I will admit, last night’s vote in Georgia stunned me. I wanted the GOP to win those. It is not that I passionately pro-GOP these days, but I am unenthused about the idea of the Democrats having unfettered control of government for the next couple of years. They can implement some policies that will be difficult to undo. I know little about Perdue or Loeffler. I know nothing about Ossoff. What I know about Warnock is not good. Fundamentally, I believe in the old adage, that government governs best which governs least. If the GOP could have pulled off at least one win in Georgia, and it should have been able to do so, then we’d have had a divided government over the next two years and little would have gotten done. I’d have liked that.
What went wrong? I watched returns and opinions and analysis last night and have formed some opinions of my own. I am not a political scientist. These are just one guy’s strong opinions.
My thesis is simple:
Donald Trump’s self-absorption destroyed the Republican’s chances in Georgia. He spent the last two months leveling patently false charges about “stolen elections” which turned off GOP voters in Georgia and enthused Democrats. He only cared about himself and his fantasies of remaining in power, and so instead of conceding and working to help the party, he selfishly turned the country over to the Democrats by his false accusations.
Points to Ponder
1. If you say, “Election fraud has been proven,” you are only reading or watching the right-wing fake news sites. Georgia and Arizona are largely GOP controlled states right now. The GOP infrastructure would not have gone along with a grift as big as this. “Affidavits” and “videos” proving stolen elections all evaporated when taken to court and put under the glare of evidentiary analysis. Mostly Republican-appointed judges and justices laughed the false allegations out of court because the evidence was so flimsy. NO ONE believes there was election fraud except for people who drink the poisoned water of right-wing news sites, and fake-news social media. It did not happen. There has been no credible proof that could stand analysis outside right-wing media sites.
2. Donald Trump spent 2 months accusing (primarily) REPUBLICANS in Georgia (and other states) of being involved in corruption to prevent him from being elected – Republican governor, Secretary of State, election officials. He made false accusations against people who had supported him but would not sacrifice their integrity to join in his false accusations of stolen elections. He engaged in what was once called “the politics of personal destruction” and destroyed the GOP in the process.
3. There was exit-polling analysis I watched last night that said that while Democrats turned out in high numbers for the runoff, Republican turnout was disappointing. Why? The prevailing belief is that after 2 months of Trump talking about rigged elections and corruption, Republican voters either did not believe in the system or were so disgusted with the GOP they did not care to support it.
Donald Trump dragged down the GOP in this election with two months of false accusations against the Georgia GOP. If you spent the last two months spreading false reports of stolen elections, you helped to turn over the Senate to Biden and the Democrats.
4. Unfortunately, the Evangelical church compromised itself so badly over the last 5 years that it is hard to see how we still stand prophetically for truth in this culture. So many of our leaders subverted principle for power and for White House access. We put party loyalty ahead of gospel truth. Evangelicalism has always been poorly defined but too many of our leaders have now equated it with voting GOP. We are no longer just in the world, we are of the world.
I know that many will be enraged by what I am saying, but this Senate outcome that did not have to happen. If Donald Trump had conceded, had graciously accepted the will of the American people, and had played the statesman, campaigning for these candidates instead of pursuing this quest to steal votes and overturn Joe Biden’s win, I am convinced the outcome would have been different.
If you are upset that the Democrats are in full control, at least put the blame where it belongs. The president and anyone who supported his false accusations of a stolen election were the allies of Warnock, Ossoff, Biden, Harris, Pelosi, and all the Democrats in the runoff election.
I’m not happy about a Democratic agenda, but I think this had to happen. Trump and Trumpism had to be rebuked in the strongest way possible. It’s the only chance for the GOP to get back some semblance of sanity and integrity.
What we are seeing was inevitable. Trump would rather burn it all down than leave with dignity.
Bill Mac, If you and others here can lay down the Trump and Trumpism thing for a moment, I would like to address something with you and Dave Miller and anyone else who can just have a dialogue without drawing lines in the sand.
I think what Trump did today was wrong. I knew he was off the rail today when he called out the VP in the manner he did. No one has been as loyal to the POTUS than has VP Mike Pence. The POTUS simply did not pony-up in a presidential way when the chaos started.
However, what happened today is greater in scope than Donald Trump. What happened today has been escalating for several years now. By nature, Americans are an independent people and will only be pushed so far in reality or in their imaginations regarding personal freedom.
Many Americans feel their freedom is being taken or at least threatened. Freedom and the desire of freedom and the preservation of freedom is a powerful opiate to Americans.
I think the desire for freedom drove Dr. King to take a stand back in the 60’s that he knew would ultimately take his life. I think the desire to preserve freedom has driven many American young men and women to go to war, knowing that it could result in them dying on foreign soil.
This is bigger than “Trump.” I think this is about what individuals believe as their core values.
CB: I don’t necessarily disagree, however what I believe these people were reacting to is not founded in truth, but in the president’s lies. For reasons that I cannot fathom, a lot of people believe the president. And when he cries theft and sedition and treason, his followers react. He has been poisoning this well for months, and today it came to a head.
Ok. Let’s say that today the negative within the Trump presidency came to physical and visible fruition. However, the Trump presidency is not the only factor at play today in what occurred in DC. That’s my point.
Agreed.
Don’t blame the riot on the thousands of people who attended the rally and were peaceable. Trump did not lie, there was corruption all over the election.
Any comment on the violent takeover of our seat of government? The killing of a police officer in the process? Trumps culpability in the insurrection? Anything that shows you are aware that this has no precedent in 200 years or so? Anything that concerns you other than liberal media and unproven election fraud?
Trump lies with practically every breath he takes. No evidence of election fraud has been produced. Trump’s lawyers have been laughed out of court. Trump incited the riot, with help from Guiliani. What happened to the “biblical” lawsuits from Sidney Powell? What about Trump pressuring Pence to violate the constitution? No Trumpist has addressed that one yet. I’d like to hear an explanation. Pence is a marked man now. Trumpers are already calling for his death.
Trump cries “stolen election” for months. He invites thousands to DC on the day the electoral votes were being counted. What did you think was going to happen?
I think your analysis is pretty accurate. Trump’s antics since November have turned off an increasingly growing segment of the population. BTW, five of the battleground states, Arizona, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Georgia, are in Republican hands.
But in the case of Arizona and Georgia, and down the road by the next election cycle, North Carolina and Texas, there are other reasons for the flip. Arizona is one of the fastest growing states in the country and 80% of the 2.3 million or so people who have moved there in the last couple of decades have come from neighboring California, where Democrats hold almost a 70-30 majority. The state’s congressional delegation has been majority Democrat since 2008 and it has gone from not having a Democrat in the senate for thirty years to both senators being Democrats. The state legislature is just a couple of seats away from a flip. In Georgia, the job and population growth, mostly around Atlanta, is mostly northeastern Yankees. Combined with the large African American vote, it was one of the first Southern states to flip. North Carolina will be next.
Someone pointed out that in Arizona, this election, with the difference being just 10,000 votes, Trump’s constant insults toward John McCain probably made the difference. He cost himself Arizona because he insulted a war hero and an American statesman.
For sure. I kind of saw that one coming.
Arizona also had notoriously infamous Sheriff Joe Arpaio, against whom a Latino coalition launched a voter registration drive back in 2016 to get him out of office and succeeded overwhelmingly, also picking up state legislative seats and flipping at least one Maricopa County congressional district. In Georgia, voter suppression when the current governor was secretary of state motivated Stacy Abrams who put together a group that registered more than half a million new Democratic voters in the state. But I would agree, Trump’s insults against McCain, which prompted his widow to openly endorse Biden, probably made the difference.
No voter suppression here. That’s a Democrat meme. Registering voters is fine. Lower turnout of gop voters Tuesday can be attributed to trumps feud with state gop officials. Republicans in this state are pathetic overall. Two weak and uninspiring senatorial candidates.
I’m at political ground zero. Republicans screwed up. Trump hurt, did help.
Demographics, big money, biased press, entertainment industrial complex, China opposition, Covid 19 issues doomed the incompetent establishment GOP and they deserve to be replaced. Either the conservative regroup in 2022 and 2024 or it will be too late. I am hoping President Trump endorses a Ron DeSantis, Cotton, Hawley, Cruz, Noem or any good conservative that upholds not Trump but his policies. That may win in 2022 for Congress and President in 2024 but if not so be it. You will see a vindictive surge of charges and challenges to President Trump and his followers to completely destroy his base. At least many SBC leaders will now come out of the political closet they have been in.
You find anything in today’s events connected in the least to Trump?
William , everything in today’s events are related to Trump. Trump is not great at political strategy nor playing the political game. He backed Kemp over better people who picked the typical establishment rich person Kelly L. The mistakes and the election lost was about in the past 12 months or so when all the terrible court rulings, legislative and state decisions were made to change election laws. Kemp and the Ga. Sec of State caved in to Stacy A. and sealed the deal then. Lesson here for the impact of CRT on events, everything is about race and every decision by a white person is rooted in racism so who could disagree with the voter demands made by the very powerful Stacy A? Trump has hurt his base and his cause with pushing it way too far past being reasonable. When the Immigration Reform Act was passed in 1965 , mostly with Republican votes, Lyndon Johnson , stated this will fundamentally change America. President Trump did fundamentally change the politics of America and there is a clear divide between the elites of both parties, the elites in education, the elites in the press, the elites of the money class and the elites of the powerful swamp forces. President Trump was the only force that could do what he did and the payback for his effort will be ongoing and fierce. I hope the populism movement he inspired carries on without his disruptive persona, if not the swamp won and will forever be in power. We shall see. Trump should have thrown in the towel a week ago , it would have been better politics but Trump is Trump. At least the last few days have probably knocked Pence out of the 2024 and perhaps beyond consideration. God was in control when Obama won, when Trump won and when Biden won.
Steve: You glossed over this in the other thread. Trump asked Pence to violate the constitution regarding counting electoral votes. Trump swore an oath to protect and defend the constitution. And you want more and more Trump (either Trump himself or a bunch of mini-Trumps).
Trump tried to incite a violent overthrow of the government today. He belongs in jail.
Dave Miller, I missed that reporting when scanning the fake news tonight. I guess it was reported by the real news. Nothing but facts there.
Name the sedition please
He asked them to go home peacefully. He did not incite it. The media with all their propaganda over the rioting during 2020 were the inciters.
Pay attention and look at facts. His speech was designed to incite, he’s been sending out tweets and social media posts for weeks planning this and at the end of his speech after whipping them up into a frenzy, he sent them down the street to the Capitol. This was intended to try and stop, with mob violence, Congress from certifying the electoral vote. That’s why his justice department ordered the USCP to stay away from the Capitol building. If this were a court case, and I certainly hope it becomes one, it would be a slam dunk.
Curtis, do you want William to send you a tinfoil hat?
Dave Miller, if the POTUS belongs in jail, then so does Nancy Polosi, Maxine Waters,and VP elect Harris belong in jail for their comments and actions during the Summer of 2020.
We need to be fair here. Trump was wrong and self-serving yesterday at the expense of the whole United States. At the same time, Polosi, Waters, Harris, and multitudes of others were just as wrong and self-serving prior to yesterday at the expense of the whole United States.
What happened yesterday was definitely incited by the POTUS. There is no doubt about that. However, he was not a singular cause of what happened yesterday. The events of yesterday has been moving toward an eruption for a long time.
Totally agree with you, Mr. Scott. Finally someone who is level-headed and spot on! It’s so sad that those on this site claim to be SBC. Really? Jesus help us! The body of Christ is being eaten alive with the cancerous disease of hypocrisy. It is beginning to be revealed that the “world” is actually a direct reflection of the current state of the church and the SBC, which unfortunately it’s fruit has become inedible to many. How can you be so “Pharisee“? I can hear Jesus beginning to gag as his church has become so lukewarm, that they would be willing to depose a person because he makes us feel uncomfortable by his way of speech and manners. Exchanging him for the Biden/Harris/Pelosi/Shumer/RINO/Elitists’ lot, that will result in even more lost lives of our innocent unborn children. Believe me…there will be more murdered children. On January 20th, 2021, the money will begin flowing again into the bank account of Planned Parenthood. I pray that this will prick your conscious. May we all repent and ask God for his forgiveness. Trump is not perfect and neither are any of us…so thankful there is One who is!
Amen!
I actually agree with much of what you said, C.B. I have told numerous people for the past 5 or so years, that Donald Trump was able to tap into a deep vein of discontent in our country. He did not create it, although especially over the past couple of months, he has carefully nurtured and cultivated it, with the disastrous results of Wednesday.
This is totally false to be honest. President Trump gave a speech setting forth the legal reasons for why he felt the election was stolen. You can argue with the legal argument he made or with the facts of his case, but to then argue that he was inciting the violent overthrow of the government is insane, totally insane. You are as totally irrational and over the top as you argue President Trump is in this statement.
.
Here it is. Dave Miller is irrational. The rioters, murderers, insurrectionists are, well, left undescribed. Classic. This comment would ordinarily be deleted but is allowed to demonstrate the thinking of some Trump supporters.
Great comment on that basis.
I did not speak to the violence since that was not the issue. Obviously, violence of any kind is a terrible sin and must be condemned. I spoke only to the narrow issue of whether President Trump in his speech “tried to incite a violent overthrow of the government”. I have listened to his speech and think that indeed it is “irrational” to conclude that he was inciting a riot and the overthrow of the government. I think some folks have allowed their anger and hatred of a person to warp their thinking and forget that he is also the most pro-life and pro-family person in the White House since President Reagan. He has appointed a number of wonderful Judges to the Federal Courts as well. If you think my post should be deleted, you are only wishing for an “echo” chamber where you can hear yourself think. Unfortunately, free speech is no longer permitted in this great nation.
Trump’s minions obviously thought he was. Do you think the idea of storming the capitol just came out of nowhere?
Some excerpts from the speech:
“They’re (the crowd) not going to take it any longer”
“We’re just not going to let that happen.” (allow Biden to become president)
“After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you.” A cowardly lie.
“And we fight. We fight like Hell and if you don’t fight like Hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”
I’ll say this once more: He pressured Pence to violate the constitution. So far no Trumper has responded to that.
Actually the quote is “we are going to walk down and cheer on our senators and representatives”. He later notes that they will walk down and “peacefully” let Congress know their thoughts. You can at least be accurate. Between 800,000 and 1 million people were in the mall; a few hundred attacked in an inappropriate manner, and their actions need to be condemned by everyone. To then leap to demean 800,000 to 1 million people is “irrational”. I do not follow Trump; I follow Jesus Christ; many in this crowd are also followers of Christ and are legitimately concerned over what is going to happen over the next four years. I think it would be good for everyone on this blog to pray for the President and this country rather than make “inaccurate” and “false” statements that are motivated by emotion rather than logic.
It is good to see that you are a constitutional scholar by the way. What President Trump suggested has never been done; whether it is unconstitutional has not been ruled on by a Court of Law yet.
Steven: Come on. The 12th amendment is written in plain, easy to understand language. Pence has sucked up to Trump for 4 years. You think he wouldn’t bow to his pressure if he thought he could get away with it? You think Pence didn’t want to be re-elected? Even a lot of far-right Trump supporters have said Pence did the only thing the constitution allowed him to do.
Pretty clear. You are right, all the protesters were not violent. But the violent ones took their cue from Trump. Notice that he didn’t end up walking down with them, as he said he would?
Obviously? Not so obvious to you, obviously. Warped thinking I recognize.
After Trump’s antics, including seditious resistance to a peaceful transfer of power and lies about voter fraud, on top of yesterday’s events, Republicans are going to be spending their money on defending Senate and House seats in red states in 2022. Even some Republicans are saying that their next shot at the White House might not come around for more than a decade and they are hunkering down for a blue tsunami in 2022. Hawley and Cruz are dead in the water. Watching the senate return after the riot last night, what we saw wasn’t so much repentance and regret as it was the fact that the reality has settled in that most of them will suffer the same fate as Loeffler and Perdue in 2022. And you can take that to the bank.
Jack,
I wouldn’t cash that check at the bank just yet. There would indeed be a blue tsunami if the next elections were this month. But November 2022 is a long way off and we have no idea what events will take place between now and November 2022. Remember, the midterms are historically a referendum on the CURRENT President not his or her past predecessor (if Trump is impeached or resigns, then after Pence’s brief term Trump would be two Presidents back, or if something happens to Biden and Kamala Harris becomes President, then Trump would be two Presidents back, or if both events happen Trump would be three Presidents back at that point). And midterms usually result in the loss of seats by the incumbent White House party so a blue tsunami would be an extraordinarily rare event.
As for Cruz and Hawley, neither comes up for election until 2024 which is even further off in the future. There are too many unknowns to make such a strong statement about the future.
If you are a Democrat, I wouldn’t be so boldly confident. If you are a Republican, I wouldn’t be so aggressively fatalistic. The future will tell when it arrives.
I’m an independent and I am quite confident that the Democrats will make record gains. Lots of reasons but I think I can cash the check and expect another one. I’m getting along in years, here about ten away from retirement and I don’t think I’ll see the GOP in control of either congress or the WH before then.
I would recommend some reading like Sean Trende’s book The Lost Majority; Michael Barone’s recent book on the history of the political parties; and some basic study in the subject of human behavior before you make such strong statements.
And you might want to actually look at who exactly is up for re-election and who their potential challengers in 2022, 2024, and 2026 might be. You might also factor in other issues that might affect these elections such as the growing anger at some of the Governors at their repressive COVID restrictions. By the way, the Georgia elections were a pretty unique, abnormal event in a perfect storm environment unlikely to be replicated in future years in states with different environments and electorates.
The only thing I would take to the bank is that your emotional, wishful thinking hot take in the heat of the moment will likely be wrong.
I have to agree with Scott. Never underestimate people’s ability to forget the past and rationalize and excuse bad behavior. I hope this incident relegates Trump to the compost pile of history, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
True.
Dave, though I’ve kept up with this blog for many years, I’ve never registered a comment, though I’ve wanted to many times. But I’m so disgusted and dismayed by what has happened today that I’ve felt compelled to register my support of what you’ve said, especially on point 4. Why have principled and influential Southern Baptist leaders been so guarded and muted during the past four years? What has happened to our prophetic voice? Like many Republican leaders, the answer must be that they’ve been too fearful of offending supporters and losing their positions of power and prestige. I’m heartsick.
Amen
It would be so much better for the nation if we had an objective , challenging, fact finding and fact reporting free press coupled with competent leadership from our government agencies. Who could not see this chain of events happening? As a Trump voter I have been to 3 major Trump rallies and many local events. If we had competent leadership who really wanted to prevent, contain and minimize the riots that happened today, it could have been done. This was a well planned, well coordinated , well financed take over by antifa type organizations to create the turmoil we now have. If everyone who committed an unlawful act or did not follow a lawful order was arrested, booked and identified it would help the nation heal our division. I am of the opinion, based on TV coverage and the actions of the leaders of the mob that they were there to fuel the flames and insure the chaos happened. As many people as possible should have been arrested and their background investigated and made public. Trump supporters would not pursue the actions of this mob and the efforts of the ones who led the charge seem to be very organized, trained and very similar to the leaders of the unrest the past year. If this is tin foil hat talk , so be it. However , we will never know as The mainstream press and internet reporting is solid anti Trump. There will no probing , just the reporting as proven fact that this was all Trump supporters plan from the beginning. I do not trust the press nor the internet gateway keepers Am I crazy? I hope not Law enforcement , hundreds of arrest should have been made if for no other reason than id for deeds done and future reference. I have lost confidence and trust in our national law enforcement agencies and national agencies, including the FBI, CIA, many large local city police departments and the federal bureaucracy that is part of the swamp. So the plan to destabilize our nation, to undermine our confidence in our institutions and our have Americans lose confidence in America is working as it was hoped. Senator Schumer said when Trump was elected that the deep state would get rid of him , if he opposed their plans and he was right. Mock me or whatever, tell me I worship… Read more »
You need to stop reading fake news sites.
Dave Miller, that is the usual dismissive tone of those who disagree with someone’s opposing opinions. Does the current narrative of events not coincide and mirror the actions advocated by Alinsky? Did Senator Schumer not say what i para quoted? The FBI , CIA and other federal institutions have become political and more powerful than they were intended to be. Russian conclusion was fake news not election trouble issues. Police stand by and watch violent crime right before their eyes because the “mayor” told them to? The complete destabilization of our society is what is happening and my narrative is based on current events that lead me to make certain decisions , based on what is happening. I offered a valid solution on what should have happened today regarding the lawbreakers, arrest, booking, identification and honest reporting of who did what. That I did not get from fake news, it was a good idea that would prevent people, like me, who question the true events of the riots today. How strict have the same D.C police and federal troops been in the past several months protecting the citizens for lawbreaking crowds. Why was maximum, overwhelming law enforcement presence ordered at the Capitol , for sure the obvious flashpoint. So that is why you have this site, opinions based on facts and personal beliefs try to gain validity in the public market place. Reference some fake news i cited, thanks.
Facts? You mean like the fact that this all happened on Jan 6, 2021.
Trump is the President and the leader of the Executive Branch.
Trump and his people organized and executed the rally in Washington.
The rioters did exactly what he told them to do.
I don’t have any great hope that Democrats will suddenly become unifying inspiring leaders. But they were not in charge today. Trump was and he is responsible for the seditious acts that not only took place under his watch, but with his blessing.
I rarely ever (maybe not once in over 12 plus years) have agreed with anything Strider states on SBC Voices. However, I will state he is right about who was ultimately responsible for yesterday.
The evidence that he is right comes from the POTUS himself:
“Trump told his morning crowd at the Ellipse that he would go with them to the Capitol, but he didn’t. Instead he sent them off with incendiary rhetoric.
“If you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore,” he said. ‘Let the weak ones get out,’ he went on. ‘This is a time for strength.’
His lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, told the crowd, ‘Let’s have trial by combat.'”
What President Trump said and did yesterday was wrong. That does not negate the many good things he has done during the four years of his presidency. However, the gravity of what he did yesterday will darken all the good he has done. He will be remembered by the living for yesterday. He will be remembered by historians in the future by yesterday.
I am saddened by yesterday. I would believe that most of you are also. Yet, for Southern Baptists, such sadness is nothing new. We have seen leaders among our own ranks who did good things during their leadership. Yet, they will always be remembered by an event or events that brought tarnish to their memories.
We must remember that men fail, all of us fail. Yet, we are not redeemed by men. We are not keep by men. Our lives today and in the future are in the hands of the One Holy God. The lesson here for me is to stay focused on King Jesus and Him alone. Lastly, we must guard our own hearts, lest we also fall to our own sinful devices.
The prophet of iowa has spoken to disagree is nonchristian.
Thank you for the courage to publish this article. You are correct. I’m not from Georgia, so I wasn’t voting on 1/5/2021. However, for the first time in my adult life I voted for the Democrat nominee for president. WHY? I could not vote for the Republican nominee because he lacked integrity, honesty, morals, and compassion. My vote this year reminded me that CHARACTER was more important than PARTY.
With all due respect, your comment “he lacked integrity, honesty, morals and compassion” are disingenuous. Please provide names and positions of politicians who are honest, etc. One hears so much negativity about President Trump they forget the nasty comments made by all politicians.
Trump’s latest tweet:
It’s a great tweet. I agree with every word of it.
See William for the tinfoil.
Agreed Dave. Don’t know when you wrote and posted today. Events in D.C. further cast a shadow on it all. Hopefully the party and country can get past this and some new leaders will emerge for the future. A lot of good and godly people supported Trump and are hurting and confused right now. Some of us are not surprised by his behavior. I personally believe he is a narcissist and his behavior is very predictable. Uncertain days ahead for our nation for sure.
In times like these, we need a Savior and an Anchor. Grateful for receiving a Kingdom that cannot be shaken. Heb. 12:28.
Just before Trump’s insurrection at the capital.
Funny, I told my wife in 2016, when Christians were touting that God had Trump win to save our country, I stated that maybe he won because God was judging us. I said what if Trump makes it so Republicans can’t win in future elections. I don’t know what the future holds, but I’m starting to think maybe I was on to something. I agree with your eval Dave.
I believe Trump was a tool to show us how wrong our values were.
Dave, at least now we have CRT as a tool to show us what our values should be.. Who got their values from Trump? Perhaps Hunter Biden?
He didn’t say anybody got them from Trump. He said Trump revealed them.
Yes. The fact that Christians debased themselves with Trumpism as they did (I speak of Trumpists, not just Trump voters-there is a difference).
A guy like Steve jettisons discernment to join the Trumpist cult. Seen this often.
To vote for Trump? A choice. To venerate him? Yikes
I give you appreciation for that, Dave Miller. There is a difference between “Trumpists” and “Trump voters.” There is a vast difference. You are right as the rain about that.
It seems that many of our brothers in the faith cannot see the difference.
As a Trump voter, I always cringed when I saw other followers of Christ using Messianic language in reference to the POTUS. In my opinion, that is either blasphemy or comes too uncomfortably close to it.
For many of us who voted for Trump, it was not in support of him necessarily, it was about voting against policies spawned in hell.
I try to clarify that, because I always thought that way but people who voted Trump often reacted defensively to criticisms directed at the Trumpistas. I try to clarify in posts like this.
There’s been a run on the surplus tinfoil. I’ve got a couple of rolls of sheet metal, though, for the hardcore cases.
William, send one to First Baptist, Dallas, Southern Seminary, and Samaritan’s Purse.
Give me your address. I’ll put you first in line. 🙂
William, I would give you my address, but that would leave you without the one you are wearing.
Condemnation editorials were MIA when the WH was almost over taken this past summer or cities burned by riots. The issue is far bigger than just Trump and started serious escalation in 2016 as Democrats worked 4 years to overturn an election. If you try to dismiss this as all Trump you are not being objective. “A house divided cannot stand”. Yesterday was awful…..so we’re the last four year efforts of Clinton, Pelosi, and Schumer. Trump’s term is ending but major problems remain. An unarmed 14 year female Air Force veteran was shot and killed by police. Where is the outrage for that shooting?
Here it is, the equivalence of race riots, antifa, the autonomous zones with the takeover of our seat of government and the shutdown of our democratic, constitutional processes. It is willful ignorance, a waste of time to counter the point.
I have some sympathy for the protestor who died and her family. As a vet, she took an oath and violated it. The classic parental warning to their neurologically undeveloped children is ‘wrong place, wrong time, wrong people’ will hurt you. Adults should know better and bear responsibility for their own decisions.
A minor point is that the failure of LE to manage protests elsewhere emboldened these but that doesn’t alleviate responsibility.
Is your opinion the same about other unarmed people protesting shot by police? Missed it in past comments….
Typical. Avoid the subject at hand. Make it about what didn’t happen, not what did.
Rudd. Do you practice situational ethics? Does bad behavior by leftists justify bad behavior by Trump’s supporters?
If THEY do it, then its okay for US?
This is called WGATABOUTISM. It isn’t biblical.
Neither is decrying only one side…..if you promote ethics do both…..sadly missing…
Unprecedented, forcible takeover of our seat of government. Maybe to be compared with the British in the war of 1812. You want to make a moral equivalence out of it. Idiocy.
Belief the Democrats had nothing to do with yesterday is complete dishonesty. Hyperbole to compare with War of 1812 is example.
Not hyperbole at all. He’s simply saying that’s the last time that rioters invaded the Capitol which is the center of our democracy. Sounds like you’re the one being dishonest.
Care to comment on the takeover of the capitol building?
I would…
How in the world were a few hundred or less “good ole boys” (rank amatures) able to take control in a matter of minutes the seat of power (the capital building of the USA!) of the strongest nation on earth? Also I would add putting hundreds of career politicians on the run after cowering under their desks?!? Our enemies saw this and have trained operatives that probably now see how easy it would be… I hope the “public servants” see the gapping hole in their security… This is a huge problem.
Agreed. They might have simply been unprepared. They might have been Trump sympathizers. They might have been told by higher ups to take little action.
As a former police officer, I have seen police corruption as well as police incompetence, in small towns and in cities larger than Washington. And I am like you, I don’t know if what happened is simply a case of unpreparedness and underestimation, if it is a few bad apples who sympathized with the rioters, or if it is outright corruption in the upper ranks. And I doubt if I will ever know, at least this side of heaven.
I’m just going to say that attempts to equate anything the Democrats have done with this horrific act of sedition by a sitting president zaps the credibility of anyone trying to push it. The fact of the matter is that your personal bias lets you see what you want to see and ignore what doesn’t fit in your box.
What we need is a much greater understanding of what living in a democratic constitutional republic means, that everyone has rights and the boundaries are where the next person’s begin, that sometimes people I agree with are going to win enough elections to have things go their way and lose enough elections to have things go the other way. The way to have a revolution and bring change happens regularly, like clockwork, at the ballot box which, in spite of all the lies, is an accurate reflection of the will of the people.
I’m reading reports that Trump was actually calling Senators during the insurrection, to convince them to delay the certification. I’ve also read that at least some of the terrorists were talking about executing Pence as a traitor.
Most of the demonstrators were peaceful. The media, true to its hypocritical self, tried to blame them, rather than the few who were there just to start trouble. Remember how the media called all the riots of six months ago, “Peaceful demonstrations” while they were burning, looting and taking over parts of several cities? President Trump condemned the violence in DC and asked the demonstrators to go home peacefully. We need some truth on this site, not just knee jerk reactions to media propaganda.
He did both. As CB pointed out, with quotes, he and his lawyer incited the mob. After the damage was done, he asked them to go home. I think he only did the latter because he saw the backlash that was being directed at him, even from his own people. He isn’t concerned about threats to lawmakers, he isn’t concerned about danger (or death) to the rioters. He isn’t concerned about how this looks to the world. But he is, and always has been acutely concerned about himself, and only himself. If we want to look on the bright side, perhaps his lock on the GOP and this appalling nonsense about him running in 2024 will be derailed by yesterday’s debacle. It’s a heavy price to pay.
Trump has been whipping up his supporters into a frenzy since before the election. He had a good idea he was going to lose. This attempted insurrection was not a surprise. Helen Keller could have seen it coming. My only surprise was that it didn’t happen sooner.
Trump did some good things while in office but also did some bad things and yesterday was easily by far the worst thing and completely disqualifies him from being President any time in the future (I didn’t support the goofy partisan impeachment a year ago but I would support it for the events of yesterday).
While there are legitimate questions regarding some of the election practices in some states, these need to be investigated and if fraud is legitimately found then it should be dealt with. However there appears to be no legitimate evidence at this time that a state’s electoral tally would change.
The riots this summer AND the riot yesterday were inexcusable and unjustified regardless of whatever grievance a rioter may have had. It is also inexcusable to excuse or justify any riot. If you condemned one riot but justified the other then you really need to adjust your moral compass as it is totally warped by your partisanship. If you condemned one but were silent about the other your moral compass is also in need of repair. YOU DO NOT SOLVE PROBLEMS THiS WAY!
Going forward the strongest need in our churches seems to be that both Never Trump and Pro Trump in the church have forgotten how to act like grace filled Christians when dealing with each other. We want grace for ourselves but not for the guy who sees things a little differently, Instead of relentlessly questioning the Christianity of each other, we need to extend grace to each other.
Also, let’s stop believing conspiracy theories about the JFK assassination, the moon landing, 9/11 as an inside job, Obama being a Muslim, Russian collusion, 5G Towers or evil voting machines. The Lord isn’t honored by the tin foil hat.
That’s all for now.
Strange how the media could call the riots of sic months ago “peaceful protests” yet panic over what happened in DC? Where was the outrage over the AntiFa and the BLM when they were burning down business and occupying cities?
False narrative.
This comment, Curtis, is a perfect example of being one sided in the condemnation of rioters. Much of the media is indeed guilty of a glaring double standard on this issue but if you do the same thing on the other side then you will be stooping down to their hyper-partisan worldly level when as Christians we should be operating at a higher standard.
I am referring to Curtis’s comment not Dave Miller’s in this instance.
I can’t stop thinking of the Biblical word “license,” and also Paul’s caution not to bite and devour one another, but to walk in the Spirit.
How has politics become our license to sin? Are we using our freedom to indulge in angry words, plotting, dissensions, factions, name-calling, mockery and disdain? In providing a leading public example of those behaviors, Mr. Trump helped give license to those sins. Other politicians did too, but he has succeeded the most. But he’s not a scapegoat. Christians don’t get scapegoats. It’s our personal choice every day in Christ whether to give in to that license or to please Him. If we’re acting wayyyy out of character and driving people away due to our politically-related words and behavior, then maybe we need to cut off that arm.
Dave, I think you’re spot on brother.
I’m sure you are a fine man and pastor of the gospel, however I strongly disagree with your position on our president and election process. You clearly are not a President Trump fan. I like many Christians am a strong supporter. Time will tell who is right, however I believe we can agree that if voting fraud was indeed the case then the integrity of our democracy is at stake which I know you must understand the significance. Christ indeed is still on His throne over this all and our trust must remain in Him, however to discount what has truly happened as nonsense is simply short-sighted and naive. The heart of our nation must be guarded with a much more reasonable response than what you have put forth.
Any comment on the forcible takeover of the capitol?
Except that time has already told but you are not listening. No Christian should still be a Trump supporter unless it is with several caveats and footnotes.
I don’t think the demonic, Kate Turabian, allows caveats in her manual filled with rules to destroy the minds of young scholars and educational journeymen seeking higher education so they can add titles to their names, proving to all the world they are sound of mind and have an established future in the wonderous halls of academia.
I think she is a footnote only type of gal. . .or rather you might think, type of demonic, depending on how many times she laughingly sent chapters of your dissertation back covered in blood red ink.
Therefore, decide this day if you shall footnote your distain for the POTUS and continue to support his policies. Or, if you shall make statements for supporting him, and add caveats to proclaim your limitations as to why you do not trust him completely.
Kate does not allow both in formal writing. You must decide formal declaration with footnotes or an informal rant laced with caveats. Make your decision wisely. I hear Black Helicopters are watching us right now.
So you’re not disturbed by seeing people invade the capitol with the intention of taking hostages, shouting and chanting that they were going to hang the Vice President, murdering a police officer, wearing shirts that celebrated Auschwitz, neo-nazis, waving far more KKK, Trump and Confederate flags than American flags and bringing in weapons to commit violence because their leader gave them a command and then became a coward and stayed at the white house while they went and paid the price for doing his dirty work? Christians are not going to come out of this well if we don’t start hearing from some of those self-proclaimed “leaders” pretty soon.
So a “leader” speaks to cheering, adoring crowds. He tells the most outrageous and easily falsifiable lies, and his followers believe him. He encourages them to do things he is not willing to do himself. Tell me that’s not the mark of a cult. (no, it doesn’t mean everyone who voted for Trump is a cultist).
Even some of his ardent supporters, staff, cabinet members, are resigning and rebuking him. It was paid for in blood, but I hope this is the death knell of Trump as a force in our society.
Since the 2015/primary there has been a song that has repeatedly surfaced in my thoughts, including a few minutes ago before I read your comment I had just played it again.
“Cult of Personality” by Living Colour
Esp lyrics such as:
I know your anger, I know your dreams
I’ve been everything you want to be
I exploit you still you love me
I tell you one and one makes three
You gave me fortune
You gave me fame
You gave me power in your own god’s name
I’m every person you need to be
Cult of personality…
Holy cow. That is creepily accurate.
The bottom line is, Trump has been crying voter fraud for months. People believed him. They spread the word. Fox spread the word. Newsmax spread the word. Corrupt politicians spread the word. Once people were convinced there was going to be election fraud, they began seeing it everywhere. And it just spread further. You had nuts like Sidney Powell and Guiliani and Mike Lindell declaring fraud and God’s miraculous overturning of the election. You had people like Franklin Graham, who ought to have known better, jumping on the bandwagon. Just because a lot of people believe something, and are mad about it, doesn’t make it true. 60-ish lawsuits thrown out, including at the Supreme Court, and people began saying the justices were being threatened and cowed. When places like Fox, who had to admit some semblance of reality, declared Biden the winner, they were said to be “in on it”. Pence could only do one thing, under the constitution. And when he did it, he was declared a traitor. By Christians.
You think one man can’t perpetrate a mass delusion, and mass hatred and violence? Look to your history.
If you are a preacher, teacher, missionary, or pastor who shares the biblical gospel and biblical truth, yet you think that the permanent cancellation of Donald Trump’s Twitter account is a good thing, you are very short sighted.
Of course if you teach and preach the Scripture like Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, or Raphael Warnock, it probably will not affect your future use of social media in the slightest.
On a scale of 1 to preachers propping up hate-spewing authoritarians, how short-sighted are we talking?
Edited to say: I think that a lot of harm has been done these years to our evangelical Christian witness related to how we have cozied up politically the last many years.
If we are worried abt being censored online well, that’s possible yes. But I don’t think that’s anywhere close to what our biggest social media related worries should be right now.
I’m inclined to think it’s a good thing. The action doesn’t impact biblical truth at all. Neither you, nor I, nor any tech ceo knows what the long view of this means.
William Thornton and Kimberly Koonts,
My concern is censorship. I am not defending the POTUS in my comment. I am concerned with a door of acceptableness of censorship being opened that could open even wider in this nation.
Big tech is capable, at this time, to censor any one’s comments they desire. There have been reports of individuals that due to the content of their comments, Big Tech has censored them. In some of those cases, Big Tech has admitted doing so.
In the future, if a person makes declarations against what we could call “socially embraced sins” Big Tech could censor those declarations under the banner of “hate speech” and get by with doing so with little or no public outcry. An example is taking a strong stand against abortion. I believe abortion to be the murder of the innocents. I believe it to be the national sin of the United States. That is not a popular opinion in society. It is not even a popular opinion among many Christians.
If I make declarations against abortion on social media, there may come a time, maybe sooner than we think in my opinion, when Big Tech could censor me and their censorship of me would meet little or no outcry because the populace has become accustomed to censorship.
Again, let me state that my position here has far less to do with the POTUS than it does to what could become an acceptable censorship in this nation upon biblical truth as proclaimed by those who embrace orthodox, biblical faith and declare the teachings of Scripture to be the primary authority for human conduct in life.
It’s somewhat complicated. Should government manage private speech platforms? Newspapers or their hi tech cousins? I’m less concerned about FB and Twitter than government. If socialism is such a ogre that makes us wary, what does one call government control of media?
There are alternative platforms that will rise. The country may need a referee but should be wary of legislators trying to fix the problem. Seldom works, often aggravates the matter.
In any case, this is a political matter, not necessarily biblical.
I agree that it is a political matter. However, with me there is one caveat of consideration. What is a political matter at the moment can become a biblical matter rather quickly.
Regarding Socialism, I do think there is ample evidence in our culture that we, who consider free enterprise as a good thing, should be wary. Let me change your Grimms Fairytale creature the “ogre” to another fairytale creature, if I may to illustrate my point.
Socialism is the “troll” living under the bridge of the free enterprise system and his desire to rule the bridge is gaining acceptability in many places in our nation. The censorship of expression could be/is a useful weapon in his arsenal.
Why are born again believers so afraid of Socialism?
Socialism is an inferior method of wealth distribution but it’s fair to ask the question. I’d ask why so many so many religious liberals are so enamored with socialism.
The superior method of wealth distribution is to be handed a paycheck after a weeks worth of labor for those physically able. That is how I get money for me and my family.
…and then hand it over to your wonderful wife dor the final distribution.
It sounds like you have a spy looking at my checkbook?
William, as you did not go to SWBTS you did not have the privledge of sitting under Dr. Curtis Vaughn, probably the foremost Southern Baptist scholar on Acts. He explains socialism from a Biblical perspective. His textbook is well worth the read and might be available on Amazon.
I’m not afraid of it for me. I have very few years, if any, left here. However, I have seen socialism up close and personal. It is very destructive to any populace who embraces it and it gets worse as it progresses. One major problem with a socialistic worldview is that it places man the center of all things.
A biblical worldview places God at the center of all things. A socialistic worldview is in diametric opposition to a biblical worldview.
Gerry,
Socialism steals money from someone who earned it to give to someone who didn’t earn it. That’s not right.
Scott, Socialist Democrat’s (and socialist “others”) would agree with your first statement (but would add those who have it really didn’t earn it but were just using their privilege) your second sentence the socialists among us would change it to “That IS right”
I agree with you, both sentences
CB,
I think that I agree with Bill Mac on the idea of the amount of potential harm one can do being the big driver of the acceptable censorship.
That said, I won’t say that you don’t make some valid points of things that need to be considered. There are many things that have happened the last few years ago that I would have sworn was too absurd to ever actually happen, and boy do I keep getting proven wrong over and over on that.
It is not irrational to think that anti-abortion or religious speak could quickly become considered hate speech or censored. In some spheres now it is nearly considered hate speech to express traditional views of sex (what is a real woman?) or marriage.
But I don’t think that worries about how these things might play out should prevent us from taking actions against people who are causing actual harm in the here and now. I’m totally fine with Trump being blocked.
But [censorship] is something I think you are correct in thinking it needs to be on the radar and a close eye watching to ensure that rights to freedoms of religion or speech remain protected in general, maybe not necessarily in just a social media context but i think we will see it spilling out into other aspects of our lives.
I think it has to do with the amount of harm a person can do. The most powerful man in the world incited a violent insurrection against the United States government. Blood was shed. Authorities believe a Capitol policeman was murdered. He has radicalized followers who will literally do anything he asks them to. I think that’s worth a ban.
Bill Mac, please read my comment to William Thornton and Kimberly Koonts.
I share your concerns, but I’m reluctant to advocate suppressing one entity’s freedom (Twitter) to ensure another’s (Trump’s), especially when the latter has used his freedom to incite violent overthrow of the government.
Bill Mac, The POTUS did, and maybe with willful intent, incite the events in question. He and Rudy Giuliani incited people to do what they did. That cannot be honestly disputed by rational people.
However, the political leanings of the Big Tech personalities in question are toward the extreme left. When Trump opened the door to censor him, they gladly walked/jumped through it.
My concern is that they could do the same to people who embrace a true biblical Christian faith.
I fully agree, and I hope it doesn’t happen. But in the end, I think it is within their rights to do so.
They are within their rights to do so. The sword of freedom/free speech cuts both ways. That’s why I am uncomfortable with Trump being censored permanently.
I understand the POTUS has options. I also understand he did what he did Wednesday and it hurt the nation. I agree with you about the organization BLM and also Antifa. They set this past summer on fire and there was not a lot of outrage in the media or, frankly, from a lot of Christians who are very outraged and vocal now about what happened this past Wednesday.
That’s why I question this permanent censorship to the POTUS. It could happen to you or me or any one who stands for and speaks publicly to biblical truth.
Again, I state, the POTUS was wrong and careless in his words and deeds this past week. After all, he’s the POTUS and like Harry Truman stated a few decades ago, “The Buck Stops Here.”
You violate the terms of service, that you agreed to when you sign up, you are removed. The internet is a big place, take your clicks elsewhere.
CB, I agree with you overall… Here is an article from 4 years ago of some police killed due to BLM “peaceful protest” and unless I am badly mistaken no response from any SBC leader nor not a lot from US media either… Now it is NOT a take over of the capitol building of course but it was an assault on law and order and the murder of policemen. Given it barely turned the medias head and our SBC leaders seemed to miss it all together (Russell Moore is one) and the apathy showed during the burning of businesses, cars and those hurt during the BLM rally (and from some reports in main stream media , killed) I tend to see those quiet then and screaming like a mashed cat now as suspect in what they are outraged about.
People should be upset from Wed events and prosecution should happen in courts as allowed by law. But if Wed was the first time someone spoke against rioting, looting, burning peoples businesses and beating up and killing of innocents and police officers then I ain’t listening cause you are super selective in what to be outraged about. (“you” here is not YOU CB)
And before some knee jerker accuses me of being a Trumper, I did not vote for a republican nor a democrat in the last 4 presidential elections. I voted third party in 3, abstained on the presidential ballot in 1.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/09/us/dallas-police-shooting.html
The nightmare continues. Trump supporter Lin Wood has had a post taken down from Parler accusing Mike Pence of treason and calling for his execution.
That could be enough for something if he did that, and I do believe you.
Rob, perhaps it was hyperbole, but when you’ve got nutcases whipped up into a frenzy for the last 6 months, what do you think is going to happen? Remember Jan. 6? And no, I’m not on Parler. Not in this life or the next.