Being a Southern Baptist is a joy in my ministry. I am thankful to be a part of this diverse group of Christians that have chosen to partner with one another to do together what we could not do alone.
I understand that sometimes we will have differences in the ways we see theological issues, differing ministry philosophies, and different ideas on what we should do together and how we should do it. Add to that, that we all have sin natures and sometimes act in ways that are sinful or respond to the offenses of others in less than gracious ways. Sometimes those differences and conflicts require discussion and input and working out resolutions in a public way. Sometimes, we must politic in some ways to advocate for and seek to achieve a desired end. I get all that and really have no problem with the process. It’s part of choosing to participate in an organization the size of the SBC and find a way to work together in unity despite all of our diversity.
The questions I continually ask myself are these: What drives you as you engage in SBC life? What is the overriding stance you wish to have toward others and be known for when you engage and cooperate with others?
For me, I want to be known and strive for being unified with others in true Christian community and for the advance of God’s kingdom in the world. I am a Southern Baptist for precisely those reasons. I enjoy being in community with others and the encouragement, partnership, fellowship, sharpening, sharing and resourcing opportunities I have in SBC life. I love cooperating together with other Great Commission believers, both locally and around the nation, to make Christ known. I am thankful for the SBC and what God has chosen to do through this varied and diverse group called Southern Baptists.
AND, at times I disagree with others, about a host of issues, and that’s OK. God has made us with different preferences, different values, different gifts, different temperaments, different ways of thinking, different passions, different personalities and He’s put us together in the body of Christ. For most of those who read this blog, God has put us together in churches that have chosen to partner together in this glorious cooperative work of fulfilling the Great Commission.
I feel privileged to be a part of the SBC and to partner with you all in kingdom work.
Last week, I asked one of our state convention leaders during a meeting what he thought about the current debates and divisions in the SBC and how he would respond to them in his role. His answer was simple, “Unity is a choice!” He’s right. And that’s a choice I will continue to make. It’s a choice I make with joy as we are unified for the glory of God and his mission. Thankful to be in unity with you!
So thankful that you and I share a deep desire for unity in the Southern Baptist Convention, Todd. As we work toward the vision God has given each of us for our beloved convention, we should always remember that we are on the same team.
Sometimes, I describe it this way for people. When I disagree with brothers in the SBC about something, we are not enemies fighting a battle against each other. Rather, we are fellow soldiers disagreeing about the best battle strategy for winning the war. Todd, I am glad we are on the same side.
Actions speak louder than words.
Actions speak louder than words.
Rick – “. Rather, we are fellow soldiers disagreeing about the best battle strategy for winning the war.” I guess by war you mean the battle for mans soul… Winning the world to Christ… Being a GC church… Being an Acts 1:8 church. If I am wrong, please let me know. Your push for a balanced leadership based on Calvinists vs. Traditionalists equality bases on how you want to interpret the percentages of SBCers on each side of the discussion flies in the face of your comment. Your push to see more traditionalists in leadership is not about strategy to… Read more »
I would agree that Unity is vitally important! But those pleading for unity should not assume those critical of some SBC leaders, entities or perceived poor stewardship and lack of accountability are trying to blow up the SBC. It might just be the opposite, at least it is with me. I want to see the SBC change in some areas for its long-term viability as a major player in fulfilling the Great Commission. THAT is why TALKING to those with issues and concerns is better than demanding they conform for the sake of ‘unity’…
A lot of motive-assuming happens in our SBC blogosphere and in the conversations we have with others in our own camps. We would do well to listen more than we talk, seek to understand, and then proceed from an assumption that the other person generally has godly desires and intentions (even if they say and do things we don’t like or sometimes sin in the process). Note that the following are “I” statements and not “you” statements — I’m talking here about what I must do if I choose unity in the SBC: But there’s more. I must choose to… Read more »
Totally Agree…looking forward to that time within the SBC and with SBC entities.
Yes, we should always assume the best in others. This does not, of course, negate the fact that two voters can look at the same politician, or two directors can look at the same executive, with one finding favor and the other noting several disqualifying offenses.
If we are going to have unity, then I (using I statements here) must give others the space to offer a negative evaluation where I would offer a positive one, without charging others with disunity simply for disagreeing about a staffing decision or a candidate for election.
Genuine Christian unity tends to expose those who do not truly desire unity.
Sowing discord among brothers will cause one to eventually discover himself marginalized by his own divisiveness.
I couldn’t agree more, Randall. There is simply no cause for sowing seeds of discord. People do become very isolated when that happens. I try to bring people together. For the past four years, I have been connecting with fellow Southern Baptists who share my deep love for John 3:16 and desire a theological home among Southern Baptists today. Others may not always see eye to eye with us, but we still press on in unity, giving through the CP, Lottie and Annie, praying for revival, witnessing, going on mission trips and fulfilling the Great Commission. By the grace of… Read more »
“For the past four years, I have been connecting with fellow Southern Baptists who share my deep love for John 3:16 and desire a theological home among Southern Baptists today.” Right. I know I feel very “connected” with you. I’m sure the young pastoral candidate you abused with your little victory dance feels very “connected” with you as well. “But actions speak louder than words.” Indeed they do. The grace of “Gid” you display is truly something to behold. Given the trajectory of the issue with the ERLC and the EC, I expect you are about to find yourself marginalized… Read more »
Randall, I suspect you do not “feel” any more connected to me than I “feel” connected to T4G Southern Baptists. Such is life in a big tent. I’m pretty sure the accusation of “abuse” falls outside the topic of the post, and I do not wish to join you in hijacking the thread, but you need to know there are others who view the process of making doctrinal positions clear up front with search teams in the candidating process as a function that abuses no one, but does indeed contribute to unity. I feel less marginalized every day, believing the… Read more »
“I suspect you do not “feel” any more connected to me than I “feel” connected to T4G Southern Baptists. Such is life in a big tent.” I’ve never been to T4G. Be that as it may, I’m reasonably certain no one there is the chairperson of an anti-Traditionalist campaign. “…I do not wish to join you in hijacking the thread…” That’s OK. The OP is about the need for unity among gospel-believing Southern Baptists. You are pretending to desire unity. I am simply pointing out the obvious absurdity of that claim. “…you need to know there are others who view… Read more »
Rick – “I feel less marginalized every day, believing the wing of the convention of which I am a part simply claims a majority of the membership and a minority of the leadership.” Are you convinced, through the Word of God, that the majority / minority structure in the SBC presently is wrong? If so, who needs to go and who gets to stay? Who was voted into the leadership roles, you want your people to have, outside of God’s will? Which entity has so many Trustees outside of God’s will that they knew not who God was leading them… Read more »
Which SBC Christian doesn’t love John 3:16?
I know of none.
We all love that verse [among many others]!
We all love John 3:16…just for different reasons. 🙂
Allen,
I love it because it is the Word of God.
Which means it is a word of Truth.
Why do you love it?
I love it because it shares the Gospel in a nutshell…God Loves…God Gave…We Receive.
To add to your summary Allen, it also points out what happens to those who do not believe: they will perish.
Yes, I would certainly hope that every Southern Baptist loves John 3:16, just like every Southern Baptist loves the gospel.
There are quite a few organizations that unite people around the gospel: Together for the Gospel and The Gospel Coalition come to mind.
Just as they connect with people who love the gospel and “desire a theological home” so we connect with people who love John 3:16 and “desire a theological home.”
I never said others were AGAINST John 3:16. I said we were together FOR it.
Rick,
Of course we Christians are together for it.
Even as we are together for all of God’s Word.
And of course you didn’y say that others were against it.
Why would you?
Some of us love John 3:16 so much we refuse to make the direct object the subject of the verse.
I have never seen a proponent of such disunity in all his interactions with others blatantly lie about how interested he is in unity.
Out of respect for my friend Todd, I yield back the remainder of my time.
When you think about it, the man who agrees with everything that is going on is never called upon to demonstrate UNITY or TOLERANCE. He is simply fine with matters as they are. The person who truly demonstrates UNITY and TOLERANCE is the one who disagrees strongly with everything going on, yet continues to pay and pray and support an organization in spite of it. Do not make the mistake of assuming that a person embracing nonestablishment positions is necessarily disloyal, intolerant or undesirous of unity. He may, in fact, be demonstrating far more unity than you imagine. (Link extracted… Read more »
Rick, you know we don’t allow links to that website. Using a URL shortener to disguise the link isn’t acceptable either.
Please, Rick. No links to your site.
Now that Moore has apologized, I wonder when we can expect Rick Patrick to apologize for bearing false witness against a brother in Christ. Until then (or until I am no longer interim editor), no links to his site will be permitted here.
Wow. The gracious acceptance of Moore’s apology and burying of the hatchet is not fit for SBC Voices. And I am the one in this forum considered to be lacking in charity? Brent, it was not a disguise. It was a matter of form. Years ago, on this very site, I was urged to bitmap my links, so they would not extend the formatting and take up so much space. Okay, I’ll bite, Adam. What did I write or say about Russell Moore that YOU believe should be placed in the category of “bearing false witness?” I know I have… Read more »
Rick, you posted a laundry list of alleged offenses by Dr. Moore on your site and in the comments section here. The list was full of half-truths and outright lies.
And if Dr. Moore’s Christmas letter wasn’t an apology, your “burying the hatchet” post is hardly that either.
Adam, Let’s remove this conversation from social media. Call me. Email. Text. Message. Whatever form you prefer, but let’s communicate privately. If you feel I have lied, even once, much less on an entire list of concerns, then name one, or several, and let’s talk about it. If I have lied, I will apologize. However, if I have shared evidence supporting a contrary opinion to yours, and you simply find the evidence uncompelling, well, it would be a lie to call that a lie, right? Let’s talk, brother. Honestly, with a completely clear conscience, I have not INTENDED to lie,… Read more »
Rick, I do not have the time to go through the list to point out all of the untrue things. I stand by my statement. I respect your right to disagree with Dr. Moore. I do not respect your decision to repeat untrue things and attack his character. As I said, no links to your site will be permitted here for that reason.
Well, then let me take a minute and just say that, hypothetically, if you were to call me on the phone and say, “Rick, on such and such a date, you said that Russell Moore once worked for a Democratic Congressman, but he never did,” and if you were right about that fact, then I would certainly apologize for saying it. If you can point to a place where I have attacked his character (not his judgment or his words or his actions) then I would certainly apologize for it. For example, if I called him an “idiot” or said… Read more »
Rick: How about the article on Russell Moore assisting the LGBTQ Agenda and other such articles on your site. No, you didn’t write them, but you allowed them to be there and you commented affirming the author in many cases. Yet these were articles that were filled with lies. Just because you didn’t write them you still affirm them and it promoted smearing of Moore’s name and reputation. It seems to me that you are like the guy who hires someone to shoot whoever he wants shot, but his hands are clean. Except in the court of law both are… Read more »
You allow your commenters to spread horrific lies and say nothing. That to me is the same as condoning it. I can’t even read the comment section it is so full of malicious lies. Opinions as if they are fact. No links to proof, just maliciousness.
And you say above you accept the apology and are moving on, yet it seems what you mean is moving on to the next disgruntlement against Moore, one based on the article I mentioned above. The LGBTQ article. I base it on your comment on the subject.
Rick – “And I am the one in this forum considered to be lacking in charity?”
You asking that question is funny.
You appear to be confusing “UNITY” with “TOLERANCE.” The former would require some level of repentance on your part for throwing divisive hissy-fits. The later enables you to appear magnanimous, all the while still harboring a thinly veiled bitterness that leaks out around the edges of your paragraphs. This is much like the child whose mother made him sit in the corner for his bad behavior. He sat, but mumbled under his breath, “I’m sitting down on the outside, but I’m standing up on the inside.” “TOLERANCE” is not “UNITY.” Now you can tell your followers that you, once again,… Read more »
Well, I did just write a 1,200 word essay burying the hatchet. And the response to my graciousness has thus far been less than gracious.
Randall,
Neither is UNIFORMITY the same as UNITY.
I think you have to allow for the fact that I strongly disagree with Moore, and continue to do so, while remaining a loyal Southern Baptist. This kind of tolerance is at the very least a PART of what UNITY involves.
Just because someone disagrees, even strongly, and shares his disagreement publicly, CANNOT be viewed as DISUNITY.
The tolerance of disagreement, on the part of the establishment, is also a part of UNITY.
All of the reasons you state for burying your hatchet are about someone or something else: the “present environment”; “respect for Steve Gaines and Jack Graham”; “this disagreement cannot go on forever”; “pragmatically, it won’t do any good”; “this discussion that most of us are weary of having.” You buried no hatchets, you merely lowered yours a bit. Also, since you are touting your graciousness, where is your apology for your tone, your choice of words, your vitriol? I see no apology whatsoever, no acknowledgment of your own failings in this regard. In fact, what I see is an arrogant… Read more »
“Well, I did just write a 1,200 word essay burying the hatchet.”
Actually, you threw a little dirt over the head of your hatchet, conveniently and very pointedly leaving the handle sticking out of the ground for easy access.
This hardly rises to the level of “TOLERANCE,” let alone “UNITY.”
“And the response to my graciousness has thus far been less than gracious.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGVIwRLC3bQ
I’ve been preaching/blogging unity for a long time – go back to when I strongly disagreed with the IMB personnel policies and you’ll find that I just as strongly supported Lottie Moon, the CP, and called for unity, even as I desired change. Again, unity is a choice and it’s one I have chosen and will continue to choose. (By the way, for what it’s worth, the timing of my post was purely coincidental and has nothing to do with the ERLC post released the same day — mine was written last week and pre-scheduled by our moderator to post… Read more »
Moore apologized. I accepted his apology, closing with this: “I do accept Moore’s apology and forgive him for his insults and his failures. Perhaps in the future, when Moore is addressing social and moral and political issues, he will be a little more considerate of others. His words and actions since the election have been far less strident. Maybe he is turning over a new leaf. I am certainly willing to do the same. I will continue to pray for him, and ask God to use him and help him as we all move forward from here in our service… Read more »
“….It makes no sense to me….”
When one sows discord, one should not be puzzled when one reaps a harvest of discord.
I’m done.
We simply must allow room for “disagreeing with a public figure’s words and actions, using standard English, while not personally insulting them or calling them names.”
I’ve done plenty of that.
But I do not consider that sowing seeds of discord. Evidently you do. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on that, in the interest of unity.
Rick, Could it possibly be that you were/are acting in the same way you complained about as to Dr. Moore? People are under the opinion that you spoke in error and with little consideration. And that your demeanor and attitude went too far. Now i am not speaking for those who are criticizing you in this blog, just making an observation. Unity is found in true humility. But as long as people think Dr. Moore doesn’t mean what his apology states, they will still be against him [unless of course they are against him for other things]. Likewise, how can… Read more »
There is a big difference between disagreeing with someone, and that person being a liar.
“Liar” and “lies” get used a little too much on the internet.
David R. Brumbelow
Just for the record, The timing of this post coming out the same day as the ERLC/Moore post was purely coincidental.
“Can’t we all just get along?” Agreeing to disagree on our perspective and concerns is necessary for unity. Moore did what I BELIEVE he needed to do. I am grateful. I am still not a fan of the ERLC and consider it existence poor stewardship. But that is a battle for another thread and another day.
Dr. Patrick is an experienced wordsmith without being much of a listener. Even to his own words. “If by UNITY you mean everyone must agree with you, then I am not for that kind of unity, whether our leaders primarily see things my way or yours” “Moore needs a few people who think like many of us at SBC Today to serve as Trustees.” “Perhaps I simply long for the days when Richard Land spoke in the public square, and the words he shared were the very words I felt in my heart.” Now whining about his own accountability “because… Read more »
Rick, I am a Calvinist. You and I would strongly disagree on matters of Soteriology.
However, I appreciate your article and your comments in this thread.
Keep your chin up. God bless, brother.
Thank you, Dan.
Careful Rick….if people start saying nice things it’ll be harder for you to forward your martyr syndrome…
You know the whole: ” Jesus said blessed are the persecuted and I go on Voices to be blessed” thing you like to spread….
Well… thank you for that blessing right there. I knew I could count on you.
Yeah, just acknowledging what you said you expect when you’re talking trash about me and other posters here on your site…
Dave Miller writes, “Of course, in this toxic environment, the disagreements have often gone nuclear. Grace has been abandoned and we drop h-bombs on one another while spraying cover fire from our anathematization guns. Supporters go into defense mode and healthy interaction becomes impossible.”
https://sbcvoices.com/whither-henceforth-moore-unity-and-a-path-forward/
For illustration of the truth of this statement look no further than the majority of the responses to Rick Patrick in this thread.
Dan, one article or comment thread cannot provide proper context for this discussion — there is a long history on the blogosphere on multiple posts on multiple sites in multiple comment threads that characterizes the wranglings baptists have had over debated issues. I hope the consistent theme people hear from me is unity and the desire to create more of it for the cause of the gospel. What people see and hear and observe in others is beyond my control and responsibility, but seems to respond and speak to a long-term pattern and not a few comments on a single… Read more »
Dan McGhee,
Amen to your comment.
David R. Brumbelow
Well I don’t think Rick Patrick is anathema to anything, nor do I believe him to be a heretic. I think he continues to prove himself to be arrogant, pedantic, wants people to either agree with him or feel sorry for him, and continues to write and allow on his site baseless, unsourced articles which use poor journalistic standards, personally biased language and labels and mere anecdote. He continues to sow division at every turn and is engaged in a ceaseless war against those that HE sees as heretics. Now, if calling a person on their hypocrisy, arrogance and factual… Read more »
Jim, Thank you for saying I am not a heretic. Those who know me well would disagree with “arrogant” but probably grant you “pedantic.” I do not care if people agree with me. I have my opinions and respect the right of others to have theirs. I do not want others to feel sorry for me. Perhaps you are referencing my claim that, on this site, people tend to criticize me a great deal. This is manifestly true, and it is simply not the way I am treated on other sites. This forum is an outlier, an anomaly. If all… Read more »
My original post is a summary of why I call being in unity with other Southern Baptists, even when we disagree, a “joyful choice.” Here’s a question for all but especially for those of you with multiple comments on this post: What are the joys for you of being Southern Baptist, particularly in the unity we share with others with whom we may disagree, especially on the most hot-button of issues? Specifically, since these issues have been brought up (without rehashing the issues themselves please)… 1. Why is it a JOY for you to be in unity with Calvinists (if… Read more »
Good question Todd. I really do find joy in fellowship with non-Calvinists and appreciate how they often challenge me – I need it. (I say this as someone who is fine to identify as a Calvinist but at the same time it is not an issue that is that important to me.) First of all, there’s the saying “I don’t need someone to agree with me, I can agree with myself” that one of my college professors used frequently. Becoming insular and living within an echo chamber is a danger for anyone, so hearing different perspectives is healthy. I do… Read more »
Hi Todd, That’s not a bad question, but it’s not framed in a manner that makes sense to me in terms of my view of the peacemaking process required for unity to one day exist. I think it is fair to ask people to desire unity. I don’t think it’s fair to require that they find the process of seeking that unity to be a *happy* or a *joyful* one. One may desire peace, but find the process of getting there not to be a joyful one at all. Rather, it may be deemed a very arduous task of forging… Read more »
That’s the difference between your position and mine, and I framed the question that way on purpose. I, like Brent above, find myself in unity with people across the theological and ideological spectrum of the SBC and a real joy in that unity. I find that my relationships with a number of people with whom I disagree on a lot of these issues is based on our common commitments and love for the gospel and mission and a conscious, deliberate choice to not allow disagreements to take center stage. I have made an active choice not to allow the various… Read more »
Instructive that Todd’s post is an explanation of how unity is a choice we make. Rick says he doesn’t believe there’s unity now. I agree for Rick there’s not unity — because he’s choosing for there not to be. Reading his comment, Rick has chosen to wait for unity to come to him, then he’ll enjoy it (sometime in the future, he hopes). But the kind of unity he describes doesn’t sound anything like the joyful unity Todd talks about or the Bible describes in unity passages. “Forging agreements and balancing agendas.” Let the reader decide between Todd’s vision for… Read more »
And the obvious distinction is that both Todd and Brent are basically happy with the current direction of the SBC. They see everything as “just fine.” If matters were reversed, I would feel the same way they do. But matters are what they are. We are divided in the SBC at present, with their wing favored and mine not. I should point out that, interpersonally, I have many such friendships across not only theological, but also denominational lines. We enjoy sweet fellowship and the kind of interpersonal unity that such friendship brings. But in the context of “SBC Denominational Direction… Read more »
Rick, I’m not going to read back through the comments here – no desire to wade into that. You said, “I desire unity.” Perhaps, but my observation is that it is only on your terms. You desire unity if the “other side” plays by your rules, accepts that you and yours are the majoritarian position and should hold the positions of power and make the rules, accepts some kind of arbitrary proportional second class status and yields to your world view, your theology, your politics, and your will. You want the peace that the US made with Germany and Japan… Read more »
Rick, I’ll add here that I’ve recommended to Dave and Adam for weeks now that we disallow your comments. Not because you disagree with us – plenty of commenters do that. But because of exactly the things Dave mentions here. I really don’t believe you come here to converse in good faith, but to insert yourself in the middle of whatever topic happens to be being discussed. This thread is a perfect example. As of me writing this, 19 out of 66 comments have been posted by you. The last 15 or so comments have been mostly about you. None… Read more »
Okay, I will leave. But you need to know that you have misrepresented me. You say that I want the peace of a surrender. I say that is manifestly false. I do not want surrender and a complete “playing by my rules” as you say. I merely want a “negotiated peace” whereby both sides agree through a process of compromise. Thus far, no such Ad Hoc Peace Committee has formed. I believe we need one. I have called for it publicly and privately. I believe we need to address some matters and resolve some conflicts. Hopefully, one day, that process… Read more »
I said I was done on this thread. I wish to repent of that. Rick, you will recall that several years ago I expressed concern that your trenchant approach to these issues would adversely affect you. One simply cannot be “anti” anything, constantly fighting and stirring the pot, without consequences. It will wear you out. It will eventually break you. It will eventually embitter you. I genuinely find some of the tactics you use in your war against Calvinism reprehensible…even unbiblical and unchristian. If you continue in this fashion, you will push yourself to the margins of the SBC, if… Read more »
Lol, Randall. Really? That video was awful…lol!
I will Say that think I’ve seen Adam Blosser wear an outfit like that.
I should have listened to Brent when he told me to put Tarheel in moderation too.
I’m sorry. I did not mean to offend you Adam – I will try harder to grant you the respect that I think you deserve….
After all volunteering to be the short time, fill in, temporary, part-time editor carries with it a certain amount of grandiosity on your part.
Such demonstrated gallantry on your part certainly deserves a concerted measure of veneration, approbation and obeisance from the rest of us. 😉
Back when Adam Blosser toured under the name of Andrew Gold he was my favorite artist.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BaYsK6qRK34
As much as I have been an advocate for peace in the SBC, after the news that has just broken, I doubt it will be possible
Adam, can we put Dave in moderation for the RickRoll?
I know he’s in charge, but I think he needs a timeout.
Then I suppose you are either elect to joy or not elect to joy. Man cannot choose joy.
I am so glad that the Pastor’s Conference will be preaching through Philippians. Joy is not a choice, necessarily. To REJOICE, that is the choice. James says to COUNT IT as joy when you face trials. That is a choice. Experiential joy is fleeting. I will feel joy when people stop labeling each other and segregating each other. I will rejoice in the Lord no matter what. I know and trust that in an evangelistic opportunity, there will be no substantive difference between Rick Patrick and Todd Benkert; both men are interested in that person receiving Christ. I rejoice in… Read more »
Time to move on…The End.
I just read all of the comments in this thread. It reminded me of comment threads on the ancient SBC Outpost back when dinosaurs roamed the land of Baptist Bloggers. . . except no one called anyone else “Stupid” or stated, “If we were face-to-face, I would slap you naked.”
So, I guess there has been some advancement in the SBC, ya think?
We’re evolving…slowly.
Haven’t been threatened with being slapped naked in years. And it was usually followed with “and hide your clothes.”
Never quite grasped how that threat would bear out. Because I’d be in trouble for being nekkid and having no clothes anywhere around.
Wow! Perusing this thread and it’s like two rival gangs competing for SBC turf.
Kudos to the OP . . . “Blessed are the peacemakers.”