As the MLK50 Conference sponsored by the ERLC and TGC came to an end last night, I was both encouraged and discouraged. I was incredibly encouraged with what was said, the amazing people I met, the hard truths expressed, and the desire of 4000 people to bring racial healing to the church under the blood of Jesus and the Cross of Christ. But, upon reflection I was also a bit discouraged that it has taken so long to get here, and I left concerned that we would easily fall back into our centuries old pattern of “going slow” when it came to all of us coming together in sacrificial love and unity in Christ. We must all excel in intentionally pursuing people from all races and backgrounds with gospel reconciliation, in joining together and submitting to godly leadership of different races, and to caring about the needs and concerns of people who are racially and ethnically different from white majority culture in SBC churches. We must do this with a vision of Revelation 5 and every nation, tribe, people, and tongue gathered before the Throne of God worshiping the Lamb.
Southern Baptists cannot “go slow” in our pursuit of racial/ethnic diversity in leadership.
We cannot wait.
It has already been too long. Going slow in order to not offend white people who feel threatened when we talk about racial reconciliation or true unity and mutual submission one to another in our churches so they will then supposedly hear the gospel without it being muddied with “social” concerns both cheapens the gospel and ignores the fact that Jesus purchased the ethnos with his blood. This is what Emerson and Smith pointed out in Divided by Faith. Going slow and not wanting to offend white people holding power caused baptists migrating South to affirm slavery 200 years ago. Going slow on confronting racial division and white supremacy ultimately led to the carnage and devastation of the Civil War. It gave us Jim Crow and its Biblical defenses. Going slow led us to reject King when he was non-violently addressing evil and calling us to repentance (see Letter From Birmingham Jail on the problem with the white moderate “going slow”). King has been dead for 50 years. The Montgomery Bus Boycott was over 60 years ago. The Civil War ended over 150 years ago. We can’t wait.
Going slow, while appearing to be wise, gave cover for great evil to be committed without being adequately opposed in our own country. There are many examples, but a local one for me that is largely forgotten occurred In 1836 when the government forced marched 10,000 Creek Indians through the streets of Montgomery from concentration camps where they were held in East Alabama and sent them on their way to Indian Territory. During the the same time period, coffels of slaves in chains were marched, reportedly 1000 in an average day, from the Carolinas and Virginia to sell in the slave markets in downtown Montgomery. Going slow caused us to ultimately affirm all of that because we didn’t want to rock the boat and lose our ability to “evangelize” the slaveholder and white farmer by offending him on slavery. That was 150-200 years ago. It was 1800 years after Christ. Going slow has an awful track record. This, and the reality of the Cross of Christ and the nations purchased by His blood is why we can’t wait.
Going slow has now given us resegregated schools, extreme poverty, continually segregated churches, immigrant/Refugee rejection, and growing alienation between races and ethnic groups manifesting in social and political division that threatens to tear our nation apart. We need to dispel the progressive myth that racial division will automatically get better and heal over time. As Dr. Christina Edmonson said at the MLK50Conference, “Time does not heal sin. Repentance from sin and turning to the grace of God heals sin.” We can’t wait.
White Southern Baptists in 2018 are in dire need of hearing from, being in relationship with, and being led by godly black and brown voices who also share with us the inheritance of the gospel and the fellowship of the Spirit. We can’t wait. We need to recognize, submit to, call, raise up, draft, and appoint godly, qualified, and anointed leadership from every race and ethnicity. And we need to be intentional about it because we understand that where you stand affects what you see and we need leaders who can see from all perspectives. Right now. We cannot wait.
We’ve waited too long, telling people to pay their dues and bide their time. Meanwhile, decades have slipped by. And still some say, “go slow.” Worse yet, when we do call forward a godly and qualified person of color to lead us, some claim that we are pushing quotas or are Marxist because we recognize that in addition to strong leadership and qualifications, we are in desperate need of minority leadership. Ironically, those objections never arise when one white person after another is nominated for leadership decade after decade, as though “whiteness” was a default position. Going slow has not eradicated this objection.
We cannot Wait.
We need to hear from and be led by mature believers who are minorities because their experience and wisdom is vital for us all … together. And, we need them to lead us. As I talk, meet, pray, and serve alongside black and brown brothers and sisters in Christ across the country, I am struck, humbled, grieved, and also encouraged by how different their perspective is on life in America and in our churches than white Christians. We cannot be a whole or healthy body of Christ in America unless we are truly joined together in mutual submission and co-labor on an equal footing, not just inviting “them” in to have a seat at “our” table, but actually rebuilding the table together so it belongs to all of us. That sometimes means we are privileged to be able to go to their table too.
In 1964, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., took his Letter From Birmingham Jail written in 1963 and turned it into a book called Why We Can’t Wait. It was a response to a call from white moderate ministers in Birmingham to go slow, give it time, and things would rectify themselves concerning segregation and racism … eventually. They opposed his direct non-violent action in Birmingham and said that things were progressing well in race relations and he didn’t need to come in from the outside to stir things up. He opposed that thinking, said injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, and said that black people had already waited too long. He said the white church was at a crossroads and that if it failed to call for justice, it would be rejected by the next generation. His words largely proved true.
We can’t wait.
__________________________
In 2015, the Executive Committee of Southern Baptists issued a report entitled “A Review on the Southern Baptist Convention’s Progress on Racial Reconciliation, 1995-2015.” This report was approved, voted on, and adopted as an official report of the full Southern Baptist Convention in Columbus, Ohio. It charts the progress that has been made in increasing racial diversity, and it also states that we still have much progress to make. A series of recommendations were made. Some are being followed. There is progress. This report was from just 3 years ago, but it shows us that things don’t just change because time passes. We have to work for it. We can’t wait.
Over the past 3 years since 2015, progress has been made. There have been more appointments, resolutions have been passed addressing white supremacy, and a heightened awareness has been raised of the need for Southern Baptists of all backgrounds to work together, serve together, and submit to one another as we all submit to and follow Jesus. We have seen progress with appointments and more of an open door for participation. I am grateful for this and what has come before. But, while good, this work is only seen as progress relative to the abysmal situation that preceded it. We have a long way to go before we reach a state of “gospel normalcy” when it comes to biblical unity and Missional participation and leadership from all ethnicities in the body of Christ. We can’t wait.
We need to tell stories of what this looks like in our churches, associations, state conventions, and our entities. Things are going great in some places and progress IS being made! Wonderful! But, how do we bring that level of participation and invitation throughout the SBC on a regular, normative basis where positions for professors, deans, pastors, entity heads and staff, DOMs, missionaries, trustees, and committee members are regularly open to and filled by godly and qualified ethnic and racial minorities who are leading, ministering, starting, and developing our churches? How can we all help make that happen year after year? It is beginning. Now, let’s keep going and truly learn from one another.
We know that those who wait upon the Lord will renew their strength (Isaiah 40), but all of this was settled on the Cross almost 2000 years ago and the unity of the church that Jesus died to secure should be pursued now. There is so much more to be done in building relationships, loving one another sacrificially, listening to one another, repenting of hard hearts, forgiving one another, carrying each other’s burdens, caring more about the interests of others than ourselves, and healing the wounds and broken places caused by the sins of the past as well as the present. We have so much more work to do in welcoming and loving the immigrant and refugee and seeing the Church reach and minister Christ cross-culturally to all peoples. We are called to step in to these situations and love sacrificially.
We can’t wait.
As our nation continues to fray and tear at itself racially and ethnically, the Church of Jesus Christ has the answer flowing from the sacrificial love of from the Cross. There is so much more to be done and we have much further to go. Will the church embrace God’s call? Or, will we miss this pivotal moment? How we answer this question now will determine our future.
This is why we can’t wait.
For a more in depth study regarding Evangelicals, sacrificial love that flows from the Cross, and Why We Can’t Wait, check out When Heaven and Earth Collide: Racism, Southern Evangelicals, and the Better Way of Jesus (NewSouth Books, 2014).
Let me preface my comment by saying that I believe the church of the Lord Jesus Christ is the most ethnically diverse body in all of heaven and earth. I look forward to being in that company of saints at the last trumpet when the dead are raised and we’re all together in the new heaven and the new earth. With that said, I know of nothing that is keeping any brother from any affiliated Baptist church from being nominated to any position within the Convention or her entities.
Nothing has kept it from happening, but it hasn’t been happening. And, where it has started happening, it is very slow. So, something has kept it from happening. It’s worth figuring out what that is and addressing it.
In part it hasn’t happened because though the churches that affiliate with the Convention are ethnically diverse the general membership of those same churches are not. We nominate who we know. White Southern Baptists know white Southern Baptists. Black Southern Baptists know black Southern Baptists. Asian Southern Baptists know Asian Southern Baptists. Latino Southern Baptists know Latino Southern Baptists, and so on. Now I am unable in good conscience to nominate a man I do not know because I do not know “the content of [his] character.” So, to have more ethnically diverse nominees you need messengers from all the… Read more »
Is it possible that many in the convention serve because they long to serve… have been asked to serve by those who know them… ? This is part of their way of defining their ministry and the have invested much along the way to be able to serve the SBC as they do. These fine and faithful servents who are white are not thinking of stepping aside of what they long to do. They love their role and praise God for the opportunity. How many whites who are serving will glady and willfully step down because someone says we need… Read more »
Let me add… term limits to serve on things like Trustee Boards of all SBC entities should be instituted.
Jon and Robert,
Thank you brothers.
Usually I hear we need to change, to become more diverse, but there is very little in the way of constructive instruction on how that can be accomplished. Though your suggestions are just beginning steps, at least they are positive steps/suggestions.
Alan, I appreciate your passion brother. But… “He opposed that thinking, said injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, and said that black people had already waited too long.” This is secular talk. Not Christian. Here is what justice is: since you have sinned you have earned eternal death and the wrath of God. You want justice, that is justice. Or duty as Christians is to tell the world of justice and to also tell them of the only way to escape the justice they have earned: the Gospel, which is the mercy of God. That isn’t to say… Read more »
Mike, you are ignoring the numerous places in scripture that call for justice between human beings and for the people of God to do justice and work toward a just society. Personal response to the Divine justice includes both personal repentance and faith in the gospel AND pursuing the kingdom of God and His righteousness now. The Bible calls for the people of God to pursue justice not only to proclaim it.
Todd, No I am not. We as individuals and as congregations should treat all others by the golden rule. That is my goal and that is the goal of the congregation I attend. That is different than expending our energy to right the wrongs of secular society: in this case to give secular justice to a certain class of people. We in the USA are not the nation of Israel not does God expect us to use secular thinking to right wrongs. God has appointed governments to do that. Vote your conscience. Please show the Scriptures that say the Christian’s… Read more »
Just so I’m clear, voting is ok and preaching the gospel is ok but taking steps to end injustice and specific calls to action are secular and to be avoided? For example, William Carey was right to preach the gospel to Indian Hindus but wrong to transcribe/translate secular Indian works and to call for the Indian government to outlaw Sati? Religious conservatives today are right to preach pro-life sermons and vote for pro-Life candidates but wrong to fund crisis pregnancy centers or call for the defunding of PP? We can preach the unity and full dignity of all races from… Read more »
Todd, You want us to call for this or that? I fail to see how words of calling are going to change anything. Note that two suggestions have been made: term limits and minorities nominating minorities. Will those sugeestions followed change anything? Maybe, but it is at least something. Simply calling on change to happen without soecifying a realistic approach to how such change can happen is just talking into the wind. Progress? Calling for progress without any concrete idea of how to get from A to B is useless talk. Why does the SBC need to lookj at the… Read more »
This is why we can’t have nice things.
You got this Todd?
As for biblical (NT) scripture, we can start with just a couple from the book of Acts. Ethnic unity was important enough in the Jerusalem church (Acts 6) for them to choose a group of Greek deacons to address a racial imbalance in the way Jewish vs. Greek widows were being treated. The unity of the Jewish and Gentile church was enough for them to call a council to address theological issues between Law-keeping Jewish believers and Gentile believers (Acts 15).
Todd, Okay then. Start a denomination by appointing a diverse ethnic group of men to lead it. Or for the SBC, plead with those in power to step down so other men can step in. How long are we going to keep calling for diversity? Allan said in the OP we have waited too long. He says we can’t wait. I guess he means we cant wait anymore. But does he offer an iota of a suggestion to how to implement chnage now or even soon? Nope. Have you? Call a council to discuss theological differences. What are the theological… Read more »
Mike, I have lots of ideas. I can make lots of suggestions. I’ve written articles, books, and have consulted and spoken on this issue for several years. I’m doing quite a bit along these lines, actually. But, for whatever idea I put forward here, someone would argue with it and say it isn’t what needs to happen. So, how about if we all work on ideas where we are locally and in our churches, associations, conventions, entities, trustee boards, and nationally and we all try to figure out how to build relationships and identify and raise up leaders cross culturally… Read more »
Secular thinking in this area is not folly Mike. In fact they are well ahead of us in this area. To say that secular thinking on this is folly is folly in itself. This is 2018 and yet we are years behind the secular world in the area of diverse ethnicity. They are doing what the church should have been doing when slavery was still around and before.
What was folly and downright sin was the stance Southern Baptists in particular took during the Civil Rights Movement.
Debbie,
I agree 100%
Debbie,
The church includes people of all ethnic backgrounds and cultures except of unreached people groups.
Mike, your position is not biblical. To say there is no biblical requirement or mandate for how Christians are to treat other Christians and that if Christians sin against other Christians then the only expectation for those sinned against is judgment and hell and gratefulness for God’s Mercy in salvation is just ridiculous. No, the perspective I express here is not at all secular. Your perspective, however, would mean that is one believer abuses, oppresses, sins against, and defrauds another believer, then the only thing the believer sinned against can do is thank God they themselves aren’t going to burn… Read more »
So, Mike, our response is to tell the oppressed, mistreated, etc, just to “deal with their feelings?” To contemplate the gospel until they overcome their feelings? To a raped woman you would say, contemplate the gospel until you get your feelings in line. To a world broken by sin, our only message is “work on your feelings by contemplating the gospel.” I believe the fullness of the Holy Spirit has greater power than just navel-gazing. The church has no responsibility to seek to make things better? Just contemplate the gospel and work on our feelings? Of course, the fruit of… Read more »
Dave, Who is being oppressed? Is not having a representative group mixed through the hall of SBC administrations repressive? Oppressive? Is that what is nessecary for black Christians to live holy unto the Lord? I think not. They lived holy unto the Lord while slaves. Who is being mistreated, Dave? How? Who are you talking about? Raped women? I’m not talking about raped women, why are you bringing it up. for shock value? Thats pretty low. To a broken world, our message has or always should be that the sufferings of this world cannot be compared to the glory that… Read more »
As a white 65 year old Southern Baptist living in San Diego I agree with this post 100% The time is now for Southern Baptists to pursue racial/ethnic diversity in leadership. There are two top leadership positions open, the time is now to see new, different faces in these positions.
Nominate someone.
Talk is cheap.
Discussing race is difficult, and usually unproductive, but I will say a few things that I believe are important in this discussion. The Bible clearly teaches that people are not to be treated differently based on race. So, in Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile. As Supreme Court Chief Justice Roberts has said, “The way to stop discriminating against people on the basis of race is to stop discriminating against people on the basis of race.” The SBC should invite all people, regardless of their race, to be full participants in the SBC. When elections are held, people are… Read more »
So, I agree with all of this. But, the problem involves history and past systemic, structural, and personal sin. In a perfect world, race would not matter and we never would have had segregated churches. We would not have had a significant number of SBC churches with closed door policies against blacks up until the 1960s and 70s, and some even later. There was a long standing and historic block against minorities participating in our churches and leadership. Calling for intentionality in bringing godly, qualified people from all races and ethnicities into SBC leadership is not now suddenly focusing on… Read more »
The most obvious flaw in Mike’s brutally flawed argument is that ALL of our discussion is about racial harmony in the church, not in the world.
Dave,
And yet my first remarks included this quote:
“He opposed that thinking, said injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, and said that black people had already waited too long.”
1. “Black people” includes more than just Christians.
2. “Justice everywhere” includes outside of the church.
3. The context was beyond the church. MLK was not just fighting for black christians.
Thus this quote was more than just about racial harmony within the church.
And i am not against racial harmony in the church.
I am against calling such moves justice. They do not bring justice.
Mike, King was writing to white ministers who were telling him to slow down and stop what he was doing in Birmingham. They said he was an outsider who had no place to tell them about their business and that things were actually going well. But, there definitely was injustice at this time. This discussion was happening between people who claimed to be Christians. Is there no room for one Christian to say to another that the way they are treating people – or what they are tolerating – is wrong? I’m glad you’re not against racial harmony in the… Read more »
Alan, Outside the church walls? I have no idea what you mean by that word walls. Those white ministers were wrong. I am nt defending them in the least. There was open discrimiation and outright hatred against blacks, saved and unsaved and it was sin. And the SBC was wrong. Those members share in that sin. But the narrative today is that blacks can get justice by reparations. And by other worldly means. Now you were speaking of not waiting, not of justice. But I also applied MLK words to today, where justice is a key word both inside and… Read more »
“So start nominating those whom you wish to see serving.”
Mike, I do.
Good!
I hope your nominees find success.
But what if they don’t.
What then is the solution?
Am I accountable for the sins of my forefathers, or only for mine? You agree that quotas are not desired, but again hold that “intentional” means must be considered in order for us to go forward. Beyond a certain mindset that we should consider all people regardless of race for positions of leadership in the SBC, how would you go about implementing your desired “intentional” means? One can go about with the “right mind” and still fall short of results. Would you then consider the process a “failure” without obvious results? Or does “change” only include success in those outcomes… Read more »
Alan: Totally agree that there needs to be intentional outreach to all minorities. There should be some effort here. And Baptist doctrine, as much if not more than all other Christian doctrine, should be appealing to minorities. There is no priestly class. The priesthood of all believers. Baptists, by comparison, are not high and mighty in the eyes of the world. We grew because of outreach and love. And despite the negative history toward minorities, think of the investment of treasure and lives both domestically and internationally to bring the Gospel to all peoples. I can’t think of another denomination… Read more »
Alan, I get what you are saying. But that has nothing to do with justice. And besides calling for change and saying we cant wait does nothing more than what was done 20 years ago. Consider this: it is as unjust to exclude blacks from participation for both the excluded ones as well as for those not excluded. The call for racial diversity shoud never be based on doing justice for past wrongs. It should be done for the enriching the body. Exclusion is made based on the Gospel: those that preach a different one are to be excluded. But… Read more »
Acts 6. Grecian widows complained, Greek deacons selected. First church fight over race, still fighting. Lewis, the Acts 6 text, totally contradicts ur thesis that people weren’t selected based on race.
Dwight – a slight correction. The “race” of the “Grecian widows” were Jewish. The “race” of the appointed were Jewish. The argument was over the perceived slight of home grown local people and those who lived outside of Palestine and spoke primarily Greek. Now you can make your argument stand that people were appointed primarily to settle a dispute made by the “out” group. But it was only a temporary settlement as these people later went home to be the Gospel where they lived after Stephen’s death.
Yes, it was a cultural division and not a racial division. But, since the concept of “Race” and racism, especially related to “blackness” is itself a relatively modern construct (See Racism: A Short History, by George M. Frederickson). But, still, that cultural division between Hellenized and Hebraic Jews was very strong. And, the gap was bridged intentionally and not just by telling people to get over it and move on. That isn’t what you are saying. I’m just making another point.
Thank you for affirming I would not say that. I disagree with Frederickson (or at least in the way you are proffering him here – I will have to go read the essay myself). My view is that race and racial distinctions have been present in the human condition all the way back in human history. It always manifests itself from the in group pointing the differences between themselves and the out group (Egyptians enslaving the Israelites is one example of historic racism based upon the clash of ethnic identity). In my view the “gap” can be breached without furthering… Read more »
Frederickson’s point is that discrimination based on skin color or genetic grouping is a modern thing. Of course, there has always been tribalism and xenophobia. Conflicts between people groups, nations, tribes, etc. has been around since the beginning. But, to base discrimination on an ideological concept of Race is a new thing. We look back at the past through the lens of racial conflict and assume it was all based on Race instead of tribe, family kinship, nation, etc. But, “Race” was not a thing the way we see it now. At least that is Frederickson’s thesis – and others… Read more »
Rob, here is another essay by Audrey Smedley that further explains Frederickson’s contention. Race is a social construct. “Origin of the Idea of Race” “Toward the end of the eighteenth century, the image of Africans began to change dramatically. The major catalyst for this transformation was the rise of a powerful antislavery movement that expanded and strengthened during the Revolutionary Era both in Europe and in the United States. As a consequence proslavery forces found it necessary to develop new arguments for defending the institution. Focusing on physical differences, they turned to the notion of the natural inferiority of Africans… Read more »
Historically I do not believe that this analysis is accurate (again I am at a disadvantage for not reading the essay(s) – I will do so soon). In example the caste system in classical Hinduism is a direct application of “race” distinctions and ideology that you are arguing can only be found in the modern era (the name of the doctrine of caste “Varuna” means “color” – a distinction that was imposed by the ancient Indo-Aryans upon the Dravidians in ancient India all because of skin color – and an ideology (shucks an entire religious system – there you go)… Read more »
Since both Frederickson and Smedley are highly esteemed historians and are not ignorant of the subject that they studied and wrote upon, my suggestion would be to see if they are saying something different from what you think. I mean, I get disagreeing with me because, who am I, after all? But, perhaps reserving judgment until you see the way they explain their thesis might be in order. I do think you make a good point regarding the caste system in India. I’ve been to India ten times and have have studied the historic, religious, and social situation there both… Read more »
I have no doubt that these historians are “highly esteemed” in their own venues. As to weather they have considered ancient historical data or have centered themselves predominantly with American and in certain instances European data points is the question here. They also could be the product of their times as academia goes these days with various displays of virtue signaling found throughout the academy. However I will approach their work with an open mind and see where that leads me despite my presuppositions. Historical Hinduism and caste has only one entry point: by birth in which there is no… Read more »
I understand, and like I said, you raise a good point here. I am familiar with that history in India. I am not sure that it is considered the same as what Frederickson or Smedley are talking about. However, it is definitely worth considering. At any rate, no one denies that there have been other kinds of conflicts both tribal, ethnic, and national as well as with religions since the beginning. The question is whether they took on the form of “racism” the way we see in the West. It would be an interesting study to compare the Hindu caste… Read more »
Thank you Alan for a very amiable discussion. Of course there are differences between the differing outbreaks of racism in history and throughout the world. The American form is unique in history as well as it’s current disposition. My argument is that “Racism” as sin is not unique – it is as old as humans are. And while the American version is unique, it is not totally dissimilar to forms of racism throughout history – as I demonstrated. Wherever humans live, no matter the continent or culture you will find racism in what ever form it manifests itself.
Rob
Rob,
Racial distinctions did not develop until after the Tower of Babel dispersion, and occurred naturally due to the loss of genetic information that occurs when large groups are isolated. Elevating race to a “God-designed” status would be at the expense of those of mixed race, since they fall short of the divinely intended ideal. The image of God transcends genetic differences.
Ken,
Good point.
The usa world once was almost exclusively black or white. But it is no longer like that. My granddaughter is not from a one colored set of parents. We have people of mexican descent, asian descent, and other various descents mixed together in our chidren and grandchildren, in our churches and neighborhoods, in our schools and workplaces.
Should we also intentionally point some mixed -descent people as well? What about non black or white people, intentionally appoint soe of them as well?
Whenever skin color becomes a criteria for such things justie is thrown out the window.
But it was done to meet basic needs. What basic needs are not being met?
I respectfully see that text as meeting a practical need in a practical way. Greek speaking widows needed. The church selected Greek speaking servants to help them. The church did not discriminate against others who may have wanted to help by counting their ethnicity against them. Look at the rest of the epistles. The strain between Jew and Gentile was the issue of Jewish ceremonial law. I know of no text discussion ethnic power sharing. In fact, the “no Jew, no Greek” language comes, I believe, from Galatians. We find no situation in the NT where there was the racial… Read more »
Could not have said it better Louis. Thank you.
Ethnic/Racial divisions, for our discussion and purposes, were developed in the New World and started with economic arrangements, then moved to law, then culture, then religion. And on and on. Trying to undo the effects of these sinful actions and their affect on the unity of the church requires intentionality because they were intentionally done and had long lasting results.
That is the question that needs to get beyond vague generalities to specificity. Beyond prayer and agreeing to a mindset of being intentional, what other proposals do you bring to the table? In the context of this post you have not posited any so far.
Rob
Holy Spirit intentionally sent diverse nationalities to the cradle(Psalm 72: 10, 15); in Jesus’ genealogy(Matthew 1, 4 ladies were non Jewish); at Jacob’s well(John 4); @ The Cross(An African, Roman Soldiers, an Jews were involved); in the countries named in The Great Commission(Acts 1: 8); In intentionally selecting Greek Speaking men 2 serve, Greek Speaking widows, Greeks were racially diverse, moreso than the Hellenistic Jews); in the diverse leadership of the Early church (Acts 13:2); in an African getting saved in Acts 8; a Midfle Eastern man in Acts 9; & a Italiaian in Acts 10. Even in the diverse… Read more »
Yes my brother, the Sovereign God intentionally did all of those things. Though I do not understand how this bolsters your argument. Are you saying we take a passive approach and allow God to work and invite us to His work? Or do you believe that we have an obligation to be intentional? Not sure what exactly you are wanting us to do if your argument is that God is sovereign and intentional. Perhaps I am missing something that I am not quite getting from your reply here.
Rob
Dwight,
They were selected because they met the needs of both the church as a whole and the needs of some individuals. Those indiviidual needs were needs that needed to be met. What needs need met for non-white SBC christians that are not being met currently?
Not saying there isn’t any, but I think it is pertinent to know.
Dwight is correct here. I don’t see how on earth this comment gets down votes. Acts 6 is a clear passage that shows leaders chosen specifically from among one ethnic group to address a unity issue among ethnic groups in the church.
Todd it’s clear as day. Louis, Rob have no underlying ill will, or sinister racial motives-not in the least bit-when they argue against intentionality in being diverse, drove the ethnic group selected to serve the Grecian widows, or the intentionality found in various parts of Scripture. But to ignore, deny, or explain away, what’s apparent to so many of us, begs the question many ethnic SBC persons & prospective ethnic Pastors/Churches ask: why belong to an organization where u have to fight to be included or for cross cultural representation to be achieved by design, not by happenstance. The vitriol… Read more »
Thank you Dwight for not impugning any ill will or sinister racial motives at my feet. Would you mind giving your word “intentional” a definition? Let me help. Discrimination – “the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex” based on Racism, “…prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior.” We have agreed that both Racism and the Discrimination spawned by Racism is sin (if we were Catholic we would say “venal” sin). Both of… Read more »
Rob, the practical result of your line of thinking is that Blacks would remain @ the back of the bus, with a few exceptions. Our Sovereign God was not being racist or discriminatory when He intentionally diversified leadership in the first Gentile congregation. You seemingly object to the SBC emulating God in this matter. We will never agree on this issue. Consequently, it causes me to understand why all the ethnic Fellowship’s in the SBC exists. It appears the absence of minority leadership in the SBC is intentional & satisfactory to the majority, just as Blacks excluded from MLB was… Read more »
One reason for all the ethnic fellowships in the SBC is because not everyone speaks Ayapaneco.
I object my brother using sinful means to equal some idea of good along the lines that “two wrongs never make right.” You understand what racism and discrimination mean for it has been inflicted on you – why do you wish to intentionally inflict the pain of discrimination on others who are also guiltless to make right that wrong? I am not against emulating the Acts 6 model. A part of our body perceives they are being slighted. What the Apostles did was “make” new positions of service that did not exist before that moment to meet those needs. Perhaps… Read more »
Dwight, What bus? is not the Judge of all just? Does He not reward the sufferings of His people in the age to come? Having said that, I do not care if the SBC choosers intentionally choose non-whites for positions. Let them. And may we all be blessed by their [the non-whites] service. Speaking for many, but not all, I am sure, I care not what color a person’s skin is but the character and qualities they bring. But you care about skin color. You think something can be gained by caring about skin color. So n the one hand,… Read more »
Mike White said, “So n the one hand, you and Allan and a host of others decry discrimination based on skin color whie on the other argue for it. The Biblical way is not to discriminate based on skin color or sex or money or anything of this world. And the objection is we must discriminate to make up for wrongs done. Two wrongs dont make a right.“ Speaking only for myself, I can say that is profoundly untrue. I have never argued for discrimination based on skin color. I have been really clear what I am asking for –… Read more »
I am ALL IN for racial diversity to be received and seen in the SBC. Here is a way… Let us elect an African American President (again) and give him the responsibility to appoint only non-whites to the Committee on Committees and any other appointment he would be responsible for. If it needs to begin now, there are too many whites in leadership who only know whites (in the larger number sense). Putting a few non-whites every year on the C on C will take decades to see any significant difference. Two to three years of such intentional structuring can… Read more »
Alan, My mistake then. I apolgize for attributing to you wrongly. As to the baiting, I am not baiting. You want change now because it cant wait. And however the Spirit leads. Are you saying you know that the choosers are not following the Spirit in the choices they are making now. Some sure are not for that is the way with man. But what if most are raying and seeking godly counsel and yet are not choosing the right people for the job? How do you know they are choosing the wrong people? How do you know the Spirit… Read more »
Okay, Mike. If things are as they should be, then there isn’t much to discuss, I guess.
Alan, Are they? The way they are supposd to be? Note that I offered a suggestion to possibly help change things. Here is what I percieve to be a problem: though there is nothing wrong with calling for greater diversity, unless there is also corresponding concrete ways to make it happen, or to attempt to make it happen, we wil still be where we are 3 years from now, and so on. Things dont change because we call for them to change. They change because those who can change them DO what needs to be done. That wouldn’t be me,… Read more »
Mike, I’ve offered lots of suggesruons. I’ve linked to reports full of suggestions. I think there are lots of concrete things we can and should do. Maybe I will write another post pointing those things out again. Thanks for the feedback.
Alan,
Hmmm. Color me confused. One moment you call it baiting to ask for suggestions and refusing to give them out. Now you are saying you have given them out and you are thinking about writing a post on them.
Well whatever. Have a great rest of the Lord’s Day.
I have given them out. I have been pretty specific. You want more. I thought you were baiting me into calling for quotas or something. You say you aren’t. Fine. I believe you. You don’t like my suggestions or think they are insufficient. I’ve tried not to get too lost in the weeds, but you say you want more. So, I say maybe I will get even more specific in the future. Now, you say you are confused. Okay.
Alan,
Looking forward to that post.
May it be full of useful and implemented ideas.
Wow Mike just wow!
Alan – I thought your quote below was a great summary. I’m sort of a ‘drive-by’ poster here but I read it a few days back and thought ‘that’s really well said.’ “We must all excel in intentionally pursuing people from all races and backgrounds with gospel reconciliation, in joining together and submitting to godly leadership of different races, and to caring about the needs and concerns of people who are racially and ethnically different from white majority culture in SBC churches. We must do this with a vision of Revelation 5 and every nation, tribe, people, and tongue gathered… Read more »
Thanks, Randy. That paragraph really is the point of what I am saying and asking for.
Thanks, Dwight, for the nice comment about me. The feeling is mutual.
I don’t know anything about the Capstone Report or the other stuff. I will look that report up to see what it is.
I believe in intentional outreach to all persons of any ethnicity in the SBC, as I have said above.
Racial discrimination, in all of its manifestations, is wrong, and clearly condemned in Scripture. Everyone stands individually before God and man, and should receive equal treatment.
No serious Christian can give weight to Capstone. It is the InfoWars of the SBC.
I don’t know who is giving the minus marks, but it’s either trolling, a sincere minus on these excellent comments, which says a lot about the person giving them, either way they are wrong in doing so even though everyone has a right to their “opinion”.
Yet they were all Jews. Ethnic differences? I think not.
Louis, Excellent post. The problem is that in order to achieve racial diversity now we have to consider people based on the color of their skin. I personally don’t care if every admin head is a person not white skinned.. maybe some day the SBC will be like that. But to think we have to go there is to do exactly what you are objecting to: treat people differently based on the color of their skin. But even that is not terrible if it promotes the greater good. But to think we need to do it to be just and… Read more »
Louis: I disagree with the statement that race is difficult to talk about. One just talks about it. I don’t see it as difficult. Maybe for those who don’t see it as a problem, which I think they see it they just refuse to acknowledge it. But talking about race is just as easy as talking about some of the other subjects we talk about. But the time for talking is over I think. It’s 2018. Martin Luther King Jr. began his work in the 60’s and earlier. It’s time we catch up don’t you think?
Thank whoever for the minus on my comments, that usually means I am on the right track in my thinking. 🙂
Ethnic minorities exist in large enough numbers in the SBC to have representation at least equal to their percentages of the membership. But one of the inherent problems I see is that most of them don’t attend or serve on the staff of the small group of megachurches from which the majority of SBC trustees and committee members come. A good friend of mine who is Mexican American pastors a Spanish speaking congregation in Chicago, and they have far more pressing needs for the $1,200 that it would take to send their pastor to the SBC meeting. So would most… Read more »
You are spot on about the lack of minority presence on the staffs where a lot of the SBC leadership comes from. That is clearly a problem. But we have looked for staff with the SBC educational background that we would like to see, who have an interest in local church discipleship. It is not easy to find. Mergers are extremely difficult things. Just try merging 2 churches. It doesn’t go well many times. I would not recommend that the SBC merge with any of the national historically African American Baptist groups. To my knowledge, those groups have not sought… Read more »
Lee,
I commend you for a positive suggestion.
What percent of SBC members are racial minorities?
Ron,
here is an article from
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/southern-baptists-efforts-at-racial-reconciliation-a-mixed-bag-review-finds/2015/06/17/db4040ba-1533-11e5-8457-4b431bf7ed4c_story.html?utm_term=.4337f6e95419
it said 27%.
Alan Cross and Dwight McKisic were both mentioned
The article said the nominating committee was 27% minorities. I was wondering about our general membership. Thanks.
Pew has a 2014 survey which says 85% are white (and 89% are absolutely certain there is a God, good to know). We get greater percentages of non-white (but not including Latino) if you break it down by main ethnic status of congregations. Any way you slice it 27% of any SBC committee being “minorities” is very high based on the overall SBC membership but then there’s the breakdown of individual churches which surely shows that most white SBC congregations are not appreciably integrated, neither are most African-American congregations affiliated with the SBC. Then there’s our practice of planting ethnic… Read more »
You are analyzing it correctly, William. The answer is that no one really knows. I’ve seen numbers from the EC that aren’t exact, but taking them in aggregate would have the SBC at somewhere around 10-15% of our makeup as ethnic/racial minority. You take the numbers from the predominately ethnic minority churches and add the estimated numbers from minorities in SBC churches and that gets you in the ballpark. But, no one really knows for sure.
Maybe someone can help me understand. I have heard at least two reasons why the SBC should intentionally appoint nonwhite skinned people to various positions. I am not against such intentional choosing, although I do not know why its necessary. The first reason was for the sake of justice. Because of the injustices of the past [and there was and it was horrific] and the injustices of today of bias and racial discrimination, which is still done by those who call Christ Lord, the white skinned leaders of the SBC should appoint nonwhite skinned people to places of prominence [like… Read more »
Alan, thank you for your post. I did not attend the MLK50 conference but have watched some of it online. As time allows , I am making my way through the speakers. Concerning the conference, I have heard a number of speakers talk about the continuing problem of racism—specifically of the systemic kind. What I have not heard are specific accounts of systemic racism or oppression. I hear about inequities in housing or education in general terms but I haven’t heard any specific instances of systemic racism, i.e where someone can’t get a house or a loan because of systems… Read more »
Lee, thanks for the question and I’m glad you’re taking the time to listen to the speakers. I believe there are some widely agreed upon instances of systemic racism that many of the speakers alluded to. I think for various reasons (time, giving detractors ammunition that would distract from their major points) many of the speakers gave generalized descriptions of systemic racism rather than getting bogged down in the weeds. Some specific examples would be police violence toward black men, disparate prison sentences for the same crimes, higher likelihood of the death penalty, over criminalization (which is/should be a conservative… Read more »
Brent,
Who are some of the people you listened to?
And i woud add to that list welfare, government housing [which is usually substandard], and quotas that reward mediocrity, among other things. The government is greatly at fault forhow it has treated nonwhites and fostered problems within their communities.
But short of not appointing more non white people to positions in our entities, what instances of systematic racism is prevalent in the SBC?
Brent, Thanks for the reply. I just watched Chandler’s message and again there is a lot of talk about systemic racism and oppression in general terms but not specific stats or data. I get that it is hard to go deep into a issue in 30 minutes timeframes but I do think it would be helpful to discuss these issues in concrete ways. I can understand the fear of pushback but I think that broad generalizations sans concrete data has the potential to create even more pushback. That being said, I was wondering if you or Alan would be willing… Read more »
Thank you, Alan. I would like to believe that we are even going slow. Unfortunately, it seems that we are going backward. I’ll believe we’re going forward when I start hearing repudiations of racist pastors, when I start seeing specific example of racism called out. As much as I hate the idea, I suspect that the SBC will divide before we go forward.
“Repudiations of racist pastors…” Who will be the grand determiners of who is and who is not a “racist pastor” and by what standard will they adjudicate? What will be the method of repudiation? Will those who hold honest differences in opinion as it relates to procedure and process relating to “racial reconciliation”, while affirming and teaching the biblical principles of intrinsic value and worth of all people created equally in the image of God, be rendered “racist” and somehow appropriately shamed? Will there be an office of social justice in Nashville staffed with those trained and ready to call… Read more »
Regarding police violence toward Black men; a little from the other side of the picture: Heather Mac Donald’s most recent book, “The War on Cops,” points out some devastating and sobering statistics: “Blacks were charged with 62 percent of all robberies, 57 percent of all murders, and 45 percent of all assaults in the 75 largest U.S. counties in 2009, while constituting roughly 15 percent of the population in those counties. From 2005 to 2014, 40 percent of cop-killers were black. Given the racially lopsided nature of gun violence, a 26 percent rate of black victimization by the police is… Read more »
Police bias is also claimed when the police person is also black. It is the outworking of a victim mentality. Are some cops racist? Of course. But many people earn their arrests.
but no one earns being shot when they are unarmed, like the man was in Sacramento a few weeks ago. Those things happen to frequently to all be accidents. It’s indicative of a wider problem.
Some cops are racists. Some shouldn’t wear the uniform. The wider problem is the high ercentage of crime done by dark skinned men.
A higher percentage of crime has little to do with unarmed men being shot. How often do you hear of unarmed white men being shot? You don’t even hear about it in numbers proportion to white men being arrested. Can’t we just admit that it is a problem with men get shot and killed, even regardless of what they are guilty of? It is a man made in God’s image that lost their life.
White people killled by cops versus those of other skin tones.
It actually happens much more often, Luke.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/
The reasons you don’t hear about it I’ll leave to your speculation…
FYI – Unarmed doesn’t necessarily mean “not a threat.”
David B,
Help me understand the point u are trying to make. It can be that the unjustified murders of unarmed Black Men by police persons are justified based on crime statistics? That can’t be ur point. But that’s the only interpretation I can glean from ur comment. Please give me the riight interpretation of ur remarks. Thanks.
Dwight, I appreciate your input. I asked in a previous comment for some clarity concerning systematic racism and oppression. I have watched much of the MLK50 conference and it seems that everyone talks about systemic racism and oppression in general terms. It seems like we need to get specific and concrete before we are going to be able to make any progress. Are you able to give some specific ways in which black people are oppressed through policies or organized discrimination in one of the areas that Brent mentioned above, i.e. criminal justice, government policies, education disparities, etc.?
Dwight, When some claim unarmed Black men are being shot down every day, and there is a war on Blacks by police, we should consider all the evidence. One consideration is that percentage wise, Blacks commit more crime than some other racial groups. Therefore, police are going to interact with African-Americans more than others. Facts show there is no war against Blacks by police. More and more police are Black themselves. For years now, many top police positions have been held by minorities. Many Black lives are saved every year by police. Roland Fryer, a Harvard professor, did a study… Read more »
When an unarmed man, of any race, is killed by police, there are a number of questions to consider. Was it a tragic accident? Was it murder? Was the victim also a criminal? Was the victim engaged in criminal activity at the time of, or just previous to, the shooting? Did he put up his hands? Was anything in his hands? Anything that may have looked threatening? When confronted by police, you should immediately drop whatever is in your hands. Were his actions or speech threatening to the police? Was there a chase? Was he trying to escape or resisting… Read more »
I don’t need any facts to know that the killing of anyone, white or black, armed or unarmed, criminal or saint, is a tragedy. The taking of any life is tragic. That should not be hard to admit.
No one is denying that loss of life is something we should certainly not relish in or belittle – but it’s also reality that sometimes what happens is necessitated and justified.
As I said – unarmed (the lax definition in these issues notwithstanding) doesn’t necessarily mean not dangerous.
Luke, No one disputes that. But an earlier comment spoke of systematic racism specifically [as one instance given among others] police violence toward black men. Have police been violent toward some black men Yes. But usually the reason has nothing to do with the color of their skin, but because they have committed crimes. What happens is the media speaks a narrative that promotes police on black violence as racism and using every example of it as examples, whether or not such violence was proper. And sometimes it is improper, and sometimes it is due to racism. But it is… Read more »
I swear you are all arguing your “points” just to be arguing because none of you, Mike, Dave C, Luke, David B, can believe what you are writing and be reasonable. I might also point out the color of your skins, which is white. It’s difficult I am sure for a person of color listen to white skinned people giving arguments that go against the true facts. I think you all need to get out more if you believe what you are writing is true. Of course I live where polite people don’t use the N word because that would… Read more »
The above statement from me would also include Marshalese, Mexicans, especially if they don’t speak English, and the list goes on.
Debbie, See this mess right here is the exact reason that it is so difficult to discuss race in a civilized manner… Because there are sanctimonious blowhards like YOU who constantly and quickly go to the “you’re racist” motif… It’s annoying, stupid, simpleminded, and sinful. You should repent. I tire of it – that’s why I stayed out of this thread for so long…it’s pointless. I haven’t read all the comments in this thread or many of the ones that you referenced so I can’t speak as to their comments – but I know for and absolute fact that I… Read more »
I also point out I have not said anything that goes against “true facts” and I stand by what I have said.
Debbie, Two things. First, if you are going to accuse your brothers of sins, you should be specific than just a general statement that they are liars and haters. Your words otherwise are unchristian and divisive needelessly. Second. I agree that racism takes place. Although what you describe may be a fear of a religion, but it may be racism as well. That there are racists doesnt mean that it is systematic. To use the police as an example, that there are racists in the police force across the country does not mean that every cop is racist or that… Read more »
Dave C: I did not insinuate that you or any of the others were racist, deniers maybe, what I described were racists that I dealt with on a daily basis in the work world. But it continually amazes me that Christians would actually say other Christians are claiming a higher moral ground but in all honesty I think we are on a higher moral horse, ground whatever word you want to place on it. I don’t say this with any sense of glee, in fact the opposite. I thought the church and Christ followers would lead in this area, not… Read more »
I’m not a denier either.
Guess I shouldn’t be surprised you double down and continue your divisive tactics.
Whatever.
So then you would agree, based on your comments, that the shootings of Philando Castile, Terrence Cutcher, and Trayvon Martin were all murder? And the recent shooting of Stephon Clark? Also murder?
The problem is the first three I mentioned were all acquitted. And they shot empty handed men who were obeying police commands.
We will see what happens with Clark but I doubt it will be much different.
Glad to know you are coming around on agreeing that shooting unarmed black men who are obeying he police is murder. Can you please convince others of that as well.
Ryan,
Also, the comment about obeying police commands – are you even serious? Do you even fact?
The only case, of 3 police related cases, you mentioned where obedience to police commands was even potentially a reality was the Castille case – and he actually had a gun.
Come on, dude.
Castile had a conceal carry and stated such to the officer. That’s a fact. And that’s what he was supposed to do. Trayvon Martin was a 14 year old kid accosted by a grown man who was acting as a security officer. He had no gun and Zimmerman had no legal authority. He started the situation by racially profiling Martin. When Trayvon defended himself, ZImmerman shot him. Catcher was not armed and was doing nothing threatening to the officer. There were five officers at the scene. The car had already been cleared. They knew he wasn’t armed. The officers in… Read more »
I deleted a whole bunch of non-productive and argumentative comments.
Move on, guys.
Trayvon Martin was not shot by police and he was hardly innocent and it wasn’t murder.
According to testimony and evidence he was on top of Zimmerman physically attacking him.
The other two cases are full of nuance and the facts present different and plausible outcomes than you simplistically seek to convey.
Murder has a specific legal definition and none of these cases fit that definition. Which is why exactly none of these people were charged with murder.
Over hyped rhetoric is not helpful.
Alan C, while I agree with your initial point that blacks are underrepresented in the leadership of the SBC, I think you could have made a clean case that blacks and other minorities need representation in the present day because they are about 20% of the SBC and everyone needs to be represented and that is reason enough. The present situation is sufficient reason. I don’t see what was gained by bringing up slavery, and Jim Crow laws and I still can’t understand the need to bring up the Indian Removal through The Trail of Tears (What do the Indians… Read more »