I spent a week at the Exponential Conference, a church planting conference in Orlando FL. It pushed me and challenged me in ways I had never considered. One of the things I came away with is a quote from Alan Hirsch, he said “the church doesn’t innovate”. The more I think about that, the more i think it’s true.
Think about it, we have only had one part of the service change much, that’s the music and it’s caused huge divisions. We call it the “worship wars” over organs vs guitars. One change and we take sides, arm ourselves and begin the warfare. While the rest of the world speeds to destruction, we still fight over hymns and power point.
We spend time arguing about the building, I don’t know how we have time to invite anyone in the building. We design spaces that we like and we enjoy and then unlock the doors and wait for the people to stream in. Then we act shocked when they don’t.
We still put all of our eggs in one basket, the Sunday morning Worship Service. We haven’t changed, we haven’t innovated. I can see why, you change one part of it and it almost divides the denomination. Makes you stop and wonder what is wrong with us.
Until we figure out that the priority is making disciples, and not growing our Sunday Morning service in our brick and mortar building, we are doomed.
A few weeks ago David Platt talked in a sermon about how in Acts when Paul went and planted a church he made sure there were four things there and then left: the Spirit of God, the Word of God, disciples, and pastors.
Maybe if we get back to seeing those four things as essential and everything else as secondary we won’t have to worry so much about innovating/being stuck, and church will flow more naturally in a building or in a field…
I take some of the points here but maybe we ought to rename this place “SBC Gloom and Doom Voices.” Splintered! Split! Dying! TIC.
I admit to attending more than one conference where the obit for various traditional church stuff was read. All have been premature.
I can’t speak for Dan, but I think the SBC is in trouble, therefore I wrote what I wrote.
The question is not whether we are “doom and gloom” but whether it is accurate. I think that the SBC will continue to fracture if we do not do some things.
Evidently, you are a little more of the all is well mentality. But if I’m right, we need to make some changes and to just keep on doing what we are doing is not good.
William, my primary bent toward most discussion leans toward skepticism, I will readily admit. But, I have to agree, that I’m beginning to look like and optimist which really ought to cause one to pause and think! I certainly realize there are problems in many SBC churches, but I really don’t think they are as simple and clear-cut as Dan suggests. I also wonder why anyone would pay good money to go hear “doom and gloom” when you can tune into TV for free! I also don’t think Dave is fair to put you in the “all is well mentality.”… Read more »
Dan, I agree that we’re not innovative; but, I don’t think this is why we’re not growing. I actually think its the emphasis on innovation, whether archaic or new, that’s the problem. We’ve made our primary evangelism tool our church buildings (modernism), instead of every Christian taking Jesus with them as they go about their daily lives (The NT example). Southern Baptists harp on evangelism while refusing to walk next door to seek the souls of their neighbors. Whether people come to our church services would be irrelevant if we are simply taking the name of Jesus with us on… Read more »
As we discuss this “growing/not growing, innovative/not innovative, narrow/broad” or whatever may be contributing to the SBC being less than we can be I think it is interesting that the fastest growing protestant denomination in the world is the Seventh Day Adventists. I just read that and was quite surprised. I don’t mean this to be a Adventist bashing, but I wonder what is the connection between inerrancy and growth? As far as I know, Adventists are Bible-loving people but I don’t think they argue much about inerrancy (Calvinism, etc.) We won the “Fight for the Bible,” but the victory… Read more »
Hey Frank,
This may sound like I’m doubting you, but I’m not.
Where did you get the 2.5% figure because I just came across some literature (albeit biased literature) that was proclaiming the Assemblies of God as the fastest growing denomination.
I would love to get my hands on your info so I could compare the two and try to figure out how they’re setting up their math in order to set themselves apart.
Thanks,
bill
I don’t remember now, it might have been on a website news item.
The figure for the Assemblies may be because Seventh Day Adventists are not considered evangelical, or even protestant by some surveyors.
As I recall, the Adventists were even ahead of the Mormons. Sorry I don’t remember.
The National Council of Churches is the only group I know of that puts out a yearly report on American churches in terms of membership growth/decline. NCC asks denominational bodies to self-report these stats. So, if you’ll notice, the African-American groups, specifically the Baptist groups, have not reported a change in membership size in years. The 2011 report had these stats: Mormons – + 1.42 percent AoG – +.52 percent Jehovah’s – +4.37 percent Church of God (Cleveland, TN) – +.38 percent Seventh-Day Adventist – +4.32 All these numbers of course vary year to year. But in the last handful… Read more »
Thank you to both Frank and BDW. As soon as I get home, I’m going to research AoG’s claims and how they set up their math.
If I find anything interesting, I’ll post it here.
Thank you to both Frank and BDW. As soon as I get home, I’m going to research AoG’s claims and how they set up their math.
If I find anything interesting, I’ll post it here.
If the “brick and mortar church is doomed” (and I am not claiming that it is not) what alternative was proposed at the conference? What does the post “brick and mortar church” era look like? Do we revert to home churches or do we begin meeting in schools and community centers?
It is very frustrating when these types of claims are made but no solutions or possible solutions are also given.
It all goes away in the end — all the bricks, all the school buildings and community centers, wherever you are meeting.
Only two things on earth right now are eternal — the Word of God, that stands forever, and people.
Why not concentrate on proclaiming/delivering to people the Word of God?
Why do we make it complicated? Mark 16:15
Am I wrong that when someone puts on a conference, they generally like to have people pay money to attend. To get a crowd one might toss out a catchy, provocative, engaging title, some personalities, some white hot church plants, some of the stuff that will attract folks. Fine. And then the promoters will certainly dispense with the sameold, sameold stuff, will trot out the testimonies, some personalities, some chicken little types? Won’t they have some major league ‘look what we’re doing’ folks, and isn’t it pretty standard to pooh pooh the red brick, white columned crossroads Baptist Church that… Read more »
The conference didn’t say the brink and mortar is doomed, I did. They actually looked at the combination of church planting and the mega church movement. I think the days of buying property and building a building will be over and church will become much more communial. Property values, it’s harder and harder to get tax exempt status. It’s not looking good folks, we gotta look up once in a while.
I heard Hirsh speak at a church planting conference a couple of years ago. He had done some studies that showed that only about 30 percent of the population would even consider going to contemporary church models. So he is looking at more than just the typical brick and mortar churches. What I took away from his message was that these types of churches better consider different means and methods to reaching a broader spectrum of the population. I was encouraged as a pastor of a traditional church that we still have an appeal to most people in our rural… Read more »
And, then there are the studies that show 75% of the people surveyed would be hghly likely to attend a church if someone invited them.
When I was running for office at one time my campaign manager said something about “studies” that I’ve never forgotten: “Figures don’t lie, but liars will figure.”
I don’t think we are going to be able to “survey” ourselves into revival — but that’s just my opinion based upon a survey of myself.
Frank- You have stumbled on one of the BIGGEST problems in the SBC and it is not about theology or methodology it is about obedience. I doubt the figure, but you cite that 75% of surveyed people would go to a church “if someone invited them.” – This answer bypasses Sunday school or small groups – it bypasses the hymnal or the power-point – it bypasses stand-alone-brick-&-mortar or the store-front-strip-center location. We seem to want growth (mostly for the wrong reasons) but fail to do the simplest and most obedient thing: tell people about Jesus and invite them to attend… Read more »
Greg, are you saying Christians are commanded to invite people to corporate worship?
Way to miss the point Mark, but I applaud your sarcastic wit. Makes me smile.
Sarcastic wit is always appreciate at SBC Voices!
Dan B., what made me ask the question is Greg’s sentence that stated, “We seem to want growth (mostly for the wrong reasons) but fail to do the simplest and most obedient thing: tell people about Jesus and invite them to attend church with us.” So are we commanded to invite people to corporate worship? I basically agree with Greg. I would say that people are more prone to invite people to church, but never tell them about Jesus. It is easier to invite someone to church and expect someone else, i.e. the pastor during his sermon, to share the… Read more »
Mark, I eat with Dan just about once a week. If you want to get into a sarcasmathon with him, make sure you come armed and ready!
Not much more I enjoy than an SBC Sarcastithon!
So, if people you lead are not willing to share the gospel, do you tell them you don’t want them inviting anyone to church and putting the responsibility on the pastor or someone else to share the gospel for them? As a pastor, if someone is willing to invite someone else to church in such a winsome manner they actually attend, then, I feel privileged to get the opportunity to share the gospel with them. Sure, I wish everyone was an Arthur Blissett or Dwight Moody, but if all they feel comfortable doing is inviting someone to church, then, I’ll… Read more »
Greg,
Part of the hold up might be we don’t think Jesus is a powerful enough personality to win people to Himself, and/or we don’t think our church services are meaningful enough to capture the attention of a non-believer.
It seems we lack complete trust in the power of the Holy Spirit and we are perhaps a little “embarrassed” about our church services — and probably a little of both.
‘excitement’ isn’t one of the ‘fruits’ of the Holy Spirit
I have plenty of critiques of the way “Church” is operated in America. But…
I do enjoy the irony, though, of a major “brick-and-mortar” conference gathering thousands of people with great speakers, excellent worship bands, fancy promotional flyers and websites…and then bagging on American churches for doing the same thing.
Josh, EXCELLENT!
Don’t be to hard on a conference because I integrated some of their ideas with my own.
We focus as a people far too much on the mechanics of our faith, the music, the buildings, our organizations, the mission structures that support evangelism. We need to see the difference between the structures which are important but temporary and the life within which is eternal. It is in fact the life within that was the point of our evangelism and our structures. Baptists spend far too much time and engergy maintaining the structure so that there are not enough cycles to focus on the life of Christ within us that are message bearers for in the world. We… Read more »
It would be interesting to see how ‘church was done’ 100 years ago. I’m sure it was quite a bit different than it is today. Sometimes we get so tied to the tradition of how things are now that we can’t look outside the box. I’m not for wholesale chucking of how we do things now, but showing how things have changed over time may calm the fears of those averse to change and give hope to those who want change now. We claim to be people of the Book, but sometimes we seem more interested in preserving the status… Read more »
The ‘physical structures’ aren’t ‘the Church’, of course. And the Apostles were not advocating the building of physical structures or ‘innovations’ that took the focus off of Our Lord. Their focus was to guard closely what they had received and to pass it on intact to the ones who would receive the Christian mysteries, so that nothing was lost of what Christ had given to them. On Earth, the ‘Church’ is visible, but it is not ‘enclosed’ in brick and mortar. It’s exclusiveness lies in the truth that the Church can be for us a sanctuary in this world from… Read more »
Aaron said, “studies that showed that only about 30 percent of the population would even consider going to contemporary church models”.
Here’s where we need to be careful not to fall into the seeker sensitive/mega church idea of taloring church to the fit desires of pagans.
You make very excellent points. I came across the bible that I used heavily when I was involved in the youth group of the church that I still attend twenty-five years later. In it, I found an old worship bulletin so I decided to compare and contrast it against the one that I picked up on Mother’s Day. Now, please be aware that a little over twenty-one years has passed between the two bulletin. They are formatted the same and still printed on the same paper stock since the church has not changed printing companies nor invested in their own… Read more »
Bill,
I dare say your informal experiment would have the same results at a lot of churches I have been a part of over the years. I couldn’t help but chuckle that the song for the choir special was the same one though. Perhaps a new saying is in order. If it ain’t fixed, don’t break it.
I just had this conversation with someone in my church. When we are so fixated on nothing changing, we look like we’re just stubborn. If we would permit at least a few things to be different, when we highlight that unchanging truth is firm, we might have more credibility.
Instead, most of us spend too much time trying to be some past decade—be it the 50s, 70s, or 90s.