The SBC Plodder is back with another examination of Calvinism. I will put on my Karnak turban and predict a lively discussion. After all, I have ESP-N.
I’m a hacker and a plodder and am no different than the other fifty thousand or so SBC pastors but I do have a thirty year history with Calvinism and Calvinists and, unsurprisingly, have an opinion about it and them. To be candid, while I’m mostly ambivalent about Calvinismm, I’m decidedly wary of Calvinists. Here’s why:
1. Calvinists can be, well, rather arrogant. No, they don’t have a monopoly on such but my observation is that they have acquired more of it than one would expect from their numbers. And since they have it, they are happy to share it with the rest of us – the unwashed, sub-calvinist masses.
Here’s a selection of quotes from a recent SBCVoices piece on Calvinism:
“When I consider how long I fought the Doctrines of Grace, I now wonder why. I must decrease and He must increase.”
“Why is it appealing? Maybe because it is what the Bible teaches?
Tweaking the question, why is it that now young pastors are reaching the proper interpretation of these texts?”
“…because the conservative resurgence handed us a Bible, and told us to believe all of it.”
“… as I think the teachings of Calvinism come straight from the Bible, what has led to a resurgence of Calvinism is not any psychological effect or comfort but careful biblical study.”
“…the source of the [Calvinist] resurgence remains God’s Word.”
“The evangelical Calvinists have done such a good job that they are almost the only game in town for a vibrant faith that is intellectually stimulating at the same time. Other evangelical voices have a lot of catching up to do, if they can and want to.”
I read this stuff and find it to be a nostalgic reminder of seminary hallway arguments, inevitable classroom debates, eager young theologs brimming with certainty, and adorable young calvinist polemicists waging scorched earth doctrinal campaigns. No thanks.
I’m all for defending a doctrinal position but perhaps there are Calvinists who will admit that there are other followers of Christ who are scholarly, biblical, and non-calvinist. Is it a lonely search for the Calvinists who has a modicum of humility mixed with the acknowledgement that there are yet some mysteries to our faith?
Maybe all of those kind of Calvinists just stay off of the blogs and discussion forums.
2. I’ve been around too many churches that have been wrecked by Calvinists.
No, Calvinists don’t have a lock on wrecking churches and I certainly know many more non-calvinist pastors who have wrecked churches. The latter just don’t hurl themselves headlong into the task out of their doctrinal positions.
What is one to say when a Calvinist gains a pulpit and immediately declares that there is heresy in the church that must be rooted out, the heresy being that the church is not sufficiently Calvinist?
What is one to say when sermons begin with “God doesn’t love everyone”
or “God may choose this child for heaven and this child is not chosen and is bound for hell”? I recognize that these statements can be nuanced, and we all like to be provocative at times, but is it surprising that a Calvinist pastor can be said to divide the church over such teaching?
What is one to say when the Calvinist pastor aggressively tries to implement an elder system of church governance, and it appears to be less about biblical church polity than about the pastor installing his allies in positions of power and authority to the exclusion of all others?
3. Calvinists have been known to be less than forthcoming with search committees.
Tom Ascol, an erudite and reasonable man, blogged last year about some documents that were being distributed in Tennessee among SBC churches. Their thrust was described as ‘how to smoke out a Calvinistic pastor in your church.’
I can see where this stuff comes from.
My evidence is anecdotal and limited but in my experience Calvinist pastors have minimized their Calvinist beliefs with search committees in order to gain a pulpit. I hate to say it but this is precisely the technique some liberal pastors have employed with church committees – obfuscate, finesse, dart and weave.
No, I’m not saying what most calvinists say to a committee, but this is what some committee members have relayed to me.
I would absolutely advise any church to be thorough enough in their search process to determine a prospective pastor’s beliefs on Calvinism. I know that Calvinists generally eschew the term ‘calvinist’ in favor of other labels and descriptors. Laypeople must be savvy enough to understand the vocabulary.
If my experience with Calvinists did not include their negative impact on churches I would label this article, “Why I am annoyed with Calvinists” rather than “Why I am wary of Calvinists.” It is this last point that moves the conversation from annoying to wariness. I can do annoying pretty good myself.
If calvinism is appealing to young SBCers, a fact I do not dispute, it is repulsive in many expressions to not a small number of SBCers. Why is it that some circulate ‘calvinist smoke-out guides’ or why have some churches cut funding to calvinist SBC institutions? Are those who so act evil, misguided, or alarmist? Perhaps there is something concrete and important behind these acts.
Perhaps my experience is atypical and an aberration. I’d be pleased to know that is the case. If not, I’ll look askance at Calvinists but still rejoice when Christ is preached and Christ is preached by every Calvinist I know.
I love my Calvinist Brothers and Sisters. But, William, what you wrote is true.
David
“I love my Calvnist Brothers and Sisters”
Somehow I am not buying this David, beings you would love us to leave.
Debbie,
You dont know my heart. I love my Assembly of God Brothers, too….even though I really dont want to join them.
As I’ve said before Debbie….I have no problem with calvinists being in the SBC. I have a problem with the 5 pt. CALVINISTS. But, I even love them, too
David
It is none of my business who Debbie loves or does not love and none of my business who God loves or doesn’t. If God loves everybody,a statement He denies,He would love all the Demons and reprobates in Hell. I’m not buying it. Who is man to contend against God. We are less than dust in the balance. God doesn’t take orders from men on how to distribute his grace.
I was irresistibly chosen for Calvinism back in my college days. I can only wonder how many people in those days thought I was arrogant, divisive and obnoxious as I worked through the discovery of those views.
I am a moderate Calvinist by today’s standards, but I think that I would have to plead guilty in the early days of my journey to the arrogant/obnoxious accusation.
Hope it is not so true anymore.
“Calvinists can be, well, rather arrogant” I am curious how you define the difference between arrogance and direct expressions of conviction. One reason I’m as direct as I am (and a few of your examples looks like they came from my comments) is because we live in an age when hard truth is frowned upon. People are supposed to wallow in a faith neutral and broad enough to encompass everyone. Anyone who firmly holds to a definite opinion is labelled arrogant. Of your examples, only one of them bore any resemblance to what I would call arrogance – a mindset… Read more »
Chris, I appreciate your candor but I think I am familiar with arrogance. On calvinists and committees, take my word “wary” as the salient term. Let the candidate be forthcoming and let the committee be thorough.
You will recall that I have two articles on calvinism, one that is complimentary and one that is critical. I’m a balanced kind of guy, although I am aware that some SBC non-calvinists are not.
But I’m curious how your quotes are examples as arrogance. You say Calvinists tend to be arrogant, then you cite several examples. But what makes those comments arrogant? Flesh it out for me. What about the things I said are arrogant?
I don’t recall whose is whose, Chris. Perhaps to you and others these are expressions of theological certitude, correctness, and absoluteness. To me they have perhaps, possibly, maybe, the slightest pungency. Nothing personal. These were the closest examples at hand, not the most egregious.
You used them as examples of Calvinist arrogance. How are they arrogant? Not how might they slightly be considered a little possibly not good, how are they arrogant? Or am I being arrogant by asking you to tell me in clear terms how the examples you gave of people committing sin are, in fact, sinful?
Chris, may I note here that you use words and make conclusions that I did not? You also put words in my mouth (I said C “can be” arrogant, not “tend to be” arrogant), but I’ll answer your question (from below) nonetheless: those comments look arrogant to me. On all of the but the first, you might look at them from the perspective of the non-calvinists. The universe is divided into Bible believers, careful Bible students, proper Bible interpreters and, well, the converse of those. As the one comment said, you guys are the “only game in town.” That’s arrogance.… Read more »
I mentioned above that only one of the comments you quoted struck me as arrogant. It was the one you mentioned – the one about the only game in town. How ironic that it turns out that quote was by a non-Calvinist! Jim G commented below that the comment was his, and he is not a Calvinist. So that does not serve as an example of Calvinist arrogance since a Calvinist did not say it! Perhaps a note on your post correcting that mistake would be in order. And I’ll retract “tend to” and replace with “can be” but I’m… Read more »
Chris, I commented below on the final example. It shouldn’t have been included.
I expressed an opinion. You rejected it. Fair enough. If I had wanted to describe you as being a sinner, I would have used that terminology. No need to impose on me your wild conclusions derived from what I didn’t say.
So what is arrogance if not sin? An unhealthy trait? An unfortunate choice? A misguided mindset? Is it possible for a behavior to be wrong yet not be sin?
My number one objection to items such as this is how do you define “Calvinist”? Do you lump all of them together from moderates, 2 pointers, all the way to hyper-Calvinists? Southern Baptists are Calvinistic, be believe in Total Depravity and Perseverance of the Saints, we affirm the Predestination is in the Bible someplace, but don’t really want to deal with it. The term itself has become as ambiguous as you would like it to be. It’s become like “democrat” or “republican” where we find the most extreme cases, classify the whole lot and them take pop shots. It’s becoming… Read more »
I think William is talking about 5 pt. CALVINISTS in this piece. He’s not talking about all the different types of calvinists in the SBC.
that’s my take on it…
Dan, Do you find, in general, those who agree with 2-4 of the points call themselves, Calvinists, as a rule?
Just curious. In my experience they do not usually refer to themselves as Calvinist but will say they agree with such and such points making them a __ pt Calvinist.
I think it depends on which part of the country you are in. In Iowa, no way. I other states in the West and Southwest they are more open to it.
William, since you quoted me above: “…because the conservative resurgence handed us a Bible, and told us to believe all of it,” while calling me “arrogant,” I can only assume that you see uncertainty as non-arrogant. You assume a whole host of negative statements about me in order to call me “arrogant” over one sentence. Why would you even assume that I don’t believe there are “other followers of Christ who are scholarly, biblical, and non-calvinist?” Is it because I believe that the Bible teaches 4-point Calvinism?Believing something is true necessarily means that you believe others are wrong. I assume… Read more »
and then, we get a long comment that perfectly describing what William was talking about….lol
David
“Hello, kettle…I’m David the pot…you’re black.”
🙂
Jared, actually, my final two points are anecdotally driven, not stereotypical or data driven. And, I was deliberate in not grouping all calvinists together. Perhaps you missed it. I readily admit that my views are based on my experiences with calvinists. I’m entitled to that.
Debbie, it’s believable…but have a good laugh. A sense of humor goes a long way in life. And you’re right, you don’t owe me anything but Christian civility.
Bob, I’ve always appreciated your comments over the years in the blogs. I’d like for you to note that I have expressed wariness towards Calvinists, not rejection.
William, you’re entitled to your opinion. I’ll just disagree. I wasn’t arrogant in my above comment that you quoted. You’re entitled to disagree; but, I don’t see how you can prove your argument.
Hey, Plodder is entitled to his opinion. Hallelujah! 😉
I don’t believe that I have to prove, Jared, that I am wary of calvinists because of the three reasons given.
William: Why would I be civil when you write things like this. Trolls expect that too.
William,
You are right, again…it’s been my experience, as well.
DAvid
David: You keep saying this, William keeps saying this but where is the proof? You have exaggerated before so I am having a very hard time believing you.
I would request everyone read this <a href="http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c171/tomascol/page1.jpg"list that was sent around Florida last year and this same list that William erroneously believes may have merit. It’s so ridiculous and based on pure lies. It just shows the lengths Christians, I still can’t believe it but Christians, will go to in order to make a group or person look bad enough to spread fear to exclude. I know the pattern and accusations like this were used to get rid of some in the past five years. This is a move to rid the SBC of Calvinists, I would bet money.… Read more »
Sorry, that didn’t work. Click on the link to Tom Ascol post William referred to in the OP, then click on the document in the article to enlarge and read. As for Williams charge What is one to say when the Calvinist pastor aggressively tries to implement an elder system of church governance, and it appears to be less about biblical church polity than about the pastor installing his allies in positions of power and authority to the exclusion of all others? I would like proof that this is being done as well. As I stated earlier, our church has… Read more »
By the way, Tom Ascol and Founders haven’t made a peep in a year, does that bother you guys and you are seeking to make them make noise again? I don’t know that they will. And it could be because 1. You guys are not a threat. 2. Things are going well in the Convention and except for a few noisemakers like you and David, SBCToday and Peter, we are content to live in peace with other non-Calvinists and they are content to live in peace with Calvinists. So why are you rocking the boat?
David: As I was reading through Tom Ascol’s comments I ran across yours and I thought I would remind you what you said and Tom Ascol’s response to you, which I thought was good. William’s being “anecdotal” by his definition might benefit from Tom’s response too. David, you said last year: I personally know of 4 or 5 Churches in W. TN…here lately… and some of them have been large Churches….where they called a man to be their Pastor, who was an aggressive, 5 point Calvinist, who came into the Church to change the Church; and they did not know… Read more »
David, Come one now. You know you and William are making this up. The Debbie has spoken and hath declared there is no proof. If it doesn’t come up on the first page of a Google search (or as The Debbie calls it “research”, snicker) it just isn’t true. The Debbie has spoken. (/sarcasm) Ok, now I’ll end the sarcasm. I’m a 5 ponit Calvinist. I’m such a 5 pointer that I won’t let my wife plant anything but TULIPs in the garden, ‘k. But I’ve seen the after effects of one particular Calvinist pastor who came in to an… Read more »
Because you are a follower of Christ? Because I am your Christian brother?
I can’t think of better reasons than those, Debbie.