The New Testament keeps pointing me to local communities of believers as the primary visible outworking of the church. There are occasional times of cooperation, and submission to apostolic leadership. But mostly the local church is busy preaching the Gospel and living out the implications of God’s Grace.
So, I’m a typical young pastor trying to work out how denominations fit into a biblic understanding of the church. I keep hearing smart people say we can do more together than we can apart. I’m not sure I can agree with that. Can’t most churches do more missions with less money through other non-SBC missions organizations?
What do you think?
I know many guys my age who lose interest in the SBC. Usually, they become discouraged by all the negative aspects of denominational debates. But I’ve known others who believe their continued engagement can advance the Gospel in some small way – either by seeking reforms or promoting missions.
Convince me . . . Why should I care about the SBC?
Because they have 16 million…, er 8 million…, um 4 million…, ah what was the question again?
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At the least, the SBC (as with all denominations) serve to unify Christians and create standards and accountability. Why do we (rightly) make fun of the fundie independent Baptist church with 17 points on eschatology in their credal statement? This happens when sectarianism (especially intellectual sectarianism) manifests itself. Ordination standards and academic peer review are important for the health and balance of any denomination. If for nothing else, that is one reason to care about the SBC. The SBC is far from perfect on these matters of accountability, but it could be much worse. I think the Baptist and Free… Read more »
my Grandfather, before the forsaking of the Doctrines of Grace, would have said as an engine for world evangelization.
My Father would have said because of its missions.
I say, the only cure for apostasy is Judgment. It’s time to get out.
I won’t try and convince you to stay in the SBC because I’m trying to understand why I remain here myself. Our church gives around 18% to missions and ministry, but every year we send less through the CP and more through other agencies that are more efficient. I’ve asked our boards for years to support national missionaries but we still insist on only supporting North Americans. Our church has also divided our CP giving in that we give half through the normal channel through the state and half directly to the mission boards. We do this because our state… Read more »
I don’t even think in terms of “staying in the SBC.”
Our church supports the SBC, but there are other missions agencies (and individuals) we support as well. But on a personal level, I’m generally discouraged about the need for such a large organization – especially when their is little real unity of purpose, belief or vision. I think we should always ask what is best for the Gospel’s advance.
Bill;
I would not like to be in their shoes, when God asks them, why they didn’t send the money to the field, instead of using it on organizational expenses at Home.
tony, this one is hard. every time i think the SBC isn’t getting anything done, some disaster hits and the SBC – churches working together – does more to help than any other religious organization out there. when i was in KC, MO katrina hit. hundreds of SBC churches set up meetings and formed various teams to go down and help out physically (with chainsaws and boats) and spiritually (with witnessing, tracts, counselling, etc.). the missouri baptist convention has had turmoil the last decade or so, but when push came to shove its infrastructure – down to the local churches… Read more »
Tony, I think you should stay in the SBC because the Lord calls us to stay where we are called. To plant ourselves where we are put and work for His glory to the nations. Regardless of all the junk going on in our denomination there are SBC churches out here that are preaching bible doctrine, practicing everything the Lord tells us to do in His Word and is honoring Him. I think of one passage of Scripture in 1 Cor 7 where Paul is talking about a person’s status or condition and it kinda fits this situation: “Each one… Read more »
Tony,
You should be thrilled that the SBC is no longer funneling millions of dollars a year toward the wolves as they did for decades prior to the conservative resurgence. But I don’t know of any reason why you should become/stay affiliated with the SBC. The SBC is still very inefficient and it still tolerates rabid Arminians.
*Inserts tongue in cheek.*
Why, in order to preserve baptist distinctives of course…
Thank you. I’ll be here all week.
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MIKE; Look At The GARB or Baptist Bible Fellowship.
Jeff Brown; I Cor 7;20 has nothing to do with The SBC.
This is to continue the conversation with Dr. Foltz and Mike about national missionaries and this quote of Mike’s, “but i personally don’t know what organization is more effective” What I learned on the field with the IMB was that a North American family costs about 75K a year or more to support. They do great work and are called to be there, but I like helping others too. For example, in some countries, that money would support 50 national families who already know the language and culture! We support Gospel for Asia, Alpha India Minsitries and a few others… Read more »
Dr. Foltz,
I know 1 Cor 7 has nothing to do with the SBC. Notice in my post I said “kinda” in other words kinda sorta. 🙂
In my opinion I don’t see any Scriptural evidence for any denomination or local associations.
What do you think?
Love & Blessings in Christ
Jeff
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How about a Top 10 Reasons to Stay a Southern Baptist list
I will start it off:
1. You were born in a baptist hospital
2. You are Lottie Moon’s cousin
3. You knew William Bullein Johnson personally
4.
jeff brown;
4. don’t carev where mission money goes
5 . don’t care if compromise is the name of the game
6.
Mike, “…those at the top get to hand pick who gets help, NOT local churches.” That is the most insightful observation concerning what is wrong with NAMB, the IMB, and the SBC as a whole that I have heard so far. The problem in the SBC is that the SBC and her agencies are no longer being steered by the local Churches. And in fact, we have reached the point where the SBC and her agencies are attempting to dictate (through ever narrowing parameters of cooperation) both doctrine and direction to the local churches. The Trustee system of oversight has… Read more »
Jeff Brown;
Paul said it is needful that there be heresies [GREEK-”Sects”] among us, that it
may be manifested which are approved of God
Great post! Thought I was the only one to ask my self this question. I was hopeing for some scripture to back staying, I have never found any and it seems I’m not alone in my search. I love the church God has placed me in, but if He ever moves me I’ll do some looking outside the SBC. (then God will send me where He wants me)
Why stay in the SBC? None of the following reasons argue that the SBC is perfect. We all know it isn’t; but then, you and I aren’t either. 1. Millions of members that love the Lord, the Bible, and lost souls. 2. We really can do more together than separately. Examples include missions, evangelism, seminaries, literature, church starting, training, fellowship and encouragement, disaster relief, accountability. For examples just read your State Baptist paper, attend a SBC church, read bpnews.net. I have a part in all that through participation, prayer, and by giving through the Cooperative Program and other SBC missions.… Read more »
1st of all, bill i love the work of gospel for asia, and i believe in the strategy of aiding indigenous missionaries. good word! still, part of the task remains “going,” not just “supporting.” but, good word 2nd, greg alford i’ll admit that my line you quoted was too far, a little extreme. still, what about the examples i gave? i know qualified people – called people of God with impeccable christian character – who were turned down by NAMB and the IMB with unsatisfying explanations. so, if “handpicked” isn’t accurate, what word would you choose? and when you state… Read more »
David, Thanks for your comments. I am listening and trying to think the whole thing through. For me it’s not really a matter of leaving – I’m not sure that’s even the right language. The SBC is not a place or organization that a single person can leave – unless you’re a denominational employee. Our church partners with the SBC in various ways, so as a member (and pastor), I’m part of that partnership. We support CP by default and the congregation is mostly uninterested in where the money goes. But now we see God raising up missionaries from our… Read more »
Tony, Hope I didn’t come across negative; I didn’t mean it that way. Just trying to give some general reasons. As you can see, I’m pretty pro-SBC. One of the neat things about the SBC is that we do have the flexibility to do things our way. You joining with 15 other churches and doing your own thing is in no way prohibited. At least not unless someone was to really get out in far left field. We can do missions through official SBC channels and other groups and organizations. I’ve seen some who were turned down by the IMB,… Read more »
David, Thanks again for your reply. I didn’t take it negative at all. I’m really wanting to be convinced and you’ve made a good case. I appreciate the idea of a cooperating convention of free churches. There are many good men & women who work for the SBC. The seminary was a blessing in my life in many ways. My main hangup is all the baggage that comes along with it, especially when our church can do missions in so many different ways. My default position is to be a nominal supporter of the SBC and encourage my missions committee… Read more »
Tony and all brothers serving in the SBC, You should care about the SBC primarily because the Lord has placed you in the SBC right now. Just because we may or may not like certain aspects of the SBC does not mean we have the right to become disinterested or ignore it. If all the young pastors who griped about the SBC’s problems on their blogs (I’m not thinking of your post, Tony) got involved in the affairs of the Convention (i.e., attended associational, state, and national meetings), we would be making the first step to solving some of the… Read more »
First, Jeff left out two key verses. 😉 1 Corinthians 7:21, 23 (ESV) 21 Were you a slave? when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) 23 u?You were bought with a price; v?do not become slaves of men. It’s a tough choice. The main reasons for staying seem to be pragmatic which are those that point to size advantages. However, most of these reasons, as in David’s points above, for example, are benefits from the local church rather than the SBC at large. In some sense, small… Read more »
As a pastor and former IMB missionary let me say I have struggled with some of the same issues raised. I have been around long enough to have had friends who did choose to leave and now gripe about the new church structure they find themselves ministering in. I know that I am grateful for the opportunity to go and plant churches overseas without having to constantly worry about my support as my dear brothers and sisters who were independents did. We often helped in times of crisis as churches dropped support to build their new buildings or just forgot… Read more »
Great discussion, although I skimmed through several comments. My humble observation on the matter is that the early church seemed to have similar associations although local churches were relatively autonomous. Why was it that Peter and the apostles determined a standard for what they would require of Gentiles? Why was Paul advising churches he could no longer visit? Sure, he planted them, but someone else was pastoring them. And Paul asked money to fund mission efforts from one church but not another. It’s natural for churches to want to associate and it seems okay from the scriptures to have leadership… Read more »
Interesting and curious discussion. From a missions standpoint I would like to make an obsevation, regarding the different points of view. The methods and effectiveness of the SBC, IMB orNAMB, if someone is “doing it better” (or whatever)- are not valid reasons for any decision. Neither are our comparing our concepts of the early church model, Stetzers model or Washer’s model, with the SBC. (2 Cor 10: 11-13) The esscence of the issue for me is; What is God calling YOU to do by FAITH? Is he calling and defining a role for your church in missions that are outside… Read more »
Brian, I agree with you in general, but I’d say you have to be willing to discuss how you discern God’s calling in faith. Many have fallen into error by following a false faith to their own self-delusion. Or I’ve even seen people provide seriously flawed leadership in mission efforts because they “felt led” rather than by heeding wise counsel. I’ve been involved in church planting in some areas and evangelism in other areas to people where no local visible church is possible among them. I’ve seen the hand of God work through, and in spite of, his flawed people.… Read more »
Thanks Jim, I also agree with you in general and apologize for not spell checking my last entry! I would say you have posed two different arguments though. Following God in a self motivated, self delusional, “feels good to me” way is not following God at all, is it? In missions or anything else? It is the difference between a Saul and a David, a Cain and Able and so on. I was talking obviously about REALLY following God, by REAL faith and as He REALLY leads. and not in false pretense, but in a biblical and God honoring way.… Read more »
The SBC is not a denomination. It is simply a cooperative.
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Brian, Thanks for your comments. My issue with clarity is a matter of practicality. Where it is not a bad thing to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and God works in many ways beyond our human institutions, saying it the way you said it can be easily misconstrued whether such is to delve into obvious error (heresy) or less obvious, to pursue a mission endeavor unwisely because one mistakenly “felt led” to do it that way. For example I’ll draw a contrast between two real missions I know about: Mission 1: Two missionaries from completely different mission boards… Read more »
I’m a member of a Southern Baptist Church, and have been for most of my life. However, I’m not sure I could muster a convincing argument for caring about the SBC per se. I care about local churches, and could argue passionately for caring about them. But denominations? I’d have a hard time convincing you, Tony, because I’m not convinced.
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