Not long ago a blogger who had faced some difficult times in his ministry wrote: “I would rather be a missionary in the most dangerous, anti-Christian place in the world than try to revitalize an existing, traditional Southern Baptist church.” Though I don’t personally know that blogger, I have friends who share his sentiment and lean the direction of church planting.
I myself have been tempted by the wiles of church planting (don’t jump on me about the temptation language—I value church planting, I’m just trying to be cute!), but have chosen the route of pastoring in established and traditional Southern Baptist churches. Call me a glutton for punishment…
And I speak as one who has gone through the pain of being forced to resign from a church that was, at best, a terrible situation. While in seminary, I pastored a small country church in south-central Indiana. It had little structure, an out of tune piano, a liberal-leaning lady who ran the show, and hardly any men. It actually proved to be a great experience. In the course of three years, I grew as a pastor and preacher, the church doubled in size without any formal outreach efforts, giving went up, and though I disagreed with several people on certain points of theology (and politics!) they loved me and I loved them. It was a good beginning.
Then…I graduated and decided to head in the direction of home (Missouri). I ended up at a church in Southeast MO, it was my first fulltime pastorate, and I thought I would be there for years to come. Boy, was I wrong. Less than a month in, red flags started flying. A lot of what I wanted to do was undercut with talk behind my back while people smiled to my face. The problems grew worse and I became more isolated and disenfranchised, yet I determined to stick it out since I was sure God placed me there. Finally, after eight months they dismissed me complete with a series of events that left me feeling manipulated, lied to, and angry. It doesn’t help when they try to send your character through the shredder and tell you, “We think you’re a great teacher, but you’re a terrible pastor.”
At the age of 27 I was jobless and homeless (the church had a parsonage), and forced to move back in with my parents (thus, also, humbled). Emotionally I was exhausted and spiritually I was bitter. A good friend of mine invited me to a young adult Bible Study at his church, and I went determined to be as silent as possible and to not let anyone know I had been a pastor…because I just needed to hear other people talk about God for a while. And it started the process of healing.
Yet with the experience, I was on the verge of dropping the pastoring thing, especially with established churches (the one I grew up in for the first 20 years of my life saw its own slew of problems that are permanently stuck in my mind as well). But I couldn’t shake the feeling that was where I belonged. And here I am, nearly three years later, pastor of another established and traditional SB church (albeit on the opposite side of the state)… It has its issues and problems, and several areas concerning doctrine and practice that serve as potential points of a split if poorly handled. And I’m happy here. In part it is because we have started a new discipleship paradigm and I am spending a lot of time with individuals and small groups (especially a group of men), training them on what it means to live the gospel and apply it to their families and others they might mentor. They’re excited, I’m excited, it will be a slow process, but there’s great potential.
But I wouldn’t be here now if not for the fact that I love working in established churches…so what draws me to them? Two things:
First, Ephesians 1:3-14. It doesn’t matter how rough around the edges we are, it doesn’t matter how young or immature in our faith we might be, it doesn’t matter our problems or our issues…if we are saved by the grace of God, then God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing and he has destined us to become holy and blameless people who receive a great inheritance. This is true with churches and individual Christians: we should look at them not for what they are, but for what God is shaping them to be. No church is perfect, nor is any church plant. Every established church was a plant, and every plant if it survives will become an established church steeped in its own traditions. Yet they all fit into this passage. I’m not going to be naïve about the potential issues in a church (especially not after the experiences I’ve had), and as much as I would love to focus solely on the people who want to be growing disciples, I’ll also have to deal with the Pharisees and snakes when they slither out from under their rocks. That’s life. But I choose to see the deep-down potential in God’s work more than the cracks and blemishes.
And second, 2 Timothy 4:1-5…especially in terms of the word “patience.” When working with individuals in discipleship you are faced with the reality: spiritual growth, maturity, and sanctification are slow. There are questions that sometimes get asked 40 different times in 20 different ways. People struggle with sin and fail constantly. There are ample misunderstandings, occasional laziness, and rampant busyness. Pride rears its ugly head far more than humility. And a lot of people think they know more about the Bible than what they actually do know. It takes a lifetime to even begin to become like Jesus. And if that’s true for the individual, how much more is it for a church filled with 50, 100, 2000, or 10000 individuals? It takes patience and understanding, and even times where we must “endure suffering.”
I value and support church planting. It is a needed mission and ministry where churches do not exist. But the established churches need love too, even if they are sometimes hard to get along with.
A lot of what I wanted to do was undercut with talk behind my back while people smiled to my face. The problems grew worse and I became more isolated and disenfranchised, yet I determined to stick it out since I was sure God placed me there. Finally, after eight months they dismissed me complete with a series of events that left me feeling manipulated, lied to, and angry. It doesn’t help when they try to send your character through the shredder and tell you, “We think you’re a great teacher, but you’re a terrible pastor.” Mike, if you are… Read more »
Hey, I served that church! Granted it had a different name, and was in a different state, but it was the same church. Seriously: have you factored in the concept of healthy verses dysfunctionlity in the church? From 1986 through 2004, I served dysfunctional churches–all but the first deliberately, as that became my ministry. All churches, being composed of human beings, have problems (ranging from minor to major) from time to time. There are situations in which the “match” between church and pastor is simply not a good match, and it is more a matter of leadership style and expectations… Read more »
Was it in South Boston? Cause the one I’m talking about was 20 miles from there.
In my short life, I’ve been a part of 6 churches in various ways… only one of those would I describe as “healthy” (the church I went to while in college) and that’s because the pastors who were there brought them out of dysfunctionality and into healthiness through patience, prayer, a whole lot of teaching the Word, and discipleship… Add that to all the stories I’ve heard/hear from other pastors and I have great doubts about the existance of too many non-dysfunctional churches! 🙂 But your point is true: some churches take a whole lot more foundation building and ground… Read more »
Wouldn’t it be grand if they had told you the truth and nothing but the truth on those folks!!!!
No church will ever be perfect, but there is such a thing as a reasonable group of people trying to serve God rather than themselves.
The best dysfunctional church I ever served was in South Boston, Virginia. The worst dysfunctional church I ever served was in Hickory, NC–I had a heart attack there, mostly stress-related. Another pastor died of a heart attack, a music minister and I think a youth minister were both committed, others had various health problems, and all but two (myself and a youth minister who served only two years) were either fired or forced to resign, as far back as at least the 1950s. Some of these, the church leadership readily admitted, were not for cause, but simply because they “decided… Read more »
Here’s a view from the member-of-the-established-church perspective. I’ve been a member of the same tiny SBC church in Northern NY for all my Christian life (almost 30 years). I love the church, and the people, and when we get a new pastor, I often feel like telling them “Run, run for your life if you know what is good for you!!” The large percentage of our members is one extended family (which I married into). That can (and has) cause problems. Gossip is a real issue. We are very hard on pastors. Our record for a pastor stay is 7… Read more »
Mike, Good, interesting article. I’ve don’t see any reason why some would criticize a man being called to pastor an established, traditional church. Nor do I see any reason to criticize a man called to begin a new church. Or, at times to do both. Both are obviously in the plan of God. God prepares each of us in different ways. And a preacher has to have some toughness, and wisdom, either way. God bless all you guys that are pastoring a church, new or traditional. It’s one of the best, and at times one of the toughest, jobs in… Read more »
Mike, I hear you brother, been there for sure. I believe what really needs to happen in our convention is for the dying church to give up it’s facilities and let a committed core group come in an “repot” or “replant” the church. There’s a good article about this in the recent issue of OnMisson magazine. Most of these churches are already dead, they just haven’t had the funeral yet. Why continue doing this over and over to young pastors and their families? I serve as a bi-vocational church planter and it would have to be a burning bush scenario… Read more »
As an eleven year member of an SBC church in California I would offer a comment of support for the post. Our church was once active and vibrant. It is now a senior dominated church of forty or so. No mortgage, cash in the bank. Twenty years of a lack of pastoral and lay vision and leadership (among many other things) has resulted in a tired, dispirited congregation surrounded by thousands of people who need to gospel. I suspect our profile matches hundreds (probably thousands) of SBC churches across the country. I think I appreciate the enticement of church planting.… Read more »
I appreciate this article.
The one who said he would rather be overseas in danger than in an est. church here isn’t over the bitterness of his past situation, I’d guess.
There are some churches that are pastor-killers but not a great proportion.
I was surprised and a bit angry years ago when the state convention’s staff guy who handled resumes and pastor Established, tradition anchored churches with social structures, power structures and the like already locked in aren’t for everyone. But they ar
After 30 plus years and several beatings, I’ve decided to take a new approach in my final years of service. I’ve done both: radical church starts and traditional SBC. I’m in a very traditional church. I’m following a pastor who had been at the church for 37 years. In California, this is absolutely unheard of for the most part. He’s a good friend and still preaches for me when he comes to town. He was very conservative and the church is very conservative But, the church is very mission minded. They want to reach 20 Somethings and have voted to… Read more »
I can almost hear God saying, “He’s had enough trouble and deserves a break!!!”
I feel I have had the same God treatment!
Another key issue in success is the wilingness of your predecessor to let go the rope and be your main source of help. Few seem to be able to manage this one too.
Blessings on your ministry and may it be a great surce of healing and joy. Hope your arthritis of older years doesn’t stop your hand clapping and foot stomping with the band!!!
Gene, one of the reasons my predecessor was able to have 37 years of fulfilling ministry (a few as the second fastest growing church on the West Coast) was because he is a master at conflict management. He was willing to take years to solve a problem instead of letting it destroy his ministry. I think that is a great sign of leadership. I tend to be a “matter-of-fact-tell-it-like-it-is-let-the-chips-fall-where-they-may-get-it-done-now” kind of guy. I hope I am learning to have a little more “grace with my truth” (in the same order as with the Lord Jesus). And, if I get to… Read more »
Sadly, churches are not perfect because people are not perfect!!! Too many of us who become the new pastor tend to think we have the perfect answers and people should just listen to us and all will be good! I have found more joy in bi-vocational pastoring than in the large churches I served for the first 12 or so years of my paid ministry. When you get paid and dependent on a church for housing and income you have 2 basic choices: Comply with their expectations / defy them and get crunched. It is interesting you speak of “Pharisees… Read more »
“”When you get paid and dependent on a church for housing and income you have 2 basic choices: Comply with their expectations / defy them and get crunched”” Herein lies the great fallacy in your thinking (which shows up often). The “excluded middle,” or “false dichotomy.” You have a very low view of people and obviously from your history have low skills in dealing with people. You rationalize away your own weak leadership skills by blaming “hateful churches.” Believe me, I’ve seen some “hateful churches” over the last 32 years. I was well on my way to becoming jaded and… Read more »
SSBN / Joe– Why is it you guys never quit??? I make a reasonable statement. You restate / mistate such and start your tyrade!!! What’s the problem???? Did you not read that only 2 of some 12 churches were a problem? So—let’s be positive = what have been your statistics and how are you dealing with the rejection and insults you have endured as a minister of the Gospel???? I can’t believe that in a blog where honesty and sharing has been totally present thus far, you want to bite me when we have all been bitten by hurtful church… Read more »
Answer my question, then I’ll answer yours!!!! Obviously, Gene, you are not interested in dialogue. I’ve answered your question twice now, and each time you come back whining about personal attacks. By the way, I did see your “2 out of 12” statistic, but oddly that statistic has different meanings for you and me. You follow-up that “minimalist” assessment with a stronger generalization in regard to anyone who relies on others for “income and housing.” You are jaded which makes it hard for you to think objectively about this subject. I will say this: I will pretty much guarantee that… Read more »
Sorry, Gene. I just read what you wrote. I do not think it is too far amiss to say that you consistently are negative in regard to your church experience. If that is not what you mean to convey, then perhaps you should check your language. I answered your question in a very honest and positive way from my own experience, but your presuppositions fell down over your eyes so you could not see. It’s interesting that I simply pointed out your fallacy in logical reasoning and you take offense at that. I think if you read back over your… Read more »
So—let’s be positive = what have been your statistics and how are you dealing with the rejection and insults you have endured as a minister of the Gospel????
Answer my question, then I’ll answer yours!!!!
So, at age 64, I speak the words of Paul
You believe that mormons worship the same Jesus that Christians do. You believe muslims have faith that will save them. Therefore, you do not know the gospel, have not “fought the good fight” or “kept the faith” because you are not a Christian.
“”preaching accurately””
If you indeed did this, then whatever result you received you should be giving God glory and thanks.
However, if you mean you just “told ’em like it is” with no real concern for their souls, then expect a few sheep will react by biting.
I’m not sure what “preaching accurately” really means, especially coming from someone who believes the Bible is full of errors. Somehow, I see a disconnect.
Please enlighten me as to what it means to “preach accurately.”
Michael #7, You’re right on target here from an experience my son had but particularly in regard to a new pastor out of seminary with his family including children who believes he has been called into this church that God left a long time ago. A minister’s association could inform these new people and teach both some life saving lessons. SBC or State Conventions could attack this problem with cold hard facts to students as well as to churchs hopefully making both more productive. This is the most beneficial and professional Blog from my standpoint I’ve seen here. Can’t wait… Read more »
Gene Scarbouough, I feel I am entitled to tell you that I believe what you say as truth as you make too much sense concerning areas of which I do have some knowledge. You’ve been strongly accused and come back for more. I think you are a strong man which is willing to uphold your principles when it’s far easier another way. Some of my son’s best supporters have been in the black community where they have paid the price and he will work his situation out.
Jack— That’s part of the reason I stay with this rough bunch on this blog = I have no aspiration for a big SBC church / my ministry is to individuals where I don’t have to play games. What was that old song: “When you know you’re right, then go ahead.” My father taught me as a small child by word and action: “See with your own eyes / hear with your own ears / think with your own brain / even if you are the only one seeming to see it that way, stick with your own conscience between… Read more »
Jack, I agree with you. I believe the whole process in a church calling a pastor is fatally flawed. A man is called for an interview from a resume and answers questions the way they want to hear. The search team tells the pastor all the things he wants to hear. He preaches ONE sermon, the church who knows nothing of him, votes him in and that’s a good match? Then a few months later they both realize they made a mistake. The problem is a church can find a new pastor fairly quickly and has nothing to lose. The… Read more »
Michael,
I agree… the way we are calling pastors is “bad business all the way around.”
http://gritsgrace.blogspot.com/2009_12_01_archive.html
Michael– I think you are a little oprimistic as to the time taken for a preacher-killing church to find another victim. Anymore, many of us are asking as a main question: “How long is the average tenure of you previous pastors / what is the reason the last 3-5 left?” Good ministers have choices, especially if they are not tying themselves to full time ministry. God has always provided for me. In addition, my father’s admonition that when God says, “Vengence is mine.” he means it!!! You don’t have to straighten them out, but God certainly will and just might… Read more »
Mike, great article! the last couple of paragraphs were so valuable and hopefully we all take them to heart in our everyday dealing with one another as Christians. I am prone to lean on Philippians 1:6 and realize I am not the only one in the kingdom of God with whom Jesus is working to complete. Makes living with the rest of the world a bit easier for me… Ministries behind us…a mix of all you said in your post. But in the final analysis, I wouldn’t change anything but me if we had them to do over again. selahV
Reading the title, I was wondering if you could define an “established” and “unestablished” church?
The quote at the beginning of this article came from me and I still hold to it. Since I left the established traditional church on October 31, I can say that the past six weeks have been the most fulfilling in my entire ministry. It is wonderful to meet each week with like-minded believers who are serious about their faith. We have outgrown meeting in the homes and God has provided us a wonderful meeting space at our local YMCA. Here’s another quote for you from my 35 year-old son, Rob: “I would rather go to church with 20 people… Read more »
I actually think I would enjoy pastoring a non-traditional church. However, your comment leaves some impressions that, if intentional, are unfair. Are you meaning to imply that non-traditional church people are serious about their faith but traditionalists are not? Do you mean to imply that traditionalists are not serious about their faith? Are you saying that all traditional churches are dying a slow death because they focus only on themselves. In my experience, there are some non-traditional churches that are no more serious about “dying to self, depending on Christ, discipling themselves and others” or “departing” anywhere. In short, I… Read more »
Les, I totally agree with your comment. But not for the reasons you might assume. I am still in the traditional church but have added a more organic form of ekklesia to my life that is free from the concerns about paid staff, new carpet, sound systems, programs or manufactured church growth strategies or even planned “services”. Every member of the Body functions in some capacity. I would not call it “established” but more organic in nature. It is more Jesus centered than anything I have ever been involved with before. And I have been in a ton of “established”… Read more »
Dave Miller:
You said to Les:”I actually think I would enjoy pastoring a non-traditional church. However, your comment leaves some impressions that, if intentional, are unfair.”
I agree. Hopefully he will clarify some of his statements.
My sense is that his comments universalized his experience. Perhaps the things he said were true in the particular church or churches he served, but that does not make his experience a universal truth.
I don’t think the problem is simply church structure, but is the people who operate that style.
“I don’t think the problem is simply church structure, but is the people who operate that style.”
After all my years in Org Development, I can tell you that is not really how it works. It might for a season with a charismatic style of leadership but structure eventually dictates function. Always has and always will.
The problem with the church is that it is structured like the worldly systems. It is inbred in us and hard to break that paradigm that Jesus Christ, not a human, is the boss.
Lydia, I’m interested in your “organic” experience. I’ve recently read Pagan Christianity. My first impression is that there’s a lot of “throwing the baby out with the bath water” it seems to me that one problem that could possibly arise with a more organic approach is that in any group of humans there are always those who will dominate and take over and those who willingly sit back and allow themselves to be led. Now I understand that a group of Christians should be able to get together with an attitude of all are to be servents, but it seems… Read more »
“Now I understand that a group of Christians should be able to get together with an attitude of all are to be servents, but it seems the practical reality is that when groups of people get together that unintentionally you will have some leading/following?” I think that is true but it does not have to be static as it always is in the traditional venue. That is where I think the problem lies. And, we must not forget that we are talking about understanding that believers are to be led by the Holy Spirit. Does not happen right away but… Read more »
It sounds like you would agree that the more organic means of worship are best engaged where “mature” believers are involved. My experience or should I say what I see happening is these bully personalities latching onto the organic movement and using it to make up their own followings. So I think the danger is these personalities in a traditional setting who cause a lot of problems in that setting saying “You’re doing it wrong and I’m gonna go off and do it right.” So it would seem like (and I admit my knowledge is limited) that the same problems… Read more »
Bess, what is an ‘organic’ Church?
L’s my understanding and perhaps Lydia can help out here is “organic” worship is something that is natural without order or plan. A group of Christians get together and anyone who has a word can share or if someone would like to sing can sing, or whatever portions of the Bible are speaking to a person may be discussed. It’s Spirit led where a group of Christians come together. No leaders, no parameters like an order of service.
The House Church is a good and interesting concept. I am seeing many of them forming as people tire of the mega church being lost in the crowd. Many seem to feel the mega is all about money and show and they want more. Most operate in the fashion you describe. They seem to next move to a storefront for some kind of formal place to meet. I think it is a renewal of the real nature of the first Chritians who sought to worship Christ and serve one another. No matter what, God’s Holy Spirit is alive and well… Read more »
Bess, your description of an ‘organic’ Church reminds me of the Society of Friends’ meetings (the Quakers).
Very quiet, sometimes someone speaks a word, if they feel led to do it. Peaceful.
Don’t know anything about the Quakers except that Richard Nixon claimed to be one??? I can see the attraction of the more organic worship experience and mostly what I’ve heard/read has been what I would consider pretty solid Biblically. There are dangers I think of bullies taking over and cultic practices – but that’s true in the traditional settings as well. I have not been convinced that we have to give up the traditional methods completely. I guess I would be confortable with a marriage of the two. Most of the Pastors/church leaders I’ve known have genuinely wanted to do… Read more »
I have had the priviledge of serving on the church staff of a non-traditional church plant in the US, starting a few churches in S America and pastoring three traditional churches in the US. Each was completly different from the other and the one common trait among them all was that each had its share of joy and trials. Some are easier than others and I thank God for His grace when I am in a good situation, but “traditional” churches are great places to do ministry, it just depends on which traditional church you are in. I know the… Read more »
“It sounds like you would agree that the more organic means of worship are best engaged where “mature” believers are involved.” I did not communicate that well at all. What I meant is that becoming a mature seasoned believer “eating meat” and being led by the Holy Spirit is the desired outcome from time with the ekklesia. It is harder for that to happen when one is always a spectator in crowd. I am not saying it cannot happen. We try to stay within a sort of 1 Corin 14 process which provides interaction and testing what is taught by… Read more »
Unfortunately, it seems that it would still take more maturity than a lot of the pew sitters have to realize that they are not getting meat by simply sitting in the pew. One problem with the traditional method (and it’s a huge one) is that we are a society that wants our stuff without a lot of work and/or even thought. So many people in the tradtional setting are so focused on what kind of programs the church offers. I think most churches do offer opportunites for a more organic feel, but getting people to actually participate and interact is… Read more »
“One problem with the traditional method (and it’s a huge one) is that we are a society that wants our stuff without a lot of work and/or even thought” Exactly. So we have to ask how much our traditional structure contributes to this or enables it? Remember, I was involved in the Church Growth Movement and we targeted the “unchurched” in our marketing. That was the focus. We convinced ourselves that included the Gospel. But, if we focus on the Gospel first, the people who believe are compelled to want to be with other believers. They cannot stand not being… Read more »
Well and with the “marketing” of the church, churches have fallen into the trap of “give them what they want” but not all the leaders (I know you don’t like that concept) want church to be that way. Many people are simply not willing to step out of their comfort zone and take responsibility for their worship. I know just in something which should be as simple as prayer meeting our Pastor is frustrated because he’s tried to have an open prayer time where anyone can pray and only a few will. And I’ve mentioned small groups. So I understand… Read more »
If I may gentlemen, I’ve travelled the world because I was in the Navy for 20 years. The best Sunday service I have EVER encountered was onboard a U.S. Navy ship, berthed in the Persian Gulf in 1992. It was a glorious Easter Sunrise Service. The ship’s chaplain was a Lutheran (and a woman to boot)! But, there I was in a place where Christianity is anathema to the culture, and I had never experienced God’s presence in my life more fully. The service was poorly attended as was normal. But amidst all denominations that morning, the face of Christ… Read more »
With all due respect for your post there seems something obvious that many are overlooking. You make some great points and I believe they are points that anyone in the ministry should consider. I especially appreciate the point concerning how we should look at others. I wish I had been more willing to listen to the Spirit of God in my own life to have embraced this fact earlier in my ministry. Secondly, I have been blessed to have been influenced much by men faithful in the ministry who have served churches for long periods of time and remained faithful… Read more »
I have to admit to being a little flummoxed here. Mike is about as gentle as blog posters come. He did not “call out” Les Puryear. He just referenced some Les said publicly. He did not even name Les. Les came on and admitted to the quote. He did not complain that he had been misquoted. He stood by the quote. It seems you are saying that disagreeing with someone is wrong? Les actually logged on to AFFIRM the quote! I think your criticism here against Mike is unfair and misplaced. Mike was gracious while expressing an opinion different than… Read more »
I just really struggled with the introduction. Maybe I am oversensitive in this area but I had just read the blog which he quoted a day or two before and it seemed that he was using someone’s misfortune to highlight something he was writing. Also, while the writer of the quote was unnamed I would suppose that a very high percentage of readers knew immediately of whom he was speaking. With that assumption – yes, on my part – I personally took offense to the beginning of what was overall an excellent article. I certainly have no problem with people… Read more »
I didn’t know it was Les until he claimed the quote.
Yeah, if I was wanting to “call him out” I would have named him, linked to his blog, or written this and tried to post it a day or two after he blogged his thoughts. The words we write in public are for public consumption and discussion. And this was my discussion on what he wrote–aimed not at Les as a person, his character, or his current work, but at a statement and reasoning with which I disagreed. My point was: I’ve been there too, as have many other pastors, but let’s not trash the car because the tires blew.… Read more »
I have written pieces that “called out” another blogger. Not often, but I have. If you write something publicly, it is for public discussion. I try to focus on the content, not the personality, but I have written pieces that directly confront something someone else said.
I do not consider that to be wrong.
In one fairly recent case, DAVID, you were ‘right on’ to do it.
Selah V did not deserve the attack from that blogger at all.
Her post was positively written to ask for helpful ideas.
I do not feel “called out” by the author of the post. He disagrees with my statement and that is his right to do so. I continue to stand by my statements. And yes, my perspective is based on experience: my personal experience in pastoring four traditional SBC churches and the experience of countless other traditional small church pastors who have poured out their heart to me over the past four years. Are there traditional churches filled with people who are serious about their faith? I certainly hope so. However, I haven’t seen very many of them. What I do… Read more »
Let’s get back to the basic concept of churches and whether it is better to serve an established one or a new one. I have served both and each has its features. The established ones required a period of “getting to know them.” Each was different and some turned out to be far from the picture they gave me in the negotiations. A Pulpit Committee always is the first point of contact. If there is interest on both sides it goes to a visit to the church / preaching a “trial sermon” / and their presenting you their offer for… Read more »
You know, I think the “getting to know them” period is one of the points of ministarial frustration and church stagnation. I’ve heard a lot of pastors/professors say: don’t try to make major changes until you’ve been there 5-to-10 years…but the average stay for a pastor is what, five years or less? For most churches one pastor right after another is simply: 1) new face, 2) get to know you period, 3) leave. At my present church, I decided to do something different to try to break the pattern… I’ve suggested some minor tweaks here and there, but the main… Read more »
I think you are wise in pointing out the average stay time of too many preachers. A real ministry developes over time. On the other hand, staying too long can lead to stagnation and an attempt to “just make them happy until I can retire. I would hope that any minister goes to an established church with the belief that they need what he has to offer. Should the relationship reach the point where you are bored or don’t see any changes for the better, it would be wise to move on. I like Helen Keller’s observation: “Life is either… Read more »
“”It all gets away from the Sunday Morning Worship where the Pastor entertains for his 20 minutes so everyone can get to the restaurant on time and then proceed to a nap or football game.”” Thank God you are out of full time ministry if that was your approach. It certainly is not my approach or the approach of any pastor I know of personally. Nearly everytime you post, your departure from the mainstream ministry makes more sense to me. I think it is tragic that you feel the need to paint pastors with such a broad brush of evil… Read more »
I don’t think that making changes too soon is the problem as making the wrong changes.