I stumbled, fell and cried out but my brother shied away
And I found myself alone in silence, wishing he would stay.
He quickly turned the corner, as if he hadn’t realized,
I’d turned and looked to him in pain, with pleading tear-filled eyes.
I saw my brother stumble so I quickly looked away.
I’ll ask him how he’s doing on perhaps a better day.
I heard my brother crying but I quickly realized
He’d not be wanting me to see the tears that filled his eyes.
So we’re just keeping distance till again it all seems right
And saying a little prayer or two before turning in at night.
No reason now to get involved, there’s nothing much to say
Both blind; both fine; both better off this way.
— Thom Hunter
Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. — Galatians 6:2
“Imagine, if you will,” comes the Rod Serling voice, “A church in the middle of a very ordinary town, with stained glass windows, cushioned pews and friendly faces at the door. We’ve arrived on a very ordinary Wednesday night, just in time for the pre-prayer-service meal. Elaine sits in her usual place in the middle of a long table, in the middle of the fellowship hall . . . in the middle of it all.”
“Did you hear about . . . . ?” said Elaine, her voice trailing off a bit as she lowers it, looks side-to-side, and begins to share the news with those in hearing range. Her fork is poised in the air over a plate of ham, sweet-potatoes, peas and carrots and a buttered piece of bread. Elaine is one of the best of the best when it comes to church gossip and ears quickly bend her way.
“Elaine, you’re just like a dog returning to its vomit, I see,” says the pastor in a calm and steady voice as he approaches her table.
Elaine stops, puts down her fork, squirms in her seat a bit, gathers her plate and purse and moves on down to another table.
“Well . . . I never!” she says. “Did you hear what he said to me? You will never believe.”
Again, the voice interrupts: “Elaine, you gossip because you think it is fun, but you’re just like a dog returning to its vomit.”
Elaine, now in shock, sits, ponders, sets her fork gently down beside her plate and says “You’re right, Pastor. I confess to the sin of gossip and I ask for your forgiveness and help in repentance.”
“Sorry, Elaine,” he answers. “This has gone on too long. You’ve confessed before and here you are, at it again. I don’t think it is possible for you to ever stop gossiping. And, while I say this completely out of love for you, I think it’s best for all of us if you just leave and not come back. We’ll vote on it Sunday night, but basically, I think the tribe has spoken.”
So Elaine puts out her torch, which means in this case, stifles her tongue, and leaves immediately. Life goes on, post-Elaine.
Obviously, this is a greatly-exaggerated account. Sin is more subtle; response more nuanced. The Elaines among us are not that blatant in their sin; the pastors not that direct in dealing with it; the church members not that silent an audience. But, in real life, there is a great deal of confusion about how to deal with sin among the believers, particularly when the sin seems to have so firm a grip and especially when that sin is something that we can not easily dissect or dig down to the root cause. We see it flourish and, like a weed among the flowers, we want to pluck it out.
Of course the pastor does not intervene and Elaine is not removed. She finishes her pie and her story with a flourish, confident that her words will be repeated by others, giving her a sense of belonging she can’t seem to find any other way. She keeps on top of all the latest because she needs to be needed and knows no other way. Her sin is gossip; her fear is loneliness. We should start with her fear.
Andy gets antsy about halfway through the prayer meeting, looks at his watch and yawns. The pastor noticed Andy was pretty bleary-eyed already when he came into the church, but Andy just explained that he’d been glued to his computer all afternoon, trying to get a big project done. Andy was anxious to get home and finish the project in his home office: feasting on XXX pornography over the Internet.
Like a dog returning to its vomit? Perhaps. Extending a season of fun? Maybe. More likely feeding a secret addiction that has wrapped itself so tightly around Andy that most of life has now been squeezed from him and he is bound to meaningless images and fantasies that strip him of any dignity and slowly drain from him all the sensitivity he once had toward his wife and children.
Lindsey is 17. As usual, she has worn her favorite long-sleeved turtle-neck pull-over to church and sits in a silent, pouty position at the far end of a back-of-the-room pew. She is listening in, but looking down as she rubs her arms and twists her hands, fighting back tears, but smiling weakly whenever she’s approached.
“Are you okay, honey?” a sweet voice asks.
“I’m fine,” she answers, mustering her familiar weak smile, her bangs hanging over her dark eyes.
“Well, of course you are, sweetheart,” comes the reply. “And God loves you just the way you are.”
Lindsey will cut herself in the bathroom when she gets back home, inflicting another physical scar for the pain she feels inside and can’t reveal. And then she’ll give her mom and dad a peck on the cheek and lay in bed wishing for sleep, longing for peace.
Terrance skipped church altogether on this Wednesday night and is walking along the trails of the city park a few blocks from his home as the sun slowly dips behind the trees. He collapses on a wooden bench and puts his head in his folded arm, looking every bit the part of a breathless runner who has pushed himself to the limit and needs to rest. He is at his limit. He hates himself because he is not like the other boys at his high school and he doesn’t know why and he’s afraid to ask himself or anyone else. The dark descends like a comfortable blanket, hiding him. He wants to cry.
“If I’m gay, I may as well just kill myself before my Dad does.”
Prayers are wrapping up in the comfy sanctuary. All the pending surgeries have been covered. Missions have been blessed. Traveling mercies extended. All have confessed their weekly falling short, and everyone is ready for a little free time in front of the TV. The DVRs are getting full and need relief.
Elaine and Andy and Lindsey and Terrance are sinners, awash in their own shame, hardened by the indifference of the Christians around them, those who are to be known by their love. All four need surgery. They’re all a mission. They’re traveling . . . and they really need some mercy. Their lives are playing out like the scripted dramas everyone is rushing home to submerge themselves in . . . but they’re real. And they’re Christians . . . and God does indeed love them just as they are. But if He loves them too much to leave them there, why don’t we? If he can acknowledge their sin and respond with His grace, why can’t we? If He can look straight into their hearts, why are we looking over their heads?
Maybe they should come out of their closets? Elaine should just confess that she’s a sad, lonely and empty woman who wants attention so badly she will spin tales for it. Andy should just come clean and tell everyone that instead of having real relationships, he slips himself into naked fantasies, in vulgar opposition to the life he models in his deacon role. Lindsey should explain that she is punishing herself at 17 because at 16 she gave her body away to a 19-year-old who said he loved all of her . . . and then left her to go love all of someone else. And Terrance? Terrance should share about his self-hatred, acknowledge the sense of rejection that triggers his misguided search for his masculine identity through improper same-sex interaction and his concerns about an eroding resistance to temptation.
Unsaved? Not Terrance. Not Lindsey . . . or Andy or Elaine. Precious ones, never alone in their sin, but accompanied by a Savior who knows Elaine could spread blessings instead of gossip, that Andy could live and love in reality, deleting the addictive fantasies that have claimed his mind, that Lindsey could forgive herself and wash away the mistakes of her past, that Terrance could see himself as God sees Him, instead of seeing himself as the broken one with no choice but to submit to the world’s definitions.
Christians all, but guarding secrets in what should be the most loving and healing environment on earth, the church. These four represent so many Christians who struggle in secret with the things of this world, surrounded by people who should be safe and welcoming, known by their love, pouring out forgiveness, willing and able to hear the confessions, extending grace, offering a shoulder for comfort, a hand for support, a word of encouragement and a pledge of accountability through the walk of repentance. While he should be hearing “come on out,” the sinner in the secret closet sees himself more like the spider who tiptoes through the space below the door only to find someone waiting with a broom and a dustpan on the other side.
For most sinners, the fear of what will happen if they emerge from the closet is greater than the fear of the sin locked inside there with them. In my decades-long struggle with homosexuality, habitual cover-up had a greater hold on me in some ways than did my habitual sin. The what-might-happen seemed more threatening than the what-was. I would do almost anything to keep from being discovered . . . and eventually I convinced myself that exposure of my sin would harm more people than the practice of it. Suffering through the struggle in silence was better than the risk of real-time retribution. In time, all of it — the secrecy and the revelation resulted in an avalanche of epic proportions and seemingly uncountable victims. There was no longer enough room in my closet for all the junk I accumulated. It was spilling out the door, leaving a trail of sinful crumbs down the hall.
Maybe we should all come out of our closets? We who accepted the sacrifice of Jesus so we would not die in our sins. We who praise Him for His love and hoard our own, as if He could not provide it amply to extend to others. We who mutter “there but for the grace of God go I” and then stand by and watch others go there. We who crave mercy but are too distracted to share it. We who are so clean, washed as white as snow, startled into silence by the stains of others. Snug in our eternal life, we watch others die around us. We who walk in the light, but quench it in our closets of comfort.
Do we, for some reason, think our callousness about the ravaging toll sin takes on our brothers and sisters somehow shows us to be strong . . . because we are unwavering in our righteousness . . . and our determination to keep our hands clean?
God knows what the Elaines and the Lindseys and the Andys and the Terrances and the Thoms are going through, how they got there, and when and if they are going to get through it and beyond it. And He also already knows how He will use their struggle for His glory and to accomplish His will. Maybe they’re not so happy about the journey on which He has allowed them to embark, but he knows how long the tunnel is and who can help them make it through. He also knows already whether you are going to respond or reject. He knows whether you will venture out of your safe closet to help them clean up theirs.
If “they,” the observant non-believers — whoever they are and we really should want to know — are to know us by our love, then we may never be known. Not if we cannot bring ourselves to embrace the broken ones that Christ has placed within easy reach: the Elaines, Andys, Lindseys and Terrances that pull themselves together enough to come into this place in hope there will be more than peas and prayers.
We can only blame it on culture for so long . . . and then we need to unfold our shoulders and bear the load. We need to stop giving in, declaring hopelessness, wagging our heads with faces curved by condemning grimaces, removing the sins that might taint us by driving the bearer from our midst.
In truth, some Christians do reflect the love of God and display His grace . . . but they need some reinforcements. The ever-increasing wounded who can only be healed through the love of Christ, shared without restraint by the redeemed.
As imperfect as our church may be, these sinners will not find something better beyond our walls. They do not wash away sins “out there,” they celebrate them and proclaim them as identity, taking pride. If we see our brothers sinning, but dismiss even the slightest hint of a true desire to repent and fold our arms in front of us in in defense instead of wrapping our arms around their shoulders, it is we who have surrendered, not they. Will it be warmer out there around the fire of distorted acceptance? Shall we just wish them “god speed,” and give them no reason to even continue to believe there is a God . . . who lives inside us?
Come out of the closet. Andy’s pornography addiction will not defile you when you make a plan to call him up and check on him and set up some time to get together for healthy distraction. Lindsey’s past looseness will not topple you from your purity when you listen to her cry and tell her that not only does God love her, but you do too . . . and that you will stay by her side as she walks out of her past. You will not become gay by standing with Terrance as he searches for the person God created him to be and walk with him through the trials and struggles of seeking wholeness. You won’t lose your reputation by loving Elaine and listening to the truthful needs of her heart as she shifts to sharing blessings. Your love might be one she shares.
Jesus was a gentle savior who reached out his hands to those in pain, who knew the secrets of the strugglers and did not turn away, who stooped down to lift up, who risked his own reputation to help others build a new one. He knew how to love . . . and He told us to be like Him.
We’re so often not. Maybe that’s why we’re in the closet.
In His pain, he freed us all. In our pain, we bind others up in theirs. Unable to share our own failings, we hide them behind our holiness and increase the intensity others feel by comparison. In the light of our inflated righteousness, their wretched sinfulness retains a greater grip on them as they strive to keep it from being seen. In the discomfort of our own cover-ups, we overcompensate in pointing at others when their covers are pulled back. We didn’t want to know . . . but well . . . now that we do . . . we’ve go to do . . . something.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. — Galatians 5:22-23
In our closets, we store the fruit — love, joy, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control — that would nourish the broken souls that wander around the door.
God must surely wonder how we can be so blessed and so bereft of sharing it. The abundance is unimaginable, but we bury it instead of investing it. Do we for some reason believe He can’t handle all of this?
Some of us are in closets of cloistered Christianity. Others of us are in closets of condemnation. Whichever closet you are in, there is no reason to be there. Not with overflowing grace, unlimited forgiveness, boundless mercy, unfathomable love, enduring healing, eternal peace.
Please come out. Someone stands at your door and knocks.
Give Elaine something to really talk about.
God Bless,
Thom Hunter — http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/
Thank you for sharing this with us. Great writing. Great points. Should be an interesting discussion.
Dave,
Thanks for posting the piece. Sorry to be so slow to respond to the comments. We’re traveling through Texas to my wife’s high school reunion way down south and I was away from the computer. I may be off and on, but I’ll be glad to address the comments as I can.
Thom, I hesitate to dangle this carrot in front of you since I’m too tired to give a good accounting of my thoughts and witnessed on my last where i left words out. So without giving someone up by name, homosexuality has evidenced itself in my extended family a number of times. I understand to somev degree “recruitment”. My main question is , “How many and what are the solutions ( solution to me is no more homosexual acts) that gives a person the desire or at least the ability to wein themselves from same sex relationships. I’ve seen people become alcoholics, their family ( real family ) dissolve and seen crashed vehicles that may or may not have been suicide – all maybe because they were dealing with homosexuality. I’ve witnessed some situations where both partners were “genuine” homosexuals – no recruits involved that present a different solution. I’m going to bed even tho your eyes have been glued to the screen for a couple of days waiting for a reply. I’ll see it tomorrow should you reply.
Jack,
Don’t hesitate to dangle a carrot out there. It keeps things moving. And what you’re asking about is extremely important and all too common. It points out the fact that most of likely do have people inour immediate family who struggle with homosexuality or the other things I mentioned in the post. Unfortunately, most people are in the same situation you are: uncertain what to do that might be helpful.
We are playing catch-up as Christians. I don’t know if we might have originally thought the issue would just go away . . . or perhaps the people who struggled would, but that’s not happening. Particularly when the ones who struggle are in our own families.
You’ve broken it down well. First, you have the temptation — the desire to do something sinful, in this case a homosexual act — and then you have the actual doing of it. All of us are tempted to sin and, as Christians, we seek to resist. When we fall, we confess and repent and seek strength from the Lord. However, not that many sins are so linked to supposed identity as is homosexuality. We’ve let culture do that. The Bible does not label men and women as heterosexual or homosexual. It doesn’t paint a picture of a God who says “Hmmmm . . . I think I’ll make this one or that one gay just to add a little spice to humanity.”
If we believe God is indeed our creator, the choiice has been made. Bottom line, homosexuality is a sin, just like stealing or adultery — things people are tempted to do and which bring destruction into their lives and the lives of others.
If a Christian is to resist homosexuality, he or she first needs to accept the truth and realize engaging in homosexual acts is a sin. Then he needs to realize that he is forgiven of that sin, just as you are of any of yours. While is it not always clear, there are usually factors which influence the development of same-sex attraction issues. Not all people can point to something as specific as I could: father abandonment and chilhood sexual abuse. Regardless, the choice to sin or not becomes ours when we become aware that we are sinning.
In my own life, I discovered that there truly is nothing that will keep me from sinning other than a desire to please God and be what He intended me to be. It takes a desire to honor God, and sometimes the desire to please ourselves is overwhelming.
Specifically to your question about weaning onself off of same-sex relationships: you show some insight there that is usually lacking among Christians. It does take some weaning off. Sexual sin involves a repetititive cycle and usually has very definitive triggers that strugglers learn to recognize: rejection, for example. The struggler has to learn to recognize the trigger and have an alernative in place. In other words, he may say, when I feel rejected and want to go to a gay bar or to an old “friend’s” house to find acceptance, I will call my trusted brother instead and we can go have some coffee or something. I need someone to reassure me and help me past this point.
That is lacking. Most strugglers, once they enter a cycle, will follow it through to completion and then enter a phase of declaring “never again.” Eventually, the triggers is pulled and another cycle begins. After a period of life living with the shame and guilt of repetitive sin, the voices that tell you it is not a sin sound awfully good . . . especially in the absence of compassionate voices telling you that, while it is a sin, “I will walk through it with you and I don’t hate you for it. In fact, I love you. I struggle with other sins. Maybe we can help each other.”
The answer is patience and love on he part of Christians, rather than telling someone “you just need to get saved.”
I’m sorry for the loss in your family or circle of people who have fallen for a false idea that they can lead fulfilled lives outside of seekign holiness. As you have see, that pursuit leads to a loss of hope and a path to destruction. Why would we ever want to see that happen under our banner of abomination?
Thom
“He hates himself because he is not like the other boys at his high school and he doesn’t know why and he’s afraid to ask himself or anyone else.”
. . . “and he doesn’t know why . . . ”
I am trying to comprehend how this quote from Thom fits in with people of faith who have been told that homosexual orientation IS A CHOICE.
Thom paints the boy as a confused, frightened kid, who has no one to turn to that he trusts to help him. That phrase ‘and he doesn’t know why’ seems to conflict with the assumption of some Christians that the boy had ‘chosen’ this orientation.
My goodness, could this post be a sign that people are beginning to understand what it must be like for a young person who is undergoing gender identity confusion? If that is so, then something ‘real’ might come of this understanding: if we can see the young man as a child of God, who is suffering, instead of a willful sinner who has ‘chosen’ to be ‘different’ .
Christiane,
I agree with you that people — especially Christians — need to “understand what it must be like for a young person who is undergoing genderidentity confusion.” However, the focus here needs to be on clearing up the young person’s confusion.
If there is ever going to be a place where a young person can know the truth — which can set him free — it is the church. We should not add to the confusion, but indeed speak the absolute truth, but with compassion. We need to recognize with him or her that overcoming is a hard task, but one that is not beyond God’s ability or beyond our senses. It is a very fine line to refuse to reject the young person and still not reflect approvall of the homosexual choice.
I do believe — as one who has had to make it — that homosexuality is a choice, not an identity. Once a struggler realizes it is not “who he is,” but “what he does,” that is the issue, he can better address it. We’ve not been effective as Christians in making that clear. What is resulting is Christians are falling into three camps. One is the “icky camp.” They can’t and won’t go there and Leviticus is embedded in their brains and they take a “get thee behind me” stance. A second is the “affirmative camp.” They ignore the the truths of scripture and consider themselves enlightened, so they take the idea of grace to an “I’m okay; You’re okay level.” And you have a third camp, “the duh camp,” who think ignorance is bliss . . . until their son comes home with a confession and a partner. Then they have no base on which to stand at all and function out of emotion.
The young man does at some point become a willful sinner if he chooses to act on his homosexual temptations. He needs instead to seek wholeness through holiness. To do that, he will need non-judmental, non-condemning, honest Christian friends, pastors and mentors. That’s in short supply and many young Christians hide their sin as long as they can, getting little help.
Hi THOM,
Thank you for explaining your point of view. I appreciate the time you took to do that.
Christiane,
I apologize for the typos here and there. I’m snatching a little free time on the laptop before someone comes along and demands I be more sociable here at the reunion. LOL.
L’s,
I do not think Thom agrees with you. I believe he will tell you that the Sodomite lifestyle is one of “willful” sin just like all other sin is willful caused by the fallen nature of humanity and the propensity toward sinful actions and lifestyles inherent therein.
Hi C.B.
From what Thom has written, how do you think Thom portrays the boy Terrence ?
Christiane,
CB wouldn’t be able to answer that, but I can. I struggled with homosexual temptation as a teenager but did not act on it. I kept it very deeply buried. When I entered a more free environment — the college campus — I found myself adding the agreement of anonymity to my temptation and began to submit to it. I had never discussed it with a pastor or Christian adult because I was too afraid to do so and well aware that I would no longer measure up as a young man in their eyes.
In retrospect, there may have been some very good men in my church who would have been able to walk through this with me, but neither they nor the church had presented any such possibility. I am amazed that, decades later, that vacuum seems still to exist. I have no doub God has equipped some men and women with the wisdom and the love to be both truthful and compassionate . . . but even they are hesitant to do so in the atmosphere of the church.
I think it is beginning to change some. The openness of this forum is evidence of that.
I did not draw Terrance exactly from my life, but I clearly understand him.
I think you are a very honest and brave person, Thom, to share all of this. I’m certain that you are trying to help the Church find a heart for the young who are suffering now.
My own Church has struggled with this and has gone into repentance for its own failure to respond sooner. Perhaps you are familiar with the document ‘Always Our Children’ by the USCCB ? What is shared, is the recognition for the need of the Church to be pro-active in ministry, although there are differences of course.
Here is a site that explains some of what has happened in my Church’s ‘evolution’ of understanding and response. Through compassion and mercy, God awakens us to care for the suffering of our children and their families:
http://www.nccbuscc.org/laity/always.shtml
Whatever our differences in how we see the problem or the solution, Thom, I know that the first step is to reach out, as a Christian community, in compassion, for the suffering of young people in need of care. I think you understand that ‘first step’ and I thank you for directing people towards that Christian effort.
Thom,
I did answer. But I apologize. I had interpreted the word “portray” to mean how you wrote about him from a ministry perspective. That was the basis of my answer.
I completely understand. No apology needed at all. I meant to portray Terrance as a young man at a crucial point in life . . . with the potential to make a very devastating and desructive choice if someone who loves him does not intervene in a way he can trust. I wish there were not so many Terrances in his exact position within our churches today.
L’s,
You may believe me or not, but my position is almost lock-step with Thom’s response to you posted at 11:26 a.m.
Sinners need help from other sinners who have already been helped by the Great Physician.
L’s,
My basic definition of ministry is: That of a no longer hungry beggar telling another hungry where the Bread of Life is to be found and letting him know that his hunger will continue unless he also finds the exact same Bread of Life.
L’s, adhering to a biblically based Christianity is not one of a hatred toward fallen, sinful people. It is simply being biblical in all applications of faith and ministry.
Why you cannot see that, I do not understand.
L’s,
That should have been: “another hungry ‘beggar'”
Sorry if there was confusion due to my constant failure to put all the words in print as I think and write. Age, I guess. 🙂
CB,
Indeed, in my own life, the most effective ministry from Christians has been from the humble, those who did no come from the perspective of trying to help me be as good as they are, but assuring me that they are no better . . . but serve a loving Christ who is big enough to heal us both. They come from a position of experiencing grace and a desire to share it.
Hi C.B. I have the same problem with age. 🙂
I have never doubted that you genuinely care for helping sinners. I have doubted that you are an honest person in your ministry to others.
You ask why I might fail to understand you. I thought about that. I will think about it some more.
YOIKS !!!!!
correction! should be ‘I have never doubted that you are an honest person’
L’s,
That statement was right the first time from my perspective. For I have had doubts as to my honesty and my motivations on may occasion.
But, I thank you for you quick correction. 🙂
cb–
A starving beggar need no one to force him to find bread!!!
Your sense of force and judgement defeats the beauty of the illustration!
Gene,
You have no concept of ministry. That is why churches fired you and why NC churches avoid you now.
Gene, you certainly belong among the trees. Stay there.
Thom—
That was one of the most insightful things I have ever read!!!
It underlines the favorite pastime of Baptists: Confessing the sins of others!
It clearly spotlights why many churches are nothing more than a “glorified social club.”
It certainly describes my greatest disappointment upon moving from Seminary with a Psychology / counseling / theological training without blemish—only to find a bunch of church members wanting to be stroked with the own prejudices / seldom confronted with the real ministry of Jesus in the Gospels / wanting to think the Bible and old time religion was “far away and long, long ago!”
Rod Serling was a master of surprise endings and strange stories—what you have described is far too real—and the most strange story of all: How a loving and forgiving Saviour could end up with a bunch of building / organ-worshiping followers in our day who only want to gossip and “confess the sins of others!!!!”
Great take. It could only come from a person of faith struggling to be authentic in the same real world I faced in 1970 upon becoming a “professional minister.”
Isn’t it strange that a person is more accepted and loved in a local bar than at a church?
Isn’t it strange how your hairdresser or barber knows far more about you than your minister who only sees your pretense?
Isn’t it strange how the barber shouts out, “Glad to see you Reverend!” as you enter the shop which, a moment before, had a good joke with a naughty touch circulating, but it’s too lewd for the Preacher to hear????
Gene,
We definitely need some better pasttimes. However, one thing that seems clear to me, despite my painful interactions with churches in the past, is that the church is one of the greatest hopes remaining for helping people find themselves and restoration.
I actually love the church for what it could do and am very forgiving about what it has done. Not a perfect institution at all, but some of the people in the church are loving and kind and gentle and patient — fruitful. Sometimes we substitute confrontation for courage. It can be easy for some to confront another’s sin, but it takes a lot of courage to help them conquer it.
Wouldn’t it be something if we, as repentant sinners, had experienced so much love from our church during our period of repentance, that we were overwhelmed with a desire to share Christ with the hairdresser or barber and invite them to our churches?
Christ clearly showed how we are to treat sinners. I’ve been blessed to know many of them . . . and I think when we love them as He did, we will know more and more of them and we see His will accomplished in their lives.
Thom—
I totally agree with you! The shame is that the real source of direction and love is too often thwarted from its mission by the devils of social prominence / judgementalism / gossip disguised as “prayer needs” / people who are pretending over being the “real deal” in life and faith.
“”judgementalism””
Gene, I’m just wondering: do you see yourself at all as just as judgmental as those you condemn?
Many bloggers criticize behavior in others that they justify in themselves. Its pretty common.
Well said Thom.
Thom,
Thank you for this important food for thought.
Gene in 8, No it’s not strange, “that a person is more accepted and loved in a local bar than in a church”. After all , alcohol is sometimes referred to as “liquid pants remover”. There are hustlers in church as well. I had a deacon who for some reason told me he was meeting in a substance abuse class to meet women. There was a Bible study on the same night. And this was an old whatever.
Now, that’s a good one—and totally credible!!!!
Thom, your end statement is off as I haven’t lost anyone “in my circle of friends”. Other than that Your solution seems to follow procedures used in other abuses but I appreciate your insight. Sounds like a person such as your self woud be the best councilor in these conditions.
Jack,
Sorry about that. I was thinking that perhaps some of the people that had possibly committed suicide were people you actually knew. If only people knew that the hopelessness is temporary.
Hi THOM,
I wonder if the ‘vocabulary’ of the Church in relating to this issue makes a difference. I think it must.
What are your thoughts?
Do some phrases people use ‘slam the door’ too hard on others ?
It seems to me that some of the vocabulary used is more ‘homophobic’ in nature, than ‘Christian’ in tone. For someone in trouble, certain phrases and words may come at them with the force of stones.
Christiane,
Vocabulary is a real problem from both positions. I find myself hindered by it all the time. “Gay” people get upset when I use terms like “struggle,” and “sexual brokenness,” for instance. And people who struggle usually find the “love the sinner; hate the sin” as harsh, while most Christians think that’s pretty compassionate. Everyone comes from their own mindset. For instance, if you are gay-identified in your mind and someone says “love the sinner; hate the sin,” you see them as hating you because you are identfied as your sin. It’s confusing.
Being truthful is the most compassionate thing we can do and it is not homophobic. Done properly, it can resonate with Christians who struggle. It’s not that difficult to tell someone what you believe and why and do so in a loving way. We just tiptoe around it and our words get in the way. We can come off as self-righteous or as wishy-washy when we try to hard to get it right. We just need to use scripture correctly and in context: sin and grace. We need to drop the “we all sin . . . but yours is worse than mine” aproach. But we do need to be very clear that habititual, willing, repetitive sin calls salvation into question.
But we do need to be very clear that habititual, willing, repetitive sin calls salvation into question.
Someone ought to take that and bronze it because it is so true. Anyone who can cheat on their taxes, engage in homosexual activity, cheat on their wife, shoplift, as a pattern of how they live their life may not have proven that they’re not a Christian, but they’ve definitely given others a good reason to question whether they’re saved or not.
“Everyone comes from their own mindset.”
I know this.
We use the terms ‘disorder’, in my Church, and that is not well-received by all.
It is not meant to be inflammatory.
I wish we could trade our mind-sets for the Mind of Christ in this matter. I think we can do this, but we must come to be, as you have described here:
“Indeed, in my own life, the most effective ministry from Christians has been from the humble, those who did no come from the perspective of trying to help me be as good as they are, but assuring me that they are no better . . . but serve a loving Christ who is big enough to heal us both. They come from a position of experiencing grace and a desire to share it.”
L’s–
It reminds me of the Senior Minister I accompanied to “win” 2 boys to Christ. He asked them questions which required a definite “right” answer. Then he directed them to tell their parents, “I have been saved!”
It was obvious to me they had no idea of what they were really saying other than to please this man “winning them to Christ.”
What a bunch of hooie. It led me to use Romans 10:9 = “believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord.”
When I talked with children, I reminded them of how they love their mother and father in their hearts, but it is never quite complete until they put their arms around their neck and tell them “I love you!”
The act of trusting in Christ is just that simple. It’s not the “right” answers to a question where the “right” answer is obvious to a child. It’s talking to them on their level to see something the Bible simply teaches! Many a young child left my converstaion (my own daughter & son are 2) clearly understanding what Romans 10:9 is all about.
Forget the “Roman Road” or “Evangelism Explosion” sales track—just talk with people about what God has done for you in Christ Jesus’ payment for our sin. If you have no witness of your own, you have little to share with people searching for the “joy of salvation” and a “peace that passes understanding!”
It seems to me that some of the vocabulary used is more ‘homophobic’ in nature, than ‘Christian’ in tone.
Example of homophonic phrases per L’s:
“Homosexuality is a sin but Jesus will forgive any sin if a person repents and trusts Him.”
“All sexual activity outside of marriage between one man and one woman is always sinful but God gladly forgives those who repent of their sin on account of Christ’s death on the cross.”
“What Paul said in the epistles is as authoritative as anything recorded in the gospels. His words carry the same authority as the words of Christ in the gospels.”
Examples of Christian statements according to L’s:
“God made you that way. It can’t be a sin.”
“Paul was just stating his opinion. Jesus never spoke about homosexuality.”
“If you’re sincere enough, God just has to accept you. He just has to.”
Sound about right, L’s?
JOE, you’re out of line.
You can’t make up quotes and assign them to me.
Bad form, Joe Blackmon. Shape up.
I said Examples not quotes. I wasn’t and don’t suggest that you’ve said those. I was mocking what you believe about homosexuality–that it’s not a sin–not quoting you.
When I quote folks I use italics
Thom, I don’t want to hijack this blog but if it gets slow I’d like to know your feelings, if any, about Richard Land’s opposition to the Federal Hate Crime legislation which is now Law and involves homosexuality among other things.
Jack,
I wish I was a greater expert on the Hate Crime Legislation and exactly what the long-range intent is of the authors. Unfortunately, legislation like this lends itself to a lot interpretation and expansion as time goes by. My concern about the legislation is that it could be interpreted in such a way that it could limit the ability to speak truthfully about homosexuality. If we, as Christians, believe and share what the Bible says — that homosexuality is a sin — and the federal government declares that sharing that truth is “hate,” then we have a major disconnect. We would consider it a loving act — and indeed a required one — to warn a sinner about the destructiveness of his sin . . . and to share with him the truth that Christ provides a way out. To us, that is a message of love. To some interpreters of the hate crimes legislation, it would be considered hate . . . and, if fully applied, could muzzle the pulpit.
Some pastors and others in the church have sounded a bit hateful, but that is usually a reflection of ignorance and fear and over-zealous concern about protecting the flock. We don’t need to muzzle; we need to teach.
I think Hate Crimes legislation has the potential to be very dangerous for those who truly want to share love.
What do you think?
My concern about the legislation is that it could be interpreted in such a way that it could limit the ability to speak truthfully about homosexuality
Thom
I believe that this was the purpose behind the legislation–to pave the way for Christians to be silenced about sharing any biblical truth.
Further, the law was totally unnecessary. There have been crimes commited againt homosexuals. Those who commited those crimes should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. What happened to Matthew Shepherd was horrific and those who did that should face the stiffest penalty possible, not because he was gay, but because of the brutality of the crime.
How does anyone support a law that has now made the THOUGHT behind a crime criminal?
Cue L’s pedantic response in 3…2….
LOL
O.K. Bess, I’ll bite. What are you talking about ? While I’m waiting for Thom to answer .
Jack, what makes a hate crime a hate crime and not just a regular old fashioned crime?
I believe part of the idea behind the Hate Crimes Legislation was to define hate as a motivator for a crime, which, in my mind, puts it with greed, etc. We already know that hate is wrong, such as greeed, lust, coveting, etc. is wrong. All problems of the heart.
I think the legislators thought they might be able to discourage hate by making it a crime, or by making it a factor by which they could raise the severity of the punishment. Crime is still crime. Consequences are still consequences. Hate is still hate.
Truth is not hate . . . although it is occasionally felt to be so because of the way it is delivered. Granted, we do not always agree about what is true; that’s why we need the Bible as our guide.
I typed am immediate response which didn’t go thru. Your trying to answer a question with a question which isn’t kosher;but, I’ll look at your question while you tell me what you’re talking about.
Bess, Not a good question of yours. It should be , “what make a crime of hate a Federal Hate Crime?
Ok jack, what makes a crime of “hate” a federal hate crime?
Thom, I heard you. Thank you .
So “hate” now is a crime. It’s not necessary to act on the “hate” because the hate crimes laws determine that the hate is part of the crime therefore the precedent is set that hate alone is now a crime.
And understand punishing “hate” is punishing thoughts. Slippery slippery slopes.
Lets quit fencing. Federal Hate Crime Laws were necessary because there were too many occasions where for reasons like ,”we don’t have the money., or we don’t have enough investigators” that hate Crimes were not be prosecuted by local governments. A Hate Crime can be two juveniles who burn a CROSS ON SOMEONES YARD and happen to be well connected. Bingo, They get charged in Federal Court. Since the Legislation passed into Law there have been multiple prosecutions and convictions which should please everyone. Are you pleased ? No one has been charged with a thought.as far as I know , only an action. Explain your question please.
OK Jack, here ya go – two murders, one murder a man is murdered because he’s gay and the other murder happens because the man has red hair and the murderer hates red hair. Why is the gay murder worse? Why does the gay man deserve more justice?
Give me a break. A crime is a crime. If someone commits a crime you prosecute that crime no matter who commited it. Federal hate crime legislation was necessary to shut Christians up. That was the purpose of it–to pave the road to imprison Christians for calling sin what the Bible calls sin.
Bess, I just read your answer and the Law is much simpler than your answer. It even includes protections for pastors and other that preach against homosexuality in church from any resulting trouble outside the church. Like demonstrations.
Jack, laws are never simple and lawyers stay in business by exploiting ambiguities. If one part of the law makes thoughts crimes then a courts can make the exemptions meaningless.
Bess on 54, Gay man doesn’t deserve more justice , just justice and he wasn’t getting it which lets bums that do this stuff think they can get away with it. Leave the goofy question of why someone murders because he hates red hair to the lawyers.
He wasn’t getting it?? No one was prosecuted from murdering gay people?? I bet if they have a name for what’s wrong with you it’s really difficult to spell.
Jack so you honestly believe gay people have been murdered and their have been no prosecutions against murder of gay people. You’re saying the laws already in the books are not being enforced? Seriously?
And you don’t answer the question of why a crime against a gay person is worse than the straight man. There are laws against crimes. Why not just enforce those laws for everyone? Why do gay people need “special” justice?
No Jack, it’s not a goofy question. Why is the murder of a gay man worse than the murder of a straight man?
Bess, Have you read the Law ? Ihave while it was moving along the process and when it was finished. If I can understand it , it’s simple. The basis for your argument about thoughts being crimes is bogus – in my humble opinion. But I appreciate your interaction which make me appreciate more the work done by Congress to plug these holes.
Yes I have read the law and discussed it with a lawyer friend along with a sitting judge on the 8th circuit but Jack since your an expert on the law please answer the original very simple question which you have yet to answer. Here it is again:
What makes a hate crime a hate crime and not just a regular old fashioned crime?
Bess, That they’re have been some prosecutions of crimes against gay people doesn’t cut it. Every vile crime of this nature needs to be prosecuted. I’d rather listen to the other people noe on this blog.
There are already laws to prosecute vile crimes. What makes the hate crime law different than the laws already on the books?
I think the discussion kind of makes Thom’s point. If I understand him rightly, he is saying that homosexuality is a sin, but so is gossip, so is anger, hatred, lust, etc.
His point is that we should regard homosexuality as a sin, but not treat those who struggle with this sin differently than we treat others.
I appreciate Thom’s point. I think it has biblical support.
But there has been very little discussion of his point. I’d love to see some discussion of why we treat homosexuality differently than we do other sins.
I apologize for hijacking this thread. Thom has an incredible testimony to share. He’s been very brave and I applaud his willingness to be so open and candid.
I think the hate crimes legislation is important to discuss because I think there are very well intentioned people who haven’t thought out the full ramifications. Perhaps my few posts here will give some food for thought.
Dave–
I see it the same way = homosexuality is sin according to the OT and some of the NT.
It appears to me that Jesus said NOTHING one way or the other–even though it existed in his day.
I believe that the Gospels give ultimate guidance over anything else in our Canon—put together by the early Church Council by their guides = written by an Apostle / consistent with the Apostles Creed / accepted by the majority of established churches of the day who sent delegates to the Church Council.
Sounds kind of Baptist to me!!!! Majority votes win.
You’re an idiot, Gene. Pretend christians like you always thump the “Jesus never said anything” card. Guess you need to go read John 21:25, huh? Oh wait, I bet that part of the Bible isn’t God’s word, right?
Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that there are numerous logical reasons that explain why we Christ might have said nothing. Further, all Christians recognize that the words of Paul have equal authority to the words of Jesus because they were not Paul’s words–they were God’s words.
John 21:25–Now, there are many other things that Jesus did. If they were all sritten down one by one, I suppose that the whole world could not hold the books that would be written. (TEV)
Jesus did—or Jesus said???
If he said it, I would have no problems—and I don’t think something this important would have been omitted.
Paul said and his words are as authoritative as anything else in the Bible. All Christians recognize that so of course you would not agree with it.
Joe—
Paul was almost as arrogant as you—but you still set the record for arrogance.
I’m trying to give you a break and encourage you to go outside and smell the wonderful Fall air with lovely leaves attached, but you will not!!!!
There’s some Bible in here—but you will not!!!!!!
Gene: Christ’s words and Paul’s words are equally inspired, equally of God and Paul was anything but arrogant if you read his words. Paul is one of my favorite authors of scripture if you can have one and all scripture, every jot and tittle, is inspired and give to us by God himself.
So—are you saying the “Son of God” is equal to one of the followers who was a Zealot / struck down on the Damascas Road by God / and admitted to being one of the worst of sinners?????
I beg to differ on that one!!!
Hey Gene I don’t know if anyone’s ever explained this to you but Jesus didn’t actually right all those red letters in your Bible. God inspired men to write the Gospels just the same as He inspired Paul and others to write the Epistles.
I give you credit for using the word “inspired.”
I don’t give you credit for not acknowledging the history of the Canon being the result of many “writings” (graphe), some of which did not make the cut, but have later been found to shed light on the puzzling situation at the time of confusion and compilation of the Canon.
“All scripture” includes far more than you know, unless you have studied the Apochapha / Pseudepigripha / Gnostic Gospels—and who know what else might be found in years to come. It is far more complex than you know!
With Jesus and the Gospels we have 4 witnesses to what he said and did. With the other NT writings we have instructions as to how the errant churches should get back on target following the Christ of their belief.
Sadly, too many–just as today–were going way off target in their daily practices of love / forgiveness / following the way of Jesus over the ego trips of the Disciples and other later church leaders.
Never forget the account of Jesus calling for children to sit on his knee when the Disciples were fussing and fighting over who would sit on Jesus’ right and left. From the beginning of discipleship there has been a war with the egos of His followers = “He who wants to be great must be the servant of all.”
Gene: I am saying that Paul’s words have equal authority as Christ’s and I am well aware of how we got our Bible. It makes the stance of Paul’s words equal to Christ’s even stronger a case. Again Gene, all scripture is given by God. All of it. Even Paul’s written words.
Yes Gene I have actually studied how we got our Scripture. It’s been a while but I belive the Canon was and is rightly closed. Those that didn’t get included do not get the label inspired as does Paul’s writings or those of the Gospels. I really don’t think God meant for us to pick and choose which parts of His words we like and discard those we think are not PC. Sorry but I don’t want a God who didn’t have the ability to see that His words were protected and passed down through the ages. I don’t want to trust in men like Dan Brown to explain away parts of God’s Word in some convoluted conspiracy theories.
All right, ladies—so explain to me when Paul’s words put down women to always be submissive and Jesus’ shows a high honor to women—what is your call????
Is it Jesus’ way or Paul’s way? It certainly can’t be both.
You just explain it to me knowing the story of Bible formation, if you please.
Gene, that’s a topic on another thread.
That idea, Gene, that the gospels supercede the other biblical revelation is a serious error, in my mind. All scripture is inspired.
The same Jesus who SPOKE the words of the gospels, BREATHED the words of the Epistles.
To say that Jesus’ words have priority over the words of Paul or Peter is to deny an important element of the doctrine of inspiration.
At the risk of having to rebuke myself – this is why the doctrine of inerrancy matters. When you abandon a high view of scripture, you end up picking and choosing which scriptures you like better or give higher priority to.
All scripture is God-breathed. Moses’ words. Jesus’ words. Paul’s words. They were spoken by different men (or by the Savior) but all were inspired by the same Spirit and share the same authority and power.
Dave, please take the inerrancy debate back to the inerrancy playground, please.
Thank you,
The Editor!
Now THAT’S EDITING ! very impressive 🙂
Editor, lay off Dave. He was making a point that, while not directly part of the post, was necessary to rebute a completely heretical comment by this blog’s resident Village Idiot. I appreciate him interjecting the point.
🙂
JOE, quit bullying the editor ! He’s got a job to do. 🙂
Amen!
Amen. All scripture is given by God and is profitable. Good explanation Dave.
This section of commenting on the Canon is a CR veteran’s dream come true.
Debbie, L’s, Joe, Lydia, Dave and all others,
Gene Scarborough is giving you firsthand evidence as to why the CR was necessary. Why?
Because what Gene is saying about part of the Scripture having “rank” above other parts is exactly what he was taught at SEBTS before the CR.
Gene is just one of a great number of poorly educated men who went into Southern Baptist churches and to the mission field with such a weakened opinion of the Word of God.
CB, it’s worse than Scripture having rank. He seems to be advocating that the writings rejected for the Canon and even writings yet to be found are as valid as those in the accepted canon.
Bess,
I know. Bess, I posted his whole diatribe on the correct thread. Go there. Leave this post to Thom. His subject matter is very important.
Take Gene home where he belongs–as Best Evidence for the need of the CR
AGAIN I have to apologize for hijacking Thom!!!
CB: I have never denied that the CR had to take place. What I disagreed with and still do was the methods used.
I humbly bow to the CR experts on Scripture.
If it makes you happy = go for it!
If it makes you look stupid, then that’s the way it is!!!!
Now—I BELIEVE!!!
cb and Joe have finally convinced me. I’ll have the priviledge of spending eternity in hell with them by my side!!! What a wonderful thought!!!!!
I BELIEVE!!!!
Bess—
I’m just telling you what “graphe” really means in the Greek.
I have no problem with what was accepted into the Canon. I do have a problem pretending God just set the wrighters on a stump and dictated it all to them = DIDN’T HAPPEN!!!
Sorry, Dave—I don’t have your problem—especially with the horrible destruction of enemies in the OT as opposed to Jesus saying, “Love your enemies . . .”
That’s why we call it the NEW Testament which should supercede the OLD Testament as the “full revelation of God in his Son, Jesus.”
Sorry, Dave—I don’t have your problem
Pride goes before destruction so please Gene, by all means, go ahead and continue to be prideful.
Joe, the blow—
Why don’t you enjoy the beautiful afternoon????
Your spirit of derision is spoiling the beauty of what God has given us today—unless you have thunder and lightening over your head today!!!
We treat homosexuality differently I think because it’s a sin not all of us or many us are tempted by. It’s easy to look down your nose at someone when you yourself don’t understand why anyone could be struggling when you yourself don’t struggle.
Thanks Dave , I didn’t understand where he (Thom) was going and tried to comment on the other. For me this takes thought.
I’ve read Dave’s summation and will go back to yours in a mi nute. We ALL belong in the same courtroom with the same judges etc. The problem was that all the crimes wern’t getting to court and those that did were a sham in that obviously guilty people were going free – and these things are crimes.
Exactly Jack! Everybody should be in the same courts with the same laws with the same consequences. Hate crime laws make for different laws, different courts (ie federal v. State courts) and different consequences.
Thom, Sometimes if I have a problem I try to think of a solution and then try to see if I can justify my thoughts in scripture. Someone with a better working knowledge after identifying the problem would go straight to the correct scriptures and if lucky the solution jumps out. Degree of sin is out of my realm , so maybe I better go back like I said and read you again. But for now it sound like you feel discrimination and to some degree you are. We have found some solutions for other discrimination; How do we solve discriminations whatever they are, against homosexuals? Long time to say nothing.
Thom, I haven’t given up but I’ve got to get out since it’s Friday. Later.
Just a thought:
People ‘assume’ that words have no force to kill. They can’t see, or won’t see the connections. There is a way we can learn from the past.
Holocaust survivors are still living. And among them are some who will come and speak to groups. They have much wisdom to share with those of our time. I would encourage Christian communities to invite one of these speakers to come and address their young people.
My daughter was taught French in Catholic prep school by Maria Breitinger, a Holocaust survivor. I am very grateful that my daughter had this opportunity to study with ‘Madame B’, as she was known. In her language classes, Mrs. Breitinger at times, shared about what can (and did) happen when a society forgets to honor ‘the dignity of the human person’. Mrs. Breitinger sadly has passed away, but her legacy to her students is a gift of understanding that I wish other young people could share.
Saying “The Bible calls [insert sin] here a sin, but God can and will forgive a sinner who repents and trusts Christ” is not devalueing or failing to recognize the dignity of a person. It is telling them the truth. Telling someone that if they live a life of unrepentant sin, regardless of what that sin is, that they may be demonstrating that they’re not really saved in the first place is not failing to recognize the dignity of a person.
The fact is, you want Christians to shut their pie holes about homosexuality being a sin.
Joe—
I was starting to agree with you until— you did the “shut their pie holes” thing.
It’s a shame!!!!!
I think Bess is calling the 8th Circuit for an answer.
Well Jack, that’d be one more answer than you were capable of giving wouldn’t it ya legal scholar you!
Bye Bye Bess, But before you go the scriptures they haven’t found yet are the ones I rank the best.
Hey Jack did I miss where you explain why the murder of a gay man is worse than the murder of a straight man. Why the punishment for the murder of a gay man is worse than the punishment for that of a straight man?
Or back to the original question How does anyone support a law that makes the THOUGHTS behind a crime now crimes?
Thom, Nobody else will tell you, but I will. This past diatribe has been a test which if you had chimed in and tried to make sense of it would have caused your Gbol to self destruct.
We didn’t ‘hijack’, we walked away from the topic of the post in our discomfort, I’m afraid. It is a painful difficult topic. So we wandered away from it, didn’t we? Pretty obvious to me, why we did. All the more reason to return to the subject of the post, being honestly aware of our own discomfort, as a motivation.
Bess said something interesting in Comment 96:
“We treat homosexuality differently I think because it’s a sin not all of us or many us are tempted by. It’s easy to look down your nose at someone when you yourself don’t understand why anyone could be struggling when you yourself don’t struggle.”
I’ve been thinking that we too often see the ‘label’ and not the ‘person’ who is more like us than not like us. Maybe that is a big part of our problem. We can diss the ‘label’, but not so easy to diss the pain of a family whose teenager has committed suicide in despair over gender-identity confusion. And WE flinch because WE’RE not comfortable ? Ah, that won’t do. Christians are being called to do much better than that.
I think that way too many Christians spend their time worrying about the splinters in everyone else’s eyes to avoid the very painful difficult work of dealing with the logs in our own eyes. Focusing on homosexuals is easy I think because many in a tight knit Christian community are isolated and don’t know the “others” (or don’t know that know them). So it’s a sin that they feel safe in raising up to villify.
Indeed we are . . . and, as a rule, we’re failing miserably at it.
“And God created am insane assylum on the planet earth—and named it “Baptist Church!”
Sorry, Thom, you have a good topic and these crazies are taking it for a wild rabbit chase.
Now, why don’t we get back on topic for a change, folks.
Welcome back Bess. I missed you. A lot.
With such charming company Jack how could I stay away?
I’m missing Thom also but just the normal amount.
As to the topic at hand…..I think another reason people in general vilify the gay issue more is because it seems as it’s being “forced” on us all over the place. You’re either tolerant are you’re intolerant homophobe…. There is no discussion in the public that says “no I’m not homophobic but as a Christian I believe this practice to go against God’s Word.”. There is no place that the Christian view is respected in the public domain.
Bess,
That really is what I am trying to accomplish, but I admit I’m not finding a lot of open doors or open minds or open hearts. Sometimes I wonder if it just seems to tough to take on for Christians. We’ve ceded our responsibility and settle for just taking a side here and there when forced by some public issue.
Thom—
I think the real problem is ignorance and fear combined to stick people in concrete shoes on this.
It is so much easier to condemn homosexuals and turn them out than to admit it is possible they are creatures created in the image of God just like heterosexuals.
I think people know in their hearts when they have their sexual identity together. A heterosexual preditor is no different than a homosexual one = lusts control them.
Another part of this is the fear many people have that they “just might be one.” If you are afraid of yourself, you certainly have no comfort with someone who reminds you too much of your own hidden self you don’t like!
One thing is clear: In every culture there are those whose gender is not clear and every culture tries to handle that aspect of our humanity. In some cultures there is not the stigma we put on it in a Judeo-Christian culture.
I believe it to be both a nature and nurture issue = some can be born with chemicals of sex not identical to the physical characteristics of their body / a child reared by a same-sex parent has little example in the home of an opposite-sex person (he tends to memic that which raised him).
In a culture with a 50% divorce rate, is it any surprise gender issues are as prominent as they are today???
Bess–
The real problem we have in American Society is how we are supposed to be a melting pot of culture and freedom. We have never declared ourselves to be a “Christian” society / a “Jewish” society / a “Mormon” society, etc.
Individual religiously based communities have done such with impunity: David Koresh / militia white supremicists / Charles Manson / etc. Seldom does our government attack such because of the principle of freedom. Most have ended up a collosal failure.
I know–first hand–of how it is offensive to have something like race (or homosexuality) pushed down our throat by government. On the other hand, when this good old southern boy started talking with black ministers associated with the HMB during integration, their view of how it felt to sit on the back of the bus or drink from the “colored” water fountain, I gained a new perspective on how they were right and I was wrong!
I was taught not to be racist by my parents, but I quietly turned my head when racist things were applied in and around Atlanta—quietly—ever so quietly—to the point it was not an offense to whites. I was “just one of the things we do in good southern society.”
Conserving the past could just be another way of promoting a prejudice that “we are better than you.” None of us is better in the eyes of God who created us male and female—and (possibly) in between???
For this reason God gave them over to egrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. Romans 1:26-27 (NASB)
These are not Paul’s words, but God’s words through Paul. They have just as much authority as the gospels. Therefore, even if (and He did NOT but just for the sake of argument) God created people born homosexuals (which He did NOT) it would still be a sin becaue GOD SAID SO in Romans 1.
All Christians recognize that. Deal with it.
Thom, We couldn’t joke around if you wern’t an educated fellow. But Christianne is right to some extent in that it does brake things up a bit in a long day. I’ve had serious discussions with gays that many probably have not had , but as I’ve already spoken and you’ve answered, the solutions for either side take planning.
In my experience, when it comes to churches–whether it’s the sexual issues, the gossip, anger, pride, whatever–a lot of the problem is we a) don’t take our sin seriously or b) don’t want to deal with it.
On the one hand we tend to celebrate the fact “we’re all sinners” sometimes it seems to a giddy excess where we over hype a twisted grace (as if grace simply meets us where we’re at and doesn’t move us closer to Christ). We might not blatantly celebrate the sin, but neither do we “mourn and weep” (James 4:8-10).
On the other hand we might recognize the danger and damage of sin, but it’s easier to simply attempt to sweep it under the rug and forget about it. Or we don’t touch it out of fear of being called judgmental and unloving. Or we don’t touch it out of fear of having our own sins exposed.
And with sexual sin we do tend to be a little more harsh…despite the fact, Romans 1:26-32, as far as sin goes God puts sexual sin on the same plane as gossip, covetousness, and being disobedience to parents; or perhaps the other way around: God puts gossiping, etc. on the same plane as sexual sin.
I think part of it is we’ve redefined “love” basically as accepting someone as they are without condition. I once heard a preacher say it well: the guy at the drive-thru will accept you the way you are, because he’s just trying to sell something to you and doesn’t care about you. A friend, however, will challenge you to be more like Jesus.
Certainly there is acceptance in love, but love also refuses to rejoice with wrong-doing but rejoices with the truth (1 Corinthians 13). Love confronts sin. After all, the wages of sin is death; the judgment of sin is hell…what kind of love is it to leave sin unchallenged? Of course, love doesn’t confront to drive away, it confronts to bring a person to turn from their sin and turn back to Jesus. And when a firm rebuke is needed, love provides just that; and when tears are needed, then love weeps.
I think that’s the point of Matthew 18–we mistakenly, in my opinion, call the entire process “church discipline” but discipline is that last step when all else has failed. The first steps of going to a brother or sister one-on-one, then in a small group, and then as a church…that is all an attempt of loving restoration; to show the person what they have in Jesus and plead with them to confess and repent.
Simple truth: we don’t do enough to hold each other accountable, to draw each other out, to be honest with our struggles, and to confess our sins to one another so we can pray for each other and be healed. After all, it’s too messy to get involved in other people’s sins and it’s too humbling and embarrassing to confess our own.
But then again with as much as the Bible talks about edifying each other, confessing our sins to one another, holding each other accountable, and truly loving… when we don’t do these things we’re living in yet another kind of disobedience and sin.
We really need to toss out our fears and excuses, repent of our accountability failures, and start living in obedience to the words our Father has given us. Then we sit down with each other, confess, pray, and keep each other accountable… after all my pride and harsh words are just as much of an offense to God’s holiness and just as much a sin worthy of death and hell as is someone else’s addition to porn…
Mike–
That is one of the most circumspect observations I have seen in a long while—especially on these SBC blogs.
It points out the need to help one another with love over simply judging one another. It may come from our frontier heritage which is no longer necessary just for community civility.
Before there were laws / judges / juries / law enforcement, there was a frontier church which kept people socially in line. I have served several historic Baptist curches which fulfilled that role.
The most interesting thing about that era was how mostly Baptist / Methodist / Presbyterian folks were convinced anyone but them was going to hell for their theology not being perfect enough.
In matters of faith, there is no absolute beyond you must “believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Christ.” In matters of civility I Corinthians 13 gives us a clear absolute that “I am nothing if I have no love.” It comes in a confessional way from Paul–a very judgemental person who started his religion hunting out followers of Christ for stoning!
One of my Lenten reflections pertains to this post. I’d like to share it in hopes that it helps others to help others. 🙂
http://www.msgr.ca/msgr/body_broken%2000.htm
Atlanta mega church, “Church In The Now.” comes out of the closet:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/mega-church-pastor-jim-swilley-gay-12024731
The one thing that has not been discussed in this column or at least that I observed in my speed reading of it was the use of violence or the threat of it by homosexuals to achieve their objectives. In high school about 54 years ago, a homosexual sought to bother a friend and myself in a class. He wanted to play with our legs. We told him to stop, he continued to bother us. Finally, we threatened him with violence, if he did not cease and desist. His response was, “I will meet you in the park with my gang.” The difference between that fellow and us was in this: We just wanted to be left alone. Our threat of violence seem to be the only course, but his threat of violence was absolutely serious. Before we graduated from high school, he beat an old man to death on the street with his fists. The last time I saw the fellow he was out on bail, awaiting trial for murder. I know of other stories and examples from life along that line. Social pressure and threats of violence and intimidation can work to establish a way of life that our children and/or grandchildren will find utterly unbearable. The end of society as we know it could well be the result. If nothing else, the rise of the secular view of the state and church has already begun to prove that those who follow the atheistic and/or agnostic views can make life unbearable for believers. One man’s complaint led to the firing of a lady from her job in a hospital. She is a member of the church that I attend. And yet I live just a 55 minute drive from a battlefield where one of my ancestors fought in the American Revolution for Religious Liberty among other freedoms. Now I am living to see those freedoms being daily eroded and removed under the guise of political correctness. Soon, we might well find, as one religious person threatened over 20 years ago, “”We are going to ship all of you Bible believing people off to an insane asylum.” People who never read outside of the box are in for a terrible shock, when things take a terrible turn for the worse.
Dr. Willingham, My relatives and yours are still fighting to preserve those same freedoms but the Battle Lines and Flags and Names of the enemy are not always cleary marked. Not many are against believing in the Bible and calling the homosexual lifestyle a sin. But today, right this minute there are groups that have joined our Conservative Bible Believing groups that are trying to grow themselves in numbers and voices who are “White Supremecists”, “KKK”, “Neo-nazsis”, “Soverign Citizens”, ” CofCC which stands for Council of Conservative Citizens” and on and on who spit on United States Congressman on the Capitol steps giving news interviews, mix into respectful Tea Party functions and shout obscenities and Hate messages which is what our enemys now and in the past have done. When and if things take a “terrible turn for the worse” as you put it the Country and our Government will keep us together and Free not in little “puss pockets” waving swazsticas but as an educated citizenry who respect God and Country. Today as opposed to yesteryear we have many more State & Federal Agencys like the Border Patrol, US Customs & Immigration, FBI, CIA, State & National Guards who are doing a GOOD JOB of keeping us safe. We have people now who fly from Raleigh to Chicago to go to work. Not every body in Rochester or Birmingham is from Rochester or Birmingham anymore. No, the lines today are not as clearly drawn but the beliefs and the correctness thereof are there and if anybody doubts what side they should be on they have some work to do.