“He who has been in the dark dungeon knows the way to the bread and the water.” –Charles Spurgeon
I’ve been in the dark dungeon. I’ve battled depression and anxiety for years. A few years ago I finally acknowledged this and began the road to recovery. I haven’t arrived by any means but I think I’ve at least found the bread and the water Spurgeon is referring to.
Here is the path that I’ve found to get the bread and water of mental health.
In the Dungeon
When I become aware of my anxiety/depression (or dearly loved ones point out my melancholy) my first step is to assess the situation. Or perhaps it would be better to say my first step after crying out desperately for rescue is to assess the situation.
First, I attempt to figure out how I got in this dungeon. What is making me feel anxious or down? Do I have unconfessed sin? Or am I dealing with the consequence of confessed sin? Is there a circumstance that is bothering me? Are there no known causes—is it possible it is simply biological? Is my melancholy a right response to real pain?
Second, I attempt to figure out how dark it really is. I use a scale from 1-10. 10 is a full meltdown. 1 is when everything feels fine. Trying to determine how dark it is helps me to know what steps I need to take to get out of the darkness.
Last winter I decided to take the step of going to the doctor to get medicine for anxiety. I did not desire—nor feel it necessary—for me to get something that I take on a daily basis. What I knew I needed was something to help whenever I get to about a 7 on the scale. I had found that when I get to a 7 I’m not going to get back down unless I get to a 10. And getting to a 10 isn’t helpful for me or my family.
So now if I find myself getting to a 7 I’ll take medicine to get my brain chemistry back under control so I can begin to fight. The past few months have been pretty stressful for our family but I’ve only taken medicine twice since I was prescribed them. God is doing a mighty work in renewing my mind. I may never have to take medicine again…but I’m prepared if I get to a 6 or 7.
I’ve found if I’m going to live in mental health it is vital for me to accurately assess where I am. Many times I can’t do this alone. I need my wife and friends to tell me when I seem to be stumbling into the darkness. Once I’ve assessed the darkness I know its time to get out.
The Gate of Permission
The door out of the dungeon is the gate of permission. Or maybe it would be better phrased the gate of non-permission.
I’ve found that when the lights go out I have a tendency to feel sorry for myself. I feel as if my suffering is unique. And I assume that I’ve gone lower than anyone else has ever gone. Nobody understands. Nobody feels how I do. Nobody can help.
So I’ve had to do two things.
First, I tell myself that I do not have permission to stay here. There is nothing holy about being miserable. In fact the Christian life should be one marked with joy—even in the midst of suffering. I’m not beating myself up. I’m not pouring guilt on my head. I’m just being honest with the fact that Jesus didn’t die for me to be stuck in a dungeon. This isn’t my home. I need to get out.
Secondly, I tell myself that I’m not unique and that nobody—not even me—as went deeper into the darkness than the Lord Jesus. I cannot give Self or my fallen emotions the keys to rule me. They don’t have permission. I’m ruled by the Lord Jesus. He holds the keys of comfort and I’ll never get to a place darker than He has been.
Once I step through the gate of permission I’m on my way to finding bread and water. But first I must walk through the Hall of Gospel Encouragement
The Hall of Gospel Encouragement
Your first step into the hall of gospel encouragement is usually sickening. It’s painful. It’s wounding. It doesn’t feel fair. It typically makes you want to crawl back into the dungeon and forget the bread and water all together.
Community is the last thing I want in a time like this. For some really silly reason I don’t want to hear about joy, or gospel truths, or fixes. I just want to hurt. And so I can run from community or find some terrible excuse for community in the form of complainers.
This is not what I need. What I need is to believe the truth of the gospel more than my own darkened version of “truth”. And that only comes by walking down the hall of gospel encouragement. The first step is usually repulsive but I’ve found a way to get my fearful self down that hall. Here is how I do it.
First, I listen to dead or distant encouragers. I crack open my the works of my Puritan friends. I spend a day with my buddy John Newton. Or I listen to a sermon by someone I don’t know and someone who doesn’t even know me—someone like Matt Chandler or John Piper. Someone who will preach the gospel and tell me truth. I need to keep listening and reading until I believe gospel truth over my own lies.
Second, I listen to living and in my life encouragers. At this point I’m ready to hear gospel encouragement from friends. I’m able to hear truth—even in the form of rebukes. I’m able to trust an uncomfortable gospel more than my own comfortable darkness.
Sometimes my walk down the hall is brief. At other times it is a long and painful walk marked by aggressive bolts back towards the dungeon of despair. Community is often painful to the depressed—even well meaning gospel encouraging community. But if you want the bread and water it’s the only way. You’ve got to get into the Room of Truth if you’re going to live in mental health.
The Room of Truth
It is here where bread and water are found….sort of. In reality bread and truth is with you every step of the way. Because ultimately Christ is our bread and Christ is our water. He alone sustains us. It is His Spirit which pulls us out of the dungeon and woos us along the hall of encouragement. And ultimately where He opens our eyes in the Room of Truth.
Yet there is a way in which we aren’t able to eat of this bread and water unless we are in the Room of Truth.
It is here where change in our thinking happens. In the room of truth our thinking is renewed and our brains are rewired to think and rejoice in that which is true instead of false.
It is here also where change in our actions come. We learn to rest. We learn to relax. We learn to eat better, to exercise, to put healthy disciplines in our life. We learn to actually walk in the truth.
Conclusion:
This is where I’ve found bread and water—or perhaps better to say found the ability to see and enjoy and savor bread and water.
This has been my path. What helps have you found? If you’ve been in the dungeon where did you find bread and water?
–
photo credit: here
When despair gets me down, my wife has a pick-me-up statement: “”This, too, shall pass.” Her confidence in the sovereignty of God has been one of the greatest and most cheerful attitudes that I could have ever desired in a companion. Ups and downs have been the story of my whole life, from childhood to old age. Among the works that have helped me, I would mention the following by the Puritans, A Lifting Up For The Downcast, The Rare Jewel of Christian Contentment, Divine Providence, and many of the sermons by the last of the Puritans as he was called (but not really so), Spurgeon. Arthur Pink also received that title from some. I don’t really think there will ever be a last of the Puritans, though I much prefer the term Pilgrims who advocated congregational church government. Too many of the Puritans seem to want to run to a Presbyterian form. No form of church government is a guarantee of preservation from problems. I simply believe the Bible teaches congregational church government. Anyway, even folks wrong in many areas can get some things right. God seems to like distributing His gifts of understanding, application, and etc. hither and yon among His children.
From the seemingly innumerable trials which I have experienced, I would say that some of them definitely have a preparatory nature for things to follow, for ministry, for accomplishments in the service of God. Others are inexplicable, and their purposes might not be known until we see the tapestry from the Eternal side.
I appreciate that last paragraph, brother. It is an encouragement to me.
“…their purposes might not be known until we see the tapestry from the Eternal side.”
I absolutely love this. That perspective is very helpful in the various and sundry trials we endure while in our body of death – I’m reminded of what Paul says at the end of Romans chapter 7 – (A passage that I think addresses much of what’s being talked about in this article and comment stream) thanks be to God who through Jesus Christ saves us from the curse of sin and flesh and shall truly save us from the body of death!
Good stuff.
I have had quite a battle with depression and broken emotions since 1995. I take Paxil and that has been a big help. When I am really low, I just try to keep moving forward at even a very, very slow pace if necessary. I can not even imagine how I would feel if I believed that my eternal destiny was fixed in stone long before my birth. I think that, alone, would be enough to put me over the brink ala William Cowper.
Alan, sorry to hear of your struggles. It sounds like the light is beginning to shine, though, and that is encouraging.
As far as our views of predestination and William Cowper, for me personally my views on predestination have actually helped me while in the darkness. When things get really bad I have a tendency to start feeling worthless and my heart and mind turn to performance. The doctrine that God has chosen me in Christ before the foundation of the world–apart from anything in me (even apart from foreseen faith) is a great encouragement. It’s an encouragement that God is going to finish what He started.
As far as Cowper, he was an interesting person and his depression an interesting case. You are correct that he held a more Calvinistic understanding of predestination but it’s strange what his mind did with it. He believed in evangelical Calvinism for everyone else but himself. When his friend, John Newton, would try to show him that he had faith, he’d show him the promises of Scripture, etc. Cowper would agree theologically but he believed he was some sort of unique case. He believed that he was the only elect person that would be damned. Strange indeed.
Mike Leake,
Don’t you think there is too much rational thinking on your part to be in severe depression? With severe depression, rational thinking is out the door. Trying to use scripture for a pick me up is also out the door.
There is a difference between a mild form of depression and clinical depression, a world of difference.
I’m worried about peoples health when they read posts like this because no amount of talking will help. No amount of God’s word will help either.
It will take nothing short of medication to get back on the right tract with severe depression. I’m thinking most of you have never had severe depression because you think God’s word will straighten you out.
We want to help people not cause them to become suicidal.
Just surfing the web and happened upon your nourishing site…I love the Word, The Lord and ministry.
I must comment, though, to Jess…I have been in the dark night of the soul, something I never believed in before ( how could a Christian dare to lose hope?). I have been irrational and so low that I did consider suicide…and I had to face the possibility of medication. But this is where I must disagree with your statement: “it will take nothing short of medication to get you back on the right track”…
It was that place of literally coming to the end of myself and my solutions… Of allowing my paradigms of how God moves and the enemy weasels his way into our lives…of being crushed, betrayed, disappointed … And casting it all on God… All my bitter disappointments…that He literally became my all. He rescued me by being enough for me. He became my medicine.
We evangelicals don’t do emotion well. We’re suspicious of being ruled by our emotions so we try to bury, hide, avoid, ignore…when these emotions are a beautiful, meaningful, essential gift of my personhood from God. They are woven into my beliefs and are often how I experience the love and truth of God.
No amount of self talk, albeit Biblical self talk, will break through the places where I am choosing to hide my emotions in broad daylight from God. He wants emotional integrity from me. His vast love for me can take whatever emotion I am experiencing. His love is what provides the stabilizing anchor to my unpredictable seas of emotion.
All that said, sometimes we’re crazy if we DONT talk to ourselves…and declare the Truth out loud to ourselves. 😉
Hope to any and all who read this…God has a purpose for the darkness…even if it’s simply to teach you to trust His voice, and not just what you see.
As I understand it, there is a distinction between discouragement/depression and clinical depression.
Some need medical care, not all do. To assume that everyone who is depressed must have drugs is as wrong as to assume that no one does. It’s not easy to differentiate.
My times of discouragement/depression have been solvable through spiritual means and have not required medical help. For others, there are underlying medical problems that require medical attention.
I would never say that everyone needs drugs. I would never say that no one does.
Jess,
Here is where I agree. I believe that we have to deal with people (and even ourselves) with where we are. We are whole creatures and this means that we are also physical beings. There are times when the chemicals in our brain combined with wrong thinking will combine and put us in such a state that we do need medication.
This is why I mentioned in the beginning that for me the first step is assessing the darkness. If I’m at a 7 or 8 and try to counsel myself as if I’m a 4 or 5 I’m going to get my tail kicked. Something has happened–sometimes its biological, sometimes it is wrong thinking–and I’ve gotten to a spot where rational thinking is pretty much out the door. In these moments I’ll take a bit of medicine to get me back to a manageable spot.
I’m not at a spot where I have to take medicine on a daily basis. And so I’m not pretending that my suffering is unique or deeper than the suffering of someone else. But I have had some pretty serious bouts with depression and this is where I’ve found bread and water in the midst of them. This will help some people–others may not find bread and water the same way.
As far as making people suicidal, I don’t think so. I think its strange thinking to say that it must not be severe depression because Scripture and right thinking actually work. God uses different means at different times. His Word is powerful in any situation. I don’t think anyone ever needs “just medicine”. Likewise I believe there are some who do need a bit of help from medicine. But God has given us this grace to assist us in battling and developing right thinking.
Mike,
Thanks for sharing this information. Over the years, it appears to me that depression takes many forms, and this quick post is a good indicator of that. I like what you said here… as I believe it gets at the beginning of turning the thought process and ultimately the state around to some degree.
When you said…”Community is the last thing I want in a time like this. For some really silly reason I don’t want to hear about joy, or gospel truths, or fixes. I just want to hurt. And so I can run from community or find some terrible excuse for community in the form of complainers.
This is not what I need. What I need is to believe the truth of the gospel more than my own darkened version of “truth”. And that only comes by walking down the hall of gospel encouragement. The first step is usually repulsive but I’ve found a way to get my fearful self down that hall. Here is how I do it.”
It is my contention that the Holy Spirit knows what we need, and the power of the gospel to save is a dramatic encouragement! It also makes sense to me that it would be the “first step is usually repulsive”…yet to understand that is critical as well.
Again, thanks for sharing.
-Chris
Thanks, Chris. I think you’ve rightly understood that I don’t intend this to be a cure-all or fix-all. Depression is varied with multiple causes and often multiple cures. Ultimately, we know depression won’t be in the new heaven and the new earth and that is a terrific encouragement!
Mike covers all the bases here – medication included. Among friends, I think the piece says what needs to be said. A random person would likely not get all the Bunyanesque stuff.
Occasionally, we can all be right. Jess, Dave, Doc, Chris, and Alan all contribute appropriately to the subject.
I’d bet that half that group isn’t old enough to remember that this was a taboo subject a decade or two ago. Now almost all discussions of depression among clergy in our circles includes talk of doctors, even medications.
This is a positive development. Who knows? Lives will perhaps be saved.
As an aside, Jess. You are the first person to suggest that a baptist preacher is engaging in too much rational thinking.
I think it is foolish to contend that medication is never needed for persons dealing with mental illness – whether it be depression or other forms of mental issues.
I also think it is foolish and quite contrary to a an understanding of the sufficiency of scripture to contend that no amount of scripture and spiritual discipline will help.
It’s a both/and. Sometimes medicine in necessary and a pastoral counselor who is walking in the Spirit will be able to discern when it is time to recommend additional more professional treatment.
Do some pastors step outside their “lane”, and seek to treat physical illness by using scripture inappropriately? Sure some do, and it is sad and unwise and even dangerous for them to do so.
Do psychiatrists and psychologists, and those who contend that these hold ALL the answers to these issues step outside their “lane” – seeking to treat spiritual issues with medicine and worldly wisdom. You bet they do, and it is sad, and unwise and even dangerous when they do so.
Simply put medication alone cannot do what scripture and spiritual discipline can do – among which is to point suffering people to the Sovereign God of all comfort on whom we are instructed to cast our cares upon because he cares for us – and scripture and spiritual discipline alone cannot do what medicine can do – such as to work to correct issues that can be corrected and treated by that means.
Medicine is not curse or a bad thing…it is a gift God to mankind – but faithful brethren must never substitute medicine for pastoral and scriptural counseling – which is also a blessing from God.
Tarheel,
I pray that you will never have to face the truth the hard way. This statement is all I have to say about the subject. Good day.
Jess,
Before you bid me a good day, please tell me what you mean by your comment.
I acknowledged the need in some circumstances for medication but I did not and will not minimize the role of scripture and spiritual discipline in mental healing.
If that in your view means I’m not in line with “truth” then I can live just fine with that.
Tarheel, you guys can have your own conversation without me but your lengthy comment above sent a mixed message. I’ve read enough of your stuff to sort it out and generally agree. Others may be less informed after reading.
For John, and all others so inclined to be helpful, when a medical issue presents (depression, infertility, asthenia, etc.) everyone has a suggestion. Maybe it’s best to go to a qualified health care professional who is data-driven in regard to causes and treatments.
Thank you for your input, William.
Let me try to be more clear: medication and professional Christian and Christ Centered counseling Beyond that of pastoral counseling is sometimes necessary – but scriptural and spiritual discipline counseling is always necessary for genuine mental health healing. It should never be forsaken or minimized – especially by pastors.
Along the same lines I would never ever under any circumstances recommend a Christian to go to any “professional counseling” other than that of Christian and Biblically Christ centered nature. I would not send those under my care and shepherding who are in need of mental health counseling to a godless worldly counselor. I believe such to unhealthy, and even potentially detrimental to a person’s faith.
Tarheel,
I will respond just one more time. I sought out and went to a Christian Psychologist for eight sessions, everything he said, I already knew by heart. I paid out a lot of money from my own pocket. Instead of getting better, I grew worse. He would quote scripture, and it would just be met with rejection in my mind. Needless to say I stopped going.
Finally, when I thought I would just like to end it all. I broke down and went to my family doctor. It took my family doctor about a minute to diagnose me with severe depression. He put me on medication. It took about two weeks for the medication to fully kick in. The days became brighter, I started to enjoy my family again, I started to enjoy work again. I began smiling again, and meant those smiles. I wanted to be around people again. It took about two months to start enjoying church again.
I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone, and I’m not saying this to put anyone down. There is a vast difference between feeling down for a while and snapping out of it, “we all go through that”, and full blown depression. For me, no amount of God’s word could help. The problem with the comments I read on this post is that you all are trying to apply rational thinking to the irrational minds of those who are depressed, It will not work.
I have nothing to gain by my comments, I’m not trying to sell anything, or be something I’m not. I’m telling the truth about what happened to me. I do believe in putting God first, but gifts of healing died with the Apostles.
This is why I say most of you haven’t the foggiest idea of what you are talking about. You are trying to hold to your doctrine while people suffer. I think it’s a shame, I pray your eyes will be opened.
Jess,
I hear what you are saying, brother. I think there is a real danger of wrongly holding onto theology in the midst of someones suffering (see Job’s friends). I also agree that simple rational thinking to someone with an irrational mind is just going to end in frustration.
But I think you are making a couple of leaps that I can’t take with you. First, I think you are equating administering God’s Word with rational thinking. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 helps us see that God’s Word is sufficient. It is also powerful. It is much different than irrational thinking. I’m not saying that it is some sort of magical panacea that if applied will always work. But I am saying that we are to speak God’s Word even to the deaf.
Secondly, I readily acknowledge that there is a temptation (that we often succumb to) to be a know-it-all and to assume that we understand a person’s situation and suffering when we haven’t the foggiest. That is arrogance. But I also believe it is arrogance to assume that others CAN’T have a clue as to what we are going through simply because they haven’t walked a mile in our specific moccasins.
Mike Leake,
I respectfully disagree with you. The sooner Ministers get out of the medical profession and start sticking with the word of God, the better. If not, someone is going to end up suicidal.
I will not hesitate to send my members to a medical doctor if I sense in anyway there might be a depression problem. I think that is God’s will, and that is good enough for me.
A person with experience is never at the mercy with someone with an argument.
Jess,
I think you are making a both/and an either/or.
Why do you keep doing that? I am trying to have a discussion with you. Trying to understand your position and help you understand mine.
I have never, not once used the phrase (or even thought) in these discussions “get over it” or “snap out of it” – I understand depression more than you know and have not in any way dismissed or diminished the reality of it. If you have read dismissive sentiments into my comments you are severely misunderstanding me. In addition you make great assumptions that I do not understand the issue of depression and how it effects people – assumptions that are very wrong.
I am truly glad that you received the medication you needed to deal with whatever chemically may have been linked to your struggles with depression. I have said repeatedly that medication is sometimes necessary – perhaps your case in one in which it is (it seems so from your comments anyway).
My point is that comments like “scripture will not work” and you have said that many times in these types of discussions – is in fact problematic language for those who believe in the sufficiency of scripture, spiritual disciplines and the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit. That language seems to convey that what the gifts of comfort and hope that God has given his children are worthless.
You and William seem to assume that I universally reject medication in cases of mental illness, that is simply not my view not is it what I have said.
I do read from your comments that you reject the healing work of scripture and spiritual disciplines when it comes to mental illness. Perhaps I am misreading you as you are misreading me? Maybe you might clarify so I might understand?
The race to “medicate the brethren” approach also ignores that very often, not always, but often depression is in fact, as Mike indicated in his post, brought on by ones disobedience or rebellion against God and His word. Sometimes a steering in that direction is what needed more so than treating/masking the symptoms with medicine. Again, sometimes medication is in fact needed. Situations vary in our fallen world. This is why I spoke earlier that a Spirit led pastoral counselor will have the discernment and wisdom when a medical intervention recommendation is necessary.
Tarheel,
I rest my case!
Alrighty, then.
No need to assume what I think about your stuff on depression. I said what I thought: Your message is a bit mixed, though I generally agree with you.
I think there is a need for pastors to be clear on this. Some of what we put under the label of depression or emotional problems CANNOT be cured by Bible reading and prayer.
You agree with this, right? Mike also?
[Of course, God can miraculously heals anything, mend broken bones, restore amputated limbs. ]
“Some of what we put under the label of depression or emotional problems CANNOT be cured by Bible reading and prayer.”
I would say that, in the life of a believer, what we put under the label of depression and emotional problems cannot be dealt with without Scripture and spiritual disciplines.
In some cases medication is needed deal with the chemical imbalances that may be contributing to the depression so that the message of the scriptures can be heard and subsequently received….but to convey that scripture and spiritual discipline does not (cannot) play a part in mental health healing is a bridge a little too far for me.
You are changing the question. Why so hard to accept that some depression is like heart disease and cannot be cured by more prayer and Bible reading? It’s nonsensical to try and separate depression into “chemical imbalances” which do not yield to P & BS and other components which are helped. That is what looks like a confusing message. How do you know when to refer for medication and when to admit that P & BS are insufficient?
It matters, life and death sometimes, so I think this is always a fruitful discussion.
I am not sure that I accept the premise of your question…
It seems your premise is that the scriptures and spiritual disciplines are pointless and irrelevant.
(Changing your hear disease to cancer for discussion) Would you ever tell a cancer patient…Hey dude, don’t pray or read your bible for comfort and assistance in the dark days ahead it won’t work…just get your chemo and go to the doctor”?
I would feel safe in venturing a guess that you would exclaim “Of course not!” in answer to that question…so why with depression? Is it so special that it renders scripture and spiritual disciplines irrelevant?
William,
I think some of this is semantics more than anything. I’m a tad uncomfortable saying that Bible reading and prayer CANNOT cure something. But I’m uncomfortable with that because it sounds like limiting God. But I know that isn’t what you mean.
For me I’d say that at times Scripture and prayer might not be the primary means that God uses to heal someone. Or maybe that Scripture and prayer won’t be the first means that God uses to heal someone. We have to minister with people where they are. Some people are in such a state that what is needed is medication to get them to think correctly. In such instances I think it is not being a good soul-care physician to insist on only using one means that God has given us to provide healing while neglecting others.
Allow me to give an illustration from the life (or rather death) of James Garfield. He was technically assassinated by a gunman. But in reality he was killed by his physician. His physician insisted that the bullet had to be located in one spot and he refused to look elsewhere. Had he not been so stubborn (and had he used sterilization methods) Garfield would have survived. I think some pastors/biblical counselors can err the same way. We insist that the bullet has to in one spot and we refuse to holistically counsel.
But on the other hand, I don’t think I’d ever suggest that someone just take medicine. It is far more complex than that. We can be overly simplistic on either end of this. We can assume that someone is healed because medicine has quieted the symptoms–but we’ve forfeited a great opportunity to engage in meaningful soul care.
Tarheel,
I think William is saying ONLY use BS & P. You wouldn’t say to a cancer patient–just read your Bible and Pray. Then you won’t have cancer anymore. That is William’s point, I believe.
For that cancer patient, I would encourage them to go to the doctor – heed the physicians sage advice – but don’t forget God – do not away from Him – run to him where He will be found -I would advise them to immerse themselves in His word and in the spiritual disciplines – there you will find peace and comfort – in the midst of your storm.
I would not tell them to take pain meds and ignore the real illness.
Likewise for the person steeped in depression I would point them to where Christ will be found in the scriptures and spiritual disciplines, while at the same time encouraging them to also see a Christ Centered professional counselor that may or may not include medications.
As I stated earlier I would not advise them to see a worldly counselor for these types of issues, however.
Mike,
“Tarheel,
I think William is saying ONLY use BS & P. You wouldn’t say to a cancer patient–just read your Bible and Pray. Then you won’t have cancer anymore. That is William’s point, I believe.”
That is why I did not answer his question the way he worded it above – I have been very clear, I thought, that medications are sometimes necessary (But never to the exclusion of scripture and spiritual disciplines). Kinda trying to get me to disavow something I never said – as if I had.
Alas, Tarheel, stubbornness has no medication. I prescribe BS and P.
The question would be, how long do you wait until counseling the depressed person to see a physician (not a generic conselor, though he or she may be Christian)? Until suicidal? Post suicidal?
While I speculate that you would likely handle such cases as I would, if all I had to go on was your words here, I wouldn’t trust you with pastoral counseling. Nothing too critical about that statement, I’m just not sure you are communicating your approach well to such things.
I have often referred people I thought depressed to their GP for a medical evaluation. If there is a problem with over-medication, and I don’t doubt that there is, at least I’m not taking someone who trusts my judgment and counsel and condemning them to a longer stay in blackness and depression by a long regimen of BS & P.
I’m not saying this is Tarheel’s problem…took me a long time to find the right mix as a pastor.
William,
You said
“Alas, Tarheel, stubbornness has no medication. I prescribe BS and P.
The question would be, how long do you wait until counseling the depressed person to see a physician (not a generic counselor, though he or she may be Christian)? Until suicidal? Post suicidal?”
Yes, William – you re being quite stubborn and trying to pigeon hole me into a hole I ain’t going in.
Here is what I said just above your rant:
“Likewise for the person steeped in depression I would point them to where Christ will be found in the scriptures and spiritual disciplines, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME encouraging them to also see a Christ Centered professional counselor who may or may not include medications.”
What part of “while at the same time” do you not understand?
You also said;
“It took me a long time to find the right mix as a pastor.”
Well, well, well….maybe one day us wannabe’s will attain your level of understanding, wisdom and perfection and thereby (if we are lucky) earn the esteemed Plodders trust in pastoral counseling. 😉
Tarheel, I didn’t understand your use of “Christ centered professional counselor.” Is there a reason you do not say “physician”?
Actually, you are probably way ahead of me on pastoral practices in this area. Finding the right mix or a comfortable
pastoral policy took me way too long.
I’m not pigeonholing you, actually.
You’re a smart guy. I’d love to see you write a piece explaining how you work with someone who comes to you whom you recognize as depressed, possibly despondent.
Just as you argue that pastors are generally not qualified to diagnose depression (and you are right) – I would argue that most General Practitioners/family doctors are not either. It would be my assumption ( and I admit it is one) that if any medical professional might lean toward medicating the symptoms and not deal with the issues at hand it would be a GP – know what I mean? I would consider that troublesome.
This is why I mentioned a Christ centered Christian counselor – one who is actually trained in counseling and diagnosis (some of these persons can prescribe meds)
I am talking about a person who is a Christian and approaches professional counseling from a Christ Centered biblical perspective. They are trained in diagnosis and counseling but they are not approaching these from a worldly worldview. They may or may not prescribe meds – but they are more trained than I ( and likely most other pastors)
I appreciate the clarification, though if an individual doesn’t have a GP they trust in professional judgments, I’d recommend another.
So, your counselor would be someone you trust to refer to a physician if they judge a medical issue that needs addressing?
Yes, and some of the counselors I have recommended have the ability themselves to prescribe meds.
I was not impugning the integrity or capability GP’s I was simply saying that they are typically not trained in diagnosing and treating depression (there are other professionals who are, and I tend to recommend them) – GP’s, I would think, would echo these sentiments.
Mike,
Have you considered food allergies to be a cause of your issues. I know on the surface you may consider this strange, but we are what we eat and you know the temple.
I have a friend if he eats “cilantro” he becomes very angry and I mean very angry. I have depression issues if I drink moderate amounts of coffee/caffeine over a period of time. You have heard of shell fish and peanut butter allergies that you can die from in microscopic portions.
Save the labels of the foods you eat, place labels in separate envelope each day and place a list of the main foods you eat in that envelope that have no labels. It may be a certain food or a additive. It can be what a certain farm feeds the pigs, so you may be able to eat pork from one farm but not another. You may find a pattern in six months or so. It can also be a lack of a food or food group.
You may find a very simple explanation. Just hope it is not bacon, life without bacon is just not fair.
John,
I’m hearing more and more these days of food allergies/additives causing all kinds of issues.
Thanks for the suggestion, John. I appreciate it. I have noticed that I have to be careful in certain seasons with caffeine. Perhaps there are other things to consider as well.
John,
I agree on the bacon…but I’d be pretty upset if I could not eat cilantro as well. It is a required ingredient in salsa, tacos, burritos – without cilantro – its just pretend.