Big news yesterday from the church of an ex-SBC president. Jack Graham said that Prestonwood Baptist has decided to “to escrow gifts previously forwarded to support Southern Baptist cooperative missions and ministries while the congregation discusses concerns about the direction of the Southern Baptist Convention,” according to Will Hall at the Baptist Message, the “news journal” of Louisiana Baptists.
While each church has the right to determine how to support the cooperative efforts of the SBC, this particular decision takes on a more public light given Graham’s previous position as SBC President, the significance of the sum of money, and the decision of Prestonwood leadership to speak with the Baptist Message about their decision.
According to Hall’s article, Mike Buster, executive pastor of the church, said the decision stems from “various significant positions taken by the leadership of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission that do not reflect the beliefs and values of many in the Southern Baptist Convention.” Hall goes on to write, “Russell Moore, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, has created tensions among Southern Baptists by signing a friend of the court brief in support of the construction of a mosque, and, for making strident insults against evangelical supporters of then-presidential candidate Donald Trump during the 2016 election process.” It is not clear, though, from Hall’s article if these are specific concerns stated by Prestonwood representatives or interjections by Hall himself.
Nonetheless, Hall’s words raise the specter that the church’s decision is rooted in positions taken by Dr. Moore on the issues of religious liberty and political candidates. To be fair to both sides, Moore did state some of his positions in a calloused manner, a reality for which he later apologized.
I want to return to the statement: “Various significant positions taken by the leadership of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission that do not reflect the beliefs and values of many in the Southern Baptist Convention.” In light of Hall’s article, significant positions center especially on the ERLC’s filing of the amicus brief and Moore’s opposition to Trump as president.
My question in response to this is: When did the beliefs and values of many in the SBC change?
I would like to point to three resolutions adopted by the messengers of the SBC since the mid-1990s. Though non-binding, resolutions do reflect the opinions held by messengers of Southern Baptist Churches present at the conventions. First, messengers adopted a resolution on Religious Liberty in 1995 at the Atlanta, GA, convention. The resolution states:
Therefore, be it RESOLVED, By the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Atlanta, Georgia, June 20-22, 1995, that the Southern Baptist Convention express its support for all peoples suffering denial of religious liberty, but especially for those who are of the household of faith, and even more particularly for those who share Baptist convictions and commitments…
Taking a Galatians 6 angle of doing good to all people and especially to those of the household of faith, the resolution states that we as the SBC support religious liberty for all people. Yes, our main focus should be upon our Christian brothers and sisters, but not to the denial of liberty for others. If you read the resolution, this attitude is rooted in the desire to help Christians in persecuted countries worship and evangelize freely. In other words, the messengers understood a connection between freedom for all religions and our liberty as Christians to evangelize the nations.
Another resolution, passed at the 2011 convention in Phoenix, AZ, expresses a similar idea. The desire within the resolution is to want people in Islamic countries to have the freedom to convert away from Islam. Yet, with this in mind, the first five resolveds state:
RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Phoenix, Arizona, June 14-15, 2011, restate our long-standing view that religious liberty is an inalienable human right, rooted in the image of God and possessed by all human beings; and be it further
RESOLVED, That we affirm that this freedom entails the civil liberty to convert to another religion or to no religion, to seek to persuade others of the claims of one’s religion, and to worship without harassment or impediment from the state; and be it further
RESOLVED, That we oppose the imposition of any system of jurisprudence by which people of different faiths do not enjoy the same legal rights; and be it further
RESOLVED, That we deny that any government should use any coercive measure—including zoning laws or permits—to restrict religious speech or worship, based on the theological content of that speech or worship; and be it further
RESOLVED, That we call on the United States government to maintain complete religious liberty for all Americans, as guaranteed in the First Amendment to the Constitution; and be it further…
In short, the messengers to the SBC spoke their view that people of different faiths than Christianity deserve the same rights of freedom as Christianity, and the government should not use coercive measures against such freedoms.
So, if the resolutions of 1995 and 2011 speak an opinion of the SBC, it would seem that the view presented by Hall and Prestonwood representatives is out of step with the beliefs and values of many in the SBC. Unless, that is, they are contending that our beliefs and values on religious liberty have changed over the past six years.
As to Moore’s positions against Trump, I point to a resolution adopted at the 1998 convention in Salt Lake City, UT. The “Resolution on the Moral Character of Public Officials” concludes:
“Be it finally RESOLVED, That we urge all Americans to embrace and act on the conviction that character does count in public office, and to elect those officials and candidates who, although imperfect, demonstrate consistent honesty, moral purity and the highest character.”
In the midst of the moral scandals of the Clinton administration, we Southern Baptists spoke firmly on our belief that character matters in politics. We did not expect our politicians to be perfect, but we urged one another and our fellow citizens to vote for men and women of “consistent honesty, moral purity and the highest character.”
With the election of President Trump, some SBC leaders came out in strong support of the candidate despite him not meeting these qualifications. Dr. Moore was not one of these. Yet, despite the voice of the SBC, historically, speaking to high moral standards for politicians, Hall’s article states that it is Moore who was out of step with the view of many Southern Baptists. If so, what changed?
Again, Dr. Graham can lead his church how he sees fit and Prestonwood is free to decide how to contribute to the Cooperative Program. Yet the reasons given for their decision seem spurious. We Southern Baptists have consistently spoken in favor of religious liberty for all people, not just Christians. We have also spoken of the need for high moral character in political leadership, and especially in the nation’s highest office.
Why is it that in 2016-17, we are being led to believe by Baptist news journals, former SBC presidents, and other SBC leaders that stances by men like Russell Moore on such topics are now out of step with many Southern Baptists? If that is true, then what changed?
This is excellent. Thank you, Mike.
Mike is correct. As Southern Baptists we practice church autonomy. Our churches can channel their giving as they choose. However, we should remember that in the Cooperative Program budget the IMB gets 51%; NAMB gets 23%, and the six seminaries get 21%. That adds up to 95%. So, the Ethics Commissions gets a small percentage. Why withhold missions giving to make a point about the Ethics Commission? As a retired missionary I do not speak to the validity of their complaint against the Ethics Commission; I do, however, bemoan any lessening of giving to missions.
No one would bat an eye if they withheld the ERLC’s percentage. But withhold a million dollars from the CP and you’ll get someone’s attention.
I am so sick and tired of hearing that we should not care about the ERLC’s waste because it is really such a small portion of the CP budget. We need to get rid of the ERLC because we do not and never have needed it, especially when the guy heading it up is more interested in ‘schooling’ us than ‘representing’ us. The ERLC is an unnecessary lightening rod tasked with an impossible responsibility. I have said it before an will say it again here. There is NO WAY as single SBC entity can represent the diverse concerns and issues… Read more »
Allen, this is why the waters stay muddy. We could have a good (and perhaps needed) conversation about whether the SBC needs an ERLC. I can see the arguments on both sides of that conversation. But when Russell Moore is attacked for standing for traditional Baptist principles as if he is some closet liberal, it prevents that conversation from happening.
Agreed. I hope these conversations may soon become a reality. And, if “5%” isn’t much, then what small church’s giving matters? I wonder how many missionaries jobs could have been saved with the “5%” that is so small? It probably isn’t small to their families. I know that God can do wonders with even 5%. I am sure someone has posted the $ amount of what the 5% equals. Does anyone here know how much the ERLC receives based on the budget approved at SBC16?
“When Russell Moore is attacked….” Wow. Just…wow. I realize this is your perspective and all, but many of us feel verbally abused by Russell Moore to a degree I don’t think his fanboys can fathom. LISTEN, just LISTEN, to what Russell Moore said about me and others like me. First, he gave us a pejorative, washed up label, calling us “the Old School Religious Right Establishment.” Does he not realize that his salary is paid PRIMARILY by the 81% of Southern Baptists who continue to identify with the Religious Right, in spite of the fact that Moore keeps telling us… Read more »
Exactly. Totally agree.
Excellent word!
Excellent article! Thanks for writing it.
Exactly!
Apparently we only hold those convictions when a Democrat is in the White House…
The ERLC gets all of 1.65% of the SBC allocation budget. Factor in what the state convention keeps in Texas and you are down to less than a percentage point of Cooperative Program gifts. I’m assuming the article meant that the church gives $1m to the CP as a whole. The church’s contribution to the ERLC would be about $9,000. We are to believe that Russell Moore has raised enough questions for the church to say that their $9,000 out of the $1,000,000 given is sufficient to escrow the larger amount? Churches don’t have to make sense. They are king.… Read more »
I believe most Southern Baptists opposed to the mosque amicus brief would agree completely with the statement: “All Americans should have the freedom to worship any way they choose, and the government should not favor one religion over another.” Because as Baptists we do believe in this principle, arguments like these give us the impression that you feel the need to lecture us, which is a bit offensive and condescending, since we affirm religious liberty with a totally clear conscience. These resolutions do not “hit us” or “scratch where we are itching,” for we affirm both religious liberty and the… Read more »
* Gorsuch
So, situational application of cherished principles is how we should roll… Got it.
Ding ding ding!
Yep. Situational ethics had taken over.
Please consider that there is more than one way to apply ANY general principle. Take one we all affirm: “Christians should observe the Sabbath Day and keep it holy.” One person APPLIES this by refusing worldly amusements like restaurants or shopping. Another person APPLIES this by going to church in the morning and relaxing with family members the rest of the day. Another person preaches two sermons, attends a senior citizen’s birthday party, leads two committee meetings and provides and impromptu counseling session before collapsing at the end of the day. You simply CANNOT require that the SPECIFIC WAY that… Read more »
Or, in this case, Rick, when its a Democrat in office we oppose his immorality. When it is a Republican, we excuse or gloss over it.
Then you should have no problem with Moore’s actions/positions.
As the other guy said… as long as we only apply the principles to one party, we’re ok.
When did Southern Baptists start questioning the power of the Gospel to change lives to the point where we think the government should pick sides?
Rick, So then why are you so upset Dr. Moore and David Platt applied these principles different than you? I’m glad you are finally confessing that they are in line with what Baptists have historically believed. And it’s just that they’ve went about applying these differently than you would.
Mike Leake, You are correct in your restatement of my point. We all agree with Platt and Moore on the general principles of RELIGIOUS LIBERTY and LEADERSHIP CHARACTER. I don’t know of anyone who seriously argued against these principles in general. The disagreement is over HOW such concerns were APPLIED, and the reason many of us have expressed concern is that we do not view that APPLICATION as being a minor issue at all, as reflected in your closing statement that it was “JUST [emphasis added] that they’ve went about applying these differently than you would.” You can drop the… Read more »
Isn’t Moore guilty of “situational ethics” by giving advise through the ERLC that is okie dokie to attend the reception of a gay couple, so long as you don’t attend the wedding? I see this as application, thought I believe faulty. Application can and will look different in such a diverse group of believers. As we welcome the growth of a more racially diverse church, the historical voting habits of some of these minority group will bring in different “application” of these historic Baptist Principles. Will we then call it “application” or “situational application”?
‘”You simply CANNOT require that the SPECIFIC WAY that YOU think a general principle MUST be applied is the ONLY way.” Then you should have no problem with Moore’s actions/positions.’ Mike: The issue is when Moore is being paid with CP funds to speak on an issue and acts contrary to many members within the SBC. That’s what is at issue. Moore has a right to speak on his own behalf. No one is questioning that right. Members do have a right to question his actions on anything he does while wearing the “ERLC hat”. Just as, members have a… Read more »
Oh, come on.
Rick, I would not be so alarmed if people were only questioning legal strategy (“Hey, at what point should we not join a legal effort to defend religious mushroom smoking or religious mosque building?”). I have an opinion about such matters, but I can see them as edge questions that people of good faith can discuss while all affirming religious liberty. However, alongside these questions has been the constant drumbeat from leaders in the anti-ERLC movement to state pretty explicitly that religious liberty should not extend to Muslims. In my opinion, your comment makes perfect sense if and only if… Read more »
It was not a religious liberty issue. It was a zoning issue.
Allen, are you suggesting that zoning issues cannot be religious liberty issues?
Also, Allen, is it a religious liberty issue when people repeatedly say that we should withdraw religious liberty from Muslims?
I am suggesting that zoning issues be addressed with those who are in charge of zoning…and Local Associations and SBC churches chime in if there is rel discrimination going on. There is not a need for an SBC response…especially when a local response would be more effective.
Bart, I hope you’ll give serious consideration to a blog post on the topic I suggested you take on (assuming you received my e-mail). Thanks!
Some Southern Baptists, I have recently learned, are now of the opinion that Islam is not really a religion at all—but a geopolitical movement seeking world conquest that merely disguises itself as a religion in order to afford it certain protections, like exploiting religious liberty. Presumably, they believe Islam has ALWAYS functioned in this manner. I have not looked into this at any length, listening to any speakers or reading any materials, so I may not be qualified to judge the merits of this view. But right now, such a position is a bit of a stretch for me, for… Read more »
I don’t think one has to exclusively be lumped into the category of “withdrawing religious liberty from Muslims” if they don’t think we should be aiding, in any way, the furtherance of their ability to build a mosque. I think that those who support religious liberty can both believe that Muslims have a right to build a mosque and that SBC leadership should not sign any document that gives assistance in any way. I think the argument here lies in what one constitutes as giving assistance to the worship of another God. Perhaps many in good conscience are being lumped… Read more »
Rick, The filing of an amicus brief, despite how often you and your friends try to describe it as “a de facto legal partnership in support of a false religion,” is patently FALSE. It is no such thing and for you to continue to describe it in such words displays ignorance on this issue. By definition, an amicus brief is an unrelated 3d party offering their thoughts on the matter at hand before the court, providing information that has bearing on the case. To claim that the ERLC or the IMB partnered with a mosque is ludicrous and until you… Read more »
I know that the amicus brief does not address the “facts” of the case, but merely addresses the “law” and supports the general principle of religious liberty. I also realize that you and others feel that when Southern Baptists file such a brief in a case involving a false religion that we are NOT partnering with them. I have learned people have different ideas about what constitutes a partnership. For what it’s worth, and this is only an illustration, but when a Southern Baptist Church Plant receives funding BOTH from the North American Mission Board AND from the Acts 29… Read more »
rick: Still, we are not going to file any paperwork at all that MIGHT be construed as IN SOME WAY supportive of this false religion. We CANNOT do that as a matter of conscience.”
You expressed objections in the housing allowance case to the SBC joining with Jews, Muslims, Krishnas and others? Advocating for the free exercise use of peyote by pagan Native Americans?
This is anti-Islam and not much else.
No one is claiming that the ERLC or the IMB were forced to file a brief. But it is not true IN THE LEAST to look at it as any sort of partnership with either the plaintiff or the defendent. If you want to use language of ‘partnership’, then those filing amicus briefs are in partnership with the court and the court alone. So does Jack Graham, Rick Patrick, et. al have a problem with the ERLC and the IMB being partners with the court, because they sure didn’t when they filed briefs concerning religious liberty as it applied to… Read more »
William and Jason,
I DO think we should be more selective in advocating for Southern Baptist concerns. Regarding the HOUSING ALLOWANCE, it is indeed a Southern Baptist concern. Regarding Hobby Lobby, MANY Southern Baptists were affected. Again, no problem at all. Regarding parking spaces at a mosque in New Jersey? No real Southern Baptist interest here. Just let them put in a few more parking spaces and continue to practice their religion freely.
Jason Sampler, your comment seems to be at odds with the actual statement of the federal Judge. “Shipp acknowledged the friend of the court brief joined by the ERLC and IMB, stating it “supports” the ISBR’s arguments that unlawful religious discrimination occurred.” By the way for those who would deny a local population the ability to establish parking requirements – how do you count “seats” in a mosque? Even if that is true should not the brief have been filed by our SBC church a couple miles away? Also how can a town that has elected a Muslim mayor be… Read more »
Mike, That quote actually supports Jason’s argument. All it says is that the brief supports the argument that unlawful religious discrimination occurred, nothing more. “Even if that is true should not the brief have been filed by our SBC church a couple miles away?” This doesn’t make much sense to me. If the case pertains to religious liberty, then it seems entirely within the mission of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission to file the brief. This claim also seems to miss that this brief wasn’t filed by only the ERLC and IMB. They joined with many other institutions to… Read more »
Stephen, precisely my point. The judge stated clearly the SBC brief supported the claim of discrimination. In a town that had elected a known Muslim mayor! Let that sink in a minute. Mr. Sample implied that the brief was only about religious liberty. The judge is saying that it was specific to this situation. On the local church I am just a lay person but I though that Southern Baptist were congregation led from the local church up. Is it possible that the ERLC and IMB (and obviously others) have determined that the town is discriminatory and worthy of not… Read more »
Rick, so you are saying that Dr. Moore and the ERLC and David Platt and the IMB were trying to bring us into collusion with Islam? Because you’re talking about being unequally yoked with unbelievers. That is an incredibly serious charge – a charge of heresy and of essentially abandoning the faith, or watering it down to the point of nothing. If you believe that, it seems you would be really bold in proclaiming it and you’d be calling for firings. Perhaps I’m reading you wrong. That is possible, to be sure. I always saw the amicus brief to be… Read more »
I did not CHARGE anyone with anything. I EXPLAINED that the people who do not see this issue like you do are NOT looking at it as a RELIGIOUS LIBERTY concern, because they DO affirm religious liberty for all Americans. Yes, the brother in Arkansas last summer and the IMB Trustee from Tennessee, among others, view this as an UNHOLY ALLIANCE issue more than a RELIGIOUS LIBERTY issue. THAT is what I am saying. YOU used the word “heresy.” I did not. (I am trying to put less in my mouth these days, so please don’t insert any words in… Read more »
So, are you saying what some believe or what you believe? Your last paragraph confused me.
If it is just what some are saying, it would behoove us all to correct them, no? Because those are serious things. When will perception give way to reality?
Alan Cross: Yes there was a choice. You made your choice to sit this one out, I guess. I made the choice to hold my nose and vote for Trump over Hillary. Who are you to say my choice is less principled than yours? I did not to flip a coin. I made a reasoned choice for reasons that support Christian principles I strongly believe in; the right to life, the support of traditional marriage and the rejection of a redefinition of the sexes.
You’ve said that people who oppose the mosque amicus brief, or even more generally support government restrictions on Islam due to connections with terrorism, still believe the general principle of religious liberty. I believe that this is true, and you are not the only one I’ve seen/heard say this, or know would say it if the issue came up. Most, if not all, of the Christians I know who disagree with the ERLC’s position on this genuinely do believe that religious liberty is important. However, taking that position is not only inconsistent with religious liberty, but actually undermines it. Simply… Read more »
Stephen, Does the Lord’s Word tell us to support or reject high places to a false god? I am sure that you are aware of many more then few listed below. Exodus 23:13 13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. Judges 6:25 Now on the same night the LORD said to him, “Take your father’s bull and a second bull seven years old, and pull down the altar of Baal which belongs to your father,… Read more »
Mike,
That is a red herring. Nobody is arguing for supporting high places to a false god. We are arguing against allowing the government to create a different set of rules for one religion than exist for other religions. If we allow the government to do this with Muslims, it will be done to Christians. It is a matter of “when,” not “if.”
Steven, You said, “If the ERLC’s effort in this case is successful, it will probably result in the building of a mosque, but that does not mean that the ERLC is trying to help build a mosque. It means that the ERLC is trying to stop the government from creating a different set of rules for one religious community than it has for other religious communities.” Is this not simply a form of appeasement? “Appeasement,” according to Wikipedia, “in a political context is a diplomatic policy of making political or material concessions to an enemy power in order to avoid… Read more »
Stephen, what do you think a mosque is? It is a place to worship a false god.
I will repeat the question that I have asked in multiple forums:
Can anyone provide a Biblical justification for any form of support for the building of a mosque which will be used to worship a false god and to teach falsehoods about Jesus? It does not matter whether you call it a high place or not, the purpose of a mosque is obvious.
Mike, I will not answer the question as phrased because it misses the entire point and purpose of what was done and why we believe the ERLC took the right action in this case. The action was taken in defense of religious liberty for all people, including Muslims. If a government creates different rules for one religion than exists for other religions, it is acting outside the bounds of is authority by restricting religious liberty. If religious liberty does not include Muslims, then that religious liberty is merely a facade. You could rephrase the question to something like this: Can… Read more »
Mike: This is the United States. This is not Russia or some third country. You cannot take away religious liberty. It will eventually take it from everyone if you start this. How hard is this to understand?
Doug, That is not even remotely a form of appeasement. The action the ERLC took was not making political or material concessions to Islam in order to avoid conflict. It was an attempt to fight government interference with people’s ability “to form and propagate opinions in the sphere of religion.” If the was any appeasement, it was on the part of those who have opposed the ERLC’s actions in this case. That could be construed as making political or material concessions to the government, though I think even that falls short of true appeasement. As to your other assertion that… Read more »
Stephen, I want to thank you sending a Biblical justification. I will read it later today.
I will point out that your message implies that NOT filing the brief in question would affect religious liberty for us also. That is pure speculation. Did I miss briefs by the ERLC on the other six Obama DOJ lawsuits under this particular law? All six were on the behalf of Islamic worship centers.
But thank you and I will respond after reading. Thanks.
Debbie Kaufman, I am glad that you know that we live in the United States. Can you answer the question as to what makes this situation a religious liberty situation? Aside from the fact that Obama DOJ agrees with you? How do you count seats in a mosque? What about the sew issues was it corrected? What about the percentage of ground covered (wet land issue) and the child pickup/drop off issue? What was the position of our local SBC church less than 2 miles away? Did the ERLC also file briefs on the other six lawsuits filed by the… Read more »
Has anyone thought that their might be real jobs affected by this decision? Jobs of people who had nothing to do with hurting Dr. Graham’S feelings. And why is the Louisiana Baptist Paper reporting on a Texas Baptist Church? Seems like they were all too happy to put that article out there. Did Prestonworld join the Louisiana Baptist Convention.
” why is the Louisiana Baptist Paper reporting on a Texas Baptist Church”
Because the editor is attuned to any news along these lines. Look for the article to be carried on SBC Today as well.
There are agendas being carried out on every side on this.
Because Will Hall schleps for anyone or anything that is anti-Calvinistic. Hence his hit piece against Platt last year and multiple articles about the ERLC.
I think the Louisiana Baptists are considering a similar measure at the state level and that is why they ran this story. There may be something more sinister at play, but I think it is more likely attributed to the fact that this is a very forward question at the state level at present.
I would counter that Dr. Moore does speak for a majority of Southern Baptists, at least the ones I know. If we get rid of the ERLC, aren’t we forfeiting a seat at the table in our government? Do we need to disengage from the political process? Where will our witness be in the halls of power in this country? We should always pay attention to the ERLC, but to withhold funds for missions just because a pastor got his wittle feewins hurt is inapproriate at best and shameful at worst.
Let the states engage on issues with their state politicians at the state and national level…a much better strategy because LOCAL issues of interests to Southern Baptists can also be addressed…and different State Conventions can take the stands that represent THEIR churches.
The “get Dr. Moore ” anti-Calvinist crusade seems to be ramping up. Truth is often a casualty if war – as is decency.
It will be a shame if Rick and his crusaders are able to lead the SBC to abandon religious liberty in the pursuit of this goal.
This comment deserves the insight of the day award.
DAVE MILLER, why do you keep playing the SAME broken record? Who is abandoning religious liberty? Rick is not. I am not. The only truth casualty is the reason why Rick and I are upset with Moore. It is his arrogance and dismissal of people who voted for Trump as sub-Christians.
Allen, Dr. Moore has been the antithesis of what you have accused him of being. Russ Moore has never once accused anyone who voted for Trump as being sub-Christian, and has expressed his understanding for those who voted for Trump because they felt that he was the better choice. Moore criticized those who flagrantly overlooked (and even rationalized) Trump’s continual and unrepentant sinful behavior when they called for Clinton’s head on a silver platter for his moral failures. On another note, Russ Moore’s courageous stance against the behaviors and divisive words of President Trump have been a catalyst for me… Read more »
//It will be a shame if Rick and his crusaders are able to lead the SBC to abandon religious liberty in the pursuit of this goal.// Hardly the insight of the day.
It is a baseless accusation. It would appear that individuals are posting without reading anything Rick says.
This is all happening because Russell Moore refused to kiss the ring. That threatens the status quo of certain SBC pastors who will do ANYTHING to have a seat at the table. This includes Robert Jeffress, Jack Graham, and Ronnie Floyd. Who have all endorsed the President and overlooked and in some cases even defended his actions and statements even when they are indefensible. They are joined by Franklin Graham (who day by day further betrays his father’s non-partisan legacy) and Jerry Falwell Jr. amongst others. What we are seeing now is a systematic attack on a man who stands… Read more »
There are two things Moore and Platt will never be forgiven for, and that is opposing Trump (in the case of Moore at least) and being Calvinist(ic). Calvinists are now being blamed for the lack of evangelism in vacation bible school for crying out loud. I dare say that if we look at the record of the past few years, there isn’t a single ill in the SBC that hasn’t been laid at the feet of Calvinists by the anti-Calvinist blogosphere. It isn’t that these two men can’t or won’t make mistakes, it is that their Calvinism and never-Trumpism make… Read more »
I am a Calvinist. I don’t agree with Moore. It has absolutely Nothing to do with him being a Calvinist, I assure you and nothing to do with being against Trump. I reluctantly vote for Trump. I disagree with where the ERLC is going and with his attitude toward those who supported Trump. He did not act this way toward those who were Obama Supporters, although I will give him that he did not hold this position in 2012. But, I can find nothing where he publically spoke out against any Presidential candidate or their supporters. (Perhaps he did so… Read more »
The reason speaking out against Trump was so important is that he’s always been a Northeastern Leftist, and he has hijacked what was once a Conservative party, and is now fully a Progressivist party. Trump’s boorish behavior, careless tongue, outright lies about inauguration crowds and Obama wire-tapping, familiarity with Russian autocrats and witless foreign policy statements have ruined the Conservative movement, perhaps for generations. And Christians followed along like sheep because he wasn’t Hillary. Sorry to say but they showed more trust in their own paranoia or hatred than in the God who blesses people who stand on principle.
Fair enough. I don’t even think the ERLC should exist, but as long as it does, I appreciate the efforts Moore made during the election, otherwise the SBC would have gone for Trump without a peep. The advice Trump supporters gave for the shocking inconsistency between what we say we believe and voting for Trump, was to simply not tell anyone who you voted for. Perhaps Moore went too far, but I don’t blame someone for going a little crazy when up is suddenly down, black is white, and Trump is a moral good. But make no mistake, if Moore… Read more »
“But make no mistake, if Moore were not Calvinistic, there would not be the organized hue and cry against him that we’re hearing now.” Right on. The coordination is clearly Rick’s and the Connect316Gang’s war. I’d like to know if Rick Patrick or anyone from the leadship/membership of connect 316 outside the membership of Prestonwood knew about or were in any way involved in discussions leading up Dr. Graham’s church announcing this. Also wonder the same about the trustee resigning. It’s also somewhat strange that although the resignation happened back in November that somehow the press report of it, Prestonwood… Read more »
Tarheel,
I remember reading that the trustee, Mr. Haun, asked that his decision to resign not be made public so that the Lottie Moon offering was not affected. I cannot remember which press accounts off hand, but it was reported in this manner more than once. I think that does show something very honorable about his character, regardless of how he may have been portrayed.
But, why did Moore not go after those SBCers who supported Clinton? I think the problem he has is consistency in his application to all equally. If he had spoken about Clinton in the same terms he spoke about Trump, I believe this would be a non-issue. The truth is, most of the Clinton supporters in the SBC come traditionally from black churches, though many did not support her. I am speaking to the matter in the SBC only. Perhaps he was afraid the comments would offend the group he has been trying to unify through his racial reconciliation efforts.… Read more »
HomeschoolFam4, Yes, there were a FEW high profile Southern Baptists publicly supporting Hillary Clinton… But I contend it was very different than the ones who were supporting Donald Trump… Because not a single one of the people that I read, even including Dr. Mckissic, were going around defending Hillary Clinton as a moral Christian person that should receive our vote… They were arguing on the grounds that they believed her to be a better candidate than trump. I thought they were both absolutely horrible candidates and neither deserved our vote. Whereas there was a plethora of Southern Baptist “leaders” and… Read more »
Taking the Galatians 6 phrase “let us do good to all people” and applying it to supporting others in their worship of false gods is a serious abuse of God’s word. Recognize in the opening chapter of Galatians a curse is emphatically pronounced on anyone who would preach an alien gospel. Islam clearly falls in this category. Supporting others in their worship of false gods is in no wise doing them good. The exact opposite is true — it is to do them extreme evil by furthering them in their trek toward eternal damnation. Rather they should be sternly warned.… Read more »
I am not sure it is big news when a former president of the SBC threatens to withhold cooperative program funds. I was in a meeting of missionaries when former SBC president Jimmie Draper said that his church would withhold cooperative program funds if his favorite SBC presidential candidate was not elected. I have heard many other leaders make the same threat though the years. If the statement, “Various significant positions taken by the leadership of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission that do not reflect the beliefs and values of many in the Southern Baptist Convention” refers to the… Read more »
“He’s a Calvinist!”
“How do you know he’s a Calvinist?”
“He looks like one!”
Can you say witch hunt?
The thought that there was a binary choice in the election ignores several factors: 1) That in the primaries there were other viable candidates who didn’t carry with the baggage of the current president, yet more than a handful chose to support him early in the process, ignoring the significant issues that followed him. I’m looking at you Jeffress and Falwell Jr. 2) The option of voting down ticket and leaving the presidential blank was an option available as well…I know that personally, because that is the option I took. And by the way, that brought me great pain, because… Read more »
Well said!
Mike, great post and great questions.
Can I just say, this all boils down to “haters gonna hate.” Lol Just kidding, but this has livened up my Friday morning.
In the words of Dr. Moore, “We are Americans best, when we are not Americans first.” It’s sad that people would rather be seen as a faithful Republican rather than a faithful Christian who is faithful to the Word of God. And the older generations wonder why the SBC is getting greyer. It’s because younger millennial pastors want to be faithful to Christ more than to a political party. I preach at a multi-cultural SBC church in an inner-city context. If I were to preach politically charged topical messages or if the SBC church keep aiming for a political agenda… Read more »
Moore’s quote, in context:
…we ought to remember what a shifting culture might force us to remember, what we never should have forgotten in the first place: that national identity is important but transitory. There will come a day when Old Glory yields to an older glory, when the new republic succumbs to a new creation. We must not shirk from out calling as citizens, but we also must not see our citizenship of the moment as the final word. We are Americans best when we are not Americans first. (160)
I was unfamiliar with this quote. Thank you for posting it to give a bit “Moore” context.
Lance P,
Recognize it is hypocritical and disingenuous for Moore to make the statement “We are Americans best, when we are not Americans first,” and then push his concept of religious liberty which itself is a child of Americanism. One would be hard pressed to make an argument for it outside the American experience from which it originiated. Moore’s concept of religious liberty is no less American than the Bill of Rights. He would certainly be hardpressed to make a clear, concise argument for it from Holy Writ.
Doug,
When I lasted checked my Baptist history books, the concept of religious liberty predates American Baptists. Take a look at Dutch Mennonites living in Amsterdam in the early 1600s who influenced John Smyth and Thomas Helwys before the British set foot in Jamestown, VA and certainly before Roger Williams began advocating for it on American soil in the 1630s. Religious liberty was in full swing (at least in theory) in London by the 1640s-1650s when it was still in its infancy stages in America.
Jason Sampler,
Note that historical, extra-American struggles for religious freedom were almost exclusively struggles for Christian Liberty — a noble aim. What Moores advocates — Polytheistic Religious Liberty — is primarily an American beast.
The concept of religious liberty not only predates the founding of the United States, it predates the founding of the first colony.
As for a biblical argument for religious liberty, see this:
http://praisegodbarebones.blogspot.com/2015/07/the-biblical-case-for-religious-liberty.html
Doug,
Your claim is simply false. Are you unfamiliar with Thomas Helwys’ work, published in 1612, “A Short Declaration of the Mystery of Iniquity”, wherein he calls for the religious liberty of all, even atheists and (gasp) Muslims?
Here are his words:
“Neither may the King be judged between God and man. Let them be heretics, Turks [Muslims], Jews, or whatsoever it appertains not to the earthly power to punish them in the least measure.”
Doug,
“We are Americans best, when we are not Americans first,” your quote there is lacking context and I would venture to say (bet, if I were a betting man) that what you quoted is NOT even the full sentence from the lips/keyboard of Dr Moore.
I wonder if you might include a fuller context lest readers miss important context in your quoting…..
This should be the natural goal of one who espouses desire to examine the “Holy Writ” – I sure hope you value context there more than you have displayed here.
Jason Sampler,
Honestly I’ve never heard of Helwy. I would venture to guess neither have most Americans. We must consider the primary source of core beliefs. For most Americans, their concept of religious liberty is of American origin.
Steven,
Thanks for the link. I will definitely read the article in full. Note that I have no disagreement with the author’s stated thesis: “We must not fight false belief by appealing to the government or other forms of coercive force; rather, we must fight it by testifying to the truth.” Rather, my argument is that it is well within the God-ordained purview of government to restrain the socially destructive evil of false religion. In fact, it is government’s duty.
Jason, In your response to Doug, I would just say that there is one glaring point in the quote you posted: That Helwys was saying that those of different religions should not be punished. That is a far cry from everything is equal to all religions. I am not saying that he did not advocate that elsewhere, but it certainly was not clear in this quote. Also, I would like to note that while there were some who pressed for religious equality meaning all are truly equally free in their practice, John Cotton was opposed to Roger Williams. There were… Read more »
Mike, appreciate your appraisal of the situation. Truncating of any religious freedom potentially sets a precedent for the limitation of any religious freedom. Our courts operate on precedent. Moore’s stance on the Mosque was not a stance in support of Islam, but in support of religious freedom. This is a win for Southern Baptists, but also for Jehovah’s Witnesses, Hindus, Native American religions, and the Black Hebrew Israelites, et. al.
Southern Baptists should do what they can to uphold religious liberty. It is a hard sell to say, “We uphold *our* religious liberty.”
Perhaps people should look up, read and understand the implications of the famous words of Martin Niemoller. The simple truth is there are places in this country (to say nothing of the world) where Christians and Christianity are under increasing levels of attack from extreme liberal citizens and politicians. What happens in the very near future when some city council in some liberal bastion like California, denies say an SBC church a permit to expand their building, creating new special zoning codes just for the case, all because the church does not support homosexual marriage and the liberals want the… Read more »
Perhaps Prestonwood’s “no cp giving” isn’t just to get their way. Leadership may be believe it is being the best steward with their money or maybe even they feel it is against their conscience. There is also a level of concern that the church may have become divided on this issue and temporarily, while they decide what to do long term, this keeps peace amongst brothers. I believe the local church knows what is needed in their body and trust that leadership will do what is right before the Lord. That is also “blackmail”. Threatening to remove them if they… Read more »
Technically, removing a church from the SBC for failing to give $ through the CP is not blackmail. It’s called following the bylaws of the Convention since giving $ is a requirement for membership.
For the record, Prestonwood is still planning to give $$$. They are not suggesting giving nothing. The last time I read through the bylaws, I don’t recall anything about requiring a church to give to the cooperative program. Am I incorrect? That is NOT a reason to remove a church and yes, it is as akin to “blackmail” to remove a church for this reason and it is “blackmail” for them not to give to the program because some ONLY perceive it as a temper tantrum and not a right of conscience.
You are incorrect, but (technically) so was I. It is not in the SBC bylaws but the SBC Constitution. See the end of page 1 and the beginning of page 2, where the requirements for membership in the SBC are discussed: http://www.sbc.net/pdf/sbc-charterconstitutionbylaws.pdf
1. It does NOT have to be CP. It can be given to the Exec Committee or any Entity.
2. It DOES, however, have to be UNDESIGNATED, so special funds would disqualify.
3. At the $60,000 threshold, a church would be entitled to all TWELVE messengers.
Rick is correct that it doesn’t have to go through the CP; it just has to be given to the SBC or one of its entities. I guess Jack Graham is thankful (now?) for the passing of Great Commission Giving.
“I guess Jack Graham is thankful (now?) for the passing of Great Commission Giving.”
LOL! I guess Rick is too, now that it suits his agenda…..
I wondered why the Connect316 gang has gone quiet in regards to the Great commission giving tactic lately…..now it all makes sense.
I am all but certain there is some serious coordination going on here.
homeschool, Leadership may be believe it is being the best steward with their money or maybe even they feel it is against their conscience. There is also a level of concern that the church may have become divided on this issue and temporarily, while they decide what to do long term, this keeps peace amongst brothers.” All the more reason to keep it private and do what they must do as an autonomous church without appearing to be seeking to use their money as leverage….a “benefit” that the vast majority – like 95+\-% of SBC pastors and churches – do… Read more »
I fail to see how this is NOT a Southern Baptist issue. Are we naive enough to think that as the tide continues to turn against Christianity in our country that local governing officials will not use zoning laws to curtail or prohibit the building of Southern Baptist houses of worship? The ERLC is our agency to defend religious liberty wherever it is under attack and Moore is right to do so (even on behalf of Muslims)!
I don’t think the position of these churches has changed. Rather, I think the application of those resolutions by leadership has pivoted and is causing quite a divide among the membership. Regarding the resolution about election those with consistently good character, I would think that the resolution did not take into account that both front runners were morally faulted to the degree any believe was seen in this election. I would argue this is why we must be careful when adopting resolution to be either (1) more specific and Germaine to the issue we intend to address and/or (2) Address… Read more »
What would Graham do if some of his wealthy members decided to escrow their tithes and offerings because they didn’t like some decision he made or sermon he gave and then went to the press to announce they were doing so?
Todd, that is an excellent point!
The objections to it though will be “CP giving is not a biblical mandate and the SBC is not a church”…..
While those things are true….the ATTITUDE, mentality, and the abject arrogance of such control tactics is EXACTLY the same.
He would listen to their concerns and at least make some kind of effort to work things out rather than just telling them to keep on paying even though they have profound concerns with what’s going on.
He would not ignore them, scold them or berate them as inferior dolts. He would not speak to them as if they were disobedient children, the way my fellow Pastor from Arkansas was treated on the floor of the Southern Baptist Convention Annual Meeting in St. Louis.
Rick, my brother, I have to say that our brother from AR made several stereotypical generalizations against all Muslims that were just incorrect and ignorant. Yes, you cannot separate radical jihadism from Islam, but to call all people who are Muslims as those who threaten our very existence and killers is like calling all Christians killers because KKK members call themselves Christians. The pastor who asked that question, in my honest opinion, needed a much stronger rebuke for doing so than the one you say Moore gave him on the convention floor. When it comes to Muslims, instead fighting against… Read more »
You seem to imply otherwise, so let me assure you that, yes, I have sought the redress of my grievances directly. My phone calls and emails being ignored, there is not much more I can do. That is why I sympathize with Jack Graham. When people turn you a deaf ear, you finally resort to the only language they speak. It may be a secular truism, but money does indeed “talk.” I am told that even one of the ERLC Trustees cannot get Moore to return his calls. What hope do any of the rest of us have? As for… Read more »
RM would be foolish to talk to you as your clear bias – which started waaaaaauyyyy before the answer to that pastor from Ark. – and agenda is so set against him – your mind is made up – your blogs are clear – there’s no possible way to make peace you and your gang – you have got one goal – and it’s not unity or peace.
Everyone except, apparently, your 316 posse sees that.
I’m waiting for 316Gang to bring out the placards and chants of “no firing no peace” in the foyer of the convention center.
Wow, Rick. You read a lot into RM’s answer that was neither said nor implied. That may be what you heard, but it is not at all what was said. It’s not even close.
Wait was it Russell Moore that called other Christians “Panty Wastes” or was it someone else?
Rick: Think about it. You along with SBCToday writers twist and rewrite what Moore says in public, in articles, which your misconstruing can be proven by accessing his words. That cannot be done in a phone call with no one else able to corroborate the exchange, or in an email that you could also twist and make public on your blog. During the election JD Greear did not wish to be interviewed by you as well as Russell Moore and David Platt. It’s a smart move, yet that doesn’t stop you acting as if you are their victim and they… Read more »
Rick,
To Todd’s question.
You said…”He would not ignore…..”
So, Rick. There is never a situation where a person or group is so consistently and aggressively obstinate and wrong that ignoring them and moving on with or without them might not be the best course of action?
There would never be a time when, for the sake of unity and godly church order, “calling out” their bad behavior would not be necessary?
I do not think you really believe that.
Rick,
You said: “I am told that even one of the ERLC Trustees cannot get Moore to return his calls. What hope do any of the rest of us have?”
Is there no end to the spurious accusations you’re willing to make to “bolster” your point???
It seems as if you’ve moved from throwing spaghetti against the wall – to throwing poop in the ceiling fan…
I’m going to handle your ceiling fan antics like ya’ll Trumpeters say that we should handle the news media… “Anonymous sources = fake news.”
After wadding through the vast sea of misinformation in the comments, this simply boils down to one true agenda: the good old boys of the SBC are loosing their grips on control. Jack Graham and a handful of other pastors represent the large, mega church pastors who through financial sway and sheer numbers at SBC conventions held the Presidency and authority for years. Things are changing. Younger, academically brilliant and theologically conservative leaders are on the rise. Russell Moore, David Platt and Albert Mohler represent a brand of SBC that wants to get back to the Acts church. They study… Read more »
It’s rather offensive that you lump together those who disagree with Moore, the ERLC or CP giving into a category of power hungry despots. Wow! I am glad no one on here has judged you motivation. In order to keep peace, we must be willing to listen and take others at their word. Until the know what motivates their heart, we must be very careful in judging our brother. I am young, intelligent and would like to see the ERLC dismantled, Moore gone from leadership and the 5% funding going to the ERLC given to missions. I don’t like the… Read more »
//Younger, academically brilliant and theologically conservative leaders are on the rise.//
Good grief! it would seem that arrogance is on the rise, not scholarship.
So nice to see we are slipping into name calling.
I can’t speak for the person who made that statement…but for me – it’s not that these guys are *more* academically brilliant, theologically conservative but that they too are those things like those who came before…
The “younger” statement – is in fact Demonstrably the case though….
😉
I just looked up Prestonwood’s Annual Church Profile in the 2015 Annual of the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention. They reported 39,971 members and $87,215,672 received that year. Their Cooperative Program amount is listed as $500,000, the same as the previous year, not $1 million. SBT forwards 55 percent of that to the SBC Executive Committee–$275,000. According to William T., the ERLC gets 1.65 percent of that–$4537.50. Prestonwood’s average attendance is reported as 15,150. That means the ERLC gets a little more than half a penny per week per Prestonwood’s attendee. (I could not find 2016 statistics online. If someone… Read more »
I would be very interested in seeing a screen shot or link to those ACP figures.
Adam, I don’t know how to post a link here. I can email it to you, if you share your email.
My email address is pastoradamblosser@gmail.com. If you copy and paste the link here, I can make sure it doesn’t end up in moderation.
Excellent thoughts, Mary Ann. I tweeted your comment, highlighting the send and third paragraphs. Important for people to hear.
This comes from a 2009 article related to members of the Great Commission Taskforce and the CP giving of their churches:
Ruben Hernandez, associate Spanish pastor of Prestonwood Baptist Church, Plano, Texas. Church’s CP giving for 2008: $400,000, or 1.44 percent of undesignated gifts/offerings of $27,800,000.
http://www.tciarchive.org/5722.article
Are we supposed to believe that Prestonwood was planning to give twice as much to the CP this year than they gave in previous years?
Mary Ann is right. Something isn’t making sense with the numbers that Prestonwood is spouting off in the media.
The info is on page 76 under Dallas Association. Thanks to Mary Ann for the link.
http://sbtexas.com/am-site/media/2015-annual.pdf
Wonder if they funnel monies in other ways to different institutions and they’re counting that as well?
Still, yeah, that’s half of what the article said. O.o
Maybe. If so, that’s even worse. Not only are the withholding their CP money because some of it goes to the ERLC, but they’re also withholding other SBC gifts in an effort to bully ERLC trustees into submission.
I think that sometimes small churches are overlooked and agree. However, I am a member of a church with Sunday attendance in the 650 category, I think, and our pastor has been given many platforms and is very involved in the SBC. He has held titles on behalf of the convention. While I think that small churches can be overlooked, it is not always the case. Regarding the giving report, I wonder if it is possible that PW started giving less to CP in light of these issues before they went public about it. Perhaps there is giving in other… Read more »
“If there is that much of a movement to withhold funds, I think it deserves serious consideration for the sake of the gospel. If Moore has to step down as a result, he will not doubt have a platform somewhere and the gospel will still be proclaimed. It doesn’t have to be only Moore. ” This would certainly not be the answer. Extortion and then expecting them to cow tow to it “for the sake of the gospel” made me cringe that you would dare to say this. Please, you have no concern for “the sake of the gospel.” It’s… Read more »
“for the sake of the gospel” in this context homeschool, means about as much as Trump’s “Let’s make America Great Again.”
Mike Bergman, You quoted me: “You simply CANNOT require that the SPECIFIC WAY that YOU think a general principle MUST be applied is the ONLY way.” Then you wrote: “Then you should have no problem with Moore’s actions/positions.” But this does not follow in the least. Both statements must be placed in their proper context. Regarding the first statement, when I wrote that there is more than one way to apply a general principle, I was arguing against the philosophy of the Original Post suggesting that SOME Southern Baptists are FOR Religious Liberty and Politicians With Character, while OTHER Southern… Read more »
Rick, traditionally, we Baptists have held religious liberty beliefs that can be summed up in three points: 1) We will fight for your right to freely worship any god, or lack there of, of your choosing. 2) We will fight for our right to freely worship the God we believe is the One True God of all. 3) We will exercise our right by trying to convince you of the Gospel, your need for Jesus, and the truth of our beliefs. Moore has done nothing but continue to walk that path on this issue like those who went before him.… Read more »
“I mean, come on… you did a post including several links to the despicable (and highly unChristian) Pulpit and Pen to further your anti Russ Moore agenda… That says everything right there.”
Yep. This witch hunt has made some strange bedfellows.
The inclusion of JD and his minions is ESPECIALLY telling given how JD treated Ergun Caner and his family. Now I am not fan of Ergun, but if I was him, I would be really upset that my “friends” were now partnering with someone who had attacked my family.
Says a lot about the level of outright disdain held by Moore’s opponents for him. Very troubling.
I see that because I have raised questions about the ERLC and/or Russell Moore – I am now part of some alleged “old boys club”, a Trumpster, and so on. It is hard for me to believe that this is an SBC forum, but then perhaps Acts 17:11 does not apply to the ERLC or Mr. Moore. By the way I am an old fart, I am 68. So I guess I am officially an SBC old boy to some extent. But let’s try again, can any one provide a Biblical justification for a statement such as: First of all,… Read more »
Mike Crane,
Jesus was not an illegal immigrant.
There isn’t anything in the Word to support that.
Second, though the BF&M and the SBC historically have advocated for the defense of religious liberty /freedom of worship for all peoples and faiths, even for those who wish to worship idols, there is nothing in the Bible that supports that Christians should be doing that either.
As for Dr. Moore’s stands against the godlessness portrayed in the recent presidential election, one can be right in content but be less than properly tactful in their protesting.
parsonsmikeparsonsmike
Thank you for the reply. That statement was of course by Dr. Moore. I do not see where his support is coming from when it can so easily be documented that he is making unBiblical statement to the secular media under our name.
If or when the Johnson Amendment is repealed this denomination is going to be in chaos. By the way, Franklin Graham evaluated both candidates, including some Scriptural references. The difference was very obvious.
Mike Crane,
So many times people see things in this way: This OR That.
I thought that both major party candidates were despicable and that we, as a country running from God, would get what we deserve, or at least what we somewhat deserve.
Better we concentrate on living and proclaiming the Gospel and leave godless politics to others.
I am trying to wrap my mind around who this “Anti-Russ” group really is. The vitriol that comes from their camp (sbctoday) is astounding to me. It seems like they will not settle for anything less than the sacrifice of his “platform and career”. But who are they really? They seem to all be very homogeneous on a set of certain beliefs, preferences, and characteristics. These are my observations… -They are mostly from the deep recesses of the Bible Belt. -They are ardently “Traditionalist”. So much so that Soteriology is elevated above all. -They support Trump. -They appose refugee settlement.… Read more »
*oppose
Mike,
Thou art quite astute.
You’re spot on!
Really good list, but you forgot one.
– They thought they were the heirs of the leadership of the SBC b/c they supported the old guard. And since they are not, they are angry and trying to keep “power” by identifying new “enemies” to rally against.
Mike, how perceptive you are in ascertaining that the majority of the Anti Russ movement is from the deep recess of the Bible belt. This is usually a snide comment I hear from my liberal secular friends from the east and west coast who wish to slam the “Bible Belt” believers (me) and to them it is a code word for them “stupid redneck”. I infer perhaps incorrectly you have a similar view of those in the deep recess of the Bible belt, what about those on the fringe of the Bible Belt?, wherever that is. Would it be Brentwood… Read more »
I don’t think any of us believe that Russ’ “platform or career” are in jeopardy. He could lead The Gospel Coalition, be a CNN analyst or fill any number of positions for which he is clearly a better fit than he is in his current office, representing millions of people who feel like he truly despises us.
We don’t see this working out badly for him. (At leastI don’t.)
But it WOULD mean that at least WE DON’T HAVE TO PAY FOR THE VERBAL ABUSE.
I hear there are some comment streams where one can get that for free.
Eric, let me see if I can translate the “bible belt” quip that I think you are missing completely. By “bible Belt” read instead, “legacy states”. As in folk in deep legacy states who are out of touch with what it is like to be a SBC church in frontier states. Folk who think their money is more important and should carry more weight than the money sent by out lying SBC churches that are not in those “legacy states”. It has nothing to do with liberal/conservative, but you keep thinking that, and you keep alienating the largest growing portion… Read more »
This whole issue is so sad. I can see how people can have different views of the wisdom of the legal brief or some of the comments made by Dr. Moore, but to withhold funds from the CP seems like an overreaction. It would seem that we have some churches and pastors who are more thin-skinned about their politics than they are committed to the gospel. Tragic!
The best part of this whole thing is Graham’s duplicitousness. In the article cited on this blog post, Graham claims its not just about one person or one entity, but as recent as last December, he announced that Prestonwood was considering holding back their money because of how Moore opposed Trump in the general election: In the [Wall Street] Journal article, Graham, pastor of Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano, Texas, and a member of Trump’s Evangelical Executive Advisory Board, cited Moore’s criticism of Trump during the presidential campaign for alleged “disrespectfulness towards Southern Baptists and other evangelical leaders, past and… Read more »
Wow! Now we are calling Jack Grahamm “duplicitous”??? This has gone too far. I believe that some are quick to out there with a comment like that questioning his integrity. It is possible that other reason were made by the congregation and leadership as to why they wish to temporarily withhold CP funds. Unless we are part of these meetings, we cannot say for sure. But ouch! This is the type of rhetoric SBC members are tired of. The devil must be pleased when we tear each other down, and so publically and unabashedly. I am sometimes embarrassed to be… Read more »
Do you have a better word for the following scenario:
Graham says in December “We’re giving strong consideration to withholding our CP $ because Moore was disrespectful towards Trump.”
Graham says in February “We’re withholding our CP $ but its because of many things; its not just because of Moore”
What ‘other things’ happened between Dec and Feb that would cause him to do the exact thing that he said he would do but now its for a different reason?
Tarheel,
Please elaborate if you feel I am misquoting Moore. I was simply quoting the reader’s comment.
Nice Try, Doug – but you shall remain cigar-less. You put something in quotes and said it was from Dr. Moore – I challenged you to provide the full context of the remark….
The burden is YOURS not mine – you are the one who said that Dr. Moore said that…I was asking YOU for elaboration.
Doug,
I realize you repeated Lance’s quote… and he has responsibility to elaborate – but since you parroted it without verifying it….it also places the burden on you.
Doug and Lance,
I do not read all the comments in a thread before posting my retorts to you and therefore I missed where the austere and august William “plodder” Thornton bailed both you and Lance out….but alas for you….as I suspected the fuller context does not really fit your narrative.
This just in…..for the sake of “tender conscience” and in order to not be “de-facto unequally yoked” Rick Patrick, Jack Graham, and all the Connect316Gang are now strongly against SBC churches having “Israel solidarity Sundays”, convention and entity leaders speaking of Southern Baptists being “on the side of with Israel” and now strongly object to any and all resolutions passed by the SBC in support of Israel as they are an officially secular nation and devout Jews (absent Messianic ones) are lost and following after false religion. Right fellas? DOn’t want that unequal yoke getting out of hand do ya?… Read more »
“I will curse those who curse you, and I will bless those who bless you.”
(Genesis 12:3)
Support for Israel is not an unequal yoke with Baal, but a stand for the chosen people if Yahweh. May their eyes be opened to behold their Messiah.
It can be and often is confused with an unequally yoke with false religion.
To hear the confusing language spouted by entity heads and even resolutions about them being “God’s chosen people” lends itself to people thinking that The citizens of the Geopolitical nation of Israel are going to heaven simply because they live there…
I support Israel both as God’s chosen nation and as an American ally. But insofar as Judaism rejects Jesus as the Son of God, the Saviour and Messiah, they are a false religion.
Robert, Your last sentence is really my main point. They are a false religion and I ask – for serious thought and reflection – does anyone think that we would have such angst if this amicus brief was filed on behalf of a synagogue? Seriously? The argument is that a simple amicus brief filed in this case is “defacto yoking” us, as Southern Baptists to a false religion…logically and for consistency wouldn’t the same be angst be called for from the corner from which it is coming over the mosque issue if it were a synagogue was embroiled in a… Read more »
second paragraph should end with…
“and an amicus was filed by SBC entities?
Don’t think anyone got bent out of shape on the amicus brief filed re the Little Sisters of the Poor case. Maybe others don’t see it the same, but I consider Roman Catholicism a false religion.
Hey nobody likes their intellectual dishonesty being pointed out in public!
Where is our Executive Committee in all this? Isn’t it time to call together Jack Graham, the other pastors threatening to pull funding, representatives from SBC Today, Russell Moore, David Platt, and some people who are somewhat more neutral in this debate, get together, hash this out and pray? Can’t we do better than this constant battling each other over politics, Calvinism, or whatever the causes are that fuel our proxy wars? Good grief! All these people are conservative on almost all the big issues, all agree with the BFM 2000, and all should be working together with more charity,… Read more »
Tried that a couple of years ago with the “Calvinism task force”.
But alas, the 316Gang is continuining their war and regular upping the ante as we’ve seen with publicity stunts like a resigning trustee and press conferences announcing Prestonwoods extortive tactics.
And 316Gang publishing documents to help churches go on Calvinist hunts!
I would absolutely not offer a place at the table to those threatening to pull funding. It is only rewarding extortion like behavior. Those who are not satisfied with the direction of the SBC have two choices, work to effect change, or leave. This is the complaint I’ve had all along with the Traditionalists who want greater representation in the SBC leadership; they want it without being willing to do the work to make it happen. Non-Calvinists are the vast majority of the SBC. The SBC hasn’t had a Calvinist president in decades (I think), and yet non-Calvinists are powerless… Read more »
As the country continues to spiral downward in unrighteousness, it will not matter how many amicus briefs we signed, or how often we support the secular idea of freedom to worship, for as we stand against the sin of society, we will continue to be marginalized. The less than radical Muslims and the pseudo Christian churches wil kowtow to cultural pressure and will call evil good. The countries that now persecute the church in their lands do not care what our position is on religious liberty. This doesn’t mean we should support any secular initiative that seeks to deny ‘freedom… Read more »
Where is C. B. Scott when you need him? 🙂
I’ve read with great interest the comments on churches that have decided to withhold money as a result of Russell Moore’s decision to sign the amicus brief. When a pastor from Arkansas tried to question Moore in his decision to sign the amicus brief, Moore was arrogant, condescending, and rude (see video on YouTube). I refuse to stick my head in the sand. Maybe churches are reacting to the fact that SBC doesn’t seem to notice until you hit them where it hurts…their pocketbook. That’s the real shame here. Hidden salaries, appointed positions, liberal minded leaders that surrounds themselves with… Read more »
In regards to the Bible Belt comment…
I would ask you to go back and read it. I did not insult anyone, I did not call anyone illiterate or unintelligent…
Quite honestly, I am trying to understand the group of people that are “up in arms” over these situations.
One of my observations is that this group seems to be from a similar geographic background. I did not say that everyone in the Bible Belt believes this.
Molly: I thought Dr. Moore answered the pastor quite well. And for Christians to “hit someone in the pocket book” who was doing his job is just something I don’t understand. When someone preaches against sin in the pulpit and it may hit the congregation between the eyes as it is their sin he is addressing should that be the stand the congregation takes? I don’t get it. Especially when this is not a human rights issue, but a Trump issue. Politics. I just don’t get it.
I would also add that I think Dr. Moore was standing for human rights issues as well as moral high ground in his stand. I see that in scripture everywhere as Christ, Paul etc. did the same thing. Would you say it was right to hit Paul in the pocketbook? He was bringing Gentiles and Jews together in the same church for the cause of Christ and welcomed both. Giving both the Gospel.
You probably suppose that he was arrogant, condescending and rude if you disagree with him. Frankly I found the question to be snide, leading and petulant.
SVMuschany, I do not understand the explanation that the Bible Belt description equated to a “Legacy State” description . Legacy is something left behind, passed on by an ancestor or predecessor from the past so if I am from Wisconsin am I in a legacy state? Is Alabama a legacy state. List the “legacy” states for me as I truly do not understand. The Bible belt label is one widely used by many and is well known and understood with both good and bad contentions depending on who you are listening to. Missouri use to be the frontier gateway ,… Read more »
If you claim to be apart of SBC life but have never heard of “legacy state” then boy you have been living in a hole in the ground. Really…I have no idea how to respond to this. It’s like trying to talk with someone claiming to know all about baseball, but they don’t know who the Yankees are.
The lingo is not universally known. If I were not a Baptist, I would bet a large sum that only minority would know what constitutes an SBC legacy state. The SBC is far larger than SBC Voices and other sites.
I’ve been SBC since 1982 and I’ve never heard the term.
I use it a lot…maybe invented it…may license the use of it: “Make the Legacy State Conventions Great Again…make a ton of money and retire in comfort.
svmuschany, Thanks for nudging me into looking up some info I should have before I posted. I did take the post literally due to my ignorance on the subject. To clarify, I am a layman and have come here to learn as it is mostly post from Pastors and SBC seminary educated people and I enjoy the different perspectives , give and take. I see little input from lay people but perhaps I am wrong as I am making a assumption most here are Pastors or full time service. I just never retained or perhaps never knew that the “legacy”… Read more »
Dr. Moore’s response was not “arrogant, condescending, and rude.” It was a forceful presentation of the historic Baptist position on the issue. A position that would have likely received near unanimous support until a few years ago.
What leaders in the SBC are “liberal-minded?” I am not aware of any.
See y’all in Phoenix! It’s going to be a fun one!
BTW–if this issue is really important to you, you WILL show up at your local Association meetings, your State Convention meetings, and the SBC Annual Meeting in Phoenix. In-person involvement always accomplishes more than online bloviating. Hope to see you there!
I’ll be there. As I have been for many times before and I do participate in my Association and state convention….so there is that. Since that has been brought up….I did a little survey at an Assoc. pastors breakfast where around 2/3 of our pastors were present and I asked them – “do any of you think Russ Moore stepped over the line in his criticism of Trump” the resounding answer was no. I followed up with; “should he be reprimanded or fired?” Here are some of the comments made: “Why would anyone think he had stepped over – all… Read more »
Tarheel, I do agree with you that the majority of SBC members do not know, follow or even aware of Russell Moore who job is to explain, defend and present SBC viewpoints to the secular world. It is fortunate for R. Moore that the majority of SBC members are not following his actions. How would the average SBC lay member relate to their spokesman referring to himself as “in many ways a survivor of the Bible Belt”. How would they react if they knew Dr. Moore presented Trump supporters as the “Jimmy Swaggart wing” of SBC, Rubio supporters the “Billy… Read more »
The Southern Baptist Convention has become Donald Trump.
As one we all know would say, “Sad!”
What’s the big deal? Who cares if a group of Muslims either do or don’t build a mosque in New Jersey? Who cares whether some guy who heads up the ERLC either does or doesn’t file an amicus brief regarding a construction permit to build a mosque. Whatever the ERLC does or doesn’t do is second order at best. I don’t think 99.9% of us guys in the pews would even notice if the ERLC disappeared tomorrow. We don’t even know what they are doing except when they start a chain reaction that leads to all of this dirty laundry.… Read more »
I neither voted for Donald Trump nor Hillary Clinton. I wrote in the name of Robert Kennedy on my ballot because I was going to vote for him in the first presidential election I could participate in and they killed him, just like they killed John Kennedy and Martin Luther King, men whom I saw as speaking to vital issues and who, each in their own way, drew a picture of a world that ought to be, not the world as it was. I was young and God was just stirring in me and I wanted it to be so… Read more »
On my 2/18 post at 2.18 I added the information about Dr. Moore’s salary, car and vacation time to add shock value. Of course I do not know what Dr. Moore or any SBC leader makes, very few people do by design. I am a layman, I was and am shocked that the expenses, salary, compensation and benefits including book deals, travel are not readily available at the very least to the churches who contribute to the SBC. I am sure the vast majority of SBC members would be shocked and bewildered if they knew about this lack of transparency… Read more »
There are so many “bottom lines” in this discussion, it’s almost impossible to summarize it all. What Graham and Prestonwood has done is nothing new. Ron West correctly mentioned Jimmy Drapter threatening to withhold CP support. Mid-America Seminary exists because of the withholding and redirecting of contributions due to concerns about theology at the seminaries. I like Russell Moore. I believe he is a good spokesman for the SBC. I don’t agree with this statements regarding Trump supporters. I disagree with some, but not all, of the ERLC emphases and initiatives. For example, I don’t recall the ERLC saying anything… Read more »
I am a lay member of an SBC church. In this forum and others have asked one or more of the following questions and quite honestly they have not been answered. I see a lot of Pastors that seem quick to speak but slow to listen. Questions about the ERLC have been asked and quite frankly there has been more criticism of those asking questions than answers provided. But Acts 17:11 tells us to check the Scripture to see if what we are being told is true. Biblical justifications have not been forthcoming … So here are some questions from… Read more »
As to your point 5 – it is something well taken. The defense of Russell Moore has primarily dealt with a Convention Resolution on the Morality of Political Candidates which passed in 1996 (I believe). The most recent resolution on Israel was passed this past year in 2016. Where was the defense of Israel in the matter of the UN vote in December by the ERLC based on the commitment to support Israel by messengers in the 2016 resolution? Your silence is golden and understandable under the circumstances. Russell Moore must be defended at all costs = even in the… Read more »
How can a town that elected a Muslim mayor be a hotbed of discrimination? How could a country that elected LBJ in ’64 in a landslide election be a hotbed of discrimination against African Americans? How can a country that elected a black man president in 2008 and 2012 still have racial problems?
Tony, that is a dodge not an answer. The ERLC and possibly yourself have determined that it was a case of religious discrimination — along with the Obama DOJ. How was that determination made?
The permit was denied for 4 reasons, the parking issue was only one. Something about sewer, cild pickup and drop off and percentage of ground cover (wet lands issue).
Was the permit being declined even a religious issue?
What does our local church – less than two miles away say?
I find it funny that the ones saying the trustee system is not a rubber stamp forget not too many months ago that Dr. Platt was forced to come forward with evidence that the IMB had blown through millions of dollars…all these funds were approved by the trustees (no accountability to the SBC, which is another topic entirely) that was news to the SBC. What would happen if pastors tried that in our churches? If you really think that the Trustee board of most (if not all) SBC entities don’t simply rubber stamp the agenda put in front of them,… Read more »
The trustee system has weaknesses and has failed us on occasion but I don’t see anything better being proposed.
I never told my churches CP money was 100% missions money but would explain the allocations once or twice a year.
Us being on the celebrity system (i.e. Megapastors drive the bus) has plenty of flaws as well.
I’ll be a cooperating SB until I find something better.
Wesley: The CR is in the past. How long are we going to let wrong pass by because someone led the CR movement. Just as it did not help Judge Presley last year at the Convention it cannot continue to be held up as a reason to bypass wrong doing. To with hold monies to have one’s way is extortion in my book. At the least it’s bribery. It’s wrong. Then to announce it to the press, that’s bribery with a motive. It’s wrong. And over what? A doctrinal move to liberalism? No, it’s a move to higher moral ground,… Read more »
No to withhold monies is every church’s right. Some of you folks are acting as if the CP has a divine right to the money of autonomous churches. Regardless of which side you are on concerning Dr Moore, it is not extortion to withhold money that belongs to you.
John: I think the charge of extortion is not the idea that the church owes that money to the CP, but from withholding funds they would normally give but now will not until they get their way. Their money is their money, but publicly declaring the withholding that money until the SBC fixes whatever they don’t like sounds a little like extortion.
John W.,
It it is blackmail/ extortion to dangle $1 million that you have normally given to them over the head of someone until they do what you want…
To hold a press conference saying we have $1 million and you can have it if you do what we want… Sure seems pretty close to blackmail/extortion.
John W: Please reread my entire comment. I am all for following the lead of God. If one is led by God to withhold funds then quietly doing that is the only way to go. But does it sound like the Father leading someone to withhold a large sum of money, call a press conference and announce that until someone shapes up politically, we are going to withhold this money? Does that move you spiritually to raise your hands to God and praise Him?
“I never told my churches CP money was 100% missions money …”
Exactly. No one I know ever has either….except Lottie and Annie which aren’t CP.
Wait…so is CP Missions or is it not??? If it’s not then why are we discussing it. People on here are attacking Graham as if it’s breaking a Commandment against God to handle money for Missions in a different way instead of blindly writing a check for CP. Furthermore, we are sold a bill of goods every year that CP=Missions. And everyone judges based on the CP%. The original intent of CP was Missions. It has become a bureaucracy. Are you okay with all the excesses of CP? Or should we attempt to examine what’s going on and maximize dollars… Read more »
What current excesses Wesley.?That has already been discussed but I have no idea what excesses are being done currently. Giving to the c
Again and for the umpteenth time. When a church leader has a large sum of monies( I don’t think according to the facts that it’s an actual million) and calls the press, telling them he will not give that monies until these demands are met, that is the problem. But I think you know that.
Wesley: I would hardly use the word blindly follow. I know you don’t know many of our past experiences, but if you did this would not be your argument.
You say Jack Graham is a man of integrity. Who loves the SBC. I have to question that based on some of his tactics, this being the most outrageous. His interviews on the subject of Moore have been less than stellar. His statements lack factual backing.
Well Debbie open your eyes. Company cars, lunch meals on a daily basis on CP dime, increased personnel, “vision” dinners where people are flown in and are treated to nice dinners and hotels, refusal to allow us to see budget items and expenses…ridiculous traveling when useage of technology would suffice…I can go on….the CP has become worse than D.C. in some ways. All the above I’ve personally seen. All the while I’m told to give more to cp. give give give. If you don’t give then you aren’t a real Southern Baptist. If I led the church I shepherd in… Read more »
The foundational principle of the “five resolves” listed by the author of this post, and also the root of the ERLC’s mistep in regards to this mosque issue is contained in the first resolve: “RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Phoenix, Arizona, June 14-15, 2011, restate our long-standing view that religious liberty is an inalienable human right, rooted in the image of God and possessed by all human beings;” Perhaps the ERLC’s actions could be justified as noble if it weren’t for the fact that the fundamental tenet of the first resolve is solidly contradicted… Read more »
Except there is nothing to correct Doug W. This is where I don’t understand you posting here. You are not Southern Baptist so I am sure you disagree with us, and I am sure you disagree with other denominations. Do you keep posting on their site too. That is like going to a foreign country and expecting them to change their customs. It just isn’t going to happen, so why continue to visit there if you don’t agree.
Debbie,
To paraphrase Paul, “If all were Southern Baptist, where would the body be?”
That said, I am partially Southern Baptist.
Whether we are by our nature children of wrath or by the blood of Christ children of God is neither here nor there in this debate. Religious liberty is not a statement of our moral condition before a Holy God but is a limitation on the power of the state to require, by threat of force, a particular action or belief. Religious liberty is not about being slaves to sin but being free from the imposing power of the state to compel religious belief or practice.
JohnR,
In one sense you are correct, but nevertheless the view of religious liberty espoused by Moore is predicated on the theological error popularized by Jefferson: “Almighty God hath created the mind free.”
I address it from your perspective here: https://christcommonwealth.org/2017/02/20/religious-harm-natural-right/
I read your link. Whether you claim the title or not, you are a theocrat and a foolish one at that. Your position is that the government should use force to ensure correct action on behalf of the Christian faith in the life of its citizens. You are a theocrat because of your belief in using the government to accomplish spiritual and religious aims of the faith ( what ever those exactly are). You are foolish because that time, if it ever existed in America, has long past. Advocating for a Christian Theocracy in America is suicidal if not delusional.… Read more »
I wonder if Prestonwood Baptist church voted to escrow this money? Or if the decision was made by the “leadership”, announced to the public, and then at some point later will be taken to the membership?
I don’t remember seeing in the statement from Prestonwood – perhaps I missed it – correct me if I’m wrong – that this was done by church vote.
Speaking of tweets from Jack Graham….
It sure was nice of him to shower praise upon the “faith” of Melania Trump yesterday on Facebook.
twitter…not facebook.
I did not see Jack Graham’s tweet.
I heard the First Lady recited the Lord’s Prayer at the event, and I understand people followed along. I did not see this, but only heard about it.
By your use of quotation marks, I take it you are critical of her for doing this, or just critical of Jack Graham?
Debbie K. , I am a layman and am here and monitor other sources gathering information about what is happening in the SBC leadership especially the ERLC. I became aware of Dr. Moore and his viewpoints 10-9-2016 reading an article in the Washington Post which I thought did not represent SBC membership well. The article title was something like”If Donald Trump has done anything , it is to snuff out the religious right”. I went back and started following R. Moore on twitter and his blog. I agreed with him when he seem to indicate the SBC should stay out… Read more »
I will be honest here Eric C, in that I don’t believe in blocking someone on social media because their view is different from mine. The question you posed of Hilary is a tiring one to say the least. It’s like little children who when they are disciplined point the finger and say but so and so did….. why don’t you punish them? Hillary is not something that needed to be addressed in my opinion. It would take endless, endless time to address both issues and the issue was not Christians voting for Hillary, which to be quite honest was… Read more »
We have been in an SBC for nearly twelve years now. We started out as a young married couple and now we are raising our three children in the same church. We are active and serve in a variety of lay positions; teaching Bible studies, Deacon and Elder board, Children’s Ministry, etc. Like many others at our church (average attendance of 650-800) of our age and status in life, mid 30’s with kids, we were conflicted about the most recent election. Our conflict became null and void though when we heard the tape of President Trump boasting and joking about… Read more »
It’s too bad your church is known for being political.
Knowing God and following Jesus has nothing to do with politics!
People who love the Lord can be on both sides of the divide.
Wish you the best.
What is most unfortunate is that our local pastors for the most part remained pretty silent on candidates during the election, though they did speak on religious liberty, abortion, etc. The witness to our unsaved friends was tarnished because there were so many national evangelical leaders regularly on TV promoting Trump and defending his immorality – that our unsaved friends – rightly- saw the blatant hypocrisy and said so.
“We have been in an SBC…” Yes. I just posted on another column here re: our *Jesus* witness in our small and medium towns here when our leadership seems more focused on which “side” is “winning” in U. S. politics. And Mr Louis, Yes. I would invite you to come down to the deep south and stay for a while. But I agree with you 100%. Thank you both for caring enough to write.
J&J Debut:
I commend your pastors for staying silent during the election.
My pastor remained completely silent, as did our Sunday School classes and elders.
We have a fair amount of political diversity in our church, and we want to keep that.
We do speak to issues, but not in disguise so as to bash candidates.
Some issues are pretty clear.
Other issues are pretty murky. The Bible doesn’t give us clear guidance.
We speak only to the issues we believe to be clear.
Debbie, Dr. Moore has insulted and demeaned the majority of SBC members who disagreed with him on political issues, that is very clear and undeniable. He uses many straw man arguments and does not name names such at the radio criticism, the former leaders who are described as “Elmer Gantry meets Elmer Fudd”. There was no need to go involved in a political parties primary race for the SBC especially after rejecting the political aspect of the Moral Majority days. The NJ mosque issue was settled as a zoning issue by the courts. There is only one way communication from… Read more »
Eric, I’m still genuinely trying to see how Dr. Moore’s position on religious liberty is different than what Southern Baptist have always taught and what Christians of almost every stripe have always believed… http://www.russellmoore.com/2016/06/08/religious-freedom-non-christians/ Also you said: “This was an easy call at the beginning, stay out of partisan politics, but it became a personal issue with Moore. ” First, you’re suggesting that a person who is president of the ethics commission stay out of one of the most visible aspects of our society the deals on a daily basis with ethics? Also why this new condition on the head… Read more »
Tarheel,
Sadly, Moore does not allow comments on his blog site. I’ve tried to address his incorrect view of Religious Liberty as an inalienable right in my own post.
https://christcommonwealth.org/2017/02/20/religious-harm-natural-right/
The religious liberty argument seems to be a red herring. It seems like the only reason that some are concerned about the religious liberty of others is to insure that they get what they want when they play the religious liberty card. I don’t get the idea that the concern for the religious liberty of others is out of love for them. I am not a traditionalist, and I have been critical of most of Rick Patrick’s positions on the Trad’s vs. Calvinist’s issues. I am in hearty agreement with what he has posted regarding Russell Moore and the ERLC.… Read more »
Tarheel, I have written several comments on this blog about my viewpoints so I will not rehash. As I have stated I like a majority of SBC lay members was unaware or did not follow the SBC leadership actions certainly not the ERLC. I went to Church and trusted the leadership was doing the right thing. I do not know much about Richard Land other than he was associated with the SBC and when I did hear him on radio I agreed with him, which is what the average SBC layperson status was, Mr. Land was in the past and… Read more »
But, he’s apologized for the tone of his rancor – But trust me when I say this if he were to apologize for the substance of what he said in the calling out of a rank and moral, vile, Canada at home garner the support of many many evangelical leaders and laypeople despite repeated calls from the Southern Baptist convention against such types of persons when they were Democrats… So actually for Russell Moore to speak out against Donald Trump was absolutely in keeping with Southern Baptist official thought and resolutions passed at various conventions. I will not rehash the… Read more »
Edit of first paragraph above (2/20 – 12:55) Russell Moore has rightly apologized for the tone of his rhetoric…But trust me when I say this if he were to apologize for the substance of what he said in the calling out of a rank immoral, vile candidate Who was strangely garnering the support of many many evangelical leaders and laypeople despite repeated calls from the Southern Baptist convention against such types of persons when they were Democrats he would be committing a grave error. So actually for Russell Moore to speak out against Donald Trump was absolutely in keeping with… Read more »
Tarheel: I note that you said that Dr. Moore “has rightly apologized for the tone of his rhetoric”. That’s not accurate. Dr. Moore apologized for wrongfully criticizing Christians who did not deserve it. Here’s what Dr. Moore said: “I remember one situation where I witnessed a handful of Christian political operatives excusing immorality and confusing the definition of the gospel. I was pointed in my criticisms, and felt like I ought to have been. But there were also pastors and friends who told me when they read my comments they thought I was criticizing anyone who voted for Donald Trump.… Read more »
Louis: I thought Dr. Moore’s apology ok. You say he is young, as if he doesn’t know what he is saying. He’s 45 Louis. That is quite old enough to have some wisdom and Dr. Moore articulates very well. He chooses his words wisely, so to dismiss him is doing yourself a disservice. He was taking a moral stand, using Christian principles. He got blasted for it. It’s always fine to blast Calvinists, or non-Believers or other groups, but God forbid if the guns turn on them. That’s the height of hypocrisy. Pulling funds if led by God is one… Read more »
My comment about Dr. Moore was complimentary.
Remember the first rule about having a productive dialogue with someone with whom you disagree. Represent your counterpart ‘s views accurately.
I have not said or implied most of what you say I said.
This was Dr. Moore’s first foray into a Presidential election. I am sure the next time will look very different.
We are already seeing a different Russell Moore on the way he reacted to the refugee/immigration executive order. And that is a good thing.
I am still at a loss to see how RM’s articulated view ( and lets assume underlying philosophy of actions) of Religious liberty is not Biblical, appropriate, and thoroughly Baptist??? Can someone show me where this is case?
https://vimeo.com/190441714
Tarheel, First, i am not against R Moore. I am addressing what you call the underlying philosophy of religious liberty as being Biblical. Let us separate two distinct actions. One is Christians using the government to hinder unchristian religious choices [like a zoning committee prohibiting a mosque due to parking]. The other is stepping inland in some way aiding an unchristian religion in any way [such as filing an amicus brief]. The first way is clearly unbiblical for our weapons of warfare are not as the world’s. We are not to use secular means to combat spiritual problems. And a… Read more »
Tarheel:
I don’t believe his view is different.
I am not upset by the mosque thing. That’s the ERLC’s job. I didn’t think the IMB should have weighed in, especially without Trustee deliberation. Platt has come around to that view as well.
Mike,
Watch the video again. He didn’t argue we should look to the govt. for blessing.
Louis, Agreed. As you stated Moore was absolutely right to involve the ERLC. This is not an issue at all and shouldn’t be. I’ll also add that RM was ALSO right to speak out as he did during the campaign… As for Platt – I said before that reasonable people, like you, feel that it was distracting and unwise – perhaps it was -to join the brief – but i contend it was not wrong or inappropriate for the IMB to do so. I said in another discussion that Dr. Platt has demonstrated to us great humility and leadership in… Read more »
Tarheel, Before i address that, let me point out where conflates two different things. He says that if we do not stand up for religious freedom we can not witness the Gospel to a people we are trying to run out of town. Those are two different things: [a]not standing up for religious freedom and [b] trying to run them out of town. TWO separate actions. One is NOT doing something and the other is DOING something. We are NOT to using secular means to fight spiritual battles, hence we should not seek to run them out of town. But… Read more »
Tarheel, How does petitioning a secular court concerning a secular law enable us to keep a blessing that has a supernatural origin [its from God]? Instead of petitioning the secular court, we should be petitioning the heavenly Lord. Instead we put our name and His on the idea that there IS a freedom of worship to what we say in other places are false gods and a religion that leads one to everlasting fire. On the one hand we call it a freedom to worship Allah, while on the other hand we say there isn’t an Allah. On the one… Read more »
As a pastor of an SBC church in Alabama, I am deeply grateful for Russell Moore and I support his leadership at the ERLC. I don’t know how this controversy will end, but I hope through patience, prayer, and grace, we can turn down the heat of the anger and retract actions to financially harm the convention because of these political differences. The ERLC has not deviated from affirming a strong pro-life ethic, has stood firm that marriage should be heterosexual, has championed compassion for immigrants while acknowledging the need for improved national security, and has been consistent with historic… Read more »
Tarheel:
Platt is doing a great job.
And I will concede that the Trump phenomenon is quite a curve ball for folks to handle.
Pride and arrogance are rampant, and have been for years, in the SBC.
I appreciate the calls to “prayer” from Gaines and Floyd; but how about someone standing up with the guts and calling this denomination to repentance from pride? Calling us to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God?
God shares His glory with no man.
ParsonMike,
I like the way you stated things….we can talk about freedom of religion all day, but if we Baptists do our part to sustain idol worship that leads to an eternal hell, I can’t imagine we have done much good for the sake of “freedom”.
“we can talk about freedom of religion all day, but if we Baptists do our part to sustain idol worship that leads to an eternal hell, I can’t imagine we have done much good for the sake of “freedom”.” Do you feel the same about support for allegiance to devout Jews who are practicing false religion? How about charasmatic churches who pervert the gospel? The liberal baptist church down the road. Are any or none of these worthy of religious liberty? They’re paving the road to hell so you’d be fine with zoning laws zoning them out of existence or… Read more »
Tarheel, No one is WORTHY of religious liberty. But there is a difference between ACTIVELY seeking to run Muslims or Mormons or Jews or Pentecostals out of town by using zoning issues or some other secular means AND getting involved in calling slavery-in-worship freedom-of religion AND going to bat for such a misnomer. If the goal of fighting for religious [so-called] freedom is to protect our own freedom of worship here in the USA, then we are as guilty of using secular methods to fight spiritual battles as the Christians who use town councils to zone out Mosques. We are… Read more »
Reminds me (true story) of the zealous Christian who was observed on his knees praying by his car which had a flat tire, in the rain no less. Alas, God didn’t change or heal the tire.Someone had to get his hands dirty for the devoted gentleman to get home. I accept that there are those who for their own conscience decline to actively defend religious liberty. Fine. The rest of us will spend our money, take the criticism, and get our hands dirty. There isn’t much of a discussion to be had on the subject with the anti-Islam crowd, the… Read more »
William,
Agreed.
Mike,
So clearly you feel that we should never be working “in the secular arena” as it relates to our laws and certainly not with regard to
Universal religious liberty.
Ok. Got it.
I disagree.
Respectfully, I can live with our disagreeing.
Tarheel,
Of course you can live with this disagreement brother.
And we can still love each other and keep each other in prayer.
William, We have a basic disagreement. You think we should be defending religious liberty. And you think by seeking to defend it for those who wish to further their bondage to sin and they and others call it [ex: like building a Mosque] freedom to worship is the way [or one way] to do it. I think that such actions will do nothing to further our religious liberty. Helping fix another flat tire [as they seek to commit a crime] will not aid you when your tire becomes flat. And this is for two reasons: Aiding others in their pursuit… Read more »
William,
Just for the record,
I am not any more anti-Islam then I am anti-Mormon or JW or any other false religion. I am not anti-immigrant nor do I fear Islamic immigrants.
And I think that Christians using zoning laws to keep a Mosque or an Islamic cemetery away as a means of spiritual warfare [or due to their fear] is wrong and unchristian.
Their is a difference between fighting against a people and aiding them in their bondage. I think both are wrong.
Dr. Moore and David Platt got the SBC into this lawsuit against the N.J. town when it was not needed . The Obama justice department was right on the case representing the mosque. It was settled in the court as a zoning issue which is very common no matter what the organization is. Towns use zoning to block Wal Marts, either for or against casinos, shopping centers and the list goes on. So this issue was not one for the SBC to be concerned with except it fits the new, open, liberal, non judgmental, we are not the 1845 slave… Read more »
In response to the article itself, I’ll tell you what changed. It is really quite simple. The possibility of electing Hillary. Does the writer not understand this? If Satan were running against Trump, and one of the two of those is going to win, would you really not vote or vote for a third party candidate? If you answer yes to either of those two options, then you cannot be reasoned with. That would be the same reasoning why Rahab the Harlot, you might argue, should have told the truth about where the spies were actually hiding. It is the… Read more »
I still would have voted Darrell Castle. The lesser of two evils is still evil, and my conscience remains clear.
Castle got my vote.
Tom Johnson, I write this comment not so much to belabor the ongoing and tiresome (IMO) discussion about Trump and the election as to dialogue about your general proposition about the lesser-of-two-evils approach to politics in a democratic society and the supposed parallels to the Egyptian midwives and Rahab. In 1996, Josh McDowell and Norm Geisler published an interesting book titled Love is Always Right: The Answers to Ethical Dilemmas, Challenging Situations, Difficult Decisions. The basic thesis is that we are not called upon as Christians to choose between the lesser of evils, but are rather guided by overarching principles… Read more »
I sent Dr. Graham, Pastor of Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano, TX the following message through his website: Dear Dr. Graham, It is with heavy heart that I am contacting you. I am a pastor. I am a Southern Baptist. I am a supporter of the Cooperative Program. I recently became aware that your church is escrowing and/or withholding CP funds to political ends. That fact alone saddens me deeply. I intend to personally contact every pastor that I hear has led their congregation to such a move. I am not endorsing or supporting anything that Dr. Moore or any… Read more »