(Editor: Dan Barnes is the Associate Pastor of Heartland Community Baptist Church in Sioux City, Iowa. He has some interesting perspectives here, so enjoy the discussion and play nice.)
I am excited and encouraged by the movement taken by the Southern Baptist Convention with the Great Commission Resurgence. I am excited to see so many coming together to focus on reaching the lost and touching the down and out. I am excited to see where God’s Plan for Sharing takes us during this decade and I am optimistic. I do have some concerns, however, that I think are holding us back. More than that, I fear that God will not bless our efforts if a few things don’t change within our churches, our ministries and our modes of operation. I am throwing these things out there as concerns of mine, feel free to disagree, I know many of you will think I am off base. Come, let’s reason together to see the bigger picture.
My first concern I have to say is the way we present the gospel. As a Professor once told me “Southern Baptists preach grace, but we live works.” There are a number of ways that we do this, so let’s start at the beginning with Salvation. We have taken God out of the equation all together, and salvation has been reduced to a simple decision. All I have to do is accept it, reach out and take it, as long as I make the choice, I do the deed, I do the right thing and make the right decision. Will someone explain to me how that is NOT works theology? Is God saving me, or is God passive here, and I go get my own salvation. After all, I went to church, I listened to the sermon, I walked the isle, I said the prayer, I made a good decision, right? Now I know many of you are already starting to seethe with the “C” word. I won’t tell you if I am or if I am not a Calvinist, because that is not the point. The point is, we have given the pastor and the individual all the glory. If I preached a message, then I led someone to Christ, and they went and got salvation (we use the word received, because it sounds more passive), then who gets the glory? We give God glory because He made us so smart?
Don’t get me wrong, I am not against people coming forward and praying and asking for forgiveness, but we have the process wrong in our heads. We preach the gospel, that’s it. We need to tell people they stand in judgment before a Holy and Righteous God, that they are lost and that they need Jesus. At the sermon of Pentecost, Peter didn’t give an alter call. He didn’t need to, the Holy Spirit touched the people and they responded. We knew they needed a Savior because of the message, and they didn’t need to be told to make a decision. They made a decision because the Holy Spirit worked in them and touched them, and Peter gives God the credit. In verse 39, he says “For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” Acts 2:39 (emphasis mine). Peter didn’t say “for everyone who hears my preaching.” Folks, we have to give credit where credit is due, and begin to give God glory of salvations. For far too long we have taken far too much credit. Any time our salvation message gives glory to the preacher, to the sinner, to the church or to anyone other than God, than we have missed the mark, lost our mind and we have sinned. We must take the pride from our evangelism.
We have put too much of God’s work on our shoulders. One of the phrases that has really started to bother me is “damage our witness”. What that really means is, if you mess up, you can’t lead someone to the Lord. There are so many thing wrong with that, it’s hard to know were to begin. I am not saying we have free license to sin, so I don’t want a bunch of comments saying “so it’s ok to act however you want”. That’s not that point. The point is, how can you damage the fact that you were once dead, standing in judgment and now you are a child of God, even if you break a rule, if you sin, if you really blow it, God still loves and forgives you. Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. No, just like Paul says in Romans 6:1 that we don’t continue to sin because we have grace, but we strive to be more like Jesus because of grace. So then, where did the talk of damage our witness come from? If my job is to preach the gospel, share with people that they are sinners in need of a savior, and the Holy Spirit does the rest, where does this ideology come from? The idea that I need to protect, build and maintain my witness in order to do the work of the Gospel. We have built a structure of works, or law and legalism to the point we are blinded by it and accept it as gospel truth. In reality, the people who are often the most successful at sharing their faith are people who are trying to get out of the mess of life where Jesus found them. I have seen addicts and down and out people who Jesus reached down and touched, and they shared their heart, and the Spirit moved. They are still in the depths of their sin and addiction, but God used them. They didn’t have to earn it.
We tell people that they don’t have to earn grace, they don’t have to earn salvation, but they have to earn the right to take communion. We love the passage in 1 Corinthians verse 27, that if we eat in an unworthy manor, we are guilty of profaning the body and blood. My question become, what is an unworthy manor? If someone is newly saved, but still has issues, are they unworthy to take communion? If someone gets in a fight with their spouse on the way to church, can they take communion? We have taken this passage out of context so far, that most of us aren’t even sure what the surrounding passages are all about. Paul is chastising the Corinthians for their treatment of one another. The “haves” and the “have nots” are separated, and the sin committed is against the body, as it says in verse 29. “For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.” 1 Corinthians 11:29-ESV (emphasis mine). Notice it doesn’t say “body and blood”, just body. The reason is simple, it’s referring to the Body of Christ, the church, the community. Instead, we have taken this passage and made it about me as an individual, if I am worthy and if I have earned the right to partake in this remembrance. In doing so, I believe we are often guilty of the same sin as the Corinthians, looking at the “have nots” as not worthy to participate in communion. In reality, none of us are worthy, the only thing good in us is the Spirit of the Lord.
Lastly, I believe that God will not bless us for the way we have treated and used His Word. We have proof texted our ideals to the point that we don’t know what the word really says or really means. Let me give you one example that is the most common and obvious. I have heard many, many pastors and leaders over the years condemn tattoos because it mutilates the body, and of course it says in Leviticus not to get a tattoo. Have you ever read that passage of scripture? Why is the tattoo portion still valid, but we can wear mixed fabrics? Yes, cotton blends are forbidden according to that same passage. So are goatees and eating fruit off a fruit tree before it’s produced for 4 years. The common Southern Baptist has no context for that passage at all, but it says something we like. We don’t like tattoos, because bikers and sailors get tattoos, they are bad people and we don’t want them. We found a verse that fits our ideology, and we use it. Then we throw in the “your body is a temple” and “honor God with your body” without any thought to the meaning, text and ramifications or implications. We have used and misused the scripture for our purposes, and that does not glorify the Lord.
In my opinion, we have sins and issues in the Convention that need to be repented from and corrected before we can really see a Great Commission Resurgence. I welcome your thoughts and comments about this issue. We have addressed the issues of programs, of partnerships, of priorities. We have looked at allocation of funds, personnel, vision and ministry focus. Now we must examine the spiritual aspect of the community of Christ that calls themselves Southern Baptists if we ever want to see an impact made for Christ. I truly believe God will never bless anything that doesn’t give Him the glory and honor.
I heard a message by a well-known Baptist pastor who said that at one point, he threw away about 80% of his message file, because he realized that he had been subconsciously teaching a works-based relationship with God.
Grace is hard to understand and easy to compromise.
Dan: … The idea that I need to protect, build and maintain my witness in order to do the work of the Gospel. We have built a structure of works, or law and legalism to the point we are blinded by it and accept it as gospel truth. In reality, the people who are often the most successful at sharing their faith are people who are trying to get out of the mess of life where Jesus found them. I have seen addicts and down and out people who Jesus reached down and touched, and they shared their heart, and the Spirit moved. They are still in the depths of their sin and addiction, but God used them. They didn’t have to earn it ….
bapticus hereticus: Well said, Dan. That being advocated here is humility and openness to the other and openness to the other as other. To paraphrase Alfred Adler, the counselor is one messed-up person helping another, even if on a particular issue he/she has made only a bit more progress. Out of this humility, as Christians would assert, the power of the Lord may be manifested. The practical implications of the perspective advocated in your words will emphasize shared humanity (as opposed to distinctiveness which often ignores such), which when embraced makes difference a bit less threatening.
“Out of this humility, as Christians would assert, the power of the Lord may be manifested.”
“Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of Me, because I am meek, and humble of heart”
(from THE GOSPEL
of St. Matthew 11:29)
Norm, if I understand you right, you are wrong. Dan is not advocating “humility and openness to the other and openness to the other as other” if you are advocating accepting false religion and false gospels, or sinful lifestyles as equally valid to the biblical gospel or biblical morality.
We (those who believe the true gospel) are distinctive, not in our old, human nature, but in our newly created divine nature – clothed in the righteousness of Christ, having found the ONE AND ONLY hope of forgiveness by grace through faith, having been made new creations in Christ and indwelled by the Spirit of God.
Jesus is different – exceptional – the ONLY savior in this sin-sick world.
The church is different – exceptional – the ONLY body of Christ to bring the love and grace of Christ to this sin-sick world.
The born-again, redeemed believer is different – exceptional – because of the work of Christ in us.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your point, but based on what I know of you, I think I am reading you right.
What you are saying is not what Dan is saying.
Perhaps a part of that special Christian difference is that we become no longer able to see the ‘differences’ in others so much ?
“”All through the short afternoon they kept coming, the people who counted themselves Father’s friends.
Young and old, poor and rich, scholarly gentlemen and illiterate servant girls —
only to Father did it seem that they were all alike.
That was Father’s secret: not that he overlooked the differences in people; that he didn’t know they were there.”
— Corrie ten Boom (The Hiding Place)
Christiane, I met Corrie when I was 9. Formidable lady! And I also know for a fact that her father never shirked from telling one and all who came through that Messiah had come. I know because she told this in her talks. Everything they did, they did in the name of Jesus Christ. You are once again reading something into it that is not there. She is not speaking of “spiritual differences” but of fleshly differences.
I’ve read ‘The Hiding Place’, Lydia.
And much about Corrie ten Boom and her father and mother and her sister.
I can make my own judgment of her family.
They WERE Christian people, Lydia. Not shallow.
Never that.
Dave: Norm, if I understand you right, you are wrong. Dan is not advocating “humility and openness to the other and openness to the other as other” if you are advocating accepting false religion and false gospels, or sinful lifestyles as equally valid to the biblical gospel or biblical morality.
Norm (AKA bapticus hereticus): Two things: 1) I did not say anything about religion or advocate for accepting a religion for oneself that one perceives to be less than what one already embraces, and 2) I am not a relativist or given to religious syncretism.
Dave: We (those who believe the true gospel) are distinctive, not in our old, human nature, but in our newly created divine nature – clothed in the righteousness of Christ, having found the ONE AND ONLY hope of forgiveness by grace through faith, having been made new creations in Christ and indwelled by the Spirit of God.
Norm: Distinctiveness is not denied, only that it is not viewed as the only manner in which individuals are to be perceived and how relationships are to be based. A Muslim that asserts to the Christian, “We (those who believe the true religion)” is met by the Christian that asserts to the Muslim, “We (those who believe the true religion)” and a relationship is unlikely to develop, given it does not even acknowledge the other’s desire to be a faithful individual. What a shame and what a missed opportunity for both to learn from the other and sow seeds of peace. Because “We (those who believe the true religion)” have it and you don’t, then, discord, right now and later, too.”
Dave: Jesus is different – exceptional – the ONLY savior in this sin-sick world. The church is different – exceptional – the ONLY body of Christ to bring the love and grace of Christ to this sin-sick world. The born-again, redeemed believer is different – exceptional – because of the work of Christ in us.
Norm: Yet, the Christian wishes the Muslim to respect that difference, but the Christian, apparently, will not respect said difference embraced by the Muslim. And as such, a relationship based on respect for the other cannot be a foundation for subsequent dialogue.
Dave: Maybe I am misunderstanding your point, but based on what I know of you, I think I am reading you right. What you are saying is not what Dan is saying.
Norm: Yes, that is possible, concerning Dan, but I see fewer walls here in his words than I have seen in others on this forum.
“”At the sermon of Pentecost, Peter didn’t give an alter call. “”
This is a broad and bold statement for someone who was not there. If you read the sermon even casually you will see that the entire sermon is a “call” (we can quibble over whether there was an altar) to commitment. Verse 40 especially indicates a strong “urging” on the part of Peter. It appears that “grace alone” does not mean without persuasion.
One might quibble, as I said, over the mechanics of how Peter “urged” a response at the end of the message, but certainly there is nothing in the sermon that would justify–in my humble view–a broad statement as to what Peter did not do.
Also, the brush in regard to “tatoos” seems much to broad to me. The writer assumes that all preachers preach against “tatoos and the tatoo culture” because of a legalistic proof-texting of from Leviticus. This is simply not the case in all cases. There are other reasons to admonish persons from the idea of tattooing from other Scriptures dealing with worldiness and modesty issues — not to mention health issues (you can die from getting a tattoo).
Now, one may still disagree with another’s view on tatooing, but it is not fair to say the only reason someone is against such a practice is misapplying God’s Word in a legalistic manner.
While I agree with the basic premise of the post–we can always use a little more reflection and repentence–I don’t agree with all the details painting the SBC with such a broad brush. I do not see legalism as “rampant” in our churches — at least not the limited number that I am familiar with.
That’s what I see holding the SBC back.
I don’t think that is what will hold the Great Commission Resurgence back. I think that will happen because a much simpler problem in our churches: we simply don’t share the gospel with enough lost people to see much fruit. You would think that if pastors were really serious (and I include myself in this sorry detail) about the Great Commission, at least 52 people a year would get saved because the pastor himself is winning lost people on a weekly basis.
“I can make my own judgment of her family.
They WERE Christian people, Lydia. Not shallow.
Never that.”
Thanks for ignoring my point. You quoted that passage to bolster your “all gods are the same” and lead to eternal life schitck. Corrie would not be pleased with that, Christiane. :o) It goes against what her whole life was dedicated to: Jesus Christ.
She was not speaking of spiritual differences but fleshly differences. Big difference.
Context?
Once again, you miss the point. And her father believed in the “fundamentals” of the Faith. Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to eternal life.
from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, concerning the ten Boom Family’s witness:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10006914
“The ten Boom family were members of the Dutch Reformed Church, which protested Nazi persecution of Jews as an injustice to fellow human beings and an affront to divine authority. In her autobiography, ten Boom repeatedly cited religious motivations for hiding Jews, particularly her family’s strong belief in a basic tenet of their religion: the equality of all human beings before God. Their religious activities had also brought the family a history of personal connections to the Jewish community. Corrie’s grandfather had supported efforts to improve Christian-Jewish relations in the nineteenth century. Her brother Willem, a Dutch Reformed minister assigned to convert Jews, studied antisemitism and ran a nursing home for elderly of all faiths. In the late 1930s that nursing home became a refuge for Jews fleeing from Germany. “
It doesn’t matter how good a person it is. It doesn’t matter how sincere and “nice” people are. John 14:6 Jesus sayeth unto him, I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE; no man cometh unto the FATHER but by me. If you DENY the SON you DENY the FATHER. Anyone who is not a universalist affirms this. No one who denies the SON is worshipping the FATHER. You can be sincere and nice and do all kinds of nice things, but salvation is never about works – salvation is by FAITH alone in CHRIST ALONE. ORTHODOX Christianity L’s. ONLY universalist would disagree with what I’m writing.
‘IN THIS HOUSEHOLD, GOD’S PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS WELCOME’
Casper ten Boom
so began the story of ‘The Hiding Place’ . . . a story which has brought many people to faith in Christ the Lord
“”God’s People Are Always Welcome”
“In May of 1942, a well – dressed woman came to the ten Boom door with a suitcase in hand. Nervously, she told ten Boom that she was a Jew and that her husband had been arrested several months before, and her son had gone into hiding. Occupation authorities had recently visited her, and she was too fearful to return home. After hearing about how they had helped the Weils, she asked if she might stay with them, and ten Boom’s father readily agreed. A devoted reader of the Old Testament, Casper ten Boom believed Jews were indeed “the chosen,” and told the woman, “In this household, God’s people are always welcome.” ”
Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/corrie-ten-boom#ixzz19X5fbq9o
Perhaps, Father ten Boom is someone Bess would consider a ‘universalist’?
Whatever ‘labels’ the ones who follow the ‘biblical gospel’ pin on one another and on those who disagree with them,
I cannot think that they would deny the label of ‘Christian’ to a man like Casper ten Boom.
Not even they, who practice the strictest doctrine of ‘exclusion’ , could do such a thing honorably, in my opinion.
Only God knows Casper ten Boom’s heart, but if he DENIED that the ONLY WAY to GOD the FATHER was through CHRIST the SON. Then yes I would say he was following a false god. Sorry the GOSPEL is OFFENSIVE and it is EXCLUSIVE. FAITH ALONE in CHRIST ALONE. It’s not me who made up the rules. These are GOD’s standards.
“I cannot think that they would deny the label of ‘Christian’ to a man like Casper ten Boom. ”
Who is doing that? Who is “they”? Where has anyone said that about Father ten Boom on this thread?
YOU are the one who is implying that Father ten Boom hid Jews and never once mentioned Christ to them.
No, LYDIA, you are implying that I’m implying that.
From what I have read, Father ten Boom (or ‘Grandfather’ as the neighborhood called him affectionately) was respectful of all people.
Imply what you want to imply. You can’t change his solid reputation as a ‘righteous person’. He is, for the people of my faith, a beloved Christian.
I forget how many ‘beloved Christians’ are maligned these days by ‘some’: Jimmy Carter, Billy Graham . . .
and that those who practice ‘exclusion’ feel that they are not ‘real Christians’. I forget how many are ‘labeled’ and you help me to remember that, Lydia, and certainly Bess also. (sigh)
If being a Christian means UNASHAMEDLY following Christ’s Commandments to love others, as He has loved us,
you had better believe that the Jews KNEW Father ten Boom
WAS a Christian man.
The only way to proclaim the FATHER is to PROCLAIM the SON. No one who DENIES the SON can possibly KNOW the FATHER. SALVATION is not by WORKS, but by FAITH.
“YOU are the one who is implying that Father ten Boom hid Jews and never once mentioned Christ to them.”
I think Father ten Boom mentioned Our Lord to them with every fiber of his being. And he was ‘not ashamed’ to do it.
You are heavily into judging what you think ‘I imply’.
No where is there evidence that Father ten Boom did not show forth Jesus Christ to the Jewish people in his love and in his respect for them. He and his family hated anti-Semitism.
That, I know, and can say with certainty. And in doing that, he also proclaimed Our Lord to the Jews and to the world.
And again with the condescension and insults L’s – ooh was that a hint that those who think thae Jews who deny Christ are not worshipping the ONLY REAL GOD – was that an accusation of anti-semitism you’re throwing out there?
Doesn’t matter what the ten Boom’s thought or did. There is only one way according to the WHOLE counsel of SCRIPTURE to the FATHER and that is ONLY THROUGH CHRIST the SON. Now for me personally I don’t think God is done with Israel – people like your buddies in ENID disagree with me and they would believe (I think) that the CHURCH is now ISRAEL. But if your buddies from ENID are not Universalists than they would affirm that anyone who DENIES the SON is denying the FATHER. THE ONLY WAY to the FATHER is through the SON. And what I’m saying is absolutely ORTHODOX Christianity believed by mainline evangelicals – not the liberal all roads are valid people.
” But if your buddies from ENID are not Universalists than they would affirm that anyone who DENIES the SON is denying the FATHER. ”
I think Wade affirms that. I just wish he would tell Christiane that Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal life! She might listen to him.
They claim to not be universalist and yet they won’t make this basic statement which I guess is just too “mean” or would be considered “bashing her with the Bible” If you don’t correct her when she is so blatently pushing a false gospel I can’t imagine where they would ever correct her.
I don’t know how to reply to this, so I won’t. Thanks for your view, I think you are creating an argument that has no bottom. Modesty issues are cultural, health issue? Come on, you can die from drinking too much water, called water poisoning. Too many false bottoms in your argument to really make anything substantial, but I do thank you for giving me some things to ponder.
I meant to type: “That’s NOT
Wow! Maybe I can get it right his time:
I meant to write: “That’s NOT what I see holding the SBC back.”
Great post. Most of the things that you brought up have been problems for a long time, not just in the SBC, but in many evangelical churches. We preach the grace of God and immediately add back in the Law. My favorite is “prrof texting” which I am convinced comes directly from a steady diet of topical preaching rather than preaching the whole word of God by preaching through complete books of the Bible. It is much easier to pick a topic then look for verses to support your view. By the way, I’m now giving up wearing cotton clothes!
If I were king, making clothes from anything but cotton would be illegal.
Dear Pastor,
I agree with you that the lack of appreciation of the sovereignty of God (small s, not big S) is a real problem among Southern Baptists. I also believe that although nothing is wrong with the words in the sinners prayer, which in and of themselves have become an institution for not only Southern Baptists but evangelicals in general, repeating those words has been so blindly applied that many have been led to equate the prayer with salvation itself. As a result I would agree that the common Southern Baptist approach to leading someone to Christ has become so dangerously casual, that the compilation of numbers has become as important as people one at a time.
However, you lost me when you added the statement that you would not say whether or not you were a Calvinist. You introduced the idea which led me to believe you were aware that a reader might be suspicious that you might be a Calvinist. I was not until that point. However I read all the rest of your words with the suspicion that you raised, that your intent was to defend and advance a point of view of salvation I respect and much so, but at the same time cannot dismiss as being one of the sources of great controversies in and of itself.
It is unfortunately sad that while we debate opposing points of view on theology as Southern Baptists, that the question of the Sovereignty of God, (big S not little s) has become one of who is more right about how strongly they consider its import. I believe that Calvinists have it a lot more right in level of import than those who are not Calvinists, which I will admit I am not according to the ridiculous taxonomy we must apply.
But my friend the real difficulty in the Southern Baptist Convention with the Sovereignty of God is that we are failing to understand the nature of the sinners who might be in our churches or influence. Perhaps you might agree if you can step away for a moment from focusing on works, that salvation is a process that requires the realization of sin, the shame of it, the confession of it, and accepting the forgiveness through Christ, a process if you may. Maybe you think that description requires the concept of works? If so how else would you describe leading someone to Christ that does not anticipate some result or response from the effort on the part of one being led. At this point we begin to split hairs so minutely that we become worse than the pharisees.
The greatest difficulty with the Sovereignty of God is societal. The sinner who may be in our midst has been taught and inundated for years in school and in the media that the Christian view of Creation is a myth made up by backwards humans. As such the Genesis account, in its entirety not in debating any specific point, has been dismissed. Our timidity about being labeled creationists and the unfortunate interpretation that such a label is somehow backwards, has led to tacit approval that the act of creation and what you believe about it is somehow not important so long as you come to trust Christ.
Baloney, baloney, baloney.
How can someone come to accept forgiveness from Christ when they refuse to acknowledge that the laws they broke. that caused them to need forgiveness in the first place were the laws of the
Sovereign God who created the world and still is in control. I am awed by this God. It is that awe every human must come to fully respect to realize their depravity. To say that it’s ok if you don’t accept God as creator, whether by an act of comission or omission on the part of the church, is a barrier of enormous consequence in that process.
Of all the issues facing the church it is this problem, the minimization of God in his role as creator that causes us the greatest difficulty in leading people to Christ. It is this aspect of the Sovereignty of God, that He did create, He did make the laws all for our benefit and not His, and He will indeed punish those who violate his laws as He promised, that is ultimately important for a human to understand what salvation is and why he needs it–God is Sovereign absolutely and forever. The need of man for recognizing this and finding reconciliation certainly predates Christ, certainly predates the birth of Calvin, certainly predates the creation of the Southern Baptist Convention, and will be so long after the Southern Baptist Convention is a footnote in history.
Jerry Grace
“We have put too much of God’s work on our shoulders”
This comment jumps out at me. So many people put conditions on sharing the Gospel. “You have to develop a relationship and then it has to be the right time in the relationship and then you have to present the Gospel in a respectful way or YOU wont’ get any results.”
There is NEVER a WRONG Time or WRONG PLACE to present the GOSPEL. NEVER EVER EVER EVER! Can people bungle it. Absolutely! BUT GOD is GOD and can take our misteps and reach HEARTS. NOBODY who denys the GOSPEL is denying it because of the way it’s presented. IT’s up to GOD to reach HEARTS. NEVER men. When someone REJECTS the GOSPEL they are not REJECTING a man but REJECTING GOD.
The GOSPEL is absolutely NEVER about the person presenting it. GOD is not DEPENDENT on HOW, WHEN, or WHERE the GOSPEL is presented. RESULTS are NEVER about the PERSON presenting it. RESULTS are ALL about GOD. To say that someone is not going to get RESULTS from a presentation of the GOSPEL is to DENY that the POWER of the GOSPEL comes from the POWER of GOD.
And there is only ONE TRUE GOSPEL. And anyone who believes that you can DENY the SON and still believe you can KNOW the ONE TRUE GOD is pushing a FALSE GOSPEL that CHRISTIANS should always defend against. DEFENDING the GOSPEL is offensive against those who choose to DENY it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNfL6IVWCE
Do you have a point L’s or is this you throwing one of your veiled insults?
What’s the point of showing this video? It’s what debate judges call, “poisoning the well” for which you lose points.
This would be equivalent to suggesting that all Catholics believe torture is acceptable as an evangelistic tool based upon a “YouTube” video (had there been YouTube) of the Inquisition.
I’ve been an evangelical minister for 33 years and have never met more than a handful of people who would be representative of those in the video.
It’s actually a good documentary. Christiane just provided a link to the trailer for the movie without providing any commentary. Without commentary you’re just guessing at motives. Incidentally, if anyone wants to watch the whole documentary, it is available here. http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/jesus-camp/
Thanks for the link, BYRON
Yes L’s we get it Ted Haggard in the documentary by Alexandra Pelosi daughter to Nancy soon to be ex Speaker of the House.
You still don’t answer the question – Your point would be?
I was wrong Pelosi did Friends of God and another Ted Haggard documentary – the other left wing favorites.
“”There is NEVER a WRONG Time or WRONG PLACE to present the GOSPEL. NEVER EVER EVER EVER! “”
I have to say, Bess, you fight like a girl 🙂
Very succinct and enlightening post. Shows a great passion for seeing souls brought to a saving knowledge of Christ.
I fear that most preachers who post on the “right way to do evangelism” seldom do much. Your post encourages me to keep giving out the good news and trusting God to keep bringing people to a saving knowledge of Him.
Sure, we should always do our best not to “muck up the process,” but thank God the power is in the gospel, not the preacher.
F & L, I am fed up with idiots who think that the Gospel is about how THEY present it. Somehow God has given them some secret to doing it right. Or to be more precise they want to sit back and attack those defending it because they don’t have the courage or conviction to defend it themselves so they wrap themselves up with the ridiculous idea “well that’s not the right way to do it, you’ll never get results doing it that way” The Power of the Gospel is NEVER about the person presenting it. If there are any RESULTS from the GOSPEL it has nothing to do with the presenter, but the AUTHOR ALONE. No one who REJECTS the GOSPEL and is in HELL right at this moment is there because someone presented it WRONG. People go to HELL because they REJECT the ONE TRUE GOSPEL and the ONE TRUE GOD which is not the same god that the Muslims, Mormons, and Jews worship.
BESS, it is not biblical to say that the one true God is not the same God that the Jews worship. I think your theology is not in accord with sacred Scripture, on this point for sure.
What religion are you?
Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.”
Romans 3:29-30
29 “Does God belong to Jews alone?
Does he not belong to Gentiles, too? Yes, also to Gentiles,
30 for God is one
and will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith
and the uncircumcised through faith.”
Without the acknowledgment of the ‘Shema’ prayer in Deuteronomy 6:4,
St. Paul’s teaching in 1 Cor 8:6 would no longer make any sense.
6 ” yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and through whom we exist.”
Here, St. Paul re-phrases the ancient ‘Shema’ prayer of Israel
“Hear O Israel, the Lord Our God, the Lord is One”;
and we see the revelation of a new Christology,
which celebrates by Whom we are created
and to Whom we shall return.
Christiane, I think I understand Bess here, as I used to hold to this position. Basically, it’s that if you do not hold to a certain minimal standard of beliefs (the basic truths that true believers in the one true God must hold to in order to be accepted by the divine), then you are not a true worshiper of the true God. You are at that point only worshiping a pretend deity that fits your preconceived notions of such a deity, no matter how many similarities it shares with the real true God. In other words, it’s a form of Christian exclusivism, probably taken to its logical end. It can be seen as an offensive doctrine, even though I think those that hold it do not necessarily mean any offense to others, any more than they would by asserting that 2 + 2 = 4 to the exclusion of all other falsely asserted “truths” involving 2 + 2. In the end, you have to acknowledge that unless your understanding of God is perfect (and no one’s is), then your worship will be imperfect as well.
“The public gets ‘mixed messages’ from evangelicals on the ‘biblical gospel’. Is it because evangelicals themselves disagree ?”
Of course they do. They are called “denominations”.
Hi BYRON,
Thanks for helping. I just tried to post some Scriptures pertaining to Deuteronomy 6:4 (the ‘schema’ prayer) and the coordinating further revealed understanding of ‘Who God Is’
given in St. Paul’s letter to the Corrinthians.
I’m trying to stay ‘in the Word’, with my explanation to ‘Bess’,
with some hope that it will help, if not now, some time in the future, given time to ‘ponder’ those Scriptures. (?)
Who knows? It might help. Hope is a good thing, Byron.
We are also ‘saved by hope’, did you know?
That comes from the Scriptures, too:
“”SPE SALVI facti sumus”— “in hope we were saved”
( from Rom 8:24.)
I also hope you had a good Christmas. And that all is well with you.
L’s you are absolutely wrong. It is orthodox Christianity to state that anyone who denies the Son is also denying the FATHER. There is only one way to the ONE TRUE GOD and if Jews and Muslims deny the SON then they Deny the ONE TRUE GOD. You are pushing a false gospel. I don’t know how many people have to tell you that you are worshipping a false god for you to get it. But there is nothing wacko or crazy about saying that the JEWS who deny the SON cannot possibly be worshipping the ONE TRUE GOD.
I agree with everything Dan has said here. I was reading this post amening everything. I think he has said it very well. I still believe strongly that giving a message and calling it the Gospel that is full of hot words, using the message as a battering ram is sin. It produces contempt and tells the person the opposite of who Christ really is.
Love is supernaturally given to us by God too, as are the results. And ramming hot words with a few Bible verses down somebody’s throat and calling it the Gospel does nothing. If it does anything it is only because God did the work. I have never said that strangers should never receive the Gospel. My biggest complaint is that many times it is given in hate and anger and the message becomes distorted. Relationships bring trust from an individual, not drive by Gospel shootings never to see them again or done from revenge, hate, or even superiority.
And of course as usual only Debbie is entitled to supernatually judge hearts and minds and she gets to declare what is hateful and being done in anger. Because Debbie doesn’t like someone that must mean that they are hateful and angry. Project much?
Yes, I am entitled according to scripture. The superiority card is thrown around more times than I can count, so I’ll not deny it. I just know something is wrong and not afraid to say it. If that offends, it offends. Just like you don’t mind hitting L’s over the head with the Bible, I guess I don’t mind mentioning that the lack of love and throwing insults around using the words “truth” and “gospel” to justify doing this are wrong.
Yeesh. C’mon Bess, SOME Christians ARE guilty of this. All Debbie is saying is that they SHOULDN’T be. As a liberal, I would disagree with her theology, but not her attitude.
“” All Debbie is saying is that they SHOULDN’T be””
That is “all Debbie said.”
“”is that many times it is given in hate and anger””
I wonder if this person could paint with any broader a brush?
Once again, her experience just doesn’t match what I’ve seen in 32 years in several countries.
“Once again, her experience just doesn’t match what I’ve seen in 32 years in several countries.”
Mine either. I think she confuses debating on a blog with believers with sharing the Gospel with unbelievers. Big difference.
” Basically, it’s that if you do not hold to a certain minimal standard of beliefs (the basic truths that true believers in the one true God must hold to in order to be accepted by the divine), then you are not a true worshiper of the true God. You are at that point only worshiping a pretend deity that fits your preconceived notions of such a deity, no matter how many similarities it shares with the real true God. In other words, it’s a form of Christian exclusivism, ”
Perhaps we do not want to “offend” Jesus Christ.
32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matt 10
Bess,
Your comments here are just lovely even if you are shoutin’ a bit. LOL. Sometimes people need to be shouted at. yes?
We present the gospel and allow the Holy Spirit to do the work. Is it possible that the Holy Spirit starts to work in us before we hear the gospel?
I love the story in Luke 7 about the ‘sinful’ (euphemism for prostitute) woman who came to see Jesus when he was in the home of a Pharisee. She surely knew she has taking a huge risk. She could have been stoned to death. Yet she fell at the feet of Jesus and poured the expensive essence upon his feet, while she wept in deep need of being made clean. She wiped her tears with her hair. Then we see the pious self-righteous interference about wasting the precious oil which could have been sold to feed the hungry. Jesus rebuked them and pointed to her love for Him, something the self-righteous had not done. Jesus doesn’t need outward acts, he wants our complete devotion and surrender to Him. His reply “Your faith has saved you, go in peace”. What was it that caused this woman to seek out Jesus? We don’t know, but we do know that some kind of work was being done in her which propelled her even towards possible death to kiss the feet of Jesus.
You have said this so well. I really enjoyed it.
God Bless
Katie, thank you. When people keep saying the same wrong thing over an over – what is there left to do but SHOUT! JESUS IS ALIVE FOREVER AND EVER and THERE IS NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED! And I will continue to SHOUT where people continue to try to push a false gospel and especially when they try to insinuate that the TRUE GOSPEL is hateful.
God bless you Chief Katie! 🙂
You go girl. Absolutely.
It’s not PC to be excusive about Jesus. All the more reason to stand firm. There is one Triune God and there are no substitutes. Great job Bess. 🙂 🙂
Katie, LOL, My husband and I are just laughing tonight at someone claiming “I respect all religions” – coming to a blog titled SBC Voices and then insulting the SBC for it’s “disrespecful” attitude of exclusivity and insinuating that we may even be anti-Semitic. How on earth is that respectful? It’d be like me going to a Catholic blog and saying something like “you know the Pope is really the anti-christ, but I respect you and all.” There is a point though where I think we have go from dealing with some poor lost soul and we have to recognize what we are really dealing with is a wolf.
No, no one needs or deserves to be shouted at. It’s another form of abuse, and no human being deserves abuse even in the name of Jesus. Christ called some vipers, we are not Christ. He can’t sin, we can.
And there is no confusion. All anyone has to do is read here. And where is a blog any different? It shouldn’t be. Or is that the danger of blogs? That it brings this out in some people. Sin is sin. And my point is certainly proven over here, but no, no confusion. I stand by what I said. You can say it’s not been your experience, but these comments show that simply isn’t true by the way L’s is being treated.
L’s with all due respect, the Jew for example does not believe in the God of the Bible, and at this present time we cannot say they are Christians or Children of God. They have rejected the Messiah, who is Jesus Christ. Rejection of Christ makes them unbelievers headed for hell. The Muslim does not worship the God of the Bible. They worship a person they call God or Allah, but he is not the God of the Bible. They too reject Christ as nothing more than a prophet, but they will tell you he is not the Son of God. That is rejecting Christ and they will go to hell when they die unless they have acknowledged Christ as Lord and Savior.
Corrie Ten Boom, from all the books I have read and listened to her on TV when she was alive, they did give the Gospel, even while hiding the Jews. It was miraculous how she could forgive the German people who held her and her family captive in the camps. But she gave the Gospel wherever she could. As did her father. God used her mightily.
I disagree with L’s. But she is not a wolf. Good grief. She is someone who needs to be gently taught the truth on certain things. She is someone we need to disciple. Correct, not treat as if she were a wolf. She is not teaching in our churches for crying out loud, she is discussing on a blog. And she is being honest about what she believes. You guys are standing around jumping on her like a jackal in the bushes. It’s ridiculous and not going to show anyone who Christ is, no matter how many passages of scripture you twist to prove you are justified. You are not justified.
I would rather you didn’t talk to her at all, then yell and spit venom, with ugly accusations. Talk to her of Christ, but even more talk to her about Christ while showing her Christ.
Paul was so burdened for the lost that he wanted to trade places with them in order for them to have salvation. (Ephesians or Galatians I think). Christ wept over Jerusalem. Until we get to that point, I almost think it’s better not to share the Gospel, than to spit it out with vileness and disdain. It does show where one’s heart is. What comes out of the mouth shows our heart. And sometimes blogs like this bring out the worst in a heart that may not normally be there except for the safety and anonymity of blog comments.
Kind of like SBC doing things behind closed doors with no accountability.
I love you, DEBBIE.
You are the real thing, friend.
You expose your heart Debbie when you stand up for a woman who claims that the Jews who deny the Son are worshipping the same God the FATHER of the ONLY LORD and SAVIOR. You should be offended by someone DENYING CHRIST but in your hatred and pride you stand up for the wolf who is now trying to claim that anyone who denys the SON is DENYING the FATHER is some ancient heresy. You show your heart. ARE YOU NOW DENYING THE SON DEBBIE. IS IT HERESY TO state anyone including JEWS who DENY the SON are DENYING THE ONE TRUE GOD. PUT UP OR SHUT UP DEBBIE. What’s more important to you winning points on a blog or DENYING THE SAVIOR you claim to serve? L”s claims you believe HERESY if you say that to DENY the SON is to DENY the FATHER – put up or SHUT UP Debbie – you’re either with CHRIST or you’re not – this isn’t about petty insults and your hurt feelings – TELL US PLAINLY AND CLEARLY do you agree that to DENY CHRIST is to DENY THE FATHER?
Bess, Debbie, Christiane,
Don’t you folks ever get tired of this? I got tired of it long ago.
So sorry Dave Miller that you think taking a stand for the GOSPEL is some kind of game. The more L’s is corrected the more insulting she becomes – Now the GOSPEL is an ancient heresy, before it was “fundamentalist” and then it’s disrespectful. Simple statements such as anyone who denys the Son Denys the Father is heresy and worthy of insults and attacks by L’s. Yes David, I get tired of so-called Christians defending a woman who shows no evidence that she wants to learn, but only belittle and insult the GOSPEL.
We love you, DAVID.
Thanks for the patient reminder to correct our foolish ways.
Bess, I appreciate your stand for the gospel.
I am not referencing that. It is the attitude that the three of you display – the petty back and forth and spiritual one-upsmanship that I find unseemly.
I plead guilty. Am sorry. Can do better. Will do better.
Dave, I admit that I participate the one-upmanship. That’s not what’s going on here today. Today L’s has gone from blatently rejecting the GOSPEL to ATTACKING the GOSPEL. I think there’s a line crossed when a person goes from saying “well I don’t believe that” to what L’s is now doing and she is now actively and openly calling the TRUTH a lie, she is now calling the GOSPEL – heresy. At what point is ENOUGH ENOUGH with a woman who is not just pushing a FALSE gospel but is calling the TRUTH a lie?
Do you see those comments now? I have been deleting comments that undermine the gospel.
Thank You David. Good night! (Did you delete the comment where she claims to respect all religions yet here she is on an SBC site claiming to respect our right to be disrespectful – cuz that’s a hoot, that an the insinuation that we’re all somehow anti-Semitic.) Go ahead and delete this one too. 🙂
And yeah Dave I see one you missed where she says it’s unBiblical to state that Jews denying Christ are not worshipping the ONE TRUE GOD.
Dave:What’s ridiculous is that instead of talking to L’s it resorts to a sword fight. If you believe she is wrong in what she says, now is the chance to witness. To beat her up and delete her comments is what is ridiculous. Why not engage her. Show her through scripture where she is wrong? She’s not going to get it over night. Do you really think someone is going to be tainted by her remarks? Then they need discipleship too. It’s a good chance to witness to her without all the garbage I read here. That is what is tiring. If you can’t take what she writes, then you have not been around the world too much.
Every human being deserves respect. L’s does not get that here. Beating her with the Bible is not the answer. When are you all going to get that. If this is how you witness, don’t. And this is what is holding the SBC back. In fact it’s destroying it.
The GOSPEL deserves RESPECT and if you don’t STAND UP for the GOSPEL then you stand for NOTHING. It is not beating anybody over the head with a Bible when they are pushing a false doctrine and calling the TRUTH a LIE.
Hi DEBBIE,
It is a beautiful testimony to the power of Our Lord that Corrie was able to forgive her tormentors. She witnessed also the suffering of her dear sister, Betsie, who died in the camp.
There is something Corrie wrote that has stayed with me for many years, and I think of it often, because I need the wisdom and the teaching from it:
When Corrie’s jailer and tormentor came to her to beg her forgiveness. She wrote in her book ‘The Hiding Place’, this:
“”Even as the angry vengeful thoughts boiled through me, I saw the sin of them. Jesus Christ had died for this man; was I going to ask for more?
Lord Jesus, I prayed, forgive me and help me to forgive him….Jesus, I cannot forgive him.
Give me your forgiveness….And so I discovered that it is not on our forgiveness any more than on our goodness that the world’s healing hinges, but on His.
When He tells us to love our enemies,
He gives along with the command, the love itself.”
— Corrie ten Boom (The Hiding Place)
Some quotes are ‘keepers’.
Bess: You bet I am defending L’s and I am exposing my heart. I am fond of L’s. So you bet I am exposing my heart. I do not apologize for that.
Amen L’s. And for the record I love you too. 🙂
Yeah Debs, we get it. You don’t want to stand for the GOSPEL because that would be mean. And you also believe that you have been given supernatural powers to judge hearts, minds and motives (she admits this up thread folks or she just shows as usual she has no reading comprehension skills or isn’t actually reading what’s written). Happy Kwanzaa Debster. Oh here’s the smiley to make it all better 🙂
Yeah Dave delete this before someone comes whining to you.
Good words. While I am in favor of it, we don’t need a “Great Commission Resurgence” as much as we need a “Gospel Resurgence” back of that.
“Show her through scripture where she is wrong?”
Dave has done that, I have done that and many others who have showed great patience. You might disagree with that and that is ok. I am not sure we could ever do it to your satisfaction but Christiane is a professing believer who should seek truth about something so very important about WHO Jesus is and being the only way to salvation… that is even crucial to her eternal life.
To tell you the truth, Debbie, I think Christiane has more spiritual influence over you than you do over her. I think your emotional stance actually helps her stay in error. I think she counts on it. My opinion only.
Well IMO this is more about who Debbie hates on these blogs and not wanting to agree with them. She’s more interested in being right against her enemies then taking a stand for the GOSPEL. She’s showing her heart and it ain’t pretty.
No, thanks to the comments you keep writing Bess, my heart towards you isn’t very pretty right now. You are absolutely right.
Lydia: And you just expect her to see it overnight? How many weeks, days, months? It is not a magic cure that is overnight. Sometimes it takes years. Want to invest years in someone? It’s God’s time not ours and treating her as you and Bess, others have treated her is not going to win her. Drawing a sword, calling her names, etc. is not the answer. Good grief. Have none of you been around other religions? Lydia, you say you were a MK, did any changes in thinking come overnight? Did conversions happen in just a few weeks, months? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. What do you think the Great Commission is? The Bible seems as if things happened in a few hours, days, but many times it was years before a person changed. Dave tried what? Once, twice, three times, four times? And so what is your point? As for your last crack Lydia, I’ll not even comment that is so low. I am strong in what I believe, not that I have to answer to you. If you want to tick me off, you just did it. This is what is wrong, the stupid false accusations to shut someone up, not L’s comments. You should know better. And this is the acid tongue that I am against. But it’s like talking to a wall. Kind of like you think L’s in being.
I think it would be best if this conversation ended, you folks took a break and came back with a fresh perspective later.
I’m not sure how God is honored in these angry words.
(Comment not directed at any one person – general request.)
” Lydia, you say you were a MK, did any changes in thinking come overnight? ”
Huh? Not sure where you got that…. There are a ton of missionaries in my family and extended family but my parents were not.
But I am really not sure where you are coming from…Christiane is not a new professing believer. She promotes a non truth about our Savior and as her friend, I was seriously glad to see you tell her some truth…finally…on this thread. You seem to only be afraid of offending people. I do not want to offend Christ. And yes, I love God more than I love people. As hateful as that probably sounds to you. I think it is offensive to Christ to shrink back from saying he is the only way to eternal life when a professing believer says the opposite.
As I said earlier, Jesus Christ was the most loving and compassionate person to ever be on earth. He healed, loved, performed miracles and was crucified. Why? Because he claimed to be Messiah. The only way to salvation. And that is offensive to people. Some of the same people who witnessed His great love, miracles and compassion were later yelling: Crucify Him. That is how offensive the truth is and why satan uses such subtle tactics to paint anyone who claims this truth as hateful and mean for believing Jesus is exclusive as the way to eternal life. How mean that sounds. Satan truly is an angel of light and it is so easy to be deceived.
I agree with Bess it would be like going on a Catholic blog and declaring them all as being haters, etc. I could compare them all to Mel Gibson’ who speaks against Jews, etc. But that would not be right nor fair because they are all not like that.
But I do thank you for dealing with some of the error promoted on this thread about our Savior.
Rev. Barnes: I couldn’t agree more.
As to whether Peter gave an altAr call at Pentecost, the people had to ASK how they could be saved. That pretty well seals it for me.
And what was Peter’s response? “Repent and be baptized…”.
We reduce “repentance” to an item on a checklist to which someone has to say “yes” before we’ll lead them in the “sinner’s prayer”.
And don’t get me started on ‘He that winneth souls is wise”.
Another “Happy Hour” with F&L. As much personality as a 2×4.
Sometimes in order to make ourselves look bigger we have to make someone else look smaller. However, our bigness, then, is just an illusion.
Dan,
Thanks. I agree with much of what you write but in the end find myself scratching my head. Allow me.
On the one hand much (if not most) of your concern centers on being favorable in God’s sight not for what we do or don’t do; rather, on being favorable in God’s sight because He chooses to bestow favor upon us. Grace in contrast to works. You state this in numerous ways:
Yet, when summing up your entire piece, you offer this exhortation to Southern Baptists: “In my opinion, we have sins and issues in the Convention that need to be repented from and corrected before we can really see a Great Commission Resurgence.”
The tension in your piece begs for relief. While you make it crystal clear we travel the wrong path by focusing on our behavior as if it gains God’s favor (i.e. “structure of works”) or embracing the erroneous idea we “damage our witness” by “mess[ing] up” when the truth is, Christians often “most successful at sharing their faith” are the ones still “in sin and addiction” and plagued by “the mess of life”; nevertheless, “God used them. They didn’t have to earn it.”
However, when addressing the SBC as a whole, you appear to plead for the very thing you reject throughout your piece–namely, a call for behavior change in order to experience the blessings of God.
At least, that’s how it comes across to me. Indeed if “before we can really see a Great Commission Resurgence” we must a) repent from sins and issues in the Convention; b) correct our behavior, I’m unsure how we can view this significantly different from the “structure of works” you described earlier.
After all, based on your premises, could it not well be argued that the truth is, albeit we have “messed up” as a convention and still reside in the “depths of sin,” God nonetheless “uses us.” We don’t have to “earn it.”
Just thinking out loud.
With that, I am…
Peter
Peter, I agree that I made a seemly contradiction that we don’t have to be perfect before God can use us, so let’s fix things and be perfect before God can use us. That point, however, isn’t that we need to “do” something. The number one issue for me in this post is that we are often too prideful. We take credit for God’s work. We give honor and glory to man. In my opinion most of the talk about what WE must do is pride. God does a work in us before we can do anything. What I am advocating is to stop doing God’s work and let God do God’s work. I believe God is a gentleman, and if we decide to do His work for Him (I.E. convict the sinner instead of simply preaching the gospel) then He will let us. No one EVER gets saved because of my work, but it’s only through the work of the Holy Spirit. We need to put our pride away, get out of the way and let the Spirit move.
“Have you ever read that passage of scripture? Why is the tattoo portion still valid, but we can wear mixed fabrics? Yes, cotton blends are forbidden according to that same passage. So are goatees and eating fruit off a fruit tree before it’s produced for 4 years. ”
Why is a “tithe” of 10% taught since it was more like 23.5% in the OT and Abraham only gave Mel 10% ONCE from the spoils of war. So why is a tithe taught as Gospel truth for the New Covenant? That is also a “work”.
Short answer: because Jesus said the tithe was valid.
Jesus said the tithe was valid to a Jew living in the Jewish system and still in need of the temple. Does that apply to me, a 21st Century American? You can decide yourself.
Yes, the tithe is OT legalism, but the church building is a OT throwback also. I didn’t have time to get into it, 10% is legalism, the NT standard is found in Act 2 45
Exactly. Barnabas even sold his estate to give all the money to the needy new believers.
Also, while the Festival Tithe and Poverty Tithe are both called a tithe, they are distinguished from the Levitical Tithe and never called “The Tithe of the Lord.”
Plus, it is erroneous to suggest that the O.T. limited giving to the “Tithe.” The tithe was the starting line, not the finish line. The concept of tithing (a pre-Israelite practice) was always more about the Who and Why of giving rather than the how much. The idea of “tithing” is perfectly compatible with grace.
“Plus, it is erroneous to suggest that the O.T. limited giving to the “Tithe.” The tithe was the starting line, not the finish line. The concept of tithing (a pre-Israelite practice) was always more about the Who and Why of giving rather than the how much. The idea of “tithing” is perfectly compatible with grace.”
A tithe is a “tax”. It was required by some in the OT. In the NC we have serious joyful giving. But no where are we told to tithe to maintain a building or pay salaries of priests. Words mean things. The problem with what the NT teaches is that pastors cannot control giving to the building and paying their salaries if they teach the NT correctly. So, they teach a tithe system.
Some folks might wake up and give it to those in the Body in real need, instead of using a middle man.
You might want to read the book of Matthew and Timothy before you say that “no where are we told to tithe to maintain a building or pay salaries of priests.”
While I would agree with your statement if I accept your view that the tithe was a “tax” or that we still have O.T. priests today, I do not accept your premise that ministers of the gospel should not be supported by the offerings of God’s people, with a tithe being the starting point.
Also, your implication that N.T. believers did not use buildings for worship is completely false. They met in buildings all over the major cities. If your premise is they did not continue to support the “temple cult” long past the Lord’s resurrection, then I would agree with that.
Where in Matthew? Are you sure Jesus was not focusing on something else BEFORE the coming of the New Covenant? Like making a point about the Pharisees? I am just guessing since you have not given me the passage.
And in Timothy, we see “double honor” with the use of a wages metaphor. So, who is paid “single honor” in the Body? Being paid “honor” is giving respect that is “due”.
What do you make of Paul saying he did not take anything in Acts 20?
F & L, don’t take my comment to extreme’s, I’m not saying we shouldn’t give or tithe, and I am not condeming buildings, I am just saying we use the OT tithe because we have bills that need to be paid. I didn’t imply the ancient church didn’t use a building, but they didn’t buy property and construct a dedicated “church” building. They used the temple courts, and then they became persecuted, and Rome wasn’t going to let them build a church building.
One way to test the truth of an argument is to take it to its logical conclusions, or extremes. For example it is sometimes necessary to extend the length of two lines to determine if they are parallel or perpendicular.
You make some good points and part of my responses were responses to others reactions to your post, and not necessarily specifics of your posts.
I will certainly concede that we can never be “too full of grace” in our approach.
“Short answer: because Jesus said the tithe was valid.”
Nice try but no cigar. “the sons are free”.
“”the sons are free””
Some saints are just “cheap” 🙂
10% is CHEAP.
Precisely, so why are you arguing 🙂
I do not question his faith.
He lived it.
“I do not question his faith.
He lived it.”
Now you are just changing the subject. But what you do not want to admit is that if one lives their Faith in Jesus Christ, they will not only believe it but will confess to others that HE is the only way to eternal life. You keep trying to dance around that truth and make something else true that isn’t…and using the ten Booms to do it. I found that contemptible.
change the subject?
LYDIA, the man DIED for his faith . . . a Christian faith that led him to care more for others than for his own safety.
Father ten Boom’s memory is honored for his example of Christian love. He obeyed Our Lord’s commandments to love.
I know much about the character of the Christian faith of the Dutch Reformed people, Lydia: my son is a resident of Eastern Christian Children’s Retreat in Wyckoff NJ, which was founded and is run under the auspices of the Dutch Reformed Church in that area.
They are people of deep faith and strong Christian witness to many.
I see, in the writings of Corrie ten Boom about her father, a tribute to his Christian compassion for each person he met. That Christian love for others, lived out, is a testament to the depth of his love for Christ.
That is how I honestly see her description of him.
So we must disagree.
When people live ,as Father ten Boom lived for Christ and died for Christ, then they have not ‘damaged their witness’, Lydia.
The story of Father ten Boom’s Christian witness still points many towards Christ the Lord.
“LYDIA, the man DIED for his faith . . . a Christian faith that led him to care more for others than for his own safety.
Father ten Boom’s memory is honored for his example of Christian love. He obeyed Our Lord’s commandments to love. ”
I agree. But what does that have to do with him believing and witnessing that Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal life?
Are you trying to imply he gave his life for others but would never offend them to actually say that Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal life?
That is what I hear you trying to communicate based upon your comments and three years of reading you and knowing you believe that many roads lead to eternal life. I wish you would not use others like the ten Booms to try and promote that heresy. It is so unfair to them.
Christiane, here is a clip from Francis Chan which might help understand where I am coming from about confessing Christ to others:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fayWA5TZm0A&feature=related
To even suggest that anything thing except Jesus Christ could be a way to eternal life is…. cowardly.
“Are you trying to imply he gave his life for others but would never offend them to actually say that Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal life? ”
No, LYDIA, that is what you are implying about what ‘I am saying’. My quote in response to David’s comment was from Corrie ten Boom. Those were her words. And my comment was
“Perhaps a part of that special Christian difference is that we become no longer able to see the ‘differences’ in others
so much ? ”
We look at the Gospels and read about the way Christ was able to see the ‘person’ beneath the ‘presented facade’ and connect with that person. I think that those who begin to conform their lives ‘into’ Christ are able to see people as God intended them to be seen: with love and compassion.
I think if you read Corrie’s books and see the way she describes her father, you will see that his witness was complete: he was openly a Christian man, but he respected others who were not, particularly Jewish people (the ten Boom shop/home was in a Jewish neighborhood). And when Father ten Boom opened his home to hide them from the Nazis, he was never more eloquent in his testimony of the love of Jesus Christ in his life.
Corrie’s brother was a minister who spoke of Christ to the Jews and when the time came to protect them from the Nazis, he also did as his father, and worked to save their lives.
BESS says that she thinks the Jews worship a ‘different God’.
But Father ten Boom didn’t.
Read Corrie’s books about her father, Lydia. I think he was able to ‘look past’ those things that we all use to ‘judge’ the value of a human being: who they ‘were’, their profession, or their menial jobs, and see that they were, like himself, worthy of love and respect simply ‘as human beings created by God’.
That kind of humility in Father ten Boom was often spoken of by Corrie.
Read her books, Lydia.
L’s no one who denies JESUS CHRIST the SON is worshipping the ONE TRUE GOD. Doesn’t matter how you proof text and yank scripture out of context. There is only ONE WAY to the FATHER and that is THRU the SON. Anyone who denies the SON is worshipping a false god no matter how sincere they are. No one can KNOW GOD the FATHER without KNOWING JESUS CHRIST the SON. This is absolutely ORTHODOX Christianity.
“I think if you read Corrie’s books and see the way she describes her father, you will see that his witness was complete: he was openly a Christian man, but he respected others who were not, particularly Jewish people (the ten Boom shop/home was in a Jewish neighborhood). And when Father ten Boom opened his home to hide them from the Nazis, he was never more eloquent in his testimony of the love of Jesus Christ in his life.”
So, you are saying that by opening his home to Jews, that was his testimony of Christ being the only way to eternal life? You are implying that he never said such a thing to anyone.
You seem to want to imply that some here do not respect people who do not believe in Christ. I just do not get that. I think it is because you think it is mean to say that Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal life.
“BESS says that she thinks the Jews worship a ‘different God’.
But Father ten Boom didn’t.
Read Corrie’s books about her father, Lydia. I think he was able to ‘look past’ those things that we all use to ‘judge’ the value of a human being: who they ‘were’, their profession, or their menial jobs, and see that they were, like himself, worthy of love and respect simply ‘as human beings created by God’.”
Jesus Christ was God in the Flesh. Once He came to earth even as a Jew and was denied by some Jews as Messiah, they have denied “God”. Jesus Christ was God in the Flesh. He is God now. To deny Christ is to deny God.
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven. Matthew 10
“Read her books, Lydia.”
Read them all. Even have one signed by Corrie from when I was a kid and met her. I just think you are misrepresenting them so as to fit your premise that Jesus Christ is not the only way to eternal life.
I just discovered that the SBC does not accept the ‘dual covenant’ that other Baptists accept concerning the Jews.
Surprise (to me) !!! Wow.
Some of the ‘rhetoric’ from all sides, can be found here:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcon2.htm
including a statement from Dr. Al Mohler of the SBC.
Just when I think I’m beginning to make sense of things Baptist . . . .
(sigh)
First, I don’t see the words I’M SORRY for trying to act like you were an idiot and believing some crazy wacko Westboro Baptist thing and
#2 DUH! You mean there are really some liberal Baptists who are just universalist? Seriously! WHO KNEW!
#3 also Real Shocker that maybe you don’t yet know so take a seat L’s – Baptist and Protestants in general don’t accept the Books of the APROCRAPHA – real shocker I know, but it’s true.
JESUS is the ONLY WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE and this is NEWS? Sheeesh! Oh here’s the 🙂
Sorry, BESS, to make you happy, here is a 🙂
Enjoy.
L’s you know I really don’t think you’re as clueless as you’re letting on. It is not disrespectful of anyone to proclaim the TRUTH. Now if you think the TRUTH is disrespectful then so be it. You truly are lost. And you truly enjoy hurling you’re insults. If YOU truly respected those of us posting here you would not continue the insinuations that to proclaim the TRUTH is any, way, shape or form disrespectful. You’re implications that we are somehow anti-semitic is just disgusting. As far as “mainstream” Baptist – there are no Baptist more “mainstream” than the SBC. Sorry you have a problem with the majority of the CHRISTIANS in the world who preach CHRIST ALONE. If not even quotes from Al Mohler and Paige Patterson agreeing with each other doesn’t convice you that IN CHRIST ALONE is an absolutely ORTHODOX teaching than you really have not a clue. You CHOOSE to not learn because the exclusivity of JESUS is offenseive to those who want a “nice” god who won’t send anybody to hell. That’s not who God is. He is a God full of mercy, but to those who reject His mercy, He is a God of Judgement.
And L’s if you truly want to “learn” you might try avoiding the universalist websites that tell you only what you want to hear. Unversalism is rejected by mainstream Christianity. All paths are NOT valid.
BESS, my grandmother was a Southern Baptist. I never once heard her disparage another faith, or another race. She was a Christian woman. She pointed to Christ.
Not all Baptists follow the SBC’s current leading.
My grandmother certainly would not have done it.
Christiane, no TRUE CHRISTIAN believes that PROCLAIMING CHRIST ALONE is disrespectful. This is absolutely an ORTHODOX teaching. Today you already found out how wrong you are in thinking “mainstream” Baptist must somehow believe the Jews are worshipping the same god of the JESUS the SON’s Father – you demonstrated you have no clue what = mainstream. AGAIN it is not disrespectful to PROCLAIM THE TRUTH. Your liberal, universalist sites are not the MAINSTREAM. The SBC is MAINSTREAM.
DAVE MILLER, if you ever show up again. I’m wondering is there a point where you say enough is enough and you stop the person who is disparaging the GOSPEL, who is insulting those PROCLAIMING in CHRIST ALONE as being “disrespectful” and hinting at anti-semitism – of all the petty insults against people, where does someone stand up and say “ENOUGH – you will not DISRESPECT MY SAVIOR by saying other paths are valid – CHRIST’s sacrifice on the CROSS is simply one of many ways to believe.”
1. Calling the building the “church” (wish we would have stuck with calling them “meeting houses”). The people of God are the church. A problem in values comes in if we value the building (as if it were a temple) over the people.
2. Tithing. I don’t have a problem if a collective or individual people “freely” want to tithe (though I do not believe that standard is binding in the New Covenant). However, it is wrong for us to teach that the curse of Malachi 3:8-10 will come upon people if they do not tithe. Christ was cursed. His people will not be.
3. Seeing the pastor as a priest (though he is not technically called that). This invites a “pastor does the work whereas I receive” mentality from the congregation and thus takes away from the body of Christ collectively ministering to one another. Also, can cause pastors to burn out.
4. Payment. I still think there is a place for paying pastors (I admit I am one). I don’t have a problem paying Schreiner and Kostenberger (both professors) through the CP. I benefit from their work (although I am not a slave to everything they write…nor should I be). In the same kind of way, I think there is a place for paying pastors for the benefit of the whole church. And if the church benefits, then the church helping others should arise naturally (from getting spiritually fed).
Good words, Benji.
However, it is wrong for us to teach that the curse of Malachi 3:8-10 will come upon people if they do not tithe.
So, do you believe blessing (the opposite of cursing) will come upon believers who consistently rob God by not giving regularly. The curse did not come because of “who” they were, but what they “did” (or in this case did not do).
Christ’s work on the cross does not remove the consequences of our bad actions (which seem to fit the idea of curse). My brother was a believer and abused alcohol. I can pretty much assure you that Jesus did not remove the consequences of His actions–though I believe He did remove the “consequences of his sin” (not plural, sins).
In my opinion from my study, God’s interaction with Israel in regard to their behavior is instructive for all God’s children (see Book of Hebrews).
I think we can get hung up on semantics, but I believe that a proper understanding of honoring God with the first-fruits of your life is a solid Biblical truth not annulled (sp?) by the sacrifice of Christ, but actually enhanced thereby.
I believe the Law of Moses was a “if you obey, then you will be blessed…if you disobey, then you will be cursed” system.
Yes, it had a picture of the gospel in the sacrifices and I believe that the God who gave the law of Moses was gracious, but I believe the basic law system as mentioned above was legal. For example, Paul does not offer alternative interpretations to the law of Moses to supposed “legalistic interpretations” of the Jew in Romans 7 (I think Douglas Moo pointed that out to me in his Romans commentary). He says we “died” to it instead so that we are freed up to marry Jesus.
Accordingly, I believe Jesus came under the Mosaic law and both obeyed it and took its curse.
Therefore, for all those in union with Christ, the wording is significantly altered:
Since Christ has obeyed, then we are blessed.
Since Christ took the curse, then we are free from condemnation.
There is a sense in which we reap what we sow, of course, but I think that is an organic thing instead of a legal thing. And we can learn from Israel by way of illustration that we should “trust and obey” God instead of doing what they did.
Christiane, I have NO idea what the above from the Holocaust museum has to do with our discussion. An athiest could hide Jews, open their homes, etc., but would still not have eternal life through Jesus Christ. I have known some very compassionate and loving athiests in my time.
The ten Boom’s are some false argument she’s pushing to show how mean it is to claim that JEWS who DENY the SON are not worshipping the ONE TRUE GOD. She wants to imply that anyone who believes that GOD is found exclusivesly through CHRIST the SON is somehow a wacko crazy and not orthodox or mainstream.
I wonder if there’s a point where DAVE MILLER gets that L’s is not here to learn and/or have honest discussion, but to insult and show her condescension to those who believe that there is only ONE WAY, ONE TRUTH, ONE LIFE and no ONE gets to FATHER without the SON.
BESS, I respect David’s decisions here.
If you are uncomfortable about those Scriptures I gave,
and about my references to Corrie ten Boom and her family,
then perhaps, rather than blame me, you ask yourself why that it is that those Scriptures were written, and you can ask yourself why it is that the story I shared, of the ten Booms’ witness to Christ, is offensive to you.
I’m not your problem, Bess.
I think DAVID is someone who would admire Corrie ten Boom and her family. I wouldn’t have quoted her otherwise.
And, although DAVID and I may not see the same on many topics, he knows I am at peace with the decisions he makes concerning me on this blog. I am not offended if he deletes my comments.
I am not offended if he disagrees with me.
As far as those Scriptures I quoted that you commented about, they are very famous among ministers:
the Deuteronomy prayer and the corresponding words of St. Paul to the Corinthians. David will know of that connection, as a minister, I am certain. And he would not be offended by those Scriptures, I believe.
Best for me not to engage you in comments in future, if my comments are so upsetting to you. But, Bess, I am not your problem here.
L’s your comments should be offensive to any professing Christians – your insinuation that lies are truth and the TRUTH is hateful should affect anyone who truly professes faith in JESUS CHRIST the LORD. You are not my problem L’s as you seem to be clearly lost and acting as such. It’s professing Christians who scream and stamp their feet constantly proclaiming Christ who refuse to stand up for HIM who are problems. L’s, Dave Miller has told you that you are pushing a false gospel leading straight to hell. Even the demons know scripture – you are ignoring the full counsel of Scripture. So no I’m not impressed by your misuse of Scripture as you clearly are denying the TRUTH of the WHOLE SCRIPTURES which is that there is only ONE WAY, ONE TRUTH, and ONE LIFE and no MAN comes to the FATHER but by ME.
I’m sorry, having been around SBC churches for about 18 years now, I have never once, even in the most “pelagian-esque begging” alter calls where people come down to receive Christ, seen anyone give glory or honor to the sinner or the pastor for the salvation of the sinner that took place. Never.
While some of the points, in a general sense, are agreeable, this is mostly straw.
What is even a bigger hindrance to the SBC than this somewhat manufactured problem is using church services PRIMARILY for evangelism rather than for worship of God and instruction for the flock.
Of course the Gospel content will get diluted if the appeal is made week after week after week to primarily the same audience by the same pastor. The problem isn’t the “alter call” at the end of sermons so much as the problem is having to aim for one with every sermon.
The Apostle Paul was an evangelist, not a pastor, so his “woe to me if I don’t preach the Gospel” wasn’t about the pulpit in worship services for church, it was in the highways and byways…and the best way to not “hinder” the GCR or SBC is to train and push evangelism by the flock OUTSIDE of the services, not better presentations of the core Gospel message during all of them.
I’m just saying…
Jesus Christ was the MOST loving person ever to walk this earth. He healed, loved, cried over people….YET…they crucified Him! His compassion and love ended up being hated by many. Some of the same folks who witnessed His love and compassion were in the end yelling: Crucify Him!
Why? Because He claimed to be Messiah…the only way to eternal life.
Dan,
I truly enjoyed reading your blog post. I was somewhat disappointed to see it descend into an argument about the Ten Boom family, but I know as a moderator that sometimes these things take on a life of their own. I’m sure that everyone meant well and no hi-jack was intentional. Just passionate Christians.
I will tell you where I stand on the ‘C’ word and ‘A’ word. For most of my Christian life I avoided Romans 8 and 9 as if it was written in some language I could not understand and never would. It was so far apart from everything I have always held to, that it scared me. Seriously, I was TERRIFIED. Through a series of events, that started with watching a nutcase person who calls himself a Pastor, one thing led to another. Before I knew it I was listening to John Piper, John MacArthur, Francis Chan, James White, and even GASP Mark Driscoll. So, right now I’m at 3 points of Calvinism and 2 points that I can’t seem to reconcile in my mind. I have left those points with Jesus trusting they He will send me where I should go. But I definitely fall closer to the ‘C’ side.
I once was having a conversation with an atheist who asked me, if a homosexual went to church, said the sinners prayer, and then went right back to living a homosexual lifestyle, was that person saved? The ‘A’ in me wanted to say ‘absolutely, yes’. Add in the doctrine of OSAS and there was no question in my mind that I was right. Over time however, I was not so sure. If the experience of truly knowing that you are a sinner in need of a savior, doesn’t mean that you need to do something about the sin, then what in the world does it mean? Worse, have we sent the wrong message to the homosexual? Does he think his ticket is punched and hell is no longer a concern? Or was I drifting into ‘works salvation’ the curse of everything Christian. I was convinced that works salvation was in serious error and I still am. But honestly, I don’t believe any longer that saying a set of words saves anyone. The experience of turning your life over to Jesus means so much more than mere words. It means a sincere change of heart and mind and a surrender of our will. We are still going to sin, but it will hurt us when we do. We’ll know that we have acted in a way that does not please God.
Yes… I think you are right about preaching grace, but living in works. Baptists can find almost anything to split hairs over to the point that churches divide, hateful words are said, and self righteousness is the order of the day. Now me, I was in the Navy for 20 years, so I’ve seen my share of tattoos. I don’t like them one bit, but I especially don’t like them on women. It’s tacky! But I have learned that I’m not the judge of what other people find acceptable in terms of dress, and other superficial matters. If nothing else, it wastes so much time when we could be making a difference that matters.
My Pastor is an expository teacher. He teaches book by book, verse by verse. It’s been an eye opener and has helped to ground me. We don’t get all worked up over what version of the Bible we read, or whether or not Christians should listen to Contemporary Christian music. If Christians want to argue over that, then they can take it out of the church.
I hope you offer more topics to SBC Voices.
Here is a very clear example of what I think you are saying:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u6QDbFqGeY Notice he says “I got ’em saved”.
In His Grace
A person is either a Christian or he is not. The determinant factor is not a function of who does or who does not milign that person or who does or who does not honor that person.
Christianity is a relationship between each person and God. Everyone else is out of the loop.
If a person has bad theology and thinks someone is a Christian that doesn’t either make that person a Christian or not a Christian.
If a person has good theology and thinks someone is a Christian that doesn’t either make that person person a Christian or not a Christian.
Specifically, for the purposes of illustration, lets say that Christine, Bess, or Lydia have either a good or bad understanding of what salvation is, or have either a correct or incorrect understanding as to what constitutes a Christian, or think “person X” is either an angel or the devil incarnate. In any case, none of this is going to influence God in his determination of “person X’s” relationship to him.
You guys are arguing about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. You can’t know whether some person — say some guy in the Netherlands that helped sheter people from the Nazis — is a Christian or not.
Once you decide if someone in the TenBoom family is Christian I have a follow-on assignment. I wan’t to know if Billy Joe Compton Coffeyville KS is a Christian or not. And if so, why or why not?
Hi Roger, I do not think that ‘Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation’ is an ‘angels dancing on a pin” argument. I regret that I even responded to Christiane’s statement about ten Boom’s. I thought she had totally misread the situation. To use the ten Booms to spread a false gospel was a bit much for me.
“Specifically, for the purposes of illustration, lets say that Christine, Bess, or Lydia have either a good or bad understanding of what salvation is, or have either a correct or incorrect understanding as to what constitutes a Christian, or think “person X” is either an angel or the devil incarnate. In any case, none of this is going to influence God in his determination of “person X’s” relationship to him. ”
Then why have pastors? Why proclaim Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation to a long time professing Christian who does not believe it? What would be the point?
“Once you decide if someone in the TenBoom family is Christian I have a follow-on assignment. I wan’t to know if Billy Joe Compton Coffeyville KS is a Christian or not. And if so, why or why not?”
In one way, Roger, this is truly sad. I understand where you are cmoing from as in many will say ‘Lord Lord’…but seriously if no one can ever know if anyone is a true believer or not… that does not say much for us….or our Savior.
A Great Gospel Resurgence as already suggested would be a winner. I’ve enjoyed the bantor and well founded exchanges today (29th).
John 2:23– “No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also”,
On Pentecost Peter told a crowd full of Jews that they had to accept Jesus as Messiah in order to be saved, though they already worshiped the one true God.
Lydia:
You are right in saying, “. . if someone can’t know if someone else is a Christian or not then that doesn’t say much for us, does it? . . .
My answer, “No it doesn’t”.
That is my whole point. Even in principle, we can’t know who is or who isn’t a true child of God.
As to whether or not Jesus is the only way to heaven, of course Jesus is the only way. For example, at BIlly Graham crusades the stadium message boards say, “I am the truth, the way, the life, no man comes to the father but by Me” [John 14:6]
I’m not arguing for universalism. I’m only saying that God is calling the shots, not us. We don’t control stuff, we just provide a little help on the side so people can have a relationship with God.
God’s plan is that he outsources a small (very very small) piece of the action to us. But it is a small piece. Even if all of us teamed up to “help” one single person — out of the billions in the world — we couldn’t get that guy into heaven. Christianity is not an endeavor where adherants have any excuse to be on an ego trip.
Lydia, after we pass through the pearly gates we will probably notice some people are not there that we thought would be there, and also some are there that we throught would not be there.
Dan you say …
“My first concern I have to say is the way we present the gospel. As a Professor once told me “Southern Baptists preach grace, but we live works.” There are a number of ways that we do this, so let’s start at the beginning with Salvation. We have taken God out of the equation all together, and salvation has been reduced to a simple decision. All I have to do is accept it, reach out and take it, as long as I make the choice, I do the deed, I do the right thing and make the right decision. Will someone explain to me how that is NOT works theology?”
How many SBC pastors have you listened to in the last five or ten years? Do you travel around to a lot of congregations? Do you hear the invitations they or “we” extend on Sundays?
My fear is that your are just repeating what you are reading and hearing. I’ve read statements like this many times before on other blogs. It’s getting old and worn out.
I believe that the SBC has some of the finest pastor/evangelists in the world. I believe that most of us preach the true gospel and simply follow the scriptures by calling sinners to repent and believe.
I’m proud that most of our guys boldly proclaim the gospel and are not ashamed to plead for the souls of the lost to be saved.
I’m glad that most of the preachers in the SBC have the encourage to extend public invitations to come to the Cross to believe and receive!
I’m joyful that most of the SBC pastors don’t run around wringing their hands that somebody “might” get saved at the end of their sermons.
I’m over-joyed that most of our SBC pastors know that sinners … who call upon the Lord Jesus Christ through the wonderful work of the Holy Spirit will/shall be saved.
Blessings in 2011, Ron Hale
Dan,
Thanks for the blog. I am new to these things, like blogs, SBC thinking et. al., but, isn’t a part of the Great Commission to “baptize them in the name…”? Now, if we laypeople are to personalize the “go, teach, disciple…”, rather than to leave these duties solely to the “professional preacher, pastors”, then shouldn’t we also personalize the second part of the Commission, the command to baptize as incumbent upon “us” (the laypeople) to actually do the baptizing?
Aren’t we robbing the common lay Christian of a joy and privilege to perform this ordinance, or are we supposed to allow only the professional pastor to do the baptizing. And wouldn’t this hinder any Resurgence of the Great Commission. Am I seeing a tension or omission here or between the first and second parts of the Comission being played out in churches ?
What are your thoughts on this? Where am I wrong on this, as far as I know only ordained ministers perform the baptizing in SBC churches, no? where is the scriptural background for this?
Signed, Just Wondering or ( please point me toward the applicable blog)