1) What happened to two spaces after a period? That’s what I was taught back in good old days, but now it seems no one likes two spaces anymore. What’s up?
2) Should I capitalize divine pronouns? I was taught that as respect to God. But even modern language Bibles don’t do it. What’s up?
These are weighty issues which I hope we can discuss in a calm and rational way!
2 spaces after a period is a new on on me. I agree with the capitalizing God and Lord and Scripture… I really don’t like seeing god when it refers to the God of the Bible.
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I have never heard nor have I seen two spaces after a period. Are they pronouns? I thought God’s name is God.
Two spaces after a period went away with movable type.
Capitalizing divine pronouns is a matter of preference. I don’t do it because honor is best bestowed by means other than grammar. For similar reasons, I don’t write Satan with a lowercase S.
The third theological question: Why hast thou, Dave, not responded to mine own email?
I haven’t seen an email, Chris.
Actually, Chris, the two spaces after a period (full stop) started with movable type. It allowed typographers to distinguish between that and a comma (half stop).
Rick,
That’s along the lines of what I meant, I should have put it better. When movable type went away, two spaces after a period went away.
I find it is much easier to be consistent in typing if I just use one space after a period. For one, the spacing can appear awkward, and two, if I accidentally type two spaces somewhere in a document, I use the find and replace tool to find every instance of two spaces and replace it with one.
I always try to capitalize pronouns for God, but then I find it tedious. maybe I should stop.
Dave, Maybe you need to make a visit to Aunt Kate Turabian about the two space thing. That is frowned upon in the world of academia today. Also the question of capitalizing of divine pronouns is to follow a consistence in the usage. I think we should declare war on Kate and leave Calvinists and whatever a Non-Calvinist alone. She has brought more stress into the lives of Southern Baptist pastors seeking a seminary degree than any and all stripes of Calvinism and Arminianism together. Had she been alive during the days of Calvin and Servetus, I would have started… Read more »
Yes to two spaces, and yes to capitalizing pronouns referring to God. It is proper. (:-)
An “in the flesh” Turabian persecutor of many a poor preacher has spoken. 🙂
I had some very, scary nightmares back in my seminary days where Kate Turabian was chasing me with a typewriter. I shudder to just think about those times. And, I always capitalize God when I’m talking about Him, and not the false gods.
DAvid
Vol,
No woman has ever caused me to cry as much as Kate Turabian.
I did not even cry as much when the girl I loved at 16 more than life itself told me her daddy would not let her go out with me because he had been told it was me who set Dr. Bryant’s hay barn on fire.
Yes sir, Aunt Kate Turabian is a heart breaker if ever one lived in this world. 🙂
true, CB, true…
🙂
CB
I have a computer program that converts my docs to Turabian… not a tear in the house for me!
I love it. Sure makes inserting footnotes sweet too… if I am about finished and I want to eliminate something or add something… it does it all!
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Bob Hadley, In all truth I had one of those programs. I got it all going in my PC. Two days later lightening struck my house and fried all of our computers and several others things. I believe that happened due to the rage of jealousy Kate Turabian went into when I told her I did need to have her on my heart and mind so much anymore. 🙂 There has never been a more hard-hearted, spiteful woman than Kate Turabian. BTW, you can’t kill her either. She is now in her seventh edition. I think that has to do… Read more »
I have to meet this woman.
No Lydia,
You must never meet Kate Turabian. For you to combine forces with with Aunt Kate would be a nightmare for Southern Baptist preachers who frequent Baptist blogs and adhere to the comp. persuasion.
Visions of the Spanish Inquisition come to mind. 🙂
Computer word editing programs automatically adjust spacing. Two spaces are no longer necessary. If I type on an old fashion typewriter, I will use two spaces after a period, if I can remember to do so, if I ever even see an old fashion typewriter.
Dave,
I totally resisted the move from two spaces to one until I previewed my “SBC Voices” articles and discovered the formatting was goofy whenever I used two spaces.
As Nathan told another David, “Thou art the man!”
Yep. That’s what has me thinking about it. When you use two spaces in WordPress, it messes up the left column. That’s what has me flustered.
Notice the offset “What’s up” under point 1 above. That is what happens in this program when two spaces are used.
At least we’re now talking about crucial theological matters. One space is great. Two are a waste of either paper or bytes, depending on the medium. As far as capitalized pronouns, I don’t like them so much. In Bible translation, there are times where the pronoun may refer to God or it may not. When it’s capitalized, the translator has made the decision for me. By the way, I dislike ‘red letter’ Bibles too. I find them harder to read with my old eyes. Plus, I have had people tell me that the red words are more important than the… Read more »
John – Its always been my opinion that the ” Red Letter Edition ” highlited words that Christ spoke or are believed to have been spoken by Him. If true one way or the other , it does help us lessors understand the layout .
Hate the red letters.
Jeremy Parks,
Did not some publisher produce a Bible with “green Letters” at one time?
I had an eastern regional head of the United Church of Christ ( UCC ) tell me when I asked how he squared Bible verses in Leviticus with the acceptance of homosexuality – First he said that the UCC put more emphasis on ” what Jesus said in the Bible than anything else “. Then he announced that the meeting was over. A history professor associated with the UCC has his name in the margin of that study material Lifeway has done ; and, UCC has taken over a lot of Congregational churches that were in trouble particularly in the… Read more »
My computer’s running short on spaces so I’m trying to conserve them. Only one space after a sentence. Perhaps the two-space deal arose because of the spring & wedge design of the alignment system of Ottmar Merganthaler’s linotype machine.
Divine pronouns capitalized? It just doesn’t feel right when I don’t do that.
Dave,
I still use two spaces after a period. Perhaps C.B. is right about Turabian because that was the standard style prescribed at Arlington Baptist College.
in the tetragrammaton, ALL of the letters are capitalized
some thoughts:
Through the millenia, what accurate sources can answer WHEN ‘sentences’ with punctuation and spacing began to be a part of sacred Scripture?
This is important, because punctuation and spacing, when added to translations of texts, can add to or change meaning . . .
it’s a complicated topic, but very important for those whose doctrines depend on a strict literal interpretation of sacred Scripture
Sorry to break this to you men, but Aunt Kate is semi-retired in SBC Seminary land. She has been replaced with her second cousin Sally Betty Littleerrors (or SBL for short). Ms. Littleerrors does not like two spaces after a sentence, nor does she tolerate the capitalization of a divine pronoun. Ms. Littleerrors is a master of disguise and she has many subtle supplements floating around that confuse the masses. She is a tricky lady!
Jim G.
The two space thing is a change since the move to computers over typewriters/printing presses. I was taught in high school to do two spaces, but the rule is now one space.
Capitalizing pronouns that stand in for God is a “style” thing: several seminaries publish a Turabian addendum that says do it, but the official style is not to do so. It does not feel right not to do it, but the “rules” of English seem to be drifting that way.
I learned to type on a manual, non-electric typewriter. You young whippersnappers should try that sometime. It will flat wear your fingers out. My daughter makes fun of how hard I type now – it all goes back to learning to type the hard way.
I practiced on one of those manual typewriters in the day. I see them at antique auctions now. I would love to have one to place as a landmark.
Bruce H,
I have a “Remington” manual typewriter for sale. If interested let me know. Make offer.
Thanks, Jack. That is a great manual typewriter and would look great. I can pick one up at a local auction for about $25. It wouldn’t be worth your time and effort for the mail process necessary to get it to me. Consider an antique shop on consignment if you are really considering getting rid of your typewriter or craigslist.com.
Thanks again for thinking of me, Jack.
Thank you, Dave! I type real hard, too. Cannot help it. Wear out laptops like crazy. I had to type 40 words a minute with NO typos or grammatical errors on a manual in order to get into the school of Journalism at UofGA. Now I type fast and hard.
Generally, my keyboard has several letters worn off the keys because of the force with which I type.
wow, Dave…calm down, Brother!
Dave,
I had an old hardshell Campbellite heretic female for a typing teacher. That was 2 days after God formed dirt. She carried a wooden yardstick with her and those of us found mis-performing, including NOT allowing 2 spaces after a period received that yardstick on our forearms.
Yeah, Jake. The American eduction system was different back in the World War I era, wasn’t it?
Sorry.
My first typewriter was an Underwood, with a fancy iron frame. I think the last patent date on it was 1917, which means it was just a little younger than my father. Heavy as all get out, but it worked. Two spaces were the rule. In seminary, I bought an electric. I still put in two spaces after a period, except that sometimes my finger was a little heavy, and it turned out to be more than two. Then I got a “color computer,” I think a Tandy, and I still put in two spaces. Guess what? I STILL DO,… Read more »
CB, Amen and Amen! During my first D.Min seminar, we had to complete a Turabian exercise: find a certain amount of mistakes and cite the ref in Turabian. Of 15 in the class, 13 failed, including this writer (arrrg, 3rd person how I dislike Thee or thee). We were given a 2nd chance, highly unusual declared the professor, but since 13 failed, grace would be extended our way. Four of us worked together and compared papers; encouraged by the professor to collaborate. We submitted identical papers. Identical! And we received four different scores. In the end, I hired an editor… Read more »
This might explain why I always got conflicting instructions from one class to the next during my pursuit of my MA a couple of years ago. Each professor seemed to have their own interpretation of Turabian. My first paper in every class was like a feeling out process of how the instructor was going to interpret the Turabian rules.
I still don’t like Turabian.
Fortunately, I went to a Baptist college and then to two Baptist Seminaries. By the time I came to write my Master’s Thesis for seminary I was well versed in Turabian. So, naturally they switched to another manual of style. Then, as it was nearing the end of the CR, professors were being changed faster than gas prices. I ended up starting my thesis with one professor–a nice, predicatable Southern Baptist professor I had for several classes, and then he was gone and I got one who transferred from Notre Dame. I would guess the rewrites on my thesis were… Read more »
Dave,
I’m with you. Finally two issues (at the same time) that we can agree on! Miracles never cease 🙂 Maybe there’s hope for the SBC after all!
I never even heard of only doing one space as being proper to rules until Seminary… now come to find out a lot of people do it. At SBTS, we had our own manual of style–it said one or two were acceptable, so long as we showed consistency.
Two spaces was used on fixed pitch typefaces (now called “monospaced”–i.e. any typewriter other than the IBM Executive which had proportional spacing and some of their typesetters which used a similar approach–to recognize the difference between an intra-sentence space and a space after a period and to create a little extra white space. The concept of monospacing or fixed pitch is that the distance travelled by the typewriter carriage is the same for all characters. The Executive series assigned different movement “steps” to narrow characters like ‘i’ (two if I recall correctly) v. normal width (three) v. wide characters like… Read more »
Greg, two questions: 1) How do you know all that, and 2) why?
Frank,
🙂
David
Short version? 1. I repaired typewriters while I took a year of from college from 1983-1984. Worked exclusively on IBM Selectrics (and their Remington Rand knockoffs) and IBM Executives. I also continued working on typewriters for my last year at A&M while I finished up the last 12 hours of my BS in Chemistry. 2. Had various other stints near printing or printers: a. Dad was the director of the speaker’s bureau for Texas Alcohol & Narcotics Education agency during the latter half of his masters degrees at SWBTS and they did some of their own printing. b. My first… Read more »
Oh, I should add: out of kindness, they paid me roughly 3,000 rupiah which at the time was 415 per dollar. So for 30 hours * 4 weeks I made $7.22 or JUST north of 6 cents American per hour. I was a little crestfallen when I saw the number–I didn’t negotiate up front–but it was about half of what the full-time, experienced press workers got (I didn’t see what the “professionals” like the writers made) and I felt badly cashing the check because of that.
“No Lydia,
You must never meet Kate Turabian. For you to combine forces with with Aunt Kate would be a nightmare for Southern Baptist preachers who frequent Baptist blogs and adhere to the comp. persuasion.
Visions of the Spanish Inquisition come to mind.”
You are thinking of my pink pistol, too, aren’t you.
Maybe it should be spelled GOD in lieu of just God. Kind of like Lord and LORD. We can have our own meaning if we want to.
There is a reason it is spelled LORD in an English Bible. And no, you cannot have your “own meaning” if you want to. Some people have taken too many liberties there as it is, you think?
you’retoseriouswhenitcomestomemrmagoogiveitabreakifyouplease
Bruce,
Can you say that slower? I cant understand you.
David 🙂
I used to be a dedicated two-spacer. Then I read this a year or two ago: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html
They’re right. Typographically speaking, fonts are designed to look right with one space following a period. So now I’m a dedicated one-space man.
And as for pronouns referring to God, Christ, and/or the Holy Spirit, I’m not aware that any translation has ever adopted capitalization as normal practice. I don’t really know where people got the idea it should be done.
I have a NKJV, The Open Bible, and it does capitalize the He, His and It where it refers to God.
Check the NASB.
cb scott – Then it is possible that the “him” referred to twice in Heavens Just a Sin Away could also be “Him” and explains that tune opposite to the way you inferred it.
No Jack Wolford.
Not in this lifetime nor the one to come.
cb scott – have you always spelled yourself “an” or was it changed from “en” at some time in the past ? Just curious . Does your using my last name all the time mean something ?
Jack Wolford,
Sorry, I do not understand the question in regard to “an” and “en.”
Jack Wolford, I do not use your last name all the time. I use both your surname and your given name, Jack Wolford, or at least I use Jack which may not be your given name, because Jack is often a nickname, but not always.
If you would rather me address you as John Wolford or Jackson Wolford, I will be glad to oblige.
I write research papers in the information systems discipline, so I know nothing of Ms. Turabian. I use APA.
I often capitalize divine pronouns, but not always. I can never decide whether the practice is respectful or superstitious, so I split the difference. I’m not convince we should capitalize the word scripture.
Always use two spaces. Makes your paper look longer. And, if you can, always use fully justified margins, right and left.
I have decided that when I write here or in the books I am hoping to publish, I do not capitalize divine pronouns – that seems to be the norm in publishing today.
At church in my powerpoint displays, I capitalize.
I guess I really am a liberal like that one blogger always says!
well, since God is not a ‘being’, perhaps the Hebrews had the right idea concerning the Holy Name how do you name ‘existence’ itself? Judaism believes that to give God a name is to attempt to give Him human characterstics so we can more easily percieve Him, but it is misleading. Christianity may now speak the Holy Name of Jesus, (and among some Christian peoples even from ancient times, the head is bowed as ‘Jesus’ is said aloud, and in prayer, as a community, the knee is bent) . . . Jesus . . . ‘He Who Saves His People’… Read more »
I still use two spaces after a period. I also note that when I am texting on my Android smartphone and hit the spacebar twice it automatically inserts a period, so I know I am not the only one.
And yes, I capitalize divine pronouns.
the auto period thing is just a shortcut; it’s not adding two spaces after a period, it just uses that as a quick way to add a period and a space.
I realize that it is a shortcut, my point is that the shortcut is based on the old convention of two spaces after a period.
A relative of mine who is a regular contributor to this site showed it to me. To be clear, the Kate Turabian guide is excerpted from the Chicago Manual of Style, now in its 16th edition, so that thesis writers would have a shorter guide book for classroom/thesis use. The Chicago Manual is used by nearly every scholarly press. I a copyeditor and indexer for scholarly and religious/theological works, so I use the Chicago Manual Here are some pertinent sections from Chicago Manual. As for capitalizing the word “scripture,” follow your professor’s or publisher’s guidelines regardless of what Turabian or… Read more »
Get in the bunkers fellows. We have been invaded by another daughter of Aunt Kate. This one from Missouri, no less. 🙂
We capitalize some interesting words in English: Tuesday: as in Tiu’s day, named after the Norse god ‘Tiu’ Wednesday: as in Woden’s day, named after the Anglo-Saxon god ‘Woden’, or in Norse, ‘Odin’ Thursday: as in ‘Thor’s day’, named after the Norse god ‘Thor’ Friday: ‘as in Freya’s day’, named after the Norse goddess ‘Freya’ nice to know where our pagan words come from at times like this . . . sooooo, good Christian people, if we are going to be okay with typing ‘Thor’s day’ with a capital ‘T’, we might be okay with typing ‘God’ with a capital… Read more »
I for one still do the two spaces thing. And as for the other – capitalizing the pronouns for God, as He, Him, etc. I do that too.
Another one I think should be considered is the et cetera is “etc.” not ect. as I have seen several times.
The “rules” for spacing, use of tabs, paragraphing, and the like came along with technology. When I submit files to a commercial printer that have two spaces or certain no-nos with tabs, it messes up the printing of that file. Just think of why the two-space rule came along with the advent of typewriters: So it would look nice. That’s all. As for putting spaces in hand-set “cold” type, typesetters had tiny little spacers to put between letters and words so they could justify the lines. See the Wiki on Typesetting — it will tell you more than you may… Read more »
Paula In Missouri,
You stated, “St. Kate can be ignored if”…??
Trust me my dear Missouri sister.
Aunt Kate cannot be/was not ignored if you have been or are a student at Asbury Seminary, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, or Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary.
And you better: stand up, salute her, sacrifice three goats along with two pigs and make a drink offering of seafood gumbo if you are a student at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.
I have a relative in [a non-Baptist] seminary who emails all papers to me to make them conform to St. Kate’s rules. One paper was not sent because it was thought I might disagree with the content. I said that a copyeditor doesn’t have to agree with anything that is said — even if a seminarian claims Judas rose from the dead. Correcting the content of the paper is the professors’ job — I only make it sound nice and look nice. It’s dismaying, though, that some professors get so rigid and nit-picky about, say, a comma vs. a semicolon… Read more »
I write for Voices, and I space and capitalize how I want. It’s all predestined anyway.
rules is rules . . . meant to be broken . . . especially the silly kind But, however, should only one space between each sentence be permitted,there is way around it.We could just ‘skip’ a space after one sentence, and alternate by providing two spaces after the second sentence. That way, it all evens out in the end, and people don’t have to give up a treasured habit altogether.Makes sense. At least to me. (this original idea comes from ‘The Hogwart’s Training Manual in Preserving Utterly Meaningless and Archaic Grammar And Punctuation Just To Annoy Them What Has No… Read more »
Love it, love it.
One thing that discombobulates me is that from time to time my keyboard changes from English extended to French or German or Greek. That’s because on a Mac computer, pressing CMD+spacebar will change the keyboard. And my thumb manages to rest on those keys when I pause to think, sometimes!
And why am I up so late? Just finished indexing a book!
So I know this is a stale conversation, but as I’m reading The Elements of Typographic Style, I’ve just come across the following: “In the nineteenth century, which was a dark and inflationary age in typography and type design, many compositors were encouraged to stuff extra space between sentences. Generations of twentieth-century typists were then taught to do the same, by hitting the spacebar twice after every period. Your typing as well as your typesetting will benefit from unlearning this quaint Victorian habit. As a general rule, no more than a single space is required after a period, a colon… Read more »
Thank you for that! Yay! I haven’t looked at The Elements of Typographic Style in many years; glad to know that’s in there. Wonder what makes the writer say the nineteenth century was a “dark and inflationary age in typography”?
It amuses me to see some typefaces avoided like the plague, only to be restored to popularity about 30 or 40 years later. Helvetica, shunned in the 1980s is again popular, for example