 12:6
Scourgeth (???????? [mastigoi]). Present active indicative of ???????? [mastigo?], old verb from ?????? [mastix] (whip). This is a hard lesson for God’s children to learn and to understand. See 5:7 about Jesus.
Notice:
Chastening = ????????. The transliteration is “paideias.”
Scourgeth = ????????. The transliteration is “mastigoi.”
Those are two different words with two different meanings.
“Chasten” means to teach, to instruct, or to correct.
“Scourge” means to plague or to whip.
Hebrews 12: 6 uses both words. A good translation of 12:6 is, “For whom the Lord loves he disciplines (chastises), and scourges every son He receives.”
Now, take note again of my statement from my comment above:
“Scourging means to plague or to whip. Of course, we know that God does not literally take a whip and beat us. Divine “whipping” (chastisement) entails various and different sufferings which God has determined and designed for our good. (We could state that God has “ordained our chastisement” according to the uniqueness of our personalities.”
Allow me to un-package that statement a little.
Notice I stated, “God does not literally take a whip and beat us.”
Additionally I stated, “Divine “whipping” (chastisement) entails various and different sufferings which God has determined and designed for our good. (We could state that God has “ordained our chastisement” according to the uniqueness of our personalities.”
Debbie, the “scourging” of God upon His children entails various and different sufferings which God has determined and designed for our good and not our harm.
It is not against the integrity of the text in question to state that God has ordained our personal chastisements to fit our unique personalities. God, as a good and loving Father, knows the personalities of all of His children and how to bring about the chastisement that works most positive in our lives.
Debbie, I hope this makes some sense to you as to what many of us are stating here. Maybe if you read my earlier comment once more, you will see what I am stating to you in somewhat a different light. Hopefully, that will be the case. That’s my hope anyway.
Debbie,
I am sorry. As you can see, the Greek did not print in my comment. As you know, I copied and pasted it. However, I think that if you notice the transliterations you will see the difference in the words. Also, you can get A.T. Robertson’s works and you may well have them. If so, give his word studies of Hebrews 12: 5-12 some thought.
Frank l.,
Chill out….”blister their little bottoms” is just a figure of speech around these parts for spanking…not beating. “I’m gonna tear you up” is just another figure of speach around these parts for spanking….but don’t have a heart attack…it just means spanking not beating…
David
CB: Hebrews 12:6 is a quote of Proverbs 3:11&12 which says:
My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor detest his correction;
For whom the Lord loves he corrects,
Just as a father the son in whom he delights.
There is not the word scourge in the Proverbs passage.
“Due to one word, which may be a mistranslation, King James was very much an authoritarian, God has been made into an angry wrathful God . . . ”
Debbie,
For what it is worth, I did not use a KJV. I used, and most often do, a NASB. I also used a Greek Text.
In addition, even if King James was an “authoritarian” as you stated, it was not him who actually did the translational work on the KJV. If I remember the story properly, King James did not even read the Greek language of the NT and certainly not the Hebrew of the Old. However, I could be wrong. It has been many years since I studied How we got the Bible under Dr. Earl Clark and then later under Dr. Maurice Robinson.
Debbie,
The Hebrews passage uses both chasten and scourge. The Proverbs passage is God’s inspired word and the Hebrews passage is God’s inspired word. There is no conflict between the passages, even if you desire to “create” one.
Again, no one has stated that God beats us with a whip. Again, read my comments. I made that pretty plain . . . I think.
CB: Yes, the Bible is the inspired, inerrant word of God. Yet, translations are translations and contain the inspired, inerrant word of God as well. I love translations but they must be read through critically. Scourge cannot possibly in this passage mean whip or beat.
There is this possibility and again, I’m putting myself out there, something it seems I have been doing lately and is rare for me.
In the past 5 years, I have gone through the death of those dear to me. The older ones who have died, it hurts, but nothing that I couldn’t get through rather easily. They were in their 60’s, 70’s, 80’s and lived a full life. They died of cancer, natural death, the beginnings of alzheimer’s and their suffering ended. They knew Christ and so I am confident they are in heaven. I was sad when they were gone, but was not racked with pain over their death. Their suffering here on earth was ended.
On the other hand, a 32 year old young man who I had known since he was 17, who was over to my house a lot as a teenager, I went to nursing school with this young man, and he was close friends with my daughter since the age of 16, committed suicide because his marriage ended. This was so difficult for me. I had shared Christ with him on many occasions as we rode to practicums together or sat in class together. He was funny, smart, and a good looking young man. He was also prone to deep depression. He took a shot gun and shot himself in his home after his divorce was final. I was devastated. It took me a couple of years to completely deal with his death and sometimes it’s still hard. It is one of the most painful things I have ever had to deal with along with my children. It felt like a scourging. It changed me. I cried out to God a lot during that time in order to hand on to my faith which was slipping. But none of this was from my sin, it was life. God allowed it, or he caused it. But it was life. Not punishment for anything I did. Life is hard sometimes. It draws me closer to God to get me through the pain. God wasn’t spanking me or whipping me. I had given this young man Christ.
5 years ago, the father of my grandchildren died in a motorcycle accident at the age of 26. You may remember that time in my life as I wrote about it in my first blog and I did it just to get my feelings out. I was in such pain I did not attend church or SS. I begged my class in tears I couldn’t stop to pray for me and my family. I watched my daughter go through the death of the love of her life at the tender age of 20. Their youngest daughter had just been born and they experienced this birth together without family present. It was a tough time for me and my family. My grandchildren without a father who loved them dearly. It felt like the worst scourging. But it wasn’t from my sin, it was life. God allowed it, it changed me. I became so close to God that I felt like I was crying on His shoulder. I gave this young man Christ. It was not due to any sin from me, but it sure strengthened my relationship with God, Christ. Hard things in life tend to do that. But God wasn’t spanking or whipping me.
There is also the natural consequences of sin. That can be pretty painful too. We have laws on the books for a reason, not to break them. Break them and a police man or woman may come knocking at your door to arrest you, give you a ticket etc.
We hurt the one we love in our family because of our sin. That can be pretty painful like a scourging, but it is not God whipping me. Teaching me, yes. But he’s not whipping me. I am suffering the natural consequences of my sin in both instances.
But by your thinking CB, Christ only accomplished salvation at the Cross. Justification is just a word. That cannot be further from the truth. We are justified through Grace. Most of the books in the New Testament were written as an encouragement to persecuted believers. They were being persecuted for their belief in Jesus Christ.
To turn around and say that scourging means whipping or beating to those who were actually being whipped with pieces of bone in the whip to tear the skin(as in Passion of Christ movie) is not very encouraging. It’s the opposite. It’s cruelty and God is anything but cruel to those who have faith in Christ. He is gentle, loving, a shepherd. A healer of the afflicted, Wonderful, Counselor, The Prince of Peace.
Debbie,
You have mentioned justification a couple of times in this thread. Think about this if you will. The passage in Hebrews we are working with, although it involves our justification, it is more specific to the process of sanctification in the life of the believer as God Himself prepares us for glorification.
And again, no one has stated that God literally whips or beats His children.
Divine “whipping” (chastisement) entails various and different sufferings which God has determined and designed for our good. (We could state that God has “ordained our chastisement” according to the uniqueness of our personalities.”
Debbie, the “scourging” of God upon His children entails various and different sufferings which God has determined and designed for our good and not our harm.
It is not against the integrity of the text in question to state that God has ordained our personal chastisements to fit our unique personalities. God, as a good and loving Father, knows the personalities of all of His children and how to bring about the chastisement that works most positive in our lives.
Also, I know you have suffered through some harsh life experiences. I would not dare try to tell you I know how you feel. Nor would I try to make argument by comparing any harsh experiences from my life with yours. Yet, I do know and personally admit that life experiences do give a degree of “shaping” to our thinking and evaluation of information we receive.
However, it is a mistake (one which I have often made) to superimpose our life experiences as a standard of interpretation upon the Scripture. The truth of the Scripture must be received as it is, God’s Word.
Therefore, we must allow the Scripture to stand on its own and superimpose it upon our life experiences. From the truth of God’s Word we are to interpret life and the personal experiences we have during the time we live in this mortal body at the present.
Please give consideration to these possibilities if you will.
Debbie,
You are interrupting the scriptures, the wayward son was lost, and then received Salvation. This is about how the Jews reacted when folks came to Jesus.
How was the son lost? By the same token that many parents have lost and saved children.
Jess: The father in this story is Christ or God. The son was his son even when he left and went his own way. So I would disagree with your particular take on this passage.
Debbie,
Not true, this is an old belief that folks would and do use to commit sin, and make the claim that their relationship with the Father hasn’t changed because of sin.
You are wrong as you can be.
The father in these verses was probably Abraham, because the Jews claimed Abraham as their Father, They were descendants
of Abraham.
I think we’ve got a closet Lutheran in here.
Ask an orphan whether they want to stay alone the rest of their life or have a family and sometimes get a spanking. That child hasn’t done anything to deserve or earn a family. But when the child gets one anyway, spankings and all, that’s grace.
We deserve hell. But instead we get eternal life, and a heavenly Father who never stops loving us, never casts us aside, but sometimes for our own good has to punish us. That’s grace.
We punish our children because we know that a little pain now may well save a lifetime of pain later. That’s grace.
“Ask an orphan whether they want to stay alone the rest of their life or have a family and sometimes get a spanking.
Some I personally know would have been willing to crawl through fire. However, let me state that “discipline” is not “punishment.”
Discipline from a parent should always be remedial and never retributive which would be punishment.
It is the same with God. His “discipline” of His children is always remedial (for our good and not out harm). Discipline is for His children.
On the other hand, God’s punishment is retributive upon those who die lost. Punishment is for the damned.
Bill Mac, I am sure that is what you meant, but I wanted to make that statement for Debbie’s sake, in hope that it will help her to understand what I am trying to say here about the discipline of God upon His children.
CB: Agreed. The reason I didn’t use discipline is because it seems to be watered down by some on this thread to mean something that is never unpleasant.
Um no Bill, that is punishment. We don’t inflict pain on others as Christians. People in the congregation are adults. You continue to use the example of children, who we also do not inflict physical pain on. They don’t need a spanking. That is called abuse and using religion to say “it’s for their own good. ”
Too many in churches have had needless abusive pain inflicted on them and this is why our churches are shrinking, as they should be. Is this discipline? Scourging? Yet it happens in our churches(this is a Baptist church) and the name of God is invoked.
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2013/06/independent-fundamentalism-in-sbc.html
As for the orphan, if he/she were educated in Biblical Grace, they would rather be alone.
Debbie you don’t believe in spanking children? You say that it’s abuse?
Debbie,
Surely, you are not of the opinion that the people who have responded to you in this comment thread are of the same ilk as the guy in the video, do you?
I do not know Bill Mac personally, but I have read his comments for an extended period of time. I doubt seriously he would be anything like the guy in the video.
As for all the guys who frequent this blog personally who have interacted with you, none of them would be of the same ilk as the guy in the video and I know I am not and so does your pastor, Wade Burleson know that of me.
The use of this video in this dialogue makes not sense to me. You seem to have an image of some of us that is just not who any of us actually are.
Now, having stated all of that, I ask you to consider what I have stated in response to you in the last comment I made. I think it is around #107.
Spanking is child abuse? Then I hope you do your duty and report all incidences of spanking that you know of to the proper authorities. Were you spanked? If so, I trust you reported your parents. I also assume there are no spankers in your congregation. If there are, they need to be reported and placed under church discipline, unless of course that would cause them pain. You really think an orphan would rather be alone for their lifetime than spanked by their adoptive parents? That just shows you don’t know anything about it.
You realize how ridiculous it all becomes? To equate physical discipline with child abuse is an outrageous charge, and I think you either ought to put your money where your mouth is or stand down. If you aren’t reporting spankers to the authorities, then you obviously don’t really believe what you are saying.
Spankings are carried out by parents that know no other way to deal with a situation their children find themselves in.
Spanking or whipping is an unintelligent way of correction. Spanking or whipping that is carried out by a parent will lead to your children spanking or whipping your grandchildren.
I strongly believe in correction carried out by parents. The correction has to be carried out in a loving way, where the child will benefit from it, not the parent. A lot of correction going on today and in the past was for the parents glory which is sin.
Love is the key that opens many doors. If your four year old likes to pretend he is a preacher, and he does something wrong, take his Bible for a little while, he will get the point.
Jess,
So I guess you think that God is unintelligent seeing how He is the one who prescribed spankings as a means of correction?
Might I encourage those who disagree on spankings to write blogs about it…though not here in these comments?
We have a spectrum of views on the subject. I think we all need to start by agreeing that the 50’s illusion of a strict household where the children were seen and not heard was as demeaning as the view that discipline never should include corporal (body) punishment. We’re not just on the basis of a verse in Proverbs going to either overturn views on spankings nor are we going to overcome the public view that the Singapore ritual of corporal punishment of canings is barbarous.
And neither has anything to do with the original post.
It’s a bit more than simply a verse in Proverbs Greg.
Greg Harvey,
Thus far I personally have not been speaking to the subject of the corporal discipline of children.
My focus has been upon the words: discipline, chastisement, and scourging as related to Hebrews 12 and other passages relating to the subject of this post.
I trust you realize that. I would also enjoy your contributions as to Hebrews 12: 5-12 if you would like to engage.
Yes. I did intend to respond to your suggestion on Hebrews 12. I got it started and then in the transition to the weekend lost my train (CHUGGA-chugga-chugga-chugga-CHOO CHOO) of thought.
I think we need to frame the spanking discussion in order to have a useful one. Hence suggesting an alternative blog (article and/or site) to frame that discussion.
When a certain blog commenter decides to declare parents who spank their children as child abusers, then no one ought to sit around when their hands on their cheeks with shocked looks on their faces when people rightly denounce such nonsense as malarkey.
Greg: I for one don’t think there is anything wrong with a couple deciding not to use corporal punishment. But to accuse the parents who do of abuse is beyond the pale. No grace for those parents I guess.
Pain comes in different forms: physical and non-physical. The idea that God never causes pain to His followers simply has no merit. The entire weight of history, humanity, and the bible refutes it.
Exactly right Bill Mac,
The words used in Hebrews 12 are very graphic in nature, chastisement, chastening, scourging. And then Hebrews 12:11 sums up the chastening experience this way “For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.” (ESV)
Discipline always involves some type of pain whether emotional, or physical even in the absence of corporal punishment. Any of us with children have seen the little lip tremble and the chin quiver of a child being disciplined. Grace never just ignores sin, grace deals with it because sin is not good for us.
Certainly, spanking a child can be done in a non-abusive manner and to assume that any parent who spanks a child is abusing them is a leap of logic no reasonable, intelligent person would make.
Sir, yes sir. Back to the point of the post there, sir. How high and how far would you like us to jump, sir? And will that be froggy or bunny style, sir.
I certainly hope you can forgive this terrible offense.
(/sarcasm)
Heh. I guess we could argue on whether spanking is primary or secondary in Mohler’s triage…
Remind me, when you used to comment on Wade’s blog, you used initials w.h. in your name, right?
BTW Greg Harvey,
You mentioned barbarous acts of punishment in other places such as the caning in Singapore. I’ll not get into it much here, for it is now ancient history and matters little to this post, but I have a somewhat “personal understanding” of such things.
Therefore, I would not be a proponent of any corporal punishment of the nature of Singapore caning, nor do I believe any of the people who frequent this blog would be. There is a huge difference between a swat on the rear and a Singapore caning.
Now, have you given any thought to the Hebrews 12: 5-12 that you might share with us here. I normally like to read what you write, unless you are stating that I would cane a child. I would not like to read that.
I’ll tell ya what…you put a strong willed child in time out….then, when he spits in your face, or gets up and runs around….because, he could care less about time outs, then what ya gonna do?
I’ll tell ya what to do….get a paddle….grab that child by the arm…and apply that paddle to it’s bottom…swing hard enough to make it sting…give them 3 licks with the paddle….repeat as often as necessary….and then, after they quit crying, tell them how much you love them, and how you wish you didnt have to spank them….and hug them….
Strange thing….after this is consistently done…you wont have to spank the child, anymore…all you’ll have to do is threaten it, and they’ll straighten up….
A whole lot of children could get off their ADD/ADHD medicine if parents would just follow the directions above…..and, I didnt say ALL children…I said a whole lot….
David
You know… Dave normally does this, but since it’s my post I think I’ll be the one to close comments…
They seem to have run into a tangent that someone else can blog about.