Some today are leading churches to begin using alcoholic wine instead of unfermented wine or grape juice in observance of the Lord’s Supper. I’ve personally heard of several such instances in recent days.
It is often presented as more biblical to use alcoholic wine in the Lord’s Supper. A careful study of ancient wine and the Bible, however, along with medical evidence and common sense, may show Baptists have actually been more biblical than some assert.
Following are a few reasons why the big majority of Baptists do not use alcoholic wine in the ordinance (not sacrament) of the Lord’s Supper:
1. Even though the word wine referred to both fermented and unfermented wine in Bible times, the word wine is never used in Scripture referring to the Lord’s Supper. Instead, “cup,” or “fruit of the vine.” The best representative of fruit of the vine would be the juice immediately pressed; rather than that processed and made alcoholic. Scripture certainly never says to use alcohol for the Lord?s Supper.
2. Alcohol is a poison that immediately impairs judgment, kills brain cells, and makes men do what they would never do in their right minds. It is made by the process of rotting good, fresh, sweet unfermented wine. Why use that to represent the precious, pure, redeeming blood of Jesus?
3. Why use a drug to represent the blood of Jesus?
4. Why teach saved children to drink that which is a recreational drug? Why lead anyone by example to drink? Why use a church ordinance to lead someone astray? Alcohol has led multitudes astray. Alcohol abuse and dependence is a real problem.
5. Unfermented wine or grape juice in no way diminishes from the symbolism and biblical teaching of the Lord’s Supper. There are no harmful side effects of unfermented wine.
6. Jesus said when He would drink again with the disciples, it would be new wine (Matthew 26:29).
7. The bread of Passover and the Lord’s Supper is to be unleavened. It naturally follows that the cup should also be without leaven or ferment.
8. There are a multitude of good reasons not to drink; there are no good reasons to drink beverage alcohol.
9. The ancients had available throughout the year, and knew multiple ways to preserve, unfermented wine. Certain kinds of good keeping grapes were kept throughout the year and pressed for fresh, sweet wine (Genesis 40:11). Ancient accounts tell of churches pressing grapes directly into the cup for the Lord’s Supper. Early churches also made unfermented wine from raisins. Jews also used these processes. Unfermented wine was common, and commonly preserved in Bible times.
The oft heard dogmatic pronouncements, “Jesus and the disciples had to use fermented wine for Passover since it was six months after the grape harvest,” and, It was impossible to prevent fermentation until the discovery of pasteurization in the 1800s,?are absolutely, demonstrably false.
10. Priests were forbidden to drink wine during worship (Leviticus 10:8-10; Ezekiel 44:21). Why should a pastor drink alcoholic wine during his pastoral duties?
11. Using new wine or grape juice will in no way cause a struggling alcoholic, or anyone else, to stumble.
12. For those who insist the Corinthians used alcoholic wine for the Lord’s Supper: (1) It never says they did. (2) “Drunk” is contrasted with not having enough to eat, and the passage is only speaking of eating, not wine. (3) The word “drunk” can obviously mean intoxicated, but it can also simply mean filled or satiated. (4) Even if the Corinthians were using alcoholic wine for the Lord’s Supper, Paul is not complimenting them but reproving them. (5) Should we use what may be the most immature church in the New Testament as our example in this regard?
Former SBC President Herschel H. Hobbs said it well. The elements used in this Supper were unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine. The word wine is not used. Some interpret fruit of the vine as wine. However, as the bread was unleavened, free of bacteria, was the cup also not grape juice? Wine is the product of the juice plus fermentation caused by bacteria. Since both elements represented the pure body and blood of Jesus, there is reason to ponder. The writer sees fruit of the vine”as pure grape juice untainted by fermentation.”
-Brumbelow is a pastor and author of “The Wit and Wisdom of Pastor Joe Brumbelow” and “Ancient Wine and the Bible.” He writes at gulfcoastpastor.blogspot.com.
Bacteria is not responsible for fermentation, yeast is. There’s no way anything they ate or drank, fresh or otherwise was free from bacteria. It is also unlikely that even fresh grape juice is free from yeast, since there is yeast in the air all around us, so grape juice is not “unleavened” in that sense.
Does anyone one know if the Jews used wine or juice for the passover meal?
I’ve had only one experience with a Jewish Seder. It was wine.
I also attended a Jewish Seder. It was wine, but juice was available.
Was it held in a Baptist church? 😉
Believe it or not I came under criticism for attending a seder.
there are no good reasons to drink beverage alcohol.
Reason #1: It tastes good. And besides, since when has a 1oz. cup been considered a beverage?
why drink alcohol when you can get most drinks “virgin?” In other words, why do you need the alcohol in it? you say you drink it for taste…why not just get a the virgin option of that drink? I think we all know why someone wants to drink alcohol. To get high. The Bible says that our joy should come from God…from being filled with the Holy Spirit…not from spirits. On another note, the taste of whiskey and beer is terrible. You have to acquire a taste for somthing that tastes that bad. Its kind of like saying you like… Read more »
David,
You said, “I think we all know why someone wants to drink alcohol. To get high.”
No. I enjoy some beer brands, red wine with meals and single malt scotch on special occasions. Good scotch especially warms the heart (and your body) and just tastes good.
Enjoyment! That’s why. And the bible says it is good to celebrate with wine, etc.
Amen, Les.
I am tired of people like Volfan always reading ill motives into others when they simply arent there.
Actually, Volfan is attributing his ill motives to others.
again, why do you need the alcohol in it? I never heard the answer to that one. Les got close…
The answer is to get high on it. C’mon, admit it.
David
Volfan, I know this will disappoint you, but my mind doesn’t work like yours. What if I said the only reason you have cable is because you want to see scantily clad women because that’s why I used to have cable. The argument is ridiculous.
“Remember that alcohol is used solely for its effect (or for some degree of inebriation), never to satisfy thirst or to cool off, since it does the opposite.” -William B. Terhune, M.D.
This statement is made, not by an abstainer, but by one who advocates the moderate use of alcohol.
David R. Brumbelow
David Brumbelow,
“Remember that alcohol is used solely for its effect (or for some degree of inebriation), never to satisfy thirst or to cool off, since it does the opposite.”
Well he made a broad sweep. Here is first hand experience. I never use alcohol solely for its effect. If he did a survey, he didn’t ask me. Never is such a strong word.
Besides, he said, “never to satisfy thirst or to cool off.” All I can say is he has never mowed my lawn.
I dont get high watching TV…lol.
David
Volfan,
Your last comment again proved you need some serious lessons in logic.
First, alcohol is a depressant, not a stimulant. Thus strictly speaking, you don’t “get high” from alcohol.
Second while caffeine is a stimulant, the process of addiction and bodily reliance on it is very similar to alcohol. Thus it begs the question, why do people drink coffee? Since coffee (caffeine) is a stimulant, one can assume due to David’s logic, that it is only to “get high”. Which would be a shock to most SBC pastors whom I would guess that something like 80% drink coffee each morning, especially Sunday morning.
You know David’s reference to getting high was speaking of intoxication. You can over indulge in coffee, but it’s not an intoxicant.
I personally do believe that the Bible teaches moderation, but that doesn’t mean that I’m pro alcohol. I think David actually asks a pretty good question.
Actually you can get caffeine intoxication, and it symptoms are very similar (albeit at a lower scale) to intoxications to other stimulants such as cocaine and nicotine. If you ever have seen someone after they have had several cups of coffee in a short time period become “hyper”, THAT is the first stages of caffeine intoxication.
I’ve been away for a while and had meant to add something here. Caffeine is the most widely used psychoactive drug in the world,1 found in coffee, tea, cocoa, chocolate candy and soft drinks. While caffeine has several positive effects such as increasing energy and mental alertness, heavy use can cause symptoms such as anxiety and insomnia. Caffeine is physically addictive,2 and withdrawal symptoms can include headaches, fatigue and irritability. So beverage alcohol is supposedly off limits for Christians? What about this caffeine? Mind altering. Why (Volfan) would a Christian drink coffee? It is potentially addictive and mind altering. Apparently… Read more »
David, Not everyone who drinks alcohol drinks to get high. That’s a very judgmental statement. You say that no one drank with you in your drinking days for the taste, I would guess then that you were drinking cheap, mass produced beer or wine. Fine beers and wine have very pleasant tastes. They are very enjoyable in moderation. Also, you mention getting some drinks (I assume you are referring to margaritas or daquaris) and I think the answer would be simply, they don’t taste like a margarita or daquari if they are virgin. They taste like fruit drinks which are… Read more »
Ryan, you have reminded me of an excellent book by Jerry Bridges, Transforming Grace. In it he says (about us putting up man made fences for not only ourselves but for others): For all of us, it may be good to have some fences, but we have to work at keeping them as just that – fences, helpful to us but not necessarily applicable to others. we also have to work at guarding our freedom from other people’s fences. Some of the fences in our respective Christian circles have been around a long time. No one quite knows their origin,… Read more »
Les…thanks…I’m glad I reminded you of a great author and a great book. Love Bridges!
David?
…..crickets….
Ryan, happy to oblige. Yes that wisdom from Bridges sort of tends to silence. That along with the biblical record that has been presented has ld to the cricket sounds.
I loved the taste of beer from the very first time…..5 years old on my dad’s lap in an Italian restuarant. And I still love the taste….just not bud, millers or coors. BTW I am 62 now and still not a drunk…..so much for that theory Biff.
I love people in the Lord who drink. I dont hate people who drink alcohol. And, if they want to be foolish and drink alcohol, that’s between them and the Lord. But, I believe that the Bible most certainly teaches that its foolish to drink fermented wine, according to the Scriptures in Proverbs. And, of course, its a sin to get intoxicated on alcohol according to Ephesians. And, Smus, for you to compare coffee with an intoxicating drink like alcohol…c’mon man…let’s stay in the realm of reality. I’ve drank whiskey and beer, and I have most certainly drank coffee. There… Read more »
BTW, back in my lost, party days; the reason I smoked weed was just for the taste. lol woooo hooo…
No, I smoked weed to get high.
David
I don’t drink to get high. I do however drink once in a while for the taste and to take the edge off of a particularly hard day.
David, brother…I really think it’s out of place to refer to people like me as foolish AND to keep on insisting that YOU know my motivation to drink wine or a beer or whatever. I do not drink to “get high.”
I don’t think I could say that everyone who uses beverage alcohol does so to “get high.” I don’t think that is always the case at all. Drinking with willful intent to get high or to get drunk is usually specific to cultural or emotional circumstances. Sometimes people do get drunk because of some specific crisis (a good or a bad crisis) or one time event and do so with willful intent. But, not every time, does every individual who uses beverage alcohol do so with the intent to get drunk or “high.” Yet, if a person drinks to “take… Read more »
Debbie,
To drink liquor to take the edge off of a hard day is drinking to get high….lol.
Les,
Why dont you just drink a coke? or a frappe from McDonalds? why do you have to drink liquor?
David
David,
You: “Why dont you just drink a coke? or a frappe from McDonalds? why do you have to drink liquor?”
Sometimes I do, though my soda preference is Diet Dr. Pepper. Having one right now. Don’t like frappes. Not even sure what they are.
Why do I “have to drink liquor?” I DON’T have to. I choose to sometimes because I enjoy it. God created it for us to enjoy. Nothing wrong with some pleasure, right?
Les,
Pleasure? so, drinking alcohol is to get high.
David
David: I drink those things too. In fact I probably drink those drinks more than I have a alcoholic drink. But I do drink moderately once in awhile. As Les said, it’s pleasure once in a while and there is nothing wrong with pleasure.
The way you react to the word pleasure you would think it’s a sin, but again I remind you that God gave us all good things to enjoy. I enjoy life David. Immensely.
David,
You: “Pleasure? so, drinking alcohol is to get high.”
Does pleasure equal getting high? If you say yes, and apparently you think it wrong to get high, then you are in a really awkward corner. Sex brings pleasure which according to you equals getting high which is something a Christian shouldn’t so. So, either you have to admit that sex is not pleasurable or you should not ever have sex again.
I think I like my line of thinking here.
David: I think your use of “getting high” is more to provoke a reaction than it is intelligent conversation. It’s rather ridiculous.
I prefer wine at dinner. However, it does not matter to me whether I drink wine or grape juice while partaking of the sacrament. At the Baptist Church I am a member at, it is only a little cup anyway.
5 and 11 are the best points made here, and I haven’t read a good argument by those who require using wine against those particular points.
Points 2, 3, and 8 stem from our traditional Baptist view of “unsubstantiation.” The arguments in those points already assume a priori that any drinking is sin, so why write the rest of the article if that view is already proven?
Seriously, you anti-alcohol folks really need to study just a BIT of oenology and the history of wine-making before making arguments. “Sweet wine” was not non-alcoholic wine, but rather what we call today “white wine”. “New” vs “Old” wine was not a reference to the amount of alcohol, but rather the vintage of the wine. You guys do know that the Romans prized “old” wines that were stored for 5, 10, sometimes 25 years. New wines were the wines that were often stored for less than a year, but could be as little as a month as the fermentation process… Read more »
I think Schmush raises a pretty good question. I’ve seen the teaching that oinos does not mean fermented wine, but the only place I have ever read that was from Baptists who were against wine. Are there historical sources that support this that are not from abstentionist sources? I’m neither an abstentionist nor an imbiber, so I’ve got no axe to grind in this discussion. But I’d like to see references to historical sources that also do not have an axe to grind that would support this idea. Honestly, this has never been a huge issue for me, so I’ve… Read more »
cricket, cricket, cricket…
Dave & Matt, Some of the answer I listed below, way down in the comments on this thread. Oinos (Greek word for wine) was not always used for unfermented wine, and I’ve never said it was. I don’t know of anyone who believes that. However, oinos was used of both fermented wine and unfermented wine. Matthew 9:17 Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved. Notice Jesus Himself in the same verse calls… Read more »
The reason why you dont put new wine into old skins, is that the old skins have already expanded and stretched due to the release of CO2 during the fermentation process. If you were to put new wine, into old skins, the production of CO2 would burst the skin. But that “new wine” most certainly was wine in which would soon (less than a month) become alcoholic. So your argument is completely and entirely moot.
My point is that Jesus called non-alcoholic, unfermented wine, by the name “wine” or oinos.
And as stated before, the ancients could have easily preserved it from fermentation had they chosen to do so.
David R. Brumbelow
And you are missing the point that that “new wine” that Jesus referred to WAS going to ferment. THAT is why he called it oinos. When an apple tree is still a sapling you dont call it something else, you still call it an apple tree even though it is not yet producing apples and wont for several years. Likewise, Jesus called that “new wine” with the word “oinos” not because he was making a point about non-alcoholic wine, but because that “new” “oinos” was going to ferment! Period, done, end of argument. Again, the reason why you dont put… Read more »
David, what I cannot find in the studies I’ve been doing is any authoritative lexicographal support for your interpretations of certain types of wine being non-alcoholic and such.
Smuschany, Whatever your interpretation of Matthew 9:17, the fact is, Jesus called unfermented wine by the name wine (oinos). To argue that all unfermented wine is alcoholic wine because that is what it is going to turn into is invalid. By that argument, as previously mentioned, all fresh meat is rotten, since that is what it is going to turn into. That is not true because meat can, is, and was preserved. It is also not true because unfermented wine could, and very often was, preserved in that state. To use your argument, one could also say all wine is… Read more »
Dave, Most of the quotes given above come from primary sources. Who best to understand the meaning of wine 2,000 years ago than the very people who wrote and spoke the language? Ancient Wine and the Bible gives many more ancient quotes to support this view. Josephus called the just pressed grape juice of Genesis 40:11 “wine,” and later called it the “fruit of the vine.” One ancient writer said, “Squeeze the grape, let out the wine.” The list goes on. Most who put together dictionaries (lexicons) and encyclopedias rely heavily on earlier lexicons than doing their own original research.… Read more »
Hey Dave,
The vocal abstentionists on this blog are not abstentionists at all but “prohibitionists” dedicated to prohibiting everyone from not being an abstentionist. Where is the historical “priesthood of the believer”? Has the SBC become…..horror of horrors….a…denomination? No more free thinking baptists?
The Orthodox wiki has some info about Clement of Alexandria:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Clement_of_Alexandria
I would recommend, if you read this, checking many other resources, also.
I don’t have a problem using grape juice for the LS. If wine was used I would take it, even though I don’t drink. The quarter oz thimbles we use for communion couldn’t inebriate a medium sized shrew. That said, the weight of biblical scholarship seems to be heavily on the side of moderationism. Much of what is being argued here seems circular. One argument I see time and time again, though not in this particular post, is that the ancients didn’t have distillation technology and therefore could not have made wine as potent as what is available today. It… Read more »
But imagine the havoc an inebriated medium sized shrew would wreak upon society.
(That’s not a comment on the harmful effects of alcoholism or drunkenness…that’s simply a comment on me envisioning a drunken shrew)
We had a shrew attend our church service in Taiwan when I was in high school. It created quite a stir, but I think he was stone cold sober.
Is a shrew kind of like a weasel?
It’s a rat.
We just ditched our satellite service and got a Roku box. A great thing for people who like old, black and white stuff, especially B movies. A few nights ago I watched a few minutes of The Killer Shrews. If they were drunk, they were mean drunks.
Shrews aren’t evil like rats, unless they are giant drunken killer shrews.
We got a roku too! It’s pretty cool.
“giant drunken killer shrews.”
That might make a good D movie.
Perhaps we can suggest that to the good folks at Sherwood Pictrues
It is not….it’s an ill tempered woman…..don’t you remember Elizabeth Taylor in “Taming of the Shrew”? 😉
Some of these reasons are at least laughable, if not worse, others are poignant and worthy of consideration. To say what has been said many a time before, it’s not the alcohol that’s the problem–it’s the person is has no self-control. And, Scripture ought not be used to demonize alcohol–the case just isn’t there.
Man, I was hoping to read “Why We Don’t Use Water for Baptism.” 🙂 I’m not sure this post offers many arguments for it’s premise. 1. Unargued assertion, plus an argument from silence. If Scripture never says to you use alcohol then it must never say not to and it is assumed (according to the post) that “cup” or “fruit of the vine” mean grape juice. 2. Is this all alcohol period regardless of the amount? Are there zero health benefits? This points seems to allude to one being drunk which is a red-herring since the topic is the Lord’s… Read more »
also, could a woman give her baby FAS from drinking fermented wine at the Lord’s Supper? I’m just asking. I’ve always heard from the experts that a woman can give her child FAS from just one drink of alcohol…even before she ever knows that she’s pregnant.
What about it?
If that’s true, then there’s another reason to not serve fermented wine at the LS?
David
David,
From a WebMD article,
“The most convincing link between alcohol intake during pregnancy and the development of fetal alcohol syndrome (a collection of symptoms that can lead to severe learning and social disabilities) relates to binge drinking during pregnancy — high alcohol intake on more than one occasion.”
Communion wine poses no risk according to health experts I’ve read.
I’ve never taken communion at a church that served wine, but it is my understanding that those who do often also provide juice for those who don’t want wine.
“No amount of alcohol is safe to drink during pregnancy.”
-Centers for Disease Control; 2010.
The CDC also says that every single female child (they also are saying males too now) should get a HPV vaccination regardless of if they intend on being sexually active. Be careful on who you cite as sources.
Let me also add that I severely doubt that the CDC even considered the idea of communion wine in this statement. I am sorry but one ounce of wine 9 times (assuming a once a month LS, 38 times if you do once a week), over the course of a pregnancy is NOT going to harm the child.
You can prove it either way about whether the Jews used fermented or unfermented wine in Passover. There are Jewish statements that confirm either. Another consideration – when have the Jews ever strictly followed the commandments of the Lord? Ever read the Old Testament? In that sense, they are a lot like Baptists. Some make dogmatic, yet incorrect, pronouncements about wine. A number of ancient writers, including Aristotle, talked of how sweet wine would not intoxicate. Yes, you can make alcoholic wine sweet, but the general understanding of ancient sweet wine was that it was what we’d call grape juice… Read more »
I am going to go with the assumption that you have never tasted wine before. As such, you don’t know the difference in taste between Red and White wines. While my consumption of wine has been very little due to my submission to the SBC position that pastors (and future pastors) should not drink alcohol, I do have the personal experience to tell you that the reason I prefer(ed) white wine was that it was sweeter than red wine. Now, it should be obvious (though I take nothing for granted) that the Greeks and Romans produced both red and white… Read more »
David, what I’m wondering is if you could point me to some of those sources that back up what you are saying. Are the actual historical sources in your book (I could buy that) – or, you could do the hard work (which I always prefer) and link to those. But you make statements here that may be true, but every resource I’ve looked at in my Logos Platinum basically says that all the words for wine refer to fermented wine – of varying strengths perhaps. Since every Christian resource I’ve looked at says the same thing, I am wondering… Read more »
Dave,
Send me your mailing address (and maybe your dad’s :-)). I’ll send you some information.
David R. Brumbelow
nsbc77562@LWOL.com
Not trying to be pedantic here, but I’d love to see the citation of sources, particularly the Aristotle reference. I’m a philosophy graduate student who is now studying Aristotle for a class, and I’ve yet to come across this reference.
Matt, You may be interested in these quotes and the references. Finding these and similar quotes should be relatively easy in a book or website of Aristotle. “Sweet wine does give off fumes, for it contains fat and behaves like oil. It does not solidify under the influence of cold and it is apt to burn. Really it is not wine at all in spite of its name: for it does not taste like wine and consequently does not inebriate as ordinary wine does. It contains but little fumigable stuff and consequently is inflammable.” -Aristotle; Meteorology, Book IV; c. 350… Read more »
Thanks! No wonder I’ve never come across this quote before, I’ve never read this book.
Matt,
You’re welcome.
In the interest of furthering your studies, you need to read all of Aristotle’s writings :-).
And there are a lot of them!
David R. Brumbelow
Once again my exalted cousin does a poor job at twisting scripture to meet his presuppositions. He and I have had this conversation before but to go down point by point: 1. Incorrect, Pesach has always been celebrated with Wine, The Lord’s supper took place during a celebration of Pesach and therefore had wine. Further before the advent of pasteurization it was simply impossible for grape juice to exist outside of a grape and not have begun fermentation. The yeast is present even on the outside of the grape so once the skin is broken fermentation will begin. 2. False.… Read more »
Interesting tidbit from Welch’s corporate website:
Note that I don’t drink. I don’t drink because I used to drink way too much. Having said that, I have never been convinced exegetically from the text of Scripture that the use of beverage alcohol is forbidden. Clearly, drunkenness is forbidden, and none here seem to be advocating drunkenness.
Squirrel
Cousin R. K. Brumbelow, We meet again. Hope you are doing well. 1. It is dangerous to say all Jews of all time have done anything. My book gives documented, significant examples of Jews (but certainly not all Jews) saying they use unfermented wine. You said, “Further before the advent of pasteurization it was simply impossible for grape juice to exist outside of a grape and not have begun fermentation. The yeast is present even on the outside of the grape so once the skin is broken fermentation will begin.” Using that argument you could also say all beef is… Read more »
Do not make the mistake of assuming all the wine of the ancients was just like the wine of today. It wasn’t. At least not all of it. Here’s some quotes from ancient non-abstainers, and one modern non-abstainer. “Sweet wine does give off fumes, for it contains fat and behaves like oil. It does not solidify under the influence of cold and it is apt to burn. Really it is not wine at all in spite of its name: for it does not taste like wine and consequently does not inebriate as ordinary wine does.” -Aristotle “Wine which you wish… Read more »
Actually, according to your quote, Aristotle merely said it doesn’t inebriate like ordinary wine. That doesn’t mean it didn’t inebriate at all, just that it didn’t do so in the same way. Unless of course you are asserting that Aristotle and Pliny disagree here?
Professor,
Why not do the research on the type of wine that caused the fall of the Roman Empire? The wine was aged in lead vessels and caused lead poisioning. I think that you would find that it was that type of wine that the ancients warned of.
Yes, the ancient Romans used lead vessels and this would certainly cause lead poisoning. But they had no knowledge or understanding of lead poisoning, so could not warn of it. Pliny and others did warn against drunkenness.
David R. Brumbelow
Actually you will find that the Romans preferred the lead aged wine as it had greater intoxicating effects due to the lead in their brains.
I do believe the Prophet Isaiah was referring to the body and blood of the Lord Jesus when he wrote this. This is an Old Testament glimpse into the Lord’s Supper! I love this feast! “The Sinner’s Feast” is what I call this passage when I preach it. Isaiah 25:6-9 (ESV) [6] On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined. [7] And he will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples,… Read more »
As to Isaiah 25:6 Interestingly, the word used in the original Hebrew is not wine, but a word that means preserved things (and you can, or not, translate that as wine). See Young’s Literal Translation. It should also be restated that unfermented wine could be preserved, just as they could preserve fermented wine. You could also have either on the lees. So this verse really proves nothing on either side about the subject of abstaining from beverage alcohol. Perhaps this verse should also be considered with Isaiah: Matthew 26:29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this… Read more »
The study, which found no evidence of harm from having a couple drinks a week during pregnancy, was so well done and its findings so conclusive that it ought to become the final word in the field, said Fred Bookstein, an applied statistician who studies fetal alcohol spectrum disorders at both the University of Washington, Seattle, and the University of Vienna. “This is such a good study that it should shut down this line of research,” said Boostein, who plans to refer people to the paper when they ask him about drinking during pregnancy, and hopes that research dollars can… Read more »
Nice. Sounds like a deal closer to me.
Mark, Bookstein also stated, “I tell my daughters not to worry about a drink a day, but don’t ever get drunk and be aware that after the second drink, you’re not going to be able to count.” He goes on to state, “There’s just no evidence that a drink a day is causing any damage.” Notice he stated that “after the second drink, you’re not going to be able to count.” Therein lies a major problem for Americans. We do not simple have one drink of anything. FAS is a terrible thing in the life of a child. Secondly, he… Read more »
CB,
Great comments.
David R. Brumbelow
You’re not going to give your child FAS by taking communion whether it’s once a month or once a week. A woman can probably have the occasional glass of wine during pregnancy as all these studies suggest. As the father of a 3 month old whose wife breastfeeds, I’m not sure why anyone would chance it. Drink something else. Now, as to caffeine, that can be abused and can become quite dangerous as well. I’m convinced it’s a gateway drug for some in high-pressure vocations. Start out with expresso shots at university to pull an all-nighter – end up snorted… Read more »
BDW,
I use caffeine, but only in moderation :-).
Mostly Cherry Coke Zero and Diet Dr. Pepper. But I also use caffeine-free Diet Dr. Pepper so I don’t OD.
I’ve also found caffeine-free iced tea tastes just as good to me as that with caffeine.
David R. Brumbelow
Thanks David R. Brumbelow. Also, I think Big Daddy makes a very valid statement about the problems we, as a culture, have problems with any type of addictive substance. We are an abusive culture. We abuse relationships. We abuse various substances. Our particular culture ruins the institution of marriage with relationship abuse leading to divorce and hurting children. Our same culture abuses various substances, beverage alcohol being one of them, prescription drugs being another, the list continues as we all know. And yes, we abuse food intake. 1 of 6 adults are binge drinkers. 80,000 deaths occur from binge drinking… Read more »
I can heartily agree to this. I love America, but there’s no question that we are over-consumptive in nearly everything. To Americans, more is always better, quantity is always better than quality.
Should we serve wine at the Lord’s table? No, because it is gross. 🙂
Seriously guys, for the interest of Christian unity let’s just serve grape juice. Yeah, you have the freedom to drink. But be mindful of your brother who may stumble because you exercise such freedom. Is beer/wine/whiskey worth your brother stumbling? Is it a hill worth dieing on? I’ve made up my mind. The Lord’s table is a place where we remember reconciling, I won’t pollute it with silly arguements that only serve to divide.
It is ironic that the “place” or perhaps I should “ordinance” which is to be a picture of our unity not only with Christ but with one another has caused a good amount of dissension. Not only today but even during the Reformation.
I tend to agree with you reformedsteve.
The real question is, Who is stumbling? I think we too readily define “stumble” as “be offended.”
Though I have no issue with going grape on this issue.
For me personally alcohol is not something worth either offending my brothers and sisters in Christ. Nor is it something worth causing someone else to “stumble” in a 1 Corinthians type of way. But I don’t enjoy beer, whiskey, wine, or anything else like that. So for me to feel the full weight of this discussion I’d have to change it to something that I do thoroughly enjoy like baseball. And I suppose if I were in a community that legitimately was offended or people somehow stumbled because of my love for baseball–I’d like to think I’d readily give it… Read more »
So our unity today should be out of step with what was practiced in the 2nd Century? Because Clement of Alexandria clearly speaks of using alcoholic wine for the Lord’s supper. One could also take your argument and say that for the sake of “unity” no baptist should be a Calvinist. That for the sake of “unity” only piano and organ should ever be allowed during services. Or for the sake of “unity” any woman who does not bring a casserole to Wednesday meals should be kicked out of the church.
what kind of casserole? That’s huge. I’d argue that if it’s something like green-bean casserole then she should be kicked out of church for bringing such an abomination.
Mike Leake is the man.
reformed steve, Someone earlier mentioned that some churches have both wine cups and juice cups in the tray, clearly delineated. It is actually offensive to me that teetotalers set the parameters on this. Why do they get to deny me my freedom to have wine at communion? The whole stumble thing has been grossly misused to allow one camp on this adiaphora matter to dictate the rules. Can we not allow bot camps their freedom? One camp is free to use juice and one camp is free to use wine. Seems like a unifying way to go, unless the teetotalers… Read more »
Les,
While I certainly understand what you are saying and I agree that “the whole stumble thing has been grossly misused”, I also think it would be to our benefit to be more like Paul in this regard. So what if you are being “wronged” and your freedom is being denied? Shouldn’t you allow them to deny you your freedom?
Again I know this isn’t simple. See my D.A. Carson quote above…
Mike, I saw that Carson quote. That’s a good word, and if I was in a virtual teetotaler community I would heed his advice as well. But very few such communities exist, at least as far as I know. Uness you count SBC churches as such. But I would also teach on the subject to hopefully bring us all into a better understanding of what the scriptures teach. And I agree, it is not a simple thing. I remember visiting a young woman back in Tennessee (with my EE group). She had visited the church and one of the things… Read more »
People need to gently and patiently be disabused of their misunderstanding of scripture and the application of scripture.
Yep. And it’s that word “patient” that makes me think that those of us non-teetotalers may sometimes miss the mark. For me I have to always be careful that I’m not just making a theological argument but I am loving others to the point of self-forgetfulness.
Instruct we must. But that takes time and all the while we have to be really careful that we do not wound the consciences of weak brothers and sisters.
Mike, I rarely even have a conversation about this. It’s not an issue in most of my circles. I’m just here talking about it because David posted about it. But yes, patiently instruct the “weaker brother” as you said.
“Clearly Delineated”…ROFL…This reminds me of the first time I “partook” in alcohol, which just so happened to be during a communion service. It was at the funeral for my uncle who was a Lutheran Minister. I did not hear the Reverend when he said that the inner circle of the tray had grape juice for the youth and those who did not want alcohol. So obliviously, I grabbed from the outside rings (and wondered why the attendant gave me a weird look). After the service I said to my mom, “Mom that grape juice tasted funny”. To which she laughed… Read more »
“Clearly Delineated.” Well I guess not always so clearly.
@Les, who said “Why do they get to deny me my freedom to have wine at communion?” Because you show your love by submission. I would remind you brother that it is not your freedom, but Christ’s freedom. You didn’t win it. You didn’t purchase it. You have it only because of grace. Use it not for self, but for the building up of the Body. Neither side of this debate would say that it is unlawful to take communion with grape juice. If you press this issue, you deny others communion, because the juice-only folks will refuse the sacrament… Read more »
reformedsteve, I fully understand what you are saying. I don’t live my life agitated over this issue and actually attend a church where Welch’s is used. It never comes up. On this forum it came up so I expressed my view. I do think it is unfortunate that the weaker dictates on this issue. But we live and serve together and move on. Two things though. “I would remind you brother that it is not your freedom, but Christ’s freedom.” I have to disagree. he scriptures talk about OUR freedom in Christ. I realize He secured our freedom, but it… Read more »
Les,
Your second comment about a church serving both is absolutely correct. My arguement was based on my own human “wisdom” – a worse case.
As far as your first comment, I feel it more helpful if I get out of the way and let Scripture speak. Take a look at 1 Corinthians 6:12-20.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:12-20&version=NASB
reformed steve, I really don’t think we disagree. I love that passage. It’s beautiful. I was also thinking about several passages that refer to OUR freedom…which is obviously from Christ and in Christ. Yes, it is all about Him, but we don’t cease to be individuals created in Christ. “Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out OUR freedom that we have in Christ Jesus,” “For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use YOUR freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.” A passage very appropriate to… Read more »
Good passages, brother.
‘reformed’ steve, the issue is not unity, it is the fact that some, like David, are adding to the law.
Like.
Read my above comment, it addresses this.
Couple of missions notes. 1. I have led several mission trips to the UK. In every instance, in worship where the table was observed (evangelical churches) wine was used and the youth on our trip partook with the full knowledge beforehand of their parents. No one got drunk. Most of these teens had never tasted wine. We talked about it later and they mostly were amazed what the big deal was all about. 2. I do mission work in Haiti partnering with Baptist and non-denominational evangelical pastors. Most of these pastors enjoy Prestige (Haitian brewed beer) when we have meals… Read more »
Les,
I have many people in my community who need help with food and their electric bills, so I smoke weed. They smoke weed. And, I’d dare you to come here and tell these people and me to stop smoking weed and using heroin and snorting coke. That wont fly around here, Dude, because we’ve got bigger fish to fry around these parts….
Do you see how silly that arguement is?
David
PS. The above comment was saracasm. I do not use drugs, including the drug, alcohol.
David, actually your response is what is kind of silly. My point was these godly pastors enjoying a beer and they woud see our argument over that as silly.
Besides, last time I checked “smoking weed and using heroin and snorting coke” was against the law. Alcohol consumption is not illegal. Try another tack.
godly pastors enjoying weed and cocaine would see your arguement as silly. why shouldnt we enjoy weed and cocaine, or heroine? the Bible says nothing about them, and God made them. So, why shouldnt we make them legal and enjoy them….
David
David,
“godly pastors enjoying weed and cocaine would see your arguement as silly. why shouldnt we enjoy weed and cocaine, or heroine? the Bible says nothing about them, and God made them.”
David, are YOU smoking something with this line of reasoning? Really?
When weed and cocaine and heroin become legal, come back for an intelligent discussion on the propriety of using those substances.
Are you really essentially saying that is something CAN cause death and destruction and heartache in families and be addictive that we should refrain from that something?
David,
I had a tyop in this last statement. It SHOULD have read,
“Are you really essentially saying that iIF something CAN cause death and destruction and heartache in families, and be addictive, that we should refrain from that something?”
Les’ point was that abstentionism is primarily a modern, distinctly American evangelical phenomenon. It is not a widespread issue outside the states.
The Jews were not teetotalers, the early Christians were not teetotalers, the church has not historically been teetotalers and the church is not primarily teetotaler now.
Abstaining is a good and worthy pursuit for anyone when wisdom and conscience guide them in that direction. It is not a Christian Law. It is not part of the moral Law of the OT. It isn’t a law anywhere except in fundamentalist Islam. Christians don’t need more laws.
Bill Mac and Les,
Are yall for making smoking weed legal? Are yall for smoking weed and using cocaine in moderation…for purely recreational purposes?
David
David (volfan), I really am puzzled why you keep bring weed and cocaine up in this conversation. I’ll repeat: marijuana and cocaine are illegal, except marijuana in some locations for medicinal purposes (at least I think I’ve read that). Some may know the laws in the US better than I. As to whether I am for making “weed” legal, I think that states should be free to police marijuana as they police alcohol sales and consumption (at least they have laws on alcohol). As to whether a Christian should consume marijuana…I believe a Christian is free to do whatever is… Read more »
David: With respect, but the weed and cocaine arguments are always trotted out when the argument is being lost. The bible doesn’t address either. But is says plenty about alcohol. Nicotine is a dangerous and addictive substance whose delivery mechanism kills millions of people annually. In fact Southern Baptists have always been particularly devoted partakers of that particular deadly and addictive “weed”. But it is legal, and the bible doesn’t speak to it, so it isn’t really relevant.
I’ll say it again: Christians don’t need more laws.
Hi DAVID BRUMBALOW,
I do recommend that you make an appointment and go to see a rabbi and talk about the way that the Passover meal is celebrated, and what it represents.
I think it may give you an added dimension into the Lord’s Supper that you missing, from what I can see in your post.
I know it will help you.
I do respect your stand, but there are some things about the Passover meal celebration that you might want to know about.
Christiane, I agree that it is helpful to any to attend a Passover meal whether it is done by Christians or Jews. I’d recommend anyone to do so. As previously stated, it is a fact that some Jews use fermented wine for Passover, some Jews use unfermented wine for Passover. So in effect, you can document and prove your view either way. My book has several quotes from Jewish sources along these lines. By the way, I’ve heard some say Jews always use fermented wine for Passover. I’ve heard some say Jews always use unfermented wine for Passover. Both are… Read more »
Hi DAVID,
The wine used for Passover meals is ‘kosher’ . . ..
I do hope you have an opportunity to converse with a Conservative Jewish rabbi concerning the meaning of Passover in their faith, and how the ‘celebration’ of that event is done, and why certain things are done. I do think it would add something to your present understanding.
Thanks for responding, David.
Very interesting conversation taking place here…
Everyone’s new year resolutions must still be in affect, usually by 80 comments we’ve just retreated into our corners and hurl insults at each other.
I enjoyed this post and the subsequent commentary.
Despite the fact that I do disagree with total abstinence, I applaud David Brumbelow’s efforts with this article.
Thanks Bill.
David R. Brumbelow
Check out this article: Wine in the Ancient World by R.A. Baker, Ph.D., Ecclesiastical History. There is also an online version, but the pdf linked has the footnotes. An excerpt. My concern as an historian is to approach and present the evidence of antiquity with accuracy; this article is a response to some presentations which have failed to do this. It is an unfortunate fact that incorrect information regarding wine in the ancient world continues to be repeated. The data which is incorrectly presented, and which I want to address here, comes from non-Christian ancient writers including Pliny the Elder… Read more »
How many gallons of wine did Jesus make for the wedding party at Cana?
a) 5 gallons
b) 25 gallons
c) 160-180 gallons
c. Jesus gave the wedding party at Cana between 160 and 180 gallons of the best wine thay had ever tasted.
Any gift of God can be abused. I guess that is why we need a Savior.
.
Do you think anyone got pulled over for driving camels under the influence? Just wondering.
which is a very good point to make….the Bible says that all the guests were “well drunk.” So, if you believe that all wine in the Bible was fermented, then was the wedding party smashed? gassed? tipsy? AND, that Jesus made them more wine to get more drunk on? I mean, are you attributing drunkeness to Jesus? that He was some kind of a bartender for a drunken party? If you hold to the fermented wine is okay to drink view, and you really believe that Jesus turned this water into fermented wine; then you have got bigger problems than… Read more »
Your hermeneutical reading boarders on eisegesis at best. First off, it does not say “new” wine, it says “good wine”. And the head waiter says that after the guests drink the “good” wine first, then they are to serve the “poor” wine, because the people are too drunk to realize the difference. The point was that Jesus created the “good wine”, to which caused the waiter to get upset. Surely the waiter can tell the difference between “good wine” and this fabled “nonalcoholic grape juice” that you say existed Dave. For he uses the same words to describe the wine… Read more »
David,
You make an excellent point. If one “interprets” this as alcoholic wine, then Jesus went to a drunken party and made great qualities more of alcohol.
That doesn’t sound like the holy, sinless, Jesus Christ of Scripture.
This is even more evidence in favor of those scholars who believe Jesus made new, un-intoxicating wine (oinos) in John 2.
David R. Brumbelow
David B., I think these folks need to really rethink their position on alcohol and the Bible. Because, they are attributing a drunken party to Jesus, if they take the stand that they do. They’re calling Jesus nothing more than a glorified, bartender. He particiapted in a drunken, wedding party…according to the fermented wine crowd….AND made more fermented wine for the party crowd to get more drunk on! So, I guess they’re not only insinuating that Jesus was a bartender, but that He was not even a good one! Because, a good bartender would not allow his clients to keep… Read more »
Does it mean anything that these wedding feasts would often last for days?
Vol, Are you using John 2:1-11 for your scripture or Acts? If so, I think you are really stretching the limits of credulity. Perhaps we are using different versions of the Bible. This is the ESV John 2 The Wedding at Cana 1 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Jesus also was invited to the wedding with his disciples. 3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, Woman, what does this… Read more »
Katie,
I doubt that drinking freely means one glass. And, more than one glass is getting on the verge of being intoxicated….so, even if I accept your view that “drinking freely” or “well drunk” means only a couple of glasses of wine….then, you’d still be saying that Jesus was making them MORE! in order to get drunk…because, intoxication would surely be taking place after a couple of glasses..would it not?
I know that I used to be pretty well lit after a couple of beers.
David
“New wine” does not necessarily mean unfermented wine. The apostles were accused of being drunk on new wine at pentecost.
In Acts 2:13 the disciples were “accused” by their enemies. they were mocked by their enemies.
That does not prove they were drunk, neither does it prove new wine was alcoholic.
As listed above, Aristotle said new wine, sweet wine would not intoxicate.
David R. Brumbelow
David: With respect, the context is clear and aristotle’s opinion doesn’t mean anything here. The crowd was mocking them because they thought they were drunk on new wine. It takes a lot of hermeneutical gymnastics to arrive at something other than the plain reading of the text.
We aren’t good stewards of anything that God gives us.
Those that can’t drink wine without overdoing it, should not.
Many of us just plain eat too much, also. Gluttony is also a sin. I’m guilty of that one.
But I am so thankful that our Lord died for the ungodly (that’s me).
I will add 2 cents worth. Fermentation has been accomplished, when the grape juice has become wine as we know it. Leaven is present in the grape juice until the process of fermentation takes place. Thus, to drink grape juice is to drink that which symbolizes the presence of evil. Fermentation having taken place, the leaven is gone. The Jew in the passover feast (which involves wine – not grape juice) can identify which cup in the observance Jesus used to Introduce the Lord’s Supper. Having said the proceeding, I do not wish to be taken as an approver of… Read more »
Dr. James,
Great point. The yeast is only gone from wine once it becomes alcoholic because (as David knows) alcohol is poison to yeast. So, to answer the question in point 2, “Why use [alcohol] to represent the precious, pure, redeeming blood of Jesus?,” it is because the alcohol–like the blood of Christ–cleanses impurities. Seriously, if you don’t think the symbolism here is important you have missed the boat on all of Judaism and the Old Testament scriptures.
No fair! I made this point about a million comments ago.
The question has been asked whether my book has more information along these lines.
Yes, “Ancient Wine and the Bible: The Case for Abstinence” has much more detailed, documented information on these issues. It is available at amazon.com or at gulfcoastpastor.blogspot.com.
That the ancients knew how to easily preserve unfermented wine or grape juice is not a theory, it is a fact. You can see some of that information at:
Preserving Unfermented Wine in Bible Times
http://gulfcoastpastor.blogspot.com/2010/10/preserving-unfermented-wine-in-bible.html
And much more on this is in the book.
David R. Brumbelow
We use Welches, because it’s cheaper than wine and I can’t transubstantiate anything else.
That’s such a con, Dan. 😉
LOL, thank you, good night!
I can also transubstantiate cold medicine, but it has to be cherry. It has alcohol in it, is it evil too?
Nyquil is the official Baptist Booze.
David 🙂
LOL, like for real lol.
Abstentionists like to make the Cana wedding out to be some type of hedonistic binge-fest, with drunken sots laying around and people puking around every column, like the 1st century Jewish equivalent of a week long frat-party. Why would Jesus attend such a gathering?
Another weak point in the abstentionist argument is that alcohol is the by-product of fermentation, which they suggest is synonymous with rotting or decay, and therefore the product should be avoided. Weak, bad science, bad logic.
Remember the booze troll? Some of the comments remind me of Dave’s recent troll post. The Booze Troll – again, some of them are complete teetotallers and some of them are infrequent imbibers. But the Booze trolls twist posts into an argument over whether it is okay for Christians to sip a little wine now and again. Maybe we need the “equivocation troll” or the “motive troll” for those folks who seem to like to stir things up and add nothing but frustration to the conversation. For the folks that assign ill motives to others regardless of the explanation given.… Read more »
I don’t need to drink, SBC Voices is my drug of choice.
Bravo. A gold star for Dan.
Dave Miller,
Thanks for posting my article. Stay warm up there and have a great day.
David R. Brumbelow
It’s brutal up here today and tomorrow is meant to be worse. The high in wind chill tomorrow will not reach zero. I’ve worn my winter coat once or twice all year. Tomorrow, it’s back in use.
Dave, I have some very dear friends in Storm Lake. He is a pastor there. He describes the winters and just hearing it makes me shiver. But, he promises some pheasant hunting next fall!
Storm Lake isn’t far from here. Winter’s been amazing this year, but it’s turning nasty now. Yeah, its not that unusual for us to go 20 below with wind chills must below that. But yesterday it was 62. I’m enjoying global warming so much I’ve started using flourocarbons!
An interesting article, Winemaking in Ancient Israel By Garrett Peck. In the early nineteenth century, the evangelical Protestants who started the temperance movement in America argued that there were two kinds of wine in ancient Israel: fermented and unfermented. Because they chose to abstain from drinking, they made the unfounded claim that Jesus abstained as well. They did this to justify their political campaign to ban alcohol, which ultimately resulted in Prohibition (1920-1933). The temperance movement’s claim for two kinds of wine was neither archaeologically, biblically, historically, nor scientifically correct, as we’ll see in this article. The reality is that… Read more »
AMEN!!
Funny how all the sources for “non-alcoholic wine” go back to the temperance movement of the 1800s…
Squirrel and Jake Barker,
That’s why I always argue from biblical wisdom as a source. It goes all the way back to just after Noah got off the boat. 🙂
As I’ve said repeatedly, here and elsewhere, cb; nobody is arguing that the Bible doesn’t condemn drunkenness. I does. Often and repeatedly. The question is, “Was the wine served at Jesus’ Last Supper, which sets the stage/tone/background for all communion services down through church history to this present day, alcoholic wine?”
The preponderance of the evidence seems to be that it was.
So, now what?
Squirrel
So, Squirrel, are you saying that Jesus was a bartender? That He contributed to drunkeness at the Wedding in Cana?
David
David, let me ask you this: Is not God responsible for the creation of everything?
Sinners misuse God’s good creation constantly, do they (we!) not? God created the chemical/biochemical processes which produce all drugs and alcohol. Does God contribute to all drunkenness and drug abuse?
Ponder these things…
Squirrel
Squirrel,
If you will take notice, I have never made an argument based upon the wine used in the Bible being or not being alcoholic in nature.
My argument has always been based on the wisdom of the use of beverage alcohol in our culture.
cb, I am much more sympathetic to that argument! At least it isn’t based on rank eisegesis and bad historiography! 😀 The abuse of alcohol is a blight on our society. That is why, with the Scriptures, I heartily oppose the sin of drunkenness. But, like all sins, there seems to be a dichotomy between use and abuse. Sex has a legitimate use within a marriage. All use outside of marriage is the abuse of God’s gift of sex. Drugs have a legitimate use within medicine. So called “recreational” use is abuse of God’s gift. Why is it so hard… Read more »
Squirrel,
You said that recreational use of drugs is abuse. Alcohol is a drug.
David
Volfan,
“Alcohol is a drug.” So how much alcohol content, what percentage, is ok according to you for recreational use? The author of the post said,
“Fresh orange juice has a small amount of alcohol in it, but I’m all for orange juice.”
Vol fan, do you ever drink OJ? Is that ok for us Christians? I mean, it does have alcohol. Where do you draw the line for Christians? Where do think the fence should be?
Did the Ancient Israelites Drink Beer? By Michael M. Homan from Biblical Archaeology Review. Ancient Israelites, with the possible exception of a few teetotaling Nazirites and their moms, proudly drank beer—and lots of it. Men, women and even children of all social classes drank it. Its consumption in ancient Israel was encouraged, sanctioned and intimately linked with their religion. Even Yahweh, according to the Hebrew Bible, consumed at least half a hin of beer (approximately 2 liters, or a six-pack) per day through the cultic ritual of libation, and he drank even more on the Sabbath (Numbers 28:7–10). People who… Read more »
Mark,
Is this fella actually saying that Yahweh, God, drinks beer!!!!! Oh my goodness, where’d you dig up this nut. lol …does this fella tell us what brand God likes? Bud Lite, or Miller Lite…I mean, it would have to be a light beer…you know, the whole gluttony thing….lol. Wow.
And so, you are also saying that Jesus was a bartender at the wedding in Cana? that He contributed to drunkeness?
David
David,
I see that you have now asked at several people if they are saying that Jesus is a bartender. Hmmm. I searched the page here and the only person to use the bartender word is YOU. Six times I think.
Les,
Yes, I’m the only one using that word. Everyone else is running away from it. Because it brings out the truth of the matter too much.
David
“Everyone else is running away from it. Because it brings out the truth of the matter too much.”
Or is it possible that you are trying to draw out a false assumption? Possible? Maybe?
I didn’t run from the word, David. I just want to know what the difference is between God’s creation of alcoholic beverages through natural processes over time, and Jesus’ creation of alcoholic beverages in a miraculous event? How does one make Him more responsible than the other?
Squirrel
You are using the word ‘bartender’ improperly and apparently intentionally to make the scripture imply something it does not say. There is nothing in the example of the wedding at Cana that suggests anyone drank wine to excess, or that anyone became drunk with wine.
If you have to resort to such tactics to try to improve your argument, then you have lost the argument up-front.
About Bartender… I’ve read several Christian authors who are for social drinking who have said the people at the wedding at Cana were drunk. Some said just a little tipsy; some said out and out drunk. They have pointed out they had already drunk all the wine, and that would have been a lot. They also point out Jesus made over 120 gallons more of wine – that’s a lot. They also point out the master of the feast spoke of how commonly after people had “well drunk” (methuo – some, not all translate it as always intoxicated), they bring… Read more »
Wine is not distilled.
The process by which yeast converts sugar to alcohol is a process created by God. So using your deliberately inflammatory language, God has always been a “bartender” or “drugdealer” since He “makes” all these things. Really, it is when people resort to these kinds of arguments that you can see they are desperate to score points. There is nothing biblical about them. Make your biblical case and let people agree or disagree, but when you bring in the “drinking is the same as mainlining heroin” type language, constructive discussion is pretty much over.
Bill Mac,
I made that same point above:
&
So far, nobody wants to try to deal with it…
Squirrel
Let’s change the topic to cigar smoking. Surely, you do not think smoking a cigar is a sin? First, your taste buds are not in your lungs, their in your mouth. Second, the same taste buds that allow you to enjoy that chocolate you indulge in, are the same taste buds that allow you to enjoy a tasty Dominican stick. Yes?
I think Jesus would had been a cigar aficionado.
Any thoughts?
Smoke gives me a headache.
Blow the smoke away from you and you will be fine. Trust me.
Are we incapable as believers of a civil discussion on an alcohol-related topic?
Yes Dave. Some of us can. Some of us have.
I agree with cb (SHOCK!), some have been civil, others have not. I hope my comments have fallen into the range of the former. cb’s certainly have, in my opinion, been civil, even though we are on opposite sides of this issue.
Squirrel
You say that, “There are no harmful side effects of unfermented wine.”
What about cavities?
Grape juice is extremely high in sugar. High sugar in diets puts people at risk for obesity related diseases and diabetes. The pancreas will often overcompensate for a high sugar load by overproducing insulin, which can in turn lower blood sugar to levels below normal, sometimes resulting in diabetic shock. People in diabetic shock are in a highly impaired state that is sometimes mistaken for alcohol inebriation.
Now that I know that grape juice can lead to diabetes I will abstain from grape juice and press and push till others abstain from grape juice as well. If they do not I will assume that they are not as holy as I am and do not love Jesus as much as I do.
Oops. Should teetotalers even drink OJ? Many people are surprised to learn that orange juice naturally contains a small amount of alcohol. The alcohol has not been added to the juice, but is produced by fermentation which occurs when yeasts or bacteria convert sugars into carbon dioxide and alcohol. There are many naturally-occurring yeasts on the orange peel, and some of them get into the juice when the orange is handled or squeezed. Paul Davis from the USDA Market Quality Research Division measured the amount of ethanol in citrus fruits at harvest (ethanol is the “drinking alcohol” – the main… Read more »
Vol, I am the daughter of a severe alcoholic. Really severe. It was so bad that it eventually killed him. He experienced alcoholic psychosis, paranoia and all the things that go with that. Despite that, I cannot agree with you about alcohol. The Bible does not forbid the use of alcohol. Many people can drink moderately and never have a problem. I personally do not drink because I believe there is a likely genetic link within families. I’m not taking any chances. Cardiologists have said repeatly that moderate use of alcohol is actually good for the circulatory system. And… there… Read more »
Katie, I’m saying that it’s foolish, according to Proverbs, to drink alcohol for recreational purposes. It’s sinful to get drunk on it. It’s not wise to drink something that you know can get a hold on your life. It can bite you like a poisonous snake. A person shouldnt play around with fire. I dont think that its sinful to drink alcohol, otherwise we couldnt drink Baptist Booze(Nyquil), when we’re sick….couldnt cook with it…etc. But, to just drink an intoxicating drink that could do as much damage as alcohol can do is foolish…very, very foolish. I believe that Proverbs teaches… Read more »
I think the primary points and best points for abstention, are the “slippery slope” issue, and alcohol’s societal association with a worldly lifestyle. I think those ideas are the basis for the scriptural warnings against it’s recreational use.
The Lord’s supper use seems settled to me. If the bread is to be unleavened, so is the drink.
Jeff,
Good points. I agree.
David R. Brumbelow
Two questions for clarification: 1)If one of the “best points for abstention” is “alcohol’s societal association with worldly things,” what if there are places in the world and even in our country where alcohol is not associated with worldliness any more than watching TV or going to sporting events? Is the propriety of alcohol consumption then based on the immediate culture and their attitude toward alcohol? 2)If the assertion that unleavened grape juice is actually alcoholic wine (where all the leaven is used up in the fermentation process) is accurate, would you then advocate not only the option of using… Read more »
Just wanted to say that your second point is curious, because if all the leaven is “used up” in fermented wine couldn’t the same thing be said of leavened bread?
Having said that I personally have no problem one way or the other with wine or unferemented grape juice since the Bible doesn’t command one way or the other in respect to the Lord’s Supper.
I was referring to the claim made by Dr. James Willingham earlier (Jan. 11, 12:08 am – comment 147): “I will add 2 cents worth. Fermentation has been accomplished, when the grape juice has become wine as we know it. Leaven is present in the grape juice until the process of fermentation takes place. Thus, to drink grape juice is to drink that which symbolizes the presence of evil. Fermentation having taken place, the leaven is gone. The Jew in the passover feast (which involves wine – not grape juice) can identify which cup in the observance Jesus used to… Read more »
John Wylie,
You said, “because if all the leaven is ‘used up’ in fermented wine couldn’t the same thing be said of leavened bread?
An excellent point.
Using this argument in favor of fermented wine for the Lord’s Supper would void all reason to use unleavened bread for Passover or the Lord’s Supper.
David R. Brumbelow
There is no mandate to use unleavened bread in the LS. I daresay Baptist churches all over the world use leavened bread in the LS.
This is probably a hornets nest that I do not want to kick over, so maybe I can gently lay it on it’s side. All cultures and cultural issues are subject the holiness spoken of in the Word. When I speak of something being “associated with worldliness”, I am applying “worldliness against the standard of the Word” and not according to the variations of the culture. Whatever the culture, fornication, is unacceptable to the Word. Whatever the culture, cursing, swearing, and foul langauge is mutually exclusive from a holy life. That being said, “The obviously wrong side” of recreational alcohol,… Read more »
Is it possible you intended this comment for a different post? Just wondering.
Dave, I think Jeff’s comment was in response to my comment on his comment about alcohol’s societal association with worldliness.
Jeff, I understand your reasoning and absolutely agree that truth is truth regardless of culture and that morality transcends societal standards. But you are still working from the assumption that any amount of beverage alcohol is worldly, sinful (I’m assuming), and contrary to holiness. You can believe that if you want, but you need to make the case rather than simply stating it as fact.
Congratulations Rev. Brumbelow on joining the “200 Club”!
Rev. Miller,
Thanks. Never been there before.
David R. Brumbelow
The arguments for grape juice don’t carry much weight due to the fact that Baptists prior to the abstinence movement used wine (and I mean alcoholic wine). In fact as late as the last 10 years, there were members of the Seniors class who remembered the person who was appointed to secure the wine for communion. On the other hand, church discipline was exercised in those days. I think we all need to take a careful view of the use of wine. I was in a Mexican Restaurant earlier this week, and I saw a fellow with a big beer… Read more »
Bro. Woodbury, My apologies for not being clearer. My primary point concerning the “worldliness” issue was in relation to the “obviously wrong side of recreational alcohol – meaning abuse.” That was not intended as a sweeping statement of fact with no basis. Alcoholism in any culture is contrary to scripture, to which we obviously agree. But alcoholism, revelry, and the issues discussed in (1st Peter 4:3-4; Galatians 5:21, Isaiah 5:22) are a foundation for the “slippery slope” discussion. Which is all that I was intending to state. I do believe that abstinence is the Biblical standard. But not merely because… Read more »
Jeff,
Thanks so much for clarifying. I understand much better now where you are coming from. I, too, have enjoyed the conversation. Though we come to different conclusions regarding the use of alcohol in general and in the Lord’s Supper, I have been challenged and sharpened by our exchange. God’s blessings on you, brother.
Earlier CB Scott said,
“It seems that somewhere in this argument that wisdom is always called upon to take a back seat while we argue the pro and con of biblical prohibition, yet, we ignore the wisdom mandates easily gleaned from both the OT and the NT.”
I believe the Bible directly condemns beverage alcohol.
However, I certainly also agree with the “wisdom principle” that leads people to abstain from alcohol.
So for the record, I’m not arguing one against the other. I believe in both.
David R. Brumbelow
I don’t have the time or patience to read this entire thread….but from what I have read, and in regard to the author, it saddens me to see so many “Christians” judging everyone. Jesus himself said he did not come to judge but to save the world. Yet so many times the most judgmental people are those filling the pews each Sunday. To the author and those bashing wine I have one quote from the Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 5:23 “No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.” I… Read more »
I don’t have the time or patience to read this entire thread….but from what I have read, and in regard to the author, it saddens me to see so many “Christians” judging everyone.”
Well Guy,
It is quite obvious from your comment that you should have taken the “time” and had the “patience” to read the post and the whole comment thread.
But you did not, yet you did take the “time” and exercised the “patience” as a “Christian” to judge “everyone” in the thread along with the author of the post. Amazing.
“I don’t have the time or patience to read this entire thread….but from what I have read, and in regard to the author, it saddens me to see so many “Christians” judging everyone.”
This may be one of the things that is wrong with blogging. We do not take the time to read and understand, we just judge others without taking that time.
And, Guy, are you not judging everyone here?
No Dave I’m not in fact “judging everyone here” or anyone here for that matter. I came across this blog while researching a passage. After reading halfway through the first section of comments, I felt the desire to share my thoughts and biblical references which I outlined and stated. I did not condemn, judge, or bash anyone or anything. My quoting or Romans 14 was a clear and purposefully stated to remind us ALL that we shouldn’t waste time quarreling over things such as this. Again, so sorry to offend whoever was offended. It was not the intent, which was… Read more »
For the record, I’m not a prohibitionist. But the disconnect between “I didn’t read the comments” and then to call everyone to account struck me as inconsistent.
I’m not offended, just thought it was a little bit inconsistent.
Thank you Dave. I wish I had chose those words better. I DID in fact read most all responses as well as the original article. My response was directed to the author of the article as well as mainly to those stating that the only use of alcohol was “to get high”. I have just recently finished a study of Romans 14 and when I came across this, I felt the Lord wanted me to share this. I am not a Baptist minister, and of another denomination, and my apologies again if this is a “Baptist” only site. The main… Read more »
So sorry to offend you all. Not the purpose whatsoever. And I wasn’t referring to EVERYONE, just as I pointed out. To the people that were bashing alcohol and making judgements. That’s it. No offense intended folks. I was being sincere.
“I felt the Lord wanted me to share this.” So Guy, This one is on God? Well, I guess that just settles it. God told you to do it so that makes you just the messenger and off the hook for your rude behavior and judgmental spirit, right? Oh yeah, I almost forgot. You were also “being sincere.” Well those are the Big Two: 1). God told me and 2). I am sincere. Can’t argue with either of those and when used together a fellow’s word becomes completely inerrant, right? Well, here is my opinion. God didn’t tell you anything.… Read more »
Guy, I’m the author of the article. You’re welcome to agree or disagree. But I wrote it out of deep conviction that I sincerely believe is from Scripture. You mention overeating. The Bible condemns gluttony, but many seem to misunderstand the meaning. Just being overweight is not what the Bible means as gluttony. The Holman Bible Dictionary says: “Glutton – One habitually given to greedy and voracious eating; associated with stubbornness, rebellion, disobedience, drunkenness, and wastefulness (Deuteronomy 21:20). A more general meaning for the Hebrew term as a ‘good-for-nothing’ (Proverbs 28:7, TEV) is reflected in some translations: ‘wastrel’ (Deuteronomy 21:20… Read more »
Hi David and thank you for an honest and non-confrontational reply. I never meant to spark or stir up so many emotions in my response. I am familiar with gluttony and the scriptural references to it. I wasn’t referring to merely eating a second helping at the buffet from time to time. I for one have known people close to me that have struggled with eating habits and addictions that were similar to chemical addictions. They abused food as it temporarily comforted them and as you know, just caused them to get worse and worse. My reference was to shed… Read more »
I’m sorry you were so offended Pastor Scott. And I’m not sure how any of it came across as rude and judgmental. I was in fact being sincere. Everything I said came from the heart as I felt moved by the Holy Spirit. Everything I said was meant to be reflected upon and for the reader to draw their own conclusion. I thought the biblical passages I referenced were of great relevance and help to this topic. However, all you seem to have done is mock what I wrote, and responded with bitterness and hatefulness and calling me a “skeleton… Read more »
Guy,
Giving me the last word is fine with me. So let me state, in order to be perfectly clear, about my comments to you relating to your false piety and you blaming God for your self-righteous comments, I meant ever word and still do.
Since Baptists, apparently based on all the records and histories I have had the privilege of reading, used wine in the Lord’s Supper until the Abstinence movement and, as I mentioned above, that members of one Senior class remember even the gentleman who years before had been appointed to secure the wine for the supper, it follows that we have changed the elements in the Supper. While I do not approve of drinking in a social since, due, for example, to the effect on drivers in our society, I do think we must obey the examples given by Holy Scripture.… Read more »
Dr. Willingham, You say “Since Baptists…used wine in the Lord’s Supper until the Abstinence movement…it follows that we have changed the elements in the Supper.” No, it does not follow. Ever considered the Baptists of 1800 were the ones who mistakenly changed the elements of the Lord’s Supper to alcohol? There are references to the early church using nonalcoholic wine for the Lord’s Supper. Sometimes they simply squeezed the grapes into the cup; and yes, they knew how to keep grapes fresh throughout the year. You say, “All of the mother churches of Southern Baptists of which I have knowledge… Read more »
The ancients could preserve grapes fresh and squeezable from the time of harvest to the next harvest? I wasn’t aware that such a techniques exists even today.
Bill Mac, Most do not know of this, but that in no way means it is untrue. Some grapes were known as good keepers. These were grapes that had a tough skin and adhered well to the cluster. Several varieties of modern grape varieties have these characteristics. The “Fruit Gardener” put out some of this information in a 1999 issue. Ancients would clip, not pull, any inferior grapes from the cluster. Pulling leaves a brush that attracts mold. They would hang the grapes from the ceiling, put them in a root cellar, or pack them in containers. Sometimes they dipped… Read more »
Dear Bro. Brumbelow: Your approach is that of advocacy which I fear will not be confused with the facts. I added what I found in historical research. Advocacy has a tendency to blind one to all facts to the contrary. I speak not of advocacy as a wrong, but of a problem with it. It is also a problem with our modern scientific approach; it is the paralysis of analysis. Your way of setting up to prove your point is that of advocacy with the problem of tending to blind one to all facts to the contrary. There is no… Read more »
Dr. Willingham,
I have presented a number of facts, which you seem to ignore.
You don’t seem to be willing to acknowledge that I have done several years of historical research on this issue.
Could you also be guilty of “advocacy”?
David R. Brumbelow
Was Unfermented Wine Commonly Used in Bible Times? This is a collection of quotes from a wide variety of standard reference works. They reveal a universal understanding that the “two-wine theory” that claims Biblical wine was often unfermented is without historical foundation. I did not find any reference work that supported the concept of unfermented wine. If anyone teaches that unfermented wine was commonly used in Bible times, his claim must be made in spite of the available scholarship, not because of it. The following quotes are the result of my research with minimal added comment. See list of sources… Read more »
Brother Brumbelow: Mark has provided a link to a site that provides an extended discussion of the matter of wine and unfermented juice int he Bible. My main contention has simply been to point out that our founding churches used wine in the communion. Your own relative takes issue with you and notes your rather one-sided approach. And, of course, I could be guilty of advocacy, but you will please note that I seek to be very careful about how I advocate the matter and I am no great supporter of social drinking, especially in view of the matter of… Read more »
Many authorities recognize that “wine” in the Bible and ancient times referred to both nonalcoholic and alcoholic wine. They recognize wine could be preserved in a nonalcoholic state. A few examples: Dr. John Kitto, D.D., F.S. A., was one of the most respected Bible scholars of the 1800s. He had lived in the Middle East and had an extensive knowledge of Bible times and customs. Charles H. Spurgeon highly praised Kitto’s scholarship. In Kitto’s Popular Cyclopedia he says, “No fewer than thirteen distinct Hebrew and Greek terms are rendered in our common version by the word ‘wine.’ Besides the pure… Read more »
I found this to be an interesting read on the subject. A doctoral thesis from the University of Sydney in their Semitic Studies department. What is informative, is the authors knowledge and experience not only in ancient Semitic studies and the Hebrew language, but his experience and knowledge in both agriculture and wine making. Also to David, you mention references to the early church using non alcoholic wine. What references are you referring to? Also, what references may I look up that proves they knew how to preserve grapes and maintain unfermented juice throughout the year in biblical times? Especially… Read more »
Sorry…i forgot to include the link to that thesis. Here it is:
http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/482/1/adt-NU20031211.15583702whole.pdf
I found this to be an interesting read on the subject. A doctoral thesis from the University of Sydney in their Semitic Studies department. What is informative, is the authors knowledge and experience not only in ancient Semitic studies and the Hebrew language, but his experience and knowledge in both agriculture and wine making. Also to David, you mention references to the early church using non alcoholic wine. What references are you referring to? Also, what references may I look up that proves they knew how to preserve grapes and maintain unfermented juice throughout the year in biblical times? Especially… Read more »
Jeff, The grape harvest actually lasted six months or more. Ancient writers refer to some varieties of grapes that produced two crops a year. They had numerous varieties of grapes. Some were early, some late, some were best after a frost. But they knew how to keep fresh grapes for up to a year. “For the early grapes, and the hybrids, the so-called black, ripen much earlier and so must be gathered sooner; and the part of the plantation and the vineyard which is sunnier should have its vines stripped first.” -Varro, c. 36 BC “Pepperine wine…where Varro said the… Read more »
The above quote should be:
“One may squeeze the juice of a bunch of grapes into a cup and say the “Kiddush.” -Jewish Encyclopedia.
Don’t know where the ? came from.
David R. Brumbelow
Sorry, I forgot to include the link to the thesis. Here it is:
http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/482/1/adt-NU20031211.15583702whole.pdf
Also, several sources (“Patrick McGovern is the Scientific Director of the Biomolecular Archaeology Laboratory for Cuisine, Fermented Beverages, and Health at the University of Pennsylvania Museum in Philadelphia, where he is also an Adjunct Professor of Anthropology. In the popular imagination, he is known as the “Indiana Jones of Ancient Ales, Wines, and Extreme Beverages.” and Dr. David Jordan and countless other viticulturists), state the grapes CAN and WILL ferment on the vine. And that animals would even seek these fermented grapes out to eat off of the vine for their effects. By the way, Dr. Lyman Abbott’s “doctorate” was… Read more »
Jeff,
You say,”Also in reference to the word Yayin, in Genesis 9:21 ‘yayin’ is what Noah drinks that makes him inebriated.”
No arguement. Yayin was used of alcoholic wine, it was also used of nonalcoholic wine (Isaiah 16:10).
Many similar English words are used today that can refer to either an alcoholic or nonalcoholic drink. Eggnog, Cider, Punch, Drink, Liquor.
I’ll be tied up for a while so may not have time to answer every one of your points. But anyone reading the main article and this long thread can see I’ve not been avoiding opposing comments.
David R. Brumbelow
Thank you, Jeff, for providing the info. re: the uses of the terms for wine and grape juice in the Bible. I was aware of the usage and welcome the sources you cited. Brother David, when it comes to issues as controversial as this, it is always advisable to be careful in what one asserts. It is also advisable to take a very careful look at the scholars cited: sometimes they have feet of clay. Just consider this fact: I was a member of the Mt. Pisgah Baptist church from 2004-2008. That church is the one from which came the… Read more »